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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: The 9/11 conspiracy plots thicken
Source: Seattle Times
URL Source: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht ... /2003250424_911conspire09.html
Published: Sep 09, 2006
Author: Michael Powell, wapo
Post Date: 2010-07-19 22:23:35 by Dakmar
Keywords: None
Views: 15203
Comments: 989

They are politically diverse and include academics, ex-officials and Web surfers. All share a belief that the Bush administration played a role in the 9/11 attacks. Their numbers seem to speak to Americans' innate distrust of their government.

By Michael Powell

The Washington Post

NEW YORK — He felt no shiver of doubt in those first terrible hours.

He watched the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and assumed al-Qaida had wreaked terrible vengeance. He listened to anchors and military experts and assumed the facts of Sept. 11, 2001, were as stated on the screen.

It was a year before David Ray Griffin, an eminent liberal theologian and philosopher, began his stroll down the path of disbelief. He wondered why Bush listened to a child's story while the nation was attacked and how Osama bin Laden, America's Public Enemy No. 1, escaped in the mountains of Tora Bora.

He wondered why 110-story towers crashed and military jets failed to intercept even one airliner. He read the 9/11 Commission report with a swell of anger. Contradictions were ignored and no military or civilian official was reprimanded, much less cashiered.

"To me, the report read as a cartoon," Griffin said. "It's a much greater stretch to accept the official conspiracy story than to consider the alternatives."

Such as?

"There was massive complicity in this attack by U.S. government operatives."

If that feels like a skip off the cliff of established reality, more Americans are in free fall than you might guess. There are few more startling measures of American distrust of leaders than the extent of belief that the Bush administration had a hand in the attacks of Sept. 11 to spark an invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq.

36 percent suspicious

A recent Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll of 1,010 Americans found that 36 percent suspect the U.S. government promoted the attacks or intentionally sat on its hands. Sixteen percent believe explosives brought down the towers. Twelve percent believe a cruise missile hit the Pentagon.

Distrust percolates more strongly near Ground Zero. A Zogby International poll of New York City residents two years ago found 49.3 percent believed the government "consciously failed to act."

Establishment assessments of the believers tend toward the psychotherapeutic. Many academics, politicians and thinkers left, right and center say the conspiracy theories are a case of one plus one equals five. It's a piling up of improbabilities.

Thomas Eager, a professor of materials science at MIT, has studied the collapse of the twin towers. "At first, I thought it was amazing that the buildings would come down in their own footprints," Eager says. "Then I realized that it wasn't that amazing — it's the only way a building that weighs a million tons and is 95 percent air can come down."

But the chatter out there is loud enough for the National Institute of Standards and Technology to post a Web "fact sheet" poking holes in the conspiracy theories and defending its report on the towers.

Motley crew

The loose agglomeration known as the "9/11 Truth Movement" has stopped looking for truth from the government. A cacophonous and free-range a bunch of conspiracists, they produce hip-hop inflected documentaries and scholarly conferences. The Web is their mother lode. Every citizen is a researcher.

Did you see that the CIA met with bin Laden in a hospital room in Dubai? Check out this Pakistani site; there are really weird doings in Baluchistan ...

Peter Knight, senior lecturer in American studies at the University of Manchester and editor of the 2002 book "Conspiracy Nation: The Politics of Paranoia in Postwar America," called the movement "a strange beast, an amalgam of elements. You've got the anti-Bush, anti-Iraq war crowd — you know, if they lied about the war, maybe they lied about 9/11. Another part is people merely interested in the anomalies, with no preconceived political agenda.

"Then you have the more traditional right-wing conspiracy part of the continuum that believes a vast cabal has taken over the United States, the mega-conspiracy of the right's new world order. To them, all of these things are connected. Each group inserts 9/11 into its pre-existing conspiracy model."

The academic wing is led by Griffin, who founded the Center for a Postmodern World at Claremont University; James Fetzer, a tenured philosopher at the University of Minnesota; and Daniel Orr, retired chairman of the economics department at the University of Illinois.

