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Title: 9/11 demolition theory challenged
Source:
BBC
URL Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6987965.stm
Published: Sep 11, 2007
Author: staff
Post Date: 2010-07-17 17:31:29 by buckeroo
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Keywords: None
Views: 17138
Comments: 1209
An analysis of the World Trade Center collapse has challenged a conspiracy theory surrounding the 9/11 attacks. The study by a Cambridge University engineer demonstrates that once the collapse of the twin towers began, it was destined to be rapid and total. One of many conspiracy theories proposes that the buildings came down in a manner consistent with a "controlled demolition". The study suggests a different explanation for how the towers fell. Over 2,800 people were killed in the devastating attacks on New York. After reviewing television footage of the Trade Center's destruction, engineers had proposed the idea of "progressive collapse" to explain the way the twin towers disintegrated on 11 September 2001. This mode of structural failure describes the way the building fell straight down rather than toppling, with each successive floor crushing the one beneath (an effect called "pancaking"). Resistance to collapse Dr Keith Seffen set out to test mathematically whether this chain reaction really could explain what happened in Lower Manhattan six years ago. The findings are to be published in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics. Previous studies have tended to focus on the initial stages of collapse, showing that there was an initial, localised failure around the aircraft impact zones, and that this probably led to the progressive collapse of both structures. Man stands amid rubble of the World Trade Center, AFP/Getty Once the collapse began, it was destined to be "rapid and total" In other words, the damaged parts of the tower were bound to fall down, but it was not clear why the undamaged building should have offered little resistance to these falling parts. "The initiation part has been quantified by many people; but no one had put numbers on the progressive collapse," Dr Seffen told the BBC News website. Dr Seffen was able to calculate the "residual capacity" of the undamaged building: that is, simply speaking, the ability of the undamaged structure to resist or comply with collapse. His calculations suggest the residual capacity of the north and south towers was limited, and that once the collapse was set in motion, it would take only nine seconds for the building to go down. This is just a little longer than a free-falling coin, dropped from the top of either tower, would take to reach the ground. 'Fair assumption' The University of Cambridge engineer said his results therefore suggested progressive collapse was "a fair assumption in terms of how the building fell". "One thing that confounded engineers was how falling parts of the structure ploughed through undamaged building beneath and brought the towers down so quickly," said Dr Seffen. The south tower of the World Trade Center collapses, AP Conspiracy theorists see evidence of a "controlled detonation" He added that his calculations showed this was a "very ordinary thing to happen" and that no other intervention, such as explosive charges laid inside the building, was needed to explain the behaviour of the buildings. The controlled detonation idea, espoused on several internet websites, asserts that the manner of collapse is consistent with synchronised rows of explosives going off inside the World Trade Center. This would have generated a demolition wave that explained the speed, uniformity and similarity between the collapses of both towers. Conspiracy theorists assert that these explosive "squibs" can actually be seen going off in photos and video footage of the collapse. These appear as ejections of gas and debris from the sides of the building, well below the descending rubble. Other observers say this could be explained by debris falling down lift shafts and impacting on lower floors during the collapse. Dr Seffen's research could help inform future building design.
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#1089. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, RickyJ (#1043)
LOL!!! WHAT 40:23 second mark? Is this guy drinking out of the same Sterno both you and buck are chugging? What sort of bullshit is this, the guy has the video running at super slow motion, and gives his "own" time that we are supposed to just accept on faith. What a crock. The liars think the truthers are stupid.
I then posted The twit The response to this post All you do You're all brain dead That post is like reading a note taken from a middle school girl. Yawn.......diversion to bitching duly noted.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
The only "jerkers" here are you and buck, and I'm sure you're both very close. It's also quite obvious that you BOTH have a fervent religious belief in the "Official 9/11 Faerie Tale ™", and that you both get highly agitated and foam at the mouth whenever anybody posts facts and evidence that contradicts your religous belief in that story. That you decided to play games here and post about a professor's private life in terms of his religion shows how desparate you are. You have nothing else, so you resort to character assassination to "win" your "argument", somehow projecting that man's sincere religious beliefs across the entire spectrum of topics that relate to 9/11, to prove we are all "k00ks". What a piece of work you are. That's why I thought you fabricated it, since you WOULD stoop that low if you thought you could get away with it.
He more than likely did his Dr. Jones show in order to push that video off the current view, so that people couldn't see how ridiculous his video was, and the claims he made stating how accurate it was and how we're all stupid.
He more than likely did his Dr. Jones show in order to push that video off the current view, so that people couldn't see how ridiculous his video was, and the claims he made stating how accurate it was and how we're all stupid. I don't understand why someone would want to be a part of the liar movement.
with the caliber of his other posts I'd say bucky is that stupid and more often than not the only thing to come out of his mouth on the subject is AGovshill's penis.
it would cause the unemployment numbers to jump by three; as bucky, AGovshill and turtle would be out of liar movement work.
