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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: 9/11 demolition theory challenged
Source: BBC
URL Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6987965.stm
Published: Sep 11, 2007
Author: staff
Post Date: 2010-07-17 17:31:29 by buckeroo
Ping List: *4um PSY-OP Club*     Subscribe to *4um PSY-OP Club*
Keywords: None
Views: 23175
Comments: 1209

An analysis of the World Trade Center collapse has challenged a conspiracy theory surrounding the 9/11 attacks.

The study by a Cambridge University engineer demonstrates that once the collapse of the twin towers began, it was destined to be rapid and total.

One of many conspiracy theories proposes that the buildings came down in a manner consistent with a "controlled demolition".

The study suggests a different explanation for how the towers fell.

Over 2,800 people were killed in the devastating attacks on New York.

After reviewing television footage of the Trade Center's destruction, engineers had proposed the idea of "progressive collapse" to explain the way the twin towers disintegrated on 11 September 2001.

This mode of structural failure describes the way the building fell straight down rather than toppling, with each successive floor crushing the one beneath (an effect called "pancaking").

Resistance to collapse

Dr Keith Seffen set out to test mathematically whether this chain reaction really could explain what happened in Lower Manhattan six years ago. The findings are to be published in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics.

Previous studies have tended to focus on the initial stages of collapse, showing that there was an initial, localised failure around the aircraft impact zones, and that this probably led to the progressive collapse of both structures.

Man stands amid rubble of the World Trade Center, AFP/Getty Once the collapse began, it was destined to be "rapid and total" In other words, the damaged parts of the tower were bound to fall down, but it was not clear why the undamaged building should have offered little resistance to these falling parts.

"The initiation part has been quantified by many people; but no one had put numbers on the progressive collapse," Dr Seffen told the BBC News website.

Dr Seffen was able to calculate the "residual capacity" of the undamaged building: that is, simply speaking, the ability of the undamaged structure to resist or comply with collapse.

His calculations suggest the residual capacity of the north and south towers was limited, and that once the collapse was set in motion, it would take only nine seconds for the building to go down.

This is just a little longer than a free-falling coin, dropped from the top of either tower, would take to reach the ground.

'Fair assumption'

The University of Cambridge engineer said his results therefore suggested progressive collapse was "a fair assumption in terms of how the building fell".

"One thing that confounded engineers was how falling parts of the structure ploughed through undamaged building beneath and brought the towers down so quickly," said Dr Seffen.

The south tower of the World Trade Center collapses, AP Conspiracy theorists see evidence of a "controlled detonation" He added that his calculations showed this was a "very ordinary thing to happen" and that no other intervention, such as explosive charges laid inside the building, was needed to explain the behaviour of the buildings.

The controlled detonation idea, espoused on several internet websites, asserts that the manner of collapse is consistent with synchronised rows of explosives going off inside the World Trade Center.

This would have generated a demolition wave that explained the speed, uniformity and similarity between the collapses of both towers.

Conspiracy theorists assert that these explosive "squibs" can actually be seen going off in photos and video footage of the collapse. These appear as ejections of gas and debris from the sides of the building, well below the descending rubble.

Other observers say this could be explained by debris falling down lift shafts and impacting on lower floors during the collapse.

Dr Seffen's research could help inform future building design. Subscribe to *4um PSY-OP Club*

[Thread Locked]   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


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#1. To: All (#0)

Another great supporting work is here: What Did and Did Not Cause Collapse of World Trade Center Twin Towers in New York? By Zdenk P. Bažant, Hon.M.ASCE1; Jia-Liang Le2; Frank R. Greening3; and David B. Benson; it is a bit difficult for some with a minimum of mathematics and physics exposure but if you are serious, it is a link for your reference library.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   17:44:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: buckeroo (#0)

Two problems:

1. The videos that show the collapse.

2. The reason the collapse was initiated. There is no proof that the aircraft, or fires, are what set it off. As well an explosive demolition would show basically the same signature, and the theory does not explain why one tower took about 14 seconds to collapse and the other identical tower 22-23 seconds.

For a theory to be valid it must account for all of the observed phenomena.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-17   17:53:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: All (#1)

In a nutshell the above illustration provides a visual aid to the FACTUAL issues.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   17:53:38 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Original_Intent (#2)

1. The videos that show the collapse.

And? It appears that streams of material are shot out as though a demolition charge occured? Explain the appearance to me.

2. The reason the collapse was initiated. There is no proof that the aircraft, or fires, are what set it off. As well an explosive demolition would show basically the same signature, and the theory does not explain why one tower took about 14 seconds to collapse and the other identical tower 22-23 seconds.

Do you deny the flt 11 and flt 175 did not crash into the upper floors of the buildings?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   17:57:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: buckeroo, All (#0)

Who is Barry Jennings ?

'Pull it !' by Larry Silverstein and the WTC 7 singers


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-17   18:00:17 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Rotara (#5)

Lets get the twin towers out of the way, first..... later we shall review BLDG 7.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   18:03:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: buckeroo, 4 (#0)

The study by a Cambridge University engineer demonstrates that once the collapse of the twin towers began, it was destined to be rapid and total.

That insane statement ended it for me.

A collapse of anything, leaves all sorts of rubble.

The towers were reduced to carcinogenic powder and molten steel which smoldered for months.

Dr.Seffen is a loon who should be stripped of any accreditation(s) that he's purchased from on-line schools.

Lod  posted on  2010-07-17   18:06:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Lod (#7)

That insane statement ended it for me.

Why?

A collapse of anything, leaves all sorts of rubble.

Rubble was everywhere and pulverized at that.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   18:09:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Original_Intent (#2)

Jet fuel doesn't do this:

Previously molten metal was found "flowing like lava" by the FDNY in the basements of all 3 WTC High-rises. Hydrocarbon fires can burn at a maximum temperature of 1,800°F which is about 1,000° short of the beginning melting temperature of steel. Where did the molten metal come from? Why do FEMA and NIST deny its existence?

The 4- to 20-ton steel columns & beams were broken apart at bolted and welded connections and ejected laterally up to 500 feet.

This is the World Trade Center exploding.

This is an acknowledged explosion. Can you tell the difference?

Two top-down implosions.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-17   18:12:34 ET  (4 images) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: buckeroo (#0)

9/11 demolition theory challenged

Challenged by morons and stooges, who cares?

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-17   18:23:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: buckeroo (#0)

he University of Cambridge engineer said his results therefore suggested progressive collapse was "a fair assumption in terms of how the building fell".

Fair assumption for idiots, but a damn dumb one for anyone else.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-17   18:26:34 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: RickyJ (#10)

Challenged by morons and stooges, who cares?

No facts? Just a silly post?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   18:29:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: RickyJ (#11)

Fair assumption for idiots, but a damn dumb one for anyone else.

No facts? Just another silly post?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   18:29:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: buckeroo (#0)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-17   18:36:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: buckeroo (#0)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-17   18:38:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: All (#3)

Crush-up phase

lol

this is a joke, right?


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-17   18:45:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: wudidiz, Buckeroo (#16)

But Wud......the article says: "The study suggests"

It suggests that it all happened as the government claims sort of, not really in a definative manner but surely in a suggestive manner.

And, derb nub it, that's good enough for Buck.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-17   18:58:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: abraxas (#17)

Oh, it's just a suggestion?

Well, that certainly makes it much more easy to accept.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-17   19:01:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: buckeroo (#6)

I'll throw out the Twin Towers and focus on WTC 7, thank you.

It's plenty all by itself...


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-17   19:04:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: wudidiz (#18)

lol.........I just noticed your newly minted tagline too.

And, I like my suggestions to be served with a grain of salt.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-17   19:07:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Rotara (#19)

It's plenty all by itself...

But the results of WTC7 were a function of the twin towers earlier collapse. And the trigger mechanism is not the same.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   19:12:13 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: James Deffenbach (#9)

Jet fuel doesn't do this:

Previously molten metal was found "flowing like lava" by the FDNY in the basements of all 3 WTC High-rises. Hydrocarbon fires can burn at a maximum temperature of 1,800°F which is about 1,000° short of the beginning melting temperature of steel. Where did the molten metal come from? Why do FEMA and NIST deny its existence?

The 4- to 20-ton steel columns & beams were broken apart at bolted and welded connections and ejected laterally up to 500 feet.

This is the World Trade Center exploding.

This is an acknowledged explosion. Can you tell the difference?

Bump.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-17   19:15:22 ET  (4 images) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: buckeroo (#21)

But the results of WTC7 were a function of the twin towers earlier collapse. And the trigger mechanism is not the same.

lol........what "function" and what "trigger mechanism" are you referring to Buck?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-17   19:18:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: wudidiz (#22)

Thanks buddy.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-17   19:20:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Rotara, buckeroo, turtle (#5) (Edited)

'Pull it !' by Larry Silverstein and the WTC 7 singers

In the demolition industry, "pull" a building means "pull down with cables," not "explode with explosives."

Silverstein of course, in his phone con with Fire Chief Daniel Nigro, uses "pull" to mean "pull the firefighters back because we've already had a terrible loss of life"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-17   19:20:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: AGAviator (#25)

I slip in with a very quick debunk on this one...

The insurmountable problem with this explanation of Silverstein’s statement is that there were no firefighters inside WTC 7. Dr. Shyam Sunder, of the National Institutes of Standards and Technology (NIST), which investigated the collapse of WTC 7, is quoted in Popular Mechanics (9/11: Debunking the Myths, March, 2005) as saying: “There was no firefighting in WTC 7”. The FEMA report on the collapses, from May, 2002, also says about the WTC 7 collapse: “no manual firefighting operations were taken by FDNY”. And an article by James Glanz in the New York Times on November 29, 2001 says about WTC 7: “By 11:30 a.m., the fire commander in charge of that area, Assistant Chief Frank Fellini, ordered firefighters away from it for safety reasons.”

http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/wtc7/archive/nytimes_112901.html

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-17   19:26:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: AGAviator (#25)

Another little debunking of this notion that "pull it" doesn't mean demolish the building:

Some defenders of the official 9/11 story say that the term “pull it” is not demolition lingo for “bring it down by controlled demolition”. However, the same PBS video in which Silverstein makes his admission, contains the following exchange:

(unidentified construction worker): “Hello? Oh, we’re getting ready to pull building six.” Luis Mendes, NYC Dept of Design and Construction: “We had to be very careful how we demolished building six. We were worried about the building six coming down and then damaging the slurry walls, so we wanted that particular building to fall within a certain area”.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-17   19:28:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: buckeroo (#0)

I'll stack a thousand engineers and architects up against your one...

www.youtube.com/watch? v=5Bcrs3bm5G4

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-17   19:35:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: wudidiz, James Deffenbach, Original_Intent, AGAviator (#22)

Jet fuel doesn't do this ....... (etc)

Sightings of “pools of molten metal” within the rubble pile, purportedly produced by planted thermite- based incendiary devices. But all of the supposed evidence is entirely anecdotal, and is refuted by the facts in the NIST 2005 report.

You can read this report by NIST in two separate pdfs: Volume 1 and Volume 2 .....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   19:38:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: buckeroo (#21)

Bullshit.

When you want to get shredded (again) let me know.

I don't need the Twin Towers (or actually even #7) to convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was mass collusion across the government spectrum to pull off this false flag crime against US.


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-17   19:38:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: abraxas (#23)

lol........what "function" and what "trigger mechanism" are you referring to Buck?

God bless you for spending your precious time engaging serial spinners like AGitprop and bohicAROO...intellectually dishonest posters don't excite me so much anymore, especially when frauds like these have been shown on many occasions to be less than honest, at the very least.


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-17   19:43:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Rotara (#30)

I don't need the Twin Towers (or actually even #7) to convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was mass collusion across the government spectrum to pull off this false flag crime against US.

Let's assume you are correct. Beyond circumstantial evidence .... hearsay .... and all those websites that collaborate in a similar way ..... can you provide one insider witness who (or simple testimony) was involved in the planning and execution of the activities in any way?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   19:43:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: buckeroo, Rotara (#32)

..... can you provide one insider witness who (or simple testimony) was involved in the planning and execution of the activities in any way?

There was one relating to building 7. Can't remember his name. Anyway he was disappeared before he could testify. He wasn't involved in the planning but witnessed what happened with building 7.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-17   19:57:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle (#26)

"Keep your eye on that building. It'll be coming down...The structural integrity is not there."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-17   20:04:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: buckeroo (#32)

not to pigs like you

Remember Barry Jennings ? Who is Barry Jennings ??


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-17   20:06:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: buckeroo (#29)

Sightings of “pools of molten metal” within the rubble pile, purportedly produced by planted thermite- based incendiary devices

The pools of molten metal within rubble piles were caused by firefighters post crash constantly spraying the debris with water.

Putting water onto iron heated above 300-400 degrees creates an exothermic reaction that was widely used in the 1800's.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-17   20:07:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: AGAviator (#34)

Er, are you simply going to ignore the EXPLOSIONS heard clearly in your own vids? You know, the kind of explosions that occur in controlled demolition right before the buildings fall down.........

Aren't you going to respond to the fact that ol' Larry Silverstein couldn't have meant "pull fire fighters" when there were no fire fighters in the building according to multiple government sources?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-17   20:08:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: farmfriend (#33)

None of them - and I mean NONE of them - want to talk about Barry Jennings.

At least zero HERE so far...


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-17   20:08:32 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Rotara (#35)

not to pigs like you

Off to bozoland for ya, laddie!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   20:10:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Rotara (#35)

lol.........OH NO!!! What ever shall you do? Buck has gone and put you on bozo filter.......oh, the horror of it all!

Oh, de humanity!!

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-17   20:12:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: buckeroo (#39)

perfect, asswipe


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-17   20:14:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: abraxas (#40) (Edited)

yeah, well...i don't exactly know HOW MUCH counseling i'll need to maybe get through this. /thick sarcasm


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-17   20:15:32 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Original_Intent (#2)

As well an explosive demolition would show basically the same signature, and the theory does not explain why one tower took about 14 seconds to collapse and the other identical tower 22-23 seconds.

The two towers were "hit" differently and the central core supports were damaged differently as a result. Check this out: Impact to Collapse by NOVA.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   20:17:46 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Rotara (#42)

Lol.......I have a sinister plan to pay for all of that counseling. Draft a ten step plan: How to get onto Buck's Bozo Filter. Many at 4um will open their wallets happily for such a valuable, dare I say priceless, information. They will pay double if the plan applies to AGAviator.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-17   20:20:34 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Rotara (#38)

None of them - and I mean NONE of them - want to talk about Barry Jennings.

At least zero HERE so far...

That was the one. Sigh yes no one ever brings him up.

New Information on the Death of 911 Eyewitness Barry Jennings

April 16, 2009

By Jack Blood

www.wFUradio.com

www.deadlinelive.info

Barry Jennings, a key 9/11 eyewitness who was an emergency coordinator for the New York Housing Authority, passed away last August 2008 at age 53 from undisclosed circumstances. Mr. Jennings was an eyewitness to the devastation of the World Trade center towers on September 11th 2001.

On the morning of 911 Barry Jennings with Michael Hess, (one of Rudy Giuliani’s highest ranking appointed officials, New York city’s corporation counsel), entered the famed Building 7.

It was just after the first attack on the North tower, but before the second plane hit the South Tower, when Barry Jennings escorted Michael Hess to the World Trade Center Tower 7. Mr. Jennings recalls a large number of police officers in the lobby of WTC 7 when they arrived. The two men went up to the 23rd floor, but could not get in, so they went back to the lobby and the police took them up in the freight elevator for a second try. When they arrived on level 23, at the Office of Emergency Management (FEMA),) they found it had been recently deserted, “coffee that was on the desk, smoke was still coming off the coffee, I saw half eaten sandwiches”.

At that point he made some phone calls, and an un-named individual told them to “leave, and leave right away”. Jennings and Hess then proceeded to the stairs, and made it to level 6, when there was an explosion, and the stairwell collapsed from under their feet, Mr. Jennings was actually hanging, and had to climb back up. They made it back up to level 8, where Barry Jennings had a view of the twin towers, both buildings were still standing. This is an important detail, as many debunkers have used Mr. Jennings statements out of context to claim the damage came to WTC 7 from the towers collapsing, not the case according, to Mr. Jennings.

When they made it to the lobby, Mr. Jennings found it destroyed and littered with dead bodies. He said it looked like, “King Kong had came through it and stepped on it, (it was) so destroyed, I didn’t know where I was. So destroyed that they had to take me out through a hole in the wall, that I believe the fire department made to get me out.” Shortly after he made it out, he was seen on several news channels telling his story.

Mr. Jennings was admittedly confused as to why Building 7 had to come down at all, and does not accept the official reason that the noises he heard were from a fuel oil tank, “I know what I heard, I heard explosions”.

Jennings testimony was recorded by Loose Change for the Final Cut version of the extremely popular documentary, but was edited out at the final stage due to Jennings misgivings about losing his job, and endangering his family.

The BBC later interviewed Jennings for a “911 debunking special” and Jennings seemed to retract the testimony given to Loose Change. Subsequently the creators of the film released the original interview to protect their own credibility.

Barry Jennings passed away shortly thereafter and coincidentally just a few days before the long awaited NIST report on Building 7 was released to the public. It is quite possible that Jennings would have exposed the cover story of NIST, and their overall excuse that the 47 story building was the first and only skyscraper felled by fire. He never got that chance.

New Information

Yesterday, April 15th 2009 I was contacted by “Loose Change” director, and narrator Dylan Avery who said that he had recently begun investigating the death of Barry Jennings, and had found some new information relating to his death.

It seems that there is a very good possibility that Jennings’ death could have been due to foul play. Though the investigations are on going, initial findings are somewhat alarming. The conclusion is still forthcoming, but I was shocked by what I heard.

It seems that Dylan had hired a private investigator to look into Jennings death which remains shrouded in mystery. His motive was simply to bring some closure to the life of Barry Jennings, and in doing so to honor the memory of this brave American. The Investigator ended up referring the case to Law enforcement before refunding his pay, and told Dylan never to contact him again. Very unusual to say the least. Dylan also paid a visit to the Jennings home. He found it vacant and for sale.

Personally, something is really beginning to stink here. Why would a highly paid PI refuse to continue his investigation? Why did he refer the matter to police? He is not talking. What is he afraid of. Was he warned to cease and desist? If so by whom? These are some of the new questions revolving around the Jennings case.

In every major cover up from the JFK assassination to Iran Contra, we can see one common thread. The untimely death of eyewitnesses. Barry Jennings was not only an important and most credible eyewitness, but he openly refuted much of the government, and media version of events. He was a liability.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-17   20:24:17 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: farmfriend (#45)

Barry Jennings RIP

None of these neobuttlickers can hold a candle to this man's love of our practically dead nation.


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-17   21:20:23 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: farmfriend (#45)

I don't understand your post.

If Jennings had entered WTC7 after the North tower collapsed why wouldn't there be pandemonium throughout the area, EVERYWHERE?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   21:26:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: buckeroo (#43)

The two towers were "hit" differently and the central core supports were damaged differently as a result. Check this out: Impact to Collapse by NOVA.

What type of plane hit WTC 7 again? You know, the one that the BBC reported had collapsed 25 minutes before it did.

Check this out: THE WTC WAS DESIGNED TO SURVIVE THE IMPACT OF A BOEING 767

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-17   21:27:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: abraxas, Rotara (#40)

lol.........OH NO!!! What ever shall you do? Buck has gone and put you on bozo filter.......oh, the horror of it all!

Oh, de humanity!!

D@mn! Rotara has always been lucky!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-17   21:30:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Rotara (#42)

yeah, well...i don't exactly know HOW MUCH counseling i'll need to maybe get through this.

You will get over it in the fullness of time. It might take as long as three nanoseconds but I know that the clouds will break and the sun will shine for you again. Hang in there.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-17   21:32:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Original_Intent (#48)

What type of plane hit WTC 7 again?

Of course no aircraft struck WTC7.

But it was damaged from the collapse of the twin towers earlier in the day.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   21:33:20 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: buckeroo (#51)

What type of plane hit WTC 7 again?

Of course no aircraft struck WTC7.

But it was damaged from the collapse of the twin towers earlier in the day.

How so? And don't try and dredge up the Pop Mechanics piece because it has already been proven false - they used a picture of WTC 6 which was damaged by debris, and did not fall - it was later demolished at great expense, and then reversed and falsely represented as "secret photos" of WTC 7.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-17   21:47:34 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: James Deffenbach, abraxas, Rotara, buckeroo (#49)

lol.........OH NO!!! What ever shall you do? Buck has gone and put you on bozo filter.......oh, the horror of it all!

Oh, de humanity!!

D@mn! Rotara has always been lucky!

buck never bozoed me!

WTH?


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-17   21:48:20 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Original_Intent (#52)

How so? And don't try and dredge up the Pop Mechanics piece because it has already been proven false - they used a picture of WTC 6 which was damaged by debris, and did not fall - it was later demolished at great expense, and then reversed and falsely represented as "secret photos" of WTC 7.

Ah, but you forget. 7 was hit by something like three drops of Magickal Jet Fuel™, Santa Claus fell out of his sleigh and bounced off both 1 and 2 and ricocheted onto 7 and if all that wasn't already enough the Easter Bunny got ticked off and threw an egg at it!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-17   21:56:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: wudidiz (#53)

buck never bozoed me!

WTH?

LOL!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-17   21:56:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: buckeroo (#0)

Stop all the distractions. The fact is what happened on 9/11 could not happen unless the government was complicit. Either they were directly responsible or they facilitated the attacks by others. This is not the first time the government has been involved in this kind of crap...

National Security Agency entitled Body of Secrets, author James Bamford highlights a set of proposals on Cuba by the Joint Chiefs of Staff codenamed OPERATION NORTHWOODS. This document, titled “Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba” was provided by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the key component of Northwoods. Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba. These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake “Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington,” including “sink[ing] a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated),” faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a “Remember the Maine” incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage. Bamford himself writes that Operation Northwoods “may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government.”

www.attackonamerica.net/operationnorthwoods.htm

www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf

www.historycommons.org/en...p?entity=_operation_40__1

www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKcondor.htm

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/dec/02/usa.books

www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/IranContra.html

bush_is_a_moonie  posted on  2010-07-17   22:01:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Original_Intent (#52)

And don't try and dredge up the Pop Mechanics piece because it has already been proven false

ROTFL

How about, Final Report on WTC7 - NIST, ever read it? If so, please comment.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   22:04:41 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: buckeroo (#57)

Cite your specific reference - not the totality of a multi-thousand page report.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-17   22:07:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: bush_is_a_moonie (#56)

The fact is what happened on 9/11 could not happen unless the government was complicit.

I am maintaining that the plans and actual execution for the events of 9/11 went very smoothly considering that the overall devastation inflicted was more than an "eye-popper."

The US government and any of its agencies or for that matter any authorized government institution(s) within the USA could not have performed that series of tragedies because 1) there are no personnel in the USA that would consider an official act of hostility or tyranny against the people and government bodies and 2) it would have been bungled and there would be later eye-witness accounts.

Your list of links is fairly extensive. I will look them over later this evening.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   22:11:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Original_Intent (#58)

Cite your specific reference - not the totality of a multi-thousand page report.

Hold on there pardner! WHOA! Have you read that document at anytime?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   22:12:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle (#37)

Er, are you simply going to ignore the EXPLOSIONS heard clearly in your own vids?

Not everything that makes a noise is an ***explosion.***

"Explosions" start out by hurling objects in all directions - including upwards - at hundreds to thousands of miles per hour in a huge initial blast cloud, which gets smaller as time goes on.

Events which start with clouds that get bigger, and eject items only sideways or down at less than free fall speeds, don't fall into that category.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-17   22:35:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: AGAviator, abraxas, buckeroo, turtle (#61)

How about the CNN footage of the planes with pods underneath firing explosives into the building before they hit. People have tried to explain them away as shadows but that is clearly not what they are.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-17   22:44:32 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: AGAviator (#61)

Do you mean such as blowing all the windows out on the sub floors of the WTC buildings?

Like these eye witnesses report at this link: www.youtube.com/watch? v=Jcg8hMEmTVE&feature=related

People thought the subway exploded. The janitor saved peoples' lives from these explosions. Are you saying you know more than all of these people who were right there and heard these explosions, saw fireballs emerging from the elevator lobby, watched glass blow out all over the place? People burned ON THE SUBFLOORS with their skin hanging off......tell them it wasn't an explosion coming from the basement.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-17   22:44:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: buckeroo (#59)

there are no personnel in the USA that would consider an official act of hostility or tyranny against the people

Spend time reviewing the history of the CIA, Orlando Bosch and Posada. Surely you don't believe nobody in the US government would not consider an attack on our country for political, financial or other reasons. Also spend some time reading Moron Oliver North's diary entries at the National Security Archive - GWU. This should dispel any ideas you might have about our own government and personnel refusing to engage in these types of things.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely

bush_is_a_moonie  posted on  2010-07-17   22:45:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: abraxas, AGAviator (#34)

"Keep your eye on that building. It'll be coming down...The structural integrity is not there."

More bs from the liar movement.

Of course you know this.

Just saying the structural integrity was not there does not make it so.

The structural integrity was there.

Until it was blown to smithereens by explosives.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-17   22:48:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: farmfriend (#62)

CNN like all the other major media are controlled by the govt and publish/print/show only those things approved by the government. A friend I went to college with years ago is now a VP of an MSNBC division and lives in Connecticut. I had a conversation with her a few years ago and she told me I would be surprised by restrictions put on the media by the govt. It is called disinformation.

bush_is_a_moonie  posted on  2010-07-17   22:48:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: bush_is_a_moonie (#64)

I enjoy reading a lot of your posts and I agree with you about being skeptical and suspicious of an over-reaching government; we must be vigilant to hold-on to what little is left.

But I don't believe for a second that a government entity in the USA would knowingly perpetrate an act against the people. And as I expressed, there is no evidence or witnesses of such an act occurring.

So, on this thread, lets review the government's reports of what happened BEFORE dismissing it altogether and adopting other ideas. All of the pdfs are available on the NIST website.... the hotlinks that I want to encourage ..... I have posted on this thread.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   22:54:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: wudidiz, AGAviator (#65)

When I hear explosions I tend to think that the buildings where those explosions occured would, naturally, have a loss in structural integrity. Firefighters would be bright enough to take this logical leap as well.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-17   22:54:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: *9-11*, AGAviator, all (#34)

.

Does this guy and a few of the others seem like actors? I think this video is fake.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-17   22:57:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: wudidiz (#65)

The structural integrity was there.

After the collisions of the North and South towers, you are WRONG. The aircraft seriously weakened the central support system(s) while jet fuel ravaged six simultaneous floors that upon collision ignited further impairing the same support structures WHILE the active/passive fire control systems were ineffective.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   22:58:46 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Rotara (#70)

How'd you get him to bozo you?


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-17   23:05:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: wudidiz (#71)

Run a 4um search of my posts to BOHICAroo recently and you'll find the path to true liberty...


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-17   23:22:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Rotara (#72)

See, that little how too get on the bozo list book would be a big seller. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-17   23:26:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Rotara (#70)

After the collisions of the North and South towers, you are WRONG.

It wasn't until after the towers collided that I was wrong.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-17   23:27:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Lod, Eric Stratton (#74) (Edited)

As to free-fall, I mean it didn't free-fall from top to bottom. WTC7 met less resistance increasing acceleration because of the accumulative mass from the upper floors on the lower floors.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   23:34:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: buckeroo (#75)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-17   23:37:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Eric Stratton (#76)

Please explain.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   23:37:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: Rotara, buckeroo (#39)

see what you've done, you made bucky cry like a little school girl; again!


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-17   23:38:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: buckeroo (#75)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-17   23:39:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: buckeroo (#77)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-17   23:41:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: buckeroo (#77)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-17   23:42:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: Eric Stratton (#79)

I see where you are going. And WTC7 went fast. But that doesn't mean controlled demolition (CD) was used by anyone.

So explain your position that CD was used.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   23:44:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: buckeroo (#82)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-17   23:49:17 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: buckeroo (#47)

bucky read this out loud for all to hear.
At that point he made some phone calls, and an un-named individual told them to “leave, and leave right away”. Jennings and Hess then proceeded to the stairs, and made it to level 6, when there was an explosion, and the stairwell collapsed from under their feet, Mr. Jennings was actually hanging, and had to climb back up. They made it back up to level 8, where Barry Jennings had a view of the twin towers, both buildings were still standing. This is an important detail, as many debunkers have used Mr. Jennings statements out of context to claim the damage came to WTC 7 from the towers collapsing, not the case according, to Mr. Jennings.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-17   23:49:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: buckeroo (#82)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-17   23:49:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: buckeroo (#67)

But I don't believe for a second that a government entity in the USA would knowingly perpetrate an act against the people.

Operation Northwoods?

Gulf of Tonkin?

Sinking of the USS Maine?

Agent Orange?

Depleted Uranium?

The US government didn't kill enough of her own people through duplicity in all or any of the aforementioned to at least warrant some questioning and critical thinking into believing ANY government statement?

If the US had nothing to hide, it wouldn't have strong armed any and all investigation into 911--beginning with failure to properly fund one and going on to outright failure to comply with any and all information requests necessary to even look into this matter of killing 3000 citizens.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-17   23:57:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: Eric Stratton (#83)

Questions for you:

1) Was WTC7 structurally damaged as a result of the twin towers collapse? 2) Were fires within the WTC7 building raving all day as a result of the twin towers collapse?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   23:58:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: IRTorqued (#84)

Jennings and Hess then proceeded to the stairs, and made it to level 6, when there was an explosion, and the stairwell collapsed from under their feet, Mr. Jennings was actually hanging, and had to climb back up. They made it back up to level 8, where Barry Jennings had a view of the twin towers, both buildings were still standing.

Got link?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-17   23:59:53 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: buckeroo (#60)

Cite your specific reference - not the totality of a multi-thousand page report.

Hold on there pardner! WHOA! Have you read that document at anytime?

You cited an entire document as a reference. That is not a refutation. It is an evasion. Cite where in the report your refutation comes from - page and paragraph(s).

My reading habits are not the question. You attempted to evade the point and I am not going to let you.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   0:01:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: Eric Stratton (#76)

now correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the upper building mass sitting on top of the lower building mass from the day the building was completed and resisted falling all those years up to 9-11-01?


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-18   0:06:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: Original_Intent (#89)

Two ways, 1) fire damage throughout the day and 2) structural damage.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   0:06:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: Original_Intent (#89)

You attempted to evade the point and I am not going to let you.

And I am not evading you or anyone. That is why I chose to initiate a thread with the title banner you see.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   0:08:49 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: buckeroo (#87)

1) Was WTC7 structurally damaged as a result of the twin towers collapse? 2) Were fires within the WTC7 building raving all day as a result of the twin towers collapse?

Sheesh, Buck. Building Seven was the LEAST damaged of the surrounding buldings. Buildings 3,4,5, and 6 were in far worse shape and NONE FELL DOWN until the planned demolition day for each one.

No, the fires WERE NOT RAGING ALL DAY. The first tower fell into it's own footprint after burning less than two hours........the other one, the one hit first, burned for four hours prior to collapse. That's not even a quarter of a day. Plus, the fires raged only for moments as the JET FUEL BURNED UP IN AN OXYGEN RICH ENVIRONMENT. It wasn't a forge.......it was open air.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   0:09:22 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: buckeroo (#88)

scroll up to Farmfriend's post number 45 she posted it to you. dang! you members of the liar movement want everything handed to you just like the official fairy tale talking points the government provides you with.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-18   0:10:50 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: abraxas (#93)

Building Seven was the LEAST damaged of the surrounding buldings.

When did WTC7 fall? Hours after the twin towers collapsed. Through that entire period of time, fires were observed increasing on many of the floors. Meanwhile there was no method to contain or control those same fires as the fire sprinkler system was non-performing.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   0:22:52 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: abraxas (#93)

another item of note is that the investigators looking into the collapse of building seven were denied access to the pile of rubble that once was building seven and were instead taken to building six and told to use it as reference to building sevens collapse. this could be why the so called 9-11 commission completely ignored the collapse of building seven in their report, maybe they weren't willing to stick their collective necks out that far as to report on an investigation that never took place.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-18   0:22:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: IRTorqued (#94)

scroll up to Farmfriend's post number 45 she posted it to you.

Her post is confusing because the activities described was AFTER the first tower collapsed. If so, there would be pandemonium everywhere.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   0:24:46 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: buckeroo (#87)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-18   0:25:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: IRTorqued (#90)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-18   0:25:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: buckeroo (#97)

bahala na mas tangah.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-18   0:26:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Eric Stratton (#98)

Thank you BUT I am hoping to see some data beyond any beliefs. Is there any HARD evidence that WTC7 (or for that matter the twins) that clearly identifies CD?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   0:27:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: buckeroo (#101)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-18   0:28:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: buckeroo, All (#101)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-18   0:28:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: IRTorqued (#100)

Barry Jennings, a key 9/11 eyewitness who was an emergency coordinator for the New York Housing Authority, passed away last August 2008 at age 53 from undisclosed circumstances. Mr. Jennings was an eyewitness to the devastation of the World Trade center towers on September 11th 2001.

On the morning of 911 Barry Jennings with Michael Hess, (one of Rudy Giuliani’s highest ranking appointed officials, New York city’s corporation counsel), entered the famed Building 7.

It was just after the first attack on the North tower, but before the second plane hit the South Tower, when Barry Jennings escorted Michael Hess to the World Trade Center Tower 7.

I highlighted her point.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   0:30:06 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: Eric Stratton (#102)

So refute the official reports and show that CD was used. If you can't, then fine ... enjoy your belief system.....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   0:31:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: buckeroo (#95)

Fires alone have NEVER brought a 47 story building down Buck. NEVER.

One in China burned for 47 hours and still didn't fall.

There was no jet fuel in that building. No plane hit that building. The surrounding buildings had MORE FIRE and MORE DAMAGE, yet didn't fall. But you know what those other buildings DIDN'T HAVE? They didn't have THOUSANDS OF SEC files against corporations, didn't have CIA files, didn't have FBI files. What a winfall that building seven fell into it's own foot print and not those other buildings that didn't contain such IMPORTANT and COSTLY case files but had FAR MORE DAMAGE.

Do explain why those fire sprinklers conveniently didn't work in the building that was the COMMAND CENTER for attacks, wherein Guiliani was supposed to be barking orders, but mysteriously didn't set foot in seven all day.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   0:31:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: Eric Stratton, James Deffenbach (#99)

it would seem James explanation must be the case, it was that danged Magickal Jet Fuel™, that wreaked havoc that fateful day.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-18   0:32:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: buckeroo (#104)

wow and you learned how to use the blink tag too, that must be why they made you a ranking member of the liar movement you are a down right genieass.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-18   0:36:32 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: buckeroo, All (#105)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-18   0:37:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: abraxas (#106)

ah but did they have a BBC reporter on hand? and if not who would have reported the collapse of that building in China some twenty minutes before the event?


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-18   0:39:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: Eric Stratton (#109)

If controlled demolition charges were used, where are the eye witnesses, the HARD evidence and how could such an event occur with shattering the glass from floor to floor to floor before each floor fell.

And if CD happened, where was the acoustic energy bouncing around or echoing all over NYC streets?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   0:41:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: IRTorqued (#110)

ah but did they have a BBC reporter on hand?

That BBC is so special......they must have prophets pretending to be news casters. Funny, but all the other sky scrapers that have had fires buring for MUCH longer than WTC7 didn't collapse at all, so the BBC prophets didn't give a heads up on pending buildings falling. lol

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   0:44:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: abraxas (#112)

funny thing is the BBC seems to have lost that reporter bimbo when questions started to flood in WRT her prophetess abilities. and what ever happened in the case of the titanium cored 400 ounce gold bars China got from the U.S. via London?


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-18   0:51:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: IRTorqued (#113)

and what ever happened in the case of the titanium cored 400 ounce gold bars China got from the U.S. via London?

I think we might know the answers to these relevant questions if we actually had a frickin' media in the US......but instead we have corporate toadies. Nothing to see here Looky Lous....move along now.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   1:00:06 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: abraxas, IRTorqued (#114)

It was Tungsten not Titanium. Titanium is actually worth something. Tungsten is relatively cheap, but has about the same weight as gold.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   1:04:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle, ccritter (#63)

Do you mean such as blowing all the windows out on the sub floors of the WTC buildings?

Show me some blast clouds sending things upwards, not just sideways and downward, at hundreds of MPH initial velocities, not just at speeds not even equalling sideways and downward speeds from gravity.

Then show me those blast clouds starting out big, and themselves expanding in all directions at hundreds of MPH, not clouds barely getting big as fast as dust- driven clouds expand.

Those scenarios would be explosions. Events falling short of these factors are not.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   1:09:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: AGAviator (#116)

Did you watch that video? The explosions were in the SUB FLOORS.

Why don't you watch it and explain to me how the eye witnesses are wrong and you are right.

They even talk about those dastardly blast clouds........burning their flesh and blowing them many feet away from where they were prior to the f'n explosions.

Shit, if you can't even watch the f'n video where the eye witnesses will tell you exactly what you are asking of me, then you are hopeless and you really don't want any answers to the questions you pose.

The witnesses clearly articulate AN EXPLOSION.......watch for yourself or shut your pie hole.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   1:14:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: buckeroo (#92)

You attempted to evade the point and I am not going to let you.

And I am not evading you or anyone. That is why I chose to initiate a thread with the title banner you see.

I do believe you are running a circuit of what Gerard Holmgren calls "The Fruit Loop".

So, you agreed that no plane hit WTC 7.

Then you cited unspecified damage from the collapse of the other 2 towers.

When asked to cite why you believe that, not including the discredited Pop Mechanics Disinfo piece you replied with a vague reference to the NIST Report (which itself has been shredded).

When asked to cite what and where specifically in the report you gave me the above. More evasion.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   1:16:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: abraxas, AGAviator (#117)

watch for yourself or shut your pie hole.

Objection your honor! There is no evidence that the accused puts pie in it. (I do so love double entendres.) ;-)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   1:18:53 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: abraxas, *9-11* (#0)

.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-18   1:35:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: Original_Intent (#115)

you are correct tungsten.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-18   1:45:13 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: IRTorqued (#121)

Roger.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   1:51:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: Original_Intent (#115)

we save broken tungsten cutters and bits a pound of them will get a person about seven federal reserve units. notice I didn't say dollars as those must by law contain three hundred and seventy-one grains and four sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or four hundred and sixteen grains of standard silver.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-18   1:54:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: abraxas (#114)

we have a media in the U.S. problem is they are controlled by the same group that controls the RNC and the DNC, over 50 percent of the presidential cabinet positions for the past 60 plus years have been filled by them and they are the CFR.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-18   2:04:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: Original_Intent (#118)

the only way any of the crap bucky copies and paste as part of his duties as a ranking member of the liar movement to have even a shred of accuracy is if that crap started out "once upon a time"


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-18   2:13:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle, Original_Indent (#117)

Why don't you watch it and explain to me how the eye witnesses are wrong and you are right.

Your eyewitnesses link what they call "explosions" and "fireballs" with an airplane hitting the WTC at that exact same moment in time.

With the damage going through the building core. And branching out at various elevator and stairwell locations.

So you wanna say the eyewitnesses are right? Fine with me. The eyewitnesses say the blasts they're commenting on are the direct results of the airplane crash. Other than that, they have more unanswered comments, where they express not knowing what caused what they experienced, than they have observations or answers.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   2:21:13 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: AGAviator (#126)

It is extremely dishonest to ignore the multiple witnesses who said very clearly that the explosions were on the SUB FLOORS of the building. You ignore the janitor who saved peoples' lives and was an eye witness to explosions in the parking garages and where the generators were kept.

How can you simply lie like that on a public forum? As if others won't notice that your are blatantly dishonest. What a dork!!

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   2:48:06 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: IRTorqued (#125)

the only way any of the crap bucky copies and paste as part of his duties as a ranking member of the liar movement to have even a shred of accuracy is if that crap started out "once upon a time"

LOL! I've been reading an interesting analysis of the NIST Report and it is an eye opener. They played some neat hanky panky with it complete with unsupported assumptions, unlabeled speculation mixed in with factual statement, and it made no analysis at all of how the collapse proceeded once it began. They just wave their magic wand and say it fell. Here's a link if you're curious: 911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/index.html

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   2:55:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: abraxas (#127)

Interesting how people are rapidly coming back up to "fighting trim" with a little bit of shill activity on the board. Despite the annoyance I think it has had some beneficial affects. I know it has caused me to tighten my game back up a bit. I didn't realize how sloppy I was getting with little real opposition. ;-)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   2:59:22 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: IRTorqued (#123)

we save broken tungsten cutters and bits a pound of them will get a person about seven federal reserve units. notice I didn't say dollars as those must by law contain three hundred and seventy-one grains and four sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or four hundred and sixteen grains of standard silver.

Understood on both aspects.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   3:01:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: Original_Intent, abraxas (#129)

I didn't realize how sloppy I was getting with little real opposition. ;-)

I would agree with that.

sorry, couldn't resist.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-18   3:31:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: buckeroo, All (#111)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-18   8:04:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: Original_Intent (#129)

Interesting how people are rapidly coming back up to "fighting trim" with a little bit of shill activity on the board.

You know, I'm willing to show some courtesy, maybe even sympathy, for a person who is a "true believer" but for those who outright lie to hold a position such mercy is not acceptable.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   10:56:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: farmfriend, Original_Intent (#131)

Yeah, I too have had it with all of this sloppy business around here.

Get it together, Sloppy Joe!! ; } lol

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   11:09:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: bush_is_a_moonie, buckeroo, turtle (#64) (Edited)

Also spend some time reading Moron Oliver North's diary entries at the National Security Archive - GWU. This should dispel any ideas you might have about our own government and personnel refusing to engage in these types of things.

Tell me where Oliver North admits anywhere to plotting and killing Americans.

I have never questioned whether there are are Americans within the various centers of power who were willing to look the other way to allow 911 to happen, from someone who had already spent a decade gradually escalating lethal worldwide attacks that took hundreds of lives and scores of American lives.

Neither is over one fourth of America's general population. Where they and I draw the line is a blanket pronouncement that a government that can't even run itself, somehow ran the largest conspiracy with world history with perfect precision without zero credible forensic or first hand eyewitness evidence of it to this day.

You Six Percenters are always going with the most extreme and most unprovable scenarios. This is a classic symptom of a false front operative who seeks to marginalize opposition into indefensible positions.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   11:45:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: abraxas (#127)

It is extremely dishonest to ignore the multiple witnesses who said very clearly that the explosions were on the SUB FLOORS of the building

It is extremely dishonest to say that the eyewitnesses in your own video directly link whatever they call explosions with an aircraft crashing into the building and having the results of that crash go down through the core column, the elevator shafts, and the stairwells.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   11:48:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: Original_Intent (#128)

The entire NIST theory rests upon the removal of all 80,000 square feet of the fireproofing/SFRM in each of the impact zones of the towers.

The problem is, NIST never provides any credible evidence of substantial testing and research of this said phenomenon.

Cartoon computer models are only as reliable as the data put in.

Mark

If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower

Kamala  posted on  2010-07-18   11:59:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: AGAviator (#136)

They discuss explosions at the time of initial plane impact and prior to the buildings collapsing........you are the only one cherry picking content to fit your story telling.

The explosions prior to the collapse, with people running away and describing said explosions are completely ignored by you because they don't fit with the story you are trying to pawn off on the lot of us.

The information I presented discusses multiple explosions at various times, you are the only one opting to cling to one explosion and ignore all the others. Very dishonest......and you know it.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   12:09:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: IRTorqued (#90)

now correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the upper building mass sitting on top of the lower building mass from the day the building was completed and resisted falling all those years up to 9-11-01?

Yeah, til all the unfortunate circumstances with Santa Claus, the Magickal Jet Fuel™ and the Easter Bunny. If that hadn't all happened at the same time maybe the tragedy could have been averted.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-18   12:11:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: IRTorqued (#107)

it would seem James explanation must be the case, it was that danged Magickal Jet Fuel™, that wreaked havoc that fateful day.

Yes, I am thankful that they never made but one batch of that. Ounce for ounce that stuff must be more powerful than atom bombs.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-18   12:15:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: IRTorqued (#125)

the only way any of the crap bucky copies and paste as part of his duties as a ranking member of the liar movement to have even a shred of accuracy is if that crap started out "once upon a time"

LOL!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-18   12:19:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: abraxas, buckeroo, (#138)

They discuss explosions at the time of initial plane impact and prior to the buildings collapsing........you are the only one cherry picking content to fit your story telling.

There were no explosions reported prior to aircraft impacts. Not on your posted, not on anybody else's other statements anywhere.

So now you have two sets of phenomena to explain, (1) Why explosions reported immediately after the aircraft crashes are not caused by the aircraft crashes, and (2) Why and how the explosions reported immediately after the aircraft crashes did take place with methods and means not at all connected to those crashes.

These explanations have not been done over the last 8 1/2 years in spite of thousands of claims made on hundreds or thousands of internet sites. Yet the people pushing these claims still claim after all this time that they are the ones with the truth and anybody who challenges their unproven versions of events is on the side of their imagined enemy, an all-powerful government that can't even manage its own wars and administration but nevertheless has been able to flawlessly pull off the most complex conspiracy in world history.

Now that's what's dishonest.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   12:54:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: Kamala (#137)

The entire NIST theory rests upon the removal of all 80,000 square feet of the fireproofing/SFRM in each of the impact zones of the towers.

The problem is, NIST never provides any credible evidence of substantial testing and research of this said phenomenon.

In addition to providing no validating data for the assumptions on the fireproofing or the angles at which the aircraft hit the building they provide no validation for the number of central column support beams severed, show them as smaller than the perimeter columns (which the were not they were substantially LARGER), and provide no sound justification for the internal temperatures that they allege existed in the core prior to collapse.

Cartoon computer models are only as reliable as the data put in.

And they are only as honest as the person running the model. You could make the model sing "The Battle Hymm of The Republic" with the right input parameters. NIST, very unscientifically for a purported investigation, assumes a conclusion and then sets out to validate that conclusion. Their supposed validation has so many flaws, half truths, and outright subterfuge that one cannot escape the conclusion that their modeling DID NOT validate their concluision and so they had to "adjust" the parameters to make the real world fit the model.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   15:33:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: AGAviator, abraxas, James Deffenbach, wudidiz, FormerLurker, IRTorqued, all (#142)

There were no explosions reported prior to aircraft impacts. Not on your posted, not on anybody else's other statements anywhere.

And that is a flat out lie. See the testimony of William Rodriquez who was lauded as a hero for the number of lives he saved. And then villified for providing testimony directly contradictory to the "Official Fairy Tale™".

Link to source (although his testimony and witness is widely available).

Excerpt From Interview:

"...On September 11, 2001, Rodriguez, who worked for American Building Maintenance, was 30 minutes late for work arriving at 8:30 a.m. After leaving his backpack in his closet on the 33rd floor he went to his company office in the tower's basement.

At 8:45, he was talking with his supervisor in the first basement level, B1, when he heard and felt a tremendous explosion. Rodriguez told AFP that he felt the first explosion come from a lower basement level. The towers had 6 basement levels.

The building shook, the ceiling fell, and some of the sprinklers began spraying.

"Oh my God, what happened?" Rodriguez, who survived the first bombing of the WTC in 1993, told AFP he recalled saying to his boss. "I think it was the electrical generators."

No sooner had he spoken these words than a second explosion shook the building, this time coming from the upper part of the tower. This second shock, Rodriguez said, shook the building and cracked the walls. "The building moved," he said.

At this point, Felipe David, a Honduran who worked for Aramark and maintained the tower's vending machines, appeared before Rodriguez with his arms outstretched. "It looked like clothing was hanging from his fingers," Rodriguez said, "but it was the skin from his arms."

"Explosion, explosion," David said. "The elevator, the elevator."

Rodriguez then felt a third explosion coming from above. "The ground was shaking," he said. "I thought it was an earthquake." ..."

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   15:46:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: Original_Intent, Kamala, AGAviator (#143)

In addition to providing no validating data for the assumptions on the fireproofing or the angles at which the aircraft hit the building they provide no validation for the number of central column support beams severed, show them as smaller than the perimeter columns (which the were not they were substantially LARGER), and provide no sound justification for the internal temperatures that they allege existed in the core prior to collapse.

>> Cartoon computer models are only as reliable as the data put in.

And they are only as honest as the person running the model. You could make the model sing "The Battle Hymm of The Republic" with the right input parameters. NIST, very unscientifically for a purported investigation, assumes a conclusion and then sets out to validate that conclusion. Their supposed validation has so many flaws, half truths, and outright subterfuge that one cannot escape the conclusion that their modeling DID NOT validate their concluision and so they had to "adjust" the parameters to make the real world fit the model.

Both of you are genuinely well read on Griffin's article, of which I reference here: The Mysterious Collapse of WTC7 by David Ray Griffin, yet there are no FACTS other than spinning this charlatan around in a vacuous washtub with old soap.

Do you guys have the capability to stand on your own feet and discuss the original article as opposed to hiding behind the wild cover-ups of a cheap, charlatan?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   15:48:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: AGAviator (#142)

I'm not interested in your dishonesty about the contents of the video. I know what the WITNESSES stated.......only you think you know more about what they witnessed despite being far, far away.

There has always been this unexplained EXPLOSION phenomenon, since 9-11-2001. However,the government story you cling to with ALL YOUR MIGHT ignores these people, especially that janitor at the end of the video who saved peoples' lives from the EXPLOSIONS in the sub floor areas prior to collapse.

YOU, nowhere near the buildings (kissing government ass in another state I suspect), claim that YOU know more about these explosions that frickin' EYE WITNESSES and people who WORKED in the buildings and people who SAVED LIVES on that day. YOU and the government can IGNORE them, but that only discredits your official bullshit story more.

You run along and tell these people who were there that they are full of shit and only YOU know the truth of the matter. I know, not only are you a liar but you are also a coward who wouldn't say word one to them if you had them front and center, but it's real easy to talk shit about what they witnessed from such a distance.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   15:53:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: AGAviator (#135)

What are you jabbering about?

bush_is_a_moonie  posted on  2010-07-18   16:10:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#148. To: abraxas (#146)

Good post, abraxas.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-18   16:18:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: Eric Stratton (#132)

You haven't seen the hundreds of people, hundreds of fucking people, saying exactly that on youtube?!?! Firefighters, police, "average joe" citizens, ...

I am not questioning the sincerity and authenticity of a few opinions and points of view based upon a disaster wherein thousands panicked for their own lives and ran to possible safety to allude their own deaths.

But a relative few stories taken into perspective with a much larger view shows little or no substance towards what really happened.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   16:33:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: Original_Intent (#129)

Despite the annoyance

ROTFL ... you can't argue your way with facts on any level.... but, I must say ... you can look pretty in your tutu dancing on the stage with a couple of suggestions while dancing and prancing around the main central theme of the thread.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   16:36:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#151. To: Original_Intent (#128)

Here's a link if you're curious: 911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/index.html

Are you willing and able to defend the contents of your esteemed reference material?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   16:39:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#152. To: abraxas, AGAviator (#127)

You ignore the janitor who saved peoples' lives and was an eye witness to explosions in the parking garages and where the generators were kept.

On WTC7? The generators were on three different floors .... mostly on the fifth floor as there were twelve generators.

Now, that same janitor is one opinion and observer to a HUGE event. Can you take his opinion as the WORD proving explosions when in a parking garage, it is almost an echo chamber because of acoustic characteristics from the above floors?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   16:43:53 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#153. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#118)

Then you cited unspecified damage from the collapse of the other 2 towers.

I gave you the link to the NIST report. You read it. I refuse to deal with all those details that later created the collapse of WTC7.

I suppose you have found a way to tie in some serious details about demolitions or sabotage by now. Where are the eyewitnesses? You know, there were thousands of witnesses and alive tragic stricken victims in NYC that day ... at least one would cough up some testimony and/or hard evidence by now .... why are you holding back this key evidence, O_I?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   16:50:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#154. To: abraxas, AGAviator (#117)

The explosions were in the SUB FLOORS.

Everyone of the trade center buildings fell from the top or mid-levels downward ... not from the subfloors (less than ground level) to the top up. All photographic evidence shows that point.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   16:54:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#155. To: James Deffenbach (#148)

Thanks James........here's a funny joke for you. : )

A senior citizen's excuse----

A senior citizen drove his brand new Corvette convertible out of the dealership. Taking off down the road, he floored it to 80 mph, enjoying the wind blowing through what little hair he had left. "Amazing," he thought as he flew down I-95, pushing the pedal even more.

Looking in his rear view mirror, he saw a state trooper behind him, lights flashing and siren blaring. He floored it to 100 mph, then 110, then 120. Suddenly he thought, "What am I doing? I'm too old for this," and pulled over to await the trooper's arrival.

Pulling in behind him, the trooper walked up to the Corvette, looked at his watch, and said, "Sir, my shift ends in 30 minutes. Today is Friday. If you can give me a reason for speeding that I've never heard before, I'll let you go."

The old gentleman paused. Then said, "Years ago, my wife ran off with a State trooper. I thought you were bringing her back..."

"Have a good day, sir," replied the trooper.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   17:00:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#156. To: buckeroo (#153)

Right, you know more than the guy who worked in the building on maintenance for more than a decade. Yes, from your far away DISadvantage point you feel that you can ridicule those who were there while you spit on your monitor. The guy who worked there should have been a key person of interest for NIST.....but they have to INGORE him and the EXPLOSIONS because he doesn't jive with the government conspiracy theory.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   17:03:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#157. To: buckeroo (#154)

Buildings only fall into their own foot print when critical structural integrity on the foundation is blown out.

Photographic evidence and testimony from demo EXPERTS, not Internet bloviators, confirm that.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   17:06:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#158. To: abraxas (#156)

Right, you know more than the guy who worked in the building on maintenance for more than a decade.

Are you aware of the foundation about the subfloors for WTC7? If so, let me know ... I do. WT7 was built on an old Edison Power regeneration facility with subfloors extending 6 floors below ground level.

It was an echo chamber during the calamity. I know the janitor heard lots of things... but he didn't see a blast and he wasn't killed in a blast was he? BTW, most all 4,000 occupants of WTC7 had been evacuated before the first tower collapse.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   17:08:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#159. To: abraxas (#155)

"Years ago, my wife ran off with a State trooper. I thought you were bringing her back..."

And that Corvette wouldn't do but 120? WTH? Did he buy a lemon? ahaha.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-18   17:09:17 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#160. To: abraxas, buckeroo, Original_Intent (#157)

Buildings only fall into their own foot print when critical structural integrity on the foundation is blown out.

That's part of what does it for me. We are talking not one, not two but three buildings. All of which are damaged differently, burning differently yet fall perfectly in their own foot prints. Really? What are the odds of that happening without explosive guidance?


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-18   17:10:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#161. To: buckeroo, All (#149)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-18   17:12:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#162. To: buckeroo (#158)

Buck, that janiter was in the main towers.

I don't know who did the maintenance in WT7......all I know is that building was far less damaged than 3,4,5 and 6 and they didn't fall into their own footprint and Larry Silverstein didn't say "pull it" on any of those buildings.

Actually, you don't know what the janitor says, knew or heard. He's alive and has been educating people on 911 for years. Too bad you didn't bother to get his input, but it's understandable since the government ignored him and that's the ONLY source for you.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   17:13:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#163. To: abraxas (#162)

all I know is that building [WTC7] was far less damaged than 3,4,5 and 6 and they didn't fall into their own footprint

So many posts about WTC7 are here, that it is necessary to be more precise. The original thread material is about the twin towers besides the links for supplemental calculations and theory that I posted towards the top of the thread. Later, because O_I and other want to pull the thread off course, they used WTC7 as material to convolute the argument with confusion.

This happens all the time. So, please help me with specific references on the bldgs or events as 9/11 is confusing all by itself. Even so.....

you are referring to apparent damage with the other buildings. WTC7 was ready to collapse because of its central core beams disjointing and collapsing; it wasn't apparent to the naked eye as fires rampaged throughout the day weakening the trusses beyond their rated load strength.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   17:29:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#164. To: bush_is_a_moonie (#147)

You're the one who introduced offtopic jabber about Oliver North into the discussion.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   17:35:50 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#165. To: abraxas (#162)

I don't know who did the maintenance in WT7......all I know is that building was far less damaged than 3,4,5 and 6 and they didn't fall into their own footprint

Yeah, but you got to take into account the Magickal Jet Fuel™, Santa Claus and his drunken sleigh ride, falling out and bouncing off 1 and 2 and hitting 7 and then the Easter Bunny getting mad and throwing an egg at it. Maybe even more than one. All of which makes as much sense as the Official Conspiracy Theory® that buck is fronting.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-18   17:35:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#166. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle (#146) (Edited)

YOU, nowhere near the buildings (kissing government ass in another state I suspect), claim that YOU know more about these explosions that frickin' EYE WITNESSES and people who WORKED in the buildings and people who SAVED LIVES on that day. YOU and the government can IGNORE them, but that only discredits your official bullshit story more.

What a delusional flockwit you are, to claim that people present at the crashes don't say that airplanes crashed into the buildings and aircraft collision caused their subsequent collapse.

Name EYE WITNESSES who SAVED LIVES who don't claim that AIRCRAFT CRASHES caused the Twin Towers to come down.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   17:43:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#167. To: AGAviator (#166)

Name EYE WITNESSES who SAVED LIVES who don't claim that AIRCRAFT CRASHES caused the Twin Towers to come down.

Look up in the sky! Its a bird! No, its a plane! No, its TWOOFER_MAN!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   17:53:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: AGAviator (#166)

What a delusional flockwit you are, to claim that people present at the crashes don't say that airplanes crashed into the buildings and aircraft collision caused their subsequent collapse.

That's because I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT YOU LYING POS!!!!! Go track down this blatant fucking lie and post it. When you fail to find it,try to be a deceent human being and apologize for your blatent dishonesty. Of course, nobody here actually believes you are the least bit decent, but you could prove that you do have an iota of decency by owning your own lies.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   17:59:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#169. To: buckeroo (#167)

"[T]here was just an explosion [in the south tower]. It seemed like on television [when] they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions."--Firefighter Richard Banaciski

"I saw a flash flash flash [at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building?" --Assistant Fire Commissioner Stephen Gregory

"[I]t was [like a] professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear 'Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop'." --Paramedic Daniel Rivera

-Quoted by David Ray Griffin in Explosive Testimony: Revelations about the Twin Towers in the 9/11 Oral Histories

There is no long form.

randge  posted on  2010-07-18   18:03:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#170. To: AGAviator, buckaroo (#166)

The janitor in the main tower discusses the explosions. We were discussing the EXPLOSIONS........

Nobody was talking about the airplanes crashing into the buildings, other than you in an attempt to divert, distract and blow smoke up Buck's ass and wait naked and giggling like a school girl for him to return the favor. Buck just loves to have your nose deep between his butt cheeks and you love the view. What's next a blow job for Buckie on this thread--you sure are on your knees enough for that to be the next logical progression in your relationship with Buck.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   18:03:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#171. To: abraxas (#170)

The janitor in the main tower discusses the explosions.

Be clear now .. is it the popularly known North or the South Tower of the WTC?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   18:08:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: buckeroo (#171)

Yeah, let's be clear.

William Rodríguez was a janitor at the North Tower of the World Trade Center during the September 11, 2001 attacks and was in the basement of the North Tower when American Airlines Flight 11 crashed into the building. After the attacks he received several awards for heroism for helping in the evacuation of many survivors.

Is that clear enough for you to grasp? Not that you will investigate what this eye witness has to say......but just for the sake of bloviating.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   18:11:46 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#173. To: abraxas (#170)

Nobody was talking about the airplanes crashing into the buildings, other than you in an attempt to divert, distract and blow smoke up Buck's ass and wait naked and giggling like a school girl for him to return the favor.

This thread is about the demolition theory of the WTC. Check my early thread postings and all my later references to include theoretical calculations (provided in links) from non-government personnel AND (I might add) to include hotlinks to the NIST reports for your viewing pleasure.

Now, you are talking about my ass? How strange and fanciful......

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   18:14:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#174. To: buckeroo, AGAbloviator (#173)

Now, you are talking about my ass? How strange and fanciful......

Nah, just noting AGAbloviators skill at kissing and blowing smoke up your ass. It's really not much of a compliment......I think he'd drop to his knees on a dime for just about anybody who pays him the least bit of attention. I find it comical to watch your ego expand over a couple of remarks from a two bit whore.

Strange and fanciful indeed.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   18:21:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#175. To: abraxas, ALL (#172) (Edited)

Now, I can reference your material. Thank you. All I need are a few factual data points to reference so I can learn your from your established viewpoint.

I am not going to clobber you because I may disagree at a later time. I honestly want to learn and I have no axe to grind with you or anyone. I initiated this thread because of the many other threads that have spun off to oblivion for one thing or another. I am hoping we can all learn from each other's opinions without sacrificing our mutual respect on a hottopic.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   18:21:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#176. To: abraxas, AGAviator (#174)

You obviously have your mind made up with pre-existing opinions. Now you are damning AG who is pilot.

I can't argue for AG's opinions anymore than yours. AG doesn't agree with me on many things so it is wrong of you to think or consider or even post the comment you intentionally performed within this venue.

For this thread: we are discussing the demolition theory of the WTC. Can you add, subtract or multipy and divide on that same theory without attempting to become emotional or defensive? It will be helpful. And I thank you for serious research.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   18:32:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#177. To: randge, AGAviator (#169)

David Ray Griffin

Prof. Griffin has a similar axe to grind as WorldNutDaily's famous Jerome Corsi has about publick BS. Just because someone flaunts a personal opin because they have a little educational background hardly makes them "experts."

I provided a link @post#145 about Griffin's published documented analysis [why didn't anyone else on this thread do that?]. Take a peek and get back to me when you can. Your dialogue about critical thinking is well respected by me.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   19:13:06 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#178. To: AGAviator, wudidiz, FormerLurker, IRTorqued, Critter, abraxas, all (#168)

...try to be a deceent human being...

Not gonna happen. That's not in the training manual at CENTCOM.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   19:28:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#179. To: buckeroo, Kamala (#145)

In addition to providing no validating data for the assumptions on the fireproofing or the angles at which the aircraft hit the building they provide no validation for the number of central column support beams severed, show them as smaller than the perimeter columns (which the were not they were substantially LARGER), and provide no sound justification for the internal temperatures that they allege existed in the core prior to collapse.

>> Cartoon computer models are only as reliable as the data put in.

And they are only as honest as the person running the model. You could make the model sing "The Battle Hymm of The Republic" with the right input parameters. NIST, very unscientifically for a purported investigation, assumes a conclusion and then sets out to validate that conclusion. Their supposed validation has so many flaws, half truths, and outright subterfuge that one cannot escape the conclusion that their modeling DID NOT validate their concluision and so they had to "adjust" the parameters to make the real world fit the model.

Both of you are genuinely well read on Griffin's article, of which I reference here: The Mysterious Collapse of WTC7 by David Ray Griffin, yet there are no FACTS other than spinning this charlatan around in a vacuous washtub with old soap.

Do you guys have the capability to stand on your own feet and discuss the original article as opposed to hiding behind the wild cover-ups of a cheap, charlatan?

Instead of engaging in attacking the man i.e., Argumentum Ad Hominem, perhaps you could specify exact what factual issue you take with the analysis.

Otherwise all you post is vacuous drivel which avoids facts and focuses only on unsubstantiated personal attacks. Since you know what you are doing it can only be classified as intentionally dishonest.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   19:37:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#180. To: Original_Intent (#179)

Instead of engaging in attacking the man i.e., Argumentum Ad Hominem, perhaps you could specify exact what factual issue you take with the analysis.

What analysis? There is no argument by Griffin based on any data other than speculation based upon panick during a major tragedy.

Griffin is the essential TWOOFER_MAN for this crap.... (at least) I offer your own background to explain where you get this crap...

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   19:45:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: Original_Intent (#179)

The first casualty of war is the truth.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-18   19:55:50 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#182. To: buckeroo (#176)

Now you are damning AG who is pilot.

Sure he is. And I'm a Angelina Jolie when I'm not posting here at 4um.

The EXPLOSIONS are a direct correlation to the domolition theory, Einstein. Why is this SO difficult for you to grasp?

What would be helpful is you're pulling your nose out of AGAbloviator's butt long enough to keep on topic. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   20:09:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#183. To: James Deffenbach (#181)

Mad Uncle Sugar.

He'll leave his bones to bleach in that desert, I'll warrant.

It's all the fault of the kind that bloviate crap on this forum, and you know who the hell I'm talking about.

I find it abhorrent to draw a breath in the same country as those that propagate old lies. I have nothing to say to them.

This country is going the way of Germany of the 1930s, and the innocent will be punished with the guilty.

There is no long form.

randge  posted on  2010-07-18   20:12:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: abraxas (#182)

The EXPLOSIONS are a direct correlation to the domolition theory, Einstein.

But you seem to deny the issue about the downward collapse pushing aire into the lower levels which is a serious fundamental attribute that seems to create "explosions" because of both the over-all pressure pushing glass out the building and associated acoustic characteristics.

Remember, sometimes what "appears" is not "reality."

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   20:17:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#185. To: James Deffenbach (#165)

lol......I take all that into account when I'm gettin' some sun on the Perfect Pentalawn and also when I'm cruisin' in that "ground effect" in my airplane where I can go 500 miles an hour and not even scratch the lawn one iota even at just a few above the ground.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   20:17:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#186. To: buckeroo (#184)

Remember, sometimes what "appears" is not "reality."

How can I forget? I have a constant reminder every single time I read one of your posts.

There is very little "reality" in what "appears" to be the government accounting of events on 911. Hence, it is very difficult for me to take your favorite source with more than a grain of salt.

When did this "downward collapse" begin ?. You DO realize that people were making their way out of the buildings during this time frame. What I saw wasn't a slow collapse of the towers that went on for two or four hours. When it went, it went fast. Yet, witnesses claim explosions on the sub floors just as or just prior to the planes hitting the buildings. Of course, you like to ignore these eye witness accounts because you and AGAbloviator know FAR more than any person who was actually there.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   20:23:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#187. To: randge (#169)

"[T]here was just an explosion [in the south tower]. It seemed like on television [when] they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions."--Firefighter Richard Banaciski

"I saw a flash flash flash [at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building?" --Assistant Fire Commissioner Stephen Gregory

"[I]t was [like a] professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear 'Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop'." --Paramedic Daniel Rivera

-Quoted by David Ray Griffin in Explosive Testimony: Revelations about the Twin Towers in the 9/11 Oral Histories

We're going to get to the bottom of this eventually, meaning: start the speedy public trials followed by mass hangnings...and, Coincidently you can bet, around that time - the end of the world as we know it will be on us.


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-18   20:25:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#188. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#186)

How can I forget? I have a constant reminder every single time I read one of your posts.

lol. buck, she pwned you on that one. ;)

christine  posted on  2010-07-18   20:27:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#189. To: randge (#183)

This country is going the way of Germany of the 1930s, and the innocent will be punished with the guilty.

And THAT is the sad part.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-18   20:33:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#190. To: abraxas (#186)

There is very little "reality" in what "appears" to be the government accounting of events on 911.

Have you actually read a government report?

When did this "downward collapse" begin ?

Not long after the initial jet aircraft strike. Yes, both buildings collapsed separately with different overall longevity. But that is because they were struck differentially and at different levels of the buildings.

Of course, you like to ignore these eye witness accounts

That isn't a fair assessment at all.

When it went, it went fast.

The central cores weakened by the impact and into the upper 1/3rd of the support beams and structures, physically rendered the capacity of resisting the mammoth force beyond design criteria.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   20:34:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#191. To: abraxas (#185)

lol......I take all that into account when I'm gettin' some sun on the Perfect Pentalawn and also when I'm cruisin' in that "ground effect" in my airplane where I can go 500 miles an hour and not even scratch the lawn one iota even at just a few above the ground.

You lucky debil, you. I don't have one of those lawns or a plane that can go 500 mph yet. But when I get the plane I will see if I can get some seed for that lawn so I won't scuff it up as I ride 20 feet above it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-18   20:37:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#192. To: christine (#188)

she pwned you

BLAH!

Lets remove that silly term.. as it goes nowhere and I never use it, as it is silly. Now, lets DIG into some nitty-gritty ... any FACTUAL data about demolitions?

Speak up, otherwise I OWN those naysayers.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   20:38:20 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#193. To: buckeroo (#190)

I read the ENTIRE 911 OMISSION report Buck.....you know that one that doesn't even mention WT7 falling into its own foot print. It's boring and mostly bovine excrement--have you read it?

Why isn't that a fair assessment? You chime in on what the eye witnesses "really" saw and what they "really" meant and what they "really" think ad nauseum.

Oh, yeah that "Magical Jetfuel" that doesn't burn off hot and fast when it hits oxygen worked like a forge.........in open air. Ever tried to get enough heat to bend metal in an open oxygen area? Doesn't work, which is why people use FORGES and it literally takes HOURS to weaken the steal in an oxygen reduced, red hot furnace.

Without a forge, the weight load of the building wasn't enough to cut that steal in half and allow the building to fall......especially not in ALL those floors that had no magical jet fuel to speak of.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   20:43:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#194. To: abraxas (#193) (Edited)

I read the ENTIRE 911 OMISSION report

Why is your simple opinion coincident to Griffin's?

Here he is (at least I present an opposing opinion to the thread that I presented) ....

[edit: notice his chalkboard is erased and as a FULL PROFESSOR you would think he would deliver some sort of simple calculation or idea or concept or dialogue BUT NO ... ]

And here is PART 2 from Griffin ...

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   20:50:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#195. To: abraxas (#193)

Ever tried to get enough heat to bend metal in an open oxygen area?

Ever try to burn a green, or wet, brush pile with kerosene (which is what jet fuel is)? I have and it's not easy and takes lots. Works some better if you use a backpack blower (same principle as a forge), but I don't think I saw any people with backpack blowers on the videos I saw of the towers falling.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-18   21:01:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#196. To: buckeroo, turtle, critter (#0) (Edited)

One very important fact about structural engineering calculations is that few buildings are actually modeled and tested by structural engineers, before going up. So the engineering calculations and predictions aren't fully verified.

Instead, the engineers try to overcompensate, by putting in more requirements than they actually think they need, to cover for any unknowns.

As with the Titanic sinking, the untested calculations fail to take into account all possible real life events. It's unreasonable to expect un-verified calculations to be completely accurate 100% of the time. Especially from the same people who trash scientists and engineers for being part of the system and subject to error.

Why is it that the same people who repeatedly attack scientists and engineers for being wrong and making up lies or repeating them, accept their unproven calculations about the WTC buildings able to withstand certain crashes, anyway?

But yet the most optimum interpretation of unproven pre- impact calculations, from these same professionals, are supposed to be 100% right in all circumstances?

Immediately after the aircraft hit there was considerable difference of opinion among engineers about what the next results would be. Some engineers said they expected a complete and total collapse, others thought the buildings would hold partially at worst.

A bin Laden video recovered a few months after 911 shows OBL expressing surprise and happiness that the whole buildings went down. OBL says his own calculations showed the collapses would stop at the floors the planes impacted.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   21:09:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#197. To: abraxas, buckeroo, critter, turtle (#170) (Edited)

just loves to have your nose deep between his butt cheeks and you love the view

You've devoted infinitely more words and posts to gaysex remarks about buck than I ever have, because I've made zero, little STD-infected worm.

Your little sick and frequent returnings - minimum 5+ times a day - to the subject shows the problem begins and ends within your panting, slobbering, degenerate, pathetic little excuse for a brain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   21:15:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#198. To: AGAviator (#196)

Instead, the engineers try to overcompensate, by putting in more requirements than they actually think they need, to cover for any unknowns.

We call that over calculation, "headroom." Some want 10%, others want 20% .. in the medical field it is 100%.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   21:16:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#199. To: AGAviator (#36)

Putting water onto iron heated above 300-400 degrees creates an exothermic reaction that was widely used in the 1800's.

There was no iron in the WTC towers. Unless you are referring to the iron that was a byproduct of a thermite type reaction.


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-18   21:48:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#200. To: Critter (#199)

There was no iron in the WTC towers. Unless you are referring to the iron that was a byproduct of a thermite type reaction.