Professor suspended

The movement's de facto minister of engineering is Steven Jones, a tenured physics professor at Brigham Young University who has studied vectors and velocities and tested explosives and concluded that the collapse of the twin towers is best explained as controlled demolition, sped by a thousand pounds of high-grade thermite.

Jones has been placed on paid leave while the Mormon-church-owned school investigates his claims, it was announced Friday.

The physicist published his views two weeks ago in the book "9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out."

Former Reagan aide Barbara Honegger is a senior military-affairs journalist at the Naval Postgraduate School in California. She's convinced, based on her freelance research, that a bomb went off about six minutes before an airplane hit the Pentagon — or didn't hit it, as some believe the case may be.

Then there's Morgan O. Reynolds, appointed by George W. Bush as chief economist at the Labor Department. He left in 2002 and doesn't think much of his former boss.

"Who did it? Elements of our government and M-16 and the Mossad. The government's case is a laugh-out-loud proposition. They used patsies and lies and subterfuge and there's no way that Bush and Cheney could have invaded Iraq without the help of 9/11," Reynolds asserts.

They are cantankerous and sometimes distrust each other — who knows where the double agents lurk? But unreasonable questions resonate with the reasonable. Colleen Kelly's brother, a salesman, had breakfast at the Windows on the World restaurant on Sept. 11. After he died she founded September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows to oppose the Iraq war. She lives in the Bronx and gives a gingerly embrace to the conspiracy crowd.

"Sometimes I listen to them and I think that's sooooo outlandish and bizarre," she says. "But that day had such disastrous geopolitical consequences. If David Ray Griffin asks uncomfortable questions and points out painful discrepancies, good for him."

Griffin's book, "The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11," sold more than 100,000 copies and became a movement founding stone. Last year he traveled through New England, giving speeches. One evening in West Hartford, Conn., 400 mostly middle-aged and upper-middle-class doctors and lawyers, teachers and social workers sat waiting.

Griffin took the podium and laid down his ideas with calm and cool. He concluded:

"It is already possible to know beyond a reasonable doubt one very important thing: The destruction of the World Trade Center was an inside job, orchestrated by domestic terrorists. The welfare of our republic and perhaps even the survival of our civilization depend on getting the truth about 9/11 exposed."

The audience rose and applauded for more than a minute.

No patience

Chip Berlet, senior analyst at Political Research Associates, a Boston-based left-leaning think tank, is no fan of the 9/11 Commission. He believes a serious investigation should have led to indictments and the firing of incompetent generals and civilian officials.

But he has no patience with the conspiracy theorists.

"They don't do their homework; it's a kind of charlatanism," says Berlet. "They say there's no debris on the lawn in front of the Pentagon, but they base their analysis on a photo on the Internet. That's like analyzing an impressionist painting by looking at a postcard.

"I love 'The X-Files' but I don't base my research on it. My vision of hell is having to review these [conspiracy] books over and over again."

In the days after Sept. 11, experts claimed temperatures reached 2,000 degrees on the upper floors. Others claimed steel melted. Nope. What happened, says Eager, the MIT materials-science professor, is that jet fuel sloshed around and beams got rubbery.

"It's not too much to think that you could have some regions at 900 degrees and others at 1,200 degrees, and that will distort the beams."

The truth movement doesn't really care for Eager. A Web site casts a fisheye of suspicion at the professor and his colleagues. "Did the MIT have prior knowledge?" notes one chat room. "This is for sure another speculative topic ... "

Professsor Jones' suspension was reported Friday by The Associated Press. Peter Knight was quoted by McClatchy Newspapers.