The thread is about "911 conspiracy theories challenged." You haven't done too well on any of those. Being debunked on ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You're the one who introduced "religious belief" into the discussion thread about challenges to demolition theory," anaerobe. You can dish it out but can't take it. No surprise from a loser. That's how you all operate.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who are you trying to fool? Er, let's see who is it calling others FUCKWIT, FUCKTARD, stupid fuck.....yada, yada, yada. What a hypocrite you are!! Like I said, your diversion to bitching and insults are duly noted. Now, put the stones down, no need tossing them at others from your glass house. Epic fail on what you deem a "clouting" on 1-15......more delusions of adequacy.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Zobgy says 4.2% as of 2006. Got any better numbers? I give you Six Percent and that's being generous. You've had 8 years. How many Congress people, how many local elected officials? How many of the 60something lawsuits against Obama have even gotten to discovery instead of immediate dismissals and fulminations from the bench about filing false evidence, not following protocol correctly, in order to try to make political points not suited for court cases.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AGovshill must be dipping into bucky's sterno a bit heavy tonight. at best the members of the liar movement could be sited as examples of how well the dumbing down of America is progressing.
An entire post of polls regarding the public calling bovine excrement on the 911 fairy tale has already been posted here at 4um. Has it's own thread. We all know you saw it, read it and then opted to ignore it.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Being debunked on ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Retard, you didn't debunk that. Posting some "official investigation" doesn't debunk that their was without a shadow of a doubt enough shorting and put options going on a few days before 9/11 on the EXACT compaines that would be damaged and gain from the terror attacks that ony a REATRD would say they didn't know what was up. YOU HERE ME RETARD! ONLY A RETARD WOULDN"T KNOW THEY KNEW!
God is always good!
The biggest money was made on 911 by buying call options or stock in the weeks or so everybody else was panicking and selling right after the crash. Only idiots think people made big dollars on put options, when every person with apparently questionable put rades was noted and interviewed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Being debunked on (1) The 9.22 freefall time, Lie. It WOULD HAVE taken 9.22 seconds for an object to fall from the top of the North Tower. (2)The AA cabin door not opening claims, That has not been proven one way or another. It is still an open question. (3) Claims that Hajour couldn't fly and never had a license, Hanjour was a totally inept pilot, according to his instructors. They called the FAA to verify he actually had a license, since they couldn't believe it was real as he wasn't qualified to have one, yet somehow he did. (4) Denials that Prof. Steven E. Jones authored "Christ Visited the Mayans," Like that has anything to do with the 9/11 attacks, eh? (5) Claims of "molten steel" which was actually burning aluminum and office fire trash, You did not prove anything of the sort. You made claims, but proved nothing. (6) The kinetic energy of the WTC airliner crashes being over 1 giagajoule, Yeah, so? (7) Trashing Thomas Eagar without providing any substantive facts on his WTC explanation, his CV, or his patents, He blew smoke up your ass and you enjoyed it. He does not explain anything scientifically regarding 9/11, and I inadvertently gave him more credit than he deserved since I thought he HAD done some sort of analysis. Apparently he just tossed out a bunch of lies (hugely exaggerated the amount of fuel for one, and tried to say that a structure's inertia will tear it down, rather than RESIST motion). (8) The false claim that structures falling at less than near free fall speeds are still CD's when in fact CD companies spend months setting up buildings to make sure they fall straight down as quickly as possible, Again you're being an idiot. A NORMAL controlled demolition would do just that, take it down as quickly as possible. A STAGED TERRORIST ACT which is being sold as THERE ARE NO EXPLOSIVES in the building can NOT behave the same as an obvious controlled demolition, since people even dumber than you would know that's exactly what it was. (9) The statement by Controlled Demoliton President Mark Loziaux that it would simply not be possible for any WTC building to be prepped for CD's without being seen, And he lied. His former employee, Tom Sullivan, said it would VERY possible using the elevator shafts. Oddly enough, there WAS work being done on the elevators just weeks before 9/11. (9) The back pedaling on a statement by a former CD employee saying he actually does not know what caused the WTC collapses, but he is putting forth scenarios of equipment he believes could have been used, Huh? He said that it was a controlled demolition due to the nature of the collapse. The exact equipment can't be determined, but the fact remains that it did happen. (10) The easily debunked statements about insider trading pre 911, You never posted any proof of that. (11) The false claim the WTC building was designed to withstand a 600 mph jet crash when in fact it was designed for a 250 knot air space speed the max allowed where it was located, That is what the designer claimed, and stated that studies had been done confirming that. (12) The idiotic claim that "they" wanted to hit the Pentagon, but only in harmless places - it was all part of the conspiracy to whack New York but not Washington Pentagon chickenhawks, Why would they hit themselves and cripple the means for them to launch two different wars? (13) Over 30 phone calls describing hijackers recorded giving seat numbers and hijacker descriptions, You never posted any real evidence of that, you just parroted the silly claims made alleging that's what happened. In reality, even the DOJ had to admit at the Moussaoui trial that Barbara Olson only called her husband once that day, and the call didn't go through, so either Solicitor Olson had lied, or somebody else pretending to be his wife called him. (14) "Pull" = "pull down with cables" construction, and = "pull back" fire fighters, Not proven. (15) Niels Harrit "peer review" = $800 pay to publish Dubai hole in the wall Who cares.
