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Title: Christian Resistance: "Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." -- Romans Chapter 13 Revisited
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Published: Apr 14, 2014
Author: Chuck Baldwin
Post Date: 2014-04-14 12:22:41 by James Deffenbach
Keywords: None
Views: 304
Comments: 31

Observe that Romans Chapter 13 clearly limits the authority of civil government by strictly defining its purpose: "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil . . . For he is the minister of God to thee for good . . . for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

Notice that civil government must not be a "terror to good works." It has no power or authority to terrorize good works or good people. God never gave it that authority. And any government that oversteps that divine boundary has no divine authority or protection. This is a basic principle of Natural Law (and all of America's legal documents--including the U.S. Constitution--are founded upon the God-ordained principles of Natural Law).

The apostle clearly states that civil government is a "minister of God to thee for good." It is a not a minister of God for evil. Civil magistrates have a divine duty to "execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." They have no authority to execute wrath upon him that doeth good. None. Zilch. Zero. And anyone who says they do is lying. So, even in the midst of telling Christians to submit to civil authority, Romans Chapter 13 limits the power and reach of civil authority.

Did Moses violate God's principle of submission to authority when he killed the Egyptian taskmaster in defense of his fellow Hebrew? Did Elijah violate God's principle of submission to authority when he openly challenged Ahab and Jezebel? Did David violate God's principle of submission to authority when he refused to surrender to Saul's troops? Did Daniel violate God's principle of submission to authority when he disobeyed the king's command to not pray audibly to God? Did the three Hebrew children violate God's principle of submission to authority when they refused to bow to the image of the state? Did John the Baptist violate God's principle of submission to authority when he publicly scolded King Herod for his infidelity? Did Simon Peter and the other Apostles violate God's principle of submission to authority when they refused to stop preaching on the streets of Jerusalem? Did Paul violate God's principle of submission to authority when he refused to obey those authorities who demanded that he abandon his missionary work? In fact, Paul spent almost as much time in jail as he did out of jail.

Remember that every apostle of Christ (except John) was killed by hostile civil authorities opposed to their endeavors. Christians throughout church history were imprisoned, tortured, or killed by civil authorities of all stripes for refusing to submit to their various laws and prohibitions. Did all of these Christian martyrs violate God's principle of submission to authority?

So, even the great prophets, apostles, and writers of the Bible (including the writer of Romans Chapter 13) understood that human authority--even civil authority--is limited.

Plus, Paul makes it clear that our submission to civil authority must be predicated on more than fear of governmental retaliation. Notice, he said, "Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake." Meaning, our obedience to civil authority is more than just "because they said so." It is also a matter of conscience. This means we must think and reason for ourselves regarding the justness and rightness of our government's laws. Obedience is not automatic or robotic. It is a result of both rational deliberation and moral approbation.

Therefore, there are times when civil authority may need to be resisted. Either governmental abuse of power or the violation of conscience (or both) could precipitate civil disobedience. Of course, how and when we decide to resist civil authority is an entirely separate issue. And I will reserve that discussion for another time.

Beyond that, we in the United States of America do not live under a monarchy. We have no king. There is no single governing official in this country. America's "supreme Law" does not rest with any man or any group of men. America's "supreme Law" does not rest with the President, the Congress, or even the Supreme Court. In America, the U.S. Constitution is the "supreme Law of the Land." Under our laws, every governing official publicly promises to submit to the Constitution of the United States. Do readers understand the significance of this distinction? I hope so.

This means that, in America, the "higher powers" are not the men who occupy elected office; they are the tenets and principles set forth in the U.S. Constitution. Under our laws and form of government, it is the duty of every citizen, including our elected officials, to obey the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, this is how Romans Chapter 13 reads to Americans:

"Let every soul be subject unto the [U.S. Constitution.] For there is no [Constitution] but of God: the [Constitution] that be [is] ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the [Constitution], resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For [the Constitution is] not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the [Constitution]? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For [the Constitution] is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for [the Constitution] beareth not the sword in vain: for [the Constitution] is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for [the Constitution is] God's minister, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

Dear Christian friend, the above is exactly the proper understanding of our responsibility to civil authority in these United States, according to the teaching of Romans Chapter 13.

Furthermore, Christians, above all people, should desire that their elected representatives submit to the Constitution, because it is constitutional government that has done more to protect Christian liberty than any other governing document ever devised by man. As I have noted before in this column, Biblical principles and Natural Law form the foundation of all three of America's founding documents: the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.