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#1. To: Dakmar (#0)

who was the head of the WAR COLLEGE that said Israel was behind 911?

i think it is a utube

Itistoolate  posted on  2010-07-19   22:31:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Dakmar (#0)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-19   23:54:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Itistoolate (#1)

who was the head of the WAR COLLEGE that said Israel was behind 911?

i think it is a utube

I looked into that a week or so ago. Other than his assesment of alledged opinion at the war college, he gave no specifics. I personnaly believe that the Izzies had a hand in it and Abramoff, a don in the Russian (Jewish) mafia, knows something. He came to own some gambling boats in Florida under strange circumstances---the former owner was found slumped over the steering wheel in his car with a hole behind his ear. Mohammed Atta was spotted on one of his boats shortly before 911. The same Abramoff, who, with the aid of some congress critters, was bilking Indian casinos and sending the profits to the settler movement in Israel. This is the kind of Jew that our senators chum around with. Wasn't it a New Jersey Governor who found himself with an Israeli boy friend? Had him on the payroll and put him in charge of the states security.Like the Israeli securiy firm at the airports on 911, the dancing Israelis, Odigo---the list goes on......

Rube Goldberg  posted on  2010-07-20   0:00:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: All (#3)

The art students

Rube Goldberg  posted on  2010-07-20   0:03:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Eric Stratton, Dakmar (#2)

Chip Berlet, senior analyst at Political Research Associates, a Boston-based left-leaning think tank

Berlet worked/works for the SPLC, for years. They have "training" contracts issued by the Dept. of Justice. They are automatically trotted out by the media to explain all the government-sponsored terror attacks.

ratcat  posted on  2010-07-20   1:08:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Dakmar (#0)

the Bush administration had a hand in the attacks of Sept. 11 to spark an invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq.

To be more precise, the Israeli duals in the Bush administration had a hand in the attacks of Sept 11 to spark an invasion of of Afghanistan and Iraq.

As a patriotic American Bush would not start wars against countries which posed no threat to Americans, especially wars that cannot be credibly explained. Likely, Bush took the initiative when Organized Jewry "guaranteed" him not only continuation in office but re-election if he launched wars against Israel's enemies.

Israel had to have Saddam taken out to stop his funding of one-way human bombers who were trying to get lands stolen by Jewish terrorists to form their illegal state.

Tatarewicz  posted on  2010-07-20   5:10:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: ratcat (#5)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-20   7:08:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Rube Goldberg (#3)

Itistoolate  posted on  2010-07-20   7:47:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Itistoolate (#8)

Where's the beef?

Rube Goldberg  posted on  2010-07-20   10:53:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Dakmar (#0) (Edited)

In the days after Sept. 11, experts claimed temperatures reached 2,000 degrees on the upper floors. Others claimed steel melted. Nope. What happened, says Eager, the MIT materials-science professor, is that jet fuel sloshed around and beams got rubbery.

Rubbery "pancakes" -- almost funny. Isn't it amazing how welders can run a torch full blast in direct contact with a steel beam for hours at a time without turning them rubbery or even having to spray them down with water?

"It's not too much to think that you could have some regions at 900 degrees and others at 1,200 degrees, and that will distort the beams."

Fire Weakens Steel but not Woman Waving in WTC North Tower
http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=3151MqXu52s

views 175,211

ebasebiz | February 01, 2008

Edna Cintron stood waving for rescue in the North Tower plane shaped hole for at least 20 minutes.

Isn't it logical Edna should have roasted if there was that much heat to weaken steel?

Her picture is in the NIST reports, waving to us that their fairy-tale of thousand-degree heat from jet fuel that allegedly weakened the WTC steel to cause collapse is a lie.

_______

The Fraud Of 911
A Firefighter Looks At Premeditated Murder At WTC

By Douglas Herman 3-16-6

Even more damaging, to the official government version, a team of brave New York firemen ascended to the impacted floors of the World Trade tower. Their exact words when seeing the fire were: "We should be able to knock it down with two lines." ( The Memory Hole - Excerpts From Firefighters' WTC Tape on 9/11)

Two hoses. A half dozen men altogether, to put out the fire.

But, imagine, with the fires in the World Trade Towers out, a REAL investigation would have occurred. There would have been no need to attack Iraq. The terrorists would have been exposed much closer to home.