There were millions of pounds of structural steel, which chemically is iron.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   21:57:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#201. To: buckeroo (#77)

How did they turn you into a gov't shill buckie? Did they catch you cheating on your taxes? What?


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-18   21:57:23 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#202. To: Critter (#201)

Just stop it, Jim, I am as poor as you and have nothing more than making a few posts that are substance oriented; I am tired of BS.

Your remarck is dead wrong.

Now look at the thread FACTS of what I performed. I am objective.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   22:04:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#203. To: AGAviator (#200)

There were millions of pounds of structural steel

Yeah, structural steel, not iron. There is a difference.


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-18   22:05:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#204. To: buckeroo (#202)

I just thought you were smarter. Anyone with a working brain who can think for themselves can see that there was more to those 3 collapses than just a few damaged columns and a fire.

If cutting a few columns and pouring some kerosene in a building can take them down, why do professional demolition companies use explosives and careful timing to bring buildings down?


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-18   22:08:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#205. To: Critter (#204)

Anyone with a working brain who can think for themselves can see that there was more to those 3 collapses than just a few damaged columns and a fire.

PROVE IT, since you assume YOU have a working brain.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   22:13:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#206. To: buckeroo (#205)

since you assume YOU have a working brain.

I know mine is working. I'm just wondering what stopped yours?


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-18   22:19:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#207. To: Critter (#206)

In my case, I am still very capable of discerning the truth of physics and mathematics BEYOND political gullible assholes as GRIFFIN. At the top of thread, I have not just introduced the CONCEPT about this demolition theory but theoretical physics and mathematics in related links. (You have never seen this before) .... If you want to think of me as not having a brain, that is fine. But I am seriously tired of others not addressing the core issues such as Griffin's remarcks... and piles of people swallowing that asshole's perspective because they have no personal orientation or capability.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   22:30:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#208. To: buckeroo (#207)

I have been a hands on guy my whole life. I know how things work. I may not be formally educated in physics, but I understand what my eyes tell me.

Promoters of the official conspiracy theory (fair tale) argue out one side of their mouths that it would take a team of hundreds working for weeks with tons of explosives to bring down those three buildings and out the other side of their mouths that a few cut columns and an office fire brought them down.

Tell me why demolition companies don't do it the easy way, cut a few columns, douse the building in kerosene, come back in an hour and start hauling away debris? They won't even need a countdown. It doesn't get any easier than that, does it?


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-18   22:47:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#209. To: Critter (#208)

On this thread ... help in explaining where the PROOF of CD or eyewitnesses are to any of the issues on 9/11. Hard evidence refuting mathematics and physics is required.

[hint: just one witness on the inside planting, controlling or otherwise praying to Jesus on their own deathbed]

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   22:58:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#210. To: buckeroo (#209)

Your post proves nothing except your gullibility.

Answer my question, why don't controlled demolition companies now just cut a few columns, douse the buildings in kerosene, go get lunch and come back to start loading debris?


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-18   23:01:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#211. To: Critter (#210)

Your post proves nothing except your gullibility.

Why? Because I don't believe in BS conspiracy theories?

Answer my question, why don't controlled demolition companies now just cut a few columns, douse the buildings in kerosene, go get lunch and come back to start loading debris?

Yes sir! Beats the shit out of me. Which ones brought down the WTC buildings on 9/11/2001.... After you make the factual claim, we might have something to go after other than BS, poppycock and innuendo.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   23:06:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#212. To: James Deffenbach (#195)

but I don't think I saw any people with backpack blowers on the videos I saw of the towers falling.

Well those master minds with box cutters were crafty enough to push that passport out the window. I bet they hopped out of the plane after impact with those back blowers ready to go...............

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   23:27:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#213. To: buckeroo (#194)

Well, Buck, just goes to show that you know more about Mr. Griffin than I do. I like the work of physics professor Jones. Have you read his peer reviewed papers on this topic, nano thernmite, in particular?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   23:31:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#214. To: AGAviator (#197)

Your little sick and frequent returnings - minimum 5+ times a day

I have good gaydar and you are extremely obvious.......lol

Egads, you're tracking my posting history? GET A F'ING LIFE PAL!!

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   23:35:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#215. To: abraxas (#214)

Your little sick and frequent returnings - minimum 5+ times a day

...

Egads, you're tracking my posting history?

I don't need to track them, imbecile.

You put at least 5 of your projections on your daily posts to me, STD viruseater.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   23:56:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#216. To: AGAviator (#215)

You put at least 5 of your projections on your daily posts to me

lol.....you keep track. Like I said.......GET A F'ING LIFE PAL.

I would never waste a nano second taking a tally of your posts to me. You just aren't that significant, but, oh my, you have me down to the number five. Face it, that right there is the PATH to PATHETIC.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   0:00:23 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#217. To: abraxas, AGBloviator, AGAviator (#216)

If you keep this up poor widdle AGBloviator is gonna cry.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-19   0:06:30 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#218. To: buckeroo (#0)

His calculations suggest the residual capacity of the north and south towers was limited, and that once the collapse was set in motion, it would take only nine seconds for the building to go down.

Only a stooge or moron would say that. And only a stooge or moron would post this as if it made their side look right. It makes you look like complete and total idiots. Buck, I don't think you are a stooge, so that only leaves the moron option left. Sorry.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-19   0:19:34 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#219. To: abraxas (#216)

No I don't keep track, fuckwit.

I do recognize when a scumsucker keeps repeating the same thing over and over.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   0:21:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#220. To: AGAviator, abraxas, christine (#219)

You should watch your language.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-19   0:26:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#221. To: wudidiz (#220)

You should watch your language.

I like the bozo filter, it lets me ban people that are not here for anything other than disinfo. I don't need to refute their disinfo, just show a video of the Towers coming down and then a picture of a real progressive collapse. The differences are astonishing. And of course the ace in the whole that makes these agents squirm, WTC7. Show it collapsing a lot, and they run away and hide fast. No one will dare touch that one.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-19   0:39:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#222. To: wudidiz (#220) (Edited)

You should watch your language

People who address me in civil terms will have no problems with my responses.

However none of you are going to get free passes when you make gratuitous insults, scatological remarks, and repeatedly engage in obscene talk for the benefit of fellow circle jerks, or cheer it on, because of inability to reply to the topic.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   0:55:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#223. To: RickyJ (#221)

No one will dare touch that one.

You would think.

Watch.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-19   0:57:24 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#224. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, Turtle, RickyJ (#221)

Building 7 collapse This 9.6-second video shows the Building 7 collapse from a vantage point only about 1000 feet to the north.

Building 7 collapse from northeast This video shows the Building 7 collapse from a vantage point a mile or so to the northeast on Greenwich Street. The view shows the building from top to near street level.

CBS video of Building 7 collapse This video provides a distant view of Building 7's collapse from the north.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-19   0:57:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#225. To: AGAviator (#219)

No I don't keep track, fuckwit.

lol......tad bit late to lie about your public disclosure of your tracking my posts. I mean, it was merely a few posts up on the thread when you opted to tell all of your tracking activities and the current count of my posts.

Only a moron would lie about it NOW. But, hey, honesty isn't your thing. We all recognize your continual repetition of lies.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   1:45:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#226. To: wudidiz (#224)

It wasn't gone though, just blew up. That's why the debris was treated as if it were gold. They were just going to sell it for scrap metal to China and others, but they wouldn't let the public look at it. No, people were threatened with arrest if they took pictures at ground zero. I don't like being lied to, and Jews, our government, and the main stream media do nothing but lie to us constantly.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-19   1:54:04 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#227. To: wudidiz, buckeroo, turtle, critter (#223)

Mark Loizeaux - President of Cont. Demolition Inc

The largest structure which we've taken down...the Hudson building...It took months to prepare the structures.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   2:13:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#228. To: AGAviator (#227)

Do you know who Barry Jennings is, AGitprop ?


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-19   2:22:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#229. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle (#225)

public disclosure of your tracking my posts.

No hydrocephalic, when you post the same old $hit to me throughout the day, and I state you repeat the same old $hit, that isn't "tracking" because tracking means I would need to go out and look for it.

But as usual, you run out of energy to discuss the relevant topic which in this instance is 911 CT's, so you need to move to the personal stuff because you have never had any acceptable specific information about the 911 CT's.

So you're going to keep up with your loser tactics, and I'm going to keep pointing that out with additional evidence to put the final nails in your coffin as I come across it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   2:23:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#230. To: AGitprop (#229)

Who is Barry Jennings ?


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-19   2:25:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#231. To: Rotara, AGAviator (#230)

Who is Barry Jennings ?


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-19   2:51:06 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#232. To: RickyJ (#227) (Edited)

On 2010-07-19 02:13:48, AGAviator wrote:

To: wudidiz, buckeroo, turtle, critter

Mark Loizeaux - President of Cont. Demolition Inc

The largest structure which we've taken down...the Hudson building...It took months to prepare the structures.

See what I mean?


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-19   3:27:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#233. To: AGAviator (#227)

The largest structure which we've taken down...the Hudson building...It took months to prepare the structures.

I guess now they can just cut a few columns, douse the building in kerosene, go get lunch, come back and start loading up the debris, all in one short day.


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-19   7:05:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#234. To: Critter (#208)

Tell me why demolition companies don't do it the easy way, cut a few columns, douse the building in kerosene, come back in an hour and start hauling away debris? They won't even need a countdown. It doesn't get any easier than that, does it?

Yeah, that's a good question. Surely they would have figured that out a long time ago (if it could be done that way that is). I think just about everyone here knows better than that $#it buck and his sidekick(s) are posting. I think buck even knows better.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   7:48:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#235. To: abraxas (#212)

Well those master minds with box cutters were crafty enough to push that passport out the window. I bet they hopped out of the plane after impact with those back blowers ready to go...............

Yeah, and some more of their homeboys kept the invisibility ray on them so no one could see them.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   7:51:30 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#236. To: AGAviator (#219)

I do recognize when a scumsucker keeps repeating the same thing over and over.

So you recognize what you're doing then, right fuckwit?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   7:55:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#237. To: buckeroo (#0)

His calculations suggest the residual capacity of the north and south towers was limited, and that once the collapse was set in motion, it would take only nine seconds for the building to go down.

This is just a little longer than a free-falling coin, dropped from the top of either tower, would take to reach the ground.

Actually a free fall from the 110th floor would have taken 9.22 seconds.

Wow, the towers fell FASTER than free falling objects, like being sucked into a huge vacuum cleaner.

Amazing.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   7:59:34 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#238. To: FormerLurker (#236)

Stay on point, if you can remember what the point is, fuckwit.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   10:39:49 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#239. To: AGAviator (#238)

Stay on point, if you can remember what the point is, fuckwit.

Just thought I'd reciprocate the pleasantries you've so generously sprinkled on this forum.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   10:51:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#240. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#238)

Stay on point, if you can remember what the point is, fuckwit.

lol.......the point is to keep track of Abraxas' posts around here, right? What's the tally at today?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   10:59:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#241. To: AGAviator (#229)

But as usual, you run out of energy

So you're going to keep up

Egads, now you are tracking my energy usage?

And YOU are making plans for how I am going to keep up.........like I said, get a f'ing life pal.

I can take care of my own energy tracking and my own plans for "keeping up" with the AGAblowviators.......lol.

Final nails in my coffin? HAHAHAHA Dream big AGAblowviator. I won't fret to much about an Internet BLOW HARD who wouldn't know how to hammer a nail if his life depended on it. But I will sing a little song for you--If AG had a hammer, he'd hammer in the mornin'.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   11:29:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#242. To: abraxas (#241)

lol

AGitprop doesn't want to talk about Barry Jennings either.

None of them do...


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-19   11:32:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#243. To: abraxas (#241)

Poor AGAviator, his only friend around here is buck, and can't get the backup he's used to getting from his home nest...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   11:35:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#244. To: Rotara (#242)

AGitprop doesn't want to talk about Barry Jennings either.

Well, Rotara, not to toot my own horn but I'm just so darn fascinating, tracking my posts here at 4um is much more signigicant than folks like Barry Jennings who throw a wrench in the official fairy tale that AGAblowviator gets paid for defending. lol

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   11:36:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#245. To: FormerLurker (#243)

can't get the backup he's used to getting from his home nest...

Well, he could always fly home. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   11:47:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#246. To: FormerLurker (#237)

Actually a free fall from the 110th floor would have taken 9.22 seconds.

Show me your calculation and/or source material.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   12:13:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#247. To: buckeroo (#246)

Show me your calculation and/or source material.

Oh man, are you REALLY that stupid? Besides it being stated in virtually every report that exists in terms of free fall comparisons, here's the basic physics, which you apparently never learned in school.

You can look up the formula, it's t = SQRT(2d/g)

t = time, d = distance, g = acceleration due to gravity (32.2 feet per second/second)

The roof heights of the WTC towers were 1368 ft for WTC1, 1362 feet for WTC2.

Acceleration due to gravity is (32.17 feet per second)/second

For WTC1;

t = SQRT(2*1368/32.17) = 9.222 seconds

For WTC2;

t = SQRT(2*1362/32.17) = 9.202 seconds

So there you go buck, try looking things up yourself next time before you make a fool of yourself.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   12:48:24 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#248. To: buckeroo (#246)

Oh and BTW buck, those equations don't take into consideration air resistance, so free fall from that height would have taken a bit longer, depending on the aerodynamics of the object.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   13:00:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#249. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#247)

Why do you think that your height measurement for the "top" of each of the WTC towers is correct?

The towers were hit on the 96th and 81st floors, this means that "free fall" time values were 8.61 and 7.91 seconds respectively because this is the location of initial forces (de plane! de plane!) that buckled the upper floors.

So, you are incorrect by throwing your silly brick off the 110th floor... for a publick demonstration of your astounding assumptions to thwart otherwise serious study and investigation into and about a tragic issue.

This notion of "free fall" has always been used by the TWOOFERS and it is an incorrect assumption for the top of either of the building for the calculation; it is utter nonsense.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   13:15:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#250. To: FormerLurker (#248)

?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   15:14:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#251. To: CurrentJerker, buckeroo, turtle (#239) (Edited)

Just thought I'd reciprocate the pleasantries you've so generously sprinkled on this forum.

As much as a sewageswilling anaerobe like yourself wishes to shift discussions from issues, and their evidence, to throwing stinkbombs - which you're just as deficient in as any other pursuit - it ain't gonna happen.

Just as a partial list, you've been provided explicit proofs of the following phenomena and many others. Which you try to evade by going to your speaking from the toilet about gaysex instead of the facts and their evidence.

(1) Two aircraft crashes released gigajoules of kinetic energy into the Twin Tower structures, and within 2 hours both structures collapsed from structural damage,
(2) A fireman is recorded on video saying a third WTC Building, WTC7, will be going down because the building is losing its structural stability from crash damage and uncontrolled fires,
(3) Over 30 calls from hijacked aircraft were logged including several by flight attendants giving seat numbers and descriptions of hijackers,
(4) The false statement that Flight 77's cabin door was not opened has been demonstrated to be a lie, as there is no evidence about any cabin door operation of that aircraft either during or before the September 11 flight,
(5) The lauded "peer review publication" of Tw00ferk00ks Steven Jones and Niels Harrit have been shown to be pay-to- publish articles for which $800 was given to a Dhubai publishing mill, with zero other peer reviewed articles
(6) The phrase "pull" as used by the demolition industry means "pull down with cables," and as used by firefighters means "pull back from site,"
(7) Flight 77 impacted a recently-renovated portion of the Pentagon which was not fully occupied and still had construction equipment in place, and
(8) It's a physical impossibliity for a structure to both be flexible enough to absorb gigajoules of energy, move away from vertical centerline, return to vertical centerline on its own, then be rigid enough to provide a fixed platform for a rotating and falling top section to collapse outside the building footprint and
(9) The actual free fall times of the WTC towers have been conclusively shown as 15+ seconds for 1 tower and 22+ seconds for the other, an order of magnitude above the claimed "free fall time" of 9.22 seconds which is supposed to be evidence of a controlled demolition

That's just a partial list of the issues about which you and your fellow circlejerks have been batted on from one end of the forum to another. There are plenty of others. So your attempts to evade and make things personal is noted, as well as noted as being unsuccessful.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   15:38:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#252. To: buckeroo (#249)

This notion of "free fall" has always been used by the TWOOFERS and it is an incorrect assumption for the top of either of the building for the calculation; it is utter nonsense.

Hahahahhaa.

More back pedaling after they themselves use 9.22 seconds as evidenced on Rosie's video clip.

Where she's obviously parroting something she doesn't understand the least from a CT website.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   15:43:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#253. To: AGAviator (#252)

I have noticed that the nasty, vindictive and silly posts have stopped. Yet, not one post to show or otherwise prove that CD was used other than some witnesses suggesting they heard "blasts" .. yet, not one post to refute the thread title.

AG, we won another thread dispelling the TWOOFERS whom simply recycle regurgitated, fabricated and pseudo-scientific considerations.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   16:03:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#254. To: buckeroo (#250)

?

In other words, the equations show how long it would take for an object to all through an ideal medium, ie. a vacuum with no air.

With air resistance, the time increases. If you drop a spherical rock the delay is minimal, whereas if you drop a section of wood or sheet metal the time increases due to the air resistance encountered during the fall.

Bottom line is, the SHORTEST possible time for free fall from the top of the WTC was 9.202 seconds for WTC2, 9.222 seconds for WTC1.

Actual times would be somewhat greater due to air resistance, depending on the shape of the object falling.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   16:12:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#255. To: buckeroo (#249)

Why do you think that your height measurement for the "top" of each of the WTC towers is correct?

The towers were hit on the 96th and 81st floors, this means that "free fall" time values were 8.61 and 7.91 seconds respectively because this is the location of initial forces (de plane! de plane!) that buckled the upper floors.

Oh, so you're saying the TOPS OF THE BUILDING JUST VANISHED INTO NOTHING? Man you people are really something. (Well you would be PARTIALLY correct in that they DID turn into dust).

The TOPS of the building ALSO HAD TO FALL, and it is THAT we are talking about, for the top of the building to come to rest, not skipping the part of the collapse that had to occur PRIOR to the BOTTOM structure collapsing.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   16:15:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#256. To: AGAviator (#252)

More back pedaling after they themselves use 9.22 seconds as evidenced on Rosie's video clip.

Rosie is obviously brighter than you.

You don't judge collapse time for only PART of the building collapsing, you INCLUDE the ENTIRE building from the very top.

Do they give you stupid pills on your job?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   16:17:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#257. To: FormerLurker (#254)

Bottom line is, the SHORTEST possible time for free fall from the top of the WTC was 9.202 seconds for WTC2, 9.222 seconds for WTC1.

That is a theoretical calculation not taking into account the facts; the facts categorically prove that you are WRONG by assuming the 110th floor. The moment of impact was on not the top floors but sandwiched underneath..... and the actual time took 65.5% and 47.3% longer than those of a free fall of the upper part of each tower.

What does this mean? That the internal resistive effects of the lower floors resisted the "crush down" phase of the collapse.

Where are the CDs?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   16:20:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#258. To: FormerLurker (#255)

(Well you would be PARTIALLY correct in that they DID turn into dust).

Can you explain that particular pulverizing phenomena?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   16:21:26 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#259. To: AGovShill (#251)

It's a physical impossibliity for a structure to both be flexible enough to absorb gigajoules of energy, move away from vertical centerline, return to vertical centerline on its own, then be rigid enough to provide a fixed platform for a rotating and falling top section to collapse outside the building footprint and

Says who, you? How much energy do you think the building absorbed during a hurricane, just a couple of Joules?

Besides that moron, most of the energy was spent ripping the aircraft to shreds, not in "causing the tower to sway".


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   16:21:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#260. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#256)

You don't judge collapse time for only PART of the building collapsing, you INCLUDE the ENTIRE building from the very top.

You're the people bantering around the "9.22 seconds," "physical impossibility" phrases.

You've had over 8 years and still can't come up with coherent, supportable, verifiable versions of events.

Take another few years to get your stories straight. It's not like anybody will be holding their breaths.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   16:23:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#261. To: buckeroo (#258)

Can you explain that particular pulverizing phenomena?

Maybe your fellow shyster can explain it to you.

Most rational people understand that EXPLOSIVES are more than likely to blame, or some other form of weapon.

The pulverization is obvious if you watch the collapse videos, where there would NOT have been enough solid mass to "pancake" the floors, since there WERE no floors left of the upper structure.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   16:24:34 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#262. To: FormerLurker (#256)

You don't judge collapse time for only PART of the building collapsing, you INCLUDE the ENTIRE building from the very top.

The buckling occurred at the moment of tremendous horizontal force below the top of the building.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   16:25:53 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#263. To: AGAviator, buckeroo (#260)

You're the people bantering around the "9.22 seconds," "physical impossibility" phrases.

Yep, the building SHOULD NOT HAVE collapsed as if it were falling through a vacuum, yet buck's expert "calculated" precisely that.

Do you and he subscribe to "Junk Science Monthly"? Or do you just make this shit up as you go?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   16:26:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#264. To: buckeroo (#262)

The buckling occurred at the moment of tremendous horizontal force below the top of the building.

Not really, but it's not even relavant in terms of how long it would take for the top of the building to hit the ground.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   16:27:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#265. To: buckeroo (#257) (Edited)

That is a theoretical calculation not taking into account the facts; the facts categorically prove that you are WRONG by assuming the 110th floor.

So you're saying a UFO stole the top of both towers?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   16:28:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#266. To: buckeroo (#257)

Wow, you really believe it'd take the same or LESS time for the top to hit the ground than the lower floors should have, eh?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   16:29:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#267. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#259)

Besides that moron, most of the energy was spent ripping the aircraft to shreds, not in "causing the tower to sway".

Aircraft or any other structures are not designed to rip themselves to shreds.

They need external agents to disintegrate themselves, and either those external agents supply energy on their own as in crushing machines - false, or they absorb kinetic energy from objects crashing into them.

The structures obviously had to absorb the kinetic energy first in order for them to have any effect on the aircraft.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   16:31:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#268. To: FormerLurker (#261)

Most rational people understand that EXPLOSIVES are more than likely to blame, or some other form of weapon.

But no known acoustic energy of tremendous quantities occurred until the final floors collapsed. Here is a diagram that shows it:

If we had EXPLOSIONS ... those would have been recorded throughout and/or prior actual the collapse.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   16:31:43 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#269. To: AGAviator (#267)

Aircraft or any other structures are not designed to rip themselves to shreds.

Well no, but if they are going around 500 mph and hit solid steel columns, guess what happens. They ARE mostly just a hollow tube of sheets of aluminum, in case you didn't know.

Are you that stupid that you think planes come out of plane crashes totally undamaged? Ok, if you believe that, then where's the undamaged airplane that hit the Pentagon, eh?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   16:35:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#270. To: FormerLurker (#265)

So you're saying a UFO stole the top of both towers?

C'mon.... the lower floors (96 and 81 because the moment of horizontal impact) fell FIRST as the weight of the upper floors buckled under the upper floors.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   16:35:20 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#271. To: buckeroo (#268)

But no known acoustic energy of tremendous quantities occurred until the final floors collapsed. Here is a diagram that shows it:

So even though there were TRILLIONS of JOULES of energy being absorbed into the ground during the collapse, there was no seismic record of that till the last few floors hit, ok then, so it would have been impossible to detect explosives.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   16:37:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#272. To: buckeroo (#270)

C'mon.... the lower floors (96 and 81 because the moment of horizontal impact) fell FIRST as the weight of the upper floors buckled under the upper floors.

So what? The top STILL HAD TO FALL, and you don't judge how long the top of the building took to fall from the fall of the lower floors, you judge it from how long IT took to fall.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   16:38:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#273. To: FormerLurker (#272)

The top STILL HAD TO FALL

Of course... but that is not where you measure free fall for this tragedy.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   16:40:41 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#274. To: FormerLurker (#271)

Show some of the seismic records that day..... you research it. It collaborates my point that demolitions were not used.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   16:42:06 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#275. To: buckeroo (#273)

Of course... but that is not where you measure free fall for this tragedy.

Did you ever graduate grade school?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   16:43:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#276. To: buckeroo (#274)

Show some of the seismic records that day.....

You're the one that posted there was no seismic record of the collapse, except for the last few floors. Live with it, you posted it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   16:44:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#277. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#269)

Well no, but if they are going around 500 mph and hit solid steel columns, guess what happens

As I've already stated, the faster an object is moving, the more ability it has to penetrate, damage, and destroy other objects that are harder than it is.

Examples: Melted lead bullets penetrating solid metal targets, hurricane driven straws and pieces of debris penetrating trees, bird strikes going through aircraft windshields, tens of thousands more where a softer object hitting a harder object nevertheless inflicts some major destruction.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   16:51:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#278. To: FormerLurker (#271)

In fact here is a pdf file about the seismic records from columbia university: www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCS...0911_WTC/WTC_LDEO_KIM.pdf .... look it over ..... where are the explosions?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   16:51:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#279. To: AGAviator (#277)

As I've already stated, the faster an object is moving, the more ability it has to penetrate, damage, and destroy other objects that are harder than it is.

Especially under acceleration ... as a falling building......

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   16:53:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#280. To: FormerLurker (#265)

         

So you're saying a UFO stole the top of both towers?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   16:54:04 ET  (5 images) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#281. To: AGAviator (#277)

Examples: Melted lead bullets penetrating solid metal targets

Well yes, the hollow metal airplane DID hit a few vertical columns on the way in, RIPPING it into shreds AND damaging those external columns.

HOWEVER, a hollow aluminum body is not the same as a SOLID LEAD BULLET. Sure, an incendiary .50 BMG can penetrate a manhole cover. But, a tin can travelling at the same speed as the solid lead bullet WILL NOT penetrate that manhole cover, neither will a SOLID LEAD .40 caliber pistol bullet, nor even a .308 RIFLE BULLET.

The INTERNAL steel columns which made up the internal steel core were made of MUCH heavier steel than a manhole cover, and would have sliced the airframe like a hot knife goes through butter.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   17:19:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#282. To: buckeroo (#279)

Especially under acceleration ... as a falling building......

Wow, it's a good thing nobody ever dropped a PC on those upper floors as that acceleration would have brought the entire building down, eh?

What it comes down to is that ONE symetrical collapse close to free fall speed would have been odd enough, but not just one, not just two, but THREE, all in the same day, where one wasn't even hit by an airplane.

Good thing that Easter Bunny ran out of his magickal eggs that day, right buck?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   17:23:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#283. To: FormerLurker (#282)

Sterno poisoning must be a terrible affliction. And when the shills mix that up with their government dispensed KOOK AID I shudder to think about the havoc it plays on their alleged minds.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   17:27:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#284. To: James Deffenbach (#283)

Sterno poisoning must be a terrible affliction. And when the shills mix that up with their government dispensed KOOK AID I shudder to think about the havoc it plays on their alleged minds.

They tend to invent a new form of science. I've heard it's called KOOKology.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   17:29:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#285. To: FormerLurker, James Deffenbach (#282)

Wow, it's a good thing nobody ever dropped a PC on those upper floors as that acceleration would have brought the entire building down, eh?

Actually, many of the computers and other peripheral equipment were burn't by the initial explosions caused by jet fuel. Because the internal water sprinkler systems failed, the fires ravaged the support structures weakening the core beyond their rated stress design.

This remarck about the Easter bunny and Santa Claus was originally described by James Deffenbach, BTW .... as he can't explain anything but slap some plagiarized animated gifs from time to time on a thread.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   17:30:22 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#286. To: FormerLurker (#284)

And who is the head(case) professor? BeAChooser?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   17:30:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#287. To: buckeroo (#285)

Because the internal water sprinkler systems failed, the fires ravaged the support structures weakening the core beyond their rated stress design.

No way. The fires were simple office fires after the first few minutes, and the WTC had a MUCH worse fire back in the 70's yet it didn't fall down.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   17:33:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#288. To: James Deffenbach (#286)

And who is the head(case) professor? BeAChooser?

Possibly. I think both AGovShill and buck are trying to get a fellowship to the College of KooKology.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   17:34:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#289. To: FormerLurker (#287)

The fires were simple office fires after the first few minutes

My GOD man ... you didn't see the initial explosions based on the impact of the jet aircraft? Every floor (above) was cut off from support systems as the fire ravaged.

You didn't see the hundreds of people leaping to their deaths because of the fires caused by the aircraft?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   17:37:52 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#290. To: buckeroo, AGAvaiator (#279)

As I've already stated, the faster an object is moving, the more ability it has to penetrate, damage, and destroy other objects that are harder than it is. Especially under acceleration ... as a falling building......

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You two are too funny. It's as if Newton's simple experiments evaded your "profound" logic and the two of you continue to believe that bigger objects fall faster than smaller objects............and that all those floors beneath where the "collapse" began didn't offer any RESISTANCE.

Oh no, you Einstein's think that created acceleration..........HAHAHAHAHAHAHA The ONLY way you would actually have acceleration is if the RESISTANCE of the steal core were somehow severed, weakened, blown apart, cut, sliced on each and every floor. Without the complete removal of all resistance, the fall of the building is SLOWER than an object with NO resistance. This is why many physics professors call BS on the goobermint story.

OMG.......too funny!!

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   17:38:30 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#291. To: FormerLurker (#288)

Possibly. I think both AGovShill and buck are trying to get a fellowship to the College of KooKology.

They shouldn't have any problem getting a free ride to that one. They have demonstrated their usefulness to the government, especially on 9/11.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   17:42:50 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#292. To: buckeroo, ALL (#285)

The 1975
World Trade Center Fire

The February 13, 1975 North Tower Fire has been carefully hidden from you. Here are a few reports concerning it.

This 110-story steel-framed office building suffered a fire on the 11th floor on February 13, 1975. The loss was estimated at over $2,000,000. The building is one of a pair of towers, 412 m in height. The fire started at approximately 11:45 P.M. in a furnished office on the 11th floor and spread through the corridors toward the main open office area.

A porter saw flames under the door and sounded the alarm. It was later that the smoke detector in the air-conditioning plenum on the 11th floor was activated. The delay was probably because the air-conditioning system was turned off at night. The building engineers placed the ventilation system in the purge mode, to blow fresh air into the core area and to draw air from all the offices on the 11th floor so as to prevent further smoke spread.

The fire department on arrival found a very intense fire. It was not immediately known that the fire was spreading vertically from floor to floor through openings in the floor slab. These 300-mm x 450-mm (12-in. x 18-in.) openings in the slab provided access for telephone cables. Subsidiary fires on the 9th to the 19th floors were discovered and readily extinguished. The only occupants of the building at the time of fire were cleaning and service personnel. They were evacuated without any fatalities. However, there were 125 firemen involved in fighting this fire and 28 sustained injuries from the intense heat and smoke. The cause of the fire is unknown.

Also, from the New York Times (Saturday 15th February 1975):

Fire Commissioner John T. O'Hagan said yesterday that he would make a vigorous effort to have a sprinkler system installed in the World Trade Center towers as a consequence of the fire that burned for three hours in one of them early yesterday morning.

The towers, each 110 stories tall and the highest structures in the city, are owned and operated by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which is not subject to local safety codes.
As Commissioner O'Hagan stood in the sooty puddles of the North Tower's 11th floor hallway, he told reporters that the fire would not have spread as far as it did if sprinklers had been installed there.

The fire spread throughout about half of the offices of the floor and ignited the insulation of telephone cables in a cable shaft that runs vertically between floors. Commissioner O'Hagan said that the absence of fire-stopper material in gaps around the telephone cables had allowed the blaze to spread to other floors within the cable shaft. Inside the shaft, it spread down to the 9th floor and up to the 16th floor, but the blaze did not escape from the shaft out into room or hallways on the other floors.........

Only the 11th floor office area was burned, but extensive water damage occurred on the 9th and 10th floors, and smoke damage extended as far as the 15th floor, the spokesman said.
Although there were no direct casualties, 28 of the 150 firemen called to the scene suffered minor injuries.

More from the New York Times (Saturday 14th February 1975):

"It was like fighting a blow torch" according to Captain Harold Kull of Engine Co. 6,........
Flames could be seen pouring out of 11th floor windows on the east side of the building.

So, this was a very serious fire which spread over some 65 per cent of the eleventh floor (the core plus half the office area) in the very same building that supposedly "collapsed" on 9/11 due to a similar, or lesser, fire. This fire also spread to a number of other floors. And although it lasted over 3 hours, it caused no serious structural damage and trusses survived the fires without replacement and supported the building for many, many more years after the fires were put out.

It should be emphasized that the North Tower suffered no serious structural damage from this fire. In particular, no trusses needed to be replaced.

That the 1975 fire was more intense than the 9/11 fires is evident from the fact that it caused the 11th floor east side windows to break and flames could be seen pouring from these broken windows. This indicates a temperature greater than 700°C. In the 9/11 fires the windows were not broken by the heat (only by the aircraft impact) indicating a temperature below 700°C.

So now you know that the WTC towers were well designed and quite capable of surviving a serious fire. I repeat that this was a very hot fire that burnt through the open-plan office area of the eleventh floor and spread up and down the central core area for many floors. This was a serious fire.

Much was learned from the 1975 WTC fire. In particular, the fact that the fire had not been contained to a single floor but spread to many floors, caused much concern. The points of entry of the fire to other floors were identified and the floors of each building were modified to make sure that this would never happen again. For some strange reason, the modifications failed to perform on September 11, 2001 and again the fires spread from floor to floor.


See also:

1975 New York Times Newspaper Clippings
The 9/11 WTC Fires: Where's the Inferno?



"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   17:43:10 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#293. To: abraxas, James Deffenbach (#290)

So the building didn't fall, 'eh? What holds it up, James Deffenbach's Easter bunny or his Santa Claus?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   17:44:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#294. To: FormerLurker (#292) (Edited)

BFD ... what does that post have to do with the demolition theory of this thread or of the WTC on September 11, 2001 CAUSED by terrorist aircraft crashing into the buildings.

[minor edits]

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   17:46:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#295. To: FormerLurker (#292)

And although it lasted over 3 hours, it caused no serious structural damage and trusses survived the fires without replacement and supported the building for many, many more years after the fires were put out.

Yeah, until that dastardly drunk, Santa Claus, fell out of his sleigh and hit it. And then the Magickal Jet Fuel™ AND the Easter Bunny throwing eggs at it. I don't know how anyone could have expected it to survive all that.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   17:47:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#296. To: buckeroo (#289)

My GOD man ... you didn't see the initial explosions based on the impact of the jet aircraft? Every floor (above) was cut off from support systems as the fire ravaged.

Both the FEMA and NIST reports indicate the majority of the jet fuel was spent in the fireballs, external to the building, and the rest was consumed in the first few minutes. The fires were office fires, no better, no worse.

People were mostly in the windows due to SMOKE, as they couldn't breathe inside the building, and there probably WERE some parts of the aircraft that were on fire along with the office equipment.

Not hot enough to weaken steel, but hot enough to burn people and cause them distress.

You didn't see the hundreds of people leaping to their deaths because of the fires caused by the aircraft?

As I said, the fires were there, but they weren't hot enough to melt or weaken steel. Besides the temperature not being hot enough, the heat was absorbed by the building itself, wicking the majority of the heat into the rest of the building, away from the fire.

There WERE survivors on those impacted floors BTW.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   17:48:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#297. To: FormerLurker (#292)

BTW, did you have an opportunity to see the REAL seismic reports from Columbia university? Where are the explosions?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   17:49:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#298. To: buckeroo (#294)

BFD ...

BFD? YOU'RE the one claiming the steel was weakened by fire, which is not true. If it were possible, then the North tower would have fallen down back in 1975, where the fires raged for over 3 hours.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   17:51:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#299. To: buckeroo (#297)

Where are the explosions?

Horizontal cutting charges more than likely wouldn't have registered. You said yourself that the seismic data only showed the final stages of the collapse.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   17:52:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#300. To: FormerLurker (#296)

Both the FEMA and NIST reports indicate the majority of the jet fuel was spent in the fireballs, external to the building, and the rest was consumed in the first few minutes.

Thank you. I knew you would finally ADMIT that the air crashes were the initial trigger mechanism for and about the collapse..... I feel vindicated now.

But what you hide in your post is the fact that the jet aircraft struck into the central core, cutting off ALL capability of fire control to the upper floors besides the 6 floors (of each building) initially ignited by fire. Shame on you, pal.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   17:53:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#301. To: FormerLurker (#299)

NONO ... NO... those graphs show several seismic locations around the NYC area collaborating the initial crash with time and the later collapse.

You should read it.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   17:55:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#302. To: abraxas (#290)

It's as if Newton's simple experiments evaded your "profound" logic and the two of you continue to believe that bigger objects fall faster than smaller objects............and that all those floors beneath where the "collapse" began didn't offer any RESISTANCE

According to the science of KooKology, it's those twisting horizontal forces that caused the top to reach the ground at the same time as those lower levels, sort of like a wormhole or something.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   17:55:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#303. To: buckeroo (#301)

You should read it.

You've already explained it buck, you said that the data only shows the last few floors hitting. That IS what you said, isn't it?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   17:57:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#304. To: buckeroo (#293)

I didn't say it didn't fall........I said it didn't ACCELERATE as you and AGAviator were postulating. LOL

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   17:57:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#305. To: FormerLurker (#302)

Oh yes, I forgot to calculate that worm hole into the colllapse. lol

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   17:58:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#306. To: buckeroo (#300)

Thank you. I knew you would finally ADMIT that the air crashes were the initial trigger mechanism for and about the collapse..... I feel vindicated now.

Well YEAH, it was the initial LURE, getting all the network cameras focused on the WTC towers, then POOF, down they go once every station is broadcasting it live.

The COLLAPSE was the MAIN ATTRACTION, and IF they hadn't collapsed, not only would there be investigations and LOTS of time to examine evidence, but it wouldn't have had the same psychological impact.

That and Silverstein wouldn't have gotten his insurance money.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   18:00:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#307. To: abraxas, AGAviator (#304)

I said it didn't ACCELERATE as you and AGAviator were postulating.

But all three towers collapsed (with acceleration) that day. All photographic material suggests the three towers fell with increasing velocity (acceleration).

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   18:00:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#308. To: buckeroo (#300)

Hey Buck.........You're three hhhhhhhhhhuuuuuuuunnnnnnnneeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrttt!!

Who-Hoo!! : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   18:00:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#309. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#263) (Edited)

Yep, the building SHOULD NOT HAVE collapsed as if it were falling through a vacuum, yet buck's expert "calculated" precisely that.

There is a very good reason why real world controlled demolition uses so much time, energy, and materials to create conditions getting as close to free fall speeds as possible.

And the consequence of this reason is, if the collapse does not approach free fall speeds, it wasn't done by professional controlled demolition experts.

The reason is, it is known with complete certainty that the force of gravity, if unobstructed by other forces, will pull the building straight down into its own footprint. Where it can be neatly disposed of without damage to anything else not intended to be destroyed.

When the structure is not sufficiently prepared by getting rid of any and all remaining obstacles in the way of straight down vertical collapse, there are additional uncertainties introduced of timing, and rerouting gravitational forces in lines other than straight up and down.

So professional demolitions people take extra time to make sure the fall will be as close to vertical free fall speeds as possible to avoid introducing other variables which may cause unpredicable unmanageable results.

If a building doesn't fall at close to free fall speeds, its fall has not been set up by controlled demolition. Fifeeen seconds vs. nine seconds for a collapse is not even close to free fall speeds. The controlled demolition theory is debunked by actual and observed free fall speeds indicating lack of thorough setup for a building collapse many times larger than the largest recorded CD.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   18:00:50 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#310. To: FormerLurker (#306)

Well YEAH, it was the initial LURE, getting all the network cameras focused on the WTC towers, then POOF, down they go once every station is broadcasting it live.

Where are the recorded explosions coupled in time with columbia's documented, www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCS...0911_WTC/WTC_LDEO_KIM.pdf seismic recordings from several locations?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   18:03:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#311. To: buckeroo (#307)

But all three towers collapsed (with acceleration) that day. All photographic material suggests the three towers fell with increasing velocity (acceleration).

Accelerate from what? From free fall speeds? This is a huge problem that folks have with the goobermint accounting of events. Falling at the same rate that an object with NO RESISTANCE would fall craps on Newton's great works.

Increasing velocity should tell any person with an iota of knowledge about physics that we have a problem Houston......... You stick with the goobermint Buck, I'll stick with Newton on this one.

What does your photographic evidence prove? It could prove that the RESISTENCE within the cores of those buildings was removed......or Newton screwed up on his physics.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   18:05:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#312. To: AGAviator, ALL (#309)

If a building doesn't fall at close to free fall speeds, its fall has not been set up by controlled demolition. Fifeeen seconds vs. nine seconds for a collapse is not even close to free fall speeds. The controlled demolition theory is debunked by actual and observed free fall speeds indicating lack of thorough setup for a buliding collapse many times larger than the largest recorded CD.

Great post! Let us take a snapshot of what you are saying:

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   18:08:29 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#313. To: buckeroo (#300)

But what you hide in your post is the fact that the jet aircraft struck into the central core, cutting off ALL capability of fire control to the upper floors besides the 6 floors (of each building) initially ignited by fire. Shame on you, pal.

Where did I say anything of the sort? You just answered the question of why people were jumping, but it doesn't change the fact the fires weren't hot enough to melt or weaken the steel.

There WAS at least one stairwell left operational in the South Tower, but very few people were aware of it and perished, waiting for a rescue from the roof top...

From 911 Research

When the jet hit the South Tower, it cut off several routes of evacuating the 30 floors above the impact zone. It did leave at least one of the stairwells passable, and the New York Times found at least 18 people who escaped through that stairwell. Most people above the crash zone were not aware of the escape route, and at least 200 climbed toward the roof in hopes of being rescued there, only to find the doors to the roof locked. No one had told them that roof top rescue, which had been used in the 1993 bombing, was no longer an option. 3


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   18:13:46 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#314. To: abraxas (#311)

Increasing velocity should tell any person with an iota of knowledge about physics that we have a problem Houston.........

Does anyone of your "pals" concur with you? The idea of freefall is based on an object in Earth's gravitational field as with a constant acceleration constant which is known from the days of Galileo.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   18:15:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#315. To: FormerLurker (#313)

There WAS at least one stairwell left operational in the South Tower, but very few people were aware of it and perished, waiting for a rescue from the roof top...

Thank you, again. You see, it feels good to admit the truth, doesn't it.... coming out of the closet to admit that the water supplies were cut off and/or destroyed exacerbated the conflagration of the upper levels.

That same conflagration weakened the rated or otherwise designed stress loads leading to the collapse.

Again, I thank you Formerlurker.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   18:18:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#316. To: AGAviator (#309)

If a building doesn't fall at close to free fall speeds, its fall has not been set up by controlled demolition. Fifeeen seconds vs. nine seconds for a collapse is not even close to free fall speeds. The controlled demolition theory is debunked by actual and observed free fall speeds indicating lack of thorough setup for a building collapse many times larger than the largest recorded CD.

Wrong. All the demolition has to do is START the collapse, and with strategically placed charges and computer aided timing, the collapse can take however long they want it to in terms of structural collapse below the initial point of failure.

Thing is, it collapsed WAY too fast for gravity to have done it alone, where a falling body meeting resistance slows down, and the resistance may eventually give way, but it takes some finite amount of time for that to happen.

You're saying it took 6 seconds to smash and break EVERY iota of resistance, since the 9 seconds of falling through a vacuum doesn't correlate with the time it took to overcome the resistance.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   18:19:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#317. To: abraxas (#311)

Increasing velocity should tell any person with an iota of knowledge about physics that we have a problem Houston.........

Wow, we both used the word "iota" moments from each other. Looks like we're on the same "wavelength"... :)


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   18:20:41 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#318. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#316)

All the demolition has to do is START the collapse

But a demolition did not start the collapses. The jet crashes did.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   18:23:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#319. To: buckeroo (#314)

The idea of freefall is based on an object in Earth's gravitational field as with a constant acceleration constant which is known from the days of Galileo

Well, you are claiming an increasing velocity with all those floors offering RESISTANCE right? Let's just get what your claiming real clear, Buck. And, in the case of WT7, we are talking about 47 floors that had no magical jetfuel to "weaken" the steel at all. This is your claim.

I know what free fall is in relation to Newton's work with gravity. This is why your claims are so funny. What "constant acceleration" are you referring to? Acceleration, by it's very nature, ISN'T a CONSTANT.

Let me help you grasp what a CONSTANT is:

1.Something that is unchanging or invariable. 2. a.A quantity assumed to have a fixed value in a specified mathematical context. b.An experimental or theoretical condition, factor, or quantity that does not vary or that is regarded as invariant in specified circumstances.

lol......

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   18:23:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#320. To: buckeroo (#315)

coming out of the closet to admit that the water supplies were cut off and/or destroyed exacerbated the conflagration of the upper levels.

That same conflagration weakened the rated or otherwise designed stress loads leading to the collapse.

And again you're full of it buck. You apparently suffer defeat, only to claim victory in response.

There WERE no sprinklers back in 1975 either, yet the tower didn't turn into dust then, just like it SHOULDN'T have done on Sept. 11, 2001.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   18:24:30 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#321. To: buckeroo (#318)

But a demolition did not start the collapses. The jet crashes did.

Er, no buckie. The buildings did NOT start to fall down when they were hit. They did NOT start to fall till the precise time they collapsed.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   18:25:26 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#322. To: abraxas (#319)

Well, you are claiming an increasing velocity with all those floors offering RESISTANCE right?

Yes, that is why the buildings did not collapse at freefall. It doesn't mean, that they didn't fall with acceleration. In fact the collapse times are recorded to be longer than any freefall event.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   18:26:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#323. To: FormerLurker (#321)

The buildings did NOT start to fall down when they were hit.

So there was no debris scattered around immediately after the impacts?

They did NOT start to fall till the precise time they collapsed.

Not much time... it was amazing they stood for so long ... but it took time for the central structure to lose stress capability that caused the later crush down phase.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   18:29:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#324. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, James Deffenbach, all (#296)

To: buckeroo

My GOD man ... you didn't see the initial explosions based on the impact of the jet aircraft? Every floor (above) was cut off from support systems as the fire ravaged.

Both the FEMA and NIST reports indicate the majority of the jet fuel was spent in the fireballs, external to the building, and the rest was consumed in the first few minutes. The fires were office fires, no better, no worse.

People were mostly in the windows due to SMOKE, as they couldn't breathe inside the building, and there probably WERE some parts of the aircraft that were on fire along with the office equipment.

Not hot enough to weaken steel, but hot enough to burn people and cause them distress.

You didn't see the hundreds of people leaping to their deaths because of the fires caused by the aircraft?

As I said, the fires were there, but they weren't hot enough to melt or weaken steel. Besides the temperature not being hot enough, the heat was absorbed by the building itself, wicking the majority of the heat into the rest of the building, away from the fire.

There WERE survivors on those impacted floors BTW.

Battalion Chief Orio Palmer and his crew reached the 78th floor of the South Tower and Chief Palmer radioed back that there were isolated pockets of fire and that he would need two hoses and crews to "knock the flames down". That does not sound like a raging inferno. It sounds like an office fire that had engulfed part of the floor, but was by no means the Steel Melting Inferno™ engulfing the entire floor that NIST and the other advocates for the Official Fairy Tale™ attempt, falsely, to portray.

The same applies to the NIST estimates of the fire temperatures (arrived at by using a multi-megawatt heater in a test room the size of a living room) which are based on the burning of office furniture because even they have been forced to admit that the fuel was all burned in the first ten minutes (a story which has changed from the original which was that everything was attributable to the fuel).

As well the amount of damage actually done to the cores of the buildings is unknown as there was no direct photography of the building cores.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-19   18:33:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#325. To: abraxas (#319)

Acceleration, by it's very nature, ISN'T a CONSTANT.

Sorry abraxas, to be fair I have to say that acceleration due to Earth's gravity, here close to the Earth's surface IS in fact constant, and is approximately 32.2 feet per second per second. In other words, an object will accelerate 32 feet per second for each second it falls through a vacuum. Air resistance will slow it down a bit, depending on the size and shape of the object.

And of course, an ENTIRE BUILDING offers a bit more resistance than air, and is what keeps the rest of the building from falling down, but THAT part is what appears to baffle buck and AGovShill.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   18:35:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#326. To: buckeroo (#323)

So there was no debris scattered around immediately after the impacts?

Well they DID find a passport, but not much of the aircraft. Besides the exit hole debris, nope.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   18:36:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#327. To: Original_Intent (#324)

Battalion Chief Orio Palmer and his crew reached the 78th floor of the South Tower and Chief Palmer radioed back that there were isolated pockets of fire and that he would need two hoses and crews to "knock the flames down". That does not sound like a raging inferno.

That was many floors below both towers from the immediate impact consuming as many as 6 floors each initially. The initial crashes were at 96th and 81st stories, so your point doesn't stand up .... other than substantiate that EVEN lower floors were being devastated.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   18:38:23 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#328. To: buckeroo (#323)

Not much time... it was amazing they stood for so long ... but it took time for the central structure to lose stress capability that caused the later crush down phase.

Not amazing at all, what's amazing is that they fell at all, never mind disintegrate into dust while coming down close to free fall speeds.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   18:38:41 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#329. To: FormerLurker (#326)

But where were the demolitions placed and by whom? You worry about some silly passport when the challenge of this thread is about demolition theory.... why did you do that?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   18:40:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#330. To: buckeroo (#322)

One more time and I'll ask you REAL slow........

Accelerate from WHAT? From free fall speed?

What Newton's wonderful experiment showed was that if you drop a penny and a semi truck from the same height, with NO resitance, the two fall at the SAME SPEED. The semi doesn't fall faster because it is bigger and heavier.

In the case of these buildings--you have tens of lower floors, that were no where near any magical jet fuel, that were built to hold the weight of all the floors above them, that don't seem to make it into your calculations in regards to the RESISTANCE they would offer. In the case of WT7, you have 47 FLOORS that didn't have any magical jetfuel or even A PLANE CRASH into it--yet it simply falls into it's own footprint at NEAR free fall speeds.

Newton and I call BS on that story.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   18:40:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#331. To: FormerLurker (#328)

what's amazing is that they fell at all

ROTFL .... no building is designed to withstand that kind of impact.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   18:41:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#332. To: abraxas (#330)

Newton and I call BS on that story.

Go fetch your Newton for a better argument....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   18:43:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#333. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#327)

so your point doesn't stand up .... other than substantiate that EVEN lower floors were being devastated

There is not much of a difference between the 78th floor and the 81st floor, EACH plane banked before it hit and the wings tore into multiple floors.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   18:43:54 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#334. To: FormerLurker (#325)

to be fair I have to say that acceleration due to Earth's gravity, here close to the Earth's surface IS in fact constant, and is approximately 32.2 feet per second per second. In other words, an object will accelerate 32 feet per second for each second it falls through a vacuum. Air resistance will slow it down a bit, depending on the size and shape of the object.

I will grant that we have a calculation from Newton that demonstrates the FREE FALL Speeds we are discussing here. So, in this calculation this would be a constant because there is no variance. If Buck wishes to concede that he is using the free fall speed as a constant, then we have a place to work from.

However, Buck refuses to peg his concept of acceleration against the free fall speed calculation. I can't figure out what he deems to be accelerating in relation to anything else, nor can he tell me. I think he is being coy because he knows if we are gaging his "acceleration" against the free fall constant, that the RESISTANCE is completely ignored when the whole thing falls damn near free fall speed.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   18:46:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#335. To: buckeroo (#331)

ROTFL .... no building is designed to withstand that kind of impact.

The external wall was designed as a screen net, where you can poke a pencil through it without damaging the entire screen. The internal core was built of extremely thick and heavy steel columns, and if you look at the impact of WTC2, the jet went in on an angle and crossed the outer section of the tower, with the debris and fireball exiting out the near corner.

So not only was the damage mostly to the exterior wall, which was largely there to hang windows and offer lateral support against winds, but the inner core was largely unaffected in terms of actual impact. It more than likely suffered damage due to the initial explosion, and that is what damaged the elevators, but IF the core had been bent and started to sag, the sag would have been noticable, and the windows and exterior wall would have started breaking LONG before the actual collapse.

The building WAS in fact designed to withstand impacts of heavy jets, the speed of which is debatable, but they were in fact designed to handle those sorts of things.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   18:51:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#336. To: FormerLurker (#333)

There is not much of a difference between the 78th floor and the 81st floor

Granted... still, according to O_I, the 78th floor was already being consumed while the major fires were above.

I don't know about you but the last time I heard of heat dissipation was that it generally tends upward. As for the scattered fires on lower floors, of course... and that same creep occurred as the central core weakened.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   18:52:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#337. To: buckeroo (#331)

no building is designed to withstand that kind of impact.

So what IS your excuse for WT7?

Also the architect for those buildings claims they were indeed made to endure the impact of a 747.

Also, this architect calls BS on much of the story......he has far more experience in this field than you do Buck.

www.youtube.com/watch? v=ssuAMNas1us

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   18:54:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#338. To: abraxas (#334)

However, Buck refuses to peg his concept of acceleration against the free fall speed calculation.

BS... if anything, I agree about the resistive characteristics of the lower floors supporting the idea that the WTC BLDGS did not freefall. But that doesn't mean acceleration didn't take place; it just means that CD wasn't used and observable FACT supports my contention.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   18:55:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#339. To: buckeroo (#338)

Acceleration from free fall? We have a building falling at NEAR free fall speeeds.

Tell me what you are claiming acceleration from Buck? This is a simple questions I've asked six or twelve times now............

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   19:00:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#340. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent, abraxas, James Deffenbach, wudidiz, ALL (#329)

But where were the demolitions placed and by whom? You worry about some silly passport when the challenge of this thread is about demolition theory.... why did you do that?

You have to look at the totality of the evidence, not just what you wish to cherry pick.

As far as where they were placed and by whom, well if we had the answer to that there would be some arrests going on right now wouldn't there.

I can GUESS that they were placed in the elevator shafts during the work which was done prior to 9/11, and that those workers doing that work are the ones who actually planted the explosives.

Anybody ever investigate them, look into who exactly did the work?

Oh golly gee willickers, it looks like those records were DESTROYED on 9/11.

Port Authority of NY/NJ: Records For Reported WTC Renovation Work Destroyed On 9/11


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   19:00:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#341. To: abraxas (#337)

Also the architect for those buildings claims they were indeed made to endure the impact of a 747.

Your story is FALSE or fabricated.

The twins were designed for a 707 as in a FOG with a velocity well below 550mi/hr. (For you, that means much less inertial force as what occurred on 9/11 by the relative impacts caused by terrorist crashes)

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   19:02:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#342. To: buckeroo (#336)

Granted... still, according to O_I, the 78th floor was already being consumed while the major fires were above.

There were fires on the 78th floor as well buck, in fact, there'd probably be more fuel there than on the higher floors, since it would have spilt DOWN from the upper floors.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   19:05:23 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#343. To: abraxas (#337)

So what IS your excuse for WT7?

Also the architect for those buildings claims they were indeed made to endure the impact of a 747.

Also, this architect calls BS on much of the story......he has far more experience in this field than you do Buck.

Buck just keeps on repeating those old discredited canards. I wonder why.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   19:06:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#344. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#340)

You have to look at the totality of the evidence, not just what you wish to cherry pick.

BY GOLLY .. looking at your earlier post, you found a passport to PROVE/DISPROVE demolition theory .... good job!

As far as where they [demolitions] were placed and by whom, well if we had the answer to that there would be some arrests going on right now wouldn't there.

Beats me. In fact, if the government intended some covert activity as you say, why wouldn't they kill all the complicity folks... after-all, if the government murdered thousands of innocent people ... the immediate perpetrators should be easy targets as well. The problem with this idea is that who kills the top dawg?

I can GUESS that they were placed in the elevator shafts during the work which was done prior to 9/11, and that those workers doing that work are the ones who actually planted the explosives.

But why would the government do this?

Anybody ever investigate them, look into who exactly did the work?

All records of the BLDGS were destroyed that day.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   19:09:52 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#345. To: buckeroo (#344)

But why would the government do this?

The correct question would be, why would those who pull the STRINGS of the government do this...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   19:11:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#346. To: buckeroo (#341)

The twins were designed for a 707 as in a FOG with a velocity well below 550mi/hr. (For you, that means much less inertial force as what occurred on 9/11 by the relative impacts caused by terrorist crashes)

You prove, once again, that you don't know wtf you are talking about.

Statements by Engineers

Engineers who participated in the design of the World Trade Center have stated, since the attack, that the Towers were designed to withstand jetliner collisions. For example, Leslie Robertson, who is featured on many documentaries about the attack, said he "designed it for a (Boeing) 707 to hit it." 2 Statements and documents predating the attack indicate that engineers considered the effects of not only of jetliner impacts, but also of ensuing fires. John Skilling

John Skilling was the head structural engineer for the World Trade Center. In a 1993 interview, Skilling stated that the Towers were designed to withstand the impact and fires resulting from the collision of a large jetliner such as Boeing 707 or Douglas DC-8. Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed, ... The building structure would still be there. 3

A white paper released on February 3, 1964 states that the Towers could have withstood impacts of jetliners traveling 600 mph -- a speed greater than the impact speed of either jetliner used on 9/11/01.

911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/design.html

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   19:12:50 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#347. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#316)

You're saying it took 6 seconds to smash and break EVERY iota of resistance, since the 9 seconds of falling through a vacuum doesn't correlate with the time it took to overcome the resistance.

The whole purpose of the extensive preparation for controlled demolitions is to remove as much resistance to straight down free fall as possible.

If the resistance has not been removed, then there has not been controlled demolition preparation.

Whether the resistance comes from structural parts - which get removed prior to crash impact of the faliing floors - or an air cushion - which can be deflated by blowing out air passages prior to crash impact of falling floors - the resistance must be removed as much as possible, so the timing and the collapse direction are both as predicable and controllable as possible.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   19:13:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#348. To: buckeroo (#344)

if the government intended some covert activity as you say, why wouldn't they kill all the complicity folks... after-all, if the government murdered thousands of innocent people

Who's to say they didn't? Not the higher ups, of course, but those doing the "dirty work". They could have been foreign nationals who didn't have a problem with it, and who were highly trained operatives of some intelligence agency or special forces group, who knows...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   19:14:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#349. To: AGAviator (#347)

The whole purpose of the extensive preparation for controlled demolitions is to remove as much resistance to straight down free fall as possible.

If the resistance has not been removed, then there has not been controlled demolition preparation.

If you place explosives into a building and control the detonation, it is a controlled demolition, whether or not a delay is used. Geesh, still munching on those stupid pills?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   19:15:41 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#350. To: James Deffenbach (#346)

John Skilling was the head structural engineer for the World Trade Center. In a 1993 interview, Skilling stated that the Towers were designed to withstand the impact and fires resulting from the collision of a large jetliner such as Boeing 707 or Douglas DC-8. Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed, ... The building structure would still be there.

Thank you for verifying my earlier post. You are dynamite!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   19:15:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#351. To: buckeroo (#344)

All records of the BLDGS were destroyed that day.

Not all, if you bothered reading the link I posted.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   19:17:04 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#352. To: buckeroo (#350)

a large jetliner such as Boeing 707 or Douglas DC-8

Yeah, flying at 600 mph.

A 707 is comparable to a 767.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   19:18:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#353. To: buckeroo (#350) (Edited)

Buck, you are indeed a dumb@$$ or play the part very well. A 707 is not a lot smaller than a 767. If you want to educate yourself just a little--and even a little would help you a lot--click on that handy link I provided for you.

edit: I will help you out this much more and then you are on your own.

Given the differences in cruise speeds, a 707 in normal flight would actually have more kinetic energy than a 767, despite the slightly smaller size. Note the similar fuel capacities of both aircraft. The 767s used on September 11th were estimated to be carrying about 10,000 gallons of fuel each at the time of impact, only about 40% of the capacity of a 707 (fuel capacity for the 707 is 23,000 gallons, the 767 is 23,980).

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   19:19:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#354. To: James Deffenbach, abraxas, FormerLurker, Buckmonster Fullofit, buckeroo, all (#343)

Buck just keeps on repeating those old discredited canards. I wonder why.

Because that is all he has.

The Pop Mechanics piece has been shredded and proven false.

The NOVA piece has been shredded and proven false.

The FEMA Report has been shredded and proven false.

The NIST Report has been shown evasive and incomplete including speculation along side fact. And it provides NO analysis as to why the buildings collapsed in the manner they did they just wave it off with a shrug saying "it was inevitable". Of course the report does not address why it was inevitable or the mechanism by which it worked. They don't even use Eager's "Pancakes".

Oh, Professor Eager is virtually the only high profile academic who still supports the Official Conspiracy Theory™ but he will not submit to interviewing nor does he provide any documentation, calculations, etc., which support the Official Conspiracy Theory™.

About the only thing left to the defender of 911 Lies is to repeat the same objections, and Strawman Arguments over and over ad nauseam. They can produce nothing definitive proving the Official Conspiracy Theory™.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-19   19:23:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#355. To: James Deffenbach, buckeroo (#346)

The twins were designed for a 707 as in a FOG with a velocity well below 550mi/hr. (For you, that means much less inertial force as what occurred on 9/11 by the relative impacts caused by terrorist crashes)

You prove, once again, that you don't know wtf you are talking about.

No, Tw00fster, you don't know WTF you're talking about.

Federal airspace rules prohibit any commercial aircraft from going over 250 KIAS below 10,000 altitude or in "Class B airspace" which surrounds jet airports.

New York City is completely covered by both restrictions.

There would be no reason to design a building able to withstand a crash whose speed presumably never would be allowed by Air Traffic Control in the first place.

Furthermore, structural engineer calculations aren't built in mockups and then tested to make sure the calculations are correct.

Last but not least, there is no record of a design specifying a 500 mph impact. This is hearsay unsupported by any files.

If you have a file supporting 500 mph impact of a 707/767 the produce it.

You lie, you lose.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   19:23:23 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#356. To: Original_Intent (#354)

The Pop Mechanics piece has been shredded and proven false.

Only YOU have introduced these documents

The NOVA piece has been shredded and proven false.

Only YOU have introduced these documents

The FEMA Report has been shredded and proven false.

Only YOU have introduced these documents

In effect, you are what you preach.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   19:25:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#357. To: Original_Intent (#354)

Oh, Professor Eager is virtually the only high profile academic who still supports the Official Conspiracy Theory™ but he will not submit to interviewing nor does he provide any documentation, calculations, etc., which support the Official Conspiracy Theory™.

Eager's salary may depend on him not understanding that he is lying. Or at least to not admit it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   19:26:04 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#358. To: AGAviator (#355)

You lie, you lose.

Well then, you've lost long ago if that's true...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   19:26:13 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#359. To: buckeroo (#350)

Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building

LOL. The scenario they're quoting to support their CT says the fuel gets dumped inside the building,

While elsewhere they argue against thermal energy from the 767's by saying the jet fuel mostly burns harmlessly outside the outer walls.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   19:28:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#360. To: James Deffenbach (#353)

John Skilling was the head structural engineer for the World Trade Center. In a 1993 interview, Skilling stated that the Towers were designed to withstand the impact and fires resulting from the collision of a large jetliner such as Boeing 707 or Douglas DC-8. Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed, ... The building structure would still be there.

So now you are backing off from your own authoritative source? Why is that? Are you doubting yourself or can't produce a single post worth my time considering the demolition theory?

Mayhaps you just want to argue.... but your own resource says what I have discussed.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   19:32:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#361. To: AGAviator (#359)

I know. They are actually agreeing with the FACT that no demolitions were used.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   19:33:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#362. To: AGAviator (#359)

While elsewhere they argue against thermal energy from the 767's by saying the jet fuel mostly burns harmlessly outside the outer walls.

So now NIST and FEMA are "CT'ers"? They're the ones who stated the obvious, in that the majority of the fuel was expended in the fireballs, and that the remaining fuel was spent in the first several minutes after impact.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   19:36:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#363. To: buckeroo (#361)

They are actually agreeing with the FACT that no demolitions were used.

Liar. According to AGovShill's rules, you LOSE.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   19:36:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#364. To: FormerLurker (#363)

Liar.

Where were the demolitions placed? Where is the timing of the demolitions? Who performed the demolitions? Who paid for the demolitions? Why were the demolitions placed? How and what kind of demolitions were placed?

Until you can answer these simple questions, you should look at yourself, pal.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   19:42:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#365. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, James Deffenbach, abraxas, IRTorqued, wuddiz, all (#347)

You're saying it took 6 seconds to smash and break EVERY iota of resistance, since the 9 seconds of falling through a vacuum doesn't correlate with the time it took to overcome the resistance.

The whole purpose of the extensive preparation for controlled demolitions is to remove as much resistance to straight down free fall as possible.

If the resistance has not been removed, then there has not been controlled demolition preparation.

Whether the resistance comes from structural parts - which get removed prior to crash impact of the faliing floors - or an air cushion - which can be deflated by blowing out air passages prior to crash impact of falling floors - the resistance must be removed as much as possible, so the timing and the collapse direction are both as predicable and controllable as possible.

The problem of course with your assumptions is that they are just that - not facts.

One could just as easily posit that the planners of the 911 event designed it with the cover story in mind. After all it was a PsyOp and they had no desire to be hung from a stout rope. So, one can presume that they wished to make it look close to a natural collapse while avoiding damage to nearby buildings. At which they were reasonably successful.

However, given the uniform, symmetrical, collapse into their own footprint the image of a controlled demolition could not not be wholly avoided. Neither could they avoid that neither before nor since has a similar structure collapsed in this fashion except from a controlled demolition.

Given the rate of collapse of the structures and your presumption that in a controlled demolition that as much as possible the resistance under the structure must be removed appears to be met by the observed phenomena. As well is the curious fact that the tower hit last, with the least damage to the core, given the impact and exit angles, collapsed first. That in and of itself is an interesting datum.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-19   19:47:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#366. To: buckeroo (#360)

So now you are backing off from your own authoritative source? Why is that? Are you doubting yourself or can't produce a single post worth my time considering the demolition theory?

You can't be as idiotic as this makes you look. If you were you couldn't even turn a computer on, much less use it. But to answer your stupid question, no, I am not backing off from any source I have posted. They made the point that a 767 is not much larger than a 707 and that the towers were indeed designed to withstand the impact of commercial airliners--and one would assume airplanes with fuel, they rarely fly without it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   19:49:04 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#367. To: buckeroo (#364)

Where were the demolitions placed? Where is the timing of the demolitions? Who performed the demolitions? Who paid for the demolitions? Why were the demolitions placed? How and what kind of demolitions were placed?

Until you can answer these simple questions, you should look at yourself, pal.

Who screwed up the Deepwater Horizon? What was his name? Who gave him his orders? Who told the Coast Guard to drive journalists away from the oil cleanup sites? What were their names?

Don't get cute with me there bucko. Just because the people who are SUPPOSED to investigate these things DIDN'T, and instead played a game of high stakes geopolitical conquest and clamped down on the US People with their draconian new laws, doesn't mean there isn't a guilty party behind it all.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   19:49:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#368. To: buckeroo (#364)

Where were the demolitions placed? Where is the timing of the demolitions? Who performed the demolitions? Who paid for the demolitions? Why were the demolitions placed? How and what kind of demolitions were placed?

Wow, Buck, all of these questions.....it appears you are seeking the truth of the matter. You must be a truther. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   19:51:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#369. To: James Deffenbach (#366)

Jimmy: But to answer your stupid[?] question, no, I am not backing off from any source I have posted.

Jimmy: John Skilling was the head structural engineer for the World Trade Center. In a 1993 interview, Skilling stated that the Towers were designed to withstand the impact and fires resulting from the collision of a large jetliner such as Boeing 707 or Douglas DC-8. Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed, ... The building structure would still be there.

What ever you say.... ROTFL.....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   19:56:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#370. To: buckeroo (#369)

9/11 Debunker Gets His Ass Handed To Him By Richard Gage - 20/07/2009 www.youtube.com/watch? v=VKFiGfW6aGY

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   19:58:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#371. To: FormerLurker (#367)

Don't get cute with me there bucko.

ROTFL ...

Where is at least one teeny, weenie, little ittsy-bitsy, tiny fact supporting any demolitions were used?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   19:58:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#372. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, James Deffenbach, abraxas, all (#344)

But why would the government do this?

Earth to buck!

Earth to buck!

Do you read me buck?

It was a PsyOp buck!

I repeat - it was a PsyOp buck.

It is spelled out right in the PNAC report i.e., "a new Pearl Harbor". A rather appropriate comparison too given that the Japanese were maneuvered into attacking by FDR, who knew the attack was coming, withheld the information from the Base Commander and CINCPACFLT, and then court martialed them as the cherry on top.

The obvious motivation was to create a psychological environment among the American Public which would support the wars in the Middle East taking out Israel's geopolitical rivals, and preventing Saddam from flooding the Oil Market with cheap Iraqi Oil.

So, what was needed was an event horrendous enough and numbing enough to allow passage of such as the Un-Patriot Act, all ten thousands pages of which were put forth the week after 911 (you don't write a ten thousand page bill in a week so obviously it was already on the shelf and waiting), and passed without printed copies ever being distributed to the Congress. This is right out of the Tavistock Manual that got leaked during the Kosovo massacre. Tavistock Institute is Britain's premier Psychiatric Think Tank and PsyOps Factory. Why even one of the 7/7 bombers blew up in front of Tavistock. Talk about synergy.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-19   19:59:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#373. To: James Deffenbach (#366)

"...airplanes with fuel, they rarely fly without it."

Anyone that thinks jet fuel would generate the heat needed to take these towers down might think planes fly without fuel.

Both notions are the same level of dumbness.

Ferret  posted on  2010-07-19   20:01:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#374. To: James Deffenbach (#357)

Oh, Professor Eager is virtually the only high profile academic who still supports the Official Conspiracy Theory™ but he will not submit to interviewing nor does he provide any documentation, calculations, etc., which support the Official Conspiracy Theory™.

Eager's salary may depend on him not understanding that he is lying. Or at least to not admit it.

Oh, I'm sure it does. It is well known the M.I.T. has deep ties to the black budget community - specifically CIA.

Eager appears to have been brought on board to provide "credibility" to the preposterous Official Conspiracy Theory™. However, he can only do so much with a set of facts which require multiple twists and turns to fit the Approved Story®. Those twists, turns, and distortions that he must use to support the Approved Story® are why he dare not allow himself to be questioned or interviewed by someone knowledgeable about the Official Conspiracy Theory™ and Engineering/Physics - he would be ripped apart and shredded like a cheap suit in a rain storm.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-19   20:05:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#375. To: Original_Intent (#372)

Link please.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   20:06:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#376. To: James Deffenbach, abraxas, buckeroo (#343)

Buck just keeps on repeating those old discredited canards. I wonder why.

Because it seems that ol bucky boy has gone shill on us. Tis a shame.


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-19   20:07:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#377. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#358)

Well then, you've lost long ago

Loser, here is a partial list of deficiencies you cannot answer with any satisfaction. As time goes on the list will get bigger.

Just as a partial list, you've been provided explicit proofs of the following phenomena and many others.

(1) Two aircraft crashes released gigajoules of kinetic energy into the Twin Tower structures, and within 2 hours both structures collapsed from structural damage,
(2) A fireman is recorded on video saying a third WTC Building, WTC7, will be going down because the building is losing its structural stability from crash damage and uncontrolled fires,
(3) Over 30 calls from hijacked aircraft were logged including several by flight attendants giving seat numbers and descriptions of hijackers,
(4) The false statement that Flight 77's cabin door was not opened has been demonstrated to be a lie, as there is no evidence about any cabin door operation of that aircraft either during or before the September 11 flight,
(5) The lauded "peer review publication" of Tw00ferk00ks Steven Jones and Niels Harrit have been shown to be pay-to- publish articles for which $800 was given to a Dhubai publishing mill, with zero other peer reviewed articles
(6) The phrase "pull" as used by the demolition industry means "pull down with cables," and as used by firefighters means "pull back from site,"
(7) Flight 77 impacted a recently-renovated portion of the Pentagon which was not fully occupied and still had construction equipment in place, and
(8) It's a physical impossibliity for a structure to both be flexible enough to absorb gigajoules of energy, move away from vertical centerline, return to vertical centerline on its own, then be rigid enough to provide a fixed platform for a rotating and falling top section to collapse outside the building footprint and
(9) The actual free fall times of the WTC towers have been conclusively shown as 15+ seconds for 1 tower and 22+ seconds for the other, an order of magnitude above the claimed "free fall time" of 9.22 seconds which is supposed to be evidence of a controlled demolition

That's just a partial list of the issues about which you and your cotiere have been batted on from one end of the forum to another. There are plenty of others. Your attempts to evade and make things personal is noted, as well as noted as being unsuccessful.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   20:07:49 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#378. To: Critter (#376)

Because it seems that ol bucky boy has gone shill on us.