I am being generous when I call you Six Percenters. Doubtful your intention is to be generous. Either you're mistakenly wrong on your percentages because you just don't know any better yet or you're being an intentionally lying disinfo artist. Take your pick but the first option is no longer a valid choice after this post: Video w/printed stats from 4um thread: 911 Polls - You Are Not Alone ThoughtCrime7 | August 18, 2007 How many people believe 9/11 was an inside job? Below are results of 8 polls by Zogby, Scripps, Angus Reid, 911Inquiry.Org and some non-scientific polls also. Scientific Polls: CBS/Angus Reid, Oct 2006 ZOGBY, Feb 2006 SCRIPPS/HOWARD, July 2006 911INQUIRY.ORG, May 2004 Non-Scientific Polls: MSNBC, Sept 2006 up to present (Oct 2007) CNN, Nov 2004 COLBERT NATION, June 2006 AM 640 Radio Toronto, August 2006 Booyah
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
You do truly crack me up bloviator. Are you double jointed? If not your elbow must be in a lot of pain from patting yourself on the back. Although I would guess you have good lung capacity as you are continually tooting your own horn. Debunked? Hardly. 9.22 Seconds is the rate at which an object dropped from the highest point on the towers would take, in a vacuum, to hit the ground. No one maintains that the towers collapsed in 9.22 seconds. They did however collapse at a rate consistent with a controlled demolition. 16 seconds for one which is about 1.66 the freefall rate, and 22 seconds for the other about 2.29 times the pure freefall rate, and they collapsed neatly into their own footprints. However, you will continue to weasel on the point, but although a relevant datum the entire case does not rest on it. The nice thing about being on the side of truth? You can be wrong once in a while. Unlike you who must slavishly defend every twist and turn in the Official Conspiracy Theory and believe multiple contradictory datums. No one claims he did not have a license. Like a true debunker you can't even get your facts straight before you try to distort them. Sure he had a license - a "Learner's Permit" which is what a "Commercial Certificate" in effect is. It gives one permission to train on such aircraft, but does not grant the right to fly a normal Passenger Airliner. From the thread on Al Qaeda's "Top Gun": And your point? This affects the physics of 911 how? The numbers and data either add up or they do not. What Prof. Jones religious beliefs are has no bearing on basic physics, the mathematics of motion, or whether there are chemical traces of advanced Super Thermite residue in the dust from the explosively demolished Twin Towers and WTC 7. Which Dr. Jones ran experiments on in the laboratory and regardless of what you add to molten aluminum it is still silvery in appearance not dull red orange like molten steel. Molten Steel that could not be produced by the weak and oxygen starved fires in the towers. Of course I presume you are as knowledgeable about metallurgy as you are of commercial aviation ratings. And your point? It still does not change the fact that the towers were designed to absorb that and still stand. As well a raw number is a raw number. For the number to have any significance you have to be able to say how the energy was directed and to what effect. The trajectory of the plane hitting the South Tower was oblique and angled away from the core, which was the central load bearing structure for the tower, as evidenced by the nose of the plane exiting the corner - and the huge fireball as the atomized fuel flowed out and harmlessly, but spectacularly, exploded outside the building. Bullshit. I posted a full rebuttal on one of the threads. Eager is a Rent-a-Prof and whatever honors or patents he might hold are irrelevant and to cite them is simply a Red Herring and an Appeal To Misleading Authority as they have nothing to do with how physical laws operate nor in how the Twin Towers were constructed. Eager's "Pancake"s and Syrup theory ignores the central load bearing structures of the buildings, the heavy cross braced steel columns, and focuses on the windscreen. I repeat Eager is a boob who was bought for the occasion. He will not defend his thesis in a public forum and will not entertain interviews from anyone who might ask relevant questions about the holes in his, pardon the exxageration, "hypothesis". Which is just a hypothesis as he has never supported it with any scientific rigor, paper, or any other publication subject to professional review. Strawman Argument. No controlled demolition falls at freefall velocity. They ALL fall at near freefall velocity - just as did the twin towers and WTC 7 - which was not hit by airplane. Unsupported assertion made by a man who relies on government contracts for his living. In fact he was awarded one of the contracts for the clean-up at Ground Zero. One of his former employees, as you well know, says that they do look like controlled demolitions. Since we do not know exactly how they were rigged that is nothing more than an honest caveat. It is not backpedaling it is something you are unfamiliar with - integrity. Oh, so