4um: Rand Paul, Unions, Badly Mistaken

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Title: Rand Paul, Unions, Badly Mistaken
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Published: Jun 20, 2013
Author: Cynicom
Post Date: 2013-06-20 17:38:23 by Lod
Keywords: None
Views: 458
Comments: 25

On internet, Rand runs a forum that is virulent anti BIG LABOR...They are the cause of all of our problems in this country. Big labor is to blame for the endless wars, the huge national debt and the yearly budget deficit.
In his diatribe he neglects to mention that unions now represent less than ten per cent of American workers. Further, passes over the fact that most of the vile BIG LABOR UNIONS have nothing to do with LABOR.
Unions are now mostly government workers of all stripes and professional associations, such as teachers, college professors etc etc.
In my days as a child Lod, men were shot and killed because they wanted fair pay for their sweat and strong backs. Nobody was arrested, no one went to jail. The day unions are outlawed will be the day we all accept the yoke and chains. One has only to read about what happened in Russia a hundred years ago.
We all despise unions, but it is not for me or the government to deny a LABORING MAN TO HAVE A VOICE.
Walmart is the biggest human abuser on record. Six members of the Walton family have more wealth than the bottom 33 per cent of Americans in aggregate. They despise unions and use the government and taxpayers to subsidize their gathering of wealth. Their workers are so poor that the rest of us have to pay their medical bills, subsidize their housing, on and on.
Having been born, raised, and lived in the laboring lower class all my life, I have little truck with politicians that set their own pay, their own benefits and retirement, pound the podium, and rail about the union worker that have destroyed America.
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Cyni gets it.
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#1. To: Lod (#0) (Edited)
On internet, Rand runs a forum that is virulent anti BIG LABOR...They are the cause of all of our problems in this country. Big labor is to blame for the endless wars, the huge national debt and the yearly budget deficit.

While Rand Paul may be anti-union, at no time has Rand Paul stated that unions "are the cause of all of our problems in this country." At no time has Rand Paul stated that big labor "is to blame for the endless wars, the huge national debt and the yearly budget deficit." Those two statements are easy verifiable lies.
If I am wrong then it should be easy for Cyni-commie to produce the evidence that Rand Paul said these things.
Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over and break your window - unknown

I WITHDRAW MY CONSENT!
Any perceived compliance with unconstitutional “laws” or orders put forth by government employees is NOT recognition of their authority; it is simply the result of carefully calculated submission to an entity exhibiting superior firepower.
F.A. Hayek Fan posted on 2013-06-20 18:09:05 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#2. To: Lod, Cyni peek a boo (#0)
Many young men and women that are trying to raise families today enter the war industry because so many jobs have been sent overseas.
Strange times are these in which we live when old and young are taught in falsehood’s school. And the one man who dares to tell the truth is called at once a lunatic and fool.
– Plato (429-347 BC)
noone222 posted on 2013-06-20 18:54:56 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#3. To: noone222 (#2)
because so many jobs have been sent overseas.

Because unions demanded such unreasonable contracts. Labor unions priced out American workers.

scrapper2 posted on 2013-06-20 19:35:56 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#4. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#1)
While Rand Paul may be anti-union, at no time has Rand Paul stated that unions "are the cause of all of our problems in this country." At no time has Rand Paul stated that big labor "is to blame for the endless wars, the huge national debt and the yearly budget deficit." Those two statements are easy verifiable lies.

Well done!

scrapper2 posted on 2013-06-20 19:36:50 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#5. To: scrapper2 (#3)
Labor unions priced out American workers.

No.
NAFTA, GATT, and other trade agreements made that HUGE sucking-sound that Perot warned would happen.
That, and the 35% corporate tax rate that has everyone going off-shore.
“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken
Lod posted on 2013-06-20 19:49:05 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#6. To: Lod (#5)
No.
NAFTA, GATT, and other trade agreements made that HUGE sucking-sound that Perot warned would happen.
That, and the 35% corporate tax rate that has everyone going off-shore.