Instead the radios used by the [my note: unroasted] firefighters on the 70th floor were likely monitored, by the perpetrators, and out of fear of being found out, the towers were hastily brought down. [my note: collapse=bigger insurance payoff for Silverstein]

Despite all physical impossibility, seven stout steel skyscrapers were destroyed that day. Three of the skyscrapers allegedly collapsed due to a firestorm that quickly burnt itself out and then smoldered. Indeed, almost miraculously, The Woman At The Edge Of The Abyss stood on steel that MIT professors said should have been red hot. How then could the tower have collapsed if the steel had cooled?

Recently I completed a firefighter course of classroom and field tests. A fire instructor mentioned the word Conduction. Simply, conduction is a scientific law that some metals conduct heat better than others. An iron rod or steel beam or girder will conduct heat throughout its entire length before melting. Like your barbecue grill will maintain its integrity although subject to repeated intense heat. [end excerpt]

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-21   15:38:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: GreyLmist (#10)

Rubbery "pancakes" -- almost funny

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought so. I thought the absence of elasticity was the problem, what with structural beams sheared through in straight lines.

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-21   19:56:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Dakmar (#11)

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought so. I thought the absence of elasticity was the problem, what with structural beams sheared through in straight lines.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought so too. :) When they push the rubbery, elastic line, they seem oblivious to the snap-back effect that air swirling around could have on the metal.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-21   20:43:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Dakmar (#11)

Me: Isn't it amazing how welders can run a torch full blast in direct contact with a steel beam for hours at a time without turning them rubbery or even having to spray them down with water?

Here's a blow torch demonstration I think is interesting:

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-21   21:31:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Dakmar (#0)

Are you in teenage-wasteland?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   21:35:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: buckeroo (#14)

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-24   2:40:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: buckeroo, AGAviator (#14) (Edited)

P.S. Your thread was closed before I posted a response to this:

#1190. To: GreyLmist (#1176)

The title of this topic is: 9/11 demolition theory challenged. The info accesible through Post #982 refutes claims like Mark Loizeaux's

That isn't the author of the article of this thread.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo posted on 2010-07-23 21:14:55 ET [Locked] Trace Private Reply

Reply: I know Loizeaux wasn't the author of the article. He was part of AGA's list (#9) that you quoted in a post to him (#1137 You To: AGAviator #1096) . The title of the thread was mentioned in my post to you to bring the topic back to the subject of CD and Loizeaux's statement about it at #9 in AGA's list, the premise of which was already debunked with an alert to that fact at Post #982 and again at Post #1109.

Just wanted to clarify that for you.

______________________

Replying to AGAviator @ Post #857 of the 9/11 demolition theory challenged:

What satelite phones with noise filters? I don't understand your next question about sotto voce. There were places in the alleged phone call recordings without anyone speaking and no engine-noise heard. And the Right Here link you posted to me is the very same NTSB pdf footnote link I posted to you from your Wikipedia page reference for Flight 77 that had nothing in it at all about 40 hours and 11 flights prior to 9/11 on the FDR.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-24   5:00:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: GreyLmist, buckeroo (#16) (Edited)

There were places in the alleged phone call recordings without anyone speaking and no engine-noise heard

Here's a Flight 11 recorded call including Betty Ong, going on for 8 minutes.

I hear engine noise in the background. How about you?

As far as nit picking over minutiae, the issues have always been whether (A) Any actual tangible forensic evidence contradicting CT's exists, and (B) Whether verifiable evidence supporting CT's exists, not arm waving generalizations and selective editings of evidence used elsewhere.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   7:31:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: GreyLmist (#15)

That was phunney.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   14:27:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: GreyLmist, christine (#16)

P.S. Your thread was closed before I posted a response to this

It brings to tears to my eyes since several REAL attempts to persuade and convince a pile of rabble rousers, HELL bent on pushing a conspiracy agenda killed the thread. That thread could have gone stellar here at 4um bringing the truth about some of the silly conspiracy plots.

I shall renew the effort, too.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   14:41:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: buckeroo (#19) (Edited)

It brings to tears to my eyes since several REAL attempts to persuade and convince a pile of rabble rousers, HELL bent on pushing a conspiracy agenda killed the thread

The tactics used certainly confirm the premise of my sig line. 911 whodunits are quite useless diversions of energy from more productive pursuits. Which is why there is no serious attempt to suppress them.