Jim ... cool it!

So far, no one has any data to present that dispels the official government account. I think the closest approach was some janitor that was in the basement of one of the towers screaming for his life because of the tremendous acoustical energy he dealt with.

That proves nothing about demolitions.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   20:11:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#379. To: James Deffenbach, Orginal_Indent, buckeroo, turtle (#357) (Edited)

Oh, Professor Eager is virtually the only high profile academic who still supports the Official Conspiracy Theory™ but he will not submit to interviewing nor does he provide any documentation, calculations, etc., which support the Official Conspiracy Theory™.

Eager's salary may depend on him not understanding that he is lying. Or at least to not admit it.

BullShit.

You people have already been challenged to prove any one of Eagar's 14 Patents or 230 Papers Peer Reviewed false, and none of you you has even attempted to do so, let alone find anything wrong with any of his achievements.

Yet like the total moral coward you are, you anonymously attack Eagar as a liar without supplying any proof of your own.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   20:15:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#380. To: buckeroo (#369)

Does your salary depend on your not understanding simple facts, buck? Do they pay you enough to make yourself look so stupid?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   20:18:46 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#381. To: Critter (#376)

Because it seems that ol bucky boy has gone shill on us. Tis a shame.

Yeah, who woulda thunk it? Buck never used to come across as a shill but the government doesn't seem to have a better friend these days, what with all his lies about how they wouldn't do anything like that while he overlooks all the overt murdering they have done.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   20:20:30 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#382. To: James Deffenbach (#380)

Do you stand by your own posts?

.. Jimmy says: a large jetliner such as Boeing 707 thus agreeing with buckeroo that the design of the BLDGS were out of parameters on 9/11

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   20:24:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#383. To: AGAviator, James Deffenbach, Original_Indent (#379)

Yet like the total moral coward you are, you anonymously attack Eagar as a liar without supplying any proof of your own.

Show where in Eager's analysis he treats the collapse as a set of inelastic collsions, and where he states kinetic energy can't be used in the momentum calculations since at least some of the kinetic energy was transfered to other forms of energy.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   20:25:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#384. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, abraxas, all (#375)

The CIA on Campus

The CIA Meets MIT@Everything2.com

Political Friendster - CIA - Connections

Ralph McGehee: CIA Past, Present and Future, Part I

MIT Enterprise Forum - Entrepreneurship Broadcast

Science, Technology and Nation-Building in - 1 1 Exporting MIT ... (pdf download)

Tavistock: The Best Kept Secret in America

Panetta to Be Named C.I.A. Director - The Caucus Blog - NYTimes.com

If I wanted to spend the time I could dig out a lot more. However, as you can see, there are plenty of links.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-19   20:26:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#385. To: AGAviator (#377)

The actual free fall times of the WTC towers have been conclusively shown as 15+ seconds for 1 tower and 22+ seconds for the other, an order of magnitude above the claimed "free fall time" of 9.22 seconds which is supposed to be evidence of a controlled demolition

6 seconds to break and smash every supporting piece of the structure is not enough time to do so.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   20:26:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#386. To: James Deffenbach, buckeroo (#381)

First global warming, then peak oil, now official conspiracy theory? Where does it end?

Next he'll be saying that Bill Clinton was the best president since George Washington himself.


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-19   20:26:50 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#387. To: buckeroo (#382)

Just keep it up, buck. It only makes you look even more stupid than you already did.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   20:28:26 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#388. To: buckeroo (#371)

Where is at least one teeny, weenie, little ittsy-bitsy, tiny fact supporting any demolitions were used?

Do you have anything between your ears other than balls of wax? It's been explained to you OVER, and OVER, and OVER. That you can't or won't understand it is your problem, not mine.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   20:28:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#389. To: Critter (#386)

Next he'll be saying that Bill Clinton was the best president since George Washington himself.

Nah, he will be saying Obama is.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   20:29:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#390. To: AGAviator (#377)

Over 30 calls from hijacked aircraft were logged including several by flight attendants giving seat numbers and descriptions of hijackers,

Uh huh, and 7-9 of those 19 James Bond like characters are still alive and well, as reported by international news agencies.

Yea, and those cell phone calls were impossible back in 2001, while at cruising altitude and speed.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   20:30:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#391. To: Critter (#386)

First global warming, then peak oil, now official conspiracy theory?

LOL, that's the trifecta right there.


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-19   20:30:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#392. To: AGAviator (#379) (Edited)

Oh, Professor Eager is virtually the only high profile academic who still supports the Official Conspiracy Theory™ but he will not submit to interviewing nor does he provide any documentation, calculations, etc., which support the Official Conspiracy Theory™.

Eager's salary may depend on him not understanding that he is lying. Or at least to not admit it.

BullShit.

You people have already been challenged to prove any one of Eagar's 14 Patents or 230 Papers Peer Reviewed false, and none of you you has even attempted to do so, let alone find anything wrong with any of his achievements.

Yet like the total moral coward you are, you anonymously attack Eagar as a liar without supplying any proof of your own.

I could give a rat's behind how many patents or papers Eager has or has published.

That is an appeal to authority which is one of the logical fallacies. It has no evidenciary weight. All it establishes is that yes, Eager has patented and published. It proves nothing in regard to his unsubstantiated opinion.

It occurred to me after I posted this originally that your post qualifies for another award:

Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation

2. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the 'How dare you!' gambit.

Further I said there are no other academics of similar stature supporting him and he will not take interviews except from friendly sources.

So you can whine all you want. The comment stands substantiated.

Next.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-19   20:32:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#393. To: FormerLurker (#388)

It's been explained to you OVER, and OVER, and OVER.

Spell it out for me in a single post... do it here, on this thread about what has been explained.

So far, I haven't seen any data or FACTS to support that a government agency set any demolition on 9/11. So now is your opportunity to clarify who, what, when, where and why it all transpired.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   20:33:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#394. To: AGAviator (#377)

Flight 77 impacted a recently-renovated portion of the Pentagon which was not fully occupied and still had construction equipment in place, and

Yet took out the "bean counters" who were investigating where all that missing money, you know, the missing 2.3 TRILLION DOLLARS, disappeared to.

Oh yeah, and the aircraft diverted from a direct path to Rumsfeld's office, turned, and headed for the less occupied section of the building.

All flown by a inept goober who couldn't fly a single engine Cessna.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   20:33:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#395. To: James Deffenbach (#387)

John Skilling was the head structural engineer for the World Trade Center. In a 1993 interview, Skilling stated that the Towers were designed to withstand the impact and fires resulting from the collision of a large jetliner such as Boeing 707 or Douglas DC-8. Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed,

Thank you Jimmy for introducing data about the fuel dump based upon the original design team's own fears. You are awesome!

Just keep it up, buck.

Cat got your tongue?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   20:38:46 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#396. To: buckeroo (#393)

Spell it out for me in a single post... do it here, on this thread about what has been explained.

Collapse would not have been symetrical, for one. It also would not have taken little more than a mere 6 extra seconds (the 15 second collapse time is a stretch, but we'll use it anyways to avoid quibling), to crush, smash, and break every bit and piece of the structure that was supporting the building. An actual collapse precipitated by structural damage would have been asymetrical, and more than likely would have stopped after the top of the building would have either wedged into the lower structure, or slid off.

Additionally, in terms of the COVERUP, EVERY AND ANY terrorist act concerning buildings have involved explosives, and for the media and the "experts" to instantly "rule out" the possibility of explosives, and deride anyone who brings up the very notion of it being possible, wreaks of complicity.

ALSO, the fact that the buildings DISINTEGRATED on their way down, where the vast majority of the towers turned to dust, raises questions as to whether such a thing happened due to gravity alone.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   20:41:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#397. To: buckeroo (#395)

Buck, you are posting stuff out of context. Anyone who wants to can click on the links where you dishonestly cherry pick here and there and see for themselves that the buildings were built to withstand the impacts of jetliners. And of course they probably figured they might have some fuel on board since it is kinda hard for them to get in the air without it. But if you want to keep on making yourself look more and more like a fool it certainly doesn't bother me.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   20:42:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#398. To: buckeroo (#393)

Spell it out for me in a single post... do it here, on this thread about what has been explained.

Now, explain to me in one post, why photographs of the damage were prohibited, why there was no forensic analysis of the debris, and why the debris was carted off to China as quickly as possible.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   20:43:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#399. To: FormerLurker (#394)

All flown by a inept goober who couldn't fly a single engine Cessna.

And from Ohio! Supposedly unaided by any flight controllers and not knowing $#it about flying a heavy commercial airliner. Kinda stands to reason that if he couldn't fly a single engine Cessna a 767 would be a bit out of his league.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   20:52:32 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#400. To: FormerLurker (#396) (Edited)

Collapse would not have been symetrical, for one.

Explain that position... as the upper floors were off by about 20 degrees from the vertical center line of the bldg. And that was just appearance to the naked eye.

It also would not have taken little more than a mere 6 extra seconds (the 15 second collapse time is a stretch, but we'll use it anyways to avoid quibling), to crush, smash, and break every bit and piece of the structure that was supporting the building. An actual collapse precipitated by structural damage would have been asymetrical, and more than likely would have stopped after the top of the building would have either wedged into the lower structure, or slid off.

Actually the central core didn't fall for much longer from floors 22 and below.

Additionally, in terms of the COVERUP, EVERY AND ANY terrorist act concerning buildings have involved explosives, and for the media and the "experts" to instantly "rule out" the possibility of explosives, and deride anyone who brings up the very notion of it being possible, wreaks of complicity.

Is this the data that proves to me OVER and OVER and OVER that the US government was complicit in 9/11? I thought I had asked for FACTS.....

ALSO, the fact that the buildings DISINTEGRATED on their way down, where the vast majority of the towers turned to dust, raises questions as to whether such a thing happened due to gravity alone.

I guess you don't know how gypsum wall board is easily crushed; tons of gypsum was pulverized that day due to mammoth heat and pressures exerted.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   20:52:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#401. To: James Deffenbach (#399)

Kinda stands to reason that if he couldn't fly a single engine Cessna a 767 would be a bit out of his league.

Yeah, but AGovShill and buck ensure us that he could, just because they say so.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   20:54:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#402. To: FormerLurker (#398)

Now, explain to me in one post, why photographs of the damage were prohibited, why there was no forensic analysis of the debris, and why the debris was carted off to China as quickly as possible.

I can't. It seems silly to me too but that doesn't mean demolition charges were set, collapsing the WTC.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   20:55:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#403. To: buckeroo (#371)

Where is at least one teeny, weenie, little ittsy-bitsy, tiny fact supporting any demolitions were used?

The TEENIEST little fact is found in the NANO THERMITE found withint the WTC debris.

That's a nano fact.....

Read all about it in Professor Steven E. Jones' peer reviewed paper.....here's a little taste: Iron-rich sphere, found in the dust of the World Trade Center, as documented by the United States Geological Survey and RJ LeeGroup, Inc. As noted by RJ Lee in its report, the iron-rich spheres, which are a common component of the WTC dust, are indicative of molten iron, which forms the spheres due to surface tension. The spheres are of interest to the 9/11 Truth movement in its study of the WTC building failures, as they are indicative of the presence of temperatures much hotter than office fires, and they are also a common end product of thermitic reactions, as discussed in the paper 'Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe', by Niels H. Harrit, et. al. The paper describes how nano-scale thermitic material can be chemically tailored to function as an explosive, and it illustrates how iron-rich spheres are an end product from the ignition of thermitic materials. According to Steven Jones, a co-author of the "Active Thermitic Material" paper and a leading figure in the 9/11 Truth movement, NIST did not look for evidence of explosive residue.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   20:58:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#404. To: FormerLurker (#401)

Yeah, but AGovShill and buck ensure us that he could, just because they say so.

But anyone who would take the word of people who love the government so much "ain't quite right." Know what I mean?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   21:04:04 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#405. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#392)

I could give a rat's behind how many patents or papers Eager has or has published.

That is an appeal to authority which is one of the logical fallacies. It has no evidenciary weight

Bull$hit again. You lie as easily as you breathe.

The only false argument being made is your own ad hominem

Eagar has made specific physics and engineering based statements regarding the WTC collapses.

When you say he's lying without offering any proof, you're saying you know more about physics and engineering than he does.

Not only are you unable to rebut any of Eagar's physics and engineering statements about the WTC collapses, you're unable to rebut any of his entire body of published and patented work produced throughout his decades-long career.

On one hand we have a physics and engineering professional who is known worldwide for his demonstrated accomplishments.

On the other we have an anonymous internet k00kster, hiding under a cyber rock, calling the professional a liar, but completely unable to rebut either his statements on the subject at hand, or any other of the voluminous work the professional has done over decades.

You're an anonymous coward, a liar, and a loser.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   21:08:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#406. To: buckeroo (#402)

Time to take your six shooters home lil buckeroo, your mama's callin.


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-19   21:08:19 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#407. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#390)

Yea, and those cell phone calls were impossible back in 2001, while at cruising altitude and speed.

Wrong. Several carriers at the time have gone on record saying they were possible especially over non-urban areas, though with spotty service and subject to cutoffs.

However there were not any such problems with satellite phone calls from the aircraft, which a number of receivers classifed as "cell phone" calls.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   21:10:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#408. To: abraxas (#403)

The TEENIEST little fact is found in the NANO THERMITE found withint the WTC debris.

Here is another way to see your idea is dispelled:

Clearly the BLDGS buckled under the weight of the upper floors.

Your reference to nano-thermite is ludicrous... link, please.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   21:12:28 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#409. To: Critter (#406)

LOL! Thanks for the laugh. I needed that.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   21:12:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#410. To: buckeroo (#408)

Why should ANYONE post any links for you? So you can go and take stuff out of context and pretend it says the opposite of what it actually says?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   21:14:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#411. To: AGAviator (#407)

saying they were possible

What was the probability?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   21:17:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#412. To: James Deffenbach, AGAviator, ALL (#410)

you can go and take stuff out of context and pretend it says the opposite of what it actually says?

Jimmy, I just want you to bow before our esteemed 9/11 audience because of your diligence in helping the thread hypothesis along with both me and AG. You are awesome!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   21:20:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#413. To: Critter (#406)

That's funny, Jim. Still you have no evidence, supporting data, a single factoid, a witness, evidence, other than mere speculation, rumour, gossip, silly web-sites, pseudo-scientists, innuendo, redundant regurgitation of the aforementioned same ... to dispel the government official story or otherwise show that explosives or demolition was intentionally set on 9/11.

You can do better than posting a silly picture of a caricature about yourself within your own mind's eye.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   21:29:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#414. To: buckeroo (#412)

Due to your shilling, continual lying, taking stuff out of context and trying to make it appear that I in any way agree with you and Aggravator, it's off to the clown filter for you. Adios.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   21:46:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#415. To: James Deffenbach, AGAviator (#414)

Due to your shilling, continual lying, taking stuff out of context and trying to make it appear that I in any way agree with you and Aggravator, it's off to the clown filter for you. Adios.

I guess you don't understand what you performed by agreeing with the structural design by using the original design team references about the towers. Please come back and take a bow on this thread! Thank you in advance as always!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   21:51:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#416. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, IRTorqued, Kamala, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#405)

I could give a rat's behind how many patents or papers Eager has or has published.

That is an appeal to authority which is one of the logical fallacies. It has no evidenciary weight

Bull$hit again. You lie as easily as you breathe.

The only false argument being made is your own ad hominem

Eagar has made specific physics and engineering based statements regarding the WTC collapses.

When you say he's lying without offering any proof, you're saying you know more about physics and engineering than he does.

Not only are you unable to rebut any of Eagar's physics and engineering statements about the WTC collapses, you're unable to rebut any of his entire body of published and patented work produced throughout his decades-long career.

On one hand we have a physics and engineering professional who is known worldwide for his demonstrated accomplishments.

On the other we have an anonymous internet k00kster, hiding under a cyber rock, calling the professional a liar, but completely unable to rebut either his statements on the subject at hand, or any other of the voluminous work the professional has done over decades.

You're an anonymous coward, a liar, and a loser.

Not at all.

My attack was not against the person i.e., I did not make the point as resting solely on my dislike of Eagar.

My main points were:

1. There are no other academics of comparable stature that are supporting him in his defense of the Official Conspiracy Theory™, and neither does he substantiate his opinion in facts, figures, and known Physical Laws. In fact Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth boasts somewhere in the vicinity of 1,200 members who do not believe Dr. Eagar's unsupported pronouncements. Which I will add does not prove any of the issues we have discussed one way or the other. However, their website carries a substantial body of information which flies direct in the face of Eagar's pronouncements. Dr. Eagar, like NIST, dictates his opinion on authority not fact.

Here's a letter and comment by Christopher Bollyn:

Date: April 21, 2006

Provo, Utah

To: Thomas W. Eagar tweagar@MIT.EDU Department of Materials Science and Engineering Massachusetts Institute of Technology

From: Christopher Bollyn, American Free Press

Re: Professor Steven E. Jones Paper on Molten Metal at World Trade Center

"Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?"

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Dear Professor Eagar,

I was quite shocked when you refused to read the scientific paper by Professor Steven E. Jones of BYU dealing with the unanswered questions about the large amounts of molten metal that were seen cascading from the 81st floor of South Tower of the World Trade Center immediately before it began to collapse.

I was equally amazed when you said that there was no evidence of molten metal flowing from the 81st floor of the South Tower prior to the collapse and that this is some sort of hearsay.

And I was most disappointed when you suddenly hung up the phone on me.

Why are you unwilling to discuss the evidence of molten metal at the World Trade Center - before and after the "collapses?" It certainly appears that you were unable to answer my questions and decided to run away.

What do you call these attached photos showing molten metal cascading from the South Tower? Fakes?

(Note that Prof. Jones proves that this is not aluminum as some of the reports suggest. Molten aluminum is silver-gray in daylight.)

Why do you refuse to review the paper by Prof. Steven E. Jones of Brigham Young University about the molten metal found at the World Trade Center, before and after the collapses?

Professor Jones' webpage is here:

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/

His paper on the molten metal is here:

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

His research is the natural scientific investigation and follow-up of the unanswered questions, which are raised by the evidence and presented in the FEMA and NIST studies, serious scientific problems which these agencies clearly said required further study.

What kind of scientist are you anyway?

Rather than running from the research of Professor Jones, you should welcome and embrace such efforts to answer the questions of 9-11. As Jones says, "The data stands on its own."

What is this seriously-flawed "official version" of 9-11, which you seem to support, a religious myth that cannot be challenged?

Signed,

Christopher Bollyn American Free Press Washington, D.C.

Photo: This photo from the NE corner of the South Tower shows a cascade of molten metal flowing from the 80th or 81st floor immediately prior to the collapse of the building. Professor Eagar has written about the fires at the World Trade Center, (see - http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html) in which he states:

"However, it is highly unlikely that the steel at the WTC experienced temperatures above the 750–800°C range. All reports that the steel melted at 1,500°C are using imprecise terminology at best.

"Some reports," Eagar wrote, "suggest that the aluminum from the aircraft ignited, creating very high temperatures. While it is possible to ignite aluminum under special conditions, such conditions are not commonly attained in a hydrocarbon-based diffuse flame. In addition, the flame would be white hot, like a giant sparkler. There was no evidence of such aluminum ignition, which would have been visible even through the dense soot."

Well, Mr. Eagar, what are we seeing here?

End of Article

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. I refuted and showed how your appeal to authority was logically false.

P.S.: "Mr. Good bar says: Go Fuck Yourself. Do it today."

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-19   22:02:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#417. To: Original_Intent (#416)

In fact Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth boasts somewhere in the vicinity of 1,200 members who do not believe Dr. Eagar's unsupported pronouncements.

Your hotlink to Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth needs to be changed because it references this chit-chat channel. Here is the REAL link: www.ae911truth.org/

Now, you mention all the members as though they are actually credentialed ... how do you know.... are you the president or some lofty member that scrutinizes the background of a login poster?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   22:14:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#418. To: buckeroo (#408) (Edited)

Clearly the BLDGS buckled under the weight of the upper floors.

Really? Where's the buckling in the above image buck? There is total, complete, symmetric, and sudden collapse, as if there WERE nothing between the bottom red line and the falling upper structure.

It's like the internal core columns and external columns magically disappeared, all at once.

Not just the floors that were damaged suffered total and sudden collapse, as if they weren't there at all, but the section of the upper tower between the two red lines appears to disappear and collapse as well, resulting in a black puff of smoke. Now that I look at it closer, apparent the uppermost floor suffer the same fate.

Buckling my ass.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   22:15:09 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#419. To: AGAviator (#407)

However there were not any such problems with satellite phone calls from the aircraft, which a number of receivers classifed as "cell phone" calls.

And which flights actually had airphones onboard?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   22:16:17 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#420. To: buckeroo (#400)

I guess you don't know how gypsum wall board is easily crushed; tons of gypsum was pulverized that day due to mammoth heat and pressures exerted.

Ah, that's why the towers fell, they were just made of gypsum board, no steel, no concrete, just gypsum. Oh thanks buck, maybe that explains the following collapse video...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   22:19:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#421. To: FormerLurker (#418)

Buckling my ass.

Oh it fell down all by itself? Or with an explosive charge? Yet, at precisely where the plane struck, the building BUCKLED..... of course your ass wasn't there that day to buckle it. We know, because it is self evident that you are here today.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   22:36:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#422. To: Original_Indent, buckeroo, turtle (#416) (Edited)

"Some reports," Eagar wrote, "suggest that the aluminum from the aircraft ignited, creating very high temperatures. While it is possible to ignite aluminum under special conditions, such conditions are not commonly attained in a hydrocarbon-based diffuse flame. In addition, the flame would be white hot, like a giant sparkler. There was no evidence of such aluminum ignition, which would have been visible even through the dense soot."

Well, Mr. Eagar, what are we seeing here?

End of Article

We are seeing melted aluminum, which becomes liquid around 500 Degrees Centigrade. Aluminum furthermore has distinct color ranges associated with distinct temperature ranges.

We are not seeing burning aluminum, which combusts at thousands of degrees Centigrade, or melted steel which also requires substantially over a thousand degrees Centigrade.

Christopher Bollyn in his zeal to try to one up Dr. Eagar, fails to distinguish between a melting substance and a burning one. There is nothing inconsistent in Eagar's account with the photos of melted metal coming around the 81st floors.

Bollyn as usual for CT'ers is an ignorant rube trying to score rhetorical points instead of researching facts.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   22:42:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#423. To: buckeroo (#421)

Yet, at precisely where the plane struck, the building BUCKLED.....

Explain why all four corners of the damaged section decided to give way simultaneously, along with the internal core, and the external vertical columns.

Explain why the floors directly inbetween the roof and the damaged floors ALSO simultaneously failed in all quadrants, and why the upper floors nearest the roof ALSO failed in all quadrants.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   22:45:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#424. To: AGAviator (#422)

We are seeing melted aluminum, which becomes liquid around 500 Degrees Centigrade.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   22:55:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#425. To: AGAviator (#422)


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   22:58:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#426. To: FormerLurker (#423)

Explain why all four corners of the damaged section decided to give way simultaneously, along with the internal core, and the external vertical columns.

Comparatively the inner core of the building held up the entire structure not the outer paper thin skeleton.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   22:59:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#427. To: buckeroo (#400)

Oh crap, Buck, you were four huuuunnnnnnnneeeeerrrrrrrrttttt too.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   23:03:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#428. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#424) (Edited)

Molten metal found at the bottom of the debris piles, after several weeks of spraying water onto heated iron, producing an exothermic reaction known in the 1800's, does not count.

The discussion is supposed to be about molten metal pre collapse coming from the vicinity of the 80th floor.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   23:06:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#429. To: buckeroo (#408)

Er, that doesn't exlain how thermite residue found it's way into the debris.

Why would the lower floors buckle under the weight that they had been made to carry? Unless, of course, the 24 steal columns were severed, allowing the weight to cause collapse.

Here's your link, although you won't read it:

www.bentham- open.org/pages/content.php? TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM

The Open Chemical Physics Journal Volume 2 ISSN: 1874-4125

Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe pp.7-31 (25) Authors: Niels H. Harrit, Jeffrey Farrer, Steven E. Jones, Kevin R. Ryan, Frank M. Legge, Daniel Farnsworth, Gregg Roberts, James R. Gourley, Bradley R. Larsen doi: 10.2174/1874412500902010007

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   23:10:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#430. To: buckeroo (#426) (Edited)

Comparatively the inner core of the building held up the entire structure not the outer paper thin skeleton.

Yet there WERE external columns across all 4 walls, yet they seemingly disappear all at the same instant in time, on at least 3 different floors, the top floors, the floors between the top and the damaged section, and the damaged section itself.

Two of those floors weren't even damaged. How did they all disappear at once I wonder, along with total immediate failure of the inner multi-column core in 3 different locations, all at the same time...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   23:39:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#431. To: AGAviator (#377)

(7) Flight 77 impacted a recently-renovated portion of the Pentagon which was not fully occupied and still had construction equipment in place


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   23:40:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#432. To: AGAviator, wudidiz, FormerLurker, IRTorqued, Critter, abraxas, all (#422)

Christopher Bollyn in his zeal to try to one up Dr. Eagar, fails to distinguish between a melting substance and a burning one. There is nothing inconsistent in Eagar's account with the photos of melted metal coming around the 81st floors.

There absolutely is - the color is wrong for aluminum and right for steel. Molten aluminum is silver not red orange. And you and Eagar can pound the table all day long and it does not change that FACT. It is dishonest to say so and a Professor of "Materials Science" knows better. For a detailed analysis read: www.journalof911studies.c...ngsCompletelyCollapse.pdf

While I cannot cite conclusive evidence - thermite/thermate melts steel. Nanothermites painted over a section of steel would be perfectly capable of turning it into a molten state. Hydrocarbon fires do not generate sufficient heat to melt steel. Neither do office fires which are mostly Class Alpha - wood and paper (although synthetic carpet would be made from petrochemicals and thus would be Class Bravo). Regardless the two types of fuel posited are jet fuel and wood/paper do not get hot enough to melt either. Particularly in an oxygen starved fire as evidenced by the heavy black soot.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-20   0:30:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#433. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, all (#428)

The discussion is supposed to be about molten metal pre collapse coming from the vicinity of the 80th floor.

Yawn. Steel is not iron. It is an alloy of iron and other metals.

As well your red herring does not explain how, 8 weeks after 911, the steel was still hot enough to generate your red herring.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-20   0:39:26 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#434. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#432) (Edited)

Debunking Molten Steel Myth

One of the pieces of evidence Jones points to is a snapshot of the flow falling down the side the building. This pyrotechnic show seems ominous, that is until you look at it closely...

Note the color of the substance as it cools and solidifies toward the end of its journey. Molten steel would turn almost black. One thing it's not, and that's black.

Jones writes: "This is a point worth emphasizing: aluminum has low emissivity and high reflectivity, so that in daylight conditions molten aluminum will appear silvery-gray"

I think at a cooler temperature, he's right.

What's telling about this photo isn't that it's proof of the substance being aluminum, It's that it's a zoom and crop of the photo from Jones own paper.

(Time for him to change yet another one of his photos.) Below is a screenshot from National Geographic's "Inside 911".

The droplets on the outside of the center of the fall seem to be the color of aluminum siding to me.. As I said, the evidence points to it being aluminum.

Below is a message from Stephen D. Chastain of Metal Talk.

Several times over the last year I have been asked to comment on a photo of one of the Trade Center Towers. The photo shows a molten flow

from one of the windows. The flow falls down along the building. It appears orange and turns to a gray color as it cools.

The questions usually want me to address "Is this photo a fake?" and "Is the flow steel or aluminum?" "Is this situation possible?"

First, I will address the temperature range, then the color of the flow.

I am working in imperial units and temperature in degrees F [To convert to C use this link]

Metals lose about 50% of their strength at 60% of their melting temperature. This is common knowledge and may be found in any undergraduate text regarding "Fracture and Deformation of Materials."

If the approximate melting temperature of steel is 2750 F the the material would be plastic at 1650 F. Even assuming a safety factor of 3, you would expect the bolts or other structural members to deform and fail near this temperature, especially with the additional weight if a jet air liner.

I would assume that the live load calculations did not include the typical office equipment and an airliner plus a factor of 3. THEREFORE I assume that the flow is not steel and that the temperature of the steel members at the time of the photo is less than 1650 F.

Assuming that the flow would be molten aluminum from the airliner and the color of molten aluminum is silver then why is the flow orange?

The color of pure molten aluminum is silver, It has an emissivity of .12. Steel has an emissivity of .4 and appears orange in the temperature range of molten aluminum.

The emissivity of aluminum oxide is .44 and also appears orange in the melting temperature range of molten aluminum.

The emissivity of plate glass is .937 It begins to soften at 1000 F and flows around 1350 F. Silica has an emissivity of .8

Copper oxide also has an emissivity of .8. however I will assume that their effect is negligible.

Aluminum oxidizes readily in the foundry under ideal melting conditions. Large surface area relative to thickness, turbulence, the presence of water or oil greatly increases the oxidation of aluminum. A jet airliner is made of thin aluminum sheet and most probably suffered considerable oxidation especially in contact with an open flame and being in contact with jet fuel. If you don't believe this, try melting a few soda cans over coals or open flame. If you are lucky you will end up with only 50% aluminum oxide. However, the cans may completely burn up.

The specific gravity of aluminum is 2.7. The specific gravity of aluminum oxide (Al2O3-3H2O) is 2.42 the specific gravity of Si = 2.40 and Glass is 2.65 these are all very similar and likely to be entrained in a molten aluminum flow. Don't believe it? lightly stir the dross into molten aluminum. The surface tension is so high is is almost impossible to separate them.

THEREFORE assuming that the flow consist of molten aluminum and considerable oxides, and assuming that the windows in the trade center were plate glass and also in a plastic state and that they were also likely entrained in the molten aluminum. I would expect the flow to appear to be orange in color. Especially since both the entrained materials have emissivities equal to or more than twice that of iron.

Also since dross cools to a gray color and glass with impurities also turns dark. I would expect that the flow would darken upon cooling.

I would also suggest that not only is the photo possible, but entirely likely.

Summary: The flow is not steel because the structural steel would fail well below the melting temperature. The flow is likely to be a mixture of aluminum, aluminum oxides, molten glass and coals of whatever trash the aluminum flowed over as it reached the open window. Such a flow would appear orange and cool to a dark color.

Stephen D. Chastain The color means nothing. The color can be misleading, and because it can be misleading, it means nothing as evidence.

This is not aluminum in a foundry which hasn't mixed with anything. This is a cocktail of whatever was on the plane and in the towers which happens to come together. It wouldn't be unreasonable to suspect Aluminum and some other properties has changed its color.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   1:45:53 ET  (2 images) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#435. To: FormerLurker (#431)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   1:49:20 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#436. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle (#433)

Steel is not iron. It is an alloy of iron and other metals.

As well your red herring does not explain how, 8 weeks after 911, the steel was still hot enough

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   1:55:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#437. To: AGAviator, *9-11*, Original_Intent, FormerLurker, abraxas, James Deffenbach, all (#436) (Edited)

Never in a million years will you win this argument. (Only 14 seconds)

9/11 firefighters recall the molten steel at the WTC


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-20   2:07:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#438. To: All, *9-11* (#437) (Edited)

Exhibit "B" (Only 11 seconds)

A firefighter describes the heat under the rubble of Ground Zero, which is sufficient to melt boots.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-20   2:08:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#439. To: All, *9-11*, *4um PSY-OP Club* (#438) (Edited)

Red hot pools of molten steel (Only 35 seconds long)

WTC workers describe pools of molten steel at Ground Zero


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-20   2:10:06 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#440. To: AGAviator (#434)

Stephen D. Chastain The color means nothing. The color can be misleading, and because it can be misleading, it means nothing as evidence.

Stephen D. Chastain is a nobody who is attempting to sell his wares............lol. Here he is denying the light specttrum that far greater minds have held firm to for centuries.

Yeah, Stephen D. Chastain is YOUR man.........hahahahahahahahaha

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-20   2:11:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#441. To: wudidiz, buckeroo (#439) (Edited)

Red hot pools of molten steel

Not shown to be steel, which melts at over 1600 degrees C, and not shown to be melted - all that's visible is gray smoke coming from a solid trash pile.

From the video

"See that stuff he's pulling out?

Red hot"

Not "melted," "red hot."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   2:13:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#442. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#440)

Here he is denying the light specttrum that far greater minds have held firm to for centuries.

Light spectra do not have same properties for ad hoc mixtures of various substances as they do for pure elements.

The WTC crash sites were places where many different kinds of substances were mixed together and burned. They cannot be expected to conform to rules and spectra charts made for individual highly purified elements.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   2:18:13 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#443. To: AGAviator (#434)

It appears

I would assume

THEREFORE I assume

I would expect

I would also suggest

Assuming that

THEREFORE assuming

I would expect

How many times does this Stephen D. Chastain need to repeat, "I assume" before you catch on to the fact that he's making an ASS out of YOU and any other warm body who is willing to waste time listening to him?

OMG, this is the "expert" you are banking your debunking upon.......lol. Hahahahahahahaha........you're frickin' killin' me.

Oh yeah, he asumes and expects.......what a find you have in this guys contribution to the color spectrum of various metals burning.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-20   2:22:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#444. To: AGAviator (#442)

Just read the frick'n analysis from YOUR GOLDEN BOY AND EXPERT DEBUNKER.

lol........my side is hurtin' from laughing at you.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-20   2:24:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#445. To: AGAviator (#442) (Edited)

The WTC crash sites were places where many different kinds of substances were mixed together and burned. They cannot be expected to conform to rules and spectra charts made for individual highly purified elements.

This dupe can't produce anything greater than assumption and spectulation. You go on and trust him as to WHAT IS BURNING for three weeks as moleten metal in the 911 debris........as for me, I will seek more intelligent ground.

The villiage idiot will concede that office chairs and dry wall don't burn for three frickin' weeks.

Hello, dimwit, ALL ELEMENTS CONFORM TO THE RULES OF THE SPECRA........there are NO exceptions, not even your "highly purified elements" whatever the fuck you are claiming these "elements" to be...........lol

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-20   2:39:20 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#446. To: abraxas (#445)

And now we stop for our 2 minutes hate.....


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-20   3:05:57 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#447. To: wudidiz (#446)

Egads, Wud, you're sending me bad dreams.......lol

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-20   3:08:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#448. To: abraxas (#447)

Just seeing if you're still awake.

Are we havin fun yet?


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-20   3:08:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#449. To: wudidiz (#448)

I'm off to dreamland dear........big day tomorrow.

I think awake but distracted would be correct.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-20   3:11:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#450. To: FormerLurker (#431) (Edited)

Glad you posted that so that some of the folks who think Hani Hanjour actually did what they claimed he did will know that he could NOT have done it. They get quiet when you mention that he allegedly took control somewhere in the skies over Ohio and then flew it back to the Pentagon like a stunt pilot. But at the time the plane was hijacked, even if the weather had been perfect and not a cloud in the sky, he would not have had any idea where he was over the landscape. It all looks pretty much the same from heights greater than the top of Mt. Everest. And it is certain that a man who couldn't fly a Cessna could not fly what they claimed hit the Pentagon.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-20   8:11:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#451. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#443)

what a find you have in this guys contribution to the color spectrum of various metals burning.

Unlike Tw00fsters, Chastain does not make blanket statements about trash piles glowing orange being melted steel.

He gets his facts first, and puts his conclusions last, which is the way it should be.

First of all steel and other metals give precisely measured wave lengths. Not just a particular color, but a particular wave length of a particular color. This was not done. Nor were additional wave lengths of particular colors noted.

Also the chemical components were not analyzed. A pile of trash burning orange does not equal pure steel melting and giving off orange.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   11:10:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#452. To: James Deffenbach, buckeroo (#450)

And it is certain that a man who couldn't fly a Cessna could not fly what they claimed hit the Pentagon.

The most difficult parts of pilot tests are takoffs and landings.

Hanjour didn't have to do either when he took over an aircraft already airborne and intended to be crashed, not landed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   11:13:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#453. To: AGAviator (#451)

He gets his facts first, and puts his conclusions last, which is the way it should be.

Who can find the facts amid all of his speculating and assuming?

His conclusion is based on his assumptions, not any facts.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-20   11:19:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#454. To: AGAviator, abraxas, James Deffenbach, buckeroo (#452)

The most difficult parts of pilot tests are takoffs and landings.

Take-offs and landings in a Cessna are relatively easy, with the take-off being such that just about ANYONE could do it. Flying is the relatively easy part. Hanjour couldn't do any of the above even in a Cessna, never mind a heavy multi-engine airliner with all of the complex systems that need to be set correctly.

We are supposed to believe however that he brought the plane down from 35,000 feet to treetop level at 400+ mph, then performed a manuever not any professional pilot could pulloff, and that is to descend to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph (which is basically performing a landing), defying the laws of aerodynamics (in terms of ground effect), flying straight and level directly into the Pentagon wall.

Yeah right.

Hanjour didn't have to do either when he took over an aircraft already airborne and intended to be crashed, not landed.

Besides LANDING the aircraft short of having his wheels down, AT 530 MPH (which the aircraft basically CAN'T DO), he navigated the plane from Ohio without any navigational aids in terms of ground references, so we must assume he was familiar with IFR (instrument flight rules) procedures using sophisticated flight systems and instruments, where he couldn't even fly a Cessna VFR, (visual flight rules).


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   11:46:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#455. To: FormerLurker (#454)

Besides LANDING the aircraft short of having his wheels down, AT 530 MPH (which the aircraft basically CAN'T DO), he navigated the plane from Ohio without any navigational aids in terms of ground references, so we must assume he was familiar with IFR (instrument flight rules) procedures using sophisticated flight systems and instruments, where he couldn't even fly a Cessna VFR, (visual flight rules).

And when did this amazing transformation happen and what could have caused it? Playing around and getting drunk in nudie bars? Did that transform him into an ace pilot?

I see aggravator is still "catapulting the propaganda." Must have taken some training in Dubya's school for liars.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-20   12:20:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#456. To: James Deffenbach (#455)

And when did this amazing transformation happen and what could have caused it? Playing around and getting drunk in nudie bars? Did that transform him into an ace pilot?

Maybe he read about it in a book that he found on eBay called, "how to fly an airliner better than a pro".


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   12:33:30 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#457. To: FormerLurker (#456)

Reckon he got the last copy? I would like to get one of those. Learn how to fly my big plane 500 mph 20 feet over my Pentalawn and not scuff it up. Yeah, that's the ticket! If you find that any of those are still available let me know.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-20   12:40:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#458. To: James Deffenbach (#457)

If you find that any of those are still available let me know.

You could put it on a wish list on eBay or Amazon... LOL


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   12:46:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#459. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#454) (Edited)

Once again, you mindlessly parrot bull$hit from ko00ksites, try to pass it off as truth, and call anybody who disagrees with your $hitpile a liar and a government agent.

Hanjour actually got a commercial pilot license in 1999 but was unable to get a job. However in 2001 he was showing problems. At the same time he was taking advanced simulator training, so he knew his way around the school enough to put in a spotty performance.

Again, takeoffs and landings are by far the most difficult parts of flight trainings.

Because Hanjour was not interested in takeoffs and landings he did not have to do well on those most difficult parts of the schooling.

Furthermore the Pentagon crash itself shows an inexperirenced pilot. The wings were rocking on the final approach, and he went in to the back of the building because the plane got away from him when he tried to hit the Potomac-facing north face of the building which was where the high value target offices including Rumsfeld's were.

The Pentagon hit had little or no destructive value as far as harming the US interests.

Haji Hanjour

Hanjour gained his FAA commercial pilot certificate in April 1999,
but was unable to get a job as a pilot after he returned to his native Saudi Arabia, and told his family he was heading to the United Arab Emirates to find work. He took an international flight out of New York on April 28, but it is not known where he went. Within two weeks however, bank withdrawals were again made in Arizona, indicating he had returned.

...

However, in January 2001, Arizona JetTech flight school managers reported him to the FAA at least five times because his English was inadequate for the commercial pilot’s certificate he had already obtained. It took him five hours to complete an oral exam meant to last just two hours, said Peggy Chevrette.

Hanjour failed UA English classes with a 0.26 GPA and a JetTech manager said “He could not fly at all.” His FAA certificate had become invalid late in 1999 when he failed to take a mandatory medical examination.

In February, Hanjour began advanced simulator training in Mesa Arizona

Hanjour continued with simulator training because that was where he could practice flying an airplane already airborne and crashing it into a target on a preplanned route, and not have to bother with the other parts of flying including speaking English he could not care less about.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   12:49:06 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#460. To: FormerLurker (#458)

That would be funny, wouldn't it? How would you word it? Something like "I want a copy of the book that turned an idiot who couldn't fly a Cessna into an ace pilot who could fly heavy commercial airliners in one easy lesson. This while getting wasted in a nudie bar. Will pay top dollar." What you reckon?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-20   12:53:04 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#461. To: AGAviator (#459)

Because Hanjour was not interested in takeoffs and landings he did not have to do well on those most difficult parts of the schooling.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

He LANDED a 757 on the Pentagon lawn at 530 mph, short of putting down his wheels, and FLEW IT STRAIGHT INTO THE WALL. Of course such a feat is virtually IMPOSSIBLE, yet he supposedly did it anyways.

What don't you understand here?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   12:56:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#462. To: AGAviator, James Deffenbach (#459)

Hanjour gained his FAA commercial pilot certificate in April 1999,

From the New York Times

Ultimately, administrators at the school told Mr. Hanjour that he would not qualify for the advanced certificate. But the ex-employee said Mr. Hanjour continued to pay to train on a simulator for Boeing 737 jets. "He didn't care about the fact that he couldn't get through the course," the ex-employee said.

Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot. "I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon," the former employee said. He could not fly at all."


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   13:07:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#463. To: AGAviator (#459)

Furthermore the Pentagon crash itself shows an inexperirenced pilot. The wings were rocking on the final approach, and he went in to the back of the building because the plane got away from him when he tried to hit the Potomac-facing north face of the building which was where the high value target offices including Rumsfeld's were.

Bullshit. He was heading straight for the side of the Pentagon containing high ranking officers' offices, including Rumsfeld's office, THEN banked at 400 mph and turned the plane towards the other side of the Pentagon, while descending, then leveled off and headed for the Pentagon at treetop level for about a mile at 400+ mph, accelerating to 530 mph till impact.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   13:11:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#464. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#454)

Besides LANDING the aircraft short of having his wheels down, AT 530 MPH (which the aircraft basically CAN'T DO), he navigated the plane from Ohio without any navigational aids in terms of ground references, so we must assume he was familiar with IFR (instrument flight rules) procedures using sophisticated flight systems and instruments, where he couldn't even fly a Cessna VFR, (visual flight rules).

Ohio? Why are you bringing up FLT77 on this thread? Don't you remember your "cabin door" thread of FLT77? American Airlines Flight 77 is the plane that is commonly believed to have crashed into the Pentagon. It was a Boeing 757-223 on a scheduled flight from Dulles to Los Angeles, with 58 passengers, four flight attendants, and two pilots.

At 8:20 AM, Flight 77 took off from Dulles International Airport, 10 minutes after its scheduled departure time. At 8:46, Flight 77 veered severely off course. At 8:50, the last radio communication was made from the pilots and air traffic control. At 8:56, the jet's transponder was shut off. 1 The pilots' last transmission was "ah direct FALMOUTH American seventy seven thanks." No radio communications from the flight indicated distress. 2 The NTSB report on Flight 77 describes the plane's maneuvers in detail. It began to turn to the south at 8:55, and by 9:00 it was headed east. Shortly thereafter it began to descend from its altitude of 35,000 feet. The autopilot was engaged and disengaged multiple times. At 9:29 the plane was 35 miles west of the Pentagon flying at 7,000 feet. At 9:34 it was about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon and started a 330-degree descending right turn, bringing it to an altitude of about 2000 feet four miles southwest of the Pentagon

Official NTSB FLT path of FLT77/analysis

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-20   13:17:08 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#465. To: buckeroo (#464)

Why are you bringing up FLT77 on this thread?

Your pal AGovShill posted about it, bitch at him.

The autopilot was engaged and disengaged multiple times

Are you aware of the fact you have to PROGRAM the flight computer for the autopilot to know where to go? Are you aware of the fact YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHERE YOU ARE FIRST in order to do that?

Are you aware of the fact it's practically IMPOSSIBLE to land a 757 at 530 mph, yet this "pilot" who couldn't fly AT ALL according to his instructors was able to pull it off ON THE PENTAGON LAWN, without so much as disturbing a blade of grass, then impacting the Pentagon wall straight on?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   13:22:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#466. To: FormerLurker (#461) (Edited)

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

He LANDED a 757 on the Pentagon lawn at 530 mph, short of putting down his wheels, and FLEW IT STRAIGHT INTO THE WALL. Of course such a feat is virtually IMPOSSIBLE, yet he supposedly did it anyways.

What don't you understand here?

LOL! He couldn't take off and land BUT he could actually navigate a 757 from somewhere over the skies of Ohio (at a high altitude, so high that everything on the ground, assuming he could even see the ground, all looked pretty much the same) back to DC, do tricks with it that most professionals couldn't do, 20 feet off the ground in excess of 500 mph. I wonder about how many bowls of Stupid-O's Aggravator and buck would eat in a week.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-20   13:24:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#467. To: FormerLurker (#385)

6 seconds to break and smash every supporting piece of the structure is not enough time to do so.

Actually, there were large fragments (I think extending 20 floors high, I will check) of the central structure immediately after the collapse.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-20   13:26:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#468. To: buckeroo (#464)

Ohio?

Yes, Ohio. Your image is a graphic from USA Today, not the NTSB. The NTSB produced the following image depicting the flight path.

Here's the full NTSB report in PDF format.

Flight Path Study-American Airlines Flight 77 [PDF]

Besides, does it matter if he crossed from the western edge of West Virginia into Ohio, or simply turned around prior to crossing the border? No, of course it doesn't, he STILL had to navigate the aircraft without any visual cues.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   13:30:45 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#469. To: FormerLurker (#465)

You are trying to take the thread topic (WTC demolition(s)) off topic because you can't get your own story straight .... just like FLT77 was flown from OHIO?

C'mon.... stay on track as opposed to intentionally spinning FACTUALLY incorrect and silly speculative conclusions around?

Where is the raw data to support the demolitions for the WTC? Refute the main article instead of dancing around the subject.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-20   13:31:41 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#470. To: buckeroo (#467)

Actually, there were large fragments (I think extending 20 floors high, I will check) of the central structure immediately after the collapse.

Well excuse me if I wasn't precise enough for you. I should have said "6 seconds to break and smash practically every supporting piece of the structure is not enough time to do so. "


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   13:32:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#471. To: James Deffenbach (#466)

I wonder about how many bowls of Stupid-O's Aggravator and buck would eat in a week.

Enough to cause permanent brain damage apparently...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   13:33:24 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#472. To: buckeroo (#469)

you can't get your own story straight .... just like FLT77 was flown from OHIO?

Hey stupid, stop grabbing graphics from your pals, and perhaps you can find a real one from the NTSB, like I provided to you, which DOES show the flight path to extend into Ohio.

It's been reported in more than a few places that Flight 77 passed over Ohio, try looking things up before you make a bigger ass of yourself.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   13:36:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#473. To: buckeroo (#469)

Where is the raw data to support the demolitions for the WTC?

Where is the raw data that explains how a 757 practically landed (with wheels up, and not touching the ground) on the Pentagon lawn at 530 mph without so much as disturbing a blade of grass and smashed straight into the Pentagon wall.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   13:38:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#474. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#465)

Your pal AGovShill posted about it, bitch at him.

AG only referenced FLT77 @post#251 because it was a single numerated item in the body of his post containing many others documenting the errors of your research. Re-evaluate it for yourself.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-20   13:40:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#475. To: FormerLurker (#472)

It's been reported in more than a few places that Flight 77 passed over Ohio, try looking things up before you make a bigger ass of yourself.

I have read that he supposedly hijacked the plane over the skies of Ohio in more than one source.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-20   13:40:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#476. To: buckeroo (#474)

Go sob to your boyfriend, I really don't care.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   13:42:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#477. To: James Deffenbach (#475)

I have read that he supposedly hijacked the plane over the skies of Ohio in more than one source.

It's a hoot how buck views himself as an expert on all this, tries to claim that I'M the one who's wrong and that I've been sloppy and can't get my facts straight, yet he doesn't even know what's right out there in full view and published in main stream news articles, BESIDES the US government reports.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   13:45:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#478. To: FormerLurker (#473)

You can't stay on topic... you continue to obfuscate the thread into other topics because you can't answer a single question with a simple or complex answer.

buckeroo: Where is the raw data to support the demolitions for the WTC?

FormerLurker: Where is the raw data that explains how a 757 practically landed (with wheels up, and not touching the ground) on the Pentagon lawn at 530 mph without so much as disturbing a blade of grass and smashed straight into the Pentagon wall.

And this thread title is about the demolition theory concerning the WTC.... not FLT77 cabin doors.... you already lost your thread about some "researcher" not knowing his ass from a hole in the ground.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-20   13:46:04 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#479. To: buckeroo (#478)

You can't stay on topic... you continue to obfuscate the thread into other topics because you can't answer a single question with a simple or complex answer.

You ask for information that is unavailable, not because it doesn't exist, but because of the fact that the evidence was destroyed and shipped off the China. I've presented facts that support what I claim, and have already listed them here on this thread.

You have provided NOTHING, you dance, jump up and down, make false claims, and basically make an ass of yourself.

Of COURSE you can't explain how the 757 came down to 20 feet off the lawn at 530 mph, because it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to have happened IF it WERE in fact a 757, ESPECIALLY one flown by an inept individual who "couldn't fly at all".

Physical impossibilities can be explained as possible to those who believe in magical faery tales, which you apparently are quite fond of there Mr. Buckeroo.

I'm surprised you can't think of a good one in regards to the 757.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   13:51:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#480. To: FormerLurker, James Deffenbach, abraxas, IRTorqued, wuddiz, CadetD, christine, Critter, ItIsTooLate, Kamala, all (#455)

I wanted to bring this two part article to everyone's attention. I am sure everyone has noticed that I have stressed over and over again that 911 is best understood as a Psychological Operation or PsyOp for short (despite the Army doing a PR change on their PsyOp department's name).

THE SPLIT-SECOND ERROR...EXPOSING THE WTC BOMB PLOT...

WAG THE WTC II THE BLOCKBUSTER - PART II OF EXPOSING THE WTC BOMB PLOT

As an aside - FL I believe you know how to post full files of Web Pages, a skill I haven't learned and which even Neil couldn't tell me how to do, so if you can could you post this article as its own thread? Please. ;-)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-20   13:54:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#481. To: Original_Intent (#480)

As an aside - FL I believe you know how to post full files of Web Pages, a skill I haven't learned and which even Neil couldn't tell me how to do, so if you can could you post this article as its own thread? Please. ;-)

I was just about to run some errands, but I'll see what I can do later on today...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   13:57:24 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#482. To: christine, Pinguinite (#480)

christine - just a thought and I don't know if Neil can do it, but if I recall correctly Liberty Forum's software had a check box and a space to put in the URL which allowed you to upload an entire article file from your desktop. I don't know how much work it would be, or if it can even be done with Neil's package, but it would certainly add a useful function to the forum to be able to do that and preserve all the links and photos without having to copy each one.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-20   13:59:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#483. To: FormerLurker (#481)

Coolness - thank you.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-20   13:59:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#484. To: FormerLurker (#479)

You ask for information that is unavailable, not because it doesn't exist, but because of the fact that the evidence was destroyed and shipped off the China. I've presented facts that support what I claim, and have already listed them here on this thread.

OK .... that Chinese connection adds to your conspiracy theory .... still where are the folks planning, planting, financing, scheduling and ensuring that no one saw them? Were they shipped off to China, too?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-20   14:00:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#485. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#461) (Edited)

He LANDED a 757 on the Pentagon lawn at 530 mph, short of putting down his wheels, and FLEW IT STRAIGHT INTO THE WALL. Of course such a feat is virtually IMPOSSIBLE, yet he supposedly did it anyways.

He didn't fly it straight into the wall.

(1) He hit the wall at an oblique angle which caused the aircraft to not achieve the maximum penatation of a 90 degree impact.

(2) He didn't land on the lawn. As I've repeatedly said ground effect makes an air cushion supporting nap of the earth lift the closer the fuselage and wings get to the ground.

(3) The wings were oscillating right up to final impact, clipping poles and brushing aside construction equipment, and ingesting a part of a luminary into the engine. This is not an under control approach or crash.

(4) The entire secion hit did minimum damage to American interests. The hit was not in a place doing any substantial damage to the US. This is because he was trying to salvage a hit on the building at all instead of hitting a high value section.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   14:09:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#486. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, James Deffenbach wudidiz, all (#462)

But the ex-employee said Mr. Hanjour continued to pay to train on a simulator for Boeing 737 jets.

..."I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon," the former employee said. He could not fly at all."

That jumped out at me. A 737? Not a 757 or 767 which even a professional 737 pilot would not fly without a lot of hours in the simulator and a checkout flight or three?

Another significant datum as the cockpits on all 3 are different. If he couldn't fly a 737 he sure as hell could not fly a totally different airliner that was significantly larger.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-20   14:09:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#487. To: Original_Intent (#480)

The Split-second Error: Exposing the WTC Bomb PlotThis more or less what you wanted?

The original of this page used to be at http://www.eionews.addr.com/psyops/plot_within_a_plot_part1.htm. But that page, and all other material on that site concerned with the WTC demolition, disappeared about 2001-10-21 without explanation. Consequently links in this page to that site, including links to all enlargements, except for Photos 6 and 9 and the photo of the hole in the North Tower, no longer work and have been disabled. The PDF version is viewable.


PART I
 
PART II
 
The Split Second Error
 

  


PDF Version HERE


THE SPLIT-SECOND ERROR
...EXPOSING THE WTC BOMB PLOT...

by Fintan Dunne,
coEditor, PsyOpNews.com
Research Kathy McMahon
18 September 2001
="

" href="mailto:%20news@psyopnews.com">mailto:%20news@psyopnews.com


VIDEO Windows Mpeg
THE HIJACK PILOT'S
SPLIT SECOND ERROR

14 mins @ 56K








"IT WAS DESIGNED
FOR A PLANE IMPACT"

Aaron Swirski, one of the architects of the World Trade Center, talks exclusively to Jerusalem Post Radio on the World Trade Center collapse. He says they designed the towers to withstand something like a plane flying into the side.
For interview, Media Player
JpRadio item ...Now working.


12th September, 2001

EXPLOSIVES EXPERT SAYS
WTC WAS BOMBED
Towers collapse "too methodical"

CHARGES PLANTED
TO TAKE
DOWN BUILDING



Van Romero, vice president for research at New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology says the collapse of the twin towers resembled those of controlled implosions used in planned demolition.

"My opinion is, based on the videotapes, that after the airplanes hit the World Trade Center there were some explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the towers to collapse," Romero said.

A demolition expert, Romero is a former director of the Energetic Materials Research and Testing Center at Tech, which studies explosive materials and the effects of explosions on buildings, aircraft and other structures.

He said he and Denny Peterson, vice president for administration and finance, were en route to an office building near the Pentagon to discuss defense-funded research programs at Tech. Romero told the Albequerque Journal that he based his opinion on video aired on national television broadcasts.

The detonations could have been caused by a small amount of explosive put in more than two points in each of the towers, he said. "It could have been a relatively small amount of explosives placed in strategic points," Romero said.

BUILDING COLLAPSE SHOCKS
WORLD TRADE CENTER
ENGINEER, ARCHITECT


"I DESIGNED IT FOR A 707 HIT"
DETROIT, Sept. 11 (UPI) -- Lee Robertson, the project's structural engineer, addressed the problem of terrorism on high-rises at a conference in Frankfurt, Germany, LAST WEEK (!!!), Chicago engineer Joseph Burns told the Chicago Tribune. Burns said Robertson told the conference, "I designed it for a (Boeing)707 to hit it."
UPI REPORT

DETROIT, Sept. 11 (UPI) -- A lead engineer who worked on New York's World Trade Center Towers expressed shock Tuesday that the 110-story lanmarks in Lower Manhattan collapsed after each tower was struck by a hijacked passenger jetliner.

The determined man at the controls of Flight 175 was now less than one minute from his own demise, and was in that state of heightened alertness that only approaching death can generate.

Ahead, as he hurtled across New York towards Manhattan Island, he could see the vast plume of smoke (1). His colleague in Flight 11, approaching from the opposite direction had already made an almost perfect impact on the North Tower of the World Trade Center.

On the far side of the tower, concealed from his view, was the gash (2) where the hijacked airliner had spread its fuel payload over several floors of the building. Just as the trainers had coached.

But the sight still managed to unnerve him. It was one thing practicing the approach for countless hours on a computer simulator, but this was real life -and no mistake could be made. The planners had insisted that the planes must strike the towers at a banked angle. Otherwise the fire would be confined to only a couple of floors and would not set the building comprehensively alight. Without perfect execution, the imperialists would only suffer minor casualties, he had been told.

What they never told him was that the aircraft impacts were only one half of the plan. One visible and psychologically terrorizing aspect would be provided by the suicidal aircraft. But the other half of the plan was unknown to the two pilots and their accomplices. Bombs had already been planted inside both towers.

They would be detonated after the planes had struck, to ensure the total destruction of the buildings and their evidentiary contents. The bombs inside the towers were strapped to radio-trigger detonators. Other plotters would be near the scene -monitoring TV coverage to determine the right moment to push the final buttons. The full PsyOps (psychological-warfare) effect would be the complete disappearance of these two symbols of US confidence and power.

But if the plane struck at the wrong angle, or even worse -missed altogether, the whole scheme was in danger. Substantial fires were necessary as a cover for the subsequent collapse.

The planners had taken every precaution. Their flight approach paths were calculated to align the two towers as a single target -without a gap between them. His orders were clear. His target was the South Tower, but if the first plane struck the wrong tower, he was to switch to the other. In either event, he must strike at the remaining target with a military precision.

But he didn't. And that's where things began to go wrong.

BANKING ON SUCCESS

A straightforward level approach would have been so much easier. Just line up the towers in the cockpit window and plow straight in. This banked approach was much harder to accomplish. Imagine swinging a stone on the end of a string, aiming to strike a standing beer bottle. Imagine getting only one try. A fully laden 767 is like an elephant with wings -the apotheosis of maneuverability.

Now, the pilot was now less than two miles from his target. The screaming noise of the engines on high power were already causing heads to turn among the early morning crowds below. But they didn't really understand what was happening. One eyewitness would later recount that the first plane had tried to to veer off the tower, but hit it nevertheless. That witness had mistaken the intent of the final course correction.

For no matter how well executed the approach, it would be necessary to make one last seconds adjustment to get right on target. In the final five seconds, the tower would still be half a mile away. That's when the collective million hours of preparation would telescope into seconds and determine the success or failure of the mission.

Photo 3


Photo 4


Photo 5


Photo 6

And it wasn't going well. As the tower rushed to fill the view in the cockpit window (3), the pilot realized that he was going too fast and wide of the target to boot. He would miss to the right. Instead of a minor tilt of the controls, he would have to lean the aircraft hard left -NOW! (4)

As the airliner tilted acutely to the left (5), the air under the wings began to leak away -depriving the craft of vital lift, even as the extra centrifugal force generated by the turn meant that he needed more lift -not less. The maneuver was only partly successful. Despite the course correction, the plane still drifted to the right.

In that last instant (6), he never really had time to consider his own death. The training and his death-moment concentration focussed him so intently on the task. With a grinding crash the side of the building gave way, as Flight 175 struck near the corner of the tower -too far to the right (7).

The howl of metal and concrete impacting each other was overlaid with the crack of plate glass shattering. The concrete floors of the building cut through the plane like a egg passed through an egg slicer. The metal in its wings offered little resistance. In an instant, the plane had disappeared into the tower like a bird returning to its nest.

But it was no longer an aircraft. It's separated parts careered across the floors of the South Tower. It was no longer obeying the laws of aerodynamics. It was subject to the dictates of the angular momentum caused by the banked approach -and that last moment course correction.

That's when things began to go even more wrong for the cynical perpetrators of the mass death that was now being inflicted on those in the shattered airliner's path.



Photo 8


Photo 9

THE ARC OF FAILURE

Earlier, the North Tower impact site had been right in the center of the tower (2). The entire fuel load and flotsam was dumped deep inside and remained in the building -where it exploded (8)(fig 1 below).

But now as Flight 175 disappeared inside the South Tower, it burst like a paper bag full of water. The thousands of pounds of jet fuel were liberated to follow a path dictated by the momentum of what had once been an aircraft.

A wash of jet fuel and airplane parts tore through the interior of the building at hundreds of miles an hour; sweeping everything before it and just starting to ignite as it rushed along. But it didn't take the same course as had aircraft debris inside the North Tower, eighteen minutes before. By contrast, the majority of the fuel and debris from the second plane smashed out of the building and exploded OUTSIDE in the open air over the street (9)(fig 2 below).

The plane's approach was an arc of a great circle -one that had tightened even further with that final twitch on the controls. Imagine again a paper bag of water spun on the end of a string. If the paper bag bursts, the water inside will head off at a tangent to the original arc.


FIGURE 1


FIGURE 2


In the same fashion, the fuel now tried to take a course to the right of the original flight path. The aircraft had impacted near the corner of the building. Within fractions of a second the already igniting fuel had raced diagonally across the corner to burst out into the open air again, on the adjacent side of the Second Tower. Photos even show a smoking engine which shot out as it had not even been slowed by the building interior (10).

This air explosion provided a stunning pyrotechnic spectacle witnessed by countless millions, but it was an operational disaster. For it left the thorny question of explaining how the South Tower -which took less than half the fuel load of its North Tower twin -was the first of the two to collapse.(See Fig 1&2)


THE WRONG TOWER
FELL FIRST


Even before the second plane hit the South Tower, its northern counterpart was already burning strongly, with a great plume of dense black toxic fumes drifting over a stunned Manhattan. Flight 11 had rocketed deep inside the building before the fuel ignited. On some floors the fire burned across the entire width of the building. By 9:45 a.m. the North Tower was ablaze not just on the floors that took the impact, but all the way to the top of the building (10).

The towers sprinkler fire extinguisher system were bolstered by automatic hermetrically sealing doors on every floor to prevent the spread of fire. But office workers still found themselves stumbling down sometimes darkened and smoke-filled fire escape stairs.

The giant steel beams used to build the towers had been cast in Japan -no American steel milll could roll out the massive 'I' beams. The explanation accepted by the mainstream media pundits for the collapse of both towers is that these beams softened like warm toffee in the intensity of the fires.

If that were the case, then the North Tower was the obvious candidate to be the first to collapse. Not only did it have almost a twenty minute head start on the South Tower conflagration, but the fire extended to the whole area of many floors. The South Tower fire was smaller and more confined, so that by 10:30 a.m. there was an obvious difference visible to those in the streets below and the hypnotized TV cameras now trained on the incredible sight.

But can the collapse in any event be really blamed on the fires within? The great explosions on impact had consumed all the jet fuel in seconds. Now it was plastic fixtures, cabling and internal partitioning that were burning. Or smoldering, to be more precise. Only near the great gaping holes -where there was access to an air supply- did the fire burn with anything like the intensity required to melt great beams of steel.

Neither had the impacts significantly weakened the structural integrity of the buildings. Even under normal circumstances these flexible buildings swayed so much in high winds that seasickness was a noticeable problem among workers on upper floors. Even on floors near the impact sites, many had felt only a mild shudder as the aircraft struck.

For the fire to be the cause of the collapse, most of the array of steel beams that spanned each floor would have to be engulfed in continuous extremely high temperature fire. This did not happen, nor was it essential to the plan. If the real intent had been to collapse the towers by means of fire then the planes would have struck the corners of the towers nearest to each other. That would have increased the chances of one tower collapsing into the other.

What actually happened next -before either tower collapsed, was one or more massive explosions in the other buildings around the towers. Explosions that sent clouds of masonry dust into the air. The first of many blasts that would rock the World Trade Center complex.

The explosions marked the final phase.
The curtain was coming down on the performance.

And the towers themselves would be next to fall.....

PART II
THE BLOCKBUSTER

Copyright reserved 2001 www.psyopnews.com by
Fintan Dunne, Kathy McMahon and PsyOpNews.com
Reproduce freely on noncommercial / alternative media.

 


The World Trade Center Demolition
and the So-Called War on Terrorism
Serendipity Home Page

>

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-20   14:11:13 ET  (17 images) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#488. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, James Deffenbach, IRTorqued, all (#469)

Where is the raw data to support the demolitions for the WTC? Refute the main article instead of dancing around the subject.

25 Rules of Disinformation: How to Fight Back Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the 'play dumb' rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.) In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

16. Vanish evidence and witnesses. If it does not exist, it is not fact, and you won't have to address the issue.

Proper response: There is no suitable response to actual vanished materials or persons, unless you can shed light on the matter, particularly if you can tie the event to a cover up other criminality. However, with respect to dialog where it is used against the discussion, you can respond... 'You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics. The best you can say is that the matter is in contention ONLY because of highly suspicious matters such as the simultaneous and mysterious vanishing of three sets of evidence. The suspicious nature itself tends to support the primary allegation. Why do you refuse to address the remaining issues by use of such disinformation tactics (rule 16 - vanish evidence and witnesses)?'

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-20   14:17:26 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#489. To: Original_Intent (#488)

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

Unfortunately, buck and aggravator ain't playin'.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-20   14:20:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#490. To: Original_Intent (#488)

Read the thread from top to bottom and find ANYWHERE I have attempted to throw this thread off track from the central issue concerning "demolition theory of the WTC."

You would be wise to ensure your pals read the same as just as you, you don't follow your own recommendations.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-20   14:22:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#491. To: buckeroo (#464) (Edited)

he navigated the plane from Ohio without any navigational aids in terms of ground references, so we must assume he was familiar with IFR (instrument flight rules) procedures using sophisticated flight systems and instruments, where he couldn't even fly a Cessna VFR, (visual flight rules).

Here's how stupid and ignorant these Half-Truthers are regarding aircraft procedures, as in ***sophisticated flight systems and instruments.***

One of the most basic flight navigation instruments is VORTAC radio navigation with Distance Measuring Equipment, or DME.

VORTAC

VOR, short for VHF omnidirectional radio range, is a type of radio navigation system for aircraft. A VOR ground station broadcasts a VHF radio composite signal including the station's identifier, voice (if equipped), and navigation signal. The identifier is morse code.
A VORTAC/DME instrument on the cockpit display automatically gives a straight line vector, any angle off deviation, and distance in nautical miles to a transmitter hundreds of miles away.

You know what you have to do to navigate by VORTAC/DME?

Punch in the radio frequency of the VORTAC station you want to navigate to. For example, to Woodside VORTAC, 16 nm south of San Francisco International, 113.90.

That's it.

You can get a vector and distance to station, even if the station is hundreds of miles away, in all of 5 seconds.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   14:23:03 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#492. To: James Deffenbach (#487)

Your links don't work, Obie-wan-Kanobie.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-20   14:24:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#493. To: FormerLurker, buckereoo (#465) (Edited)

Are you aware of the fact it's practically IMPOSSIBLE to land a 757 at 530 mph, yet this "pilot" who couldn't fly AT ALL according to his instructors was able to pull it off ON THE PENTAGON LAWN

Hey Half Truther circlejerk.

Hanjour got a commercial pilot certificate in 1999.

He didn't follow up on it because he didn't care. Not because he was incapable.

He spent all his time just prior to 911 with the simulator. That's because that was all he cared about, because he damn well knew his mission would not involve takeoffs and landings.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   14:27:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#494. To: AGAviator (#491)

Yet these Half-Truthers think it's a big deal.

Come to think of it, maybe for them it is.

Thanks, AG ... with some luck the TWOOFERS will read your post. Alas! They would will probably intend to destroy the thread ... as they can't find any raw, hard and factual data to support the speculative idea that demolitions were intentionally planted by ANYONE!

Maybe it was the TWOOFER_FAERIE!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-20   14:36:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#495. To: James Deffenbach (#489)

LOL!

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-20   14:39:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#496. To: James Deffenbach, Original_Intent (#489)

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

Unfortunately, buck and aggravator ain't playin'.

LOL


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-20   14:44:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#497. To: James Deffenbach, Original_Intent (#487)

I couldn't get it to post the pictures either.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-20   14:45:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#498. To: AGAviator, buckeroo (#493)

Hey Half Truther circlejerk.

No, thanks for the invite, but you and buck will have to ask somebody else to join your club, I'm not interested.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   14:48:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#499. To: James Deffenbach (#489)

Unfortunately, buck and aggravator ain't playin'.

Perhaps the most amusing thing is that they keep trying to assert the world is square while ridiculing anyone who disagrees with their delusions.

Notice that their main game is try to ridicule and disparage ANY data that is in disagreement with the Official Conspiracy Theory™ while asserting:

That they were fanatical Muslim suiciders who drank, prohibited in Islam, and whored, also prohibited in Islam, left a Koran in a Strip Bar, and yet were so fanatically devout they were willing to commit suicide in planes they had never flown and were incompetent to fly.

Pushed the Pentagon plane to, if not beyond, the theoretical limits of the airframe.

And then Osama Ben Forgotten was able to wave his magic cellphone in the air and make three steel framed structures, struck by two airplanes collapse at near freefall speeds into their own footprint.

I bet they also think "Alice in Wonderland" is non-fiction.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-20   14:49:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#500. To: Original_Intent (#499)

FIVE HUUUNNNNNNNEEEEERRRRRTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-20   14:50:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#501. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#479)

I've presented facts that support what I claim, and have already listed them here on this thread.

But your idea of a "fact" is different than mine. Here is my idea of a fact:

fact

/fækt/[fakt]

–noun

1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.
5. Law . Often, facts. an actual or alleged event or circumstance, as distinguished from its legal effect or consequence. Compare question of fact, question of law.

—Idioms

6. after the fact, Law . after the commission of a crime: an accessory after the fact.
7. before the fact, Law . prior to the commission of a crime: an accessory before the fact.
8. in fact, actually; really; indeed: In fact, it was a wonder that anyone survived.

When you use the term "fact" it is because you ran across some BS on the Internet and smeared it all over yourself; fabricated by anyone without expertise demonstrating pseudo-science and associated technical areas ... now, that is a "fact."

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-20   15:01:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#502. To: Original_Intent (#499)

I bet they also think "Alice in Wonderland" is non-fiction.

I wonder which one plays the White Queen?

`When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast. There goes the shawl again!' (said the White Queen to Alice)

Through the Looking Glass, chapter 5

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-20   15:02:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#503. To: wudidiz (#497)

I couldn't get it to post the pictures either.

It looked different in preview than it did when I posted it but I don't remember seeing any pictures.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-20   15:03:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#504. To: James Deffenbach, wudidiz (#503)

I couldn't see any pictures either........I thought it was just me, but I feel better knowing I have some company while imagining the pictures. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-20   15:07:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#505. To: abraxas (#504)

Interesting article anyway. Even without pictures.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-20   15:08:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#506. To: abraxas, James Deffenbach, Original_Intent (#504) (Edited)

The pictures were on the original link OI provided.

www.serendipity.li/wot/psyopnews1.htm


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-20   15:11:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#507. To: wudidiz (#506)

I don't understand why you can't get it all with view page source. That usually works.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-20   15:31:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#508. To: buckeroo (#501)

you ran across some BS on the Internet and smeared it all over yourself; fabricated by anyone without expertise demonstrating pseudo-science and associated technical areas ... now, that is a "fact."

Ta-ha!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   15:39:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#509. To: buckeroo, AGAviator (#501)

you ran across some BS on the Internet and smeared it all over yourself

You two really should keep that stuff in PM, that and/or get yourself a room.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   16:16:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#510. To: AGAviator (#493)

Hanjour got a commercial pilot certificate in 1999.

What part of "HE COULDN'T FLY AT ALL" don't you understand?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   16:18:49 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#511. To: wudidiz (#497)

Well at least the text is there for the shills to avoid. ;-)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-20   16:22:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#512. To: James Deffenbach, abraxas (#505)

Interesting article anyway. Even without pictures.