Then why didn't non-unionized manufacturing jobs suffer the same fate as unionized jobs?
freebeacon.com/unions-rally-behind-amnesty
The Heritage Foundation found that nearly 80 percent of union manufacturing jobs vanished between 1975 and 2010, while nonunion manufacturing held steady at 11.8 million workers.

scrapper2 posted on 2013-06-20 19:56:14 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#7. To: scrapper2 (#6)
Because the union jobs were in heavy manufacturing.
Not light-weight production.
“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken
Lod posted on 2013-06-20 20:11:29 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#8. To: scrapper2 (#6)
When people work for a wage that doesn't amount to enough to pay their bills and end up on food stamps, don't have health care, and ultimately not much of a life it makes unions necessary. Labor and management have been at each other's throat forever.
Slave labor (or a super low wage scale) is available in many countries where a union wouldn't be allowed, which doesn't mean that people whether in a union or not have priced themselves out of the market. Americans should develop their own economy and industry to suit the American way of life. Tariffs on imports would slow down consumption of slave labor goods.
The thought that we have to lower our standard of living in order to facilitate an economy is pure bullshit. We have over 300 million people in this country and did just fine without Chinese and / or Japanese imports (among many others).
I know we're supposed to believe that we're interdependent and that we need Chinese crap - that's another (globalist) fairytale.
Strange times are these in which we live when old and young are taught in falsehood’s school. And the one man who dares to tell the truth is called at once a lunatic and fool.
– Plato (429-347 BC)
noone222 posted on 2013-06-20 20:14:13 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#9. To: Lod (#7)
Not light-weight production.

??? What's "light-weight" production?

scrapper2 posted on 2013-06-20 20:18:48 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#10. To: noone222, Lod (#8)
When people work for a wage that doesn't amount to enough to pay their bills and end up on food stamps, don't have health care, and ultimately not much of a life it makes unions necessary.

I think we're well past Dickinsonian times.
Unions served a need at the time. Not now. They do more harm than good.
These days jobs are opening up for non-unionized labor. On average non-unionized salaries are just 7% less than unionized salaries. Not exactly food stamp level of salary.
Small businesses are doing most of the hiring now. Big businesses when faced with outrageous demands either off-shored the jobs or they mechanized the jobs. Unions did not anticipate what big corporations would/could do - unions screwed their own dues paying members by being so greedy and clueless.
articles.washingtonpost.c...-factory-jobs-labor-union
snip
It used to be that factory jobs paid substantially better than other jobs in the private sector, particularly for workers who didn’t go to college. That’s less true today, especially for non-union workers in the industry, who earn salaries that are about 7 percent lower than similar workers who are represented by a union.
By one measure — average hourly earnings — a typical manufacturing worker now earns less than a typical private-sector worker of any industry. Throughout the 30 years before the recession, the reverse was the case.
The changes have very likely allowed U.S. manufacturers to compete better in the global economy, and in the process, to start hiring again. Conservative economists say that as U.S. companies pay workers less, the firms’ costs go down and they become more attractive to investors.
Unions, contends James Sherk, a senior policy analyst at the conservative Heritage Foundation, have not been able to sell themselves as a “value proposition” in the manufacturing sector. “Unionized firms are not getting the investment,” he said. “Where investors see the opportunity is non-unionized firms.”...
Manufacturing is the industry that many Americans most associate with unions, but the industry has moved away from unionization for decades. There were 12.5 million non-union manufacturing workers in America last year, the same number there were in 1977. In contrast, there were 1.5 million employees represented by a union in 2012 — 6 million fewer than 1977.
By the end of last year, barely one in 10 U.S. manufacturing workers belonged to a union or was represented by one. Thirty years ago, that number was one in three...
It’s possible that recent manufacturing job creation was concentrated among smaller firms, which are less likely to be unionized.
Jared Bernstein, an economist at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities and a former Obama adviser, theorizes that big manufacturing firms, which are more likely to employ union workers, can afford to invest in new automated equipment to help fill their demand. That would leave smaller firms to do the bulk of the industry hiring.
“Robots don’t join unions,” Bernstein said, “and smaller shops aren’t buying robots.”

scrapper2 posted on 2013-06-20 20:32:05 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#11. To: scrapper2, noone222, Cynicom, all (#3)
because so many jobs have been sent overseas.
Because unions demanded such unreasonable contracts. Labor unions priced out American workers.

