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Title: John Paul II used belt to whip himself
Source: Times [ZA]
URL Source: http://www.timeslive.co.za/news/world/article278878.ece
Published: Jan 27, 2010
Author: Sapa
Post Date: 2010-01-26 18:32:19 by Prefrontal Vortex
Keywords: None
Views: 360
Comments: 25

John Paul II used belt to whip himself

Jan 27, 2010 12:04 AM | By Sapa-AP


Pope John Paul II whipped himself with a belt, even on vacation, and slept on the floor as acts of penitence and to bring him closer to Christian perfection, according to a new book by the Polish prelate spearheading his sainthood case.


The book "Why He's a Saint" also includes previously unpublished speeches and documents written by John Paul, including one 1989 signed memo in which he said he would resign if he became incapacitated.

The book also reported for the first time that John Paul forgave his would-be assassin in the ambulance on the way to the hospital moments after he was shot on May 13, 1981, in St. Peter's Square.

And it reported that he initially thought his attacker was a member of the Italian terrorist organization the Red Brigades.

The book was written by Monsignor Slawomir Oder, the postulator, or main promoter, for John Paul's canonization cause and was released Tuesday. It was based on the testimony of the 114 witnesses and boxes of documentation Oder gathered on John Paul's life to support the case.

At a news conference Tuesday, Oder defended John Paul's practice of self-mortification, which some faithful use to remind them of the suffering of Jesus on the cross.

"It's an instrument of Christian perfection," Oder said, responding to questions about how such a practice could be condoned considering Catholic teaching holds that the human body is a gift from God.

In the book, Oder wrote that John Paul frequently denied himself food -especially during the holy season of Lent - and "frequently spent the night on the bare floor," messing up his bed in the morning so he wouldn't draw attention to his act of penitence.

"But it wasn't limited to this. As some members of his close entourage in Poland and in the Vatican were able to hear with their own ears, John Paul flagellated himself. In his armoire, amid all the vestments and hanging on a hanger, was a belt which he used as a whip and which he always brought to Castel Gandolfo," the papal retreat where John Paul vacationed each summer.

While there had long been rumors that John Paul practiced self-mortification, the book provides the first confirmation and concludes John Paul did so as an example of his faith.

Pope Benedict XVI put John Paul on the fast-track for possible sainthood weeks after his April 2, 2005 death by waiving the customary five-year waiting period before the process can begin.

Last month, Benedict moved John Paul a step closer to possible beatification - the first major milestone in the process - by approving a decree on his "heroic virtues."

The Vatican must now confirm that a miracle attributed to John Paul's intercession occurred in order for him to be beatified - a step which many Vatican watchers have suggested may come as early as October.

Oder declined to speculate on any possible date, saying the miracle must still be confirmed.

The book publishes for the first time a never-delivered speech John Paul prepared for his weekly general audience Oct. 21, 1981, five months after the Turkish gunman, Ali Agca, shot him in St. Peter's Square.

Agca served a 19-year sentence in an Italian prison for shooting the pope, and earlier this month was released from a Turkish jail where he served a 10-year sentence for killing a Turkish journalist in 1979.

John Paul had publicly forgiven Agca on May 17, 1981 - four days after the assassination attempt. And he visited Agca in prison in 1983.

But five months after the attack, John Paul prepared a lengthy treatise on the power of forgiveness and the need for it in society, using his own experience as an example.

"The act of forgiveness is the first and fundamental condition so that we aren't divided and placed one against another like enemies," he wrote in what Oder called "an open letter" to Agca.

In the speech, he revealed that he while he had publicly forgiven Agca on May 17, "the possibility of pronouncing it before - in the ambulance that brought me from the Vatican to the Gemelli hospital where the first and decisive surgery was performed - I consider the fruit of a particular grace given to me by Jesus."

Oder speculates that John Paul decided against delivering the speech "out of prudence" for the ongoing criminal investigation into the shooting.

The book also reports for the first time that John Paul initially thought that the shooter had been a member of the Red Brigades, the radical leftist group that terrorized Italy in the 1970s and 80s. Some time before the shooting, the Italian secret service had reported to the Vatican a plot by the Red Brigades to kidnap the pope, the book said.

John Paul was apparently thinking of this when he told his secretary in the ambulance going to the hospital: "Just like Bachelet," an apparent reference to the assassination by the Red Brigades of the Catholic judge Vittorio Bachelet one year earlier, the book said.