It helps puts things in perspective by providing a framework in which it makes psychopathic sense. Of course our beloved shills worship psychopaths. It's just so cool to murder millions of people.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-20   16:25:53 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#513. To: FormerLurker (#510)

What part of "HE COULDN'T FLY AT ALL" don't you understand?

It must be the word "couldn't" that is tripping him up. Look at all those letters, such a big word!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-20   16:26:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#514. To: Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, wudidiz (#512)

I too found the article very interesting.......

I went over it again at the link with the pictures.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-20   16:29:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#515. To: buckeroo (#501)

When you use the term "fact" it is because you ran across some BS on the Internet

Name me one thing that I posted which is untrue. You posted that Flight 77 did not fly over Ohio. That was a lie.

In fact, just about EVERYTHING you post is a lie buck.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   16:34:49 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#516. To: AGAviator (#493)

Hanjour got a commercial pilot certificate in 1999.

Provide the following information;

  1. Where did he obtain this license?
  2. What was the name of his instructor, and the name of the flight school?
  3. Where and when did he get his private license?
  4. What was the name of that instructor, and that flight school?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   16:35:46 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#517. To: James Deffenbach (#513)

It must be the word "couldn't" that is tripping him up. Look at all those letters, such a big word!

Maybe it's that funny " ' " character that's throwing him off...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   16:36:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#518. To: FormerLurker (#517)

You know, ol' Badeye had a problem with those too. Think he and the blind one might be related?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-20   16:41:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#519. To: James Deffenbach (#518)

You know, ol' Badeye had a problem with those too. Think he and the blind one might be related?

Probably both inbred from the same lineage...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   16:42:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#520. To: AGAviator (#485)

(1) He hit the wall at an oblique angle which caused the aircraft to not achieve the maximum penatation of a 90 degree impact.

The aircraft flew level, the wings were not banking, and the nose was not up or down. The ANGLE which the aircraft impacted the wall actually caused MORE damage than if it had hit at a 90 degree angle.

(2) He didn't land on the lawn. As I've repeatedly said ground effect makes an air cushion supporting nap of the earth lift the closer the fuselage and wings get to the ground.

Can you repeat that in English? The aircraft didn't PHYSICALLY TOUCH down on the lawn, his wheels weren't down, but IF the wheels were down the aircraft would have landed.

As far as ground effect, it's physically impossible for a large heavy aircraft with relatively low wing-loading, such as a 757, to fly lower than 60 feet off the ground at speeds of 400+ mph. The alleged hijacker whose instuctors said "could not fly at all", allegedly flew the aircraft down to 20 FEET off the Pentagon lawn at a speed of 530 MPH.

The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training

(3) The wings were oscillating right up to final impact, clipping poles and brushing aside construction equipment, and ingesting a part of a luminary into the engine. This is not an under control approach or crash.

Post your source. For the aircraft to have impacted as it did, it had to fly with its wings straight and its nose level, especially being there was no damage to the Pentagon lawn. If it had touched the ground with its wings, not only would the wing have broken off and exploded, it would have left obvious skid marks. There were none, and the wing didn't blow up on the lawn.

As far as the lightposts, the officers who first responded to the scene report those lightposts were still standing when they got there, but OTHER light poles were knocked down from the aircraft THEY saw hit the Pentagon, which flew north of the ALLEGED flight path taken according to the official story, which placed it over the poles YOU claim were knocked down.

(4) The entire secion hit did minimum damage to American interests. The hit was not in a place doing any substantial damage to the US. This is because he was trying to salvage a hit on the building at all instead of hitting a high value section.

The aircraft went OUT OF ITS WAY to avoid the high value section of the Pentagon, performing a precision manuever to direct it to the side it actually hit. Pretty thoughtful of that terrorist, wasn't it...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   20:14:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#521. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#516)

Provide the following information;

1.Where did he obtain this license? 2.What was the name of his instructor, and the name of the flight school? 3.Where and when did he get his private license? 4.What was the name of that instructor, and that flight school?

Go to hell and do your own research, Half Truther. Try to prove I'm lying and once again you'll get clouted.

All this documentation is freely available online. I already posted links where you could have followed through and found everything out yourself.

But no, you'd much prefer exchanging circlejerk gaybanter with your fellow cultists, than finding out anything real. So you've been putting your priorities where you think they belong- Circlejerk Fairyland instead of the evidence probviding subject matter for this this thred.

Not only did Hanjour get a commercial certificate in 1999, he was the longest hijacker in the US, dating back to 1990. So your "fairie" tale of an ignorant half baked rube once again fails the reality test.

Hanjour got a commercial pilot certificate in 1999.

What part of "HE COULDN'T FLY AT ALL" don't you understand?

The part where you swallow hook, line and sinker a clearly hyperbole statement.

What exactly does "couldn't fly at all" mean, Half Truther?

He couldn't flap his arms and become airborne?

Since Hanjour already passed all FAA exams in 1999 needed to get his commercial license, the "at all" is clearly false.

A more accurate statement is that in 2001, Hanjour didn't care about demonstrating the required skills needed to keep his 1999 commercial pilot license, because that wasn't what he saw his suicide mission needing. And his instructors noted at the time he was not material to demonstrate valid acceptable commercial pilot skills, because he did not care.

Finally, as long as you're getting another boxing around your ears, tell me what's so difficult about navigating by punching 4 digits for a suitable VORTAC/DME station into an instrument installed prominently on the cockpit control panel.

Are you and your fellow cultists claiming that's too difficult to do any navigation by... For whom, other than yourselves...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   22:31:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#522. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#520)

The ANGLE which the aircraft impacted the wall actually caused MORE damage than if it had hit at a 90 degree angle.

False. The starboard wing got mostly ground against the building exterior wall because it ran approximately parallel to it, while the port wing got folded back into the fuselage because it was inserted into a tight space with little force available to push the width of that space wider.

IF the wheels were down the aircraft would have landed.

No. In landing especially ground landings the power must be cut down drastically. Had the wheels been lowered the plane would have repeatedly bounced anywhere from a few feet to over 100.

As far as ground effect, it's physically impossible for a large heavy aircraft with relatively low wing-loading, such as a 757, to fly lower than 60 feet off the ground at speeds of 400+ mph. The alleged hijacker whose instuctors said "could not fly at all", allegedly flew the aircraft down to 20 FEET off the Pentagon lawn at a speed of 530 MPH.

Since Hanjour had aleady obtained a commercial pilot certificate two years earlier, the statement he could not fly at all is an exaggeration glommed onto by the Half Truther usual suspects, who can't be bothered to research facts, because that will take time away from their circlejerk gaybanter with each other.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   23:03:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#523. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#522)

Since Hanjour had aleady obtained a commercial pilot certificate two years earlier, the statement he could not fly at all is an exaggeration glommed onto by the Half Truther usual suspects, who can't be bothered to research facts, because that will take time away from their circlejerk gaybanter with each other.

Of course the comments of his flight instructor that he couldn't fly is of course an insignificant datum.

Keep those fingernails dug in that Official Fairy Tale about the magic Arabs, magick Jet fuel, and buildings that miraculously fall into their own footprint 3 at time is tough sell since there are so many things about it that are hilarious.

Wanna buy a bridge kid?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-20   23:13:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#524. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#523) (Edited)

Of course the comments of his flight instructor that he couldn't fly is of course an insignificant datum.

Hanjour's 1999 FAA commercial pilot certificate trumps the comments of his flight instructor.

None of you Half Truthers bothered to find out about that because all you are capable of is parroting whatever k00ksites put out.

Clearly Hanjour didn't GAS about the things his flight instructor thought were important. That does not translate into him being unable to do them, just that he couldn't be bothered to do them.

Keep those fingernails dug in that Official Fairy Tale

Here is a partial list, which will get bigger and bigger as I review my postings, of the issues you've been clouted on in this forum.

(1) Two aircraft crashes released gigajoules of kinetic energy into the Twin Tower structures, and within 2 hours both structures collapsed from structural damage,
(2) A fireman is recorded on video saying a third WTC Building, WTC7, will be going down because the building is losing its structural stability from crash damage and uncontrolled fires,
(3) Over 30 calls from hijacked aircraft were logged including several by flight attendants giving seat numbers and descriptions of hijackers,
(4) The false statement that Flight 77's cabin door was not opened has been demonstrated to be a lie, as there is no evidence about any cabin door operation of that aircraft either during or before the September 11 flight,
(5) The lauded "peer review publication" of Tw00ferk00ks Steven Jones and Niels Harrit have been shown to be pay-to- publish articles for which $800 was given to a Dhubai publishing mill, with zero other peer reviewed articles
(6) The phrase "pull" as used by the demolition industry means "pull down with cables," and as used by firefighters means "pull back from site,"
(7) Flight 77 impacted a recently-renovated portion of the Pentagon which was not fully occupied and still had construction equipment in place, and
(8) It's a physical impossibility for a structure to both be flexible enough to absorb gigajoules of energy, move away from vertical centerline, return to vertical centerline on its own, then be rigid enough to provide a fixed platform for a rotating and falling top section to collapse outside the building footprint
(9) The actual free fall times of the WTC towers have been conclusively shown as 15+ seconds for 1 tower and 22+ seconds for the other, an order of magnitude above the claimed "free fall time" of 9.22 seconds which is supposed to be evidence of a controlled demolition
(10) Claimed molten steel evidence of thermite flowing from 80th floors is actually aluminum and trash cooling on way down and not hot enough to remain melted as it falls a few hundred feet

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   23:18:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#525. To: AGAviator (#522)

Since Hanjour had aleady obtained a commercial pilot certificate two years earlier

Where did he get it from?

What was the name of his instructor?

What was the name of the flight school?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   0:57:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#526. To: AGAviator (#524)

You love to spam this 4um with the same bullshit, day in and day out, don't you...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   0:58:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#527. To: AGAviator (#521)

Go to hell and do your own research, Half Truther.

It doesn't exist, bullshit artist.

There IS no information on Hanjour, the "certificate" was probably entered into the computer by an "associate". There is no record of what school he took lessons from in terms of either a commericial or private pilot's license.

It was fabricated apparently.

His instructors at the flight simulator school said he couldn't fly at all, and that was reported by the New York Times.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   1:01:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#528. To: AGAviator (#522)

False. The starboard wing got mostly ground against the building exterior wall because it ran approximately parallel to it, while the port wing got folded back into the fuselage because it was inserted into a tight space with little force available to push the width of that space wider.

Hey moron, the fuselage entered the building and penetrated HOW many rings? Screw off with your "little force available" tap dance.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   1:03:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#529. To: AGAviator (#522)

No. In landing especially ground landings the power must be cut down drastically. Had the wheels been lowered the plane would have repeatedly bounced anywhere from a few feet to over 100.

The power has to be cut for the plane to descend normally, and for the nose to touch down. SOMEHOW he managed to FLY the plane at 530 mph at an altitude it would normally land at, so he DID effectively land the plane, in a manner not even professional airline pilots could hope to accomplish.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   1:05:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#530. To: AGAviator (#522)

Since Hanjour had aleady obtained a commercial pilot certificate two years earlier, the statement he could not fly at all is an exaggeration glommed onto by the Half Truther usual suspects, who can't be bothered to research facts, because that will take time away from their circlejerk gaybanter with each other.

Go file your complaint with the New York Times and his flight school, they're the ones who reported it, circlegobbler.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   1:07:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#531. To: Original_Intent (#523)

Of course the comments of his flight instructor that he couldn't fly is of course an insignificant datum.

To AGJerkoff, the New York Times is a "circle jerk conspiracy source", where him and his butt pal buck are "official experts" and more knowledgeable about all this than any scientist, flight instructor, pilot, or anyone else who disagrees with THEIR story.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   1:11:22 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#532. To: AGAviator (#522)

Since Hanjour had aleady obtained a commercial pilot certificate two years earlier, the statement he could not fly at all is an exaggeration glommed onto by the Half Truther usual suspects, who can't be bothered to research facts, because that will take time away from their circlejerk gaybanter with each other

From Newsday Magazine

However, when Baxter and fellow instructor Ben Conner took the slender, soft- spoken Hanjour on three test runs during the second week of August, they found he had trouble controlling and landing the single-engine Cessna 172. Even though Hanjour showed a federal pilot's license and a log book cataloging 600 hours of flying experience, chief flight instructor Marcel Bernard declined to rent him a plane without more lessons.

In the spring of 2000, Hanjour had asked to enroll in the CRM Airline Training Center in Scottsdale, Ariz., for advanced training, said the center's attorney, Gerald Chilton Jr. Hanjour had attended the school for three months in late 1996 and again in December 1997 but never finished coursework for a license to fly a single-engine aircraft, Chilton said.

When Hanjour reapplied to the center last year, "We declined to provide training to him because we didn't think he was a good enough student when he was there in 1996 and 1997," Chilton said.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   1:18:52 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#533. To: FormerLurker (#532)

He was so bad they didn't even want to train him.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-21   1:33:13 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#534. To: FormerLurker (#526)

You love to spam this 4um with the same bullshit

You can't rebut any of it, Half Truther...So you go to Plan B, circlejerk gaybanter with your Twisters.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   1:45:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#535. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#527)

There IS no information on Hanjour, the "certificate" was probably entered into the computer by an "associate". There is no record of what school he took lessons from in terms of either a commericial or private pilot's license.

It was fabricated apparently.

His instructors at the flight simulator school said he couldn't fly at all, and that was reported by the New York Times

Lying as usual, fuckwit.

It's all on public records referred to by links I've already provided.

Pathetic loser.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   1:47:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#536. To: James Deffenbach, FormerLurker (#513)

What part of "HE COULDN'T FLY AT ALL" don't you understand?

It must be the word "couldn't" that is tripping him up. Look at all those letters, such a big word!

Well you know how he is about BIG words.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-21   1:49:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#537. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#532) (Edited)

Even though Hanjour showed a federal pilot's license and a log book cataloging 600 hours of flying experience, chief flight instructor Marcel Bernard declined to rent him a plane without more lessons.

You just finished telling me Hanjour's pilot certificate was non existent and a fake, because the NY Times said nothing about it.

Now you're quoting another source that explicitly says Hanjour had a Federal pilot license, and 600 hours in his logbook

Spin and twist, Chubby Checker.

Spin and twist.

LOLOL!!!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   1:51:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#538. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#536) (Edited)

What part of "HE COULDN'T FLY AT ALL" don't you understand?

What part of "1999 Federal commercial pilot license" and "600 hours in logbook" don't you understand, Half Truther?

To get his 1999 commercial pilot license, Hanjour had to pass FAA tests both written and flight performance.

Eat your words, loser.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   1:54:50 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#539. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#532) (Edited)

Never finished coursework for a license to fly a single-engine aircraft, Chilton said.

Two different types of licenses, Half Truther.

Once again you conflate two distinct items, into a single gloopy tarball of k00kspiracy theory.

Hanjour's license and training were for a commercial pilot, which is the license you need to fly passenger carrying jets.

Hanjour's single engine license private pilot is not relevant to 911 unless you want to claim Hanjour somehow needed to fly a Cessna 172 into the targets.

Nearly all aircraft pilots say it's harder to fly smaller aircraft than larger ones. The smaller craft are more susceptible to wind and weather changes, don't have backup safety systems, and require constant attention. Even experienced ATP pilots are often asked to take additional training if they have not piloted smaller craft recently.

As I have already said, the hardest parts of piloting are takeoffs and landings. So what does your source say?

when Baxter and fellow instructor Ben Conner took the slender, soft- spoken Hanjour on three test runs...they found he had trouble controlling and landing the single- engine Cessna 172
You know what? The Cessna people made the right decision. They owned an airplane with millions of dollars of liability insurance on it. They didn't feel like renting to anyone who could not completely control the aircraft under all circumstances. That was the smart thing to do.

However Hanjour knew just enough about both large and small planes to be dangerous. And he didn't need anyone's permission to hijack an airplane and fly it into a building, however clumsily.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   3:15:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#540. To: FormerLurker (#531)

To AGJerkoff, the New York Times is a "circle jerk conspiracy source", where him and his butt pal buck are "official experts" and more knowledgeable about all this than any scientist, flight instructor, pilot, or anyone else who disagrees with THEIR story.

And if all that isn't enough they even know more than all the eyewitnesses who were there on scene and heard bombs. You know, the firefighters and folks like that. People who probably don't get rattled too easily.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   8:07:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#541. To: FormerLurker (#527)

There IS no information on Hanjour, the "certificate" was probably entered into the computer by an "associate". There is no record of what school he took lessons from in terms of either a commericial or private pilot's license.

It was fabricated apparently.

Like Obama's birth certificate. See how much that sumbitch has in common with terrorists?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   8:13:17 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#542. To: Original_Intent (#536)

Well you know how he is about BIG words.

Indeed. Before I put his ignunt ass on my clown filter I had noticed that. Now I never see his delusions unless someone posts to him and copies and pastes what he is rambling about into their reply.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   8:15:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#543. To: AGAviator (#539)

Hanjour's license and training were for a commercial pilot, which is the license you need to fly passenger carrying jets.

Which apparently is fake, as there's no record of him ever taking lessons for that.

Besides, are you trying to say you don't need to know how to take-off, land, or fly a plane in order to obtain a commericial license?

Are you saying that you don't need to know how to fly a single engine plane before progressing to multi-engine?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   11:53:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#544. To: AGAviator (#537)

Now you're quoting another source that explicitly says Hanjour had a Federal pilot license, and 600 hours in his logbook

A logbook and license that had no basis in reality. Again, find his records indicating he ever took lessons and ever held a private license. Find the names of his prior flight schools.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   11:55:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#545. To: AGAviator (#535)

It's all on public records referred to by links I've already provided.

What was the name of his commercial flight school?

What was the name of his instructor?

What was the name of his private license flight school?

Where's his multi-engine certificate?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   11:56:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#546. To: AGAviator (#534)

In the spring of 2000, Hanjour had asked to enroll in the CRM Airline Training Center in Scottsdale, Ariz., for advanced training, said the center's attorney, Gerald Chilton Jr. Hanjour had attended the school for three months in late 1996 and again in December 1997 but never finished coursework for a license to fly a single-engine aircraft, Chilton said.

When Hanjour reapplied to the center last year, "We declined to provide training to him because we didn't think he was a good enough student when he was there in 1996 and 1997," Chilton said.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   11:57:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#547. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, *9-11* (#539)

Nearly all aircraft pilots say it's harder to fly smaller aircraft than larger ones.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Find me ONE legitimate pilot who EVER said it's easier to fly an airliner than it is to fly a Cessna 172.

Post it here, or admit that you are a LIAR EXTRAORDINAIRE.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   12:20:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#548. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#546)

In the spring of 2000, Hanjour had asked to enroll in the CRM Airline Training Center in Scottsdale , Ariz., for advanced training, said the center's attorney, Gerald Chilton Jr. Hanjour had attended the school for three months in late 1996 and again in December 1997 but never finished coursework for a license to fly a single-engine aircraft, Chilton said.

Wrong pilot license, wrong aircraft, wrong school, wrong dates.

Hanjour got an FAA commercial pilot license, not private pilot license, the license was from a different school than you cite, it was for a passenger aircraft and not a single engine Cessna 172, and it was during a different time period than you mention.

On your attempts to introduce facts you're 0 for 4.

When you claim Hanjour never got any license and someone entered phony information into a computer, 0 for 5.

Anything else you want to fuck up, Half Truther, before I clout you on yet another misrepresented narrative?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   12:21:53 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#549. To: AGAviator, *9-11* (#539)


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   12:23:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#550. To: AGAviator (#548)

Anything else you want to fuck up, Half Truther, before I clout you on yet another misrepresented narrative?

Hey you lying POS, when are you going to put your tail between you legs and scampper off to whatever hole you crawled out of?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   12:24:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#551. To: AGAviator (#534)

You can't rebut any of it, Half Truther [FormerLurker]...So you go to Plan B, circlejerk gaybanter with your Twisters.

Why do you give FormerLurker so much credit? He is not even close, based upon his "cabin door theories" "FLT77 from Ohio theories" "government complicit demolition theories" ... the list goes on and on and on..... He has successfully sidetracked this thread ( as always ) .... now, we are talking about Hanjour's background .... like that little terrorist is so remarkable.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   12:28:46 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#552. To: FormerLurker (#547)

aggravator: Nearly all aircraft pilots say it's harder to fly smaller aircraft than larger ones.

Oh Lawd have mercy, my freakin' sides!!! I guess the next thing will be that all professional truck drivers will tell us that it is far easier to drive a fully loaded tractor trailer over an ice road in Alaska than a Volkswagon on a good road in clear weather. ahaha. I will probably chuckle over that one off and on the rest of the day. Thanks. I wouldn't have seen that insanity if you hadn't copied it in your reply.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   12:32:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#553. To: AGAviator (#548) (Edited)

Hanjour got an FAA commercial pilot license, not private pilot license, the license was from a different school than you cite, it was for a passenger aircraft and not a single engine Cessna 172, and it was during a different time period than you mention.

So I'm supposed to believe YOU, the forum liar, rather than the news reports that reported the facts concerning Hanjour's background, eh?

Post the following information concerning Hanjour's commercial license;

  1. The name of the FAA inspector who signed off on his commercial certificate
  2. The name of his commericial flight school and instructor(s)
  3. Find any information on his multi-engine license or certificate
  4. Find any information on his single-engine license

You see genius, you can't walk into an FAA office and tell them you want a commericial license, have them say ok, here ya go. You HAVE to FIRST take lessons for a SINGLE-ENGINE PRIVATE license, solo, acquire flight hours, THEN take a test with an FAA examiner, similar to driver's road test, where every aspect of a pilot's abilities are scrutinized, THEN if successful a PRIVATE SINGLE ENGINE license is issued.

THEN, in order to fly MULTI-ENGINE planes, you need to take lessons for that and go through a similar process.

THEN, a pilot would need to fly a simulator and take lessons for IFR flight, ie. flying with instruments only, and be examined for that, and be issued a IFR certificate.

THEN, a pilot would need to log many hours of time IFR, and take lessons for a COMMERCIAL license, THEN be examined by the FAA for that.

So go ahead and provide that information concerning his flight training and FAA certifications.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   12:35:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#554. To: James Deffenbach (#552)

Oh Lawd have mercy, my freakin' sides!!! I guess the next thing will be that all professional truck drivers will tell us that it is far easier to drive a fully loaded tractor trailer over an ice road in Alaska than a Volkswagon on a good road in clear weather. ahaha. I will probably chuckle over that one off and on the rest of the day. Thanks. I wouldn't have seen that insanity if you hadn't copied it in your reply.

Yep, I'm sure B-52 pilots find it easier to fly those big suckers than a Cessna or Piper single engine.

Just like it's much easier to pilot an oil tanker or aircraft carrier than it is operate a rowboat or a speed boat.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   12:43:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#555. To: buckeroo (#551)

"FLT77 from Ohio theories"

Hey numbnuts, are you STILL trying to say that FLT77 didn't fly over Ohio?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   12:44:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#556. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#547)

Nearly all aircraft pilots say it's harder to fly smaller aircraft than larger ones.

Find me ONE legitimate pilot who EVER said it's easier to fly an airliner than it is to fly a Cessna 172.

Gawd, swatting you is about as much work as smacking an insect.

Flight Instructor Hal Stoen

They come in all shapes and sizes. High wing, low wing, I've even known people that started- and completed- their training in a twin.

What's best? The one that is the most difficult to fly!

Well, within reason of course.

A Cessna 152, for example, is more sensitive on the controls than it's larger brother, the 172. If you learn to fly in a 152, and then step-up to a 172 it will be a piece of cake to handle. It's more difficult the other way around.

Generally speaking, the larger the aircraft the easier it is to fly.

And, the guy that learns in a tail-dragger has a much easier time of transistioning to a tricycle gear than the tricycle driver does going the other direction.

So, in my opinion, opt for the small trainer.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   12:46:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#557. To: FormerLurker (#554)

Just like it's much easier to pilot an oil tanker or aircraft carrier than it is operate a rowboat or a speed boat.

Yeah, those rowboats are some hard work. I think I will apply for a job as captain of one of those oil tankers and have it made. Easy duty, no heavy lifting and simple work I guess. What could be better? Or maybe I will just decide that I want to be a pilot and fly for Delta or somebody since that is so simple. I wish I had known all this at a younger age.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   12:50:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#558. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#549) (Edited)

Swatting you is as easy as smacking an insect.

0:35 "See, he was already certified. He didn't come to us for flight training"

0:40 "He already earned his private instrument commercial at a school in Arizona. I don't remember the name of the school, but he already had certificates in hand"

1:50 "Hanjour paid $400 cash and provided a valid pilot's license from Arizona, Bernard said."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   12:55:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#559. To: FormerLurker (#526)

You love to spam this 4um with the same bullshit, day in and day out, don't you...

that is all the members of the liar movement have, take away the bull and all that is left is their dung.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-21   12:56:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#560. To: AGAviator (#556)

A Cessna 152, for example, is more sensitive on the controls than it's larger brother, the 172. If you learn to fly in a 152, and then step-up to a 172 it will be a piece of cake to handle. It's more difficult the other way around. Generally speaking, the larger the aircraft the easier it is to fly. And, the guy that learns in a tail-dragger has a much easier time of transistioning to a tricycle gear than the tricycle driver does going the other direction. So, in my opinion, opt for the small trainer. High wing or low wing? I'm partial to the high wing for the reasons stated above, but it's really a matter of what the flight school that you pick uses.

Yes, and they are BOTH SINGLE-ENGINE PRIVATE AIRCRAFT you bloviating idiot. He wasn't talking about airliners being easier to fly than a SINGLE ENGINE plane you retard.

Cessna 152

Cessna 172

Boeing 757


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   12:59:32 ET  (3 images) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#561. To: AGAviator (#558)

"He already earned his private instrument commercial at a school in Arizona. I don't remember the name of the school, but he already had certificates in hand"

So go ahead and find the information genius.

Find the name of that commericial flight school that he obtained his license from.

Besides, who's to say that character on YouTube isn't a contract pilot for some alphabet soup agency. Don't tell there aren't any, as we ALL know better than that.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   13:02:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#562. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#560)

"Generally speaking, the larger the aircraft the easier it is to fly."

Airline pilots used to flying planes on autopilot with co crew members helping out, generally have more difficult times being single pilot in command on smaller private planes, with no backup, no flight computers, and no push button controls to do the work.

If you knew jack$hit about aviation you would know that already.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   13:08:22 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#563. To: AGAviator (#556)

A Cessna 152, for example, is more sensitive on the controls than it's larger brother, the 172. If you learn to fly in a 152, and then step-up to a 172 it will be a piece of cake to handle. It's more difficult the other way around.

Yet, he couldn't even fly a 172...

HAHAHAHA!!!!

This from The Prince George's Journal (Maryland), September 18, 2001:

Marcel Bernard, the chief flight instructor at the airport, said the man named Hani Hanjour went into the air in a Cessna 172 with instructors from the airport three times beginning the second week of August and had hoped to rent a plane from the airport.

According to published reports, law enforcement sources say Hanjour, in his mid- twenties, is suspected of crashing the American Airlines Flight 77 into the Pentagon. . . .

Hanjour had his pilot's license, said Bernard, but needed what is called a 'check-out' done by the airport to gauge a pilot's skills before he or she is able to rent a plane at Freeway Airport which runs parallel to Route 50. Instructors at the school told Bernard that after three times in the air, they still felt he was unable to fly solo and that Hanjour seemed disappointed ...

... Published reports said Hanjour obtained his pilot's license in April of 1999, but it expired six months later because he did not complete a required medical exam. He also was trained for a few months at a private school in Scottsdale, Ariz., in 1996, but did not finish the course because instructors felt he was not capable.

Hanjour had 600 hours listed in his log book, Bernard said, and instructors were surprised he was not able to fly better with the amount of experience. Pete Goulatta, a special agent and spokesman for the FBI, said it is an on- going criminal investigation and he could not comment. (pg. 1.)


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   13:09:49 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#564. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#553)

You HAVE to FIRST take lessons for a SINGLE-ENGINE PRIVATE license, solo, acquire flight hours, THEN take a test with an FAA examiner, similar to driver's road test, where every aspect of a pilot's abilities are scrutinized, THEN if successful a PRIVATE SINGLE ENGINE license is issued.

THEN, in order to fly MULTI-ENGINE planes, you need to take lessons for that and go through a similar process.

THEN, a pilot would need to fly a simulator and take lessons for IFR flight, ie. flying with instruments only, and be examined for that, and be issued a IFR certificate.

THEN, a pilot would need to log many hours of time IFR, and take lessons for a COMMERCIAL license, THEN be examined by the FAA for that.

Bull$hit.

You can if you wish go directly into commercial aircraft training school. There is no mandatory connection between private single engine and commercial ATP licensing.

That is exactly what Hanjour did.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   13:11:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#565. To: AGAviator (#562)

Airline pilots used to flying planes on autopilot with co crew members helping out, generally have more difficult times being single pilot in command on smaller private planes, with no backup, no flight computers, and no push button controls to do the work.

You don't know ANYTHING concerning aviation you lying POS.

EVERYBODY who knows ANYTHING about aircraft is LAUGHING at you.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   13:11:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#566. To: FormerLurker (#554)

maybe ole hanjour flew for delta...


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-21   13:11:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#567. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#563) (Edited)

Published reports said Hanjour obtained his pilot's license in April of 1999, but it expired six months later because he did not complete a required medical exam

Back pedaling again, Half Truther?

Did Hanjour get, or did he not get, a commercial pilot license, contrary to your scores of k00kblather word dumps denying he ever had one?

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

SWACK!!!!!!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   13:14:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#568. To: AGAviator (#564)

You can if you wish go directly into commercial aircraft training school. There is no mandatory connection between private single engine and commercial ATP licensing.

LIAR. You REALLY should look this stuff up before you are caught in some serious lies, like this one.

From ADF Airways

Requirements for a Commmercial Pilot License

This FAA certificate allows you to fly any aircraft for compensation or hire. The requirements are:


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   13:18:20 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#569. To: AGAviator (#567)

Did Hanjour get, or did he not get, a commercial pilot license, contrary to your hundreds of k00kblather word dumps denying he ever had one?

Find his commericial AND private training records, shillster.

REPORTS simply repeat what his instructors say, in that he showed them a licencse. Ok, well if he had this license, where'd he get the training?

Also, which FAA examiner signed off on his license? Where was the exam taken?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   13:20:30 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#570. To: IRTorqued (#566)

maybe ole hanjour flew for delta...

LOL, I doubt they'd get off the ground, since as AG says, he didn't really need to know how to do that.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   13:23:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#571. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#568)

Requirements for a Commmercial Pilot License

This FAA certificate allows you to fly any aircraft for compensation or hire. The requirements are:

•You must be a private pilot.

The requirements may have changed.

However if you want to confirm that Hanjour had both a private license, and a commercial pilot license, totally undercutting your false claims "he couldn't fly," fine with me!

Enjoy debunking yourself!!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   13:25:24 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#572. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#561)

Find the name of that commericial flight school that he obtained his license from.

It doesn't matter, pal. Hanjour left the United States again in April 1999, after receiving an FAA commercial pilot certificate. - page 135 of the REPORT OF THE JOINT INQUIRY INTO THE TERRORIST ATTACKS OF SEPTEMBER 11, 2001 – BY THE HOUSE PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE AND THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE

You lose another BS argument.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   13:28:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#573. To: AGAviator (#571)

The requirements may have changed.

BS, they've always been that way in terms of modern aviation. Perhaps back when the Wright Brothers flew there was no such requirement, then again they didn't have jets back then either, NOR did they have an FAA.

However if you want to confirm that Hanjour had both a private license, and a commercial pilot license, totally undercutting your false claims "he couldn't fly," fine with me!

Provide any record of the flight school that trained him for his commercial license.

Provide any record of his commercial exams, practical and oral.

Provide any record of the private training and exam.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   13:28:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#574. To: IRTorqued (#566)

that's funny ;P

christine  posted on  2010-07-21   13:29:32 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#575. To: buckeroo (#572)

Hanjour left the United States again in April 1999, after receiving an FAA commercial pilot certificate. - page 135

So he didn't really have any training, he just got one printed up for him, right?

Provide any records of this certificate and training.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   13:29:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#576. To: buckeroo (#572) (Edited)

We are to believe he had both a private pilot's license and commercial license, yet he couldn't even fly a Cessna 172, a MUCH easier aircraft to fly than most others, according to your pal's research.

Uh huh.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   13:32:13 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#577. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#576)

We are to believe he had both a private pilot's license and commercial license, yet he couldn't even fly a Cessna 172, a MUCH easier aircraft to fly than most others, according to your pal's research.

AG already has explained this point of confusion for you. Why don't you go back off into your "new made up theory" about how received that same FAA certification.

I know... because I read the entire REPORT.... I gave you the link, you do the research.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   13:36:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#578. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, *9-11* (#549)

.

Excellent video, thank you for the ping.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-21   13:42:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#579. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#573)

The requirements may have changed.

BS, they've always been that way in terms of modern aviation.

Wrong as usual.

FAR 61.123 became effective 12/01/1978.

Hanjour would have been covered. Older existing commercial pilots would not have been.

But thanks again for blasting yourself in your foot by demonstrating Hanjour had 2 valid pilot licenses in 1999, contrary to your explicit claims he couldn't fly anything, at all.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   13:52:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#580. To: wudidiz (#578) (Edited)

0:35 "See, he was already certified. He didn't come to us for flight training"

0:40 "He already earned his private instrument commercial at a school in Arizona. I don't remember the name of the school, but he already had certificates in hand"

1:50 "Hanjour paid $400 cash and provided a valid pilot's license from Arizona, Bernard said."

2:12 "There's no doubt in my mind that once Flight 77 got going, Hanjour could have pointed that plane at the building and hit it, Bernard said"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   13:54:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#581. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#579)

I think FL is just clowning around on the internet.... he is probably a REAL, PSYOP ... just pretending to be on the "otherside" while he gets his buddies in the FBI to track our IP addys.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   13:56:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#582. To: buckeroo (#581)

I think FL is just clowning around on the internet.... he is probably a REAL, PSYOP ... just pretending to be on the "otherside" while

madrussian used to call the provacateurs "commissars" ala the 1917 fake front resistance actually 100% controlled by the Kremlin Cheka.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   14:01:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#583. To: AGAviator (#562)

Airline pilots used to flying planes on autopilot with co crew members helping out, generally have more difficult times being single pilot in command on smaller private planes, with no backup, no flight computers, and no push button controls to do the work.

Guess what pissant, there was no push button for flying into the WTC towers.

Now get back to work asshole.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   14:09:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#584. To: AGAviator (#582)

FL certainly wants fine "off the wall" details as he slips and stumbles all over these 9/11 threads. I am thinking he is a planted government agent.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   14:10:50 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#585. To: AGAviator (#580)

"There's no doubt in my mind that once Flight 77 got going, Hanjour could have pointed that plane at the building and hit it, Bernard said"

There is no doubt in my mind that you work for the ones that did 9/11. Enjoy your time on Earth, it is all you got, eternal hell awaits you.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   14:17:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#586. To: RickyJ (#583)

this is the work of the high as in stonedcommissioner of the liar movement along with his "trusty" side kick bucky.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-21   14:25:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#587. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, Critter, IRTorqued, abraxas, all (#571)

Requirements for a Commmercial Pilot License

This FAA certificate allows you to fly any aircraft for compensation or hire. The requirements are:

•You must be a private pilot.

The requirements may have changed.

However if you want to confirm that Hanjour had both a private license, and a commercial pilot license, totally undercutting your false claims "he couldn't fly," fine with me!

Enjoy debunking yourself!!!!!

So, is it your argument that ALL pilots are of equivalent skill?

Is it your argument that it is impossible that he got it fraudulently?

Despite your extensive time backslapping yourself and giving yourself "high 5's" you have not addressed the fundamental question regarding Hanjour's piloting?

How skilled was he?

Did he have experience the the type of aircraft he allegedly flew? You have produced NOTHING which supports his having the knowledge and skills to fly this type of aircraft. My father had a commercial license and was a damn good pilot, but I guarantee you that he would not set down behind the controls of a new type of aircraft without a good many hours of check-out and training on the new plane. Airline pilots are not interchangeable, except for a very few very senior pilots, between aircraft types.

Ever meet someone with a Phd. who was a complete boob? I have, and there are plenty of them out there. I have had people work for me who, on paper, were better educated, but they could not do my job. Paper proves nothing other than someone has passed the minimum requirements for something, and showing a piece of paper is not even a guarantee because paper can be forged or bought from a crooked employee. There have been instances where someone has actually performed as a Surgeon without even having gone to medical school (look up "The Great Impostor"). John Malloy who wrote "Dress For Success" wrote another book not quite as well known titled "Live For Success". One of the things he points out in his book is that there are some TOP Executives who do not have the education and certificates their resumes say they have. He commented that in fact some were so highly placed that he dare not say who (although a lot of the info was gathered under a bonded secrecy agreement).

Paper proves nothing, the ability to actually do the job is everything.

Stanley Ovshinsky is a High School graduate only, and yet there are probably not 5 men on the planet who know more about Solid State Physics than the man who invented the Amorphous Thin Film Solar Panel.

By all credible accounts and testimony from people who actually knew him, and were qualified to judge, Hanjour was incompetent as a pilot and to such a degree that he was turned down for rental of a single engine Cessna. And you want us to believe, on the strength of a possibly forged or bought Pilot's Certificate (for which you can show no background or training to merit), that he could fly a 757 the way the Red Baron flew a Fokker Triplane. Get real.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-21   14:28:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#588. To: Original_Intent (#587)

And you want us to believe, on the strength of a possibly forged or bought Pilot's Certificate (for which you can show no background or training to merit), that he could fly a 757 the way the Red Baron flew a Fokker Triplane. Get real.

You are BUSTED! I provided the detail @post#572 ... Hanjour was (in fact FAA certified) .....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   14:41:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#589. To: AGAviator (#267) (Edited)

Aircraft or any other structures are not designed to rip themselves to shreds.

The WTC towers weren't designed to blow up either, but they did on 9/11 when a little Jew pushed the remote control detonation button and laughed with glee as he watched the buildings come down. Little brain dead Jew Silverstien ~ The decision was made to pull it, and we watched it come down.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   15:24:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#590. To: buckeroo, *9-11* (#584)

FL certainly wants fine "off the wall" details as he slips and stumbles all over these 9/11 threads. I am thinking he is a planted government agent.

You and your government shillster friend want to convince everyone here that an idiot who couldn't fly a single engine Cessna somehow qualified as a commerical pilot.

Go ahead and provide his credentials, including the name of his commericial flight school, and the place and date of his FAA commercial exam, along with a copy of his certificate.

There should be copies of that all over the web, since it's an integral part of your (oh I mean the "official") story.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   15:26:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#591. To: buckeroo (#588)

You are BUSTED! I provided the detail @post#572 ... Hanjour was (in fact FAA certified) .....

You've been BUSTED so many times over the past several threads on this topic that I've lost count.

It's apparent that you ARE just another shill here buck. I thought you were just an eccentric poster here who liked to mess with people, acting as a troll more often than not, just to rile people up, where you'd sit back and enjoy the show.

Perhaps you're a "sleeper", who knows.

What's obvious though is whenever any hard evidence is brought to light, you've been proven wrong, yet you still cling to your false beliefs as if they were part of your religion.

Go ahead and find a copy of Hanjour's commercial pilot's license. See if you can find the location and date he took his FAA exam, and if the FAA examiner's name is on that certificate.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   15:31:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#592. To: AGAviator, RickyJ (#580)

"There's no doubt in my mind that once Flight 77 got going, Hanjour could have pointed that plane at the building and hit it, Bernard said"

Either this guy didn't yet know the facts concerning how that plane was flown and the manuevers it made, or he's lying.

Hanjour didn't just hijack the plane over Washington and dive it into the Pentagon, he FLEW it from Ohio to Washington, descended into a precision turn, and FLEW it at treetop level for a mile or so at 400+ mph then effectively LANDED it without touching the ground, ie. he brought it down to 20 feet off the deck while flying it at 530 MPH, and FLEW right into the Pentagon wall at ground level, with his nose level.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   15:36:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#593. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#587)

So, is it your argument that ALL pilots are of equivalent skill?

Is it your argument that it is impossible that he got it fraudulently?

My argument is that nearly every single statement you Half-Truthers make is out of context, selectively quoting, idiotic pretenses at being logical, or just plain false.

As in Post #527

There IS no information on Hanjour, the "certificate" was probably entered into the computer by an "associate". There is no record of what school he took lessons from in terms of either a commericial or private pilot's license.

It was fabricated apparently.

...

FormerLurker posted on 2010-07-21 1:01:57 ET Reply Trace Private Reply as well as the claim Hanjour couldn't fly anything, when in fact he had to have passed FAA tests giving him a commercial pilot license in 1999.

The clearest explanation is from Bernard,who saw the reality that regardless of how sloppy Hanjour looked, he still had enough knowledge and skill to be able to take an aircraft over mid-air and crash it at high speeds.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   15:39:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#594. To: buckeroo, christine (#581)

I think FL is just clowning around on the internet.... he is probably a REAL, PSYOP ... just pretending to be on the "otherside" while he gets his buddies in the FBI to track our IP addys.

You are shilling for the official story and backing up an obvious shill, attacking posters here who are simply presenting facts.

I think YOU work for the government there buckie, along with your sidekick, AGAviator.

Which agency do you work for?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   15:39:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#595. To: FormerLurker (#594)

I think YOU work for the government there buckie, along with your sidekick, AGAviator.

Which agency do you work for?

I am beginning to believe buck's issue--well, at least one of them, lo, they are legion--is something more than the IRS after him. Do you think maybe the government has video of him in a compromising position with a goat in a bar in Mexico or something like that?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   15:42:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#596. To: FormerLurker (#592)

he brought it down to 20 feet off the deck while flying it at 530 MPH, and FLEW right into the Pentagon wall at ground level, with his nose level.

Or someone did.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   15:43:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#597. To: buckeroo (#581) (Edited)

I think FL is just clowning around on the internet.... he is probably a REAL, PSYOP ... just pretending to be on the "otherside" while he gets his buddies in the FBI to track our IP addys.

As if you are not clowning around on the Internet. Or maybe you aren't clowning around. Maybe this is your full time job.

WTC 7

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   15:44:10 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#598. To: agAgitprop (#593)

Who is Barry Jennings ?


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-21   15:45:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#599. To: Original_Intent (#587)

showing a piece of paper is not even a guarantee because paper can be forged or bought from a crooked employee.

As evidence of that Sun Yat Sen, known to have been born in China, had a Hawaiian bc like Obama's (known to have been born in Kenya).

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   15:47:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#600. To: AGAviator, *9-11* (#593)

as well as the claim Hanjour couldn't fly anything, when in fact he had to have passed FAA tests giving him a commercial pilot license in 1999.

His INSTRUCTORS made that statement you bloviating retard, as was reported in the New York Times article which I linked.

Here it is again, liar.

From the New York Times

Ultimately, administrators at the school told Mr. Hanjour that he would not qualify for the advanced certificate. But the ex- employee said Mr. Hanjour continued to pay to train on a simulator for Boeing 737 jets. "He didn't care about the fact that he couldn't get through the course," the ex-employee said.

Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot. "I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon," the former employee said. He could not fly at all."

Of course, your style here is to spam the thread with dozens of lengthy crapola posts whenever any real facts or news reports are presented, taking the actual evidence out of view for people just glancing over the latest comments, and there you rely on ad hominems and outright lies to "make your point".


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   15:48:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#601. To: RickyJ (#597)

great .gif


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-21   15:48:13 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#602. To: James Deffenbach (#595)

I am beginning to believe buck's issue--well, at least one of them, lo, they are legion--is something more than the IRS after him. Do you think maybe the government has video of him in a compromising position with a goat in a bar in Mexico or something like that?

Worse than just a goat I'd bet. Little boys perhaps?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   15:49:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#603. To: James Deffenbach (#599)

If the shills they're sending to 4 these days is any indicator, we are getting the low end of the pay scale kind of attention...what's freakrepuznik producing to send out on 'missions' to conquer our little chit chat sites ? I guess el pee was conquered so now we get a little 'love'. LOL


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-21   15:52:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#604. To: IRTorqued (#566)

maybe ole hanjour flew for delta...

Make sure you're on the right aircraf'. Make sure you apply your own max before you put one on yo' chile.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   15:54:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#605. To: AGAviator (#593)

The clearest explanation is from Bernard,who saw the reality that regardless of how sloppy Hanjour looked, he still had enough knowledge and skill to be able to take an aircraft over mid-air and crash it at high speeds.

Thing is though Mr. Secret Agent, he didn't CRASH it, nor did the "takeover" occur anywhere near his target, it happened over Ohio, and he was able to FLY it to Washington, THEN perform a precision descent while turning, level off the plane at treetop level, and FLY it at 400+ mph towards the Pentagon, THEN descend to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph the last split second and FLY it into the Pentagon wall.

Stop spinning there slick, you're going to make yourself dizzy.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   15:55:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#606. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, all (#572)

Find the name of that commericial flight school that he obtained his license from.

It doesn't matter, pal. Hanjour left the United States again in April 1999, after receiving an FAA commercial pilot certificate. - page 135 of the REPORT OF THE JOINT INQUIRY INTO THE TERRORIST ATTACKS OF SEPTEMBER 11, 2001 – BY THE HOUSE PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE AND THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE

You lose another BS argument.

Bullshit yourself Buckaroonie - I downloaded the report and checked the reference. No such report exists on page 135 of the pdf.

So, produce a legitimate reference citing chapter and verse of where Hanjour allegedly got his license and under what circumstances or stand refuted.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-21   15:59:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#607. To: Rotara (#603)

If the shills they're sending to 4 these days is any indicator, we are getting the low end of the pay scale kind of attention...what's freakrepuznik producing to send out on 'missions' to conquer our little chit chat sites ? I guess el pee was conquered so now we get a little 'love'. LOL

If the shills that have infested this place is the best they've got they have knocked the bottom out of the barrel and started digging. Useless trolls who want to argue that up is down and black is white. People should just put them on the clown filter and be done with them. If no one would pay them any attention they might leave. Although I will have to say that it was entertaining to find out that one of them believed, or claimed to, that it was harder to fly a little Cessna than a big ol' commercial airliner. Pretty good chuckle right there.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   16:00:32 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#608. To: FormerLurker (#602)

Worse than just a goat I'd bet. Little boys perhaps?

Maybe. Maybe both.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   16:02:20 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#609. To: FormerLurker (#591)

What's obvious though is whenever any hard evidence is brought to light, you've been proven wrong, yet you still cling to your false beliefs as if they were part of your religion.

You can't explain documented testimony, mathematics and physics.... but you can cite conspiracy websites..... Honestly, be a man about it and confess that you are BUSTED ... with AG's and my researched documentation about all of your silly conspiracies.... you lose again.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   16:03:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#610. To: buckeroo (#609) (Edited)

You can't explain documented testimony, mathematics and physics

He can't to you, you don't understand such topics.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   16:05:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#611. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#606)

Bullshit yourself Buckaroonie - I downloaded the report and checked the reference. No such report exists on page 135 of the pdf.

So, produce a legitimate reference citing chapter and verse of where Hanjour allegedly got his license and under what circumstances or stand refuted.

Wow, buckie getting caught in another lie. How NOT surprising...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   16:07:04 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#612. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#593)

So, is it your argument that ALL pilots are of equivalent skill?

Is it your argument that it is impossible that he got it fraudulently?

My argument is that nearly every single statement you Half-Truthers make is out of context, selectively quoting, idiotic pretenses at being logical, or just plain false.

As in Post #527

There IS no information on Hanjour, the "certificate" was probably entered into the computer by an "associate". There is no record of what school he took lessons from in terms of either a commericial or private pilot's license.

It was fabricated apparently.

...

FormerLurker posted on 2010-07-21 1:01:57 ET Reply Trace Private Reply as well as the claim Hanjour couldn't fly anything, when in fact he had to have passed FAA tests giving him a commercial pilot license in 1999.

The clearest explanation is from Bernard,who saw the reality that regardless of how sloppy Hanjour looked, he still had enough knowledge and skill to be able to take an aircraft over mid-air and crash it at high speeds.

And your refutation of his known instructors that he was not competent and that he was turned down for a rental of a single engine Cessna is?

You can throw up all the smoke you want, but the testimony of his instructors is on record. Hanjour was not a competent pilot, regardless of any paper, and HAS NEVER EVIDENCED THE SKILLS necessary to have pulled off the feat of aerobatics with a Jumbo Jet that are attributed to him.

As well we have on record the doubts expressed by experienced professional pilots with a lot of hours behind the stick that they doubt that they could do what that known incompetent is alleged to have done.

Further, there is nothing which definitively puts Hanjour behind the stick - that is all supposition coming from an already discredited source the FBI, whose crime lab was caught falsifying evidence in literally thousands of cases.

Tainting Evidence: Inside the Scandals at the FBI Crime Lab ...

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-21   16:09:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#613. To: Original_Intent (#606)

So, produce a legitimate reference citing chapter and verse of where Hanjour allegedly got his license and under what circumstances or stand refuted.

WOW!!!!!!! You read page 135 of the link I provided (I wager no one did) .... that is where the discussion STARTS. Page 136 is the ACTUAL reference, first paragraph.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   16:10:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#614. To: FormerLurker (#611)

Wow, buckie getting caught in another lie. How NOT surprising...

ROTFL ... read post above.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   16:10:41 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#615. To: buckeroo (#609)

You can't explain documented testimony, mathematics and physics

Oh really there Mr. Shillster. Find ONE post where that would be true.

Neither you nor your goverment stooge AGitprop have ever responded to the simple fact I pointed out, where your fellow stooge Eager didn't even take the fact that the collisions between collapsing floors would be "inelastic" rather than "elastic", thus any momentum calculations where the notion that kinetic energy is conserved would be bogus, since kinetic energy is NOT conserved in an inelastic collion.

Now explain that.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   16:10:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#616. To: James Deffenbach (#607)

but did you ever imagine buckleunderoo was a Warmist BSer and a Official 911 Storyteller ??


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-21   16:11:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#617. To: FormerLurker (#615)

Find ONE post where that would be true.

You scenario that considers "freefall" at the top of the WTC to cite just one. I am still laffing about that idea.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   16:12:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#618. To: FormerLurker (#611)

Bullshit yourself Buckaroonie - I downloaded the report and checked the reference. No such report exists on page 135 of the pdf.

So, produce a legitimate reference citing chapter and verse of where Hanjour allegedly got his license and under what circumstances or stand refuted.

Wow, buckie getting caught in another lie. How NOT surprising...

Shocking isn't it?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-21   16:15:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#619. To: Rotara (#616)

but did you ever imagine buckleunderoo was a Warmist BSer and a Official 911 Storyteller ??

You forgot, he is also a "Peak Oiler." A trifecta of tard if you will.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   16:15:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#620. To: buckeroo (#609)

with AG's and my researched documentation about all of your silly conspiracies

What documentation?

Your gif file that incorrectly showed Flight 77 turning around over West Virginia, where the NTSB is on record and has reported that it flew over Ohio THEN turned around?

Provide the following documentation;

  1. Name of Hanjour's commercial flight school, and the name of his instructor
  2. Actual copy of Hanjour's commercial pilot's license
  3. Location and date of Hanjour's FAA commericial pilot's exam
  4. Name of the FAA examiner who administered the exam


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   16:16:04 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#621. To: FormerLurker (#615) (Edited)

Neither you nor your goverment stooge AGitprop have ever responded to the simple fact I pointed out, where your fellow stooge Eager didn't even take the fact that the collisions between collapsing floors would be "inelastic" rather than "elastic", thus any momentum calculations where the notion that kinetic energy is conserved would be bogus, since kinetic energy is NOT conserved in an inelastic collion.

Now explain that.

I already provided @post#1 and #3 links for the mathematics and pictures to clarify your silly ideas borrowed from a "conspiracy" website. Maybe here at post [edit: 5xx 6xx.. and still no proof that demolitions were used, IN-FUCKING-CREDIBLE!] you can learn to read and see pictures way back a couple of days ago.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   16:16:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#622. To: buckeroo (#617)

You scenario that considers "freefall" at the top of the WTC to cite just one. I am still laffing about that idea.

Oh, so you find it humorous that most people don't start counting from 80 when they are asked to count backwards from 110?

If you want to find the total free fall time of ANY object, you look at it's height, and use that to determine it's fall time using simple Newtonian equations.

Whatever junk science BS you're trying to sell here isn't going to fly.

You should learn to keep things like that to yourself until you've had time to do a bit of research, and you should ESPECIALLY not try to make yourself look smart by arguing these things with people who DO know about them.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   16:20:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#623. To: FormerLurker (#620)

Provide the following documentation;

1. Name of Hanjour's commercial flight school, and the name of his instructor 2. Actual copy of Hanjour's commercial pilot's license 3. Location and date of Hanjour's FAA commericial pilot's exam 4. Name of the FAA examiner who administered the exam

It doesn't matter .. Hanjour held certification from the FAA ... if you had read the authoritative link I provided, you would have the data. But you won't read... because and it is obvious ..... you are a lamer, pal.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   16:21:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#624. To: James Deffenbach (#619)

LOL. A 'Turdfecta'...


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-21   16:22:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#625. To: FormerLurker (#622)

If you want to find the total free fall time of ANY object, you look at it's height, and use that to determine it's fall time using simple Newtonian equations.

The moment of energy was at floors 81 and 96.... not 110. You lose.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   16:22:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#626. To: buckeroo (#621)

I already provided @post#1 and #3 links for the mathematics and pictures to clarify your silly ideas borrowed from a "conspiracy" website

I don't want silly images from bogus sources, I want you to explain to me why Eager treated the collisions between floors as elastic collisions rather than inelastic collions, which makes a WORLD of difference in the analysis.

You claim to know about math and physics, so go ahead and answer my question rather than referring to cartoon images of things that are irrelevant to the question.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   16:23:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#627. To: FormerLurker (#626)

bogus sources

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???????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????
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???????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????
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???????????????????????????????
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"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   16:27:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#628. To: FormerLurker (#626)

Eager

Give a link to this guy. I haven't researched his work or his background to date. He has not been a reference for any of my researched work on this thread.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   16:29:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#629. To: buckeroo (#625)

The moment of energy was at floors 81 and 96.... not 110. You lose.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Just admit that you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING at all in terms of physics.

So you are now on record as saying it doesn't matter how high something is, it'll ALL hit the ground as soon as the part of it that is broken hits the ground.

Let's see, if I build a tower of legos ten feet tall, take a baseball bat to the very bottom row of legos, the top will hit the floor at the exact time as the the bat hits the bottom.

Same if the tower were 100 feet tall, just take out the first foot, and the top along with the rest instantly hit the ground at the same time, eh?

Or hell, satellites should instantly fall out of space since there's nothing holding them up, right?

Perhaps, if I drop a coin from the top of the Empire State Building, it'll hit the ground as soon as I let it go, right?

What an idiot.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   16:29:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#630. To: buckeroo (#628)

Give a link to this guy. I haven't researched his work or his background to date. He has not been a reference for any of my researched work on this thread.

You and your pal AGovShill like to plaster his name and refer to his "work", stating that it's irrefutable, yet you don't know the first thing about it.

Again, caught bringing up things you have no f'in clue about.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   16:30:53 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#631. To: Original_Intent, ALL, *9-11* (#628) (Edited)

Eager

Give a link to this guy. I haven't researched his work or his background to date. He has not been a reference for any of my researched work on this thread.

Hey OI, now buck is claiming he's never heard of Eager.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   16:32:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#632. To: bucklingunder meltdown ALERT (#627)


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-21   16:34:46 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#633. To: FormerLurker (#630)

Produce one reference, anywhere... that I have used about a guy named "Eager."

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   16:35:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#634. To: FormerLurker, wudidiz, buckeroo, James Deffenbach, all (#626)

I already provided @post#1 and #3 links for the mathematics and pictures to clarify your silly ideas borrowed from a "conspiracy" website

I don't want silly images from bogus sources, I want you to explain to me why Eager treated the collisions between floors as elastic collisions rather than inelastic collions, which makes a WORLD of difference in the analysis.

You claim to know about math and physics, so go ahead and answer my question rather than referring to cartoon images of things that are irrelevant to the question.

And he can cite Eager all he wants but the fatal flaw in Dr. CIA's explanation for the collapse is that it does not take into account the core of the building. (The same CIA that produced the phony animation that showed flight 800 continuing to gain altitude with its nose blown off.)

Not only was the core made of heavy UL certified steel it was cross braced and filled with concrete. The collapse rate of the core is clearly shown in the video that wud posted as still standing after the floors around it had collapsed, but instead of tumbling as one would expect from an unstable and degraded structure it too collapses straight down.

The other problem with Eager's explanation was that it relied on the jet fuel for heating which even NIST now admits was all burned up in the first ten minutes.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-21   16:36:50 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#635. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, all (#631)

Eager

Give a link to this guy. I haven't researched his work or his background to date. He has not been a reference for any of my researched work on this thread.

Hey OI, now buck is claiming he's never heard of Eager.

So much for his supposed expertise on 911 when he does not even know the name of the principal creator of the Pancakes theory of building collapse.

Wadda' flapjack.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-21   16:39:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#636. To: Original_Intent (#634)

I have NEVER mentioned anything about "Eager" although you have repeatedly performed this.... as though your comment proves something about a professor.

Over 250 posts ago, I asked for your links on the guy.... as is usual practice... you can't produce squat.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   16:40:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#637. To: Original_Intent (#634)

The other problem with Eager's explanation was that it relied on the jet fuel for heating which even NIST now admits was all burned up in the first ten minutes.

Along with all that, the BIGGEST fundamental error is something that a freshman in Physics would see, and that is the fact that you CAN'T make believe kinetic energy is conserved by treating the collisions between floors as elastic collisions, they were inelastic, thus his entire analysis is bogus.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   16:45:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#638. To: Original_Intent (#635)

So much for his [buckeroo] supposed expertise on 911 when he does not even know the name of the principal creator of the Pancakes theory of building collapse.

You didn't even read the thread article or its source to include ALL of my later references.

He doesn't matter to me unless YOU can disprove the crush down theory or demonstrate that demolitions were actually used.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   16:45:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#639. To: buckeroo (#636)

Bullshit Buck.

I posted a half dozen links in response to your post, which was a response to mine talking about Eager's connections and likely government funding, illustrating the connections between M.I.T. and CIA.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-21   16:47:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#640. To: Original_Intent (#639)

I posted a half dozen links in response to your post, which was a response to mine talking about Eager's connections and likely government funding, illustrating the connections between M.I.T. and CIA.

Were you chit-chatting with someone else? Because I haven't referenced Eager at all. [hint: use your edit feature and browse "Eager" from any of my references other than yours and FL's confused mental states.]

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   16:50:34 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#641. To: FormerLurker (#637)

The other problem with Eager's explanation was that it relied on the jet fuel for heating which even NIST now admits was all burned up in the first ten minutes.

Along with all that, the BIGGEST fundamental error is something that a freshman in Physics would see, and that is the fact that you CAN'T make believe kinetic energy is conserved by treating the collisions between floors as elastic collisions, they were inelastic, thus his entire analysis is bogus.

True, and of course Eager knows better. His analysis only works for those ignorant of building construction, the amount of fuel available, and that the towers were basically a building within a building in their structural support. Eager's hypothesis only works on the outer layer which derived the majority of its structural support from the immensely strong inner core which he almost totally ignores in his supposed explanation.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-21   16:52:24 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#642. To: FormerLurker (#637)

Along with all that, the BIGGEST fundamental error is something that a freshman in Physics would see, and that is the fact that you CAN'T make believe kinetic energy is conserved by treating the collisions between floors as elastic collisions, they were inelastic, thus his entire analysis is bogus.

What do you think of this picture?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   16:52:30 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#643. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#642)

I think a picture is worth a thousand words.... is the above picture close to your explanation, too?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   16:58:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#644. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#643)

And here is another picture illustrating the concept:

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   17:05:13 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#645. To: AGAviator, abraxas, James Deffenbach, All (#377) (Edited)

The false statement that Flight 77's cabin door was not opened has been demonstrated to be a lie

Where did you get your info claiming the FDR did not show any movement for 40 hours and 11 flights prior to September 11? Wikipedia? I checked that source you posted as "proof" and it doesn't link to any quoted source which verifies the claim:

the status of the cockpit door, which showed no sign of having been opened during the hijacking or previous 40 hours, including 11 flights prior to the hijacking. [1]

That [1] reference is an NTSB pdf file and maybe I'm missing something but I don't see anything at all like that claim in it. Reference #1 in the Wiki site's footnotes is just an article by a guy with the Chinese-sounding last name, Chen, about Hani Hanjour. I thought that was amusing, since the word Han is Chinese for The Milky Way/The Heavenly River and a Hani (as like the words Saudi/Afghani/Iraqi) could indicate a person from a particular region -- iow, an earthling of the Milky Way.

Han(plane)jour -- en plein jour: French for "in broad day"

plane (prounounced PLAH-nay) is a Greek/Coptic term meaning "error, leading astray — "mind-bending"

Btw, you've never answered my question yet about why there is no recorded engine-noise in the background of those alleged calls you say were made from the planes that day. Can you asnwer it now, please?

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-21   17:05:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#646. To: GreyLmist, FormerLurker (#645)

FLT77 was a Boeing 757 -1 (circa,1991) not equipped with the cabin door sensors as with a 757 -3 (circa, 1997) AND there are no records of any upgrade.

More than that, FDR sensors not actively integrated are defaulted to "OFF" or "CLOSED."

We discussed this issue at great length on FL's "Flt77 cabin door" thread a few days ago.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   17:12:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#647. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#637) (Edited)

The other problem with Eager's explanation was that it relied on the jet fuel for heating which even NIST now admits was all burned up in the first ten minutes. Along with all that, the BIGGEST fundamental error is something that a freshman in Physics would see

You've been repeatedly challenged to show any false statements in Eagar's WTC remarks, CV or patents.

All you can do is smokescreen about elastic vs. inelastic collisions, which are completely unmentioned by Eagar.

Eagar does say the WTC Towers were not designed with a 90,000 liter Molotov cocktail to be ignited in them.

Your off-topic remarks about elastic vs inelastic collisions are typical Half Truther obfuscations.

Once again you fail to rebut anything Eagar actually has said or published or patented. You confine your Half Truther remarks to things he did not ever say.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   17:14:25 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#648. To: buckeroo (#644)

And here is another picture illustrating the concept:

Good one.

Trees are not buildings, and buildings are not trees.

Trees are 99% solid. Buildings are 95% air and nearly always will break when held sideways instead of vertically.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   17:16:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#649. To: GreyLmist (#645)

Where did you get your info claiming the FDR did not show any movement for 40 hours and 11 flights prior to September 11?

Actual studies with access to data and facts instead of internet k00ksites.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   17:17:34 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#650. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent (#647)

You've been repeatedly challenged to show any false statements in Eagar's WTC remarks, CV or patents.

I have done so NUMEROUS times here.

Does he or does he not use momentum as the basis for his analysis?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   17:17:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#651. To: AGAviator (#647)

Your off-topic remarks about elastic vs inelastic collisions are typical Half Truther obfuscations.

So now fundamental physics is in the realm of "Half Truther obfuscations", eh?

It's obvious you know NOTHING at all about physics. I'd be surprised if you even attended high school.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   17:18:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#652. To: buckeroo (#643)

I think a picture is worth a thousand words.... is the above picture close to your explanation, too?

Show me the analysis of the collapse times slick.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   17:19:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#653. To: buckeroo (#640)

I posted a half dozen links in response to your post, which was a response to mine talking about Eager's connections and likely government funding, illustrating the connections between M.I.T. and CIA.

Were you chit-chatting with someone else? Because I haven't referenced Eager at all. [hint: use your edit feature and browse "Eager" from any of my references other than yours and FL's confused mental states.]

You are being disengenuous again buck. My original post specifically mentioned Eager and MIT's connections to the CIA, and that much of what MIT does is under government funding.

So, you are simply now trying to plead ignorance. While in many respects it is a convincing plea not in this case.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-21   17:20:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#654. To: buckeroo, AGAviator, Original_Intent (#640)

Were you chit-chatting with someone else? Because I haven't referenced Eager at all. [hint: use your edit feature and browse "Eager" from any of my references other than yours and FL's confused mental states.]

Oh that's right buck, YOU didn't personally post anything about Eager, it was your butt buddy AGAviator who did, and each time he did, you would publically felate him and declare victory.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   17:21:52 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#655. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#620) (Edited)

Provide the following documentation;

1.Name of Hanjour's commercial flight school, and the name of his instructor 2.Actual copy of Hanjour's commercial pilot's license 3.Location and date of Hanjour's FAA commericial pilot's exam 4.Name of the FAA examiner who administered the exam

You've been busted claiming Hanjour did not have any pilot licenses and couldn't fly anything.

Now you're trying to cover up by demanding proof that he did, once it was shown to you that Hanjour did have a valid commercial pilot license in 1999.

You've been provided leads to the sources and links where you can do your own research.

I don't do research for Half Truthers. You either need to do your own, or admit you're incapable of it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   17:21:52 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#656. To: AGAviator (#655)

You've been busted claiming Hanjour did not have any pilot licenses and couldn't fly anything.

Provide the documentation that he did, and not just CLAIMS that he did, find a copy of the license, which should indicate the location and date of the FAA exam, along with the name of the FAA examiner.

His own instructors stated that he "COULD NOT FLY AT ALL".


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   17:24:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#657. To: FormerLurker (#651) (Edited)

It's obvious you know NOTHING at all about physics.

Unrebutted Half Truther Circlejerk Debunkings

(1) Two aircraft crashes released gigajoules of kinetic energy into the Twin Tower structures, and within 2 hours both structures collapsed from structural damage,
(2) A fireman is recorded on video saying a third WTC Building, WTC7, will be going down because the building is losing its structural stability from crash damage and uncontrolled fires,
(3) Over 30 calls from hijacked aircraft were logged including several by flight attendants giving seat numbers and descriptions of hijackers,
(4) The false statement that Flight 77's cabin door was not opened has been demonstrated to be a lie, as there is no evidence about any cabin door operation of that aircraft either during or before the September 11 flight,
(5) The lauded "peer review publication" of Tw00ferk00ks Steven Jones and Niels Harrit have been shown to be pay-to- publish articles for which $800 was given to a Dhubai publishing mill, with zero other peer reviewed articles
(6) The phrase "pull" as used by the demolition industry means "pull down with cables," and as used by firefighters means "pull back from site,"
(7) Flight 77 impacted a recently-renovated portion of the Pentagon which was not fully occupied and still had construction equipment in place, and
(8) It's a physical impossibility for a structure to both be flexible enough to absorb gigajoules of energy, move away from vertical centerline, return to vertical centerline on its own, then be rigid enough to provide a fixed platform for a rotating and falling top section to collapse outside the building footprint
(9) The actual free fall times of the WTC towers have been conclusively shown as 15+ seconds for 1 tower and 22+ seconds for the other, an order of magnitude above the claimed "free fall time" of 9.22 seconds which is supposed to be evidence of a controlled demolition
(10) Claimed molten steel evidence of thermite flowing from 80th floors is actually melted aluminum and burning offrice debris cooling on way down, with the aluminum not hot enough to remain melted as it falls a few hundred feet

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   17:26:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#658. To: AGAviator (#648)

Buildings are 95% air and nearly always will break when held sideways instead of vertically.

Where was EITHER building being "held sideways"? Although the top of South Tower DID tilt (where it SHOULD have slid off or tumbled over), the North Tower did NOT tilt, it just decided to drop straight down with NO horizontal forces at work.

So what "held it sideways", the hands of Allah or was it a UFO? Do you have video of that?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   17:27:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#659. To: AGAviator (#657)

Posting the same discredited BS OVER, and OVER, and OVER, eh shill? You are beginning to remind me of another shillster that used to haunt LP, his name was BeAChooser.

Any relation?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   17:28:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#660. To: AGAviator (#655)

I don't do research

That much is obvious.

It's ALSO obvious there IS no official record of Hanjour ever having a valid commercial pilot's license. That he had a piece of paper stating he did, according to reports, is NOT evidence that he did actually have one.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   17:30:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#661. To: AGAviator (#648)

Trees are 99% solid. Buildings are 95% air and nearly always will break when held sideways instead of vertically.

The WTC towers were built to SWAY in the wind. You don't seem to understand that even though I have pointed this out to you repeatedly. The upper floors swayed to such a degree in the wind that quite often on the upper floors people would complain of seasickness. They were not designed to to fall apart upon leaving the vertical plane. In fact, no building, even those not built to sway in the wind, is designed to fall apart upon leaving the vertical plane. And they quite often fall down sideways like trees in sections, and in some cases, the whole building. As matter of fact, that is the way most of them do fall in Earthquakes and Hurricanes, albeit in sections, not the whole building at once.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   17:30:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#662. To: AGAviator (#648)

Trees are not buildings, and buildings are not trees.

That's an outright lie! Everyone knows that the top of buildings are high in the sky just like trees!!! So there! ROTFL

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   17:31:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#663. To: buckeroo (#646)

FLT77 was a Boeing 757 -1 (circa,1991) not equipped with the cabin door sensors as with a 757 -3 (circa, 1997) AND there are no records of any upgrade.

More than that, FDR sensors not actively integrated are defaulted to "OFF" or "CLOSED."

We discussed this issue at great length on FL's "Flt77 cabin door" thread a few days ago.

No records doesn't exactly equate to no upgrade. There was reportedly a taped record, for instance, of ATC workers on duty that day which was said to have been destroyed by the management and lots of other records were said to have been lost from the disasters. I read most of that thread but thanks for the reply. I wasn't asking, though, about Flight 77 particularly but the claims made specifically about the previous 40 hours and 11 flights prior to 9/11. Btw, one of the ATC on duty that day, Pete Zalewski, was reportedly on duty during two other major air disasters. Egypt Air 990 was one. I'd have to research further for the other but I think it was a TWA flight, iirc.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-21   17:36:53 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#664. To: AGAviator (#655)

You've been busted

You are busted with most every post you make. Saying the WTC towers would fall apart if "held sideways." You sound like a kid, I know of no one that can "hold" a building, much less hold it sideways. And why is it that you think it would fall apart sideways anyway? Do you not think the same welds and bolts that hold the floors together vertically would work sideways as well? And even if the floors did not remain together because of shoddy construction, at the very least the core would. No one in their right mind would say the core of the towers would fall apart if sideways, expect you of course, but then again, you probably aren't in your right mind.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   17:39:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#665. To: FormerLurker (#654)

Oh that's right buck, YOU didn't personally post anything about Eager

That is correct. Why should I?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   17:40:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#666. To: AGAviator (#649)

Me: Where did you get your info claiming the FDR did not show any movement for 40 hours and 11 flights prior to September 11?

You: Actual studies with access to data and facts instead of internet k00ksites.

Link your sources, please, for that info. Wikipedia and the NTSB report cited there for that claim are invalidated as references for it, unless you can show otherwise.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-21   17:42:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#667. To: buckeroo (#665)

That is correct. Why should I?

Because you and your pal usually play tag team and post the same BS.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   17:44:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#668. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#653)

My original post specifically mentioned Eager and MIT's connections to the CIA, and that much of what MIT does is under government funding.

ROTFL....

Here is your ridulous reference @post#374 about your own awkward post:

Eager appears to have been brought on board to provide "credibility" to the preposterous Official Conspiracy Theory™.

What a crock of BS... no facts, no witnesses, no research ... pure unadultered BS intended to throw the thread off track.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   17:44:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#669. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#668)

... no facts, no witnesses, no research ... pure unadultered BS intended to throw the thread off track.

Finally admitting your strategy here, eh buck?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   17:47:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#670. To: FormerLurker (#667)

Because you and your pal usually play tag team and post the same BS.

I am not an airplane pilot. I am an degreed engineer though. So, I don't argue from AG's viewpoint and although he agrees with some of my posts, he doesn't discuss relevant issues from mine. Why are you so passionate about proving the incredible by pushing on a rope?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   17:49:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#671. To: buckeroo (#670)

I am an degreed engineer though.