(See: www.chuckbald winlive.com/c2005/cbarchive_20050630.html )

As a result, Christians in America (for the most part) have not had to face the painful decision to "obey God rather than men" and defy their civil authorities.

The problem in America today is that we have allowed our political leaders to violate their oaths of office and to ignore--and blatantly disobey--the "supreme Law of the Land," the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, if we truly believe Romans Chapter 13, we will insist and demand that our civil magistrates submit to the U.S. Constitution.

Now, how many of us Christians are going to truly obey Romans Chapter 13?

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#1. To: All (#0)

960X471

Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.

Paul Craig Roberts

James Deffenbach  posted on  2014-04-14   12:38:26 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: James Deffenbach (#0)

Excellent - thanks!

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2014-04-14   12:54:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Lod (#2)

Thank you. Wouldn't it be great to have Chuck Baldwin and Andrew Napolitano as Prez and VP? I could vote for either of them for either job and think they would be the best you could get.

Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.

Paul Craig Roberts

James Deffenbach  posted on  2014-04-14   13:00:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: James Deffenbach (#3)

That would be a welcome 'night & day' difference for the country.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2014-04-14   13:10:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: James Deffenbach (#0) (Edited)

My tag line says it all. ;)

BTW, I have a book which is titled, "The Bush, Cheney, Clinton Crime Cult's Chaotic Crisis" by Donn de Grand Pre. If you would like a copy, it costs $30, plus shipping of $3.00 (Book Rate) I only have four copies.

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2014-04-14   16:48:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: BTP Holdings (#5)

Thank you for the offer. I am sure it is an interesting book but I doubt I will ever finish all the books I already have.

Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.

Paul Craig Roberts

James Deffenbach  posted on  2014-04-14   18:15:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: James Deffenbach (#0)

The alleged apostle Paul was a Jew trained at the feet of Gamaliel. Gamaliel was the highest regarded Rabbi of that era. Paul was a Roman-Jew, which is quite odd too.

Paul never walked with Christ and yet has written 80% of the New Testament. His conversion story is told two different ways. Another thing, Paul held the coats of the Jews that stoned Stephen to death. So, he's also an accomplice to murder.

How is it that Paul is the only "apostle" that writes about ignoring the laws of God (something other real apostles were asking too, yet demands Christians obey the laws of men. Not only obey the laws of men, but bad men, perverts, thieves and murderers ??? I suppose Paul would advise us to fund abortion since the authorities want us to.

I've had a personal problem with Paul for a long time though I put it on the back burner for awhile. Some say Paul lived and hung out with Nero. I don't know about this for certain but have heard it from others.

Maybe Paul sent himself to the gentiles because they're dumb enough to ignore all of his baggage.

"Resolve to serve no more,” he says, “and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.”

Étienne de La Boétie

noone222  posted on  2014-04-14   18:39:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: All (#0)

Chuck Baldwin has the best of intentions but there ain't no freaking constitution in a commercial jurisdiction. Also, the courts are commercial courts.

Until we dismember the FEDERAL RESERVE we are without a Constitution, without protected rights, and in denial of the facts that are in our faces every unconstitutional day.

"Resolve to serve no more,” he says, “and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.”

Étienne de La Boétie

noone222  posted on  2014-04-14   18:42:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: noone222 (#7)

I too have more than a few problems with Paul's stuff.

As far as his problem to which he often alluded, I'm guessing that he was either a sex-addict, or a perv...just my guess.

Weak eye-sight doesn't cut it here.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2014-04-14   18:58:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: 4UM, or anyone that will listen (#3)

Wouldn't it be great to have Chuck Baldwin and Andrew Napolitano as Prez and VP.

Any man wishing to hold the Office legitimately would have to inform the country that the FEDERAL RESERVE owns the corporation that acts as the U.S. government.

Both of those guys are always belly-aching about how ridiculously blatant the Constitutional violations committed by the U.S. government are, to no avail because there ain't no Constitution in a commercial zone. All law today is by agreement or contract, period.

"Resolve to serve no more,” he says, “and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.”

Étienne de La Boétie

noone222  posted on  2014-04-14   19:13:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: noone222, Jethro Tull (#10)

See Doug's post above...

To question is to value the ideal of truth more highly than the loyalties to nation, religion, race, or ideology.

christine  posted on  2014-04-14   19:41:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: christine (#11)

Stealing your money AND your Constitution.

"Resolve to serve no more,” he says, “and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.”