the Put volume on AA and UAL in the week before being many times normal is not an anomalous datum huh? Just one of those coincidences eh? LOL! Again your misrepresentation is largely hot air and bloviation. The fact is the towers were designed with the impact of a Boeing 707 with a heavier fuel load in mind. While you may try to minimize this and obscure the fact they WERE designed to withstand an aircraft impact. Oh, and what kind of plane did you say hit WTC 7? Sheer bloviation on your part. The evidence speaks for itself. Flt 77 was on approach to the Pentagon and could have easily dove and hit the section of the building holding all the brass, but instead it circles around and then makes a tight spiral descent of 7,000 feet in 2.5 minutes while executing a 320 degree turn, exceeding the limitations of the airframe's theoretical maximum stress, to line up and make a level flight approach at tree top height for a mile, then accelerating to 460 Knots (530 MPH) to hit a wall 71 feet high while overcoming ground effect and wingtip vortices in a maneuver that professional pilots looking at it have expressed doubt they could have done it, and we are to believe that an incompetent flight school drop out just by pure chance picked the one wall in the Pentagram guaranteed to do the least damage, while destroying inconvenient audit records on the missing 2.3 TRILLION dollars. I know just another crazy coincidence. Kind of like winning the lottery 5 weeks running. Which given the technology, analog, and the transmitter strength of the phones was technically impossible. We have already debunked the Ted Olson calls - one call - duration Zero. More weasling. Lucky Larry's exact words were "we decided it would be best to pull the building". Demolition slang for setting off the charges to pull a building down. I bet you were right there with good ol' Bubba Bill on the meaning of "is" too. And in what way does that invalidate the research data? Again this has been refuted and we both know it is not a refutation of his research and analysis but a veiled Argumentum Ad Hominem to try and discredit the research without actually doing so. As usual you are weighed in the balance and found wanting. You are little more than a low level disinformation artist who could not think your way out of paper bag without your "talking points". You engage routinely in logical fallacies, misrepresentations, and personal attacks. You are simply an ill mannered lightweight and a quisling.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
He more than likely did his Dr. Jones show in order to push that video off the current view, so that people couldn't see how ridiculous his video was, and the claims he made stating how accurate it was and how we're all stupid. I don't understand why someone would want to be a part of the liar movement. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Either that, money i.e. paid, or psychoses. Take your pick.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
I'm going to be generous, AGA, and give you one more chance to stop peddling that baseless nonsense bolded above which I cautioned you earlier about here: Post #982 Cease and desist pretending that there isn't more than enough in evidence there and in the NIST report to debunk that farcical "talking point" of the guv issued fable, else you will be deemed exposed and PWND as a Willful Liar. As for Loizeaux, he states himself that 9/11 ruined him on account of everybody got too scared of loud noises after that, so that should be a clue to you that he isn't playing with a full deck, as they say. Obviously, the real reason his business disipated afterwards was because his prospective customers musta lurnt there's no use for his expensive "artform" anymore. All that's necessary is to punch a hole -- or a few holes -- in a building, sprinkle it with some trademark Magical Jet Fuel, light up a match, and wait a bit for it to burn down into its own footprint, yes?
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
Maybe they could find some honest work. What you reckon?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. I guess it proves that saying about how no one is completely worthless, that even the worst among us can be pointed to as bad examples if nothing else.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. In your reply to blowviator, you said (in part): "...A STAGED TERRORIST ACT which is being sold as THERE ARE NO EXPLOSIVES in the building can NOT behave the same as an obvious controlled demolition, since would know that's exactly what it was..." What I want to know is where do you find such people (dumber than blowviator) outside mental institutions?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. No firefighters were engaged in fighting the fires at the time Silverstein made his comment, a fact which has been posted before. But no matter what, the idiots in the liar movement keep on "catapulting the propaganda" making outlandish claims and insulting the intelligence of anyone who has kept up at all.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. LOL!