If you look at the thread from its beginning, once evidence started to pour in rebutting the 8 year old axioms of the CT's, the name calling, accusations of government agency, gaysex banter, and off topic remarks started coming in.

The MO is clear: Trash anything you can't prevail in. And when you get your remarks repaid in kind, start complaining about the replies, but not what you said to provoke them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   14:54:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: AGAviator (#20)

The tactics used certainly confirm the premise of my sig line. 911 whodunits are quite useless diversions of energy from more productive pursuits. Which is why there is no serious attempt to suppress them.

Time after time, I saw where you were continuously ridiculed for lack of knowledge and capability to understand some "suspicion" based upon anyone but an expert about the ideas presented.

Man, do you have patience with these folks! I somewhat enjoy the experience .. as it allows me to see how some folks see the world around themselves as they have wrapped upped into their own shells of incredible capability unwilling to confront their own personal failures in life. They couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag as they hey no skills other than believing in a myth ... kinda like the Mother Goose Nursery Rhymes... clamming up to just spew their own orgasmic attempt at a wild, doing nothing other than proving they have NO FACTS, NO DATA and NO TRUTH .... other than peer supported conspiracy theories.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   15:13:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: AGAviator (#20)

If you look at the thread from its beginning, once evidence started to pour in rebutting the 8 year old axioms of the CT's, the name calling, accusations of government agency, gaysex banter, and off topic remarks started coming in. Ohm

Oh man .. you stood up to piles of disinformation, character assassination and lies and mere conjecture based on innuendo. You are an excellent poster, AG.

Glad you decided to come back to 4um! Bringing evidence and hard science is no easy issue with some of these folks.... they have their minds made up based upon their own failures magnifying the rest of the world.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   15:26:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: buckeroo (#22)

You guys oughta get a room.

There is no long form.

randge  posted on  2010-07-24   15:28:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: randge (#23)

You guys oughta get a room.

I already have a view of the issues. Why should I duck my head in the sand akin to some around 4um regarding these conspiracy theories?

Proof or, at least, substantial evidence deserves some scrutiny doesn't it? But as you know for yourself... it is much easier to hide behind a "conspiracy" as opposed to producing FACTS. And there are no FACTS, no evidence or even a witness that can support the ideas of conspiracy zealots.

If there were, you would have read about it by now.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   16:09:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: GreyLmist (#16)

Just wanted to clarify that [Loizeaux].

Thanks. But as AG has pointed out in the past the Loizeaux family (CDI) take weeks and months to prepare buildings for implosion. They even use minor demolition charges to prove out the CD concepts of the plans prior to actual demolition.

If you review all the pictures and videos of the WTC, there was no "implosion"; it was the opposite ... as there appears to be explosions as the glass and outer structures fall away from the top down... not the bottom up.

So let me know why you want to clarify anything, here. To me, the WTC twin tower buildings toppled because of stress weakening at the 81st and 95th floors. Those two floors were where the airplane crashes occurred.... not because of demolitions.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   16:18:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: randge, buckeroo (#23) (Edited)

To: buckeroo

You guys oughta get a room

Another standard off-topic fagbait circlejerk Half Truther reply when incapable of commenting on issues.

Then you snivel and cry when replied to in like coin to exchanges you yourselves start.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   16:39:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: AGAviator (#26)

Hit a nerve little man??

There is no long form.

randge  posted on  2010-07-24   17:20:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: randge, christine (#27)

To: AGAviator

Hit a nerve little man??

Not at all.

Just noting for the record who starts the stink bombs to disrupt discussions they can't prevail with facts and reason.