Please list any bridges or anything you've had a hand in, I'll make sure I avoid them at all costs.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   17:52:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#672. To: AGAviator (#647)

You've been repeatedly challenged to show any false statements in Eagar's WTC remarks, CV or patents.

Any patents Eager might have are irrelevant. It is nothing more than an appeal to authority. What is relevant are the actual facts of the situation and the observed phenomena as compared to known data.

What a delightful disinformation graphic.

The fires did not reach 2,000 degrees F. Given the available fuel, even if we assume every drop burned in the building (which we know it did not) ten thousand gallons of jet fuel had, at most, the energy required to heat the buildings to about 536 degrees. Well below any of the critical threshholds. (As you well know the calculations have been previously posted.)

I like the way the article maximizes the quantity of fuel by saying 60,000 pounds instead of ten thousand gallons - of which all was gone in ten minutes and most of it outside the building.

I also love the weasel wording "damaging the upper floors" which is intended to make it sound like every upper level floor was damaged.

And the rigidity of the structure and the amount of elasticity is absolutely relevant as it tells how much resistance the structure is going to offer to an impact either from the jet, minimal effect, or the upper floors collapsing.

Again you show that all you have at your disposal is misrepresentations and false data.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-21   17:53:32 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#673. To: buckeroo (#670)

I am not an airplane pilot.

Oh and BTW, Eager is not a pilot either. He is a MIT professor who claims it was perfectly possible for the collapse to occur as it did, using momentum calculations to "prove" his point.

Thing is, those calculations are worthless since he made the fundamental error of treating the collisions as elastic, rather than inelastic.

As a "degreed engineer", you should know about those things. Apparently, you obtained your degree at the same school Hanjour acquired his "commercial pilot's license", the University of the inkjet printer.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   17:55:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#674. To: AGAviator (#649)

P.S. You avoided my question again about why there is no engine-noise in the background of what you assert are phone calls from the planes. How many times have you done that now? More importantly, why do you keep avoiding that question?

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-21   17:56:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#675. To: buckeroo (#670)

I am an degreed engineer

What sort of engineer, sanitation?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   17:56:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#676. To: Original_Intent (#672)

Again you show that all you have at your disposal is misrepresentations and false data.

What else can be expected from those in the 911 Liars Movement?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   18:00:26 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#677. To: Original_Intent (#672)

I also love the weasel wording "damaging the upper floors" which is intended to make it sound like every upper level floor was damaged.

Where have you seen that?

The impact of the aircraft seriously weakened about 6 floors around the adjacent impact (81st and 96th floors) therein causing the upper floors to fall because of the lack of support.

As always O_I... you blow shit out your keyboard beyond your ass.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   18:02:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#678. To: FormerLurker (#675)

I design high speed data networks, MSEE.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   18:03:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#679. To: FormerLurker (#673)

... it was perfectly possible for the collapse to occur as it did

Yes, the collapse occurred... I haven't read anything about Eager.

@post#644, I provided a picture of the idea..... what is your comment?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   18:08:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#680. To: buckeroo (#677)

The impact of the aircraft seriously weakened about 6 floors around the adjacent impact (81st and 96th floors) therein causing the upper floors to fall because of the lack of support.

Misleading as always buckster.

The planes, based on the angle of impact, did not critically damage the primary load bearing structure the immensely strong core which consisted of heavy cross braced steel beams and a LOT of concrete. This is particularly noticeable on the plane hitting the South Tower which enters at an angle near the center but the nose exits in the outside corner where the big orange fireball, which was most of the planes fuel load burning outstide the building, occurs. It is doubtful that it could have damaged more than one or two of the 47 heavy steel crossbraced support columns in the primary load bearing structure i.e., the core.

I will say that your command of illogic is stunning.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-21   18:15:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#681. To: Original_Intent (#680)

Where did you find that information? Link it for the thread to see.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   18:17:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#682. To: AGAviator (#647) (Edited)

Eagar does say the WTC Towers were not designed with a 90,000 liter Molotov cocktail to be ignited in them.

Eager is also a liar, since there were NOT 90,000 liters (23,775 gallons) of jet fuel in either tower. At most there were 10,000 gallons in each plane prior to impact, and much of it was spent in the initial fireballs outside the towers.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   18:18:30 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#683. To: buckeroo (#678)

I design high speed data networks, MSEE.

To get a EE, you need to take some courses in physics. Collisions and momentum are part of freshman year physics.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   18:19:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#684. To: Original_Intent (#680)

It is doubtful that it could have damaged more than one or two of the 47 heavy steel crossbraced support columns in the primary load bearing structure i.e., the core.

Where did you read that "it is doubtful?" I want some facts to support your well-researched post.

You sound like hyperbole to me.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   18:20:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#685. To: FormerLurker (#683)

Now, that you want to describe backgrounds ... what is yours besides a Phd in Spin-o-logy with a minor in publick BS?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   18:23:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#686. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#647)

Your off-topic remarks about elastic vs inelastic collisions are typical Half Truther obfuscations.

Perhaps it wasn't Eager who spoke about momentum and kinetic energy, it was YOU who brought that up in one of your earlier posts, one related to Eager...

From Post 414:Flight 77 Cockpit Door Never Opened During 9/11 “Hijack”

floor-by-floor pancaking collapses introduce momentum and kinetic energy transfers


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   18:28:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#687. To: FormerLurker (#671)

I am an degreed engineer though.

Please list any bridges or anything you've had a hand in, I'll make sure I avoid them at all costs.

I highly doubt he is a college graduate engineer, he probably means a certificate he got for attending a "Sanitation Engineering" class mandated by the company he use to work for before he got a job being a stooge on the Internet.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   18:29:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#688. To: buckeroo (#685)

Now, that you want to describe backgrounds ... what is yours besides a Phd in Spin-o-logy with a minor in publick BS?

None of your business. Let's just say I'm more educated than you.

If you're so educated on networks, can you tell me what the difference is between TCP/IP and UDP/IP? What part of the protocol stack does the TCP component reside, and where does the IP component reside?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   18:30:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#689. To: RickyJ (#687)

I highly doubt he is a college graduate engineer, he probably means a certificate he got for attending a "Sanitation Engineering" class mandated by the company he use to work for before he got a job being a stooge on the Internet.

That'd be my first impression as well.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   18:32:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#690. To: buckeroo (#678)

I design high speed data networks, MSEE.

You plug cables up, I figured. LOL!

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   18:32:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#691. To: FormerLurker (#688)

None of your business.

Don't you want to share your authenticated credentials beyond believing in government conspiracies to razzle&dazzle us with your expertise that is non-factual and based upon speculation and BS?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   18:33:17 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#692. To: FormerLurker (#688)

TCP/IP and UDP/IP?

Sure .. if you use that crap for publick networks... UDP is at a lower level of the stack... it involves no retransmissions based on packet errors .... it is fast because it is a lower layer.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   18:35:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#693. To: buckeroo (#691)

My credentials are irrelevant when what I say can be easily confirmed by any freshman year textbook in physics.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   18:35:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#694. To: Original_Intent (#653)

You are being disengenuous again buck.

No! You don't mean it!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   18:37:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#695. To: FormerLurker (#693)

My credentials are irrelevant when what I say can be easily confirmed by any freshman year textbook in physics.

AWESOME! Are you saying, therefore, you failed kindergarten because ... so far ... thread after thread after thread... you can't conform anything based on fact.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   18:37:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#696. To: FormerLurker (#654) (Edited)

Oh that's right buck, YOU didn't personally post anything about Eager, it was your butt buddy AGAviator who did, and each time he did, you would publically felate him and declare victory.

LOL! One of the reasons buck wound up on ye olde clown filter, all that lying about "winning" when he has done nothing but take things out of context and say that up is down and black is white. We call that lying where I'm from.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   18:38:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#697. To: buckeroo (#677)

The impact of the aircraft seriously weakened about 6 floors around the adjacent impact (81st and 96th floors) therein causing the upper floors to fall because of the lack of support.

Please give your degree back to whatever cracker box university you got it from, it isn't worth the paper it is printed on.

The lower floors were not holding up the upper floors you moron! The central core was holding them up, which sustained very little damage.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   18:40:20 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#698. To: FormerLurker (#671)

Please list any bridges or anything you've had a hand in, I'll make sure I avoid them at all costs.

And he needs to list any skyscraper he might have ever done a drawing for or anything. They would be more places to avoid.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   18:43:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#699. To: buckeroo, ALL (#692)

TCP/IP and UDP/IP?

Sure .. if you use that crap for publick networks... UDP is at a lower level of the stack... it involves no retransmissions based on packet errors .... it is fast because it is a lower layer.

BUSTED, now I KNOW you are a LIAR.

TCP stands for Transport Control Protocol, whereas UDP stands for Universal Datagram Protocol.

IP stands for Internet Protocol.

UDP is a connectionless protocol that simply broadcasts data packets to specified destinations, whereas TCP utilizes connections between two addresses and verifies data integrity.

IP is a lower layer protocol which routes traffic between addresses regardless of upper layer protocol.

TCP and UDP both reside in the Transport Layer of the OSI protocol stack, whereas IP resides in the Network Layer.

Internet Protocol Suite


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   18:44:30 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#700. To: buckeroo (#695)

AWESOME! Are you saying, therefore, you failed kindergarten because ... so far ... thread after thread after thread... you can't conform anything based on fact.

Yeah, I failed kindergarten, just like you have a MSEE.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   18:45:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#701. To: RickyJ (#687)

I highly doubt he is a college graduate engineer, he probably means a certificate he got for attending a "Sanitation Engineering" class mandated by the company he use to work for

before he got a job being a stooge on the Internet.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   18:49:21 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#702. To: buckeroo, ALL (#692)

TCP/IP and UDP/IP?

Sure .. if you use that crap for publick networks...

Oh and BTW there Mr. MSEE, the very web browser you are using uses TCP/IP, where HTTP is the higher layer application protocol.

TCP/IP model


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   18:49:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#703. To: FormerLurker (#592)

Hanjour didn't just hijack the plane over Washington and dive it into the Pentagon, he FLEW it from Ohio to Washington, descended into a precision turn, and FLEW it at treetop level for a mile or so at 400+ mph then effectively LANDED it without touching the ground, ie. he brought it down to 20 feet off the deck while flying it at 530 MPH, and FLEW right into the Pentagon wall at ground level, with his nose level.

when one rules out the improbable only the impossible is left and if they (the pushers of the official fairy tale) expect us to believe the impossibility that hanjour flew that plane then cough up the video of hanjour getting on that plane and the video of that plane hitting the pentagon. seeing how they won't because they can't, whether hanjour could fly or not is moot; as well if hanjour had a real commercial pilots license is moot.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-21   18:51:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#704. To: buckeroo (#692)

TCP/IP and UDP/IP?

Sure .. if you use that crap for publick networks..

Crap? Public networks?

Are you insane dude? Or do you think we all were just born yesterday?

TCP/IP is used on MOST public networks everywhere in the freaking WORLD!

It is merely a protocol for data communications, not crap.

By the way, in America we don't put a 'k' on the end of public. Just thought you would like to know.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   18:52:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#705. To: buckeroo (#692)

TCP/IP and UDP/IP?

Sure .. if you use that crap for publick networks

Yeah, I guess the world is wrong and you are right...

From Analysis of HTTP Performance problems

HTTP uses TCP as a transport layer.

BTW, did they teach you how to spell in college?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   18:54:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#706. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#702)

HTTP

You asked about UDP vs. TCP.... now, you wiggle around HTTP ... my Gawd man... can't you shut the fuck up... as you don't know how to pose a question much less discuss any details....

However, this is a thread about the demolition theory of the WTC ..... and it is somewhat refreshing to see you know how to use Google to find a link.... and paste that data into a post here on a chit-chat channel. I must give you some credit, therefore........ ROTFL

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   18:55:13 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#707. To: IRTorqued (#703)

when one rules out the improbable only the impossible is left and if they (the pushers of the official fairy tale) expect us to believe the impossibility that hanjour flew that plane then cough up the video of hanjour getting on that plane and the video of that plane hitting the pentagon. seeing how they won't because they can't, whether hanjour could fly or not is moot; as well if hanjour had a real commercial pilots license is moot.

They've had close to 9 years to cough up the videos that had clear unobstructed views of the alleged approach to the Pentagon and the impact, yet have not delivered.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   18:56:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#708. To: buckeroo (#706)

You asked about UDP vs. TCP.... now, you wiggle around HTTP

Do you KNOW what HTTP is, Mr. MSEE?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   18:57:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#709. To: buckeroo (#706)

can't you shut the fuck up.

My suggestion to you is that YOU STFU before you embarrass yourself further.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   18:58:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#710. To: RickyJ (#704)

Crap? Public networks?

Are you insane dude? Or do you think we all were just born yesterday?

TCP/IP is used on MOST public networks everywhere in the freaking WORLD!

Oh, but Mr. MSEE bucko was totally unaware of that little fact...

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   18:59:32 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#711. To: buckeroo (#706)

You asked about UDP vs. TCP

Yes, and you DID NOT know the difference, nor what either of them were..

ROTFL!!!!


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   19:00:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#712. To: James Deffenbach (#698)

And he needs to list any skyscraper he might have ever done a drawing for or anything. They would be more places to avoid.

Yes, they'd more than likely have "lower floors supporting the upper floors", and be wobbling just waiting for any horizontal force to exert some "tension" to bring them down.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   19:05:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#713. To: FormerLurker (#709)

YOU STFU before you embarrass yourself further.

Do you have any details about the demolition theory of the WTC beyond mere Internet speculation,innuendo, crap, BS, hear-say, who-dunnit based on a conspiracy website ... any of the following will do: who, what, when where and why ....... also include how.

I am interested in a mathematical presentation of your conspiracy theory, as I performed (in a link @post#1) that supports your altered view from fact. Feel free to show any links or data to PROVE that demolitions were employed by anybody from around the world.

You see, there is a problem with your viewpoint beyond the hyperbole, the suspicions and the doubts, you can't PROVE diddly-squat!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   19:08:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#714. To: FormerLurker (#712)

Yes, they'd more than likely have "lower floors supporting the upper floors", and be wobbling just waiting for any horizontal force to exert some "tension" to bring them down.

I guess with one of his Puff the Magic Dragon would come along and blow it down. The Easter Bunny and Santa Claus have retired from skyscraper demolition I think.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   19:12:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#715. To: buckeroo (#713) (Edited)

I don't need to converse with a proven liar. You lied about your credentials, where ANY halfwit familiar with networks KNOWS that the entire Internet is based upon TCP/IP, and any college graduate in Electrical Engineering would know where each part of that protocol pair reside in terms of the OSI stack.

You appear to be totally clueless about the fact web browsers utilize HTTP (Hype Text Transmission Protocol) which USES TCP/IP in order to connect to websites.

Yet you claim to have a MSEE, and specialize in high speed networks.

You are TOTALLY BUSTED there bucko.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   19:13:53 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#716. To: FormerLurker (#699)

You are always off-topic, slimy. I gave the brief about the ACTUAL technical differentiation of TCP and UDP (which you asked for) ... not some irrelevant literal translation.

TCP stands for Transport Control Protocol, whereas UDP stands for Universal Datagram Protocol.

ROTFL...

As always pulling the thread off track because you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   19:16:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#717. To: FormerLurker (#715)

You appear to be totally clueless about the fact web browsers utilize HTTP (Hype Text Transmission Protocol) which USES TCP/IP in order to connect to websites.

That has nothing to do with your original question... you asked the difference of UDP and TCP ... not HTTP...

You can't even stay on track of your own silly questions.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   19:18:17 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#718. To: buckeroo (#716)

I gave the brief about the ACTUAL technical differentiation of TCP and UDP (which you asked for) ... not some irrelevant literal translation.

You stated that UDP is at a lower layer than TCP, which is flat out wrong. You did NOT provide ANY definition of either one, and neglected to answer where IP resided in terms of the protocol stack, and where TCP resided.

You were partially right about UDP not requiring retransmission, although that is not ALWAYS true as there are confirmation of delivery algorithms which can detect whether a packet has been received or not, and retransmit if necessary.

You also suggested that both TCP/IP and UDP/IP are "crap", and not used on public networks, where the entire Internet utilizes IP, and TCP/IP is the most common of all protocols, an example of which is that web browsers use it for their communications between client and web site.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   19:22:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#719. To: buckeroo (#717)

you asked the difference of UDP and TCP ... not HTTP...

You stated that TCP/IP is a "crap" protocol which is not used on public networks, where HTTP USES TCP/IP.

HTTP is what web browsers such as Internet Explorer and Firefox use for their communications between the PC and a remote website.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   19:25:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#720. To: buckeroo (#716)

As always pulling the thread off track because you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.

I just handed you your ass, now you're claiming victory. How surprising...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   19:25:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#721. To: FormerLurker (#719)

You stated that TCP/IP is a "crap" protocol which is not used on public networks, where HTTP USES TCP/IP.

Here is my post based on your question, genius:

TCP/IP and UDP/IP?

Sure .. if you use that crap for publick networks... UDP is at a lower level of the stack... it involves no retransmissions based on packet errors .... it is fast because it is a lower layer.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   19:28:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#722. To: FormerLurker (#720)

You can't read, FL. Have you ever tried using your browser capabilities to increase the font size for your viewing pleasure?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   19:29:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#723. To: buckeroo (#721)

TCP/IP and UDP/IP?

Sure .. if you use that crap for publick networks... UDP is at a lower level of the stack... it involves no retransmissions based on packet errors .... it is fast because it is a lower layer.

Well there Mr. MSEE, UDP is NOT at a lower layer than TCP, so you are not only wrong, but are lying about being an expert in network communications, and the idea of you having a MSEE is a joke.

And you DID imply that BOTH TCP/IP and UDP/IP are "crap".


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   19:31:24 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#724. To: buckeroo (#722)

You can't read, FL. Have you ever tried using your browser capabilities to increase the font size for your viewing pleasure?

Take your own advice pal.

Here are my original questions, I'll even mark them in bold so that you can see them better;

If you're so educated on networks, can you tell me what the difference is between TCP/IP and UDP/IP? What part of the protocol stack does the TCP component reside, and where does the IP component reside?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   19:33:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#725. To: FormerLurker (#723)

UDP is NOT at a lower layer than TCP

That is not true... just as the entire model of the stack is not implemented in reality.

Look,,,, create a thread about stacks... invite me. Lets review your question there.

This thread is not about UDP or TCP or HTTP ... or proprietary Internet stuff for transmission protocol.

This thread is about the demolition theory of the WTC...... can you stay on topic?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   19:38:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#726. To: FormerLurker (#724)

What part of the protocol stack does the TCP component reside, and where does the IP component reside?

It was Adam and Eve that ate the apple just after God stole a rib....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   19:40:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#727. To: buckeroo (#725)

Me: UDP is NOT at a lower layer than TCP

You: That is not true... just as the entire model of the stack is not implemented in reality.

LIE.

TCP and UDP are BOTH located in the OSI Transport Layer. They reside on TOP of the Network Layer, which is where IP (Internet Protocol) resides.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   19:41:30 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#728. To: buckeroo (#726) (Edited)

Admit that you lied, you do NOT have a MSEE, and at most you install and service wall plugs or replace modems for some provider such as Verizon.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   19:43:26 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#729. To: FormerLurker (#727)

TCP and UDP are BOTH located in the OSI Transport Layer.

Why are you fucking around? Of course they are. So what? Many posts ago I gave you the technical difference of them, too. Not some literal content that you happened to find somewhere.

So, because you have continuously lost every post you make on this thread and others based on true research and discovery ... you want to argue about the OSI model, now? On a thread about the demolition theory of the WTC?

What are you a FULL_FLEDGED_FUCKING_ASSHOLE?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   19:50:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#730. To: buckeroo (#725)

or proprietary Internet stuff for transmission protocol.

Oh and BTW, what I posted are widespread and widely known basic facts about network protocols, details of which are published in the form of RFC's for ANYONE who desires to implement firmware, software, or hardware dealing with networks.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   19:51:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#731. To: FormerLurker (#728)

Admit that you lied, you do NOT have a MSEE, and at most you install and service wall plugs or replace modems for some provider such as Verizon.

I would like to see him admit that too, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   19:51:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#732. To: FormerLurker (#728)

You have continuously retracted your lies to me... thread after thread ... post after post.

You should backoff, FL..... I have no axe to grind with you.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   19:52:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#733. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#660)

It's ALSO obvious there IS no official record of Hanjour ever having a valid commercial pilot's license. That he had a piece of paper stating he did, according to reports, is NOT evidence that he did actually have one.

A staff of owner/operators of a flight school, whose livelihood depends on making sure aircraft renters have valid FAA certification, trumps your anonymous internet k00kblather.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   19:54:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#734. To: FormerLurker (#730)

what I posted are widespread and widely known basic facts about network protocols, details of which are published in the form of RFC's for ANYONE who desires to implement firmware, software, or hardware dealing with networks.

Yeah, this great news on a thread concerning the demolition theory of the WTC.... your knowledge base really supports how someone snck into the WTC (three different buildings) and set up the controlled demolitions to kill thousands of People.

Thank you for the contribution..... I am sure others see you as a TOTAL ASSHOLE.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   19:56:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#735. To: buckeroo (#732)

You should backoff, FL..... I have no axe to grind with you.

huh?

Yes you do. You have an axe to grind with all of us "conspiracy kooks."

That's why you post non-stop calling us kooks for thinking the WTC towers were blown up and the US government is covering it up.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   19:57:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#736. To: buckeroo (#729)

Why are you fucking around? Of course they are.

Why are YOU fucking around. You claim to have a MSEE, specializing in "designing high speed networks", yet you don't know the first thing about fundamental network protocols.

Just several posts ago, and in your initial response, you stated that UDP is at a lower layer than TCP, where that is flat out wrong, claimed that I am wrong, and NOW you state "of course they are" where I stated that TCP and UDP are both in the same layer.

You don't know jack, and that's quite obvious.

I HAVE presented sufficient facts and documentation LONG AGO on this thread in terms of the collapse, where not only is the "official explanation" shown to be totally ridiculous, but impossible.

Yet you've danced around, spread false info, made outrageous claims, accused us of being "government agents", accused us of being "half truthers", and have been wrong in pretty much EVERYTHING you've said.

So take your own advice, STOP fucking around here.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   19:58:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#737. To: AGAviator (#733)

A staff of owner/operators of a flight school, whose livelihood depends on making sure aircraft renters have valid FAA certification, trumps your anonymous internet k00kblather.

Oh so all of his other instructors were wrong, and only the one who somewhat supports YOUR view is the fountain of truth. What a jackass you are.

Again, find a copy of the FAA commercial license and put this matter to rest.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:00:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#738. To: buckeroo (#732)

You have continuously retracted your lies to me... thread after thread ... post after post.

Another one of you lies bucko.

You should backoff, FL..... I have no axe to grind with you.

Uh huh, that's why you've been blasting me with false accusations and making false claims about what I've said.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:02:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#739. To: RickyJ (#731)

I would like to see him admit that too, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

If I ever saw a significant admission of truth from EITHER of those two shills, bucko and AGovShill, I'd be speechless for quite some time.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:06:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#740. To: FormerLurker (#736)

You claim to have a MSEE, specializing in "designing high speed networks", yet you don't know the first thing about fundamental network protocols.

Yes I do.

Those protocol layers that you affectionately reference are non-realtime. Those layers are a model of an Internet or Intranet assuming you don't need real time speed as in graphic imaging from a source location to a destination.

We don't use the model as it is layered with unnecessary bit fields and defined fields that take time (real time)... it is fine for publick networks where you hope and pray your application catches the errors and re-transmits if and only if it has time within your 8088 based DOS stuff.

Please stop it. We want to see your views based on fact for the demolitions, not a casual survey of what you think is the total scope of information transmission.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   20:11:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#741. To: FormerLurker (#736)

STOP fucking around here.

Why are you so defensive? I created the thread. I based FACT and mathematical models on the collapse (to include pictures) from time to time based upon the same FACTS.

What have you done? Look at your own self, pal.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   20:14:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#742. To: FormerLurker (#724)

If you're so educated on networks, can you tell me what the difference is between TCP/IP and UDP/IP? What part of the protocol stack does the TCP component reside, and where does the IP component reside?

Niggaz Love to Keep it Real--Real Dumb

Link to Chris Rock video and has some language which would be offensive to some.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   20:17:52 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#743. To: buckeroo (#741)

You wouldn't know a fact if it walked up and smacked you in the face.

You can't even speak proper english.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-21   20:19:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#744. To: buckeroo (#740)

Those protocol layers that you affectionately reference are non-realtime. Those layers are a model of an Internet or Intranet assuming you don't need real time speed as in graphic imaging from a source location to a destination.

We don't use the model as it is layered with unnecessary bit fields and defined fields that take time (real time)... it is fine for publick networks where you hope and pray your application catches the errors and re-transmits if and only if it has time within your 8088 based DOS stuff.

Oh man, are you THAT stupid you think there aren't people who actually KNOW this stuff?

EVERY modern computer operating system utilizes the OSI model for it's communications, and EVERY Internet router or device uses that model as well.

It INCLUDES the Physical Layer, which includes the physical Ethernet network and devices, network adapters, along with other topologies such as FDDI, FIOS, and various others.

An old fashioned network model used by older IBM mainframes is SNA, which is Systems Network Architecture. Anything else in terms of current day network communications is part of the OSI model.

That you bring up 8088 based systems on old PC's running DOS is a hoot, as they were NOT using the OSI model, they used exactly what YOU are describing as being "better", custom applications based upon nothing but a proprietary network API, most commonly Banyan VINES or Novell Netware.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:22:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#745. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#744)

Oh man, are you THAT stupid you think there aren't people who actually KNOW this stuff?

Can you put your post into layman's terms? So we can see precisely what bs buck is trying to feed us this time?


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-21   20:26:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#746. To: FormerLurker (#744)

I have asked you to stop the bilge... as you don't know SHIT about REAL-TIME systmes.

Please stop it and get back on track for the subject of the thread. Or are you afraid to lose another post.... afterall it easy to provide unsupported data about any of your posts, isn't it?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   20:26:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#747. To: buckeroo (#740)

Those protocol layers that you affectionately reference are non-realtime. Those layers are a model of an Internet or Intranet assuming you don't need real time speed as in graphic imaging from a source location to a destination.

Describe to me what would be involved in bypassing the protocol stack on Microsoft Windows, and writing directly to the Ethernet card.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:28:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#748. To: buckeroo (#746)

I have asked you to stop the bilge... as you don't know SHIT about REAL-TIME systmes.

Describe to me a "real-time" system. Which operating system are you talking about?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:29:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#749. To: buckeroo (#746)

you don't know SHIT

Hell buck, you don't even know the basics of network communications. Yet I'm the one who doesn't know shit, eh?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:30:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#750. To: FormerLurker (#744)

FDDI

You are so deceptive about your own fucked-upped posts that you use FDDI. No one supports that old crap anymore. You better learn more about GOOGLE than confronting me on state-of-the-art technology, pal.

Still you are off course.... you can't produce FACTS on the demolition theory of the WTC .... you spin off into some sort of FUCKED-UPPED SILL-ASSED-CLOWN playing on the Internet.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   20:30:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#751. To: FormerLurker (#748)

Describe to me a "real-time" system. Which operating system are you talking about?

Yes sir!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   20:31:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#752. To: FormerLurker (#747)

Describe to me what would be involved in bypassing the protocol stack on Microsoft Windows, and writing directly to the Ethernet card.

Do you prefer "C" or "assembly language" within the MSOS requiring a device driver? If so, MS has changed their requirements over the years for increasing security reasons. Do you want the forward or backward dumps of the interrupts?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   20:34:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#753. To: wudidiz (#745)

Can you put your post into layman's terms? So we can see precisely what bs buck is trying to feed us this time?

Microsoft Windows, from Windows 95 on up, uses the OSI model for it's network communications. Linux has used it for as long as I know, and its big brother UNIX has used it for as long as the Internet has existed.

Buck is trying to say he's smarter than Microsoft, Bell Labs, and DARPA (who invented the Internet), and utilizes his own custom communications which somehow bypasses everything those operating systems implement in terms of network communications.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:36:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#754. To: buckeroo (#740)

Those protocol layers that you affectionately reference are non-realtime

They can be, depending on the OS and the TCP/IP implementation. Realtime systems have nothing to do with speed of the network, it has to do with knowing precisely how much time an operation takes and completing the operation in exactly the same amount of time, every time. Realtime systems don't need to be fast, they can be, but that is not required, they just need to be precise with the timing.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   20:37:13 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#755. To: buckeroo (#750)

You are so deceptive about your own fucked-upped posts that you use FDDI. No one supports that old crap anymore.

I listed it as a network topology. You haven't listed ANYTHING, you've just bragged about things that aren't true, and made idiotic remarks which you hope will fool most people.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:37:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#756. To: FormerLurker (#753)

Buck is trying to say he's smarter than Microsoft, Bell Labs, and DARPA (who invented the Internet), and utilizes his own custom communications which somehow bypasses everything those operating systems implement in terms of network communications.

Oh the horror, more magick.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   20:38:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#757. To: RickyJ, buckeroo (#754)

REAL real-time systems are interrupt driven, versus being driven by a scheduler. I'm sure buck knows all about that, right buck?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:39:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#758. To: FormerLurker (#747)

If he wants a real-time system, he better bypass MS Windows too.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   20:40:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#759. To: FormerLurker, wudidiz, buckaroo (#753)

Buck is trying to say he's smarter than Microsoft, Bell Labs, and DARPA (who invented the Internet), and utilizes his own custom communications which somehow bypasses everything those operating systems implement in terms of network communications.

Didn't you know that Buck is the Alpha and the Omega of the Internet?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-21   20:40:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#760. To: FormerLurker (#753)

Everyone uses some model. But the OS for MS requires a device driver for the OS. It has changed over the years.

Are wiggling again, my friend?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   20:40:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#761. To: buckeroo (#752)

Do you prefer "C" or "assembly language" within the MSOS requiring a device driver? If so, MS has changed their requirements over the years for increasing security reasons. Do you want the forward or backward dumps of the interrupts?

I'm asking about the design, not the programming language. Tell me what you need to do down at the driver level in terms of real-time communications, and how you would get the Ethernet card to behave the way you want it to.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:41:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#762. To: buckeroo (#760) (Edited)

Everyone uses some model. But the OS for MS requires a device driver for the OS. It has changed over the years.

EVERY modern operating system implements the OSI model.

Tell me what the network driver interface is called in Windows.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:42:30 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#763. To: RickyJ (#758)

If he wants a real-time system, he better bypass MS Windows too.

Yep. That's why I asked him what operating system he would use.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:43:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#764. To: abraxas (#759)

Didn't you know that Buck is the Alpha and the Omega of the Internet?

LOL, yeah, according to him at least...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:45:20 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#765. To: FormerLurker (#757) (Edited)

REAL real-time systems are interrupt driven, versus being driven by a scheduler.

In common publick computers (ISA, PCI, ePCI, cPCI, VME etc,) determines the LEVEL of the interrupt from a device and the device driver determines its associated scheduling within the OS.

Windows which you apparently love, is non-real time.... VxWorks is .. and so are others... but who said that I design device drivers for your popular systems?

[edit: LynxOS is the fastest RT system under Sun responding to interrupts well below 8MS on average]

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   20:45:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#766. To: FormerLurker (#762)

EVERY modern operating system implements the OSI model.

Not true... genius. Only the publick OS's perform that function.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   20:47:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#767. To: buckeroo (#740)

BTW buck, did you know that MS Windows based PC's can handle GIGABITS of data per second over the standard OSI layers as implemented within the operating system?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:48:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#768. To: buckeroo (#766)

Not true... genius. Only the publick OS's perform that function.

Name me a modern day real-time operating system which does NOT implement the OSI model.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:49:23 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#769. To: buckeroo (#713) (Edited)

Do you have any details about the demolition theory of the WTC beyond mere Internet speculation,innuendo, crap, BS, hear-say, who-dunnit based on a conspiracy website

Somehow ***they*** got TCP/IP and HTTP to ignite between 10 and 100 tons of nanothermite without leaving a trace.

Maybe we've been asking them to provide proof from the wrong places. Instead of wanting the slightest shred of det cord, or detonators, or appropriate amounts of barium nitrate in the debris and residue, perhaps a stack dump of "their" supercomputers will provide the evidence we're all seeking....

MUAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   20:49:46 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#770. To: FormerLurker (#768)

My RT kernal. I deliver some of the fastest response times under the Sun.... it is proprietary.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   20:50:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#771. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#769)

Somehow ***they*** got TCP/IP and HTTP to ignite between 10 and 100 tons of nanothermite without leaving a trace.

And another spin-o-machine by FL ... right now.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   20:52:50 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#772. To: AGAviator (#769)

10 and 100 tons of nanothermite without leaving a trace.

It wasn't that much, and it did leave plenty of traces.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   20:53:17 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#773. To: buckeroo (#765)

In common publick computers (ISA, PCI, ePCI, cPCI, VME etc,) determines the LEVEL of the interrupt from a device and the device driver determines its associated scheduling within the OS.

Did they teach you how to spell in college? An occasional mistake is nothing to really hammer you about, but you continuously spell the word "public" as "publick". Are you a US citizen, and is English your first language?

You forgot to list PCIe(PCI Express), which is the modern replacement for PCI.

Anyways, VME based architecture usually isn't a PUBLIC computer, it's usually used in military applications, medical equipment, or space based systems.

And yes, VxWorks is one of the preferred operating systems for that sort of hardware. Did you know that VxWorks ALSO implements the OSI model?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:55:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#774. To: FormerLurker (#767)

did you know that MS Windows based PC's can handle GIGABITS of data per second over the standard OSI layers as implemented within the operating system?

Sure... but that isn't REAL-TIME, Sherlock....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   20:55:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#775. To: buckeroo (#771)

And another spin-o-machine by FL ... right now.

Uh huh, just keep patting yourself on the back there bucko.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:56:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#776. To: FormerLurker (#773)

And yes, VxWorks is one of the preferred operating systems for that sort of hardware.

WOW... where are your credentials? What about LynxOS?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   20:57:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#777. To: buckeroo (#774)

Sure... but that isn't REAL-TIME, Sherlock....

REAL-TIME systems are not used for graphics work there bucko, at least not if the graphics work is the primary concern. If you were talking about military applications and what-not, in regards to monitoring critical parameters, but then again those things STILL utilize the OSI model.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:58:17 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#778. To: FormerLurker (#775)

Uh huh, just keep patting yourself on the back there bucko.

No ... FL... you have driven this thread into the ground... you report nothing based on fact... you have lied to me several times. And you have admitted the same.

But WAIT... THERE IS SO MUCH MUCH MORE! You have yet to provide any FACT or evidence about demolitions on 9/11. You have failed 4um. You lose, pal.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   21:00:30 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#779. To: buckeroo (#776)

WOW... where are your credentials? What about LynxOS?

Never worked with LynxOS, have worked with VxWorks.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   21:01:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#780. To: buckeroo (#778)

you have lied to me several times.

Oh yeah? Where? Point it out.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   21:01:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#781. To: FormerLurker (#777)

REAL-TIME systems are not used for graphics work there bucko, at least not if the graphics work is the primary concern.

ROTFL ... where did you dredge this idea up? On the Internet or between your butt cheeks?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   21:01:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#782. To: FormerLurker (#780)

Eagan as example. I never mentioned the guy until you brought him up.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   21:02:32 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#783. To: buckeroo (#778)

You have yet to provide any FACT or evidence about demolitions on 9/11.

As I've stated numerous times, I've explained how it's impossible for the towers to have collapsed WITHOUT demolitions of some type.

Try again, clown.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   21:02:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#784. To: buckeroo (#782)

Eagan as example. I never mentioned the guy until you brought him up.

It was Eager buttnuts, and you most certainly did pat your pal's ass each time he brought him up.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   21:03:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#785. To: buckeroo (#782)

Eagan as example. I never mentioned the guy until you brought him up.

Oh and BTW, I did later say that I was mistaken in that you PERSONALLY didn't mention him. Now show me where YOU'VE made any sort of corrections to your comments, or retracted any of your false claims.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   21:04:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#786. To: FormerLurker (#780)

Oh yeah? Where? Point it out.

You lied about the time of the collapses (9.22) which in REALITY were far greater than freefall speed, even your own calculations were inconsiderate of truth about the moment of impact.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   21:05:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#787. To: FormerLurker (#785)

I did later say that I was mistaken in that you PERSONALLY didn't mention him.

I know, you have already submitted that fact... which I shove in your face again.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   21:06:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#788. To: buckeroo (#781)

OTFL ... where did you dredge this idea up? On the Internet or between your butt cheeks?

Provide me a reason why you'd need real-time communications beyond what an OS such as Windows XP would provide, say in terms of a CAD system, or even video conferencing.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   21:06:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#789. To: buckeroo (#786)

You lied about the time of the collapses (9.22) which in REALITY were far greater than freefall speed, even your own calculations were inconsiderate of truth about the moment of impact.

So FIFTEEN SECONDS is FAR GREATER than NINE POINT TWO TWO SECONDS?

Are where do you get this "your calculations were inconsiderate of truth about the moment of impact" crap from?

Link the post, or retract your lie.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   21:08:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#790. To: FormerLurker (#785)

Look, get your facts straight. Come back when you decide to use the spin-o-machine again or better yet, tell us who what when where how and why the demolitions .... I notice your heckling pals are on the sidelines... because you can't even discuss the same shit you post unless it is with a fork-tongue.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   21:10:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#791. To: buckeroo (#786)

You lied about the time of the collapses (9.22)

BTW idiot, 9.22 seconds is the FREE FALL time of the North Tower. I NEVER said it took 9.22 seconds for the tower to collapse.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   21:11:24 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#792. To: FormerLurker (#789)

So FIFTEEN SECONDS is FAR GREATER than NINE POINT TWO TWO SECONDS?

yes...

Proof that the WTC towers did not collapse at freefall.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   21:11:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#793. To: buckeroo (#790)

Look, get your facts straight.

I've done nothing BUT post straight facts. Now what "facts" have you presented, other than your uneducated claims that the top of a building hits the ground at the same time a lower piece of it would if both started falling at the same time.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   21:13:24 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#794. To: buckeroo, ALL (#792)

Proof that the WTC towers did not collapse at freefall.

Neither I nor anyone else here claimed that it did. We have said it collapsed at CLOSE to or NEAR free fall speed.

You and your pal have made MANY false claims ACCUSING people here of saying they fell at free fall speed, which further proves the degree of your honesty.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   21:16:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#795. To: FormerLurker (#793)

I never said that, you did.

The moment of collapse occurred at each building from the moment of force at the 81st and 96th floors. This means the collapse is calculated where the terrorists crashed into the buildings not the top as you repeatedly claim.... your argument is bogus... you lifted it off some fucked-upped website, no doubt.

No one in serious educational or academic, technical, government circles look at your 9.22 calculation as anything more than a laff-a-minute similar to your spin-o-shit.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   21:21:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#796. To: FormerLurker (#794)

You and your pal have made MANY false claims ACCUSING people here of saying they fell at free fall speed

Are you out of your freaking gourd? Neither AG nor myself claim the buildings fell at freefall speeds. You have denied the whole point of this thread.

If the WTC buildings fell at freefall time, it would indicate that hanky-panky was at play by someone as controlled demolitions ensure a fast rate of collapse as the flooring underneath is dismissed progressively permitting a minimum of time.

Instead, it is proven on this thread the center of mass collapsed about the floors onto the lower floors from the IMPACT of jet aircraft!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   21:31:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#797. To: buckeroo, ALL (#795)

I never said that, you did.

The moment of collapse occurred at each building from the moment of force at the 81st and 96th floors. This means the collapse is calculated where the terrorists crashed into the buildings not the top as you repeatedly claim

WOW. You are saying it RIGHT HERE.

You are saying that the top of the tower will hit at a different time, dependent on where the supporting structure below it gives way.

I don't care where this "moment of force" is in terms of what initiated the fall, I am not even TALKING about the WTC collapse in terms of how long it would take to fall. I'm saying that an object dropped from the top of a building will fall at a rate which is easily calculated, and the precise amount of time it would take is ALSO easily calculated in terms of minimum time.

If an object were dropped from the top of the WTC1, it would have taken 9.22 seconds MINIMUM time for it to hit, a bit more due to air resistance.

Now for the TOP of the WTC to hit the ground, it IS a valid comparison to compare the total collapse time in terms of how long it took the TOP of the tower to hit the ground, and the amount of time it would take an object to fall through thin air dropped from the same height.

ANOTHER valid comparison would be to determine the exact amount of time it took for the damaged section itself to impact the ground, and the time it would take for an object to fall from THAT height.

Thing is, most everything turned to dust well before that part of the building got close to the ground, so it's impossible to tell how long it took for THAT part of the building to "hit", since there was nothing left of it by the time it DID reach the ground.

Only estimates of the total time are available, in terms of how long the rumble lasted, or estimates judging from the various videos on the net.

The only valid collapse time would be that which could be determined by analysis of actual raw footage, where the cadence of the video can be determined, and a close estimate of the point of complete collapse from top to bottom can be determined, then by subtracting the end time from the start time in terms of time ticks on the video, establish a total collapse time.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   21:37:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#798. To: buckeroo (#796)

Neither AG nor myself claim the buildings fell at freefall speeds.

No, but the two of you have ACCUSED everyone else here of saying that exact thing, where NOBODY here has done so.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   21:38:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#799. To: buckeroo (#796)

Instead, it is proven on this thread the center of mass collapsed about the floors onto the lower floors from the IMPACT of jet aircraft!

No, it is NOT proven. What is proven is that you are a bold-faced liar.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   21:38:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#800. To: AGAviator (#769)

Instead of wanting the slightest shred of det cord, or detonators, or appropriate amounts of barium nitrate in the debris and residue

Go ask the Chinese for that, maybe they haven't buried or otherwise destroyed all the evidence yet.

I doubt you'd find det cord or detonators within whatever was left of the buildings though, since most everything turned to dust.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   21:40:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#801. To: AGAviator, all (#796)

You and your pal [AGAviator] have made MANY false claims ACCUSING people here of saying they [WTC] fell at free fall speed

AG ... did you see how FL has vacillated his opinion.... again? He and his entire cockamamie crowd make that claim.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   21:41:32 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#802. To: buckeroo, ALLL (#801)

AG ... did you see how FL has vacillated his opinion.... again? He and his entire cockamamie crowd make that claim.

You just accused me of making the claim that the towers fell at free fall speed, yet you have the balls to cry to your boyfriend that I just stated the obvious fact that is indeed what you did?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   21:43:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#803. To: FormerLurker (#799)

What is proven is that you are a bold-faced liar.

I see.. because YOU say so. Yeah, you made a post or two wherein you have called me a liar..... and you retracted them. Are you going to retract this one too?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   21:44:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#804. To: FormerLurker (#802)

The towers DID NOT FALL AT FREE FALL SPEEDS. Is that clear?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   21:45:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#805. To: buckeroo (#803)

I see.. because YOU say so. Yeah, you made a post or two wherein you have called me a liar..... and you retracted them. Are you going to retract this one too?

You are lying RIGHT HERE. I NEVER retracted any statement accusing you of lying, that in itself is an outrageous lie.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   21:45:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#806. To: buckeroo (#804)

The towers DID NOT FALL AT FREE FALL SPEEDS. Is that clear?

Nobody ever said they did? So?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   21:45:50 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#807. To: buckeroo (#804)

The towers DID NOT FALL AT FREE FALL SPEEDS

The towers fell CLOSE to free fall speeds however.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   21:46:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#808. To: FormerLurker (#807)

The towers fell CLOSE to free fall speeds however.

All BLDGS UNDER CD fall at freefall speeds... your idea disproved.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   21:50:26 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#809. To: buckeroo (#792) (Edited)

Proof that the WTC towers did not collapse at freefall.

No, but it was much faster than it should have been to be a progressive pancake collapse. Not to mention that a vast amount of energy needed to keep the pancaking occurring was being directed outward and upward as seen in the photos. That would not occur without explosives being used. So you have once again been proven wrong.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   21:52:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#810. To: buckeroo (#808)

All BLDGS UNDER CD fall at freefall speeds... your idea disproved.

Wrong. They fall close to freefall speeds, but they do not fall at free fall speeds. You should know the difference since you claim to be a real-time expert. The timing of the explosions has to be precise to get the desired result of the building collapsing in on itself.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   21:57:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#811. To: buckeroo (#808)

All BLDGS UNDER CD fall at freefall speeds... your idea disproved.

Pure BS.

No matter HOW LONG it would take for a REGULAR demolition utilizing explosives, a COVERT demolition would NOT make it obvious to the world that is what happened, so would incorporate SOME delay in the timing of the explosives to make it look like it was something other than explosives which took the building down.

I'd like to see ANY example of a KNOWN demolition where the upper-most part of the structure hit the ground at EXACTLY free fall speed.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   22:05:22 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#812. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#811)

a COVERT demolition would NOT make it obvious to the world that is what happened, so would incorporate SOME delay in the timing of the explosives to make it look like it was something other than explosives which took the building down.

Another idea pulled out of your ass, 'eh? Still, no FACTS supporting CD other than mere speculation. Have you opted to be a complete ruby-red-lipped-sticked klown?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   22:10:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#813. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#811) (Edited)

a COVERT demolition would NOT make it obvious to the world that is what happened, so would incorporate SOME delay in the timing

Half Truther Stock in Trade: Change your story when you get debunked on specifics

For 8 years +, Half Truthers have been pushing the free fall scenario every chance they get. Now you want to disassociate yourself from them because the evidence shows that didn't happen.

So now do you repudiate the Tw00fers claiming free fall? I doubt it.

Well, you've got a lot of work to do getting them back onto reservation.

0:06 "You know how fast...caused towers to fall? Nine seconds. You know how long it would take something to free fall with no resistance? Nine seconds. It's physically impossible."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   22:14:23 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#814. To: AGAviator (#813)

For 8 years +, Half Truthers have been pushing the free fall scenario every chance they get. Now you want to disassociate yourself from them because the evidence shows that didn't happen.

I don't care what sort of disinfo crap you can find on the net, what I am saying, and what everybody here on this forum has said, is that the towers fell CLOSE to free fall speed, which is IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS controlled explosives were used, or some other means of demolition, be it exotic weaponry or standard C4.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   22:22:53 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#815. To: buckeroo (#812)

Another idea pulled out of your ass, 'eh? Still, no FACTS supporting CD other than mere speculation. Have you opted to be a complete ruby-red-lipped-sticked klown?

What part of "not wanting to expose the demolition as an obvious demolition" don't you understand, buttercup?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   22:24:04 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#816. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#813)

So now do you [FormerLuker] repudiate the Tw00fers claiming free fall?

He vacillates any time given a chance... he could care less about the truth of our country; I think he finds it far more easy to speculate than doing anything about the essential issues.

Good video.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   22:30:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#817. To: FormerLurker (#815)

What part of "not wanting to expose the demolition as an obvious demolition" don't you understand

You don't understand CD, do you .. especially on some of the largest buildings on the planet such as the twin towers, do you?

I imagine that you think of black ninjas creeping up the side panels of the WTC and then scurrying placing a CD... got photos? Or even the maintenance crew (24 hour a day work) or even management coming clean about something going on?

Poor puppy. FL, you have turned into a pathetic waste of my time on the Internet. You can't show anything about a conspiracy.... other than maybe... possibly ... I think...

ROTFL.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   22:40:53 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#818. To: buckeroo, RickyJ (#817)

You don't understand CD, do you .. especially on some of the largest buildings on the planet such as the twin towers, do you?

It's apparent that you understand CD as well as you understand physics, in other words, you haven't the faintest clue about it.

I imagine that you think of black ninjas creeping up the side panels of the WTC and then scurrying placing a CD... got photos?

Oh yes buttercup, that's what I'm suggesting.

I guess you missed the post that explained how the elevators were being serviced weeks before the 9/11 attacks, and that would have been the perfect opportunity to plant explosives.

Oh wait, I DID post that to you, and now you're pretending that I didn't. How surprising.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   22:57:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#819. To: buckeroo (#817) (Edited)

ROTFL.

I'm wondering more and more if you aren't really BAC...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   22:58:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#820. To: FormerLurker (#818)

I guess you missed the post that explained how the elevators were being serviced weeks before the 9/11 attacks, and that would have been the perfect opportunity to plant explosives.

Unlike yourself familiar with maintenance crew regular duties to service the buildings, I must ask was there an eye-witness about planting CD? Or were they in on the conspiracy, too?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   23:03:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#821. To: FormerLurker (#707)

which is proof enough that what they claimed to have happened did not happen the way they claim, and to top it off they've invested all their defense in the likes of bucky and AGairrectum.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-21   23:07:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#822. To: buckeroo, RickyJ, FormerLurker (#808)

All BLDGS UNDER CD fall at freefall speeds...

Not true.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-21   23:07:52 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#823. To: IRTorqued (#821)

You know, you have called me a liar time and again throughout this thread. I have been tolerant, too, showing the errors of your own posts.

You can't be objective to FACTS. You have your mind made up...

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   23:14:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#824. To: abraxas, FormerLurker, buckeroo, RIckyJ, James Deffenbach (#759)

Didn't you know that Buck is the Alpha and the Omega of the Internet?

His hero, AlGore™ invented the Internet, did he not?


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-21   23:14:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#825. To: wudidiz (#822)

Oh, you have a widdle itty-bitty match stick struck under a chemtrail?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   23:17:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#826. To: FormerLurker (#737)

Again, find a copy of the FAA commercial license and put this matter to rest.

he'll do that as quickly as he'll come up with the videos showing what really happened at the pentagon.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-21   23:27:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#827. To: buckeroo (#823)

facts? you've posted no facts WRT what really happened on 9-11-01.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-21   23:30:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#828. To: IRTorqued (#826)

Here is a link PROVING hanjour had a FAA certificate: www.gpoaccess.gov/serials...pdf/fullreport_errata.pdf .. you read it... I am tired of the BS that some of you wantonly spew.

No wonder America is all fucked upped. The problem is far beyond just voters ... it is the speculators that don't know SHIT/

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   23:33:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#829. To: IRTorqued (#827)

you've posted no facts WRT what really happened on 9-11-01.

Where are your facts? That someone was caught up in a calamity?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   23:34:22 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#830. To: wudidiz (#824)

His hero, AlGore™ invented the Internet, did he not?

I believe he made such a claim or something close to it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   23:37:34 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#831. To: James Deffenbach (#830)

I believe he [buckeroo]made such a claim or something close to it.

No... you did Jimmy, time and time again... just distort the truth using your fucked-upped caricature of my posts within the single cell of your own mind.

So, prove I have ever used AlGore as a reference. If you can't, you have lied again.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   23:41:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#832. To: FormerLurker (#770)

if that were true bucky wouldn't be here, he wouldn't have real time to be here.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-21   23:42:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#833. To: IRTorqued (#826) (Edited)

He will have a better chance of coming up with that guy's FAA commercial license than he will of coming up with Obama's real birth certificate.

Still there is no video of the plane that supposedly hit the Pentagon. After all this time it has never been released. The supposed eyewitnesses to the event all have different stories, with many of them not aligning with the official story. Yet just about everyone has seen the videos of the planes hitting the Towers.

Why does the Pentagon refuse to release one of the many high quality videos they have of the time flight 77 allegedly hit the Pentagon?

My guess is that they show no plane hitting the Pentagon at that time. All it will show is the wall already blown up minutes earlier by bombs. It's amazing what Muslim terrorists living in caves in Afghanistan can do to get by the security of the most secure building in the world to plant those bombs. No one would ever buy that they were able to so such a thing, so the plane hitting the Pentagon story had to be made up in advance. And the reason they didn't just go ahead and hit the Pentagon with a plane like flight 77 is because Rumsfeld was there at the time and he didn't want to take a chance of being killed by a real jumbo jet smashing into the Pentagon.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-21   23:43:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#834. To: RickyJ (#833)

My guess is that they show no plane hitting the Pentagon at that time.

The Pentagon? This thread is about the WTC... are you daft?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   23:46:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#835. To: buckeroo (#828)

no that is a link claiming hanjour had an FAA certificate. cough up the certificate.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-21   23:58:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#836. To: buckeroo (#828)

Here is a link PROVING hanjour had a FAA certificate: www.gpoaccess.gov/serials...pdf/fullreport_errata.pdf .. you read it... I am tired of the BS that some of you wantonly spew.

Where's the proof? I want to see a copy of the FAA license, and/or information as to what commercial flight school he attended, and the location and date of his FAA exam.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   0:01:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#837. To: buckeroo, IRTorqued (#770)

My RT kernal. I deliver some of the fastest response times under the Sun.... it is proprietary.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Somebody who doesn't know shit about TCP/IP or how the Internet works invented his own real-time kernal. Yeah, and Al Gore was your co-developer right?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   0:03:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#838. To: buckeroo (#834)

The Pentagon? This thread is about the WTC... are you daft?

It is all related to the terror events of 9/11. They were all allegedly done by the same group.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   0:04:09 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#839. To: RickyJ (#834)

just like the ever vigilant member of the liar movement, bucky knows there are obvious holes in official fairy tale WRT the pentagon and those holes translate into holes in the whole 9-11 fabrication the government has put forth. the tale bucky defends holds as much truth as a sieve holds water.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-22   0:07:34 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#840. To: FormerLurker (#837)

dang! kick him where his testicles would be if he had any why don't you.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-22   0:09:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#841. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, (#836)

Where's the proof? I want to see a copy of the FAA license, and/or information as to what commercial flight

Where's Orly Taitz, Phil Allen Berg, and J. Allen Keyes when you need them?

MWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   0:10:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#842. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#737) (Edited)

Again, find a copy of the FAA commercial license and put this matter to rest.

As with Obama birth certificate, k00ks don't call the shots, and to order someone else to produce evidence, the complaining party needs to have credible evidence of its own.

Nobody is going to wet nurse a whiner just because he's throwing tantrums.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   0:14:17 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#843. To: AGAviator (#842)

As with Obama birth certificate, k00ks don't call the shots

If they ever do, I'm sure you will suck up to them just as you do the ones calling the shots now.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   0:24:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#844. To: AGAviator (#842)

k00ks don't call the shots

Right, so cough up the FAA commercial license, or STFU.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   1:15:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#845. To: FormerLurker (#844)

Looks like the liar movement's not doing so well.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-22   1:51:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#846. To: wudidiz (#845)

Ask'em about Barry Jennings.

That's always fun...


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-22   2:11:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#847. To: Rotara (#846)

Or what happened to the pentagon videos?


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-22   2:35:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#848. To: wudidiz (#847)

Or what happened to the pentagon videos?

Probably the same the same thing that happened to the high quality videos of the moon landings. They got taped over to save money. LOL!

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   2:43:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#849. To: RickyJ (#848)

k00k

;-)


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-22   2:52:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#850. To: RickyJ (#833)

And the reason they didn't just go ahead and hit the Pentagon with a plane like flight 77 is because Rumsfeld was there at the time and he didn't want to take a chance of being killed by a real jumbo jet smashing into the Pentagon.

lol Looks like a Bingo to me. :)

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-22   5:22:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#851. To: AGAviator (#841) (Edited)

Where's Orly Taitz, Phil Allen Berg, and J. Allen Keyes when you need them?

MWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

Where's your answer to my question about why there's no engine-noise in the background of those alleged phone calls from the alleged planes? Where's a valid source for your assertion, and Wikipedia's, that "Among the uncertain parameters was the status of the cockpit door, which showed no sign of having been opened during the hijacking or previous 40 hours, including 11 flights prior to the hijacking.[1]"? Your own Wikipedia reference does indicate that the evidentiary door parameters certainly don't support the hijacking story. Additionally, the rest of the statement, which evidently appears to be a fabrication, indicates as well that you need to remove #4 now from your itemized "not debunked" list. MWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! backatcha.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-22   5:51:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#852. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#737)

Oh so all of his other instructors were wrong, and only the one who somewhat supports YOUR view is the fountain of truth. What a jackass you are.

Again, find a copy of the FAA commercial license and put this matter to rest.

Right on the fucking video I linked, the flight instructor and the other instructors I linked to say

(1) He had a valid FAA pilot certificate, and
(2) They did not think it that unusual or uncommon that he needed retraining for becoming safely trained to operate a Cessana 172.
In typical Half Truther fashion, you only quote the parts you think will benefit your k00kspiracy theory.

Here is the video again. Looks like you need repitition to penetrate into whatever brain cells you have left.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   8:35:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#853. To: FormerLurker (#844)

k00ks don't call the shots

Right, so cough up the FAA commercial license, or STFU.

Hire Oily Taitz, Phil Berg, or J. Alan Keyes to file 60 lawsuits that will all get dismissed, loser.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   8:37:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#854. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#814)

what everybody here on this forum has said, is that the towers fell CLOSE to free fall speed, which is IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS controlled explosives were used,

Fifteen seconds and twenty two seconds are not CLOSE to 9.22 seconds and there has never been even a single shred of det cord, timing devices, or thermite/blasting igniters discovered at any site at any time.

Show me even a single piece of any of the above, Half Truther.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   8:42:22 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#855. To: AGAviator (#852)

Find a copy of Hanjour's FAA Commercial Pilot's License.

There are many unsubstantiated CLAIMS made that he had one, but not ONE single shred of evidence that he actually did. It would normally be something you could easily find, since it's a critical claim made by the government that Hanjour did in fact have one. That there is absolutely no copy presented to the public as evidence that he DID have one indicates he more than likely DIDN'T.

Being that he HAD no flying skills, it's obviously just an empty claim, and he more than likely possessed a forged document.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   8:48:46 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#856. To: AGAviator (#854)

Fifteen seconds and twenty two seconds are not CLOSE to 9.22 seconds

It is RELATIVELY CLOSE, in that we aren't talking about the difference between 9 seconds and 120 seconds, we're talking about the difference between 9 and 15.

9 seconds for absolute freefall through a vacuum, and 15 (alleged by YOUR cherry picked source) for the total collapse, where you admit that it took approximately 6 seconds to smash and destroy every undamaged support member of a 110 story building, pulverized it, and cause it to completely disintegrate and collapse, all without extra help.

Ok bud, you're really making a lot of sense here...

and there has never been even a single shred of det cord, timing devices, or thermite/blasting igniters discovered at any site at any time.

How many office chairs were found? How many PC's, fax machines, or any other identifiable object? None.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   8:54:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#857. To: GreyLmist, buckeroo (#851)

Where's your answer to my question about why there's no engine-noise in the background of those alleged phone calls from the alleged planes?

So you think airlines set up their satellite phones noise filters to capture jet engine sounds instead of voice conversation?

And you think somebody speaking quickly and urgently into the telephone about a hijacking and people getting their throats slashed is going to talk sotto voce so as to make sure the person getting called hears jet noise in the background?

What a wack question.

Where's a valid source for your assertion, and Wikipedia's, that "Among the uncertain parameters was the status of the cockpit door, which showed no sign of having been opened during the hijacking or previous 40 hours, including 11 flights prior to the hijacking.[1]"?

You can't even read a footnote?

Right Here

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   9:10:53 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#858. To: AGAviator, GreyLmist (#857)

So you think airlines set up their satellite phones noise filters to capture jet engine sounds instead of voice conversation?

Which aircraft do you allege had "satellite phones" onboard?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   9:20:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#859. To: AGAviator, GreyLmist (#857)

Where's a valid source for your assertion, and Wikipedia's, that "Among the uncertain parameters was the status of the cockpit door, which showed no sign of having been opened during the hijacking or previous 40 hours, including 11 flights prior to the hijacking.[1]"?

Thing is, that's 40 hours of FLIGHT TIME, not the time the aircraft is on the ground.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   9:21:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#860. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#856)

It is RELATIVELY CLOSE, in that we aren't talking about the difference between 9 seconds and 120 seconds, we're talking about the difference between 9 and 15.

One and a half to over twice the time of a freefall is not RELATIVELY CLOSE.

Especially when - as I have already posted - real controlled demolitions remove as much of the obstructing material as is safe to make sure the buildings fall as fast as they possbly can. In order not to introduce additional problem causing variables such as uncertainty about timing of the collapse, and factors that would make the fall go in some unpredicatble direction because gravity forces would be mitigated.

In a controlled demolition you want gravity to work straight down and as fast as possible. Anything other than that is not controlled demolition.

How many PC's, fax machines, or any other identifiable object? None.

There were pieces of thousands of aircraft pieces, human remains, office items, including Desks, FAXes, phones, toner cartridges, computers, printers, telephones.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   9:22:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#861. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#858)

Which aircraft do you allege had "satellite phones" onboard?

Read the evidence and do your own research before demanding proof from people you are disputing because they don't support your CT.

Orly Taitz type tactics of demanding evidence without supplying any, are not going to work for Half Truther challenges any better than they worked for Obama Birth Certificate challenges.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   9:25:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#862. To: AGAviator (#860)

One and a half to over twice the time of a freefall is not RELATIVELY CLOSE.

What an idiot. Of COURSE it is relatively close, to any rational person that is.

15/9 is 1.67, so it's not OVER TWICE, it's 1.67 times. What it comes down to is that it took 6 extra seconds to demolish a 110 story steel and concrete skyscraper than it would have taken for a rubber ball to drop from the very top of it. So yes, that IS relatively close to free fall.

In a controlled demolition you want gravity to work straight down and as fast as possible. Anything other than that is not controlled demolition.

LOL, so now you're claiming to be an expert on controlled demolitions, eh? You don't know jack about it, and for ANYONE to have pulled it off covertly, where it could be plausibly denied, it COULDN'T have been done any other way.

There were pieces of thousands of aircraft pieces, human remains, office items, including Desks, FAXes, phones, toner cartridges, computers, printers, telephones.

Really? Provide a link. And BTW, how could anyone search for evidence of explosives if the debris was kept under guard and no forensic analysis was done? Provide some documentation indicating that a full scale analysis was performed of the debris, where they were LOOKING for evidence of explosives.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   9:31:04 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#863. To: AGAviator (#861)

Read the evidence and do your own research before demanding proof from people you are disputing because they don't support your CT.

In other words, there is no evidence.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   9:31:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#864. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#863)

In other words, there is no evidence.

There's plenty of evidence. I've posted thousands of words of links and videos while you and your pals are engaging in your snide gaybanter projections.

But at some point you have to bring some to get some, especially when you want things repeated you've already been shown, with your only reply being "I don't wanna believe that. The gubmint made it up."

Show me your evidence. A single piece of anything showing conclusive controlled demolition evidence.

A single person describing how "they" blew up the WTC buildings without leaving any physical traces and zero eye witnesses.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   9:37:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#865. To: AGAviator (#864)

There's plenty of evidence. I've posted thousands of words of links and videos while you and your pals are engaging in your snide gaybanter projections.

If there were credibile evidence, you would have posted it. I haven't seen one shred of credible evidence in terms of whether or not there were skyphones on any of the aircraft which allegedly were used in the 9/11 attacks.

Oh, and keep up the ad hominems, it really reinforces your position.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   9:40:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#866. To: FormerLurker (#863) (Edited)

To me it is as simple watching a video of the towers come down. Gravity would not produce such forceful sideways and upward thrust of debris away from the towers. Not to mention asymmetrical damage could not produce a symmetrical collapse. Actualy I think only controlled demolitions can produce symmetrical collapses. Just further proof they blew the towers up.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   9:40:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#867. To: AGAviator (#864)

I've posted thousands of words of links and videos while you and your pals are engaging in your snide gaybanter projections.

Barry Jennings says you are liar about bombs being in the buildings. He was there and heard them.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   9:43:24 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#868. To: RickyJ (#866)

Not to mention asymmetrical damage could not produce a symmetrical collapse.

That is certainly a strong indication that something other than gravity brought the buildings down.

It's virtually impossible to have a totally symmetrical collapse without the use of explosives.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   9:52:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#869. To: RickyJ (#848)

Probably the same the same thing that happened to the high quality videos of the moon landings. They got taped over to save money. LOL!

What, are you a KOOK or something? LOL! Good one. (I thought you might be missing BAC but I believe his twin has started posting here).

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-22   10:26:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#870. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#862) (Edited)

One and a half to over twice the time of a freefall is not RELATIVELY CLOSE. What an idiot. Of COURSE it is relatively close, to any rational person that is.

15/9 is 1.67, so it's not OVER TWICE, it's 1.67 times. What it comes down to is that it took 6 extra seconds to demolish a 110 story steel and concrete skyscraper than it would have taken for a rubber ball to drop from the very top of it. So yes, that IS relatively close to free fall.

I explicitly said 1.5 to over double. 1.67 is greater than 1.5, and 22 is over twice 9.22. I'm right on both counts.

You're doing your usual Half Truther obfuscation trying to hide that it's the Half Truthers who've been claiming 9.22 seconds free fall conspiracy for the last 8+ years and they are proven WRONG.

That's nifty little shapeshifting theory you've got. But it's a lie. If something takes 9.22 seconds, it's supposed to be evidence of a conspiracy. And if it doesn't take 9.22 seconds, then it's supposed to be evidence of a conspiracy + a coverup.

Straight from the father of all lies, Half Truther.

LOL, so now you're claiming to be an expert on controlled demolitions, eh? You don't know jack about it, and for ANYONE to have pulled it off covertly, where it could be plausibly denied, it COULDN'T have been done any other way.

Talking out of your a$$ again? How about the President of Controlled Demolitions, Inc. You know more than he does?

Mark Loizeaux - President of Cont. Demolition Inc

0:20 "The largest steel structure we've taken down..Guiness Record...Hudson Building...It took months to prepare the structure...months...there's just no way to get around it...You go ahead and knock out, usually, all the walls..."

0:54 "Then there's the placing of all the hundreds of explosive charges. Plus literally miles of insulating cable, and miles more of detonating cord.."

1:10 Question: "Building 7, occupied, and literally no one has seen anything?"

1:15 Answer: "In a screen play. In a movie. Something with Bruce Willis in it, maybe. Um, in reality - no."

2:27 "What does an explosion sound like? Most people don't know, because most people have never heard one. So any sharp, loud "bang," "that's probably an explosion."

3:22 "I didn't see windows broken on the backs of buildings. Only where debris falling from the towers struck...If explosives of the magnitude necessary to cut the columns in a big building were detonated, the windows all around would have been shattered. Ther's no way around it."

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   10:44:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#871. To: RickyJ, buckeroo (#867)

Barry Jennings says you are liar about bombs being in the buildings.

Barry Jennings said no such thing, Half Truther, but as long as you want to quote him, have him produce the slightest fragment of explosive residue, igniters, det cord, or timing devices.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   10:46:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#872. To: James Deffenbach, wudidiz, RickyJ, GreyLmist, FormerLurker, James Deffenbach, Rotara, abraxas, Original_Intent (#869)

and still nothing but silence WRT all those videos seized from around the pentagon.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-22   10:47:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#873. To: AGAviator, wudidiz, RickyJ, GreyLmist, FormerLurker, James Deffenbach, Rotara, abraxas, Original_Intent (#871)

I say subject marvin bush to waterboarding and see what he has to say about explocives in the WTC and everything he knows about airport security. subject AGovshill to same but save the time of asking questions as it is obvious he knows nothing.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-22   10:54:04 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#874. To: AGAviator (#857)

www.ntsb.gov/info/AAL77_fdr.pdf

Awesome resource. I wish I had found it .... but independently PROVED the BS about the cabin door through original Boeing and FAA material.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   11:44:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#875. To: FormerLurker (#868)

It's virtually impossible to have a totally symmetrical collapse without the use of explosives.

Got a link?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   11:49:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#876. To: buckeroo (#874)

but independently PROVED the BS about the cabin door through original Boeing and FAA material.

Bullshit, it simply lists the FLT DECK DOOR parameter as unconfirmed.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   12:12:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#877. To: AGAviator (#870)

That's nifty little shapeshifting theory you've got. But it's a lie. If something takes 9.22 seconds, it's supposed to be evidence of a conspiracy. And if it doesn't take 9.22 seconds, then it's supposed to be evidence of a conspiracy + a coverup.

What a complete and total ass you are.

So if it took 9.23 seconds, there's no demolition, but if it took 9.22, well then there is.

That's an extreme, but SIX seconds (or less) difference STILL is NOT NORMAL, and NOT DUE TO GRAVITY. 110 stories of steel and cement does not come apart in 6 seconds without a bit of help.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   12:15:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#878. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#876)

Bullshit, it simply lists the FLT DECK DOOR parameter as unconfirmed.

That means there is no valid data, so claims of events not happening or happening are lies.

So you lose.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   12:18:52 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#879. To: AGAviator (#878)

That means there is no valid data, so claims of events not happening or happening are lies.

Do you speak English much? Do you know the difference between UNCONFIRMED and INVALID?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   12:26:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#880. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#877)

So if it took 9.23 seconds, there's no demolition, but if it took 9.22, well then there is.

It took anywhere from 1.5 to 2.2 times what CT controlled demolition theory says it should have taken and did, shyster.

You've Half Truthers have been hosted on your own petard. Eat your lies.

And you are tap dancing away from, and have not addressed, the interview with Mark Loizeaux, President of Controlled Demolition I posted.

Loizeaux explicity says it took "months" to prepare buildings far smaller than WTC for CD, that this prep work was totally necessary, that it's absolutely impossible for people spending time doing this much prep work not to be noticed, and that people not familar with what explosions sound like think that any "sharp loud bang" is an explosion even though it isn't.

Once again you get your a$$ handed to you, and once again you will try to divert the discussion into quibbling over minutiae and definitions instead of resolving the basic question.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   12:31:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#881. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#879)

Do you speak English much? Do you know the difference between UNCONFIRMED and INVALID?

Show me any ***valid**** data, then, idiot.

If there is nothing to confirm to begin with, then "no valid data" is the proper term to be used.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   12:34:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#882. To: AGAviator (#880)

It took anywhere from 1.5 to 2.2 times what CT controlled demolition theory says it should have taken and did, shyster.

We're talking about SIX SECONDS DIFFERENCE MORON, not minutes or hours.

As far as HOW the explosives were planted, it could have been done over years time, but the perfect opportunity for the finishing touches would have been weeks before 9/11 where the elevators were being serviced, and the weekend before 9/11 where the power was shutdown in order to "run new cables" throughout the building.

Now go high five yourself in the mirror for being such a genius, even though you couldn't figure any of that on your own.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   12:50:24 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#883. To: AGAviator (#881)

Show me any ***valid**** data

We are some 800+ posts into this thread. For four different events, not one shred of government or for that matter, anyone, planting bombs, falsifying records, covering-up, witnesses, hard fact or anything BUT ... "someone" said this and "someone" said that. These vague and nebulous expressions offered as proof shows the level of conspiracy theory addiction our fellow posters possess.

It is a wonder they can get through the day without hiding from the government out to murder them too.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   12:53:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#884. To: AGAviator (#881)

Show me any ***valid**** data, then, idiot.

Write to American Airlines and ask for their maintenance info on Flight 77. It's not publically available. And that's the only way to find out if those sensors were actually wired, and if the data was actually being collected.

The maintenance manual for the aircraft indicates those parameters were in fact valid parameters, but it's uncertain if the manual covers all 757's or not.

Now go find Hanjour's FAA Commericial License and get back to me when you do.

Idiot.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   12:54:17 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#885. To: buckeroo (#883)

Go help your pal find Hanjour's FAA Commercial License. Until somebody does, there's no evidence that he ever really had one, and the piece of paper he showed people could very well have been a forgery.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   12:56:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#886. To: FormerLurker (#885)

Go help your pal find Hanjour's FAA Commercial License.

I already showed that his certification records have been witnessed and in the testimony in Congress about 9/11...... why should do your research.... by the way in that same document, it discloses who trained Hanjour and helped him through the testing processes.

Why don't you read the document that I already provided.

At any rate, it means nothing. He crashed FLT77 into the Pentagon. End of story other than the tremendous tragedy these hijackers performed on 9/11.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   13:01:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#887. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#884)

but it's uncertain if the manual covers all 757's or not.

Incredible.... at least you are starting to see the light!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   13:03:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#888. To: buckeroo (#887)

Oh yeah, 888 for Ab.......

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-22   13:04:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#889. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#882) (Edited)

As far as HOW the explosives were planted, it could have been done over years time, but the perfect opportunity for the finishing touches would have been weeks before 9/11 where the elevators were being serviced

Wtong. You lie as fast as you can type.

In his video, Mark Loizeaux explicitly says the explosives used have a shelf life of 3 years, and beyond 3 years there's no assurance they will go off.