The book also reports that John Paul first considered the possibility of resigning when he turned 75, the normal retirement age for bishops, going so far as to convene a group of close collaborators for an informal discussion on the topic.

He tasked then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, head of the Vatican's orthodoxy office and future Pope Benedict XVI, to study the theological and historic issues implied in having an "emeritus pope."

In the end, John Paul left the question up to "providence" - he never resigned.

But he did outline on two separate occasions the criteria for which he would do so.

In 1994, he wrote what appeared to be a speech to be delivered to cardinals in which said he intended to resign "in the case of an illness determined to be incurable and which impedes the (sufficient) exercise of the function of the petrine ministry."

In a memo signed and dated five years earlier, on Feb. 15, 1989, he similarly wrote that if he was unable to sufficiently do his job because of an incurable illness, he would "renounce my sacred and canonical office" and leave it up to the top cardinals to carry out his wishes.

John Paul suffered from Parkinson's disease for many years before he eventually died of septic shock and cardiocirculatory collapse, preceded by heart and kidney failure brought on by a urinary tract infection.

Prior to his death, John Paul had been in and out of the hospital for two months and, by the end, had lost the ability to speak.

The book goes on sale in Italy on Wednesday. The publisher Rizzoli said there were no immediate plans for translations.

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#1. To: Prefrontal Vortex (#0)

Pope John Paul II whipped himself with a belt, even on vacation, and slept on the floor as acts of penitence and to bring him closer to Christian perfection, according to a new book by the Polish prelate spearheading his sainthood case.

How does whipping oneself and sleeping on a floor bring someone "closer to christian perfection(!)" I'm far from perfection but no way would I whip myself or sleep on a floor if a bed was near. Maybe I need to start...

I'd like to have book, chapter and verse on this one.

Forgiving the man that shot him is a different story.


Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

PSUSA  posted on  2010-01-26   19:11:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Prefrontal Vortex, PSUSA, all (#0)

Whipping is a Catholic thing.

Been there, have the T-shirt.

"The Negro is indolent and a dreamer, spending his meager wage on frivolity and drink; the European has a tradition of work and saving."

-Che Guevara

Jethro Tull  posted on  2010-01-26   19:33:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: PSUSA (#1)

How does whipping oneself and sleeping on a floor bring someone "closer to christian perfection(!)"

I'd like to have book, chapter and verse on this one.

The book also states that John Paul "frequently denied himself food." Who knew?

I should confess that I'm not a John Paul for sainthood cheerleader. Imo, he did more to undermine the historic traditions of the Catholic Church, than anyone before him. Furthermore he turned a blind eye to the pederasty crimes committed by gay priests in the US Catholic churches. John Paul had the hubris to give Cardinal Law a "promotion" to a position in Rome after the Boston parishioners forced Law's resignation there. I think it's shameful that John Paul is being considered for sainthood, period, and fast-tracked at that.

scrapper2  posted on  2010-01-26   19:33:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: scrapper2 (#3)

John Paul had the hubris to give Cardinal Law a "promotion" to a position in Rome after the Boston parishioners forced Law's resignation there.

Was Law ever heard from again?

your_neighbor  posted on  2010-01-26   19:46:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Prefrontal Vortex (#0)

Sounds like he may have been a member of Opus Dei...

Corporal Mortification in Opus Dei


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-01-26   19:52:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Prefrontal Vortex (#0)

A sense of John Paul is that he was a true Christian - both of the Christian faith and of the Christian philosophy.

The world correctly saw him as a good person who was a man of Christ.

And they saw a Christian man who was not a weakling - they saw a strong practical man of the world - willing to take on evil.

He was a big plus for Christianity.

your_neighbor  posted on  2010-01-26   20:19:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: your_neighbor (#4) (Edited)

I think he's still the "arch priest" in charge of Papal Basilica of Saint Mary Major - the post that John Paul gave him after Law was forced to resign from his position in Boston. The more I think about John Paul the angrier I get. John Paul should not be granted sainthood. His name and memory should be pointedly ignored by the Vatican. Hopefully John Paul has received his just desserts in the Hereafter.

scrapper2  posted on  2010-01-26   20:20:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: your_neighbor (#6)

A sense of John Paul is that he was a true Christian - both of the Christian faith and of the Christian philosophy.