For myself, I don't care whether the thread takes the high road or the low road. I'll kick your pansy a$$ in either.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   17:33:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: buckeroo, GreyLmist (#19)

P.S. Your thread was closed before I posted a response to this

It brings to tears to my eyes

Yes buckie, you cried like a little girl when nobody wanted to buy the BS you were selling, and instead, people posted facts and evidence which tore your little fairie tale to shreads.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-24   17:34:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#29)

people posted facts and evidence

Which as usual, you cannot explicitly cite, but only assert exists some place, some where.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   17:41:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, abraxas, critter, all (#30)

people posted facts and evidence

Which as usual, you cannot explicitly cite, but only assert exists some place, some where.

Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how 'sensitive they are to criticism.'

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   17:44:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: FormerLurker (#29)

Yes buckie, you cried like a little girl when nobody wanted to buy the BS you were selling, and instead, people posted facts and evidence which tore your little fairie tale to shreads.

Oh, did the widdle buckywoo cwy? Maybe he should go running home to his mama and tell her the big kids on the internet are beating the crap out of him for lying.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-24   17:47:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: AGAviator (#28)

Relax, Chief. Every time I see you on here, you're about to have a stroke.

Do something simple for us and put an Arab on a plane on 9-11. Haven't seen anyone do that yet.

There is no long form.

randge  posted on  2010-07-24   17:50:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: AGAviator (#30)

Which as usual, you cannot explicitly cite, but only assert exists some place, some where.

I posted evidence that Hanjour was incapable of piloting Flight 77, amongst other facts which indicate the official 9/11 legend is full of impossible events and tales.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-24   17:51:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: AGAviator (#30)

I don't understand FL, anymore. I have regarded his posts in the past as good thinking and capability for someone that really can think with their own wits. He has gone wrong... not capable of distinguishing fact from fiction. I just don't understand how a once credible poster with excellent ideas has become such an incredible nit-wit.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   17:51:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: James Deffenbach (#32)

Oh, did the widdle buckywoo cwy?

Yes, and she has a very dirty little mouth when she gets upset.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-24   17:52:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: buckeroo (#35)

Just because you refuse to accept the facts doesn't mean those facts are not facts, it just means you're too caught up in your own beliefs to accept those facts, no matter how much proof and evidence is provided.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-24   17:54:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: buckeroo (#35)

And BTW buck, I've NEVER believed the official BS stories concerning 9/11, well, at least as of 9/12/2001 or so...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-24   17:55:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#31) (Edited)

chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated

You phony $hiteater.

You cannot even abide by the points of discussion you yourself post. Six insults in 14 hours just to buck. That I can quickly observe. There are unquestionably more to me.

#17. To: James Deffenbach, FormerLurker, AGBloviator, AGAviator, Nostradumbass, buckeroo, abraxas, wudidiz, all (#14)
... Not a bit surprised that they haven't made any appearance on this one. Guess their handlers don't know what to tell them.
It's a punt. If you recall on the other thread that AGBloviator made a big point about Top Gun Hanjour getting a Commercial Certificate - over and over again as a matter of fact, as did Nostradumbass
Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-23 2:13:09 ET

#18. To: abraxas, FormerLurker, AGAviator, buckaroo, wudidiz (#15)
Guess this one is just too full of facts for AGABLOWviator and his trusty sidekick to discuss.
I do believe he is factophobic. When confronted with facts which he cannot twist and misrepresent his response is to take a powder. Maybe he has a shiny nose?
Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-23 2:16:16 ET

#1124. To: buckeroo (#1122)
....
Well, I don't have any more time to play with you now. Why don't you play with yourself?
Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-23 15:05:19 ET

#1160. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, James Deffenbach, all (#1157)
Are you REALLY that stupid buck?
Is that a rhetorical question?
Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-23 16:34:12 ET

#1162. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, James Deffenbach, abraxas, AGBloviator, AGAgitator, AGAviator, all (#1159)
a point you and AGBloviator
Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-23 16:49:06 ET

#1163. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, all (#1161)
Uh, buck?
Earth to buck!
Earth to buck!
Do you read me buck?
Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-23 16:55:38 ET

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   17:55:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: randge (#33) (Edited)

Put an Arab on a plane on 9-11.

"[The hijackers] were sitting in 2A and 2B"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   17:57:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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