Actually, that is not necessarily so. Japan competed, and in some areas outcompeted, head to head, with protected American corporations and ate their lunch despite higher costs in shipping to market. Japan also has a higher average wage than the U.S..
While I am not a big defender of Big Labor since they have followed, at the managerial level, policies and supported actions that were contrary to the welfare of the nation and their workers - witness support of the Shamnesty bill which is opposed by a majority of the union membership.
However, a lot of American heavy industry has moved offshore because of tax incentives to do so. Lower, slave labor, wages is only part of it and not the dominant part as those closer to market incur less in the way of shipping costs. No, much of the offshoring of American heavy industry breaks down into two things:
Economic incentives, both positive and negative, created through U.S Feral Guffermint tax policy.
Relaxation of tariff barriers that had previously allowed U.S. industry to avoid heavy capital outlays to purchase new machinery.
Ultimately it is all economic but labor is only a small part of the picture.
What this comes down to is that the Globalists wanted to deindustrialize Amurka in order to put all of those uppity serfs in their place. With less heavy industry you lose a lot of primary heavy manufacturing and it ripples through the economy like a tidal wave tearing down the industrial infrastructure and beggaring the common working man/woman. Mostly men though as they have been the vast majority of workers in heavy industry. Most women are unwilling to put up with the conditions that exist on a production line - it is hot, sweaty, mind numbing work. However, with deindustrialization also goes all of those traditional blue collar, high paying, UNION jobs.
And the Union movement gained its foothold in America because of the greed and disregard for the welfare of their workers by large segments of the "Captains of Industry" - who were also on the government dole as far back as the 1860's. Only the Great Northern Railway was built without the largesse of the District of Corruption.
Perseverent Gardener"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
Original_Intent posted on 2013-06-20 22:31:32 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#12. To: Original_Intent (#11)
Japan also has a higher average wage than the U.S..

I'm not sure about salaries but Japanese workers for the longest time had a tacit understanding with companies there that they and their families would be taken care of for life, that they'd never be laid off. Japanese workers and management were in it together, not adversaries. When Japan built factories stateside, they hired mainly non-unionized workers except for NUMMI. Japan's factories are successful here with non unionized workers. Go figure. Detroit's unionized car manufacturers are floated by tax dollars because otherwise they'd go out of business. What's the main difference between success and turds floating in a sea of failure - UNIONS -I rest my case.

scrapper2 posted on 2013-06-20 23:53:31 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#13. To: scrapper2 (#10)
These days jobs are opening up for non-unionized labor.

In China. The stats in Amerika do not support your claim.
Strange times are these in which we live when old and young are taught in falsehood’s school. And the one man who dares to tell the truth is called at once a lunatic and fool.
– Plato (429-347 BC)
noone222 posted on 2013-06-21 6:22:09 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#14. To: scrapper2 (#3)
Because unions demanded such unreasonable contracts.

Check out the Davis Bacon ACT and the effect of the "prevailing wage" on the cost of govt. contracts.
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“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb
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Hmmmmm posted on 2013-06-21 8:21:37 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#15. To: noone222 (#13)
The stats in Amerika do not support your claim.

What stats?
You haven't provided any stats so far.
You've just made unsupported claims and presented them as facts.

scrapper2 posted on 2013-06-21 15:48:05 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#16. To: scrapper2 (#15)
You haven't provided any stats so far.
You've just made unsupported claims and presented them as facts.

If you need me to give you unemployment and record food stamp recipient stats ... you might turn on the radio, TV, or read a newspaper.
Strange times are these in which we live when old and young are taught in falsehood’s school. And the one man who dares to tell the truth is called at once a lunatic and fool.
– Plato (429-347 BC)
noone222 posted on 2013-06-21 18:43:29 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#17. To: scrapper2 (#3)
Because unions demanded such unreasonable contracts. Labor unions priced out American workers.

A living wage is only unreasonable if you want to compare it to Chinese, Mexican or Ethiopian slave labor.
Don't get me wrong I'm closer to slave labor than a living wage and don't like unions. I was forced into one once and didn't like it. That doesn't mean that the unions haven't provided protection from unscrupulous companies and their owners.
Strange times are these in which we live when old and young are taught in falsehood’s school. And the one man who dares to tell the truth is called at once a lunatic and fool.
– Plato (429-347 BC)
noone222 posted on 2013-06-21 18:53:31 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#18. To: scrapper2 (#12)
Japan also has a higher average wage than the U.S..
I'm not sure about salaries but Japanese workers for the longest time had a tacit understanding with companies there that they and their families would be taken care of for life, that they'd never be laid off. Japanese workers and management were in it together, not adversaries. When Japan built factories stateside, they hired mainly non-unionized workers except for NUMMI. Japan's factories are successful here with non unionized workers. Go figure. Detroit's unionized car manufacturers are floated by tax dollars because otherwise they'd go out of business. What's the main difference between success and turds floating in a sea of failure - UNIONS -I rest my case.