John Paul was elected to head one particular Christian denomination, the Catholic Church. If John Paul wanted to be an Everyman Christian, he should have declined being nominated to be Pope of the Catholic Church.

scrapper2  posted on  2010-01-26   20:27:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: scrapper2 (#7)

Hopefully John Paul has received his just desserts in the Hereafter.

I do not understand your anger???

your_neighbor  posted on  2010-01-26   20:40:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: scrapper2 (#3)

John Paul had the hubris to give Cardinal Law a "promotion" to a position in Rome after the Boston parishioners forced Law's resignation there.

I remember that. I'd love to know how that was justified. Or did they not even bother to justify it somehow?

You can say the same things about protestants. They are corrupt too.

IMO organized religions, no matter what they call themselves, are a curse. These things are so convoluted that there is no making sense of it. It's madness.


Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

PSUSA  posted on  2010-01-26   20:46:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: your_neighbor (#6)

And they saw a Christian man who was not a weakling - they saw a strong practical man of the world - willing to take on evil.

LOL! Get serious. John Paul not afraid to confront evil - that's a real thigh-slapper, that remark.

John Paul knew full well about the pederasty being committed by the Purple Palace in America and he DID NOTHING to stop it. These gay priests robbed adolescents of their innocence and John Paul with his silence in the face of evil aided and abetted evil to continue. Furthermore, John Paul "rewarded" the biggest cover-up artist in the US Catholic Church hierarchy.

Because of the gay pederasty scandal - which John Paul knowingly allowed to continue -the Catholic Church was almost brought to its knees - parishioners lost faith in the Catholic Church and left in droves. The US Catholic Church faced financial ruin.

If I didn't know John Paul was a Catholic, I'd have guessed that John Paul was anti-Catholic to the core - his actions as well as his well-thought out inaction almost represented a death knell for the oldest Christian Church known to man. The Catholic Church is only starting to recover slowly now from the papacy of John Paul. A pox on John Paul.

scrapper2  posted on  2010-01-26   20:48:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: PSUSA (#1)

How does whipping oneself and sleeping on a floor bring someone "closer to christian perfection(!)"

The age-old question asked by all you hell bound heretics! Repent, and loan me a fiver till tuesday.

In 2007, the FBI reported on concern about white supremacists recruiting soldiers, saying "hundreds" of neo-Nazis were in the active military. But in April, a Department of Homeland Security report on extremism that reiterated much the same point was widely criticized by veterans groups and some conservative politicians as being unpatriotic, leading the Justice Department to retract the DHS report.

Critics acknowledge that extremism in the Army is a touchy political subject.

Dakmar  posted on  2010-01-26   20:50:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: scrapper2 (#7) (Edited)

I think he's still the "arch priest" in charge of Papal Basilica of Saint Mary Major - the post that John Paul gave him after Law was forced to resign from his position in Boston.

Really now - that is a biggy --- does that entitle him to sweep the place out?

your_neighbor  posted on  2010-01-26   21:27:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: scrapper2 (#8) (Edited)

John Paul was elected to head one particular Christian denomination, the Catholic Church. If John Paul wanted to be an Everyman Christian, he should have declined being nominated to be Pope of the Catholic Church.

It seems to me that you dislike him because he was universally liked.

Doesn't the word catholic mean universal?

Is it wrong for a Pope to reach beyond the Church?

your_neighbor  posted on  2010-01-26   21:38:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: FormerLurker (#5)

Sounds like he may have been a member of Opus Dei...

Corporal Mortification in Opus Dei

There is a very long history of corporal mortification within the Catholic Church going back at least a thousand years. It used to be quite common among the "pious" throughout the medieval era and into the 18th century.

As well as being a diocesan priest (as opposed to a religious order priest) and the Pope, John Paul II was a Third Order Carmelite who had an affinity for the 16th century Spanish Carmelite nun, St. Teresa of Avila. St. Teresa was into corporal mortification, so it is much more likely that John Paul II was taking his cue from her than any 20th century creation.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2010-01-26   21:44:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: scrapper2 (#11)

Shiite Moslims beat themselves boddy all the time. John Pual II was a novice by comparison.

Sounds like he belonged to the modern version of the typical 11th century Christain self mutilation group called Opus Dei. Opus Dei is Latin for "Work of God". Opus Dei has been described as the most controversial force within the Catholic Church.