Not only is there a 3 year window to use the explosives, they would need to be set up in 3 separate buildings, each of which is multiple times larger than the largest building ever imploded - done by Controlled Demolitions - in New York City and listed in the Guiness Book of World Records.

So making your whoppers to avoid one issue, just gets you in deeper and deeper.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   13:06:20 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#890. To: buckeroo (#886)

I already showed that his certification records have been witnessed and in the testimony in Congress about 9/11......

Just because an instructor claims to have seen it isn't evidence that it exists, it's simply hearsay evidence.

You'd think if there WERE a real certificate, it'd be included as an exhibit in the 9/11 Commission report.

Again, where's the info on which commercial flight school he attended in order to train for his commercial license? More than likely there ISN'T ANY, because more than likely he NEVER RECEIVED THAT LICENSE.

The FAA should have a record of it if he DID have one. They would ALSO know what flight school he attended, where the exam was taken, when it was taken, and which FAA examiner performed the exam.

Where is THAT information buckie?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   13:07:06 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#891. To: AGAviator (#889)

Wtong. You lie as fast as you can type.

In his video, Mark Loizeaux explicitly says the explosives used have a shelf life of 3 years, and beyond 3 years there's no assurance they will go offr.

Wow, besides lying through your teeth, you type badly when you get owned.

Is Mark Loizeaux admitting that he planted the explosives in the WTC? How would HE know what type was used?

You first say he said it could take months to wire a building and place the explosives, which is more than likely a real stretch, but ok, I simply responded that they had YEARS to plant it ahead of time.

Now you say I'm lying, because I simply stated the obvious, where YOU are lying by accusing ME of lying.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   13:10:22 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#892. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#891)

Is Mark Loizeaux admitting that he planted the explosives in the WTC? How would HE know what type was used?

What a numbskull. Where do you get that from just because unlike you he actually knows what it takes to do such a job.

There are industry standard explosives used to blast cleanly through steel columns.

You think someone is just going to go out and buy a bunch of firecrackers, duct tape them to the largest structures in the world, and hope for the best?

Gawd you're dumb and with every post getting dumber.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   13:18:22 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#893. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#890) (Edited)

You'd think if there WERE a real certificate, it'd be included as an exhibit in the 9/11 Commission report.

Read pages 225-226 of this 9/11 Commission report. Hanjour had both a private pilot's license AND a FAA pilot's certificate for commercial aircraft.

You lose again, pal.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   13:23:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#894. To: AGAviator (#892)

You think someone is just going to go out and buy a bunch of firecrackers, duct tape them to the largest structures in the world, and hope for the best?

Isn't this a fun thread? I knew you would enjoy this stuff.....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   13:28:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#895. To: buckeroo (#893)

Read pages 225-226 of this 9/11 Commission report. Hanjour had both a private pilot's license AND a FAA pilot's certificate for commercial aircraft.

Is there a copy of each displayed there? Is there an attachement with that information in the doc?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   13:33:23 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#896. To: AGAviator (#892)

There are industry standard explosives used to blast cleanly through steel columns.

Oh, and you think commerical demolition companies have access to military grade explosives, eh? What a shmuck...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   13:34:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#897. To: buckeroo (#894)

Isn't this a fun thread? I knew you would enjoy this stuff.....

I think I'm going to make a list of all the dodges used to deny the obvious.

Like "Here's a report showing Hanjour had an FAA license," with the reply "I demand to see the signed original."

Or "Contrary to claims of free fall of 9.22 seconds, actual fall times were 15.28 and 22 seconds respectively," with the reply "But it's only 1.67 times more than what has been claimed for the last 8 years."

LOL!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   13:36:52 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#898. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, Original_Intent, wudidiz, RickyJ, IRTorqued, abraxas (#854)

there has never been even a single shred of det cord, timing devices, or thermite/blasting igniters discovered at any site at any time.

From Architects and Engineer for 911 Truth;


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   13:39:09 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#899. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#896)

Oh, and you think commerical demolition companies have access to military grade explosives, eh

Who the fuck said anything about "military grade explosives," other than yourself, pinhead?

Military explosives are used to blow the $hit out of stuff with little or no regard to where the debris ends up.

Controlled demolition explosives are used to make sure that things they're used on end up where they're intended to be put.

A world of difference.

One whopper after another debunked. You're pathetic, Half Truther.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   13:40:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#900. To: FormerLurker (#898)

From Architects and Engineer for 911 Truth;

Where's the proof they were used?

How many, and where?

Where are the shreds of the HiEx devices from the debris?

Why would a new technique be used on 3 buildings all larger than the world record for CD's?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   13:42:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#901. To: AGAviator (#897)

Like "Here's a report showing Hanjour had an FAA license," with the reply "I demand to see the signed original."

LIAR. I asked for any image or PDF which contained a COPY of the FAA Commericial License.

All you have is hearday evidence, and not a shred of any REAL evidence.

Or "Contrary to claims of free fall of 9.22 seconds, actual fall times were 15.28 and 22 seconds respectively," with the reply "But it's only 1.67 times more than what has been claimed for the last 8 years."

The "22 second" collapse time is debatable, but the way you worded your original statement, you implied it could be up over twice as much for EITHER tower.

And I said we are talking about 6 seconds between your alleged collapse time and MINIMUM FREE FALL TIME where you said it's somewhere up to over TWICE as much time, where it's less than that for one, and we are NOT talking about minutes or hours, but seconds, SIX SECONDS to destroy an entire 110 story skyscraper made of steel and cement.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   13:45:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#902. To: FormerLurker (#895)

Why don't you read the document as opposed to asking questions? You said earlier, that Hanjour's pilot certification wasn't in the 911 Commission Report. Either you made that SHIT up or you never read the report.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   13:45:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#903. To: AGAviator (#900)

Where's the proof they were used?

Where's the proof that they weren't? Only an imbecile would think you'd have to run around with det cords in this day and age, and that the latest equipment wouldn't be used for such a major undertaking.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   13:46:32 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#904. To: buckeroo (#902)

You said earlier, that Hanjour's pilot certification wasn't in the 911 Commission Report. Either you made that SHIT up or you never read the report.

So you're saying there's an actual image of his FAA Commerical License in that report, right?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   13:47:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#905. To: AGAviator (#897)

LOL!!!!

I really like this comment: Or what happened to the pentagon videos?

Probably the same the same thing that happened to the high quality videos of the moon landings. They got taped over to save money. -- RickyJ @post#848.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   13:50:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#906. To: AGAviator (#899)

Who the fuck said anything about "military grade explosives," other than yourself, pinhead?

(tons of bullshit omitted)

One whopper after another debunked. You're pathetic, Half Truther.

So if an intelligence agency or some other covert group funded and supplied by a consortium of governments wished to bring down the WTC towers, they'd use commercial off the shelf junk, eh?

What an idiot.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   13:55:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#907. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#904)

So you're saying there's an actual image of his FAA Commerical License in that report, right?

Here is an image of Hanjour's FAA certification:

You are BUSTED again!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   14:01:22 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#908. To: buckeroo (#907)

Ok, so where is the examiner's name? Where was the exam taken?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   14:05:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#909. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#908) (Edited)

Ok, so where is the examiner's name? Where was the exam taken?

Certificate of True Copy by the FAA - Hanjour

[edit: insert picture of both licenses, intentionally made BIG for viewing]

Busted again!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   14:08:38 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#910. To: AGAviator (#871)

have him produce the slightest fragment of explosive residue, igniters, det cord, or timing devices.

Kind of hard to do since the nice people you work for knocked him off. Of course you know that already. So like I said before, enjoy your short time on Earth, it is all you got, hell awaits. You will see Barry in Heaven then.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   14:17:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#911. To: IRTorqued (#872)

and still nothing but silence WRT all those videos seized from around the pentagon.

Probably afraid we will find out who Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny's henchman is.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-22   14:34:53 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#912. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, ALL (#909)

AG ... you are vindicated from these fellow posters..... I have a lot of other work to do and normally don't jump in on some of these poster's claims..... but you right all along. Good work!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   14:35:17 ET  (2 images) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#913. To: IRTorqued (#873)

I say subject marvin bush to waterboarding and see what he has to say about explocives in the WTC and everything he knows about airport security. subject AGovshill to same but save the time of asking questions as it is obvious he knows nothing.

Sounds like a plan. LOL!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-22   14:35:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#914. To: (#909) (Edited)

Certificate of True Copy by the FAA - Hanjour

[edit: insert picture of both licenses, intentionally made BIG for viewing]

Wow, great research. You have more patience than I do!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   14:42:01 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#915. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#912) (Edited)

Busted again!

SWACK!!!!

Now you got your signed original.

Whatdaya say, Half Truther???

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   14:45:51 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#916. To: RickyJ (#910)

hell awaits.

Hell is for liars, Half Truther.

I've been debunking your Half Truther lies one after the other for the last month plus.

You will get there and I won't.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   14:47:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#917. To: AGAviator (#916)

Hell is for liars,

Yep, that it why it is waiting for you.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   14:49:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#918. To: RickyJ (#917) (Edited)

Hell is for liars,

Yep, that it why it is waiting for you.

Another lie, circlejerk.

Now tell me if Hajour had a pilot license as of April 15, 1999.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   14:50:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#919. To: AGAviator (#914)

The BS is now dispelled... Hanjour was fully capable hijacking FLT77 on 9/11, piloting the craft anywhere he chose.

He was a bad pilot though and his antics were far from capable of delivering a more serious blow.

Another rumour is now dispelled about FLT77. We have talked about cabin doors and Hanjour's pilot capabilities and we are right back where we started ... it is all BS about some plot by government.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   14:51:13 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#920. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, Original_Intent (#918)

Now tell me if Hajour had a pilot license as of April 15, 1999.

I notice that the thread has gone "strangely" silent. Can you describe the reasons?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   15:28:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#921. To: AGAviator (#918)

Now tell me if Hajour had a pilot license as of April 15, 1999.

I don't know or care about CIA agents and their documents. Let's talk about who benefited the most from 9/11. Do you know what country benefited the most? Do you know who shorted the airline stock of the airlines that allegedly struck the twin towers? You say you don't know? Let me give you a hint, it wasn't Iraq and it wasn't Afghanistan. And the shorters weren't Muslim.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   15:58:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#922. To: buckeroo (#909)

His name is spelt differenty than what is shown on the license and certificates.

Which is it, Hani Hanjoor, or Hani Hanjour?

Has anybody ever interviewed these examiners and ask them why they gave out a license to someone who couldn't fly?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   16:33:20 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#923. To: buckeroo (#920)

I notice that the thread has gone "strangely" silent. Can you describe the reasons?

Some people DO work for a living, have a life, and don't get paid to post on Internet news forums...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   16:35:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#924. To: FormerLurker (#922)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-22   16:35:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#925. To: Eric Stratton (#924)

Now you're entering the realm of logic, which is a major no-no when analyzing 9/11 or pretty much anything that the FedGov does.

My bad.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   16:36:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#926. To: FormerLurker (#925)

My bad.

Actually, you are good for laffs.... keep up the good work!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   16:49:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#927. To: RickyJ, buckeroo (#921) (Edited)

I don't know or care about CIA agents and their documents.

You don't know or care about anything except stale k00kshit because you're a swillsucking anaerobe who can only consume something stagnant that nothing else will ingest.

Do you know who shorted the airline stock of the airlines that allegedly struck the twin towers? You say you don't know? Let me give you a hint, it wasn't Iraq and it wasn't Afghanistan. And the shorters weren't Muslim.

More already debunked k00kshit.

All claims of irregular pre-911 trading were investigated by hundreds of accountants, FBI agents, securities researchers, and computer specialists for a many months. They were all found - without exception - to be legitimate trades with no conceivable connection to al Qaeda.

One purchase of airline puts was part of a hedging strategy connected with a corresponding long position in another airline company stock. A second was based on technical analysis and FAXED to newsline subscribers the Sunday before 911.

Both securities analysts Jon Najarian and Phil Erlanger who originally raised the flag about possible irregular trades later researched them and found the explanations legitimate. They are on record as saying there was no invalid trading did in fact happen upon further research.

The claims of unsusual call option in Rayetheon are idiotic because of the small amount that would have been realized even if they were totally bought by people with advance knowledge. A few hundred call options and a gain in stock of $7 per share would gain about $160,000 in profits. A single "seat" which allows you to bid and trade on the floor costs $2.3+ million per year. $100,000 is chump change for the power traders on the exchanges. They make or lose tens of millions in a single deal.

Only losers like you think $100,000 is a big deal.

On every single stock and option market anywhere in the world, every single trade is recorded and the recipients known. Nobody has been charged anywhere in the world with irregular 911 trading.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   16:59:52 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#928. To: AGAviator (#927)

you're a swillsucking anaerobe who can only consume something stagnant that nothing else will ingest.

Where do you learn this from? Does the Talmud teach this to you?

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   17:21:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#929. To: AGAviator, RickyJ (#927)

All claims of irregular pre-911 trading were investigated by hundreds of accountants, FBI agents, securities researchers, and computer specialists for a many months. They were all found - without exception - to be legitimate trades with no conceivable connection to al Qaeda.

I don't think Al-CIAda is who they should have been looking at. BTW, do you have any links to any reports that state beyond a shadow of a doubt there wasn't any irregularities?

Both securities analysts Jon Najarian and Phil Erlanger who originally raised the flag about possible irregular trades later researched them and found the explanations legitimate. They are on record as saying there was no invalid trading did in fact happen upon further research.

Yeah, I bet they were both "made an offer they couldn't refuse"...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   17:23:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#930. To: RickyJ (#928)

Where do you learn this from? Does the Talmud teach this to you?

I think a "bris" may have had something to do with it early on in his life...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   17:24:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#931. To: AGAviator (#927)

All claims of irregular pre-911 trading were investigated by hundreds of accountants, FBI agents, securities researchers, and computer specialists for a many months. They were all found - without exception - to be legitimate trades with no conceivable connection to al Qaeda.

It always "legit" when the "right" people do it, isn't it?

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   17:24:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#932. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#929) (Edited)

Both securities analysts Jon Najarian and Phil Erlanger who originally raised the flag about possible irregular trades later researched them and found the explanations legitimate. They are on record as saying there was no invalid trading did in fact happen upon further research.

Yeah, I bet they were both "made an offer they couldn't refuse"...

Any proof of that, jerkwad?

Or is this yet another of your easily debunked lies and character assassinations?

They both have forums they speak at regularly. Feel free to show up and question them instead of hiding anonymously behind an internet rock.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   17:27:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#933. To: AGAviator (#932)

Any proof of that, jerkwad?

Do you have that link I asked for?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   17:28:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#934. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, ALL (#929)

any reports that state beyond a shadow of a doubt there wasn't any irregularities?

Why don't you start performing your own research? So far, you have called AGAviator a "liar" many times.

And not one shred of PROOF ... is that because you don't know how to use a search engine?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   17:44:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#935. To: buckeroo (#934)

So far, you have called AGAviator a "liar" many times.

When he's lied, yes, I've called him a liar.

BTW, I'm still waiting to find out if this Hanjoor character is the same HanJOUR who is claimed to have flown Flight 77.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   17:46:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#936. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, ALL (#935)

When he's lied, yes, I've called him a liar.

But he hasn't lied. You have lied by calling AG a liar.

BTW, I'm still waiting to find out if this Hanjoor character is the same HanJOUR who is claimed to have flown Flight 77.

Yes he is.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   17:52:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#937. To: buckeroo, AGAviator, ALL (#936)

But he hasn't lied. You have lied by calling AG a liar.

Everyplace I've said he's lied, he's lied.

Everyplace I've said YOU'VE lied, you've lied.

BTW, here's a link if you really want to find out about good ole Hani...

Al Qaeda’s Top Gun : Willful Deception by the 9/11 Commission


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   18:02:13 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#938. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, ALL (#937)

Everyplace I've said he's lied, he's lied.

Everyplace I've said YOU'VE lied, you've lied.

But only YOU have lied... topic after topic, thread after thread.

You have wasted a lot time playing around about Hanjour's certification, particularly on this thread as it is about the demolition theory of the WTC.

You have repeatedly lied to this thread by even pursing Hanjour's background. After all your games, there is no PROOF, evidence, witnesses .... ANYTHING about the demolition theory you cling on to.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   18:08:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#939. To: buckeroo, AGAviator, ALL (#938)

You have repeatedly lied to this thread by even pursing Hanjour's background. After all your games, there is no PROOF, evidence, witnesses .... ANYTHING about the demolition theory you cling on to.

The proof concerning Hanjour (Hanjoor) is posted HERE buttercup, try joining the discussion, if you have anything to say...

And if you have anything to say concerning controlled demolition, try doing it HERE...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   18:42:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#940. To: FormerLurker, Agaviator, ALL (#939)

buttercup

Hey fruitcake, you have lost two threads (with over 900 posts, each) with your BS.... why should I even click on your conspiracy theory crap anymore.

You aren't worth my time.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   19:02:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#941. To: FormerLurker (#922) (Edited)

His name is spelt differenty than what is shown on the license and certificates.

Which is it, Hani Hanjoor, or Hani Hanjour?

It's spelled both ways in one short paragrah below in the very first article cited at #1 in the footnotes of AGA's Wikipedia link for Flt 77:

Excerpts from the NYT: A NATION CHALLENGED: THE SUSPECT; Man Traveled Across U.S. In His Quest to Be a Pilot

By DAVID W. CHEN
Published: September 18, 2001

He was a man, in short, who seemed to be everywhere yet nowhere at the same time.

[sic]

As is the case with many of the other suspected hijackers, the spelling of his name is unclear. To federal authorities, he was Hani Hanjour. But according to his Saudi Arabian international driver's license, he was Hani Saleh Hassan Hanjoor, born on Aug. 3, 1972. [end excerpts]

Has anybody ever interviewed these examiners and ask them why they gave out a license to someone who couldn't fly?

That's a very good question. So, among what's been established is that some guy named Daryl M. Strong evidently gave some guy who couldn't even takeoff or land correctly a temporary permit to fly and, not only does his name translate obscurely to:

An Earthling-Man on a planet in the Milky Way Galaxy, suspected as part of a deceptive, mindbending, plane-PsyOp staged in broad day to erroneously lead us astray

but his initials after the Earthling part are SHH, like a hushed-up secret.

I don't have time right now to locate my post on the ZioNIST report that clearly shows on its own pages (173-174, I think it is) how demolitions could easily have been planted at intervals and in several different ways during what might have appeared to be only routine building inspections. That's in addition to the Powerdown period and in addition to the many months of such access with Maintenance passes that the WTC Art Students-in-Residence had available to them to stage-prop and plant explosives in the buildings, so the arguments that it couldn't have been done covertly are baseless nonsense. Will try to find it and link it here as a reference as soon as I can get around to it.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-22   19:22:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#942. To: buckeroo, AGaviator, ALL (#940)

Hey fruitcake, you have lost two threads (with over 900 posts, each) with your BS.... why should I even click on your conspiracy theory crap anymore.

You won't touch those threads since your "arguments" are tossed out the window and proven wrong, especially your claims concerning Hanjour.

And BTW, a demoltions expert from CDI DOES say the WTC towers were probably taken out with controlled demolitions.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   19:35:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#943. To: buckeroo (#940)

You aren't worth my time.

There is NOTHING you can say that would refute the incontravertable evidence supplied on the Hani Hanjour thread.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   19:37:26 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#944. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#939)

The proof concerning Hanjour (Hanjoor) is posted HERE buttercup, try joining the discussion, if you have anything to say...

And if you have anything to say concerning controlled demolition, try doing it HERE...

Fuck you, Half Truther.

You are pwned!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   19:40:32 ET  (2 images) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#945. To: FormerLurker (#942)

You won't touch those threads since your "arguments" are tossed out the window and proven wrong, especially your claims concerning Hanjour.

Why should I provide more data and evidence countering your blabbering while your circle jerk friends, ignore the serous truth about the same. I have no more tolerance for your BS.

FACT1: Hanjour has proven FAA records of possessing a private pilot's license AND a commercial pilot's operating certificate.

This means YOUR conspiracy claims are invalid.

FACT2: AAFLT77 was not equipped with cabin door sensors.

This means YOUR obvious conspiracy claims are invalid.

FACT3: The WTC Towers fell at times far slower than "freefall time" no matter where you believe the calculation should be computed from.

This means you are full of hot-aire about YOUR demolition conspiracy theory.

You are a waste of time.... other than a belly laff from time to time.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   19:48:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#946. To: *9-11* (#945)


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-22   19:49:47 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#947. To: FormerLurker (#942)

And BTW, a demoltions expert from CDI DOES say the WTC towers were probably taken out with controlled demolitions

No facts, no data, no witnesses ... just an "expert" like your pal Stutts concerning "cabin doors"......

ROTFL

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   19:51:41 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#948. To: buckeroo (#945)

You are a waste of time.... other than a belly laff from time to time.

What nation are you from? I think Israel. Yeah, you seem to have about the IQ of an average Israeli. And of course, you are always a waste of time.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   19:54:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#949. To: buckeroo, AGAviator, GreyLmist, RickyJ, ALL (#945)

FACT1: Hanjour has proven FAA records of possessing a private pilot's license AND a commercial pilot's operating certificate. This means YOUR conspiracy claims are invalid.

Al Qaeda’s Top Gun

Willful Deception by the 9/11 Commission

by Jeremy R. Hammond / April 18th, 2010

Hani Hanjour is the hijacker who flew American Airlines Flight 77 into the Pentagon on the morning of September 11, 2001, according to the official account of terrorist attacks. "The lengthy and extensive flight training obtained by Hani Hanjour throughout his years in the United States makes it reasonable to believe that he was the pilot of Flight 77 on September 11," concluded FBI Director Robert S. Mueller.1 The story is that while Hanjour had difficulties learning to fly at first, he persevered, overcame his obstacles, and became an extraordinary enough pilot to be able to precisely hit his target after performing a difficult flight maneuver.

The New York Times, for instance, asserted that "Mr. Hanjour overcame the mediocrity of his talents as a pilot and gained enough expertise to fly a Boeing 757 into the Pentagon."2 The Washington Post similarly suggested Hanjour had the requisite skills, reporting that "Federal records show that a Hani Hanjoor obtained a commercial pilot's license in April 1999 with a rating to fly commercial jets."3

The 9/11 Commission expanded upon this narrative in its final report. It noted that Hanjour first came to the United States in 1991 to study English, then again in 1996 "to pursue flight training, after being rejected by a Saudi flight school. He checked out flight schools in Florida, California, and Arizona; and he briefly started at a couple of them before returning to Saudi Arabia." In 1997, after returning to Arizona, he "began his flight training there in earnest. After about three months, Hanjour was able to obtain his private pilot’s license. Several more months of training yielded him a commercial pilot certificate, issued by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in April 1999."4

Subsequently, "Hanjour reportedly applied to the civil aviation school in Jeddah after returning home, but was rejected." By the end of 2000, Hanjour was back in the U.S. and "began refresher training at his old school, Arizona Aviation. He wanted to train on multi-engine planes, but had difficulties because his English was not good enough. The instructor advised him to discontinue but Hanjour said he could not go home without completing the training. In early 2001, he started training on a Boeing 737 simulator at Pan Am International Flight Academy in Mesa. An instructor there found his work well below standard and discouraged him from continuing. Again, Hanjour persevered; he completed the initial training by the end of March 2001."5 A footnote in the report asserts that Hanjour was chosen specifically for targeting the Pentagon because he was "the operation’s most experienced pilot."6

John Ashcroft told reporters early in the investigation, "It is our belief and the evidence indicates that flight training was received in the United States and that their capacity to operate the aircraft was substantial. It’s very clear that these orchestrated coordinated assaults on our country were well-conducted and conducted in a technically proficient way. It is not that easy to land these kinds of aircraft at very specific locations with accuracy or to direct them with the kind of accuracy, which was deadly in this case."7

A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8 An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9

CBS News suggested that according to its sources, Flight 77, "flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn. Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a-half minutes. The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it’s clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10

The Washington Post similarly noted that the plane "was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm." Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11 The Post reported in another article that "After the attacks ... aviation experts concluded that the final maneuvers of American Airlines Flight 77 – a tight turn followed by a steep, accurate descent into the Pentagon – was the work of ‘a great talent ... virtually a textbook turn and landing.’"12

According to the report of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) cited by the 9/11 Commission, information from the flight data recorder recovered from the Pentagon crash site and radar data from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) show that the autopilot was disengaged "as the aircraft leveled near 7000 feet. Slight course changes were initiated, during which variations in altitude between 6800 and 8000 feet were noted. At 9:34 AM, the aircraft was positioned about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon, and started a right 330-degree descending turn to the right. At the end of the turn, the aircraft was at about 2000 feet altitude and 4 miles southwest of the Pentagon. Over the next 30 seconds, power was increased to near maximum and the nose was pitched down in response to control column movements. The airplane accelerated to approximately 460 knots (530 miles per hour) at impact with the Pentagon. The time of impact was 9:37:45 AM."13

The NTSB created a computer simulation of the flight from the flight data recorder information showing that the plane was actually at more than 8,100 feet and doing about 330 mph when it began its banking turn at 9:34 am. 14 At that point, the alleged pilot Hanjour could have simply decreased thrust, nosed down, and guided the plane into what would have been 29 acres, or 1,263,240 square feet of target area – the equivalent of about 22 football fields.15 From this angle, proverbially speaking, it would have been like trying to hit the side of a barn. Hanjour could have guided the plane into the enormous roof of the building, including the side of the building where the office of the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, was located, and where he happened to be that morning.16

Instead, the plane began a steep banking descent, circling downward in a 330- degree turn while dropping more than 5,600 feet in three minutes before re- aligning with the Pentagon and increasing to maximum thrust towards the building. The nose was kept down despite the increased lift from the acceleration, while flying so close to the ground that it clipped lamp posts along the interstate highway before plowing into the building at more than 530 mph, precisely hitting a target only 71 feet high, or just 26.5 feet taller than the Boeing 757 itself.17

In other words, by performing this maneuver, Hanjour reduced his vertical target area from a size comparable to the height of the Empire State Building to an area just 5 stories high. Instead of descending at an angle and plowing through the roof and floors of the building to cause the greatest possible number of casualties, including possibly taking out the Secretary of Defense, Hanjour hit wedge 1 of the Pentagon, opposite to Rumsfeld’s office, which happened to be under construction, and where the plane, travelling horizontally, had to penetrate through the steel- and kevlar-reinforced outer wall of the building’s southwest E-ring in addition to the numerous additional walls of the inner rings of the building.18

But even more problematic than the question of why Hanjour would perform this maneuver is the question of how he performed it. Perhaps the most incredible thing about this, the official account of what happened to Flight 77, is that Hani Hanjour was in reality such a horrible pilot that he had trouble handling a light single-engine aircraft and even just one month before the attacks was rejected at two different schools because he was judged too incompetent to rent a plane and fly solo.

As the Los Angeles Times ironically put it, "For someone suspected of steering a jetliner into the Pentagon, the 29-year-old man who used the name Hani Hanjour sure convinced a lot of people he barely knew how to fly."19

The Legend Unraveled

According to an FBI chronology for Hani Hanjour cited by the 9/11 Commission, Hanjour first travelled to the U.S. in 1991 on a visa issued in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor", in order to attend the University of Arizona’s Center for English as a Second Language. After returning to Saudi Arabia, he was again issued a visa at Jeddah in March, 1996. Back in the U.S., he attended classes at the ELS Language Center in Oakland, California from May until August. For a week in September, he took ground training lessons at the Sierra Aeronautical Academy Airline Training Center (SAAATC). From the end of September until mid-October, he purchased flight instruction from Cockpit Resources Management (CRM) in Scottsdale, Arizona. He then returned to Saudi Arabia once more.20 The Washington Post reported that according to Hanjour’s brother, Yasser, "Hanjour applied for a job at the state-owned Saudi Arabian Airlines but was told that he lacked sufficient grades.... He said the company told him it would reconsider his application only if he acquired a commercial pilot’s license in the United States."21 Yasser characterized Hanjour "as a frustrated young Saudi who wanted desperately – but never succeeded – to become a pilot for the Saudi national airline."22

Hanjour made plans to return to the U.S. and was issued a third visa in Jeddah in November 1997. His visa application contained red flags that should have resulted in his visa being denied. He failed to write in the name and address of the school he would be attending and provided no proof, as required by law, that he could furnish financial support for himself.23 With that application accepted, he reentered the U.S. and took pilot training from CRM again in December.24

It was at this time that, according the 9/11 Commission, Hanjour began his training "in earnest". But in reality, while at CRM, Hanjour never finished coursework required to get his certificate to be able to fly a single-engine aircraft.25 The New York Times reported that "he was a lackadaisical student who often cut class and never displayed the passion so common among budding commercial airline pilots."26 ABC News reported that when he returned to CRM that December, "He was trying for his private pilot’s license", but according to one of his instructor’s, he "was a very poor student who skipped homework and missed flights."27 The school’s attorney said that when Hanjour reapplied again later in 2000, "We declined to provide training to him because we didn’t think he was a good enough student when he was there in 1996 and 1997."28 The school’s owner described him as a "weak student" who "was wasting our resources."29 He said, "One of the first accomplishments of someone in flight school is to fly a plane without an instructor. It is a confidence-building procedure. He managed to do that. That is like being able to pull a car out and drive down the street. It is not driving on the freeway." Although it normally took three months for students to earn their private pilot’s certificate, Hanjour "did not accomplish that at my school." He added, "We didn’t want him back at our school because he was not serious about becoming a good pilot."30 The Chicago Tribune reported that at CRM, "A flight instructor said Hanjour left an impression by being unimpressive. ‘He was making weak progress,’ said Duncan Hastie, president of CRM."31

Hanjour switched schools, and from the end of December 1997 until April 1999, took flight lessons from Arizona Aviation in Mesa, Arizona.24 There, too, the 9/11 Commission’s own evidence contradicts the characterization that Hanjour was training "in earnest". An FBI document cited by the Commission stated that "Hanjour often participated in flying lessons for a one to two weeks [sic] and then would disappear for weeks or months at a time." The school "often had to call Hanjour in an effort to get Hanjour to pay his bill."32

Buried in the footnote for the paragraph suggesting Hanjour began training "in earnest", the 9/11 Commission report acknowledged that "Hanjour initially was nervous if not fearful in flight training" and that "His instructor described him as a terrible pilot."33 FBI documents cited by the Commission reveal that witnesses from the school told investigators that "Hanjour was a terrible pilot. Hanjour had difficulty understanding air traffic control, the methods for determining fuel management and had poor navigational skills." The FBI was told by one witness that "the only flying skill Hanjour could perform was flying the plane straight", and that "he did not believe Hanjour’s poor flying skills were due to a language barrier." He was "a very poor pilot who did not react to criticism very well. Hanjour was very, very nervous inside the cockpit to the point where Hanjour was almost fearful."32

In April 1998, Hanjour applied for his private pilot certificate with a single-engine rating, but he failed his test. One of the tasks documents show he would need to be reexamined for was "coordinated turns to headings"34 He tried again later that same month and this time received his private pilot certificate under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor," with an "Airplane Single Engine Land" rating.

In an apparent attempt to bolster the misleading characterization that Hanjour began training "in earnest", the 9/11 also stated that it took only "Several more months" to obtain his commercial pilot certificate. In fact, it took Hanjour another year of training before he managed to obtain that second certificate. On April 15, 1999, the FAA issued a commercial pilot certificate to him under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor."24 The certificate was issued by Daryl M. Strong, an independent contractor for the FAA, with an "Airplane Multiengine Land" rating. To obtain the certificate, Hanjour’s records show he flew his check ride in a Piper PA 23-150 "Apache", a four-seat twin-engine plane, which Hanjour was in command of for 14.8 hours of the 27 hours completed for the test.35

Contrary to the Washington Post’s assertion that this certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets", in fact it only allowed him to begin passenger jet training. Hanjour did so, only to fail the class.36 As the Associated Press reported, the "certification allowed him to begin passenger jet training at an Arizona flight school despite having what instructors later described as limited flying skills and an even more limited command of English."37

Furthermore, there remains an open question about whether Hanjour was actually qualified to receive that certificate in the first place. According to Heather Awsumb, a spokeswoman for Professional Airways Systems Specialists (PASS), a union that represents FAA employees, "The real problem is that regular oversight is handed over to private industry", since private contractors "receive between $200 and $300 for each check flight. If they get a reputation for being tough, they won’t get any business."38

To obtain a commercial pilot license, the applicant must "Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language." It seems highly dubious that Hanjour met that qualification, as the 9/11 Commission itself acknowledges that his English skills were inadequate. The certificate does not allow its holder to fly any commercial aircraft, but is issued for "the aircraft category and class rating sought". Hanjour only trained in light propeller planes like the single-engine Cessna and twin-engine Piper, and had never flown a jet aircraft.39

Additionally, commercial pilot certification is different from the Airline Transport Pilot certification held by airline captains. To obtain a commercial certificate with a multi-engine rating, Hanjour only needed to log in 250 hours of flight time, whereas to obtain an Airline Transport Pilot certificate, pilots are required to log 1,500 hours.40 Needless to say, having the ability to control a Cessna 172 or Piper Apache propeller plane does not translate into the ability to handle a Boeing 757 jetliner – and Hanjour could barely do the former.

Anyone unfamiliar with pilot certification could easily make the mistake of thinking a "commercial pilot license" meant Hanjour was qualified to fly a jet airliner, a conclusion reinforced by the Washington Post’s false assertion that his certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets." The 9/11 Commission report reinforced that false impression, only vaguely hinting at the truth six paragraphs later by saying that Hanjour subsequently "wanted to train on multi-engine planes". But the Commission then further obfuscated that truth by asserting that this was merely "refresher" training (a matter to which we will return).

Hanjour again left the country on April 28, 1999.24 As the 9/11 Commission report observed, when he returned to Saudi Arabia to apply in the civil aviation school in Jeddah, he was rejected.24 He subsequently began making preparations to return to the U.S. once again.24 In September 2000, Hanjour was denied a student visa after indicating that he wanted to remain in the U.S. for three years, and yet listed no address for where he intended to stay in Arizona.23 But he tried again for a student visa under the name "Hani Hanjour" later that same month. This time, he wrote that he wanted to stay for one year instead of three, and listed a specific address in California, not Arizona, where he said he was going on his first application. Despite these obvious red flags, he was issued the visa.23

He entered the U.S. in December and took more flight lessons that month at Arizona Aviation. From February until mid-March, he attended Pan Am International Flight Academy, also known as Jet Tech International, in Mesa, Arizona.24

It was upon his return to Arizona Aviation in 2000 that the 9/11 Commission stated he wanted "refresher" training on multi-engine planes but was advised to discontinue "because his English was not good enough." The implications are that Hanjour was merely brushing up on skills he had already achieved through previous flight training, and that the only reason he was advised not to continue was because of his poor language skills. But turning to the report’s footnote, it reads: "For his desire to train on multi-engine planes, his language difficulties, the instructor’s advice, and his reaction, see FBI report of investigation, interview of Rodney McAlear, Apr. 10, 2002."41 That document reveals that McAlear worked not for Arizona Aviation, but rather "instructed Hani Hanjour in ground school flight training at Jet Tech in the early 2001."42 The 9/11 Commission, by misleadingly suggesting that this occurred at Arizona Aviation, apparently intended to bolster the claim that this was "refresher" training by making it sound as though this occurred at Hanjour’s old school, when the truth is that it occurred when he was at a different school he'd never been to before.

The 9/11 Commission was also deceiving the public suggesting that the sole reason Hanjour was not able to complete his training on multi-engine planes was because his English wasn’t good enough. As already noted, an instructor at Arizona Aviation thought his earlier failings there were due primarily to his poor flight skills, and not because of his language inadequacies. More importantly, again, this training actually occurred at Jet Tech. Turning to the documentary record, as article in the New York Times entitled "A Trainee Noted for Incompetence" noted, his instructors there "found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so inadequate that they questioned whether his pilot’s license was genuine". As a result, they actually reported him to the FAA and requested confirmation that his certificate was legitimate. The staff there "feared that his skills were so weak that he could pose a safety hazard if he flew a commercial airliner." Marilyn Ladner, a vice president at the academy, told the Times, "There was no suspicion as far as evildoing. It was more of a very typical instructional concern that ‘you really shouldn’t be in the air.’"43

As already discussed, it remains an open question whether Hanjour was actually qualified to hold his commercial pilot certificate. It was at this time, as the Associated Press reported, that "Federal aviation authorities were alerted in early 2001 that an Arizona flight school believed one of the eventual Sept. 11 hijackers lacked the English and flying skills necessary for the commercial pilot’s license he already held, flight school and government officials say."44 The manager of JetTech said, "I couldn’t believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had."45

Whereas the 9/11 Commission suggested that, because he "persevered", Hanjour "completed the initial training", thus leading the public to the conclusion that his skills had advanced accordingly, the Times offered a very different account: "Ultimately administrators at the school told Mr. Hanjour that he would not qualify for the advanced certificate. But the ex- employee said Mr. Hanjour continued to pay to train on a simulator for Boeing 737 jets. ‘He didn’t care about the fact that he couldn’t get through the course,’ the ex-employee said. Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot. ‘I’m still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,’ the former employee said. ‘He could not fly at all.’"43

Another Times article similarly noted that when Hanjour enrolled in February 2001 "at a Phoenix flight school for advanced simulator training to learn how to fly an airliner, a far more complicated task than he had faced in earning a commercial license", his "instructors thought he was so bad a pilot and spoke such poor English that they contacted the Federal Aviation Administration to verify that his license was not a fake."46

According to FAA inspector Michael Gonzales, when Pan Am International Flight Academy contacted the FAA to verify that Hanjour’s license was valid, "There should have been a stop right then and there." The Associated Press reported that Gonzales "said Hanjour should have been re-examined as a commercial pilot, as required by federal law."37 But that was not done. Instead, the FAA inspector who "even sat next to the hijacker, Hani Hanjour, in one of the Arizona classes" and "checked records to ensure Hanjour’s 1999 pilot’s license was legitimate" concluded that "no other action was warranted" and actually suggested that Hanjour get a translator to help him complete his class. "He offered a translator," said the school’s manager, who "was surprised" by the suggestion. "Of course, I brought up the fact that went against the rules that require a pilot to be able to write and speak English fluently before they even get their license."45

As with the fact that multiple visa applications from Hanjour should have been denied, the 9/11 Commission made no mention of any of this. One would think that a commission tasked with investigating the events of 9/11 with the goal of assessing what went wrong and fixing the system to prevent any loss of life in the future would have looked into who issued Hanjour visas in Jeddah and why the red flags were ignored. One would think that misconduct from FAA officials and contractors that allowed a terrorist to improperly obtain certification to fly a plane would also not be outside of the purview of the investigation – yet the Commission's report is absolutely silent on this.

Turning to the footnote for the claim that Hanjour "completed" training at Jet Tech, one can read (emphasis added): "For his training at Pan Am International Flight Academy and completion by March 2001, see FBI report ‘Hijackers Timeline,’ Dec. 5, 2003 (Feb. 8, 2001, entries...)". But turning to that source, the FBI timeline does not state that Hanjour "completed" the training, only that he "ended" the course on March 16.47 The truth is that, as the Washington Post reported, "Hanjour flunked out after a month" at Jet Tech.12 Offering corroboration for that account, the Associated Press similarly reported that "Hanjour did not finish his studies at JetTech and left the school."48

The 9/11 Commission additionally noted that Hanjour had later gone to Air Fleet Training Systems in New Jersey and "requested to fly the Hudson Corridor" along the Hudson River, which passed the World Trade Center. He was permitted to fly the route once, "but his instructor declined a second request because of what he considered Hanjour’s poor piloting skills", the Commission admits. However, the report continues, "Shortly thereafter, Hanjour switched to Caldwell Flight Academy in Fairfield, New Jersey, where he rented small aircraft on several occasions during June and July. In one such instance on July 20, Hanjour – likely accompanied by Hazmi – rented a plane from Caldwell and took a practice flight from Fairfield to Gaithersburg, Maryland, a route that would have allowed them to fly near Washington, D.C. Other evidence suggests Hanjour may even have returned to Arizona for flight simulator training earlier in June."49

But here, the pattern of deception continues by omission of other relevant facts. The report does not explain that when Hanjour was permitted to fly the Hudson Corridor in May of 2001, unlike his subsequent rental flights, it was with an instructor on a check ride, and not a solo flight.24 By saying his instructor there "considered" Hanjour’s skills to be poor, the 9/11 Commission implied this was merely a subjective judgment, but that others considered him perfectly capable. Although it would have been a standard practice, there’s no indication from FBI records that Caldwell actually required him to go on a check ride before renting the plane. Even more significantly, the 9/11 Commission omitted altogether the fact that, while Hanjour was allowed to rent from Caldwell Flight Academy, he was rejected yet again by yet another school shortly thereafter that the record shows did require a check ride.

In August 2001, less than one month before 9/11, Hanjour took flight lessons at Freeway Airport in Bowie, Maryland.24 As the New York Times observed, Hanjour "still seemed to lack proficiency at flying". When he showed up "asking to rent a single-engine plane", he attempted three flights with two different instructors, and yet "was unable to prove that he had the necessary skills" to be allowed to rent the plane. "He seemed rusty at everything," said Marcel Bernard, the chief flight instructor at the school.26 The Washington Post similarly reported that to "the flight instructors at Freeway Airport in Bowie", Hanjour "was just a bad pilot." And "after supervising Hanjour on a series of oblong circles above the airport and Chesapeake Bay, the instructors refused to pass him because his skills were so poor, Bernard said. ‘I feel darn lucky it went the way it did,’ Bernard said, crediting his instructors for their good judgment and high standards."50 The London Telegraph also reported that Hanjour claimed to have 600 hours of flight time, "but performed so poorly on test flights that instructors would not let him fly alone."51 Newsday reported that when flight instructors Sheri Baxter and Ben Conner took Hanjour on three check rides, "they found he had trouble controlling and landing the single-engine Cessna 172."52 The Los Angeles Times reported, "‘We have a level of standards that we hold all our pilots to, and he couldn’t meet it," said the manager of the flight school. Hanjour could not handle basic air maneuvers, the manager said."19

The deception does not end with this rather egregious omission. As noted, the 9/11 Commission also suggested that Hanjour obtained further training in a flight simulator, again, in an apparent attempt to exaggerate his training. But a review of the records shows that the preponderance of evidence indicates Hanjour was actually in New Jersey throughout the time period in question in June. FBI records show that on May 31, 2001, after having been rejected at Air Fleet Training Systems, Hanjour rented a Cessna 172 at Caldwell Flight Academy, where he "made an error taxing [sic] the airplane upon his return." On June 6, he rented a single-engine aircraft. The FBI placed him in Paterson, New Jersey, on June 10. Then he rented a plane again on June 11, 18, and 19. The FBI has Hanjour (along with Nawaf Al-Hazmi) obtaining a mailbox at Mailboxes, Etc. in Fort Lee, New Jersey, on June 26, and opening a bank account and making an ATM withdrawal in New Jersey on June 27.53

Somewhere in there, the 9/11 Commission would have the public believe that "evidence suggests" Hanjour again trained on a simulator in Arizona. To begin with, the simulator at the Sawyer School of Aviation in Phoenix was for small aircraft and was nothing like the cockpit of a Boeing 757 – another fact omitted by the Commission.54 But this perhaps becomes a moot point when one realizes that the evidence shows Hanjour never left New Jersey. Turning to the footnote for this claim, the Commission stated that documents from Sawyer "show Hanjour joining the flight simulator club on June 23, 2001". But, the footnote acknowledges, "the documents are inconclusive, as there are no invoices or payment records for Hanjour, while such documents do exist for the other three" who joined the club at that time. The actual evidence thus demonstrates clearly that while Hanjour may have signed up (something which may have been possible over the phone or via the internet), he did not actually attend. The footnote further acknowledges that "Documentary evidence for Hanjour, however, shows that he was in New Jersey for most of June, and no travel records have been recovered showing that he returned to Arizona after leaving with Hazmi in March."55

The second piece of "evidence" that "suggests" Hanjour took further flight simulator training is a Sawyer employee who "identified Hanjour as being there during that time period, though she was less than 100 percent sure." The FBI document cited in the footnote for that claim was obtained by Intelwire.com, but it is almost entirely redacted, so it’s impossible to verify the actual nature of this eyewitness testimony.56 But another document cited further into the same footnote also refers to the eyewitness from Sawyer, who described the four men who had joined the club. The first "UNSUB" (unidentified subject) was "short and stocky". The second was 5’9"-5’10", 170 pounds, and "medium build". The third was 5’8", 170 pounds, and "medium build". And the fourth was 5’6"-5’7" with a beard and mustache. Other eyewitness descriptions for Hanjour offered in the same FBI document have him as being no more than 5’6" (one witness from Arizona Aviation, the document notes, "confirmed that he was only about 5’0" tall"), 140-150 pounds, and very slight and thin, with short, curly hair. This clearly rules out the first three subjects, leaving only the detail-lacking fourth description as being the only one possibly matching Hanjour’s description. But the details given are far too vague to suggest a positive identification, particularly given the witness’s own admission that she wasn’t sure if it was Hanjour.57

Even more significantly, that same FBI document reveals that it was not during the FBI’s initial interview with the witness that she identified that fourth "unsub" as Hanjour, as the 9/11 Commission report implies by citing the report from the FBI’s initial interview for that claim in the footnote. Rather, it was later, during a second interview that occurred after the names and images of the hijackers had been shown repeatedly in the media that she picked Hanjour’s out of a photo lineup. The FBI summary of that later interview states that according to the witness, Hanjour "has the same general characteristics and is very similar appearing as the person she saw at Sawyer.... However, she could not be 100% sure."57

The third and final piece of "evidence" is another witness who identified Hanjour as being "in the Phoenix area during the summer of 2001", citing the FBI document just discussed, which is redacted enough that this claim cannot be readily verified. But the document does show additionally that Hanjour’s membership was good only from June 23 until August 8, at which time it expired.57

Thus, the 9/11 Commission would have the public believe that sometime after June 19, Hanjour went from the east coast to Arizona without leaving any paper trail (i.e. airline or car rental records, ATM withdrawals, etc.), signed up for a two-week flight simulator club on June 23 without leaving any record he ever actually paid or even showed up (whereas records did exist for other members), only to change his mind and return again to be back in New Jersey with Nawaf Al-Hazmi three days later. In other words, what the evidence actually suggests is that the eyewitness testimony is unreliable and that, contrary to the Commission’s assertion, Hanjour never left New Jersey during that time.

There is a clear pattern of misleading and untruthful statements in the 9/11 Commission’s final report that cannot be dismissed as mere error. Rather, the evidence is incontrovertible that the Commission willfully and deliberately sought to present a falsified story of the alleged hijacker Hani Hanjour; not to relate the facts to the public, but rather to cement a legend in the public mind; not to investigate and draw conclusions based on the facts, but to start with a conclusion – the official account of 9/11 – and manipulate the facts to suit the government’s own conspiracy theory.

The Fiction Perpetuated

The mainstream media has dealt with the problematic nature of the official story in a number of ways. As already seen, one method has simply been to exaggerate characterizations of Hanjour's competence. The official story as related by the New York Times that Hanjour "overcame the mediocrity of his talents" is not merely unsupportable by the evidence, but stands in stark contrast to the available known facts. The legend is also maintained by the mainstream media through false claims, such as the Washington Post’s assertion that Hanjour’s pilot certificate allowed him to fly commercial jets. While the Los Angeles Times suggested Hanjour "convinced a lot of people he barely knew how to fly", the underlying assumption of the article was that, despite his apparent ineptitude in the cockpit, he really did know how to fly. The public is apparently supposed to believe that he was merely pretending to an incompetent pilot even though he was actually quite skillful. The mainstream media have a tendency to mock and ridicule anyone who dares even to just question the official narrative, all the while putting forth such utter absurdities as this.

As the evidence surfaced that Hanjour was not the pilot extraordinaire the public was initially told he must have been in order to carry out the attack on the Pentagon, another narrative began to emerge. While most of the mainstream media simply ignored the evidence, or, as in the case of the New York Times, drew conclusions that were contradicted by some of their own reporting. In no small part due to the 9/11 Commission report’s findings, the fiction remained firmly embedded in the minds of the public that Hanjour, through determination and perseverance, overcame all obstacles in order to acquire the skills necessary to pilot Flight 77 into the Pentagon.

There was, however, at least some acknowledgment of the major hole in that theory. A few media reports did acknowledge that Hanjour was a horrible pilot and that all evidence demonstrated that he never "overcame his mediocrity". But rather than calling the official theory into question in doing so, these accounts simply offered a revisionist account in order to maintain the legend.

Gone was the story that the hijackers' "capacity to operate the aircraft was substantial", that the attacks were "conducted in a technically proficient way", that "It is not that easy to land these kinds of aircraft at very specific locations with accuracy or to direct them with the kind of accuracy, which was deadly in this case". No more was the expert opinion that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators", that Flight 77's final maneuver was "a difficult high-speed descending turn". Vanished was the view that Flight 77 "was flown with extraordinary skill", even so that it "reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver", that this was evidence of "a great talent" in the cockpit.

In the place of that conventional wisdom, the new narrative that began to emerge in some accounts was that it really wasn't that difficult a maneuver after all, and even a novice pilot like Hani Hanjour – or anyone who’s ever flown a small aircraft and perhaps spent some time playing a flight simulator game, for that matter – could have, with just a bit of luck, pulled it off.

The New American presented this new narrative by quoting Ronald D. Bull, a retired United Airlines pilot, as saying, "It’s not that difficult, and certainly not impossible." But Bull was apparently not speaking specifically with regard to the Pentagon, as he then added, "If you’re doing a suicide run, like these guys were doing, you’d just keep the nose down and push like the devil." In this case, Bull seems to have had the attacks on the World Trade Center, and not the Pentagon, in mind. Moreover, even if Bull also had the Pentagon in mind, he was obviously only considering a situation where the pilot was flying in a straight line towards his target. Thus, if he was also speaking with regard to the Pentagon, he was quite apparently uninformed as to the actual flight path the plane took.

Similarly quoted was George Williams, a pilot for Northwest Airlines for 38 years, who said, "I don’t see any merit to those arguments [that Hanjour couldn’t have flown Flight 77 into the Pentagon]. The Pentagon is a pretty big target and I’d say hitting it was a fairly easy thing to do."58 It’s true that the Pentagon was a very big target. But Williams was apparently similarly aware, when he was asked to comment, of the plane’s final descending maneuver; or of the fact that this maneuver put the plane on a path that reduced the margin to a mere 26.5 feet (a few feet lower, the plane crashes into the ground; a few feet higher, the plane overshoots the target); or that the plane wasn't flying at a constant airspeed, but was rather accelerating rapidly, thus creating more lift that needed compensating for with subtle precision in order to stay within that margin for error; or that the plane wasn't just ambling along at something near landing speed, but was screaming along at an incredible 530 mph. To put that into perspective, cruising speed for airliners is about 600 mph at 30,000 feet of altitude, where the air is less dense. At sea-level that would be equivalent to about 300 mph hour, about double safe landing speed. A velocity of 530 mph at sea-level would be supersonic speed if it were possible to maintain at cruising altitude.59

In both cases, the expert pilots seem to assume that Hanjour simply lined up the hijacked plane and flew a straight line into the building at a speed at which an aircraft could more easily be controlled by an inexperienced pilot. Needless to say, neither pilot’s statements accurately reflect the actual situation with regard to Flight 77. There is no indication that the New American bothered to fill either Bull or Williams in on the specifics of what Flight 77 actually did when it sought them out to "debunk" the assertion that Hanjour wasn’t a capable enough pilot to have pulled it off.

Offering a similar revisionist account, airline pilot Patrick Smith, writing for Salon, said that it was one of "the more commonly heard myths that pertain to the airplanes and their pilots" that "the terrorist pilots lacked the skill and training to fly jetliners into their targets. This is an extremely popular topic with respect to American 77. Skyjacker Hani Hanjour, a notoriously untalented flier who never piloted anything larger than a four- seater, seemed to pull off a remarkable series of aerobatic maneuvers before slamming into the Pentagon." Smith’s answer to this was simply to flip conventional wisdom on its head. He opined that "If anything, his loops and turns and spirals above the nation’s capital revealed him to be exactly the shitty pilot he by all accounts was. To hit the Pentagon squarely he needed only a bit of luck, and he got it, possibly with the help from the 757’s autopilot. Striking a stationary object – even a large one like the Pentagon – at high speed and from a steep angle is very difficult. To make the job easier, he came in obliquely, tearing down light poles as he roared across the Pentagon’s lawn." Hanjour had all the skill that was required, Smith suggested, adding "You can learn it at home."60

So, according to this narrative, Hanjour’s "textbook" "fighter jet maneuver" in a Boeing 757 is evidence that he was a "shitty pilot" and any pilot wannabe with some rudimentary training and maybe just a little bit of luck could have done it. It was easier to hit a target merely 5 stories high at a nearly horizontal angle ("obliquely" as Smith misleadingly claims), than to simply point the nose down to hit a target the size of 22 football fields. These remarks are perhaps not so much the result of an attempt to challenge conventional wisdom as they were simply demonstrative that Smith made very little effort to actually understand the actual nature of Flight 77’s final flight path before writing that it is a "myth" that Hanjour was not a pilot capable of having performed that maneuver. His characterization of Hanjour’s final maneuver as "loops and turns and spirals" indicates that Smith was generalizing without having any real concept of what Flight 77 actually did in its final minutes. A further indication that Smith really just didn’t know what he was talking about was his suggestion that Hanjour "possibly" had "help from the 757’s autopilot" in pulling off those final maneuvers, which is both patently ridiculous and demonstrably false.

The German magazine Der Spiegel also made the rare attempt to actually address this issue, but found it sufficient enough merely to opine that "This is not difficult to accomplish" and similarly suggesting practically anyone could do it since it was "a maneuver that can be practiced with any flight simulator software."61 End of discussion.

The public was originally told that attack on the Pentagon obviously required a fairly high level of sophistication in the cockpit. It was conventional wisdom that being able to maneuver a large jetliner required a certain level of training, a certain level of skill. The public was then told that Hanjour was the pilot among the 19 hijackers who had the most training and the greatest piloting skill. As the facts emerged and it became evident that Hanjour did not have the requisite level of skill, the government chose to manipulate the evidence in order to maintain its theory. The 9/11 Commission served to cement the legend of Hani Hanjour into history, and the mainstream media, for the most part, accepted and maintained that legend even when much of their own reporting revealed facts that contradicted it. In a few cases, there was acknowledgment that Hanjour was a "shitty" pilot after all, but in such cases the official account was still maintained by throwing common sense out the window and reversing the original consensus that it must have taken a skilled pilot to have performed that final, fatal maneuver.

Perhaps this revisionist retelling of the official story is the correct one. Perhaps the conventional wisdom that it would actually take a skilled pilot to competently control a large jetliner is really wrong. Perhaps it’s true that any second-rate pilot who has trouble controlling even a Cessna-172 could get into the cockpit of a Boeing 757 and do what Hani Hanjour is said to have done. Or, on the other hand, perhaps the revisionist account is just as much nonsense as the story that Hanjour "persevered" and "overcame his mediocrity".

Whichever the case, many questions about the events of 9/11 remain to this day unanswered, despite the appointment of the 9/11 Commission ostensibly to investigate and provide answers to those questions. And whichever the case, the conclusion is inescapable that the 9/11 Commission deliberately attempted to deceive the public about the piloting capabilities of Hani Hanjour.

Why?

  1. Statement for the Record FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III Joint Intelligence Committee Inquiry, September 26, 2002. [<-]
  2. Jim Yardley and Jo Thomas, “For Agent in Phoenix, the Cause of Many Frustrations Extended to His Own Office," New York Times, June 19, 2002. [<-]
  3. FBI Names 19 Men as Hijackers,” Washington Post, September 15, 2001; Page A01. [<-]
  4. Working Draft Chronology of Events for Hijackers and Associates,” FBI, November 14, 2003 (hereafter “FBI Hijackers Timeline”), p. 41. The complete FBI timeline is available for download online. See: “Newly Released FBI Timeline Reveals New Information about 9/11 Hijackers that Was Ignored by 9/11 Commission”, HistoryCommons.org, February 14, 2008. The timeline reads: “FAA issued Commercial Pilot certificate #2576802 to [redacted] [sic].” The “[sic]” is in the original. Why the name “Hani Saleh Hanjoor” is redacted is unclear. [<-]
  5. The Final Report of the National commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, p. 225-227 (hereafter “9/11 Commission Report”). [<-]
  6. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 530. [<-]
  7. Global Security, September 14, 2001. [<-]
  8. Hijackers ‘knew what they were doing,’” CNN, September 12, 2001. The quote is CNN’s paraphrase of what the flight expert told them. [<-]
  9. ‘Get These Planes on the Ground’: Air Traffic Controllers Recall Sept. 11,83; ABC News, October 24, 2001. [<-]
  10. Prima ry Target: 189 Dead Or Missing From Pentagon Attack”, CBS News, September 21, 2001. [<-]
  11. Marc Fisher and Don Phillips, “On Flight 77: ‘Our Plane is Being Hijacked,’” Washington Post, September 12, 2001; Page A01 [<-]
  12. Steve Fainaru and Alia Ibrahim, “Mysterious Trip to Flight 77 Cockpit,” Washington Post, September 10, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  13. Flight Path Study – American Airlines Flight 77,” NTSB, February 19, 2002. [<-]
  14. A copy of the NTSB video was obtained by the group Pilots for 9/11 Truth. It is available for viewing on YouTube (accessed April 8, 2010). [<-]
  15. The Pentagon,” GlobalSecurity.org. [<-]
  16. Don Van Natta and Lizette Alvarez, “A Hijacked Boeing 757 Slams Into the Pentagon, Halting the Government,” New York Times, September 12, 2001. [<-]
  17. The Pentagon,” Great Buildings Online (accessed March 27, 2010). Boeing 757 Technical Specifications from Boeing.com (accessed Marcy 27, 2010). [<-]
  18. DoD News Briefing on Pentagon Renovation,” Department of Defense, September 15, 2001. [<-]
  19. Los Angeles Times, September 27, 2001. [<- ] [<-]
  20. FBI Summary about Alleged Flight 77 Hijacker Hani Hanjour”, Scribd.com (accessed April 6, 2010; herafter “FBI Timeline for Hani Hanjour”). This document was cited by the 9/11 Commission. The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) possesses the Commission’s records and has released many documents to the public. See: “9/11 Commission Records,” NARA (accessed March 28, 2010). Many of the released records are available online at Scribd.com. See: “9/11 Document Archive,” Scribd.com (accessed March 28, 2010). [<-]
  21. Washington Post, September 10, 2002. [<- ]
  22. Charles M. Sennott, “Why bin Laden plot relied on Saudi hijackers,” Boston Globe, March 3, 2002. [<-]
  23. Joel Mowbray, “Visas that Should Have Been Denied,” National Review Online, October 9, 2002. [<-] [<-] [<-]
  24. FBI Timeline for Hani Hanjour. [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-]
  25. Thomas Frank, “Tracing Trail of Hijackers,” Newsday, September 23, 2001. [<-]
  26. David W. Chen, “Man Traveled Across U.S. In His Quest to Be a Pilot,” New York Times, September 18, 2001. [<-] [<-]
  27. Who Did It? FBI Links Names to Terror Attacks,” ABC News, October 4, 2001. [<-]
  28. Newsday, September 23, 2001. [<-]
  29. “Hanjour an unlikely terrorist,” Cape Cod Times, October 21, 2001. [<-]
  30. Carol J. Williams, John-Thor Dahlburg, and H.G. Reza, “Mainly, They Just Waited,” Los Angeles Times, September 27, 2001. [<-]
  31. V. Dion Haynes, “Algerian man didn’t try to hide, neighbors say,” Chicago Tribune, October 2, 2001. [<-]
  32. FBI Summary of Information, Lofti Raissi”, January 4, 2004. [<-] [<-]
  33. 9/11 Commission Report p. 520. [<-]
  34. Hanjour’s FAA airman documentation from the 9/11 Commission records released by NARA are available online at Scribd. [<-]
  35. Hanjour’s FAA airman records are available online at Scribd. [<-]
  36. Kellie Lunney, “FAA contractors approved flight licenses for Sept. 11 suspect,” Government Executive, June 13, 2002. [<-]
  37. Report: 9/11 Hijacker Bypassed FAA,” Associated Press, September 30, 2004 [<-] [<-]
  38. Government Executive, June 13, 2002. [<-]
  39. The 9/11 Commission Report, p. 12. The report notes that “To our knowledge none of them [the hijackers] had ever flown an actual airliner before.” [<-]
  40. Code of Federal Regulations, Title 14, Sections 61.123, 61.129. Present requirements in these regards are the same as they were when Hanjour obtained his certificate. See the version revised as of January 1, 1999. [<-]
  41. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 521- 522. [<-]
  42. FBI FD-302, James Charles McRae,” April 10, 2001. [<-]
  43. Jim Yardley, “A Trainee Noted for Incompetence,” New York Times, May 4, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  44. FAA Probed, Cleared Sept. 11 Hijacker in Early 2001,” Associated Press, May 10, 2002. [<-]
  45. David Hancock, “FAA Was Alerted to Sept. 11 Hijacker,” CBS News, May 10, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  46. Jim Yardley and Jo Thomas, “For Agent in Phoenix, the Cause of Many Frustrations Extended to His Own Office,” New York Times, June 19, 2001 [<-]
  47. FBI Hijacker’s Timeline, p.123. [<-]
  48. Associated Press, May 10, 2002. [<-]
  49. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 242. [<-]
  50. Brooke A. Masters, Leef Smith, and Michael D. Shear, “Dulles Hijackers Made Maryland Their Base,” Washington Post, September 19, 2001; Page A01. [<-]
  51. Piecing together the shadowy lives of the hijackers,” Telegraph, September 20, 2001. [<-]
  52. Thomas Frank, “Tracing Trail of Hijackers,” Newsday, November 24, 2004. [<-]
  53. FBI Hijackers Timeline, p. 150, 154, 156-157, 161-162, 166-167. [<-]
  54. Jacques Billeaud, “More Arizona ties to terror suspect,” Associated Press, September 20, 2001. [<-]
  55. "9/11 Commission Report," p. 529. The document cited by the 9/11 Commission was obtained by Intelwire.com. “FBI Memorandum, Sawyer Aviation records”, October 12, 2001. [<-]
  56. FBI FD-302, Interrogation of Tina Beth Arnold (Sawyer Aviation) ,” FBI, October 17, 2001. [<-]
  57. FBI Summary of Information, Lotfi Raissi,” FBI, January 4, 2004 [<-] [<-] [<-]
  58. William F. Jasper, “9-11 Conspiracy Fact & Fiction," The New American, May 2, 2005. [<-]
  59. Airplane Flight: How High? How Fast? ” NASA (accessed April 17, 2010). Relative airspeed is calculated by the equation B d v2 = W, where factor B depends on the profile of a given set of wings (larger wings produce more lift), d is air density, v is velocity, and W is the airplane’s weight. At 30,000 feet, air density is about ¼ that at sea level, allowing an airliner to double its speed to produce the same amount of lift. [<-]
  60. Patrick Smith, “A sk the pilot,” Salon, May 19, 2006. [<-]
  61. What Really Happened: The 9/11 Fact File,” Der Spiegel, December 20, 2006. [<-]

Jeremy R. Hammond is the editor of Foreign Policy Journal, a website providing news, analysis, and opinion from outside the standard framework provided by government officials and the corporate media. He was among the recipients of the 2010 Project Censored Awards for outstanding investigative journalism and is the author of The Rejection of Palestinian Self- Determination. You can contact him at: jeremy@foreignpolicyjournal.com. Read other articles by Jeremy, or visit Jeremy's website.

This article was posted on Sunday, April 18th, 2010 at 9:00am and is filed under 9-11, Disinformation, FBI, General.



"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   19:58:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#950. To: buckeroo (#945)

FACT3: The WTC Towers fell at times far slower than "freefall time" no matter where you believe the calculation should be computed from.

This means you are full of hot-aire about YOUR demolition conspiracy theory.

15 SECONDS is NOT "far slower" than a "freefall time" of 9 SECONDS, halfwit.


9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: Explosive Evidence at WTC Cited by Former CDI Employee
Source: Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth
URL Source: http://www.ae911truth.org/news/41- a ... ed-by-former-cdi-employee.html
Published: Jun 24, 2010
Author: Darcy Wearing and Richard Gage, AIA
Post Date: 2010-07-22 13:31:56 by FormerLurker
Ping List: *9-11*
Keywords: 911, WTC Collapse, Controlled Demolition
Views: 115
Comments: 21

Explosive Evidence at WTC Cited by Former CDI EmployeePDFPrintE-mail
News - News Releases By AE911Truth
Written by Darcy Wearing and Richard Gage, AIA   
Thursday, 24 June 2010 18:55

Having had the privilege of speaking with Tom Sullivan, an actual explosive-charge placement technician, we have some new insights to pass along as to how controlled demolition works, where it started, and the effect that 9/11 had on the demolition industry. Sullivan gained his experience as an employee of the leading firm in this field, Controlled Demolition, Inc. (CDI).  Sullivan stresses though “I do not in anyway represent CDI and what I have to say is based on my own experience and training,”

Sullivan attended high school with Doug Loizeaux of the Loizeaux family. The Loizeaux family, through the father Jack, independently started the whole controlled-demolition industry and turned it into a highly profitable business. Sullivan, before he became connected to CDI, was an independent photographer during his early years in Maryland. He would be sent to CD sites and take still pictures of the jobs.  He became infatuated with the CD industry. The time came when he would do both, being the placer of the “cutter charges” on the primary joints, and photographing the jobs for promoting the business. Soon he would switch to full-time employee status of CDI -- as verified by AE911Truth’s verification team.

"It was very interesting, but also very hard work, long hours, especially in the cold weather," Sullivan reflects. He stated that the days began early, around 6 a.m., and they would work until the sun was down. Sullivan had the experience of preparing a building by placing the cutter charges throughout the primary joints, and then, of course, watching it all come down.

Sullivan notes that many weeks are required to “prep,” or weaken the buildings before demolitions. Steel frame buildings don’t just fall into their footprints at free-fall without major work throughout the building – even some before the placement of explosives.  Sullivan emphasized as an aside, “Fire cannot bring down steel-framed high rises -- period.”

One of Sullivan’s most exciting jobs was the colossal Kingdome in whose reinforced concrete structure he personally placed hundreds of deadly explosive charges. 

Working for CDI was, Sullivan stated, “a very unique experience.”  He also said, "they were a close-knit family -- referring to the familial values of the Loizeauxs." “I learned from watching," said Sullivan. "There is no school that will teach you this, just hands on hard work." Sullivan took hundreds of project photos, through which he developed a deep passion for the trade.

When asked, what made CDI the best in the business, he commented, “their family had all the experience because they ’invented’ the art of CD. They spent years traveling around the world, showing and educating people how this art form works.”

Unfortunately, the business came to a screeching halt after 9/11. "People were scared -- if they were to hear a loud bang it was probably some kind of terrorist attack," says Sullivan in frustration. "Fear took over and there was no more business." Even Mark Loizeaux (CDI’s President) has been quoted as saying 9/11 ruined him. Sullivan had no choice but to leave CDI. Curiously, CDI had a role in the WTC cleanup through a subcontract under Tully Construction. On September 22, 2001, CDI submitted a 25-page "preliminary" document to New York City's Department of Design and Construction, a plan related to the removal and recycling of the steel. [¹]

Sullivan stated that he knew from the first day that the destruction of World Trade Center Building 7 on 9/11 was a classic controlled implosion. Asked how he thought it might have been done he posited, “looking at the building it wouldn’t be a problem -- once you gain access to the elevator shafts…then a team of expert loaders would have hidden access to the core columns and beams.  The rest can be accomplished with just the right kind of explosives for the job. Thermite can be used as well.”

Brent Blanchard, the photographer from the controlled demolition company Protec, has said, in criticism of the CD theory, that there would have had to been detonation cords strung all over the place and casings left in the rubble pile from the cutter charges.  So we asked for a response from Sullivan.  He noted that:

Remote wireless detonators have been available for years. Look at any action movie -- and of course the military has them.  The reason most contractors don’t use them is that they are too expensive -- but in a project with a huge budget it would be no problem. As for the casings -- everyone in the industry, including Blanchard, would know that RDX explosive cutter charges are completely consumed when they go off -- nothing is left. And in the case of Thermite cutter charges, that may also be the case. Thermite self-consuming cutter charge casings have been around since first patented back in 1984.

We asked Sullivan if all the floors in WTC  7 would have to be loaded with explosives in order for a successful controlled demolition.  He responded,

No, with steel framed buildings you really need only to load the bottom third to bring the building down. While at CDI we had a job in Hartford Conn, the CNG building, where we did just that.  And it worked out beautifully.

Recalling that Ron Craig, a Hollywood movie explosions expert claimed in a debate with us, that there would have been many blocks of broken windows if it were a controlled demolition.  Sullivan reflected,

The key word here is controlled demolition – in other words careful placement of charges -- always focused and precise.  We are not talking about setting off a bomb here.  The amount and type of explosives is an art and collateral damage can often be completely avoided.

We asked about Shyam Sunder, the lead investigator of NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) who claimed publically in his infamous press conference at the “unveiling” of the Final Report on the Collapse of World Trade Center Building 7 that there would have been a loud boom coming from a massive explosion if this had been a controlled demolition, and asked him about that.  Sullivan said, “With any implosion there is never just one big explosion but rather waves of smaller explosions -- not unlike the percussion section in a symphony - - as each loaded floor is progressively set off.”

And as Sullivan watched the towers collapse that day, like so many did, he pondered at how fast it all took place, and how suddenly and symmetrically they were brought down. "I knew it was an explosive event as soon as I saw it, there was no question in my mind," said Sullivan. Most of us agree -- it's not by chance that the first tower just happened to collapse -- then the second in the same manner. What convinced him completely is when he watched Tower 7 fall that day, "I mean, come on, it was complete destruction. I've seen buildings fall like that for years -- that was the end game for me." Keep in mind that Sullivan did this for a living for several years -- it is like second nature for him to see this type of demolition. If anybody would know, it should be him.  But we went ahead and asked him, “Is there any chance that normal office fires (the official cause of the ’collapse’) could have been responsible for the smooth, symmetrical, free-fall acceleration of building 7? “Not a chance,” he retorted. We just wanted to be sure.

When we asked him if he followed any of the 9/11 Commission hearings or that of the NIST reporting, he had the same answer for both "I have no tolerance for people who lie to me about what I know to be true. I threw my hands up in disgust and never watched another hearing after the first. As for NIST, I didn't even watch because I knew what to expect." He did however follow the final report on the collapse of Tower 7 and said it angered him that they could actually convince so many of their fraudulent claims.

Sullivan first came into contact with AE911Truth through a friend that sent him the 9/11: Blueprint for Truth DVD. He watched it and was very excited that there was actually an organization out there trying to inform people of what he was trying to say since that fateful day. “AE911Truth is the most focused and organized group there is today in the 9/11 truth movement.  There is no speculation," he said. "Blueprint for Truth is factual and impressive information based on science and physics, and was clear and concise." When asked if he agreed with the evidence the DVD brings forth, Sullivan responded, "It contains extremely compelling evidence."

The final question we asked in this interview was, "How many architects and engineers does it take speaking in unison until people hear that there is a problem?" His response, "As the number grows it will be harder and harder to deny them -- but deny them they will."

Note: 1) Sullivan came out from the East Coast to deliver a short but electrifying presentation on Friday and Saturday night, May 7th & 8th at the joint presentation of Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth and Firefighters for 9/11 Truth.  He joined Richard Gage, AIA, and Erik Lawyer on stage for 10 minutes and answered some key questions about the demolition industry, the CDI family of Loizeauxs, and the way the 3 WTC skyscrapers were destroyed.  Prior to these milestone events he appeared with Gage and Lawyer on KPFA radio Berkeley on the program “Guns & Butter” with host Bonnie Faulkner who had a number of great questions for him.

2) "DO NOT COPY" watermarks on images were added by Tom Sullivan. These images may not be copied other than in the context of this article, or with his specific approval.