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. FormerLurker: Neither of which he was actually qualified for, according to anyone who tested his "abilities". BTW, his "commercial license" allowed him to fly for hire, but not anything in the way of jet aircraft, just a standard propeller driven plane. Wait a minute. You have repeatedly danced around Hanjour's "lack of certifications" for piles of posts on this thread and at least one other about your silly-wet dream of a cabin door. Now, that I provided hard factual evidence of those same certifications, you are saying he wasn't really qualified. What the fuck are you doing? The guy was trained to fly ... and knew instrumentation required to steer the craft where he wanted. As AG as repeatedly told you this does not mean he was the caricature of your expert flying class called "top gun." You are blowing shit out of your keyboard. FL: you are a wiggling out of your own claims backed into a corner with no leg to stand upon.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
FormerLurker: Neither of which he was actually qualified for, according to anyone who tested his "abilities". BTW, his "commercial license" allowed him to fly for hire, but not anything in the way of jet aircraft, just a standard propeller driven plane. Wait a minute. You have repeatedly danced around Hanjour's "lack of certifications" for piles of posts on this thread and at least one other about your silly-wet dream of a cabin door. Now, that I provided hard factual evidence of those same certifications, you are saying he wasn't really qualified. What the fuck are you doing? The guy was trained to fly ... and knew instrumentation required to steer the craft where he wanted. As AG as repeatedly told you this does not mean he was the caricature of your expert flying class called "top gun." You are blowing shit out of your keyboard. Still catapulting the lies I see. Hanjour had the license equivalent of a "Learner's Permit" for commercial aircraft to train on the class of aircraft he allegedly sought to pilot. However, he never completed his training, was NOT rated to fly an airliner, he cut class, was rated by ALL of his instructors as a terrible student and even worse pilot. He flew a jet aircraft - the largest thing he ever flew was a twin engine propeller driven Piper Apache (Just like "Penny" flew, much more competently, in the 50's kids TV program "Sky King". For bonus points what was the name of her plane?) four seater. Attempting to assert that Hanjour was a qualified pilot and capable enough to perform the observed maneuvers is simply a lie and a distortion of the clear facts - Hanjour was incompetent as a pilot. It cannot be characterized any other way. To assert otherwise is simply disinformation. Why do you find it necessary to use disinformation tactics?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
If he couldn't fly a Cessna, nor speak English, it's obvious he SHOULDN'T have been issued any sort of pilot's license, private OR commercial. I just wanted to see if there WERE any copies of said license or certificate online, since it would provide info as to who the idiot was who signed off on it. It was either part of building the "legend" around Mr. Hanjour(Hanjoor), or outright negligence on the part of the FAA examiner. Hopefully those with the power to investigate will dig into it more. I'm not holding my breath though.
If even THAT is to be believed. BTW, I thought the claim was an Apache twin- engine?
I might have misremembered - it might have been a Piper Apache. I'll check.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
It's what he does here, and doing it just as much as any other shill that's ever tried to kill discussion about things the masters wish to keep hidden.
I stand corrected - it was a Piper Apache. "One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Hanjour had the license equivalent of a "Learner's Permit" for commercial aircraft to train on the class of aircraft he allegedly sought to pilot. However, he never completed his training, was NOT rated to fly an airliner, he cut class, was rated by ALL of his instructors as a terrible student and even worse pilot. He NEVER flew a jet aircraft - the largest thing he ever flew was a twin engine propeller driven Beechraft four seater. Attempting to assert that Hanjour was a qualified pilot and capable enough to perform the observed maneuvers is simply a lie and a distortion of the clear facts - Hanjour was incompetent as a pilot. It cannot be characterized any other way. To assert otherwise is simply disinformation. Why do you find it necessary to use disinformation tactics? Hey O_I ... get it through that thick skull of yours that this thread is about the demolition theory of the WTC. When FL repeatedly spun Hanjour's background.... look it up your self BSer .... I jumped in and posted the documentation about those certifications AND his records of flight instruction to INCLUDE his instructor. The issues about Hanjour's background on this thread are silly. BUT, he was able to use the electronic systems of a plane. And Hanjouir did a poor job of it. Your denial ... is proof that you have nothing in that thick, mass called a cranium..... it is a vacuum.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Good question, although the answer is right in front of us. I've heard that AGAviator and buckeye are twins. Here's their photo (I'm guessing the one on the right is buck) .. Sorry bucky but Bzzzzzzzt! Wrong again - the assertions made, when and where, are not relevant to exposing your misrepresentations. Well, I don't have any more time to play with you now. Why don't you play with yourself?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Posting PC crap again? The original documentation is right here on this thread... instead of "misremembering" you could (at least) look it up.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
And according to his instructors, he was a terrible student and even worse pilot. One said, "he couldn't fly at all". One school called the FAA to verify that he actually possessed a license, thinking that what he presented was a fake, since he lacked any of the skills required of a person holding that sort of license.
You are insane.... FL has repeatedly misrepresented Hanjour has his "Holy Grail." What a silly, nitwit you are in publick.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Unlike you, OI admits when he made an error, one which was largely insignificant compared to your whoppers, which you've NEVER retracted.
So what? You are the guy that kept driving this thread to Hanjour's background... I have proved you don't know anything but how to spin even your coverups about your own posts here on this thread.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestWatch the 40:23 second mark of this video?