Most public attention has focused on Opus Dei's practice of mortification — the voluntary offering up of discomfort or pain to God. Mortification has a long history in many world religions, including the Catholic Church.

It has been endorsed by Popes as a way of following Christ who died in a bloody crucifixion and who gave this advice. Opus Dei focuses on performing sacrifices pertaining to normal duties and to its emphasis on charity and cheerfulness. One way of doing this is by wearing a cilice, a small metal chain with inward-pointing spikes that is worn around their upper thigh.

The cilice's spikes cause discomfort and may leave small marks, but typically do not cause bleeding. (You may remember this group from Dan Brown’s book “The Davinci Code (even though this representation may not be completely valid)).


Ferret Mike  posted on  2010-01-26   21:54:41 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Ferret Mike (#16)

typical 11th century Christain self mutilation group called Opus Dei.

You've been reading too many fiction novels. Opus Dei was founded in Spain in 1928 by the Roman Catholic priest St. Josemaría Escrivá. It was not an official order until 1950. There are dozens of "saints" from many different orders throughout the history of the CC that practiced self mutilation.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2010-01-26   22:00:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#17)

Karl Menninger in 1938 suggested that self -mutilation might be an effort to heal oneself. He wrote, "Local self-destruction is a form of partial suicide to avert total suicide." Menninger also classified the behavior into four categories: neurotic, psychotic, organic, and religious.

As far as the too many fiction books thing; hey, at least I read. Lot's of Americans are taxed if they try to read the cereal box in the morning when they eat a bit of breakfast.


Ferret Mike  posted on  2010-01-26   22:09:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Ferret Mike (#18)

Karl Menninger in 1938 suggested that self -mutilation might be an effort to heal oneself. He wrote, "Local self-destruction is a form of partial suicide to avert total suicide." Menninger also classified the behavior into four categories: neurotic, psychotic, organic, and religious.

The CC does a great job in filling their members with guilt due to their "sins". I could easily see that guilt turn into the type of self-hatred needed to put oneself through such a thing.

As far as the too many fiction books thing; hey, at least I read. Lot's of Americans are taxed if they try to read the cereal box in the morning when they eat a bit of breakfast.

I used to read a couple of books a week for recreation. Since I went back to school though, I don't have time to ready anything but molecular biology or physiology books. Hell now that the semester has started again, I doubt if I'll even be able to stop in here but a couple of times a week, if that.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2010-01-26   22:32:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: your_neighbor, PSUSA, Jethro Tull (#13)

Really now - that is a biggy --- does that entitle him to sweep the place out?

Here's an article about how John Paul rewarded Cardinal Law. Keep in mind that by giving Law this plum position in Rome to serve the Vatican, John Paul helped give Law refuge from US authorities. John Paul's actions were revolting, disgusting. He should rot in Hell not be sanctified. I have often wondered whether John Paul was a closet Communist, a Trojan Horse propelled up the hierarchy with the express purpose to bring down the Catholic Church. Yes, I know John Paul is adored worldwide as helping Poland, being a freedom fighting anti-communist priest. But perhaps that was his mask. Based on his actions he did everything to let evil flourish and bring infamy, scandal to the Church.

www.nytimes.com/2004/05/2...w-given-post-in-rome.html

"Cardinal Law Given Post In Rome"

Some cut and paste:

A statement released in the Vatican's daily bulletin announced that Cardinal Law, who resigned in 2002, would become the archpriest of St. Mary Major Basilica, a church in a downtown neighborhood of Rome that is under direct Vatican jurisdiction....a Vatican official said that ''now he will be responsible for one of the four most important basilicas'' in Rome. ''He will be in charge of the administration of the priests [ yikes!!!] and anything related to the basilica,''... The news of Cardinal Law's new position seemed to tear at emotional scars from those events.

''It's pretty offensive for most Catholics, and the timing couldn't be worse,'' said David Gibson, author of ''The Coming Catholic Church'' (Harper San Francisco, 2003). ''They're just cleaning up the mess in Boston and closing parishes, and he's getting the ultimate golden parachute. He's getting a beautiful apartment in Rome in one of the four major basilicas in Christendom.''

Despite his resignation in Boston, Cardinal Law has remained a powerful American figure in the Vatican. He has posts in as many as nine Vatican congregations, or departments, including the one that determines church leadership worldwide by nominating candidates for bishop. He is a member of the Congregation for Clergy, which has a role in handling sexual abuse cases that are sent to Rome. [ shish!]