Download High-Quality Video Clips

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WTC Building #7, a 47-story high-rise not hit by an airplane, exhibited all the characteristics of classic controlled demolition with explosives:

1.   Rapid onset of "collapse"

2.   Sounds of explosions at ground floor - a second before the building's destruction

3.   Symmetrical "structural failure" -- through the path of greatest resistance -- at free-fall acceleration

4.   Imploded, collapsing completely, and landed in its own footprint

5.   Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic dust clouds

6.   Expert corroboration from the top European Controlled Demolition professional

7.   Fore-knowledge of "collapse" by media, NYPD, FDNY

The in the aftermath of WTC7's destruction, strong evidence of demolition using incendary devices was discovered:

8. FEMA finds rapid oxidation and intergranu lar melting on structural steel samples

9. Several tons of molten metal reported by numerous highly-qualified witnesses

10. Chemical signature of thermite (high tech incendiary) found in solidified molten metal, and dust samples

WTC7 exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire, i.e.

1.   Slow onset with large visible deformations

2.   Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, to the side most damaged by the fires)

3.   Evidence of fire temperatures capable of softening steel

4.   High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer lasting fires have never "collapsed".

As seen in this revealing photo, the Twin Towers' destruction exhibited all of the characteristics of destruction by explosives:

  1. Destruction proceeds through the path of greatest resistance at nearly free-fall acceleration
  2. Improbable symmetry of debris distribution
  3. Extremely rapid onset of destruction
  4. Over 100 first responders reported explosions and flashes
  5. Multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally
  6. Mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete & metal decking
  7. Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic-like clouds
  8. 1200-foot-dia. debris field: no "pancaked" floors found
  9. Isolated explosive ejections 20 – 40 stories below demolition front
  10. Total building destruction: dismemberment of steel frame
  11. Several tons of molten metal found under all 3 high-rises
  12. Evidence of thermite incendiaries found by FEMA in steel samples
  13. Evidence of explosives found in dust samples
  14. No precedent for steel-framed high-rise collapse due to fire

And exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire, i.e.

  1. Slow onset with large visible deformations
  2. Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, intact, from the point of plane impact, to the side most damaged by the fires)
  3. Evidence of fire temperatures capable of softening steel
  4. High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer lasting fires have never “collapsed”



"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:01:28 ET  (10 images) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#951. To: AGAviator (#944)

Fuck you, Half Truther.

You are pwned!!!!

No FUCK YOU Full Liar, YOU are "pwned".


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:02:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#952. To: FormerLurker, Agaviator, ALL (#949)

Willful Deception

Did you notice the author has links to Hanjour's official FAA pilot certification background?

Even before your silly article I posted the same.... you are a laff a minute and behind the eightball like your pal Stutts.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:02:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#953. To: buckeroo (#952)

The documented evidence completely destroys your illusion and tap dance that Hanjour was a "skilled pilot". Even his instructors questioned the validity of his "license" and reported him to the FAA.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:03:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#954. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#942) (Edited)

And BTW, a demoltions expert from CDI DOES say the WTC towers were probably taken out with controlled demolitions.

After 8 years, the best you Half Truther k00ks can come up with is "probably?"

911 Truth ***Clarifiction** [i.e. half assed retraction]

We incorrectly identified the thermite device illustrated in this article as a "cutter charge.” But, the device as described in the patent is only an igniter heat source only used to ignite larger charges. It does not in and of itself have the capability of cutting structural steel.

We would like to also note that neither the authors nor the interviewee, Tom Sullivan, intended to imply that this particular device was used in the WTC destruction. We don’t know exactly what was used. That is why we need a thorough investigation. Our intention was to note that the technology for self consuming consolidated thermite cases existed as far back as 1984. In our DVD 9/11: Blueprint for Truth, we do show the 1999 patent for a thermite-based cutter charge which is designed to eject molten copper or iron through the orifice in “hundreds of milliseconds,” and is capable cutting through thicker structural steel more efficiently. This thermite-based cutter charge has distinct advantages over more traditional high explosive cutter charges. From the patent description:

“A primary disadvantage of explosive shaped charges is that they generate excessive noise and debris upon detonation. This noise and debris can pose potentially serious health and safety hazards to someone using a cutting device which employs conventional shaped charge explosives.

Thermite-based cutting devices which employ a cutting flame produce virtually no extended shock wave and generate relatively little over pressure. Thermite- based cutting devices do not present the same health and safety hazards which are attendant upon explosive shape charge cutting devices.

So, this may provide explanation as to why the perpetrators used such devices – if in fact they were used - in these deceptive controlled demolitions. (We do not have much evidence to conclude that they were used in the Twin Towers – whose debris pile was fairly extensively photographed).

However, in the case of WTC 7, from which we have not been provided close-up photos during the clean-up process, we do have very interesting documentation from FEMA BPAT Report in Appendix C, along with photos and witnesses of pools of molten metal, which may provide such evidence. The authors describe severe high temperature corrosion, intergranular melting, rapid oxidation, and evaporation of the ends of steel structural members. Remember, WTC 7 was not the extreme explosive event that the Twin Towers were. It was an implosion, during which there are far fewer witnesses describing hearing and feeling the explosions. So it may be more likely a traditional demolition but using thermite incendiary cutter charges, where as the Twin Towers may have been destroyed with more explosive materials like C4 and the nano-thermitic composite explosives (which have been documented in other articles).

Also, it is quite conceivable, given the 16 year span of time between 1984 and 2001, that these two technologies could have been combined to produce a thermite based cutter charge whose casing is also made of consolidated thermite. This must still be researched.

Posted Clarification:

We used the Hi Ex system as an example in the article of a wireless detonation system that existed long before 9/11/01 and that was capable of stand–off distances of 5 kilometers – eliminating the requirement for “miles of detonation cord” from the actuating device. We had no intention of implying that this was the actual system used by the perpetrators at the WTC high-rises. A real investigation might reveal such secrets.

Posted Editorial Comment:

Next to the discovery of Nano-thermite in the WTC dust, the question of whether such thermite-based devices were used is a side issue -- merely one possible technology that could account for the dozens of observations of molten iron or steel in the debris pile.

In the debate about what brought down the World Trade Center, providing the grand "problem-reaction" for which the War on Terror is the alleged "solution," our position is solid on every important point. This is underscored by our critics' noisy attention to small errors such as this. The promoters of, and believers in, the official government conspiracy have always ignored or misrepresented the gross features of the three WTC towers' destruction. Those features -- the speed, symmetry, thoroughness, completeness -- have always pointed unequivocally to surreptitious demolition with explosives as the cause of that destruction. The details of how the demolitions were accomplished are largely irrelevant at this point in time, except that al Qaeda clearly lacked the access to accomplish any variant of them.

We call, once again, on everyone of conscience to evaluate impartially the evidence on both sides, as best we know it today, and join our 10,000 petition signers in the call for a new, open, subpoena-powered professional investigation, free of conflicts of interest, that will follow the scientific method and the evidence wherever it leads and let the chips fall where they may.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   20:09:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#955. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, ALL (#953)

The documented evidence completely destroys your illusion and tap dance that Hanjour was a "skilled pilot".

No one, that is to say, AG or myself have made that claim.... only you and your circle-jerk colleagues. I have maintained Hanjour was scared shitless actually attempting to pilot the craft.... research my references... you know how to use the edit function of your browser, don't you?

Even his instructors questioned the validity of his "license" and reported him to the FAA.

So what? He passed his exams and received certification which BLOWS your idea out the tube, pal.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:09:22 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#956. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, All (#954)

After 8 years, the best you [FormerLurker] Half Truther k00ks can come up with is "probably?"

I find that same "quote" so funny, I am linking it to another discussion group... with luck, we might get some new members on 4um.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:12:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#957. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#951)

Fuck you, Half Truther. You are pwned!!!!

No FUCK YOU Full Liar, YOU are "pwned".

Show me Hanjour's signed and dated pilot license, Two00fer.

MUAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   20:21:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#958. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, turtle (#957)

Show me Hanjour's signed and dated pilot license, Two00fer.

Doesn't matter, he STILL could barely do anything other than fly straight once up in the air, according to his instructors.

His instructors ALSO reported him to the FAA since they didn't feel his license was valid, since he was so inept as a "pilot" and lacked the most basic skills in order to fly an airplane.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:26:26 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#959. To: buckeroo (#955) (Edited)

No one, that is to say, AG or myself have made that claim.... only you and your circle-jerk colleagues. I have maintained Hanjour was scared shitless actually attempting to pilot the craft.... research my references... you know how to use the edit function of your browser, don't you?

This hack is getting desperate and brain damaged from absorbing so many direct hits to his paper thin skull membrane especially on this thread.

I've always maintained that Hanjour was a marginal pilot whose aircraft got away from him as he hit a recently reinforced mostly vacant and militarily useless value parking lot overlooking section.

Far from being a "precision maneuver" it was a wobbling and off-angle clipping of a wall instead of a full on 90 degree direct impact.

Which section was not even fully staffed due to construction work still wrapping up. Instead of hitting north side of the Pentagon which is where the targets, offices of value,and important staff were.

The only hits of any value to al Qaeda were the NYC ones. Those actually did some substantial damage and actually exceeded bin Laden's expectations.

The other 2 hijackings were tactical failures and only served to get America more pissed off, although that did ultimately play into AQ's hands by instigating a massive revenge which has resulted in enormous killing of innocents, enormous military spending, and an ongoing threat of economic bankruptcy promised by OBL in his 2004 video.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   20:29:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#960. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, All (#957)

Show me Hanjour's signed and dated pilot license, Two00fer.

Did you notice that footnote 35 of FormerLurker's own post @post#949 contains the FAA certifications of and about Hanjour?

Thank you FL! You are a human dyn-o-mo ... just a day late and a dollar short from original posting material by AG (whom has maintained all along that Hanjour was a pilot) ....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:29:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#961. To: buckeroo (#955)

So what? He passed his exams and received certification

Which according to his instructors, he should not have had. How could he pass the written exam when he didn't know enough English to take to have a chance of progressing through the various schools, and didn't have even the most basic flight skills in order to properly fly a single engine airplane?

Did you even read the extremely well-researched article which went into extensive detail?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:30:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#962. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#958) (Edited)

So what

Doesn't matter,

You've already demonstrated that nothing matters to a k00kswiller except stale already debunked detritus that nobody outside of a Six Percenter minority will get anywhere near to.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   20:32:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#963. To: buckeroo, AGaviator, ALL (#960)

Thank you FL! You are a human dyn-o-mo ... just a day late and a dollar short from original posting material by AG (whom has maintained all along that Hanjour was a pilot) ....

From the article...


Contrary to the Washington Post’s assertion that this certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets", in fact it only allowed him to begin passenger jet training. Hanjour did so, only to fail the class.36 As the Associated Press reported, the "certification allowed him to begin passenger jet training at an Arizona flight school despite having what instructors later described as limited flying skills and an even more limited command of English."37

Furthermore, there remains an open question about whether Hanjour was actually qualified to receive that certificate in the first place. According to Heather Awsumb, a spokeswoman for Professional Airways Systems Specialists (PASS), a union that represents FAA employees, "The real problem is that regular oversight is handed over to private industry", since private contractors "receive between $200 and $300 for each check flight. If they get a reputation for being tough, they won’t get any business."38

To obtain a commercial pilot license, the applicant must "Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language." It seems highly dubious that Hanjour met that qualification, as the 9/11 Commission itself acknowledges that his English skills were inadequate. The certificate does not allow its holder to fly any commercial aircraft, but is issued for "the aircraft category and class rating sought". Hanjour only trained in light propeller planes like the single-engine Cessna and twin-engine Piper, and had never flown a jet aircraft.39


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:34:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#964. To: AGAviator (#962) (Edited)

More than 6% think WTC 7 was a controlled demolition. Matter of fact, I think you are in the minority here, retards still are last time I checked.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   20:35:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#965. To: AGAviator (#959)

The other 2 hijackings were tactical failures and only served to get America more pissed off

Good post, AG... it is fantastick to see FACTUAL data supported on this website.

Not many talk about FLT93 ... so far. That insidious, diabolical hijacker bastard was a flt training instructor whom nose dived ... why? Because the fucker was beaten to death death by some of the most valiant people on the planet.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:35:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#966. To: AGAviator, buckeroo (#962)

You've already demonstrated that nothing matters to a k00kswiller except stale already debunked detritus that nobody outside of a Six Percenter minority will get anywhere near to.

From the WTC demolition article;


And as Sullivan watched the towers collapse that day, like so many did, he pondered at how fast it all took place, and how suddenly and symmetrically they were brought down. "I knew it was an explosive event as soon as I saw it, there was no question in my mind," said Sullivan. Most of us agree -- it's not by chance that the first tower just happened to collapse -- then the second in the same manner. What convinced him completely is when he watched Tower 7 fall that day, "I mean, come on, it was complete destruction. I've seen buildings fall like that for years -- that was the end game for me." Keep in mind that Sullivan did this for a living for several years -- it is like second nature for him to see this type of demolition. If anybody would know, it should be him. But we went ahead and asked him, “Is there any chance that normal office fires (the official cause of the ’collapse’) could have been responsible for the smooth, symmetrical, free-fall acceleration of building 7? “Not a chance,” he retorted. We just wanted to be sure.

When we asked him if he followed any of the 9/11 Commission hearings or that of the NIST reporting, he had the same answer for both "I have no tolerance for people who lie to me about what I know to be true. I threw my hands up in disgust and never watched another hearing after the first. As for NIST, I didn't even watch because I knew what to expect." He did however follow the final report on the collapse of Tower 7 and said it angered him that they could actually convince so many of their fraudulent claims.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:36:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#967. To: FormerLurker (#963)

From the article...

Your overall article comment is hacked, patch work quilt of pure, unadulterated BS. You even know it... the conclusions (without mathematics or physics) are unsupported allegations.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:37:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#968. To: AGAviator (#959) (Edited)

Far from being a "precision maneuver" it was a wobbling and off- angle clipping of a wall instead of a full on 90 degree direct impact.

Liar. And you ARE a liar extraordinaire.

From the Hanjour article;


John Ashcroft told reporters early in the investigation, "It is our belief and the evidence indicates that flight training was received in the United States and that their capacity to operate the aircraft was substantial. It’s very clear that these orchestrated coordinated assaults on our country were well- conducted and conducted in a technically proficient way. It is not that easy to land these kinds of aircraft at very specific locations with accuracy or to direct them with the kind of accuracy, which was deadly in this case."7

A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8 An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9

CBS News suggested that according to its sources, Flight 77, "flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn. Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a-half minutes. The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it’s clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10

The Washington Post similarly noted that the plane "was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm." Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11 The Post reported in another article that "After the attacks ... aviation experts concluded that the final maneuvers of American Airlines Flight 77 – a tight turn followed by a steep, accurate descent into the Pentagon – was the work of ‘a great talent ... virtually a textbook turn and landing.’"12

According to the report of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) cited by the 9/11 Commission, information from the flight data recorder recovered from the Pentagon crash site and radar data from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) show that the autopilot was disengaged "as the aircraft leveled near 7000 feet. Slight course changes were initiated, during which variations in altitude between 6800 and 8000 feet were noted. At 9:34 AM, the aircraft was positioned about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon, and started a right 330-degree descending turn to the right. At the end of the turn, the aircraft was at about 2000 feet altitude and 4 miles southwest of the Pentagon. Over the next 30 seconds, power was increased to near maximum and the nose was pitched down in response to control column movements. The airplane accelerated to approximately 460 knots (530 miles per hour) at impact with the Pentagon. The time of impact was 9:37:45 AM."13

The NTSB created a computer simulation of the flight from the flight data recorder information showing that the plane was actually at more than 8,100 feet and doing about 330 mph when it began its banking turn at 9:34 am. 14 At that point, the alleged pilot Hanjour could have simply decreased thrust, nosed down, and guided the plane into what would have been 29 acres, or 1,263,240 square feet of target area – the equivalent of about 22 football fields.15 From this angle, proverbially speaking, it would have been like trying to hit the side of a barn. Hanjour could have guided the plane into the enormous roof of the building, including the side of the building where the office of the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, was located, and where he happened to be that morning.16

Instead, the plane began a steep banking descent, circling downward in a 330- degree turn while dropping more than 5,600 feet in three minutes before re- aligning with the Pentagon and increasing to maximum thrust towards the building. The nose was kept down despite the increased lift from the acceleration, while flying so close to the ground that it clipped lamp posts along the interstate highway before plowing into the building at more than 530 mph, precisely hitting a target only 71 feet high, or just 26.5 feet taller than the Boeing 757 itself.17

In other words, by performing this maneuver, Hanjour reduced his vertical target area from a size comparable to the height of the Empire State Building to an area just 5 stories high. Instead of descending at an angle and plowing through the roof and floors of the building to cause the greatest possible number of casualties, including possibly taking out the Secretary of Defense, Hanjour hit wedge 1 of the Pentagon, opposite to Rumsfeld’s office, which happened to be under construction, and where the plane, travelling horizontally, had to penetrate through the steel- and kevlar-reinforced outer wall of the building’s southwest E-ring in addition to the numerous additional walls of the inner rings of the building.18

But even more problematic than the question of why Hanjour would perform this maneuver is the question of how he performed it. Perhaps the most incredible thing about this, the official account of what happened to Flight 77, is that Hani Hanjour was in reality such a horrible pilot that he had trouble handling a light single-engine aircraft and even just one month before the attacks was rejected at two different schools because he was judged too incompetent to rent a plane and fly solo.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:38:53 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#969. To: RickyJ, buckeroo, turtle (#964) (Edited)

More than 6% think WTC 7 was a controlled demolition

A 2006 Zogby poll actually put the number who believe "The USG did it" at 4.2%.

I am being generous when I call you Six Percenters.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   20:41:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#970. To: FormerLurker (#966)

And as Sullivan watched the towers collapse that day, like so many did, he pondered at how fast it all took place, and how suddenly and symmetrically they were brought down.

Sullivan pondered? Isn't that a quaint idea. What is Sullivan's background? Other than working as a laborer at some company?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:43:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#971. To: buckeroo (#967)

Your overall article comment is hacked, patch work quilt of pure, unadulterated BS. You even know it... the conclusions (without mathematics or physics) are unsupported allegations.

Sure it is buckie, sure it is...


  1. Statement for the Record FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III Joint Intelligence Committee Inquiry, September 26, 2002. [<-]
  2. Jim Yardley and Jo Thomas, “For Agent in Phoenix, the Cause of Many Frustrations Extended to His Own Office," New York Times, June 19, 2002. [<-]
  3. FBI Names 19 Men as Hijackers,” Washington Post, September 15, 2001; Page A01. [<-]
  4. Working Draft Chronology of Events for Hijackers and Associates,” FBI, November 14, 2003 (hereafter “FBI Hijackers Timeline”), p. 41. The complete FBI timeline is available for download online. See: “Newly Released FBI Timeline Reveals New Information about 9/11 Hijackers that Was Ignored by 9/11 Commission”, HistoryCommons.org, February 14, 2008. The timeline reads: “FAA issued Commercial Pilot certificate #2576802 to [redacted] [sic].” The “[sic]” is in the original. Why the name “Hani Saleh Hanjoor” is redacted is unclear. [<-]
  5. The Final Report of the National commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, p. 225-227 (hereafter “9/11 Commission Report”). [<-]
  6. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 530. [<-]
  7. Global Security, September 14, 2001. [<-]
  8. Hijackers ‘knew what they were doing,’” CNN, September 12, 2001. The quote is CNN’s paraphrase of what the flight expert told them. [<-]
  9. ‘Get These Planes on the Ground’: Air Traffic Controllers Recall Sept. 11,83; ABC News, October 24, 2001. [<-]
  10. Prima ry Target: 189 Dead Or Missing From Pentagon Attack”, CBS News, September 21, 2001. [<-]
  11. Marc Fisher and Don Phillips, “On Flight 77: ‘Our Plane is Being Hijacked,’” Washington Post, September 12, 2001; Page A01 [<-]
  12. Steve Fainaru and Alia Ibrahim, “Mysterious Trip to Flight 77 Cockpit,” Washington Post, September 10, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  13. Flight Path Study – American Airlines Flight 77,” NTSB, February 19, 2002. [<-]
  14. A copy of the NTSB video was obtained by the group Pilots for 9/11 Truth. It is available for viewing on YouTube (accessed April 8, 2010). [<-]
  15. The Pentagon,” GlobalSecurity.org. [<-]
  16. Don Van Natta and Lizette Alvarez, “A Hijacked Boeing 757 Slams Into the Pentagon, Halting the Government,” New York Times, September 12, 2001. [<-]
  17. The Pentagon,” Great Buildings Online (accessed March 27, 2010). Boeing 757 Technical Specifications from Boeing.com (accessed Marcy 27, 2010). [<-]
  18. DoD News Briefing on Pentagon Renovation,” Department of Defense, September 15, 2001. [<-]
  19. Los Angeles Times, September 27, 2001. [<- ] [<-]
  20. FBI Summary about Alleged Flight 77 Hijacker Hani Hanjour”, Scribd.com (accessed April 6, 2010; herafter “FBI Timeline for Hani Hanjour”). This document was cited by the 9/11 Commission. The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) possesses the Commission’s records and has released many documents to the public. See: “9/11 Commission Records,” NARA (accessed March 28, 2010). Many of the released records are available online at Scribd.com. See: “9/11 Document Archive,” Scribd.com (accessed March 28, 2010). [<-]
  21. Washington Post, September 10, 2002. [<- ]
  22. Charles M. Sennott, “Why bin Laden plot relied on Saudi hijackers,” Boston Globe, March 3, 2002. [<-]
  23. Joel Mowbray, “Visas that Should Have Been Denied,” National Review Online, October 9, 2002. [<-] [<-] [<-]
  24. FBI Timeline for Hani Hanjour. [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-]
  25. Thomas Frank, “Tracing Trail of Hijackers,” Newsday, September 23, 2001. [<-]
  26. David W. Chen, “Man Traveled Across U.S. In His Quest to Be a Pilot,” New York Times, September 18, 2001. [<-] [<-]
  27. Who Did It? FBI Links Names to Terror Attacks,” ABC News, October 4, 2001. [<-]
  28. Newsday, September 23, 2001. [<-]
  29. “Hanjour an unlikely terrorist,” Cape Cod Times, October 21, 2001. [<-]
  30. Carol J. Williams, John-Thor Dahlburg, and H.G. Reza, “Mainly, They Just Waited,” Los Angeles Times, September 27, 2001. [<-]
  31. V. Dion Haynes, “Algerian man didn’t try to hide, neighbors say,” Chicago Tribune, October 2, 2001. [<-]
  32. FBI Summary of Information, Lofti Raissi”, January 4, 2004. [<-] [<-]
  33. 9/11 Commission Report p. 520. [<-]
  34. Hanjour’s FAA airman documentation from the 9/11 Commission records released by NARA are available online at Scribd. [<-]
  35. Hanjour’s FAA airman records are available online at Scribd. [<-]
  36. Kellie Lunney, “FAA contractors approved flight licenses for Sept. 11 suspect,” Government Executive, June 13, 2002. [<-]
  37. Report: 9/11 Hijacker Bypassed FAA,” Associated Press, September 30, 2004 [<-] [<-]
  38. Government Executive, June 13, 2002. [<-]
  39. The 9/11 Commission Report, p. 12. The report notes that “To our knowledge none of them [the hijackers] had ever flown an actual airliner before.” [<-]
  40. Code of Federal Regulations, Title 14, Sections 61.123, 61.129. Present requirements in these regards are the same as they were when Hanjour obtained his certificate. See the version revised as of January 1, 1999. [<-]
  41. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 521- 522. [<-]
  42. FBI FD-302, James Charles McRae,” April 10, 2001. [<-]
  43. Jim Yardley, “A Trainee Noted for Incompetence,” New York Times, May 4, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  44. FAA Probed, Cleared Sept. 11 Hijacker in Early 2001,” Associated Press, May 10, 2002. [<-]
  45. David Hancock, “FAA Was Alerted to Sept. 11 Hijacker,” CBS News, May 10, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  46. Jim Yardley and Jo Thomas, “For Agent in Phoenix, the Cause of Many Frustrations Extended to His Own Office,” New York Times, June 19, 2001 [<-]
  47. FBI Hijacker’s Timeline, p.123. [<-]
  48. Associated Press, May 10, 2002. [<-]
  49. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 242. [<-]
  50. Brooke A. Masters, Leef Smith, and Michael D. Shear, “Dulles Hijackers Made Maryland Their Base,” Washington Post, September 19, 2001; Page A01. [<-]
  51. Piecing together the shadowy lives of the hijackers,” Telegraph, September 20, 2001. [<-]
  52. Thomas Frank, “Tracing Trail of Hijackers,” Newsday, November 24, 2004. [<-]
  53. FBI Hijackers Timeline, p. 150, 154, 156-157, 161-162, 166-167. [<-]
  54. Jacques Billeaud, “More Arizona ties to terror suspect,” Associated Press, September 20, 2001. [<-]
  55. "9/11 Commission Report," p. 529. The document cited by the 9/11 Commission was obtained by Intelwire.com. “FBI Memorandum, Sawyer Aviation records”, October 12, 2001. [<-]
  56. FBI FD-302, Interrogation of Tina Beth Arnold (Sawyer Aviation) ,” FBI, October 17, 2001. [<-]
  57. FBI Summary of Information, Lotfi Raissi,” FBI, January 4, 2004 [<-] [<-] [<-]
  58. William F. Jasper, “9-11 Conspiracy Fact & Fiction," The New American, May 2, 2005. [<-]
  59. Airplane Flight: How High? How Fast? ” NASA (accessed April 17, 2010). Relative airspeed is calculated by the equation B d v2 = W, where factor B depends on the profile of a given set of wings (larger wings produce more lift), d is air density, v is velocity, and W is the airplane’s weight. At 30,000 feet, air density is about ¼ that at sea level, allowing an airliner to double its speed to produce the same amount of lift. [<-]
  60. Patrick Smith, “A sk the pilot,” Salon, May 19, 2006. [<-]
  61. What Really Happened: The 9/11 Fact File,” Der Spiegel, December 20, 2006. [<-]


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:46:49 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#972. To: buckeroo (#970)

What is Sullivan's background?

He demolished buildings using explosives, and worked for Controlled Demolition Inc.

You know, the same company your boyfriend likes to bring up as a source.

Did you even read the article?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:48:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#973. To: buckeroo, AGaviator, ALL (#967)

Oh and BTW, World Trade Center Building 7 DID collapse at free fall speed.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:51:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#974. To: FormerLurker (#971)

BFD... your article uses a few footnotes/references that are factual but don't lead to conclusions supporting the thesis.

Hanjour was a licensed pilot! You lose, pal... your own quotes from [35]....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:52:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#975. To: FormerLurker, blockqutoe (#968)

At that point, the alleged pilot Hanjour could have simply decreased thrust, nosed down, and guided the plane into what would have been 29 acres, or 1,263,240 square feet of target area – the equivalent of about 22 football fields.15 From this angle, proverbially speaking, it would have been like trying to hit the side of a barn. Hanjour could have guided the plane into the enormous roof of the building, including the side of the building where the office of the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, was located, and where he happened to be that morning.

Instead, the plane began a steep banking descent, circling downward in a 330- degree turn while dropping more than 5,600 feet in three minutes before re- aligning with the Pentagon and increasing to maximum thrust towards the building. The nose was kept down despite the increased lift from the acceleration, while flying so close to the ground that it clipped lamp posts along the interstate highway before plowing into the building at

...

Instead of descending at an angle and plowing through the roof and floors of the building to cause the greatest possible number of casualties, including possibly taking out the Secretary of Defense, Hanjour hit wedge 1 of the Pentagon, opposite to Rumsfeld’s office, which happened to be under construction, and where the plane, travelling horizontally, had to penetrate through the steel- and kevlar-reinforced outer wall of the building’s southwest E-ring in addition to the numerous additional walls of the inner rings of the building.

What a fucking whack

You want to allege that any attacker deliberately ignored a high value north side target, to put the plane into a turn where he clipped lamp standards and instead hit a mostly empty, mostly vacant, recently reinforced office backwater.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   20:53:23 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#976. To: AGAviator (#954)

The details of how the demolitions were accomplished are largely irrelevant at this point in time, except that al Qaeda clearly lacked the access to accomplish any variant of them.

Yep.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:54:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#977. To: FormerLurker (#973)

Oh and BTW, World Trade Center Building 7 DID collapse at free fall speed.

Where are the credentials of the folks that made that YouTube uplink? As far as I am concerned it is worthless data.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:55:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#978. To: FormerLurker (#973)

World Trade Center Building 7 DID collapse at free fall speed.

Like that should be a surprise.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-22   20:56:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#979. To: AGAviator (#975)

What a fucking whack

Ah, when totally proven wrong, resort to calling me a "fucking whack", how brilliant.

You want to allege that any attacker deliberately ignored a high value north side target, to put the plane into a turn where he clipped lamp standards and instead hit a mostly empty, mostly vacant, recently reinforced office backwater.

Well OF COURSE that is what would happen if the ATTACKER was NOT a "crazed raghead" who "hated us for our freedom", but rather some covert remote operator utilizing computer assisted flight control to take out an area that would do the LEAST damage.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:57:13 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#980. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, All (#975)

proverbially speaking

Aren't those cool, neat facts from FL's own resource? WOW... "proverbial" has really swayed my thinking now.

ROTFL

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:57:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#981. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker (#980)

proverbially speaking

Aren't those cool, neat facts from FL's own resource? WOW... "proverbial" has really swayed my thinking now.

ROTFL

They're not facts. It's an analogy.

"Like hitting the side of a barn."

Which it was.

Fuck you're stupid.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-22   21:01:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#982. To: All (#941)

Me: I don't have time right now to locate my post on the ZioNIST report that clearly shows on its own pages (173-174, I think it is) how demolitions could easily have been planted at intervals and in several different ways during what might have appeared to be only routine building inspections. That's in addition to the Powerdown period and in addition to the many months of such access with Maintenance passes that the WTC Art Students-in-Residence had available to them to stage-prop and plant explosives in the buildings, so the arguments that it couldn't have been done covertly are baseless nonsense. Will try to find it and link it here as a reference as soon as I can get around to it.

There are two and here they are @:

Everyone who believes that those who trust the government and believe it's wacky conspiracy theories are the biggest KOOKS of all, here's your thread
http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi? ArtNum=120440&Disp=0#C0

Post #49
http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi? ArtNum=120440&Disp=49#C49

Post #50
http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi? ArtNum=120440&Disp=50#C50

So don't try to make that baseless nonsense claim again, Non-Truthers, or be exposed and PWND as Willful Liars.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-22   21:02:30 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#983. To: buckeroo (#977)

Where are the credentials of the folks that made that YouTube uplink?

Watch the videos and find out...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:03:04 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#984. To: wudidiz (#981)

They're not facts. It's an analogy.

Oh this is RICH! .. no facts just silly BS. Thanks for making my point, pal.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   21:03:06 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#985. To: FormerLurker (#973)

E pur si muove! (& the truth will out.)

There is no long form.

randge  posted on  2010-07-22   21:03:53 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#986. To: AGAviator (#969) (Edited)

Retard, everyone that sees WTC come down knows it was a controlled demolition if they have even a average IQ. You obviously don't, but it is nice that they let you play at the computer at your retard institution.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   21:06:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#987. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#979)

but rather some covert remote operator utilizing computer assisted

So why didn't your ***covert remote operator*** use the same tactic of hitting the "least damageable location" of NYC buildings, whackjob?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   21:06:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#988. To: buckeroo (#974)

BFD... your article uses a few footnotes/references that are factual but don't lead to conclusions supporting the thesis.

Oh sure, ALL the witnesses and people involved don't know as much as you bucko.

The air traffic controllers at Dulles International Airport are no match for your expertise, and the various airline pilots stating the pilot who flew the plane into the Pentagon had to have been highly skilled are no match for your vast experience flying airliners, and the flight instructors who actually delt with him and who judged him to be totally incompentent just didn't know what they were talking about I guess.

In fact, even the 9/11 Commissioners who determined his English skills to be inadequate were just being racists and picking on the poor guy, since his English skills MUST have been pretty good for him to get that license, right bucko?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:09:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#989. To: AGAviator (#987)

So why didn't your ***covert remote operator*** use the same tactic of hitting the "least damageable location" of NYC buildings, whackjob?

It wasn't the Pentagon, Rumsfeld wasn't there, and they WANTED to bring those towers down.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:10:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#990. To: RickyJ (#986)

Retard, everyone that sees WTC come down knows it was a controlled demolition if they have even a average IQ.

Any FACTS called mathematics and physics or mechanical stress analysis? You should be ashamed of your own posts.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   21:11:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#991. To: RickyJ, buckeroo, turtle (#986) (Edited)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   21:12:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#992. To: AGAviator (#987)

So why didn't your ***covert remote operator*** use the same tactic of hitting the "least damageable location" of NYC buildings

Oh and there WAS a ***covert remote operator*** or two involved, at least in terms of setting off the remote triggered demolitions.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:12:24 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#993. To: FormerLurker (#989)

It wasn't the Pentagon, Rumsfeld wasn't there

Rumsfeld wasn't in the Pentagon on September 11, 2001 in the early morning hours briefing with Wolfowitz? Link, please?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   21:12:46 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#994. To: buckeroo (#984)

Oh this is RICH! .. no facts just silly BS. Thanks for making my point, pal.

You argue like a girl.

A dumb girl.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-22   21:13:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#995. To: FormerLurker (#992)

Oh and there WAS a ***covert remote operator*** or two involved, at least in terms of setting off the remote triggered demolitions.

PROOF, please.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   21:13:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#996. To: wudidiz (#994)

Actually, you had your panties pulled down agreeing with me, wud.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   21:14:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#997. To: buckeroo (#990) (Edited)

"TCP/IP crap for public networks"

You have no shame, because you have no idea how damn stupid you are.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   21:14:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#998. To: buckeroo (#990)

Any FACTS called mathematics and physics or mechanical stress analysis?

You ignore any facts and evidence presented, whether it utilizes physics and math, or whether it's testimony from actual experts and witnesses.

You cling to your religious belief that 19 "angry ragheads did 911", no matter HOW much proof and evidence there is which conflicts with that faith based belief.

In fact, 7 or more of them are still alive, so guess what, it wasn't THOSE 7 or so that "did it".


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:15:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#999. To: FormerLurker (#998)

9/11 Was An Inside Job.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-22   21:15:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1000. To: wudidiz (#994) (Edited)

Stop insulting the girls.....even the dumb gilrs!!

Respect my authority!!! : )

Yippie.......Ab slips in for 1000!!!

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-22   21:16:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1001. To: All, *9-11* (#999) (Edited)

1 Thousand.

Edit: 1 Thousand and one.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-22   21:16:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1002. To: buckeroo (#995)

PROOF, please.

Since building 7 could NOT have collapsed any other way than by controlled demolition, do you think some guy stood there with a Bic lighter inside the building and lit a fuse?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:16:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1003. To: abraxas (#1000)

You wrecked my thousand.

Dumb girl.

:-)


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-22   21:17:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1004. To: wudidiz (#1001)

Nope.......Ab snuck in for 1000.

You'll have to settle for 1001. : P

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-22   21:17:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1005. To: wudidiz, abraxas (#1001)

1 Thousand.

abraxas beat you to it by one...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:17:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1006. To: FormerLurker (#988)

In fact, even the 9/11 Commissioners who determined his English skills to be inadequate were just being racists and picking on the poor guy, since his English skills MUST have been pretty good for him to get that license, right bucko?

The 9/11 Commission received authoritative reports about Hanjour from the FBI throught "Summary of PENTTBOM Investigations." They made no determination as to Hanjour's characteristics to pass or fail.... but you know this.

Why are you distorting the facts?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   21:18:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1007. To: abraxas (#1000)

Yippie.......Ab slips in for 1000!!!

Wow, that doesn't happen too often around here, congratulations are in order.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:18:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1008. To: wudidiz (#1003)

I'm a wrecker and roller.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-22   21:19:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1009. To: abraxas (#1008)

Excuse me while I go sulk...


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-22   21:19:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1010. To: FormerLurker, wudidiz (#1007)

Thanks FL.........I had to sneak in and garner the coveteted post from the grasp of wudidiz.

But Ididiz....lol

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-22   21:20:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1011. To: buckeroo (#1006)

The 9/11 Commission received authoritative reports about Hanjour from the FBI throught "Summary of PENTTBOM Investigations." They made no determination as to Hanjour's characteristics to pass or fail.... but you know this.

EVERYBODY said in one way or another that Hanjour's English was woefully inadequate, in fact, at one point a flight school suggested an interpretor, which is actually illegal since a pilot is REQUIRED by law to be able to read, write, speak, and understand English.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:20:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1012. To: buckeroo (#1006)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-22   21:21:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1013. To: FormerLurker (#998)

In fact, 7 or more of them are still alive, so guess what, it wasn't THOSE 7 or so that "did it".

Proof positive that you know and understand that the others died hijacking four passenger jet aircraft.

Again, thank you FL for demonstrating FACTS once in a while.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   21:22:13 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1014. To: wudidiz (#1009)

I snuck in earlier today for the triple 8 too....Neener, Neener, Neener.

Ididiz, wud..... : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-22   21:23:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1015. To: FormerLurker (#1011)

EVERYBODY said in one way or another that Hanjour's English was woefully inadequate, in fact, at one point a flight school suggested an interpretor, which is actually illegal since a pilot is REQUIRED by law to be able to read, write, speak, and understand English.

Well, my poor little loser... Hanjour received his certifications one way or another.... You lose.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   21:23:52 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1016. To: buckeroo (#1015) (Edited)

From the Hanjour article.

It was upon his return to Arizona Aviation in 2000 that the 9/11 Commission stated he wanted "refresher" training on multi-engine planes but was advised to discontinue "because his English was not good enough." The implications are that Hanjour was merely brushing up on skills he had already achieved through previous flight training, and that the only reason he was advised not to continue was because of his poor language skills. But turning to the report’s footnote, it reads: "For his desire to train on multi-engine planes, his language difficulties, the instructor’s advice, and his reaction, see FBI report of investigation, interview of Rodney McAlear, Apr. 10, 2002."41 That document reveals that McAlear worked not for Arizona Aviation, but rather "instructed Hani Hanjour in ground school flight training at Jet Tech in the early 2001."42 The 9/11 Commission, by misleadingly suggesting that this occurred at Arizona Aviation, apparently intended to bolster the claim that this was "refresher" training by making it sound as though this occurred at Hanjour’s old school, when the truth is that it occurred when he was at a different school he'd never been to before.

The 9/11 Commission was also deceiving the public suggesting that the sole reason Hanjour was not able to complete his training on multi-engine planes was because his English wasn’t good enough. As already noted, an instructor at Arizona Aviation thought his earlier failings there were due primarily to his poor flight skills, and not because of his language inadequacies. More importantly, again, this training actually occurred at Jet Tech. Turning to the documentary record, as article in the New York Times entitled "A Trainee Noted for Incompetence" noted, his instructors there "found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so inadequate that they questioned whether his pilot’s license was genuine". As a result, they actually reported him to the FAA and requested confirmation that his certificate was legitimate. The staff there "feared that his skills were so weak that he could pose a safety hazard if he flew a commercial airliner." Marilyn Ladner, a vice president at the academy, told the Times, "There was no suspicion as far as evildoing. It was more of a very typical instructional concern that ‘you really shouldn’t be in the air.’"43


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:24:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1017. To: RickyJ (#997)

"TCP/IP crap for public networks"

You have misquoted me at 990.... you don't even know how to post.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   21:26:13 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1018. To: buckeroo (#1015)

Well, my poor little loser... Hanjour received his certifications one way or another.... You lose.

Probably the same way he was able to get out of the country after the operation was pulled off, well, if they didn't liquidate him, but I doubt he would have performed as he did if he thought they'd put a bullet in his head and dump him at the bottom of a landfill or something once it was over.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:28:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1019. To: FormerLurker (#1016)

From the Hanjour article.

What article? No reference?

It was upon his return to Arizona Aviation in 2000 that the 9/11 Commission stated he wanted "refresher" training on multi-engine planes but was advised to discontinue "because his English was not good enough." The implications are that Hanjour was merely brushing up on skills he had already achieved through previous flight training, and that the only reason he was advised not to continue was because of his poor language skills. But turning to the report’s footnote, it reads: "For his desire to train on multi-engine planes, his language difficulties, the instructor’s advice, and his reaction, see FBI report of investigation, interview of Rodney McAlear, Apr. 10, 2002."41 That document reveals that McAlear worked not for Arizona Aviation, but rather "instructed Hani Hanjour in ground school flight training at Jet Tech in the early 2001."42 The 9/11 Commission, by misleadingly suggesting that this occurred at Arizona Aviation, apparently intended to bolster the claim that this was "refresher" training by making it sound as though this occurred at Hanjour’s old school, when the truth is that it occurred when he was at a different school he'd never been to before.

BFD... Hanjour hijacked the palne, flew it into the Pentagon... About two hundred people are dead.

The 9/11 Commission was also deceiving the public suggesting that the sole reason Hanjour was not able to complete his training on multi-engine planes was because his English wasn’t good enough. As already noted, an instructor at Arizona Aviation thought his earlier failings there were due primarily to his poor flight skills, and not because of his language inadequacies. More importantly, again, this training actually occurred at Jet Tech. Turning to the documentary record, as article in the New York Times entitled "A Trainee Noted for Incompetence" noted, his instructors there "found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so inadequate that they questioned whether his pilot’s license was genuine". As a result, they actually reported him to the FAA and requested confirmation that his certificate was legitimate. The staff there "feared that his skills were so weak that he could pose a safety hazard if he flew a commercial airliner." Marilyn Ladner, a vice president at the academy, told the Times, "There was no suspicion as far as evildoing. It was more of a very typical instructional concern that ‘you really shouldn’t be in the air.’"43

Who cares what the NYTimes says.

You have stretched Hanjour to the point that I am wondering if you are a total dick looking to suck his cock. You started out with credentials not being certified... now its his English skills.... Did you want to blow him too?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   21:31:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1020. To: buckeroo (#1013)

Proof positive that you know and understand that the others died hijacking four passenger jet aircraft.

Again, thank you FL for demonstrating FACTS once in a while.

If at least 7 are alive, that means those 7 didn't hijack any planes on Sept. 11, 2001, and crash them into buildings.

So then why are they still listed as the "official hijackers"? And if there are 7 that definitely are alive, there's a good chance that ALL of them are, although probably living under new identities and new appearances.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:31:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1021. To: buckeroo (#1019)

Did you want to blow him too?

Nope, that's more for you and your boyfriend AG to take up with each other.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:32:20 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1022. To: buckeroo (#1019)

You have stretched Hanjour to the point that I am wondering if you are a total dick looking to suck his cock.

You are getting a bit unhinged there buck. Are you hitting the bottle again, or is it Sterno this time?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:33:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1023. To: GreyLmist (#982)

So don't try to make that baseless nonsense claim again, Non-Truthers, or be exposed and PWND as Willful Liars.

They've probably lied so much so long about so many things that their consciences have been seared and they think nothing of it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-22   21:33:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1024. To: wudidiz (#999)

999 ain't bad......unless you turn it upside down. 8 P

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-22   21:35:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1025. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, ALL (#1018)

Probably the same way he was able to get out of the country after the operation was pulled off

Hanjour is alive like Elvis, Hitler and Michael Jackson? This is getting better and better.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   21:35:06 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1026. To: buckeroo (#1019)

What article? No reference?

My how you are getting forgetful buck, are you sober enough to continue?

Hanjour article

BFD... Hanjour hijacked the palne, flew it into the Pentagon... About two hundred people are dead.

It'd be close to impossible for Hanjour to have attacked the Pentagon with a Cessna, never mind a 757.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:37:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1027. To: FormerLurker (#988)

In fact, even the 9/11 Commissioners who determined his English skills to be inadequate were just being racists and picking on the poor guy, since his English skills MUST have been pretty good for him to get that license

They be racis' and shee-it!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-22   21:37:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1028. To: James Deffenbach (#1027)

Oh de humanity!!!!

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-22   21:37:50 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1029. To: abraxas (#1028)

Oh de humanity!!!!

Yeah. It's a sorry old world, ain't it?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-22   21:42:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1030. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, ALL (#1026)

It'd be close to impossible for Hanjour to have attacked the Pentagon with a Cessna, never mind a 757.

Oh... it's only "close" now... not impossible.... you are such a Bullshitter... you can't determine where your own two legs stand as you slip and slide all over the topic.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   21:42:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1031. To: buckeroo (#993)

Rumsfeld wasn't in the Pentagon on September 11, 2001

In response to a question from your pal, I said that the reasons they brought down the WTC yet were careful in how they hit the Pentagon, besides the fact they WANTED to bring down the WTC, is that Rumsfeld wasn't there (at the WTC), and that it wasn't the Pentagon, which they obviously DIDN'T want to damage too much.

Take the time to read and understand what is written, not what you think it says. I tried to make it clearer for you buck. Do you understand it now?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:43:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1032. To: buckeroo (#1030)

Oh... it's only "close" now... not impossible....

I said with a Cessna idiot, that isn't what he allegedly used now is it.

Is a 757 made by Cessna in your world?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:44:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1033. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, ALL (#1031)

I said that the reasons they brought down the WTC yet were careful in how they hit the Pentagon

Where is this inside knowledge, FL? You seem to KNOW all about the reasons.....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   21:47:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1034. To: James Deffenbach (#1023) (Edited)

They've probably lied so much so long about so many things that their consciences have been seared and they think nothing of it.

Most likely but still, they've been adequately warned now so it's their own fault if they get exposed and PWND as Willful Liars on that score. Amazing how they don't even seem to blink as they transform their guy who couldn't takeoff and land correctly but, evidently, was nevertheless improperly and illegaly certified into a stunt-pilot who somehow managed to acquire in-flight such landing skill that he could travel inches above the lawn without so much as scorching it from the jet exhaust. Maybe he guzzled some of that trademark Magical Jet Fuel like it was Moonshine, eh? That's my guess, anyway.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-22   21:48:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1035. To: FormerLurker (#1032)

Is a 757 made by Cessna in your world?

Are you entirely crazy?

Hanjour was certified as both a private pilot and commercial aircraft. The issue is silly.... like all your repeated shit.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   21:49:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1036. To: GreyLmist (#1034)

Maybe he guzzled some of that trademark Magical Jet Fuel like it was Moonshine, eh? That's my guess, anyway.

Probably mixed it with Sterno. I believe the shills on here drink Sterno and KOOK AID but it's really got 'em messed up and they don't even know what they're dur'n (as Shirley Q. Liquor says).

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-22   21:53:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1037. To: buckeroo (#1033) (Edited)

Where is this inside knowledge, FL? You seem to KNOW all about the reasons.....

Let's start from the beginning, since you jumped into a response I made to another person, and didn't quite understand it since you were too lazy to click your mouse to see what was originally said.

Your pal was bloviating about WHY would a "terrorist" steer the jet AWAY from Rumsfeld's office and the high value section of the Pentagon and instead strike a relatively unoccupied section going through renovations, which IS exactly what happened.

I told him that would be because the covert operation didn't wish to cause THAT much damage to the Pentagon. Of course, they obviously didn't wish to kill a lot of high ranking military officers and such either, nor did they wish to kill Secretary Rumsfeld.

THAT is the only logical answer as to WHY the plane veered away from the high value side of the building, since instead it could have easily descended into the ROOF of the building causing extensive damage to much of the building, engulfing it in flames, and possibly killing a whole lot of high ranking people.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:55:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1038. To: buckeroo (#1035)

Are you entirely crazy?

You responded as if you thought I was saying he is alleged to have flown a Cessna into the Pentagon, since you couldn't understand what I meant when I said, "he more than likely couldn't attack the Pentagon with a Cessna, never mind a 757".

Hanjour was certified as both a private pilot and commercial aircraft.

Neither of which he was actually qualified for, according to anyone who tested his "abilities". BTW, his "commercial license" allowed him to fly for hire, but not anything in the way of jet aircraft, just a standard propeller driven plane.

He wasn't capable of flying a SINGLE-ENGINE craft, yet he was supposedly certified on an Apache twin-engine.

The whole story stinks, yet you gobble it up as if it were gospel.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   22:02:50 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1039. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#998)

You cling to your religious belief that 19 "angry ragheads did 911"

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA!!!!

Speaking of ***religious beliefs*****

Professor Steven Jones Clings to His Belief That Jesus Visited the Aboriginal Americans

Behold My Hands: Evidence for Christ's Visit in Ancient America

by Steven E. Jones

The Book of Mormon makes the bold statement that Jesus Christ, shortly following His resurrection, visited people in the New World and invited them to "feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am...the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world. ... Ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice..." (3 Nephi 11:14, 15:21). The Bible states that Jesus "showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days" and that this witness of Christ would be "unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:3-8) and that Jesus would indeed visit "other sheep" (John 10:16).

Several years ago, an idea popped into my head: Would people in the New World who also saw Jesus Christ leave memorials of this supernal experience by showing marked hands of Deity in their artwork?

So I began a search with the following hypothesis-to be tested: Ancient artwork portraying a deity with deliberate markings on his hands will be found somewhere in the Americas.

A crazy idea, maybe - but wait till you see the artwork of the ancient Maya!"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   22:16:34 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1040. To: buckeroo (#1025)

Hanjour is alive like Elvis, Hitler and Michael Jackson? This is getting better and better.

And more than Six Percent of the US population, or 4.2% if you go by 2006 Zogby polls, will believe it!!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   22:18:46 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1041. To: AGAviator (#1039)

Professor Steven Jones Clings to His Belief That Jesus Visited the Aboriginal Americans

Have you lost your mind, or are you just getting super desperate?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   22:19:17 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1042. To: RickyJ (#986)

Everyone that sees WTC come down knows it was a controlled demolition

FOS liar.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   22:22:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1043. To: AGAviator, RickyJ (#1042)

Watch the 40:23 second mark of this video?

LOL!!!

WHAT 40:23 second mark? Is this guy drinking out of the same Sterno both you and buck are chugging?

What sort of bullshit is this, the guy has the video running at super slow motion, and gives his "own" time that we are supposed to just accept on faith.

What a crock.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   22:32:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1044. To: AGAviator, RickyJ, buckeroo, ALL (#1042)

If you want to see a valid and scientific analysis, watch this...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   22:36:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1045. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#1041) (Edited)

Professor Steven Jones Clings to His Belief That Jesus Visited the Aboriginal Americans

Have you lost your mind,

Immediately after falsely accusing buck of a "religious belief," I show you a real and published "religious belief" of K00k in Chief Steven Jones, which you completely ignore becuse you're too stupid to see that you falsely accuse others of all that you're guilty of yourself.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   22:43:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1046. To: buckeroo (#886)

I already showed that his certification records have been witnessed and in the testimony in Congress about 9/11...... why should do your research.... by the way in that same document, it discloses who trained Hanjour and helped him through the testing processes.

Why don't you read the document that I already provided.

At any rate, it means nothing. He crashed FLT77 into the Pentagon. End of story other than the tremendous tragedy these hijackers performed on 9/11.

if that were true your handlers would be able to provide you with video of hanjour boarding flt77 and they'd have no problems releasing all the surveillance video from around the pentagon they confiscated, but they don't because it won't bare out what claimed happened thus putting you and AGovshill and the rest of the members of the liar movement out of work.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-22   22:47:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1047. To: buckeroo, wudidiz, RickyJ, GreyLmist, FormerLurker, James Deffenbach, Rotara, abraxas, Original_Intent (#886)

I already showed that his certification records have been witnessed and in the testimony in Congress about 9/11...... why should do your research.... by the way in that same document, it discloses who trained Hanjour and helped him through the testing processes.

Why don't you read the document that I already provided.

At any rate, it means nothing. He crashed FLT77 into the Pentagon. End of story other than the tremendous tragedy these hijackers performed on 9/11.

if that were true your handlers would be able to provide you with video of hanjour boarding flt77 and they'd have no problems releasing all the surveillance video from around the pentagon they confiscated, but they don't because it won't bare out what claimed happened thus putting you and AGovshill and the rest of the members of the liar movement out of work.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-22   22:48:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1048. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, turtle, RickyJ, abraxas, wudidiz, Original_Intent, ALL (#1039)

Professor Steven Jones Clings to His Belief That Jesus Visited the Aboriginal Americans

Different Steven Jones you bloviating liar. How typical of your style here, unfounded and unwarranted character assassination in order to falsely discredit anything or anyone which disagrees or contradicts your beliefs.

Dr. Stephen Jones - Reverend Dr.

Dr. Stephen Jones - Ph. D. Physics


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   22:51:14 ET  (2 images) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1049. To: AGAviator (#1045) (Edited)

I show you a real and published "religious belief" of K00k in Chief Steven Jones, which you completely ignore becuse you're too stupid to see that you falsely accuse others of all that you're guilty of yourself.

lol......that's NOT physicist Stephen Jones AGABLOWviator. It is ignored because you're too stupid to realize that more than one person could have the extremely common name, Steven Jones.

Real and published OTHER PERSON.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-22   22:55:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1050. To: AGAviator, ALL (#1045)

Immediately after falsely accusing buck of a "religious belief," I show you a real and published "religious belief" of K00k in Chief Steven Jones, which you completely ignore becuse you're too stupid to see that you falsely accuse others of all that you're guilty of yourself.

Speaking of FALSE ACCUSATIONS, you fabricated a story about Dr. Stephen Jones writing a book about Jesus visiting aboriginal Americans. You are STILL CLINGING to this LIE.

You've pretty much demonstrated what sort of incredible low-life liar you are.

What I said to buck is that he clings to his beliefs religiously, based on nothing but faith.

You've actually fabricated a story with huge fonts and red colors falsely reporting Dr. Stephen Jones of being some sort of religious nutjob.

I think that pretty much cements most people's opinions about how credible you are.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   22:56:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1051. To: abraxas, AGAviator (#1049)

lol......that's NOT physicist Steven Jones AGABLOWviator. It is ignored because you're too stupid to realize that more than one person could have the extremely common name, Steven Jones.

He's got to be either a pathological liar or incredibly stupid if he thought he was going to get away with that.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   22:58:04 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1052. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#1051) (Edited)

lol.....I'm sure he thought he REALLY had something there and, of course, he doesn't dig any deeper than a common name prior to posting.

In the end, AGABLOWviator makes himself look like a complete asswipe.....priceless.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-22   23:00:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1053. To: FormerLurker (#1044)

Proves what we've been saying all along.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-22   23:00:52 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1054. To: IRTorqued (#1047)

Yes, they should be forced to release those videos. The ONLY reason that they haven't is they know the videos don't show what they claim or show more than they claim.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-22   23:08:49 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1055. To: abraxas (#1052)

In the end, AGABLOWviator makes himself look like a complete asswipe.

And he is gifted at that. So at least he has that going for him.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-22   23:09:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1056. To: CurrentCircleJerker, buckeroo (#1051)

lol......that's NOT physicist Steven Jones AGABLOWviator

Lying fuckwit anaerobe swill sucker.

Another post, another shameless lie.

Steven E. Jones

Research Interests and Background

Jones conducted research at the Idaho National Laboratory, in Arco, Idaho where, from 1979 to 1985, he was a senior engineering specialist. He was principal investigator for experimental muon-catalyzed fusion from 1982 to 1991 for the U.S. Department of Energy, Division of Advanced Energy Projects. From 1990 to 1993, Jones studied fusion in condensed matter physics and deuterium under U.S. Department of Energy and Electric Power Research Institute sponsorship. Jones also collaborated in experiments at other physics labs, including TRIUMF (Vancouver, British Columbia), KEK (Tsukuba, Japan), and the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory at Oxford University.

Jones' interests also extend to archaeometry, solar energy,[2][3] and, like many professors at BYU, archaeology and the Book of Mormon.[4]

For example, he has sought radiocarbon dating evidence of the existence of pre- Columbian horses in the Americas,[5] and has interpreted archaeological evidence from the ancient Mayans as supporting his faith's belief that Jesus Christ visited America.[6]

I'm starting to think the only creature that tells more lies than you is Satan himself.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   23:17:24 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1057. To: abraxas (#1049)

Real and published OTHER PERSON.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHA yourself, lying circle jerker.

pwned

Steven E. Jones

Research Interests and Background

Jones conducted research at the Idaho National Laboratory, in Arco, Idaho where, from 1979 to 1985, he was a senior engineering specialist. He was principal investigator for experimental muon-catalyzed fusion from 1982 to 1991 for the U.S. Department of Energy, Division of Advanced Energy Projects. From 1990 to 1993, Jones studied fusion in condensed matter physics and deuterium under U.S. Department of Energy and Electric Power Research Institute sponsorship. Jones also collaborated in experiments at other physics labs, including TRIUMF (Vancouver, British Columbia), KEK (Tsukuba, Japan), and the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory at Oxford University.

Jones' interests also extend to archaeometry, solar energy,[2][3] and, like many professors at BYU, archaeology and the Book of Mormon.[4]

For example, he has sought radiocarbon dating evidence of the existence of pre- Columbian horses in the Americas,[5] and has interpreted archaeological evidence from the ancient Mayans as supporting his faith's belief that Jesus Christ visited America.[6]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   23:20:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1058. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#1052)

lol.....I'm sure he thought he REALLY had something there and, of course, he doesn't dig any deeper than a common name prior to posting.

No, stupid fuckwit, you didn't dig any deeper than an off the cuff excuse.

I research my posts. Steven E. Jones the so called physicist is the author of the said work.

Enjoy eating another helping of stagnant $hit. You've earned it.

Steven E. Jones

Research Interests and Background

Jones conducted research at the Idaho National Laboratory, in Arco, Idaho where, from 1979 to 1985, he was a senior engineering specialist. He was principal investigator for experimental muon-catalyzed fusion from 1982 to 1991 for the U.S. Department of Energy, Division of Advanced Energy Projects. From 1990 to 1993, Jones studied fusion in condensed matter physics and deuterium under U.S. Department of Energy and Electric Power Research Institute sponsorship. Jones also collaborated in experiments at other physics labs, including TRIUMF (Vancouver, British Columbia), KEK (Tsukuba, Japan), and the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory at Oxford University.

Jones' interests also extend to archaeometry, solar energy,[2][3] and, like many professors at BYU, archaeology and the Book of Mormon.[4]

For example, he has sought radiocarbon dating evidence of the existence of pre- Columbian horses in the Americas,[5] and has interpreted archaeological evidence from the ancient Mayans as supporting his faith's belief that Jesus Christ visited America.[6]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   23:23:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1059. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#1050)

You've actually fabricated a story with huge fonts and red colors

And a hyperlink which proves you are a lying SOS, and it is in fact pseudo physicist Steven E. Jones making those claims.

Steven E. Jones

Research Interests and Background

Jones conducted research at the Idaho National Laboratory, in Arco, Idaho where, from 1979 to 1985, he was a senior engineering specialist. He was principal investigator for experimental muon-catalyzed fusion from 1982 to 1991 for the U.S. Department of Energy, Division of Advanced Energy Projects. From 1990 to 1993, Jones studied fusion in condensed matter physics and deuterium under U.S. Department of Energy and Electric Power Research Institute sponsorship. Jones also collaborated in experiments at other physics labs, including TRIUMF (Vancouver, British Columbia), KEK (Tsukuba, Japan), and the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory at Oxford University.

Jones' interests also extend to archaeometry, solar energy,[2][3] and, like many professors at BYU, archaeology and the Book of Mormon.[4]

For example, he has sought radiocarbon dating evidence of the existence of pre- Columbian horses in the Americas,[5] and has interpreted archaeological evidence from the ancient Mayans as supporting his faith's belief that Jesus Christ visited America.[6]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   23:25:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1060. To: AGAviator (#1058)

No, stupid fuckwit, you didn't dig any deeper than an off the cuff excuse.

Hey fucktard, besides being a major stupid fuck who loves to post known lies and can't tell the difference between a college professsor with a Ph. D. in Physics and a doctor in divinity who has his own ministry, you have a very foul mouth when you speak to women.

Abraxas is female, so have a bit of class and stop acting like the low-life gutter rat your mom raised you as.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   23:27:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1061. To: AGAviator (#1056)

I'm starting to think the only creature that tells more lies than you is Satan himself.

Lol.....now, that right there is FUNNY.

Well, he was at BYU, so he could have done some work trying to make the Book of Mormon legit. I forgot about that. Still, it doesn't discredit his work in physics simply because he has interestes beyond his field.

The difference between me and you, AGABLOWviator, is that I have no problem admitting that I might not be right all the time.

You see, a lie is when a person INTENTIONALLY misleads another. I can truthfully say, I haven't done that, although I have witnessed YOU do that more than once.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-22   23:31:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1062. To: AGAviator (#1058)

lol........spittin' on your monitor.

Pull those panties out and try to take a deep breath.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-22   23:32:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1063. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#1060)

Hey fucktard, besides being a major stupid fuck who loves to post known lies and can't tell the difference between a college professsor with a Ph. D. in Physics and a doctor in divinity who has his own ministry

you have a very foul mouth when you speak to women.

Abraxas is female

(1) Steven E. Jones the physicist is the author of the piece of work I cite. There is no Steven Jones the doctor of divinity except in your own delusional head.

(2) Anybody who calls me a liar, and is lying himself/herself in doing so, will get the same treatment that any scumsucking cretin gets male or female. If she is a female she's an even more low lifer than Mel Gibson's co dependent, because she's cheering on the rest of you lying sociopaths while Gibson's plaything is trying to protect a child.

If your accomplice wants respect, she'll need to start showing some.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   23:35:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1064. To: abraxas (#1061) (Edited)

. Still, it doesn't discredit his work in physics simply because he has interestes beyond his field.

The point is your lying co dependents first raise the issue of religious beliefs, then deny Steven Jones has any of his own, even to the point of falsely claiming it wasn't the same Steven Jones and giving themselves high fives that I would make such an error which in fact is the truth.

Fact is, it is Steven E. Jones the physicist claiming Christ visited the Mayans, and Jones does in fact have religious beliefs which interfere with his scientific objectivity.

And your co dependents are pathological liars who make false statements as easily as they beathe, without even thinking.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   23:40:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1065. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#1062)

Pull those panties out and try to take a deep breath

You lied.

Nothing to do about panties, except maybe yours and I don't want to go there.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   23:43:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1066. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, turtle, abraxas, Original_Intent, RickyJ, IRTorqued, ALL (#1058) (Edited)

No, stupid fuckwit, you didn't dig any deeper than an off the cuff excuse. I research my posts. Steven E. Jones the so called physicist is the author of the said work. Enjoy eating another helping of stagnant $hit. You've earned it. Steven E. Jones

Hey shit for brains, here's the BIO on Dr. Stephen Jones, Dr. of Divinity (or whatever) who has his own ministry and only obtained a degree in Theology, not Physics...

God's Kingdom Ministries

Dr. STEPHEN E. Jones was born in Marion, Indiana January 29, 1950. At the age of three, his parents went as missionaries to the Philippine Islands under the Christian and Missionary Alliance, and they spent a total of nine years in that far-off land. Upon returning to America, they lived in Minnesota, where Stephen finished high school and then went to St. Paul Bible College and the University of Minnesota, majoring in Philosophy and Humanities. He later received his masters degree and doctorate from the Minnesota Graduate School of Theology.

Now here's some info on the PHYSICIST Dr. STEVEN Jones, Ph. D. Physics.

Education

Jones earned his bachelor's degree in physics, magna cum laude, from Brigham Young University in 1973, and his Ph.D. in physics from Vanderbilt University in 1978. Jones conducted his Ph.D. research at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center (from 1974 to 1977), and post-doctoral research at Cornell University and the Los Alamos Meson Physics Facility.[1]

Research interests and background

Jones conducted research at the Idaho National Laboratory, in Arco, Idaho where, from 1979 to 1985, he was a senior engineering specialist. He was principal investigator for experimental muon-catalyzed fusion from 1982 to 1991 for the U.S. Department of Energy, Division of Advanced Energy Projects. From 1990 to 1993, Jones studied fusion in condensed matter physics and deuterium under U.S. Department of Energy and Electric Power Research Institute sponsorship. Jones also collaborated in experiments at other physics labs, including TRIUMF (Vancouver, British Columbia), KEK (Tsukuba, Japan), and the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory at Oxford University.

Jones' interests also extend to archaeometry, solar energy,[2] [3] and, like many professors at BYU, archaeology and the Book of Mormon.[4] For example, he has sought radiocarbon dating evidence of the existence of pre- Columbian horses in the Americas, [5] and has interpreted archaeological evidence from the ancient Mayans as supporting his faith's belief that Jesus Christ visited America. [6]

Muon-catalyzed fusion

In the mid-1980s, Jones and other BYU scientists worked on what he then referred to as Cold Nuclear Fusion in a Scientific American article, but is today known as muon-catalyzed fusion to avoid confusion. Muon-catalyzed fusion was a field of some interest in the 1980s, but its low energy output appears to be unavoidable (due to alpha-muon sticking losses). Jones led a research team that in 1986 achieved 150 fusions per muon (average), releasing over 2,600 MeV of fusion energy per muon, a record which still stands.[7]

Around 1985 Jones then became interested in the anomalous concentration of helium-3 found in the gases escaping from volcanoes. He hypothesized that the high pressures in the Earth's interior might make fusion more likely, and began a series of experiments on what he referred to as piezofusion, or high- pressure fusion. In order to characterize the reactions, Jones designed and built a neutron counter able to accurately measure the tiny numbers of neutrons being produced in his experiments. The counter suggested a small amount of fusion was going on. Jones said the result suggested at least the possibility of fusion, though the process was unlikely to be useful as an energy source.

Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann (Pons and Fleischmann or P&F) started their work around the same time. Their work was brought to Jones' attention when they applied for research funding from the Department of Energy, after which the DOE passed their proposal along to Jones for peer review. Realizing their work was very similar, Jones and P&F agreed to release their papers to Nature on the same day, March 24, 1989. However, P&F announced their results at a press event the day before. Jones faxed his paper to Nature. [8]

A New York Times article says that while peer reviewers were quite critical of Pons and Fleishchmann's research they did not apply such criticism to Jones' much more modest, theoretically supported findings. Although critics insisted that his results likely stemmed from experimental error,[9] most of the reviewing physicists indicated that he was a careful scientist. Later research and experiments supported the metallic cold fusion reports by Jones.[10]


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   23:48:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1067. To: AGAviator (#1064)

Fact is, it is Steven E. Jones the physicist claiming Christ visited the Mayans, and Jones does in fact have religious beliefs which interfere with his scientific objectivity.

OK, he has a nutty religion. He probably was born into it and really hasn't given it a great deal of thought. If that is the best you can do discredit him then he must be squeaky clean and has very valid points that you have no credible argument against. Well, you actually can't argue against anyone cause you are a retard.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   23:48:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1068. To: AGAviator, ALL (#1064)

The point is your lying co dependents first raise the issue of religious beliefs, then deny Steven Jones has any of his own, even to the point of falsely claiming it wasn't the same Steven Jones and giving themselves high fives that I would make such an error which in fact is the truth.

Fact is, it is Steven E. Jones the physicist claiming Christ visited the Mayans, and Jones does in fact have religious beliefs which interfere with his scientific objectivity.

You are a LYING POS FUCKTARD. Who wrote that POS article on DU, YOU perhaps?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   23:49:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1069. To: AGAviator (#1039)

Can you find a BYU professor who doesn't work on research to make the Book of Mormon legit? It's a prerequisite for hire you know.

I read the paper in it's entirety.......nothing too kooky, simply comparing some Myan artifacts to information in the Book of Mormom.

Again, this doesn't in anyway discredit his work in physics. You do realize that Newton was an excellent student of astrology, the Emerald Tablets and other "occult" works. Do you call Newton a kook too? Oh, that's right, Newton's theories don't jive with your 911 goobermint fairy tale, so he must be a kook.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-22   23:51:34 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1070. To: RickyJ, abraxas, ALL (#1067)

AGLyingShillster is LYING. Dr. Stephen Jones the PHYSICIST in NOT the same Dr. Stephen Jones, Dr. of Theology that AGFag is claiming him to be.

He FABRICATED the minister Stephen Jones background by taking the PHYSICIST Dr. Stephen Jones background and claiming it was the minister's.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   23:52:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1071. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, ALL (#1068)

Who wrote that POS article on DU, YOU perhaps?

He wrote it. But, it's not nearly as kooky as AGABLOWviator wants to make it out to be. It's not a peer reviewed work of science or anything like that, it's simply a BYU pet project, like all BYU profs do as part of their employment contract.

Here's a full link to the paper: Who wrote that POS article on DU, YOU perhaps?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-22   23:53:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1072. To: abraxas (#1069)

Can you find a BYU professor who doesn't work on research to make the Book of Mormon legit?

It's not the same person abraxas, AGAviator fabricated it. He cut and pasted Dr. Stephen Jones background and pasted as the Reverend Stephen Jones background.

The Reverend Jones is NOT a physicist, and only went to school for Theology.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   23:54:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1073. To: AGAviator (#1065)

You lied.

Unlike you, running around calling everybody who disagrees with me a FUCKWIT, I actually looked up the paper and read it, then posted on that reasearch while you continue to spew middle school insults that make you look like an asswipe.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-22   23:56:04 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1074. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#1068)

Sigh, having married a Steven, I can tell you there is a difference between Steven spelled with a V and Stephen spelled with a PH. Someone needs to take a deep breath and get over it.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-22   23:56:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1075. To: abraxas, RickyJ (#1071)

It's not a peer reviewed work of science or anything like that, it's simply a BYU pet project, like all BYU profs do as part of their employment contract.

It's not the same Dr. Jones.

Here's a link to Dr. Jones the reverend...

God's Kingdom Ministries

And here's the wiki page on Dr. Stephen Jones the physicist...

Steven E. Jones


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   23:56:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1076. To: CurrentJerker, buckeroo (#1070) (Edited)

He FABRICATED the minister Stephen Jones background by taking the PHYSICIST Dr. Stephen Jones background and claiming it was the minister's.

Just as with the "Hanjour wasn't a pilot" ***gaffe,*** you're gonna get your punk a$$ kicked on this lie too, goober.

Steven E. Jones the BYU PhD physicist is the identical same person as the author of "Christ visited the Mayans" and I have already provided the links proving this.

You Lie. You Breathe.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   23:56:32 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1077. To: CurrenJerker, buckeroo (#1075)

Here's a link to Dr. Jones the reverend...

God's Kingdom Ministries

Unfortunately Dr. Jones the Reverend did not write the "Christ visited the Mayans" blurb, so you are once again...WRONG.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   23:58:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1078. To: FormerLurker (#1072)

Google the article name and it comes right up in pdf. I provided the link. It's from BYU. It's not a peer reviewed paper. It's more of a power point presentation than a paper.

Profs at BYU do all sorts of side research on such topics.

Jones' interests also extend to archaeometry, solar energy, and, like many professors at BYU, archaeology and the Book of Mormon. For example, he has sought radiocarbon dating evidence of the existence of pre-Columbian horses in the Americas, and has interpreted archaeological evidence from the ancient Mayans as supporting his faith's belief that Jesus Christ visited America. (Wiki)

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-23   0:01:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1079. To: FormerLurker, abraxas (#1072)

It's not the same person abraxas, AGAviator fabricated it. He cut and pasted Dr. Stephen Jones background and pasted as the Reverend Stephen Jones background.

The Reverend Jones is NOT a physicist, and only went to school for Theology.

The physicist one is devout Mormon. There also seems to be a Rev. Jones as well who is not the physicist. Beyond that I have no idea what you guys are talking about, nor do I care. I'm out.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-23   0:03:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1080. To: abraxas, AGAviator, buckeroo, RickyJ, ALL (#1078)

Google the article name and it comes right up in pdf. I provided the link. It's from BYU. It's not a peer reviewed paper. It's more of a power point presentation than a paper.

Profs at BYU do all sorts of side research on such topics.

Ok, I did find it. Thought perhaps AG modified wiki to suit his purpose, but no, I did in fact find the PDF.

So I admit I was wrong, although it IS highly suspicious that their is ANOTHER Dr. Jones, a reverend, spelt with a PH in Stephen rather than a V as in Dr. Steven Jones the physicist.

Odd coincidence, and given AG's honesty, I instantly thought he was up to his old tricks.

So ok AGAviator, I'll admit I'm wrong here. Now when are YOU going to admit you're wrong on the things you ARE wrong about?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   0:09:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1081. To: AGAviator (#1064)

You are such a conspiracy theorist, AGABLOWviator.