And my point, despite the level of corruption that currently exists in Unions, is that they arose, and gained power, because there was, at the time, a need. Where workers are treated well and paid a fair wage unions cannot gain a foothold. Where management is corrupt and unethical in their treatment of workers that makes for prime ground for the rise of unions. However, as you can see by the behavior of the upper management of most large unions they have become corrupt and are firmly under control.
Actually Detroit got into the mess it is in because they were turning out a crummy product - which was driven by bad management. The dance with the unions makes a great diversion but is not the "why" as to why American auto manufacturers went into the tank. The Japanese were producing, are producing, a better product at a fair price. Why buy a U.S. made car that is junk in 3 to 5 years when you can buy an import that, with proper preventative maintenance, will still be running well after 200,000 miles on the road?
The issues are a bit more complex, and yet ultimately simple, than "Management Good", "Unions Bad". The real answer lies in the intentional creation of a business hostile environment that makes profitability problematic - particularly for smaller companies. While I am no fan of bad management I am also well aware that businesses are not charities and are generally not supported (unless they bribe the "right" people) out of the public purse. Nor should they be - ever.
We do not have a capitalist free market economy. What we currently have is crony capitalism and a tax environment that penalizes business for being successful and rewards business with tax incentives to move production out of the country. Don't take my word for it. Do the research and satisfy yourself.
Perseverent Gardener"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha
Original_Intent posted on 2013-06-21 19:57:28 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#19. To: Original_Intent (#18)
The issues are a bit more complex, and yet ultimately simple, than "Management Good", "Unions Bad".

Whatever.
In your 4 paragraphs, is that the sum total?
Like I said - whatever.

scrapper2 posted on 2013-06-22 5:13:33 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#20. To: noone222 (#17) (Edited)
That doesn't mean that the unions haven't provided protection from unscrupulous companies and their owners.

Unions were great in Dickinsonian times.
The only part of the entire USA that has some pop these days is Silicon Valley high tech, which strangely enough has no unions - ( gubment pigs at the trough - Jerry's voters- are unionized but they don't add pop to the economy - they're parasites).

scrapper2 posted on 2013-06-22 5:19:03 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#21. To: noone222, Cynicom, F.A. Hayek Fan (#16)
Like I said previously, you have no stats to support your statements. All you have is Cynicom whispering in your ear about when he was a tyke so long ago walking 100,000 miles to war in his draftee uniform - uh huh....come out, come out where ever you are, cynicommunist...

scrapper2 posted on 2013-06-22 5:23:21 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#22. To: scrapper2 (#20)
Jerry's voters- are unionized but they don't add pop to the economy - they're parasites).

No doubt - no argument.
Strange times are these in which we live when old and young are taught in falsehood’s school. And the one man who dares to tell the truth is called at once a lunatic and fool.
– Plato (429-347 BC)
noone222 posted on 2013-06-22 5:29:14 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#23. To: Original_Intent (#18)
Actually Detroit got into the mess it is in because they were turning out a crummy product - which was driven by bad management. The dance with the unions makes a great diversion but is not the "why" as to why American auto manufacturers went into the tank. The Japanese were producing, are producing, a better product at a fair price. Why buy a U.S. made car that is junk in 3 to 5 years when you can buy an import that, with proper preventative maintenance, will still be running well after 200,000 miles on the road?

My dad stopped buying GM products and started buying Toyotas after GM CEO (DeLorean) stated that they were building their product to last the term of the loan.
I think what started out as a protection for workers wound up like our government where the two (supposed) opposing parties colluded to screw the wee people.
Strange times are these in which we live when old and young are taught in falsehood’s school. And the one man who dares to tell the truth is called at once a lunatic and fool.
– Plato (429-347 BC)
noone222 posted on 2013-06-22 5:34:47 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#24. To: scrapper2 (#21)
Are you ignorant of the unemployment numbers across the country ? The foreclosure numbers ? There is no recovery - oops, maybe you haven't heard that we're in a recession. Every major city in America with very few exceptions has very high unemployment that's under reported but 50 million Americans are reported to be receiving food stamps.
If you think I'm going to do research of the OBVIOUS to refute your completely bogus claim of increased employment you're wrong.
Strange times are these in which we live when old and young are taught in falsehood’s school. And the one man who dares to tell the truth is called at once a lunatic and fool.
– Plato (429-347 BC)
noone222 posted on 2013-06-22 5:46:24 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#25. To: noone222, Cynicom, F.A.Hayek Fan (#24)
If you think I'm going to do research of the OBVIOUS to refute your completely bogus claim of increased employment you're wrong.

Unionized versus non-unionized employment - which is growing and which is not?
You disputed the stats of the article links I provided.
If you have no stats except for Cynicommunist's whispers in your ear, so be it.

scrapper2 posted on 2013-06-22 5:52:43 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
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