... The appointment could be financially lucrative for Cardinal Law. His predecessor in the job, Cardinal Furno, received a 10,000 euro monthly stipend, or about $12,000, said a former Vatican official who is a friendly acquaintance of Cardinal Furno. Cardinal Furno lived in a palatial apartment alongside the right flank of the basilica that is reserved for the archpriest, said the former official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

''It's the classical Roman apartment with frescoes on the wall,'' the former official said. Cardinal Furno paid for costly renovations, he said, adding, ''It's endless.''

The appointment is also likely to make Cardinal Law one of the most influential Americans in the Vatican.

And the job will give him considerable autonomy. While at the Maryland convent, he was technically under the authority of the local bishop. Now, ''he answers to no one but the pope,'' the former Vatican official said...

scrapper2  posted on  2010-01-27   0:07:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: your_neighbor, scrapper2 (#4)

Was Law ever heard from again?

On our trip to Italy a year ago i was at one neighboring cathedral and happened to see a poster announcing that cardinal Law was to appear there the previous day (they had not takien the sign down)./ i will have to dig up a photo of it. must admit i found it very distasteful to see him being lauded as if it were an honor to see him.

"Chains shall He break, for the slave is our brother; and in His Name, all oppression shall CEASE"
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2010-01-27   0:37:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: PSUSA (#1)

hey nice to see you. hows everything going?

"Chains shall He break, for the slave is our brother; and in His Name, all oppression shall CEASE"
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2010-01-27   0:38:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: your_neighbor (#14)

It seems to me that you dislike him because he was universally liked.

Doesn't the word catholic mean universal?

Is it wrong for a Pope to reach beyond the Church?

I dislike John Paul because he knowingly let evil flourish with the end result that the Catholic Church was almost destroyed. Before reaching out to other faiths and Christian denominations, John Paul should have kept his own House in order. He did the opposite. John Paul was an evil man, imo. Btw, I come from a stalwart Catholic family, yet I can barely use the word "Pope" in association with John Paul.

You want another example of John Paul encouraging evil to flourish in case you are still not convinced? John Paul was a real close pal of a so-called "conservative" [smirk] priest called Father Maciel, head of the Legion of Christ. Father Maciel was a mover and shaker in the Catholic Church - his order ran elite prep schools in Latin America, the USA, and Europe as well as seminaries in Spain and Rome.It turned out that Father Maciel was a serial pederast who abused adolescent male victims in the "elite prep" schools that he ran. When various abused victims came forward, instead of investigating the accusations, John Paul named his good old pal, Father Maciel, "a special delegate to a synod of bishops in Rome." Does this M.O. not sound familiar? Thankfully Father Maciel was made a pariah of the Church by Pope Benedict shortly after he ascended as the new Pope and Father Maciel finally croaked in 2008. But while John Paul was alive, Maciel had his ear and this predator was held on high because he was John Paul's friend. There's a saying that birds of a feather fly together, yes?

scrapper2  posted on  2010-01-27   0:57:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: scrapper2 (#20)

I have often wondered whether John Paul was a closet Communist, a Trojan Horse propelled up the hierarchy with the express purpose to bring down the Catholic Church. Yes, I know John Paul is adored worldwide as helping Poland, being a freedom fighting anti-communist priest. But perhaps that was his mask. Based on his actions he did everything to let evil flourish and bring infamy, scandal to the Church.

You really hate John Paul.

One can not argue with someone with your depth of feelings - so this is the last post on this thread for me.

your_neighbor  posted on  2010-01-27   1:08:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: your_neighbor (#24)

a. You really hate John Paul.

b. One can not argue with someone with your depth of feelings -

a. I don't hate him. I feel nothing but contempt for him. I think my attitude towards him is well founded considering John Paul's previous actions.

I do find it curious that you seem to respect him still.

b. I'm currently a non-practicing Catholic whose faith and whose church was torn asunder due to John Paul. The horrendus ongoing sexual abuse of teenage boys and the rape of their innocence, occurred on John Paul's watch and, I might add, with his full knowledge. John Paul subsequently rewarded the evil doers. Perhaps it's easier for you to admire John Paul for his universal outreach when you are not a member of the church his actions defiled.

scrapper2  posted on  2010-01-27   1:41:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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