Now you think that a mispelling of his name was some sinister play. Then, you make all these stupid and outlandish leaps into my posts that aren't even there.

You've had plenty of your own lies on this thread and the other, but you've never owned up to any. I said take a breather to calm yourself down, stop spitting on your monitor and making an asshole of yourself. Apparently, you simply "can't" stop. It's comical.

You see, I make a mistake which isn't the same as a lie, and I own up to it.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-23   0:09:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1082. To: AGAviator (#1077)

In fact, that's WHY you posted that TOTALLY irrelevant piece of "info" on Jones, you KNEW there was another Dr. Stephen (instead of Steven) E. Jones, who WAS a reverend and you knew either I or someone else would look it up and find it.

Just a cheap way to "score one", eh?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   0:12:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1083. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, buckeroo, RickyJ, ALL (#1080)

So ok AGAviator, I'll admit I'm wrong here. Now when are YOU going to admit you're wrong on the things you ARE wrong about?

Don't hold your breath waiting.

I've made several posts, noting the article and the error. He ignores them all while he continues churning silly conspiracies about the lot of us and calling me a FUCKWIT.

I've noted time and again, when AGABLOWviator is caught in a lie or intentionally spewing disinformation, he checks out for a spell and then returns as if nothing happened a short time later. But, he thinks he so sly that nobody notices.......lol.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-23   0:13:32 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1084. To: AGAviator (#1063)

If your accomplice wants respect, she'll need to start showing some.

lol........yeah, because I'm always chasing posters around calling them fucktard and fuckwit and major stupid fucks when they disagree with me on various issues.

Oh wait, that's you who does that, not me.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-23   0:17:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1085. To: abraxas (#1083)

I've noted time and again, when AGABLOWviator is caught in a lie or intentionally spewing disinformation, he checks out for a spell and then returns as if nothing happened a short time later. But, he thinks he so sly that nobody notices.......lol.

You forgot to add that he declares victory when he returns, hours later.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   0:17:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1086. To: AGAviator (#1064)

Fact is, it is Steven E. Jones the physicist claiming Christ visited the Mayans, and Jones does in fact have religious beliefs which interfere with his scientific objectivity.

A religious belief does not interfere with the ability to perform research on theoretical particles apparently.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   0:19:24 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1087. To: abraxas (#1083)

He ignores them all while he continues churning silly conspiracies about the lot of us and calling me a FUCKWIT.

He probably talks to his mom that way. Really classy guy.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   0:21:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1088. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#1083)

I've made several posts, noting the article and the error. He ignores them all while he continues churning silly conspiracies about the lot of us and calling me a FUCKWIT.

The thread is about "911 conspiracy theories challenged."

Jerker posted an insult to buck, claiming buck had a religious belief about 19 ragheads.

I then posted a factual account of Prof Steven E. Jones's religious belief about Jesus Christ visiting the Mayans, which shows Jones' religious bias and methodology underlying his 911 CT'ers thinking process.

The twit couldn't see the releance of what I posted, and I then had to explain to the twit how the two religious belief allegations had something in common.

The response to this post was the usual cacaphony of personal attacks and lies. The lies have been disproven and the personal attacks therefore are the attacks of proven liars.

He checks out for a spell and then returns as if nothing happened a short time later

None of you has provided any objective proof on anything at any time. All you do is make arm-waving conclusions and zero backup. I don't miss anything in my absences. You're all brain dead repeating the same old nostrums for the past 8 1/2 years.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-23   0:35:52 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1089. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, RickyJ (#1043)

Watch the 40:23 second mark of this video?

LOL!!!

WHAT 40:23 second mark? Is this guy drinking out of the same Sterno both you and buck are chugging?

What sort of bullshit is this, the guy has the video running at super slow motion, and gives his "own" time that we are supposed to just accept on faith.

What a crock.

The liars think the truthers are stupid.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-23   1:01:50 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1090. To: AGAviator, buckeroo (#1088)

Jerker posted an insult

I then posted

The twit

The response to this post

All you do

You're all brain dead

That post is like reading a note taken from a middle school girl.

Yawn.......diversion to bitching duly noted.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-23   1:09:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1091. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, abraxas (#1088) (Edited)

Jerker posted an insult to buck, claiming buck had a religious belief about 19 ragheads.

The only "jerkers" here are you and buck, and I'm sure you're both very close.

It's also quite obvious that you BOTH have a fervent religious belief in the "Official 9/11 Faerie Tale ™", and that you both get highly agitated and foam at the mouth whenever anybody posts facts and evidence that contradicts your religous belief in that story.

That you decided to play games here and post about a professor's private life in terms of his religion shows how desparate you are. You have nothing else, so you resort to character assassination to "win" your "argument", somehow projecting that man's sincere religious beliefs across the entire spectrum of topics that relate to 9/11, to prove we are all "k00ks".

What a piece of work you are. That's why I thought you fabricated it, since you WOULD stoop that low if you thought you could get away with it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   1:11:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1092. To: wudidiz (#1089)

The liars think the truthers are stupid.

He more than likely did his Dr. Jones show in order to push that video off the current view, so that people couldn't see how ridiculous his video was, and the claims he made stating how accurate it was and how we're all stupid.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   1:13:41 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1093. To: FormerLurker (#1092)

The liars think the truthers are stupid.

He more than likely did his Dr. Jones show in order to push that video off the current view, so that people couldn't see how ridiculous his video was, and the claims he made stating how accurate it was and how we're all stupid.

I don't understand why someone would want to be a part of the liar movement.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-23   1:24:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1094. To: FormerLurker (#1002)

Since building 7 could NOT have collapsed any other way than by controlled demolition, do you think some guy stood there with a Bic lighter inside the building and lit a fuse?

with the caliber of his other posts I'd say bucky is that stupid and more often than not the only thing to come out of his mouth on the subject is AGovshill's penis.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-23   1:26:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1095. To: James Deffenbach (#1054)

it would cause the unemployment numbers to jump by three; as bucky, AGovshill and turtle would be out of liar movement work.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-23   1:41:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1096. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#1090)

.......diversion to bitching duly noted.

The thread is about "911 conspiracy theories challenged."

You haven't done too well on any of those.

Being debunked on

(1) The 9.22 freefall time,
(2)The AA cabin door not opening claims,
(3) Claims that Hajour couldn't fly and never had a license,
(4) Denials that Prof. Steven E. Jones authored "Christ Visited the Mayans,"
(5) Claims of "molten steel" which was actually burning aluminum and office fire trash,
(6) The kinetic energy of the WTC airliner crashes being over 1 giagajoule,
(7) Trashing Thomas Eagar without providing any substantive facts on his WTC explanation, his CV, or his patents,
(8) The false claim that structures falling at less than near free fall speeds are still CD's when in fact CD companies spend months setting up buildings to make sure they fall straight down as quickly as possible,
(9) The statement by Controlled Demoliton President Mark Loziaux that it would simply not be possible for any WTC building to be prepped for CD's without being seen,
(9) The back pedaling on a statement by a former CD employee saying he actually does not know what caused the WTC collapses, but he is putting forth scenarios of equipment he believes could have been used,
(10) The easily debunked statements about insider trading pre 911,
(11) The false claim the WTC building was designed to withstand a 600 mph jet crash when in fact it was designed for a 250 knot air space speed the max allowed where it was located,
(12) The idiotic claim that "they" wanted to hit the Pentagon, but only in harmless places - it was all part of the conspiracy to whack New York but not Washington Pentagon chickenhawks,
(13) Over 30 phone calls describing hijackers recorded giving seat numbers and hijacker descriptions,
(14) "Pull" = "pull down with cables" construction, and = "pull back" fire fighters,
(15) Niels Harrit "peer review" = $800 pay to publish Dubai hole in the wall
Yeah, if I got clouted on these issues and others I'd try to make it personal too.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-23   1:46:32 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1097. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#1091)

A professor's private life in terms of his religion

You're the one who introduced "religious belief" into the discussion thread about challenges to demolition theory," anaerobe.

You can dish it out but can't take it. No surprise from a loser. That's how you all operate.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-23   1:50:32 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1098. To: AGAviator, buckaroo (#1096)

I'd try to make it personal too.

Who are you trying to fool? Er, let's see who is it calling others FUCKWIT, FUCKTARD, stupid fuck.....yada, yada, yada.

What a hypocrite you are!! Like I said, your diversion to bitching and insults are duly noted. Now, put the stones down, no need tossing them at others from your glass house.

Epic fail on what you deem a "clouting" on 1-15......more delusions of adequacy.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-23   1:55:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1099. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle (#1098) (Edited)

Epic fail on what you deem a "clouting" on 1-15......more delusions of adequacy

Zobgy says 4.2% as of 2006. Got any better numbers? I give you Six Percent and that's being generous.

You've had 8 years. How many Congress people, how many local elected officials? How many of the 60something lawsuits against Obama have even gotten to discovery instead of immediate dismissals and fulminations from the bench about filing false evidence, not following protocol correctly, in order to try to make political points not suited for court cases.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-23   2:02:46 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1100. To: abraxas (#1098)

AGovshill must be dipping into bucky's sterno a bit heavy tonight. at best the members of the liar movement could be sited as examples of how well the dumbing down of America is progressing.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-23   2:03:24 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1101. To: AGAviator (#1099)

An entire post of polls regarding the public calling bovine excrement on the 911 fairy tale has already been posted here at 4um. Has it's own thread.

We all know you saw it, read it and then opted to ignore it.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-23   2:06:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1102. To: IRTorqued (#1100)

the members of the liar movement

Being debunked on

(1) The 9.22 freefall time,
(2)The AA cabin door not opening claims,
(3) Claims that Hajour couldn't fly and never had a license,
(4) Denials that Prof. Steven E. Jones authored "Christ Visited the Mayans,"
(5) Claims of "molten steel" which was actually burning aluminum and office fire trash,
(6) The kinetic energy of the WTC airliner crashes being over 1 giagajoule,
(7) Trashing Thomas Eagar without providing any substantive facts on his WTC explanation, his CV, or his patents,
(8) The false claim that structures falling at less than near free fall speeds are still CD's when in fact CD companies spend months setting up buildings to make sure they fall straight down as quickly as possible,
(9) The statement by Controlled Demoliton President Mark Loziaux that it would simply not be possible for any WTC building to be prepped for CD's without being seen,
(9) The back pedaling on a statement by a former CD employee saying he actually does not know what caused the WTC collapses, but he is putting forth scenarios of equipment he believes could have been used,
(10) The easily debunked statements about insider trading pre 911,
(11) The false claim the WTC building was designed to withstand a 600 mph jet crash when in fact it was designed for a 250 knot air space speed the max allowed where it was located,
(12) The idiotic claim that "they" wanted to hit the Pentagon, but only in harmless places - it was all part of the conspiracy to whack New York but not Washington Pentagon chickenhawks,
(13) Over 30 phone calls describing hijackers recorded giving seat numbers and hijacker descriptions,
(14) "Pull" = "pull down with cables" construction, and = "pull back" fire fighters,
(15) Niels Harrit "peer review" = $800 pay to publish Dubai hole in the wall

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-23   2:09:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1103. To: AGAviator (#1102) (Edited)

The easily debunked statements about insider trading pre 911,

Retard, you didn't debunk that. Posting some "official investigation" doesn't debunk that their was without a shadow of a doubt enough shorting and put options going on a few days before 9/11 on the EXACT compaines that would be damaged and gain from the terror attacks that ony a REATRD would say they didn't know what was up.

YOU HERE ME RETARD! ONLY A RETARD WOULDN"T KNOW THEY KNEW!

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-23   2:23:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1104. To: RickyJ (#1103)

enough shorting and put options going on a few days before 9/11 on the EXACT

The biggest money was made on 911 by buying call options or stock in the weeks or so everybody else was panicking and selling right after the crash. Only idiots think people made big dollars on put options, when every person with apparently questionable put rades was noted and interviewed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-23   2:58:49 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1105. To: AGAviator, abraxas, RickyJ, IRTorqued, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach (#1096)

You haven't done too well on any of those.

Being debunked on

(1) The 9.22 freefall time,

Lie. It WOULD HAVE taken 9.22 seconds for an object to fall from the top of the North Tower.

(2)The AA cabin door not opening claims,

That has not been proven one way or another. It is still an open question.

(3) Claims that Hajour couldn't fly and never had a license,

Hanjour was a totally inept pilot, according to his instructors. They called the FAA to verify he actually had a license, since they couldn't believe it was real as he wasn't qualified to have one, yet somehow he did.

(4) Denials that Prof. Steven E. Jones authored "Christ Visited the Mayans,"

Like that has anything to do with the 9/11 attacks, eh?

(5) Claims of "molten steel" which was actually burning aluminum and office fire trash,

You did not prove anything of the sort. You made claims, but proved nothing.

(6) The kinetic energy of the WTC airliner crashes being over 1 giagajoule,

Yeah, so?

(7) Trashing Thomas Eagar without providing any substantive facts on his WTC explanation, his CV, or his patents,

He blew smoke up your ass and you enjoyed it. He does not explain anything scientifically regarding 9/11, and I inadvertently gave him more credit than he deserved since I thought he HAD done some sort of analysis. Apparently he just tossed out a bunch of lies (hugely exaggerated the amount of fuel for one, and tried to say that a structure's inertia will tear it down, rather than RESIST motion).

(8) The false claim that structures falling at less than near free fall speeds are still CD's when in fact CD companies spend months setting up buildings to make sure they fall straight down as quickly as possible,

Again you're being an idiot. A NORMAL controlled demolition would do just that, take it down as quickly as possible. A STAGED TERRORIST ACT which is being sold as THERE ARE NO EXPLOSIVES in the building can NOT behave the same as an obvious controlled demolition, since people even dumber than you would know that's exactly what it was.

(9) The statement by Controlled Demoliton President Mark Loziaux that it would simply not be possible for any WTC building to be prepped for CD's without being seen,

And he lied. His former employee, Tom Sullivan, said it would VERY possible using the elevator shafts. Oddly enough, there WAS work being done on the elevators just weeks before 9/11.

(9) The back pedaling on a statement by a former CD employee saying he actually does not know what caused the WTC collapses, but he is putting forth scenarios of equipment he believes could have been used,

Huh? He said that it was a controlled demolition due to the nature of the collapse. The exact equipment can't be determined, but the fact remains that it did happen.

(10) The easily debunked statements about insider trading pre 911,

You never posted any proof of that.

(11) The false claim the WTC building was designed to withstand a 600 mph jet crash when in fact it was designed for a 250 knot air space speed the max allowed where it was located,

That is what the designer claimed, and stated that studies had been done confirming that.

(12) The idiotic claim that "they" wanted to hit the Pentagon, but only in harmless places - it was all part of the conspiracy to whack New York but not Washington Pentagon chickenhawks,

Why would they hit themselves and cripple the means for them to launch two different wars?

(13) Over 30 phone calls describing hijackers recorded giving seat numbers and hijacker descriptions,

You never posted any real evidence of that, you just parroted the silly claims made alleging that's what happened. In reality, even the DOJ had to admit at the Moussaoui trial that Barbara Olson only called her husband once that day, and the call didn't go through, so either Solicitor Olson had lied, or somebody else pretending to be his wife called him.

(14) "Pull" = "pull down with cables" construction, and = "pull back" fire fighters,

Not proven.

(15) Niels Harrit "peer review" = $800 pay to publish Dubai hole in the wall

Who cares.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   3:00:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1106. To: AGAviator (#969)

A 2006 Zogby poll actually put the number who believe "The USG did it" at 4.2%.

I am being generous when I call you Six Percenters.

Doubtful your intention is to be generous. Either you're mistakenly wrong on your percentages because you just don't know any better yet or you're being an intentionally lying disinfo artist. Take your pick but the first option is no longer a valid choice after this post:

Video w/printed stats from 4um thread: 911 Polls - You Are Not Alone

ThoughtCrime7 | August 18, 2007

How many people believe 9/11 was an inside job? Below are results of 8 polls by Zogby, Scripps, Angus Reid, 911Inquiry.Org and some non-scientific polls also.

Scientific Polls:

CBS/Angus Reid, Oct 2006
58% say that gov't officials are "lying" in the 9/11 Commission Report - only 16% say they are telling the truth when asked the question "When it comes to what they knew prior to September 11th, 2001, about possible terrorist attacks against the United States, do you think members of the Bush Administration are telling the truth, are mostly telling the truth but hiding something, or are they mostly lying?"
(LIHOP theory)
Link: http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/...

ZOGBY, Feb 2006
49.3% of New York City residents and 41% of New York citizens overall say that some of our leaders "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act".
(LIHOP theory)
Link: http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.db...

SCRIPPS/HOWARD, July 2006
36% of respondents overall said it is "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that federal officials either participated in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon or took no action to stop them "because they wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East."
(Covers both LIHOP and MIHOP theories)
Link: http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll

911INQUIRY.ORG, May 2004
63% of Canadians agreed that "Individuals within the U.S. Government including the White House had prior knowledge of the plans for the events of September 11th, and failed to take appropriate action to stop them". Additionally, 16% of Canadians believe that individuals within the U.S. Government were involved in the planning and execution of the events of September 11th.
(47% LIHOP, 16% MIHOP, 63% combined)
Link: http://www.911inquiry.org/911PollResu...

Non-Scientific Polls:

MSNBC, Sept 2006 up to present (Oct 2007)
"Do you believe any of the conspiracy theories suggesting the U.S. government was somehow involved in 9/11?"
(Covers both LIHOP and MIHOP theories)
YES: 67%
link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14727720

CNN, Nov 2004
"Do you believe there is a US government cover up surrouning 911?" (Question is too vague to specify LIHOP or MIHOP - could be interpreted as a coverup of incompetence only)
YES: 89%
Link: http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept...

COLBERT NATION, June 2006
"Was 9/11 an inside job?" (MIHOP)
YES: 66%
Link: removed

AM 640 Radio Toronto, August 2006
"Was 9/11 an inside job?" (MIHOP)
YES: 85%
Link: http://640toronto.com/station/corus_q...

Booyah

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-23   3:22:34 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1107. To: AGBloviator, AGAviator, FormerLurker, abraxas, James Deffenbach, wudidiz, all (#1102)

You do truly crack me up bloviator. Are you double jointed? If not your elbow must be in a lot of pain from patting yourself on the back. Although I would guess you have good lung capacity as you are continually tooting your own horn.

(1) The 9.22 freefall time,

Debunked? Hardly. 9.22 Seconds is the rate at which an object dropped from the highest point on the towers would take, in a vacuum, to hit the ground. No one maintains that the towers collapsed in 9.22 seconds. They did however collapse at a rate consistent with a controlled demolition. 16 seconds for one which is about 1.66 the freefall rate, and 22 seconds for the other about 2.29 times the pure freefall rate, and they collapsed neatly into their own footprints. However, you will continue to weasel on the point, but although a relevant datum the entire case does not rest on it.

(2)The AA cabin door not opening claims,

The nice thing about being on the side of truth? You can be wrong once in a while. Unlike you who must slavishly defend every twist and turn in the Official Conspiracy Theory and believe multiple contradictory datums.

(3) Claims that Hajour couldn't fly and never had a license,

No one claims he did not have a license. Like a true debunker you can't even get your facts straight before you try to distort them. Sure he had a license - a "Learner's Permit" which is what a "Commercial Certificate" in effect is. It gives one permission to train on such aircraft, but does not grant the right to fly a normal Passenger Airliner.

From the thread on Al Qaeda's "Top Gun":

"In an apparent attempt to bolster the misleading characterization that Hanjour began training "in earnest", the 9/11 also stated that it took only "Several more months" to obtain his commercial pilot certificate. In fact, it took Hanjour another year of training before he managed to obtain that second certificate. On April 15, 1999, the FAA issued a commercial pilot certificate to him under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor."24 The certificate was issued by Daryl M. Strong, an independent contractor for the FAA, with an "Airplane Multiengine Land" rating. To obtain the certificate, Hanjour’s records show he flew his check ride in a Piper PA 23-150 "Apache", a four-seat twin-engine plane, which Hanjour was in command of for 14.8 hours of the 27 hours completed for the test.35

Contrary to the Washington Post’s assertion that this certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets", in fact it only allowed him to begin passenger jet training. Hanjour did so, only to fail the class.36 As the Associated Press reported, the "certification allowed him to begin passenger jet training at an Arizona flight school despite having what instructors later described as limited flying skills and an even more limited command of English."37

Furthermore, there remains an open question about whether Hanjour was actually qualified to receive that certificate in the first place. According to Heather Awsumb, a spokeswoman for Professional Airways Systems Specialists (PASS), a union that represents FAA employees, "The real problem is that regular oversight is handed over to private industry", since private contractors "receive between $200 and $300 for each check flight. If they get a reputation for being tough, they won’t get any business."38

To obtain a commercial pilot license, the applicant must "Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language." It seems highly dubious that Hanjour met that qualification, as the 9/11 Commission itself acknowledges that his English skills were inadequate. The certificate does not allow its holder to fly any commercial aircraft, but is issued for "the aircraft category and class rating sought". Hanjour only trained in light propeller planes like the single-engine Cessna and twin-engine Piper, and had never flown a jet aircraft."39

(4) Denials that Prof. Steven E. Jones authored "Christ Visited the Mayans,"

And your point? This affects the physics of 911 how? The numbers and data either add up or they do not. What Prof. Jones religious beliefs are has no bearing on basic physics, the mathematics of motion, or whether there are chemical traces of advanced Super Thermite residue in the dust from the explosively demolished Twin Towers and WTC 7.

(5) Claims of "molten steel" which was actually burning aluminum and office fire trash,

Which Dr. Jones ran experiments on in the laboratory and regardless of what you add to molten aluminum it is still silvery in appearance not dull red orange like molten steel. Molten Steel that could not be produced by the weak and oxygen starved fires in the towers. Of course I presume you are as knowledgeable about metallurgy as you are of commercial aviation ratings.

(6) The kinetic energy of the WTC airliner crashes being over 1 giagajoule,

And your point? It still does not change the fact that the towers were designed to absorb that and still stand. As well a raw number is a raw number. For the number to have any significance you have to be able to say how the energy was directed and to what effect. The trajectory of the plane hitting the South Tower was oblique and angled away from the core, which was the central load bearing structure for the tower, as evidenced by the nose of the plane exiting the corner - and the huge fireball as the atomized fuel flowed out and harmlessly, but spectacularly, exploded outside the building.

(7) Trashing Thomas Eagar without providing any substantive facts on his WTC explanation, his CV, or his patents,

Bullshit. I posted a full rebuttal on one of the threads. Eager is a Rent-a-Prof and whatever honors or patents he might hold are irrelevant and to cite them is simply a Red Herring and an Appeal To Misleading Authority as they have nothing to do with how physical laws operate nor in how the Twin Towers were constructed. Eager's "Pancake"s and Syrup theory ignores the central load bearing structures of the buildings, the heavy cross braced steel columns, and focuses on the windscreen. I repeat Eager is a boob who was bought for the occasion. He will not defend his thesis in a public forum and will not entertain interviews from anyone who might ask relevant questions about the holes in his, pardon the exxageration, "hypothesis". Which is just a hypothesis as he has never supported it with any scientific rigor, paper, or any other publication subject to professional review.

(8) The false claim that structures falling at less than near free fall speeds are still CD's when in fact CD companies spend months setting up buildings to make sure they fall straight down as quickly as possible,

Strawman Argument. No controlled demolition falls at freefall velocity. They ALL fall at near freefall velocity - just as did the twin towers and WTC 7 - which was not hit by airplane.

(9) The statement by Controlled Demoliton President Mark Loziaux that it would simply not be possible for any WTC building to be prepped for CD's without being seen,

Unsupported assertion made by a man who relies on government contracts for his living. In fact he was awarded one of the contracts for the clean-up at Ground Zero. One of his former employees, as you well know, says that they do look like controlled demolitions.

(9) The back pedaling on a statement by a former CD employee saying he actually does not know what caused the WTC collapses, but he is putting forth scenarios of equipment he believes could have been used,

Since we do not know exactly how they were rigged that is nothing more than an honest caveat. It is not backpedaling it is something you are unfamiliar with - integrity.

(10) The easily debunked statements about insider trading pre 911,

Oh, so the Put volume on AA and UAL in the week before being many times normal is not an anomalous datum huh? Just one of those coincidences eh? LOL!

(11) The false claim the WTC building was designed to withstand a 600 mph jet crash when in fact it was designed for a 250 knot air space speed the max allowed where it was located,

Again your misrepresentation is largely hot air and bloviation. The fact is the towers were designed with the impact of a Boeing 707 with a heavier fuel load in mind. While you may try to minimize this and obscure the fact they WERE designed to withstand an aircraft impact.

Oh, and what kind of plane did you say hit WTC 7?

(12) The idiotic claim that "they" wanted to hit the Pentagon, but only in harmless places - it was all part of the conspiracy to whack New York but not Washington Pentagon chickenhawks,

Sheer bloviation on your part. The evidence speaks for itself. Flt 77 was on approach to the Pentagon and could have easily dove and hit the section of the building holding all the brass, but instead it circles around and then makes a tight spiral descent of 7,000 feet in 2.5 minutes while executing a 320 degree turn, exceeding the limitations of the airframe's theoretical maximum stress, to line up and make a level flight approach at tree top height for a mile, then accelerating to 460 Knots (530 MPH) to hit a wall 71 feet high while overcoming ground effect and wingtip vortices in a maneuver that professional pilots looking at it have expressed doubt they could have done it, and we are to believe that an incompetent flight school drop out just by pure chance picked the one wall in the Pentagram guaranteed to do the least damage, while destroying inconvenient audit records on the missing 2.3 TRILLION dollars. I know just another crazy coincidence. Kind of like winning the lottery 5 weeks running.

(13) Over 30 phone calls describing hijackers recorded giving seat numbers and hijacker descriptions,

Which given the technology, analog, and the transmitter strength of the phones was technically impossible. We have already debunked the Ted Olson calls - one call - duration Zero.

(14) "Pull" = "pull down with cables" construction, and = "pull back" fire fighters,

More weasling. Lucky Larry's exact words were "we decided it would be best to pull the building". Demolition slang for setting off the charges to pull a building down. I bet you were right there with good ol' Bubba Bill on the meaning of "is" too.

(15) Niels Harrit "peer review" = $800 pay to publish Dubai hole in the wall

And in what way does that invalidate the research data? Again this has been refuted and we both know it is not a refutation of his research and analysis but a veiled Argumentum Ad Hominem to try and discredit the research without actually doing so.

As usual you are weighed in the balance and found wanting. You are little more than a low level disinformation artist who could not think your way out of paper bag without your "talking points". You engage routinely in logical fallacies, misrepresentations, and personal attacks. You are simply an ill mannered lightweight and a quisling.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-23   3:25:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1108. To: wudidiz, FormerLurker (#1093)

The liars think the truthers are stupid.

He more than likely did his Dr. Jones show in order to push that video off the current view, so that people couldn't see how ridiculous his video was, and the claims he made stating how accurate it was and how we're all stupid.

I don't understand why someone would want to be a part of the liar movement.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Either that, money i.e. paid, or psychoses. Take your pick.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-23   3:32:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1109. To: AGAviator (#1096) (Edited)

(9) The statement by Controlled Demoliton President Mark Loziaux that it would simply not be possible for any WTC building to be prepped for CD's without being seen,

I'm going to be generous, AGA, and give you one more chance to stop peddling that baseless nonsense bolded above which I cautioned you earlier about here: Post #982

Cease and desist pretending that there isn't more than enough in evidence there and in the NIST report to debunk that farcical "talking point" of the guv issued fable, else you will be deemed exposed and PWND as a Willful Liar.

As for Loizeaux, he states himself that 9/11 ruined him on account of everybody got too scared of loud noises after that, so that should be a clue to you that he isn't playing with a full deck, as they say. Obviously, the real reason his business disipated afterwards was because his prospective customers musta lurnt there's no use for his expensive "artform" anymore. All that's necessary is to punch a hole -- or a few holes -- in a building, sprinkle it with some trademark Magical Jet Fuel, light up a match, and wait a bit for it to burn down into its own footprint, yes?

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-23   6:20:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1110. To: IRTorqued (#1095)

it would cause the unemployment numbers to jump by three; as bucky, AGovshill and turtle would be out of liar movement work.

Maybe they could find some honest work. What you reckon?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-23   7:56:53 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1111. To: IRTorqued (#1100)

AGovshill must be dipping into bucky's sterno a bit heavy tonight. at best the members of the liar movement could be sited as examples of how well the dumbing down of America is progressing.

I guess it proves that saying about how no one is completely worthless, that even the worst among us can be pointed to as bad examples if nothing else.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-23   7:58:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1112. To: FormerLurker (#1105)

In your reply to blowviator, you said (in part): "...A STAGED TERRORIST ACT which is being sold as THERE ARE NO EXPLOSIVES in the building can NOT behave the same as an obvious controlled demolition, since people even dumber than you would know that's exactly what it was..."

What I want to know is where do you find such people (dumber than blowviator) outside mental institutions?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-23   8:04:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1113. To: FormerLurker (#1105) (Edited)

blowviator: (14) "Pull" = "pull down with cables" construction, and = "pull back" fire fighters,

No firefighters were engaged in fighting the fires at the time Silverstein made his comment, a fact which has been posted before. But no matter what, the idiots in the liar movement keep on "catapulting the propaganda" making outlandish claims and insulting the intelligence of anyone who has kept up at all.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-23   8:06:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1114. To: GreyLmist (#1109)

As for Loizeaux, he states himself that 9/11 ruined him on account of everybody got too scared of loud noises after that, so that should be a clue to you that he isn't playing with a full deck, as they say. Obviously, the real reason his business disipated afterwards was because his prospective customers musta lurnt there's no use for his expensive "artform" anymore. All that's necessary is to punch a hole -- or a few holes -- in a building, sprinkle it with some trademark Magical Jet Fuel, light up a match, and wait a bit for it to burn down into its own footprint, yes?

LOL!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-23   8:15:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1115. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#1038)

buckeroo: Hanjour was certified as both a private pilot and commercial aircraft.

FormerLurker: Neither of which he was actually qualified for, according to anyone who tested his "abilities". BTW, his "commercial license" allowed him to fly for hire, but not anything in the way of jet aircraft, just a standard propeller driven plane.

Wait a minute. You have repeatedly danced around Hanjour's "lack of certifications" for piles of posts on this thread and at least one other about your silly-wet dream of a cabin door. Now, that I provided hard factual evidence of those same certifications, you are saying he wasn't really qualified.

What the fuck are you doing? The guy was trained to fly ... and knew instrumentation required to steer the craft where he wanted. As AG as repeatedly told you this does not mean he was the caricature of your expert flying class called "top gun." You are blowing shit out of your keyboard.

FL: you are a wiggling out of your own claims backed into a corner with no leg to stand upon.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   14:33:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1116. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, James Deffenbach, all (#1115) (Edited)

buckeroo: Hanjour was certified as both a private pilot and commercial aircraft.

FormerLurker: Neither of which he was actually qualified for, according to anyone who tested his "abilities". BTW, his "commercial license" allowed him to fly for hire, but not anything in the way of jet aircraft, just a standard propeller driven plane.

Wait a minute. You have repeatedly danced around Hanjour's "lack of certifications" for piles of posts on this thread and at least one other about your silly-wet dream of a cabin door. Now, that I provided hard factual evidence of those same certifications, you are saying he wasn't really qualified.

What the fuck are you doing? The guy was trained to fly ... and knew instrumentation required to steer the craft where he wanted. As AG as repeatedly told you this does not mean he was the caricature of your expert flying class called "top gun." You are blowing shit out of your keyboard.

Still catapulting the lies I see.

Hanjour had the license equivalent of a "Learner's Permit" for commercial aircraft to train on the class of aircraft he allegedly sought to pilot. However, he never completed his training, was NOT rated to fly an airliner, he cut class, was rated by ALL of his instructors as a terrible student and even worse pilot. He NEVER flew a jet aircraft - the largest thing he ever flew was a twin engine propeller driven Piper Apache (Just like "Penny" flew, much more competently, in the 50's kids TV program "Sky King". For bonus points what was the name of her plane?) four seater.

Attempting to assert that Hanjour was a qualified pilot and capable enough to perform the observed maneuvers is simply a lie and a distortion of the clear facts - Hanjour was incompetent as a pilot. It cannot be characterized any other way. To assert otherwise is simply disinformation. Why do you find it necessary to use disinformation tactics?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-23   14:50:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1117. To: buckeroo (#1115)

Wait a minute. You have repeatedly danced around Hanjour's "lack of certifications" for piles of posts on this thread and at least one other about your silly-wet dream of a cabin door. Now, that I provided hard factual evidence of those same certifications, you are saying he wasn't really qualified.

If he couldn't fly a Cessna, nor speak English, it's obvious he SHOULDN'T have been issued any sort of pilot's license, private OR commercial.

I just wanted to see if there WERE any copies of said license or certificate online, since it would provide info as to who the idiot was who signed off on it. It was either part of building the "legend" around Mr. Hanjour(Hanjoor), or outright negligence on the part of the FAA examiner.

Hopefully those with the power to investigate will dig into it more. I'm not holding my breath though.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   14:51:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1118. To: Original_Intent (#1116)

He NEVER flew a jet aircraft - the largest thing he ever flew was a twin engine propeller driven Beechraft four seater.

If even THAT is to be believed. BTW, I thought the claim was an Apache twin- engine?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   14:52:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1119. To: FormerLurker (#1118)

I might have misremembered - it might have been a Piper Apache. I'll check.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-23   14:54:41 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1120. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#1116)

Attempting to assert that Hanjour was a qualified pilot and capable enough to perform the observed maneuvers is simply a lie and a distortion of the clear facts - Hanjour was incompetent as a pilot. It cannot be characterized any other way. To assert otherwise is simply disinformation. Why do you find it necessary to use disinformation tactics?

It's what he does here, and doing it just as much as any other shill that's ever tried to kill discussion about things the masters wish to keep hidden.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   14:55:23 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1121. To: FormerLurker (#1118)

I stand corrected - it was a Piper Apache.

"... The certificate was issued by Daryl M. Strong, an independent contractor for the FAA, with an "Airplane Multiengine Land" rating. To obtain the certificate, Hanjour’s records show he flew his check ride in a Piper PA 23-150 "Apache", a four-seat twin-engine plane, which Hanjour was in command of for 14.8 hours of the 27 hours completed for the test.35

Contrary to the Washington Post’s assertion that this certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets", in fact it only allowed him to begin passenger jet training. Hanjour did so, only to fail the class.36 As the Associated Press reported, the "certification allowed him to begin passenger jet training at an Arizona flight school despite having what instructors later described as limited flying skills and an even more limited command of English."37

Furthermore, there remains an open question about whether Hanjour was actually qualified to receive that certificate in the first place. According to Heather Awsumb, a spokeswoman for Professional Airways Systems Specialists (PASS), a union that represents FAA employees, "The real problem is that regular oversight is handed over to private industry", since private contractors "receive between $200 and $300 for each check flight. If they get a reputation for being tough, they won’t get any business." ..."

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-23   14:58:04 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1122. To: Original_Intent (#1116)

Still catapulting the lies I see.

Hanjour had the license equivalent of a "Learner's Permit" for commercial aircraft to train on the class of aircraft he allegedly sought to pilot. However, he never completed his training, was NOT rated to fly an airliner, he cut class, was rated by ALL of his instructors as a terrible student and even worse pilot. He NEVER flew a jet aircraft - the largest thing he ever flew was a twin engine propeller driven Beechraft four seater.

Attempting to assert that Hanjour was a qualified pilot and capable enough to perform the observed maneuvers is simply a lie and a distortion of the clear facts - Hanjour was incompetent as a pilot. It cannot be characterized any other way. To assert otherwise is simply disinformation. Why do you find it necessary to use disinformation tactics?

Hey O_I ... get it through that thick skull of yours that this thread is about the demolition theory of the WTC.

When FL repeatedly spun Hanjour's background.... look it up your self BSer .... I jumped in and posted the documentation about those certifications AND his records of flight instruction to INCLUDE his instructor.

The issues about Hanjour's background on this thread are silly. BUT, he was able to use the electronic systems of a plane. And Hanjouir did a poor job of it.

Your denial ... is proof that you have nothing in that thick, mass called a cranium..... it is a vacuum.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   15:02:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1123. To: James Deffenbach (#1112)

What I want to know is where do you find such people (dumber than blowviator) outside mental institutions?

Good question, although the answer is right in front of us. I've heard that AGAviator and buckeye are twins.

Here's their photo (I'm guessing the one on the right is buck) ..


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   15:03:53 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1124. To: buckeroo (#1122)

Sorry bucky but Bzzzzzzzt! Wrong again - the assertions made, when and where, are not relevant to exposing your misrepresentations. Well, I don't have any more time to play with you now. Why don't you play with yourself?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-23   15:05:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1125. To: Original_Intent (#1119)

I might have misremembered

Posting PC crap again? The original documentation is right here on this thread... instead of "misremembering" you could (at least) look it up.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   15:05:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1126. To: buckeroo (#1122)

When FL repeatedly spun Hanjour's background.... look it up your self BSer .... I jumped in and posted the documentation about those certifications AND his records of flight instruction to INCLUDE his instructor.

And according to his instructors, he was a terrible student and even worse pilot. One said, "he couldn't fly at all". One school called the FAA to verify that he actually possessed a license, thinking that what he presented was a fake, since he lacked any of the skills required of a person holding that sort of license.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   15:06:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1127. To: Original_Intent (#1124)

Wrong again - the assertions made, when and where, are not relevant to exposing your misrepresentations.

You are insane.... FL has repeatedly misrepresented Hanjour has his "Holy Grail."

What a silly, nitwit you are in publick.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   15:07:17 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1128. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#1125)

Unlike you, OI admits when he made an error, one which was largely insignificant compared to your whoppers, which you've NEVER retracted.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   15:08:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1129. To: FormerLurker (#1126)

And according to his instructors, he was a terrible student and even worse pilot. One said, "he couldn't fly at all". One school called the FAA to verify that he actually possessed a license, thinking that what he presented was a fake, since he lacked any of the skills required of a person holding that sort of license.

So what?

You are the guy that kept driving this thread to Hanjour's background... I have proved you don't know anything but how to spin even your coverups about your own posts here on this thread.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   15:08:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1130. To: buckeroo (#1127)

You are insane.... FL has repeatedly misrepresented Hanjour has his "Holy Grail."

What have I misrepresented there whackjob? I ASKED for a copy of his license, and you posted it, so WHAT?

The evidence and documentation indicates he was NOT qualified to hold that license.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   15:10:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1131. To: FormerLurker (#1128)

OI admits when he made an error

That blowfish? ROTFL.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   15:10:17 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1132. To: James Deffenbach (#1110)

Maybe they could find some honest work. What you reckon?

Oh no, honest work is for honest people. I reckon used car salesman, pyramid marketing, selling ponzi schemes, rolling winos or pushing big pharma wares.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-23   15:12:34 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1133. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, abraxas, wudidiz, IRTorqued, GreyLmist, RickyJ (#1129) (Edited)

So what?

So what? So what if he couldn't fly, and should never have held the license he is said to possess?

Besides demonstrating he COULD NOT have flown Flight 77 AT ALL, never mind flying it like a fighter jet, it raises questions as to WHY he was issued that license to begin with.

As pointed out, the commericial license is basically a learner's permit for more advanced flight training, which he failed to complete, skipping class and doing poorly while present.

However, a certain level of skill and ability is expected of one holding such a license, and Hanjour did NOT possess those skills or abilities.

The person who signed off on his FAA exam should be prosecuted for fraud, and/or fired for blatent incompetence and negligence, for starters.

More than likely it was not just an oversight, however, and was knowingly done by operatives in order to create a "legend" (intelligence word for a false background) for Hanjour, building him up to be this highly qualified (or at least SOMEWHAT qualified) individual who could believably have pulled off piloting a 757 from Ohio to Washington, and performing the manuevers that the aircraft was witnessed to have performed.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   15:21:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1134. To: buckeroo (#1115)

What the fuck are you doing? The guy was trained to fly ... and knew instrumentation required to steer the craft where he wanted.

Not according to his instructors. He couldn't navigate, and couldn't do much more than fly a single-engine aircraft straight while already up in the air. I've done that myself when I was 9 years old or so.

From Al Qaeda’s Top Gun

Buried in the footnote for the paragraph suggesting Hanjour began training "in earnest", the 9/11 Commission report acknowledged that "Hanjour initially was nervous if not fearful in flight training" and that "His instructor described him as a terrible pilot."33 FBI documents cited by the Commission reveal that witnesses from the school told investigators that "Hanjour was a terrible pilot. Hanjour had difficulty understanding air traffic control, the methods for determining fuel management and had poor navigational skills." The FBI was told by one witness that "the only flying skill Hanjour could perform was flying the plane straight", and that "he did not believe Hanjour’s poor flying skills were due to a language barrier." He was "a very poor pilot who did not react to criticism very well. Hanjour was very, very nervous inside the cockpit to the point where Hanjour was almost fearful."32


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   15:32:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1135. To: FormerLurker (#1134)

He went through flight training... he received certification. His later antics on 9/11 PROVE he was far from an expert.

Why are you continuing to dismiss important details.... Hanjour flew AAFLT77 and crash landed the plane into the Pentagon) ... yes, your pal, Stutts doesn't know his ass from a hole in the wall just like yourself.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   15:36:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1136. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#1097)

You're the one who introduced "religious belief" into the discussion thread about challenges to demolition theory," anaerobe.

You can dish it out but can't take it. No surprise from a loser. That's how you all operate.

He can't keep track of the WTC demolition theory ... so he even brings up Hanjour.... making that an issue for a hundred posts (compounded by his circle- jerk friends into about 200 posts) ... and when confronted with facts.... all of a sudden, he nacksteps to another level of discussion ... such as "well, his trainers said dis or dat" ...

This guy FL is a squirmer of continuous BS ....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   15:44:26 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1137. To: AGAviator (#1096)

(1) The 9.22 freefall time, (2)The AA cabin door not opening claims, (3) Claims that Hajour couldn't fly and never had a license, (4) Denials that Prof. Steven E. Jones authored "Christ Visited the Mayans," (5) Claims of "molten steel" which was actually burning aluminum and office fire trash, (6) The kinetic energy of the WTC airliner crashes being over 1 giagajoule, (7) Trashing Thomas Eagar without providing any substantive facts on his WTC explanation, his CV, or his patents, (8) The false claim that structures falling at less than near free fall speeds are still CD's when in fact CD companies spend months setting up buildings to make sure they fall straight down as quickly as possible, (9) The statement by Controlled Demoliton President Mark Loziaux that it would simply not be possible for any WTC building to be prepped for CD's without being seen, (9) The back pedaling on a statement by a former CD employee saying he actually does not know what caused the WTC collapses, but he is putting forth scenarios of equipment he believes could have been used, (10) The easily debunked statements about insider trading pre 911, (11) The false claim the WTC building was designed to withstand a 600 mph jet crash when in fact it was designed for a 250 knot air space speed the max allowed where it was located, (12) The idiotic claim that "they" wanted to hit the Pentagon, but only in harmless places - it was all part of the conspiracy to whack New York but not Washington Pentagon chickenhawks, (13) Over 30 phone calls describing hijackers recorded giving seat numbers and hijacker descriptions, (14) "Pull" = "pull down with cables" construction, and = "pull back" fire fighters, (15) Niels Harrit "peer review" = $800 pay to publish Dubai hole in the wall

Excellent track records of the significant points, AG .... my GOD ... then there are the spin-offs... "I didn't tay dat" ... and when confronted with the actual post of their BS .... "U don't no how 2 red."

The shit gets thick on a thread this long.... what is pretty cool... is it is all here.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   15:48:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1138. To: FormerLurker (#1091)

It's also quite obvious that you BOTH have a fervent religious belief in the "Official 9/11 Faerie Tale ™", and that you both get highly agitated and foam at the mouth whenever anybody posts facts and evidence that contradicts your religous belief in that story.

You dumbfuck.... it is apparent you continue to digress because you were beated to a pulp on your silly, contrived SPAM as a function of conspiracy theories.... now religion is introduced.

Man, can you stay on track? Where is the evidence about the demolitions... not, "I heard did or dat" not, "it is obvious" ... where is fucking evidence?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   15:52:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1139. To: FormerLurker (#1091)

The only "jerkers" here are you and buck, and I'm sure you're both very close.

Go FUCK YOURSELF, YOU SON_OF_A_BITCH... I anm tired of your BS. Go creep back into your little circle jerk friends and play center point.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   15:54:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1140. To: FormerLurker (#1123)

Here's their photo (I'm guessing the one on the right is buck) ..

LOL! They both look completely addled. But, they are keepin' it real...real dumb.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-23   15:57:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1141. To: FormerLurker (#1130)

The evidence and documentation indicates he was NOT qualified to hold that license.

And the guy who issued it should be prosecuted.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-23   15:59:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1142. To: buckeroo (#1135)

He went through flight training... he received certification. His later antics on 9/11 PROVE he was far from an expert.

You have it somewhat backwards. His trainers state that he skipped class, and did extremely poorly when he DID attend class. They describe him as a terrible student and even worse pilot, who basically couldn't fly at all.

As far as the manuevers that the alleged Flight 77 performed in its attack on the Pentagon, only a SUPER pilot could have pulled that off, and more than likely only a remote pilot using COMPUTER ASSISTED guidance and control (beyond the NORMAL computer aids that help control the aircraft in flight) could have pulled that off, especially the final approach aspect of the flight.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   15:59:24 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1143. To: abraxas (#1132)

Oh no, honest work is for honest people. I reckon used car salesman, pyramid marketing, selling ponzi schemes, rolling winos or pushing big pharma wares.

Well, I don't believe buck could work "rolling winos" because of professional courtesy but maybe he could do some of that other stuff (when he isn't inventing a new kernel for the net).

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-23   16:00:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1144. To: buckeroo (#1139)

Go FUCK YOURSELF, YOU SON_OF_A_BITCH... I anm tired of your BS. Go creep back into your little circle jerk friends and play center point.

Sorry buck, I'm not familiar with that term, "center point". Can you or your circle mate AGAviator explain that me?

It's pretty well known that you guys both have a lot of experience in "circle jerks".


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   16:01:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1145. To: buckeroo (#1138)

you were beated to a pulp on your silly, contrived SPAM

So FBI reports, witness testimony, news reports, and excerpts from the 9/11 Commission report is "SPAM", while your incessant bloviating and nastiness is the "good stuff", eh?

If anything there buck, you've beaten YOURSELF to a pulp here on this thread.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   16:04:34 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1146. To: buckeroo (#1137)

Excellent track records of the significant points

More like an excellent example of the lies you and your pal have attempted to perpetrate here on this forum.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   16:05:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1147. To: abraxas (#1090)

That post is like reading a note taken from a middle school girl.

You would know, wouldn't ya? You haven't introduced one idea on this thread that is worth any merit other than a laff....

You believe in a conspiracy? Where's the PROOF about it? With wud's chemtrails?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   16:07:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1148. To: buckeroo (#1135)

your pal, Stutts doesn't know his ass from a hole in the wall

Stutts wrote software which performs the task of decompressing and decoding the raw flight recorder data, which is something YOU obviously could NEVER do, Mr. MSEE.

BTW, have you figured out what TCP/IP is yet?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   16:08:20 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1149. To: wudidiz (#1089)

The liars [referring to AG and myself] think the truthers are stupid.

The only truth you have laid claim to is your hear is up your ass.... with the chemtrails, the FEMA coffins and piles of other shit......

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   16:09:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1150. To: abraxas (#1083)

I've made several posts, noting the article and the error.

You are lucky to even make a post much less discuss PROOF about your silly notions..... no research, no facts ... just BS.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   16:12:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1151. To: abraxas (#1081)

You [AG] are such a conspiracy theorist, AGABLOWviator.

Oh aren't you clever ... not facts.... other than hot-aire.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   16:13:41 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1152. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#1080)

So I admit I was wrong

FL: you are an idiot... you post without thinking or considering your own posts.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   16:15:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1153. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#1076)

Just as with the "Hanjour wasn't a pilot" ***gaffe,*** you're gonna get your punk a$$ kicked on this lie too, goober.

FL... has already had his ass kicked on piles of details... all he can respond with NOW ... "oh, his flight instructors didn't think Hanjour was competent."

Now, I know why you call FL a "dickwad" ... it is because he is.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   16:19:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1154. To: buckeroo (#1152)

you are an idiot... you post without thinking or considering your own posts.

Uh huh. Funny how your pal decided to smear Dr. Steven E. Jones by bringing up his religion, where there IS another Dr. Jones, Dr. Stephen E. Jones, who IS a minister, where the two could easily be confused as the same person.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   16:20:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1155. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#1068)

You [AG] are a LYING POS FUCKTARD.

It is all too apparent YOU don't know anything.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   16:21:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1156. To: buckeroo (#1151)

Oh aren't you clever ...

Yes, but there's no need to be all envious Buck. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-23   16:26:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1157. To: buckeroo, AGAviator, ALL (#1153)

FL... has already had his ass kicked on piles of details...

Any remotely sane person would admit that Hanjour was NOT qualified to be a pilot. ALL the evidence and testimony indicates he SHOULD NOT have been issued ANY sort of pilot's license, much less a commericial license.

That he WAS somehow issued that license indicates one of two things;

A) The current procedures in place in terms of FAA exams are shoddy and ill- conceived, where there are a LOT of incompetent pilots up the in air putting the public at risk.

B) The license was NOT earned, and issued to him solely to build up a "legend" of him being a somewhat competent pilot.

He was too incompetent to even rent a single engine Cessna 172, after being "checked out" THREE times by two different flight instructors. Yet you expect people to believe he flew a 757 like an ace pilot, performing manuevers even experienced airline pilots couldn't perform.

Yet he NEVER FLEW ANY SORT OF JET AIRCRAFT prior to his alleged antics aboard Flight 77.

Are you REALLY that stupid buck?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   16:28:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1158. To: All (#1157)


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   16:31:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1159. To: FormerLurker (#1157)

Any remotely sane person would admit that Hanjour was NOT qualified to be a pilot.

But that is NOT the issue you originally posed countless times. You said he wasn't credentialed.... I have proven that you don't no diddly-squat and more than that ... now you have squirmed away into this blather.

You are agreeing with both AG and myself. Look at the way he flew AAFLT77... his antics were not based on anything resembling good methods.

As always, loser... you lose again... search the thread about your own topic... YOU FUCKED UPPED.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   16:33:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1160. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, James Deffenbach, all (#1157)

Are you REALLY that stupid buck?

Is that a rhetorical question?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-23   16:34:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1161. To: Original_Intent (#1160)

You have no FACTS, NO DATA ... just blather.... go back to your BP threads and complain "WE ARE DYING" or some such silly nonsense .....

Come back with facts and links.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   16:35:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1162. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, James Deffenbach, abraxas, AGBloviator, AGAgitator, AGAviator, all (#1159)

Any remotely sane person would admit that Hanjour was NOT qualified to be a pilot.

But that is NOT the issue you originally posed countless times. You said he wasn't credentialed.... I have proven that you don't no diddly-squat and more than that ... now you have squirmed away into this blather.

You are agreeing with both AG and myself. Look at the way he flew AAFLT77... his antics were not based on anything resembling good methods.

As always, loser... you lose again... search the thread about your own topic... YOU FUCKED UPPED.

You are being dishonest again buckie.

You, and AGGravator, have been misrepresenting Hanjour's LEARNER'S PERMIT as a license to BE a commercial pilot, when all it did was give him a license to LEARN to be a commercial pilot UNDER SUPERVISION.

With all the records and testimony we know HE WAS NOT a competent pilot, a point you and AGBloviator keep trying to avoid having to admit.

You are now engaging in another disinformation ploy to attempt to shift the emphasis to something other than the FACT that Hanjour was an incompetent pilot who had never flown anything larger that a four seat twin engine Piper Apache, and HAD NEVER flown ANY kind of jet aircraft.

Now you are attempting to confuse issues further by shifting from he was a wizard of a pilot to only an incompetent would do the kind of maneuvers he performed and yet professional pilots, with many hours of cockpit experience, are saying that the maneuvers took an extremely high degree of professional skill.

So, which one are you going to settle on buck? You have held both positions as it suited at the moment that he was both an Airplane Wizard ready and able to do combat aerobatics with a Jumbo Passenger Liner AND was an incompetent who demonstrated so by performing the exact same maneuvers, which were described by Air Traffic Control as looking like a military jet, as the the wizard.

You are again engaging in disinformation and misrepresenting the data to suit your conclusion not examining the data and reaching an honest conclusion based on what the FACTS tell us.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-23   16:49:06 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1163. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, all (#1161)

You have no FACTS, NO DATA ... just blather.... go back to your BP threads and complain "WE ARE DYING" or some such silly nonsense .....

Come back with facts and links.

Uh, buck?

Earth to buck!

Earth to buck!

Do you read me buck?

You are engaging in an Argumentum Ad Hominem again. As we both know that when it is indicated I do post appropriate links, but I am not your research librarian, and I don't need a link to point out that you are engaging in a logical fallacy - again. Although you will note I did post a link to the appropriate logical fallacy.

And here is the appropriate link from Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation:

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-23   16:55:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1164. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker (#1160)

I believe he is "catapulting the propaganda." Bush would be SO very proud of him.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-23   16:58:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1165. To: James Deffenbach (#1164)

He's definitely catapulting something.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-23   17:01:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1166. To: buckeroo, ALL (#1159)

But that is NOT the issue you originally posed countless times. You said he wasn't credentialed.... I have proven that you don't no diddly-squat and more than that ... now you have squirmed away into this blather.

I never said he wasn't, although I repeatedly QUESTIONED THE VALIDITY of any such credentials, as did his own flight instructors. I asked you to produce a copy of the certificate or license, as he was OBVIOUSLY NOT QUALIFIED to have one.

So ok, you dug and found something, which caused me to look up the name Hani HANJOOR (as appears on his paperwork) rather than the name Hani HANJOUR, which is what is widely reported to be his name.

THAT'S when I found the information I posted on the following thread;

Al Qaeda’s Top Gun : Willful Deception by the 9/11 Commission

That information proves beyond ANY shadow of a doubt that Hanjour was NOT qualified to fly, and it's beyond ludricrous to claim that he flew Flight 77 in the manner in which it flew.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   17:14:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1167. To: buckeroo (#1150)

I've made several posts, noting the article and the error.

You are lucky to even make a post much less discuss PROOF about your silly notions..... no research, no facts ... just BS.

Let me assist by knocking you up side the head with a clue by four Buck.

I was discussing the article written by Prof. Jones that I had originally questioned if he had actually written it. The several posts were actually indicating that AGABLOWviator was correct that Prof. Jones had written the article in question and that I was in error.

It would be more productive for you to brush up on your reading comprehension, rather than your bitching and complaining.......lol. BS indeed.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-23   17:14:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1168. To: buckeroo (#1152)

FL: you are an idiot... you post without thinking or considering your own posts.

lol....take your own advice there Buckie.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-23   17:16:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1169. To: buckeroo, ALL (#1159) (Edited)

You are agreeing with both AG and myself. Look at the way he flew AAFLT77... his antics were not based on anything resembling good methods.

You are insane. By showing you how he COULDN'T have possibly flown that aircraft, you are trying to say I agree with you?

Have you lost your mind?

The manner in which that plane was flown was described by air traffic controllers as resembling how a high performance military jet would be flown, where only a highly skilled pilot could accomplish such manuevers, if they were even possible in a 757, which is debatable.

Yet you continue to lie about what has been said here, it's your ONLY tool since the truth is NOT on your side.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   17:17:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1170. To: Original_Intent (#1160)

Is that a rhetorical question?

I'm still trying to figure out if it's an act. I mean, how many people are really THAT stupid?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   17:19:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1171. To: buckeroo (#1161)

It's apparent that you are engaging in the SAME EXACT lies and misrepresentations which have been directed at the American People since 9/11 concerning ANY of the facts which relate to 9/11.

I hope the pay is good, because if there is such a thing as an afterlife, you will be quite unhappy for a long time.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   17:23:35 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1172. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, James Deffenbach, all (#1170)

Is that a rhetorical question?

I'm still trying to figure out if it's an act. I mean, how many people are really THAT stupid?

Given that he is artfully stupid I would tend to think that it is an intentional front and that he is not quite as stupid as he acts and posts - merely deceitfully stupid.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-23   18:22:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1173. To: Original_Intent (#1172)

Given that he is artfully stupid I would tend to think that it is an intentional front and that he is not quite as stupid as he acts and posts - merely deceitfully stupid.

Well he and AGAviator have both certainly helped bring the 9/11 truth message out by forcing us to respond with facts and reason against their false claims, junk science, and misrepresentations. Look at the view count of this thread...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   18:37:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1174. To: FormerLurker, Original_Intent, all (#1173)

Well he and AGAviator have both certainly helped bring the 9/11 truth message out by forcing us to respond with facts and reason against their false claims, junk science, and misrepresentations. Look at the view count of this thread...

You know what is uproariously funny? Buck getting his kiester handed to him on his own thread. LOL!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-23   18:53:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1175. To: James Deffenbach, Original_Intent (#1174)

You know what is uproariously funny? Buck getting his kiester handed to him on his own thread. LOL!

That's probably what caused him to throw such awful tantrums, run away, and sulk.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   18:59:34 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1176. To: buckeroo, AGAviator (#1137) (Edited)

9) The statement by Controlled Demoliton President Mark Loziaux that it would simply not be possible for any WTC building to be prepped for CD's without being seen,

I'm going to reprint Post #1109 here, which was addressed to AGAviator, because the link in it to Post #982 isn't working there. Here it is again with that link fixed:

#1109. To: AGAviator (#1096) (Edited)

(9) The statement by Controlled Demoliton President Mark Loziaux that it would simply not be possible for any WTC building to be prepped for CD's without being seen,

I'm going to be generous, AGA, and give you one more chance to stop peddling that baseless nonsense bolded above which I cautioned you earlier about here: Post #982

Cease and desist pretending that there isn't more than enough in evidence there and in the NIST report to debunk that farcical "talking point" of the guv issued fable, else you will be deemed exposed and PWND as a Willful Liar.

As for Loizeaux, he states himself that 9/11 ruined him on account of everybody got too scared of loud noises after that, so that should be a clue to you that he isn't playing with a full deck, as they say. Obviously, the real reason his business disipated afterwards was because his prospective customers musta lurnt there's no use for his expensive "artform" anymore. All that's necessary is to punch a hole -- or a few holes -- in a building, sprinkle it with some trademark Magical Jet Fuel, light up a match, and wait a bit for it to burn down into its own footprint, yes?

-------

The title of this topic is: 9/11 demolition theory challenged. The info accesible through Post #982 refutes claims like Mark Loizeaux's - - not just challenges them but refutes (with data from the NIST report even, as evidence) the false premise that the WTC buildings couldn't be prepped for CD without being seen. This is one more warning that continuing to push that nonsensical premise of the Official Conspiracy Theory will result in the ramification of discrediting yourselves as Willful Liars. It would therefore be in your best interests to concede the point that prepping controlled demolitions definitely could have been done covertly and move on to debating fire from planes "physics" v. controlled demolition.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-23   19:28:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1177. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#1098) (Edited)

Er, let's see who is it calling others FUCKWIT, FUCKTARD, stupid fuck.....yada, yada, yada.

So let's see where the stink bomb throwing on this thread started, shall we?

#41. To: buckeroo (#39)
perfect, asswipe
Rotara posted on 2010-07-17 20:14:03 ET

#44. To: Rotara (#42)
Lol.......I have a sinister plan to pay for all of that counseling. Draft a ten step plan: How to get onto Buck's Bozo Filter. Many at 4um will open their wallets happily for such a valuable, dare I say priceless, information. They will pay double if the plan applies to AGAviator.
abraxas posted on 2010-07-17 20:20:34 ET

#108. To: buckeroo (#104)
wow and you learned how to use the blink tag too, that must be why they made you a ranking member of the liar movement you are a down right genieass.
IRTorqued posted on 2010-07-18 0:36:32 ET

#117. To: AGAviator (#116)
...
Shit, if you can't even watch the f'n video where the eye witnesses will tell you exactly what you are asking of me, then you are hopeless and you really don't want any answers to the questions you pose.
The witnesses clearly articulate AN EXPLOSION.......watch for yourself or shut your pie hole.
abraxas posted on 2010-07-18 1:14:15 ET

#119. To: abraxas, AGAviator (#117)
...
Objection your honor! There is no evidence that the accused puts pie in it. (I do so love double entendres.) ;-)
Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-18 1:18:53 ET

#127. To: AGAviator (#126)
...
How can you simply lie like that on a public forum? As if others won't notice that your are blatantly dishonest. What a dork!!
abraxas posted on 2010-07-18 2:48:06 ET

#146. To: AGAviator (#142)
I'm not interested in your dishonesty about the contents of the video. I know what the WITNESSES stated.......only you think you know more about what they witnessed despite being far, far away.
...
YOU, nowhere near the buildings (kissing government ass in another state I suspect), claim that YOU know more about these explosions that frickin' EYE WITNESSES and people who WORKED in the buildings and people who SAVED LIVES on that day. YOU and the government can IGNORE them, but that only discredits your official bullshit story more.
You run along and tell these people who were there that they are full of shit and only YOU know the truth of the matter. I know, not only are you a liar but you are also a coward who wouldn't say word one to them if you had them front and center, but it's real easy to talk shit about what they witnessed from such a distance.
abraxas posted on 2010-07-18 15:53:33 ET

#148. To: abraxas (#146)
Good post, abraxas.
James Deffenbach posted on 2010-07-18 16:18:59 ET

#157. To: buckeroo (#154) ...
Photographic evidence and testimony from demo EXPERTS, not Internet bloviators, confirm that.
abraxas posted on 2010-07-18 17:06:12 ET

From the thread history, it's very clear you "FUCKWITS, FUCKTARDS, and stupid fucks" start the name calling, then snivel and whine when you get repaid in kind.

As for you personally, Circle Jerk Fag Hag, you have long ago forefeited any privileges being female by your own disrespect for others.

Your role as a group cheerleader for a group of cowardly jerkoffs who hide behind banning filters, then take sneak peeks by looking at replies, makes you someone deserving of the type of rants Mel Gibson serves up to Oksana.

Fuck you in your a$$, hypocritical Circle Jerk Fag Hag.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-23   20:19:41 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1178. To: James Deffenbach, buckeroo (#1174)

You know what is uproariously funny? Buck getting his kiester handed to him on his own thread. LOL!

No, what's uproariously funny is a cowardly circle jerk eunuch like you hiding behind a banning filter, but still trying to get pot shots in by postings to 3rd parties without ever answering questions directly.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-23   20:22:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1179. To: All (#1176) (Edited)

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-23   20:26:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1180. To: Original_Indent, buckeroo (#1162)

You, and AGGravator, have been misrepresenting Hanjour's LEARNER'S PERMIT

Another lie.

It was a commercial pilot license, which was valid and signed off as of April 15, 1999.

You can't even read a full size document, enlarged right in front of your face.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-23   20:26:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1181. To: AGAviator (#1177)

Fuck you in your a$$, hypocritical Circle Jerk Fag Hag.

Gee, AGABLOWviator, you have put two of my posts in that "display" that is somehow supposed to prove something.

Note, that in neither of my posts do I call you FUCKWIT, FUCKTARD or anything of the sort.

Egads, now you want to go anal on ME? You are two gross for words, pal.

lol.....coming from the master of circle jerks who has anal sex on his mind, I'll take it all with a big ol' grain o' salt.

Thanks for once again proving my point.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-23   20:29:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1182. To: AGAviator, christine (#1177)

As for you personally, Circle Jerk Fag Hag, you have long ago forefeited any privileges being female by your own disrespect for others.

Your role as a group cheerleader for a group of cowardly jerkoffs who hide behind banning filters, then take sneak peeks by looking at replies, makes you someone deserving of the type of rants Mel Gibson serves up to Oksana.

Fuck you in your a$$, hypocritical Circle Jerk Fag Hag.

Wow, that's showing some real class there buttwipe. You're a real tough guy on the Internet aren't you. I bet you crap your pants when you speak to women in real life...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   20:50:50 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1183. To: AGAviator (#1180)

It was a commercial pilot license, which was valid and signed off as of April 15, 1999.

A commercial license allows a person to take advanced training on particular types of aircraft, it isn't a license to actually fly a jet for instance.

Try again.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   20:54:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1184. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker, AGAviator (#1162)

You, and AGGravator, have been misrepresenting Hanjour's LEARNER'S PERMIT as a license to BE a commercial pilot

Hey asswipe... your buttbuddy, FL made his license a BFD On at least 50 separate posts from 527 thrpough 904 until I produced the documentation on 907 and 909.... not AG or myself. Look it up yourself on this thread.

And so when I PROVE the documentation, its just a "learner's permit" .... FUCK YOU weasel.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   21:02:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1185. To: FormerLurker (#1183)

A commercial license allows a person to take advanced training on particular types of aircraft, it isn't a license to actually fly a jet for instance.

HEY ASSWIPE ... you begged for the documentation for at least 50 posts.... now you are saying something else.

FL: You are now FUCKINGLIAR in my book.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   21:07:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1186. To: FormerLurker, christine, AGAviator (#1182)

Wow, that's showing some real class there buttwipe. You're a real tough guy on the Internet aren't you. I bet you crap your pants when you speak to women in real life...

Ahhh.. telling the site hostess that you got your ass kicked? Poor widdle puppy.....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   21:08:31 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1187. To: abraxas (#1181)

Note, that in neither of my posts do I call you FUCKWIT, FUCKTARD or anything of the sort.

You have been egging AG on throughout with BS, lack of knowledge and certainly without any originality.

Yeah... you have really caused a problem.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   21:10:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1188. To: AGAviator (#1180)

You [O_I] can't even read a full size document, enlarged right in front of your face.

He is a dumbfuck, for sure.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   21:11:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1189. To: AGAviator, James Deffenbach (#1178)

No, what's uproariously funny is a cowardly circle jerk eunuch like you hiding behind a banning filter, but still trying to get pot shots in by postings to 3rd parties without ever answering questions directly.

That is Jimmies way ... he is just a side-liner rooting in the shit without a single creative thought..... even an imagined one.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   21:12:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1190. To: GreyLmist (#1176)

The title of this topic is: 9/11 demolition theory challenged. The info accesible through Post #982 refutes claims like Mark Loizeaux's

That isn't the author of the article of this thread.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   21:14:55 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1191. To: FormerLurker (#1175)

That's probably what caused him to throw such awful tantrums, run away, and sulk.

You have continuously lied, badgered, and fucked the thread up with off topics such Hanjour's background. You have spent days and tens if not at least hundreds of posts throwing this thread off track.

You are a proven liar, FUCKINGLIAR.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   21:17:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1192. To: James Deffenbach (#1174)

You know what is uproariously funny? Buck getting his kiester handed to him on his own thread. LOL!

Hey! Peanut gallery.... you don't know your ass from a hole in the wall.... just like your pals.... that have lied and swindled this thread into total BS.....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   21:18:32 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1193. To: buckeroo, AGAviator, christine (#1186)

Ahhh.. telling the site hostess that you got your ass kicked? Poor widdle puppy.....

Er, no retard, I was bringing it to christine's attention that your pal AGAviator is saying some pretty nasty things to a woman on this thread, KNOWING that she's a woman, and going over the top with his graphic sexual fantasies directed towards her.

How not surprising you support his behavior.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   21:20:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1194. To: Original_Intent (#1172)

Given that he is artfully stupid I would tend to think that it is an intentional front and that he is not quite as stupid as he acts and posts - merely deceitfully stupid.

As always ... no fact no truth .. just BS....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   21:20:24 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1195. To: buckeroo (#1191)

You are a proven liar, FUCKINGLIAR.

Hitting the bottle again buckie? You shouldn't mix that stuff with Sterno.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   21:21:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1196. To: FormerLurker, christine, AGAviator (#1193)

Er, no retard, I was bringing it to christine's attention that your pal AGAviator is saying some pretty nasty things to a woman on this thread, KNOWING that she's a woman, and going over the top with his graphic sexual fantasies directed towards her.

How not surprising you support his behavior.

Hey dickwad ... you don't know anything... but silly BS.... you have caused the issues of being offensive yourself. The thread PROVES IT, FUCKINGLIAR.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   21:22:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1197. To: FormerLurker (#1195)

Go fuck yourself... you can't dio any original research yourself but copy and paste shit from a conspiracy website.

I am tired of you wasting time. You have lied ... and then you lie to cover up your lies.

FUCK OFF.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   21:23:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1198. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent, AGAviator (#1184)

And so when I PROVE the documentation, its just a "learner's permit" .... FUCK YOU weasel.

I asked you to post a copy of the license, and it took you what, 400 posts or so to finally cough it up?

So ok, I was able to find Hanjour's name was spelt HANJOOR on his license, and with that I found some facts about his real background and abilities, which I posted on the following thread, which totally disproves any notion that he had the ability to fly an airplane, where his flight instructors called the FAA to see if he really had a commericial license, since he didn't have the skills required to fly an airplane nor could he adequately speak or understand English, which is ALSO a requirement for a valid license;

Al Qaeda’s Top Gun - Willful Deception by the 9/11 Commission


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   21:29:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1199. To: buckeroo, AGAviator, ALL (#1196)

Hey dickwad ... you don't know anything... but silly BS.... you have caused the issues of being offensive yourself. The thread PROVES IT, FUCKINGLIAR.

Oh yes buckie, I'M the one being offensive here, not you. Oh no, not you or your precious little AGAviator.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   21:31:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1200. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#1198)

I asked you to post a copy of the license, and it took you what, 400 posts or so to finally cough it up?

YOU FUCKING LIAR... you only asked about that somewhere in the 9xx directed to me.

Meanwhile, you have consumed the BW of this thread into silly prattle based on Hanjour from posts in the early 500s directed towards AG.

As always you lose, asswipe. You have been not been just a dickwad ... but a silly waste of my time.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   21:34:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1201. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#1199)

I'M the one being offensive here, not you.

Finally, the truth!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   21:35:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1202. To: buckeroo (#1197)

I am tired of you wasting time. You have lied ... and then you lie to cover up your lies.

Thing is buckwheat, YOU are the one who is lying here. I've not lied once, for one it's dishonest and immoral, and for two, why SHOULD I lie when I have the truth?

You spin, lie, accuse others of what you have just done, then repeat the cycle, over and over and over, where the only other person LYING here is your boyfriend, AGAviator, whom you apparently are very protective of.

yukon and Mad Dog appear to have a similar relationship. Hmmm.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   21:36:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1203. To: buckeroo (#1201)

Finally, the truth!

Never an opportunity goes by to take things out of context, where you take a sarcastic remark and repost it as if that is ALL I said.

You really ARE a little weasle, aren't you buckwheat.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   21:38:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1204. To: FormerLurker (#1198)

Al Qaeda’s Top Gun - Willful Deception by the 9/11 Commission

Fuck your BS links.... no math, no physics, no witnesses, no FACTS ... nothing but silly "probably babble."

It means nothing to me.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   21:39:49 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1205. To: FormerLurker (#1203)

Don't ping me anymore.. FUCKINGLIAR.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   21:40:20 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1206. To: buckeroo (#1204)

no math, no physics, no witnesses, no FACTS

Well at least you admit that's what you've been posting, just pure BS.

You have no clue as to physics, where I HAVE tried to converse with you about some VERY BASIC facts, such as the rate at which falling objects accelerate and hit the ground.

YOU were trying to sell the idea that the time it would take for the TOP of the towers to hit would depend on which part of the structure started collapsing first, where if it started collapsing below the top, the top would hit the ground SOONER than it would take for an object to fall the same distance through air.

That's how well you understand simple Jr. High School science, never mind high school physics.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   21:55:23 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1207. To: buckeroo (#1204)

Fuck your BS links....

Yep, hard evidence bothers you, doesn't it buckie...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   21:56:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1208. To: buckeroo (#1205)

Don't ping me anymore.. FUCKINGLIAR.

Stop posting your bullshit to me, and stop posting bullshit about me.

Admit that you've lied throughout the thread, otherwise I'll be forced to correct you each time you do.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   21:57:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1209. To: ALL (#1206)

this thread has degenerated to such a degree that i'm locking it. it's accomplishing nothing except for an embarrassing display of vulgarity.

christine  posted on  2010-07-23   22:01:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


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