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#1090. To: AGAviator, buckeroo (#1088)
Jerker posted an insult
#1091. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, abraxas (#1088)
(Edited)
Jerker posted an insult to buck, claiming buck had a religious belief about 19 ragheads.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#1092. To: wudidiz (#1089)
The liars think the truthers are stupid.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#1093. To: FormerLurker (#1092)
The liars think the truthers are stupid.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#1094. To: FormerLurker (#1002)
Since building 7 could NOT have collapsed any other way than by controlled demolition, do you think some guy stood there with a Bic lighter inside the building and lit a fuse?
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#1095. To: James Deffenbach (#1054)
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#1096. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#1090)
.......diversion to bitching duly noted.
(1) The 9.22 freefall time,
Yeah, if I got clouted on these issues and others I'd try to make it personal too.
(2)The AA cabin door not opening claims,
(3) Claims that Hajour couldn't fly and never had a license,
(4) Denials that Prof. Steven E. Jones authored "Christ Visited the Mayans,"
(5) Claims of "molten steel" which was actually burning aluminum and office fire trash,
(6) The kinetic energy of the WTC airliner crashes being over 1 giagajoule,
(7) Trashing Thomas Eagar without providing any substantive facts on his WTC explanation, his CV, or his patents,
(8) The false claim that structures falling at less than near free fall speeds are still CD's when in fact CD companies spend months setting up buildings to make sure they fall straight down as quickly as possible,
(9) The statement by Controlled Demoliton President Mark Loziaux that it would simply not be possible for any WTC building to be prepped for CD's without being seen,
(9) The back pedaling on a statement by a former CD employee saying he actually does not know what caused the WTC collapses, but he is putting forth scenarios of equipment he believes could have been used,
(10) The easily debunked statements about insider trading pre 911,
(11) The false claim the WTC building was designed to withstand a 600 mph jet crash when in fact it was designed for a 250 knot air space speed the max allowed where it was located,
(12) The idiotic claim that "they" wanted to hit the Pentagon, but only in harmless places - it was all part of the conspiracy to whack New York but not Washington Pentagon chickenhawks,
(13) Over 30 phone calls describing hijackers recorded giving seat numbers and hijacker descriptions,
(14) "Pull" = "pull down with cables" construction, and = "pull back" fire fighters,
(15) Niels Harrit "peer review" = $800 pay to publish Dubai hole in the wall
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#1097. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#1091)
A professor's private life in terms of his religion
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#1098. To: AGAviator, buckaroo (#1096)
I'd try to make it personal too.
#1099. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle (#1098)
(Edited)
Epic fail on what you deem a "clouting" on 1-15......more delusions of adequacy
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#1100. To: abraxas (#1098)
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#1101. To: AGAviator (#1099)
#1102. To: IRTorqued (#1100)
the members of the liar movement
(1) The 9.22 freefall time,
(2)The AA cabin door not opening claims,
(3) Claims that Hajour couldn't fly and never had a license,
(4) Denials that Prof. Steven E. Jones authored "Christ Visited the Mayans,"
(5) Claims of "molten steel" which was actually burning aluminum and office fire trash,
(6) The kinetic energy of the WTC airliner crashes being over 1 giagajoule,
(7) Trashing Thomas Eagar without providing any substantive facts on his WTC explanation, his CV, or his patents,
(8) The false claim that structures falling at less than near free fall speeds are still CD's when in fact CD companies spend months setting up buildings to make sure they fall straight down as quickly as possible,
(9) The statement by Controlled Demoliton President Mark Loziaux that it would simply not be possible for any WTC building to be prepped for CD's without being seen,
(9) The back pedaling on a statement by a former CD employee saying he actually does not know what caused the WTC collapses, but he is putting forth scenarios of equipment he believes could have been used,
(10) The easily debunked statements about insider trading pre 911,
(11) The false claim the WTC building was designed to withstand a 600 mph jet crash when in fact it was designed for a 250 knot air space speed the max allowed where it was located,
(12) The idiotic claim that "they" wanted to hit the Pentagon, but only in harmless places - it was all part of the conspiracy to whack New York but not Washington Pentagon chickenhawks,
(13) Over 30 phone calls describing hijackers recorded giving seat numbers and hijacker descriptions,
(14) "Pull" = "pull down with cables" construction, and = "pull back" fire fighters,
(15) Niels Harrit "peer review" = $800 pay to publish Dubai hole in the wall
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#1103. To: AGAviator (#1102)
(Edited)
The easily debunked statements about insider trading pre 911,
#1104. To: RickyJ (#1103)
enough shorting and put options going on a few days before 9/11 on the EXACT
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#1105. To: AGAviator, abraxas, RickyJ, IRTorqued, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach (#1096)
You haven't done too well on any of those.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#1106. To: AGAviator (#969)
A 2006 Zogby poll actually put the number who believe "The USG did it" at 4.2%.
58% say that gov't officials are "lying" in the 9/11 Commission Report - only 16% say they are telling the truth when asked the question "When it comes to what they knew prior to September 11th, 2001, about possible terrorist attacks against the United States, do you think members of the Bush Administration are telling the truth, are mostly telling the truth but hiding something, or are they mostly lying?"
(LIHOP theory)
Link: http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/...
49.3% of New York City residents and 41% of New York citizens overall say that some of our leaders "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act".
(LIHOP theory)
Link: http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.db...
36% of respondents overall said it is "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that federal officials either participated in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon or took no action to stop them "because they wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East."
(Covers both LIHOP and MIHOP theories)
Link: http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll
63% of Canadians agreed that "Individuals within the U.S. Government including the White House had prior knowledge of the plans for the events of September 11th, and failed to take appropriate action to stop them". Additionally, 16% of Canadians believe that individuals within the U.S. Government were involved in the planning and execution of the events of September 11th.
(47% LIHOP, 16% MIHOP, 63% combined)
Link: http://www.911inquiry.org/911PollResu...
"Do you believe any of the conspiracy theories suggesting the U.S. government was somehow involved in 9/11?"
(Covers both LIHOP and MIHOP theories)
YES: 67%
link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14727720
"Do you believe there is a US government cover up surrouning 911?" (Question is too vague to specify LIHOP or MIHOP - could be interpreted as a coverup of incompetence only)
YES: 89%
Link: http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept...
"Was 9/11 an inside job?" (MIHOP)
YES: 66%
Link: removed
"Was 9/11 an inside job?" (MIHOP)
YES: 85%
Link: http://640toronto.com/station/corus_q...
#1107. To: AGBloviator, AGAviator, FormerLurker, abraxas, James Deffenbach, wudidiz, all (#1102)
(1) The 9.22 freefall time,
(2)The AA cabin door not opening claims,
(3) Claims that Hajour couldn't fly and never had a license,
"In an apparent attempt to bolster the misleading characterization that Hanjour began training "in earnest", the 9/11 also stated that it took only "Several more months" to obtain his commercial pilot certificate. In fact, it took Hanjour another year of training before he managed to obtain that second certificate. On April 15, 1999, the FAA issued a commercial pilot certificate to him under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor."24 The certificate was issued by Daryl M. Strong, an independent contractor for the FAA, with an "Airplane Multiengine Land" rating. To obtain the certificate, Hanjour’s records show he flew his check ride in a Piper PA 23-150 "Apache", a four-seat twin-engine plane, which Hanjour was in command of for 14.8 hours of the 27 hours completed for the test.35
Contrary to the Washington Post’s assertion that this certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets", in fact it only allowed him to begin passenger jet training. Hanjour did so, only to fail the class.36 As the Associated Press reported, the "certification allowed him to begin passenger jet training at an Arizona flight school despite having what instructors later described as limited flying skills and an even more limited command of English."37
Furthermore, there remains an open question about whether Hanjour was actually qualified to receive that certificate in the first place. According to Heather Awsumb, a spokeswoman for Professional Airways Systems Specialists (PASS), a union that represents FAA employees, "The real problem is that regular oversight is handed over to private industry", since private contractors "receive between $200 and $300 for each check flight. If they get a reputation for being tough, they won’t get any business."38
To obtain a commercial pilot license, the applicant must "Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language." It seems highly dubious that Hanjour met that qualification, as the 9/11 Commission itself acknowledges that his English skills were inadequate. The certificate does not allow its holder to fly any commercial aircraft, but is issued for "the aircraft category and class rating sought". Hanjour only trained in light propeller planes like the single-engine Cessna and twin-engine Piper, and had never flown a jet aircraft."39
(4) Denials that Prof. Steven E. Jones authored "Christ Visited the Mayans,"
(5) Claims of "molten steel" which was actually burning aluminum and office fire trash,
(6) The kinetic energy of the WTC airliner crashes being over 1 giagajoule,
(7) Trashing Thomas Eagar without providing any substantive facts on his WTC explanation, his CV, or his patents,
(8) The false claim that structures falling at less than near free fall speeds are still CD's when in fact CD companies spend months setting up buildings to make sure they fall straight down as quickly as possible,
(9) The statement by Controlled Demoliton President Mark Loziaux that it would simply not be possible for any WTC building to be prepped for CD's without being seen,
(9) The back pedaling on a statement by a former CD employee saying he actually does not know what caused the WTC collapses, but he is putting forth scenarios of equipment he believes could have been used,
(10) The easily debunked statements about insider trading pre 911,
(11) The false claim the WTC building was designed to withstand a 600 mph jet crash when in fact it was designed for a 250 knot air space speed the max allowed where it was located,
(12) The idiotic claim that "they" wanted to hit the Pentagon, but only in harmless places - it was all part of the conspiracy to whack New York but not Washington Pentagon chickenhawks,
(13) Over 30 phone calls describing hijackers recorded giving seat numbers and hijacker descriptions,
(14) "Pull" = "pull down with cables" construction, and = "pull back" fire fighters,
(15) Niels Harrit "peer review" = $800 pay to publish Dubai hole in the wall
#1108. To: wudidiz, FormerLurker (#1093)
The liars think the truthers are stupid.
#1109. To: AGAviator (#1096)
(Edited)
(9) The statement by Controlled Demoliton President Mark Loziaux that it would simply not be possible for any WTC building to be prepped for CD's without being seen,
#1110. To: IRTorqued (#1095)
it would cause the unemployment numbers to jump by three; as bucky, AGovshill and turtle would be out of liar movement work.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#1111. To: IRTorqued (#1100)
AGovshill must be dipping into bucky's sterno a bit heavy tonight. at best the members of the liar movement could be sited as examples of how well the dumbing down of America is progressing.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#1112. To: FormerLurker (#1105)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#1113. To: FormerLurker (#1105)
(Edited)
blowviator: (14) "Pull" = "pull down with cables" construction, and = "pull back" fire fighters,
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#1114. To: GreyLmist (#1109)
As for Loizeaux, he states himself that 9/11 ruined him on account of everybody got too scared of loud noises after that, so that should be a clue to you that he isn't playing with a full deck, as they say. Obviously, the real reason his business disipated afterwards was because his prospective customers musta lurnt there's no use for his expensive "artform" anymore. All that's necessary is to punch a hole -- or a few holes -- in a building, sprinkle it with some trademark Magical Jet Fuel, light up a match, and wait a bit for it to burn down into its own footprint, yes?
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#1115. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#1038)
buckeroo: Hanjour was certified as both a private pilot and commercial aircraft.
#1116. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, James Deffenbach, all (#1115)
(Edited)
buckeroo: Hanjour was certified as both a private pilot and commercial aircraft.
#1117. To: buckeroo (#1115)
Wait a minute. You have repeatedly danced around Hanjour's "lack of certifications" for piles of posts on this thread and at least one other about your silly-wet dream of a cabin door. Now, that I provided hard factual evidence of those same certifications, you are saying he wasn't really qualified.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#1118. To: Original_Intent (#1116)
He NEVER flew a jet aircraft - the largest thing he ever flew was a twin engine propeller driven Beechraft four seater.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#1119. To: FormerLurker (#1118)
#1120. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#1116)
Attempting to assert that Hanjour was a qualified pilot and capable enough to perform the observed maneuvers is simply a lie and a distortion of the clear facts - Hanjour was incompetent as a pilot. It cannot be characterized any other way. To assert otherwise is simply disinformation. Why do you find it necessary to use disinformation tactics?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#1121. To: FormerLurker (#1118)
"... The certificate was issued by Daryl M. Strong, an independent contractor for the FAA, with an "Airplane Multiengine Land" rating. To obtain the certificate, Hanjour’s records show he flew his check ride in a Piper PA 23-150 "Apache", a four-seat twin-engine plane, which Hanjour was in command of for 14.8 hours of the 27 hours completed for the test.35
Contrary to the Washington Post’s assertion that this certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets", in fact it only allowed him to begin passenger jet training. Hanjour did so, only to fail the class.36 As the Associated Press reported, the "certification allowed him to begin passenger jet training at an Arizona flight school despite having what instructors later described as limited flying skills and an even more limited command of English."37
Furthermore, there remains an open question about whether Hanjour was actually qualified to receive that certificate in the first place. According to Heather Awsumb, a spokeswoman for Professional Airways Systems Specialists (PASS), a union that represents FAA employees, "The real problem is that regular oversight is handed over to private industry", since private contractors "receive between $200 and $300 for each check flight. If they get a reputation for being tough, they won’t get any business." ..."
#1122. To: Original_Intent (#1116)
Still catapulting the lies I see.
#1123. To: James Deffenbach (#1112)
What I want to know is where do you find such people (dumber than blowviator) outside mental institutions?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#1124. To: buckeroo (#1122)
#1125. To: Original_Intent (#1119)
I might have misremembered
#1126. To: buckeroo (#1122)
When FL repeatedly spun Hanjour's background.... look it up your self BSer .... I jumped in and posted the documentation about those certifications AND his records of flight instruction to INCLUDE his instructor.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#1127. To: Original_Intent (#1124)
Wrong again - the assertions made, when and where, are not relevant to exposing your misrepresentations.
#1128. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#1125)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#1129. To: FormerLurker (#1126)
And according to his instructors, he was a terrible student and even worse pilot. One said, "he couldn't fly at all". One school called the FAA to verify that he actually possessed a license, thinking that what he presented was a fake, since he lacked any of the skills required of a person holding that sort of license.
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.
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