Étienne de La Boétie

noone222  posted on  2014-04-14   20:23:57 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: noone222 (#10)

Murdoch signs Napolitanos pay check and this week, Murdoch made the statement that Hillary as president would be fine with him.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-04-14   20:33:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Cynicom (#13)

Murdoch made the statement that Hillary as president would be fine with him.

Presidents are place holder puppets for the consumption of the dolts that "think" they elected somebody.

"Resolve to serve no more,” he says, “and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.”

Étienne de La Boétie

noone222  posted on  2014-04-14   20:38:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: christine, noone222, 4 (#11)

Both of those guys are always belly-aching about how ridiculously blatant the Constitutional violations committed by the U.S. government are, to no avail because there ain't no Constitution in a commercial zone. All law today is by agreement or contract, period.

We've been saying similar things about all the folks who wave the Constitution and point to specific violations by government goons. They/we all need to understand that this land we live on isn't a nation and it's so called ruling document is toilet paper. We need more Bundy ranch stand downs and less constitutional pontificators.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2014-04-15   13:24:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Jethro Tull (#15)

We need more Bundy ranch stand downs and less constitutional pontificators.

You're so right. And, I believe it's coming.

"Resolve to serve no more,” he says, “and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.”

Étienne de La Boétie

noone222  posted on  2014-04-15   14:33:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: noone222, christine, Jethro Tull, Cynicom, Lod, All (#12)

Stealing your money AND your Constitution.

 photo 001g.gif
“With the exception of Whites, the rule among the peoples of the world, whether residing in their homelands or settled in Western democracies, is ethnocentrism and moral particularism: they stick together and good means what is good for their ethnic group."
-Alex Kurtagic

X-15  posted on  2014-04-15   14:47:26 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: X-15 (#17)

Perfect!

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2014-04-15   15:01:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: X-15 (#17)

IRS Protectionism: New Licensing Scheme Challenged in Major Federal Lawsuit

The Truth Behind The Income Tax 1:56:13

Itistoolate  posted on  2014-04-15   15:12:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: X-15 (#17)

Man, laffin' my ass off!!

You know he wouldn't let you have a hit offa that either.

Know guns, know safety, know liberty. No guns, no safety, no liberty.

randge  posted on  2014-04-15   16:06:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: noone222 (#7)

Paul never walked with Christ and yet has written 80% of the New Testament.

While books written by those closest to Jesus, directly quoting Jesus, are omitted. The omitted texts are filled with compassion and spirituality, not laden with political procedures for followers to spend their lives on their knees worshiping church leaders and government.

Yet, people never question the "written word of God" one iota, never look to see how the books were chosen and never under any circumstance ask the most pertinent question: "Cui Bono?"

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne

abraxas  posted on  2014-04-15   16:15:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: noone222 (#7)

Some say Paul lived and hung out with Nero.

Nero fiddled while Rome burned, or so they say. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2014-04-15   17:17:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: randge, X-15 (#20)

Man, laffin' my ass off!!

Me, also. ROTFLOL!

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2014-04-15   17:19:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: BTP Holdings, randge, Dakmar (#23)

Obama be rollin' out his dronez 'n sheeit ifn' u don' pay up.......you creepy ass cracka's!!!

 photo 17248fb99c891de21.jpg

 photo 001g.gif
“With the exception of Whites, the rule among the peoples of the world, whether residing in their homelands or settled in Western democracies, is ethnocentrism and moral particularism: they stick together and good means what is good for their ethnic group."
-Alex Kurtagic

X-15  posted on  2014-04-15   17:51:38 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: X-15 (#17)

There is someone knocking at your door, dont answer it.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-04-15   17:56:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Cynicom (#25)

I went turkey hunting this morning (no luck), my 12-gauge Winchester shotgun is at hand.

 photo 001g.gif
“With the exception of Whites, the rule among the peoples of the world, whether residing in their homelands or settled in Western democracies, is ethnocentrism and moral particularism: they stick together and good means what is good for their ethnic group."
-Alex Kurtagic

X-15  posted on  2014-04-15   18:01:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: abraxas (#21)

never look to see how the books were chosen and never under any circumstance ask the most pertinent question: "Cui Bono?"

Ya gotta wonder don't ya ???

"Resolve to serve no more,” he says, “and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.”

Étienne de La Boétie

noone222  posted on  2014-04-17   8:08:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: James Deffenbach (#0)

The problem in America today is that we have allowed our political leaders to violate their oaths of office and to ignore--and blatantly disobey--the "supreme Law of the Land," the U.S. Constitution. Therefore, if we truly believe Romans Chapter 13, we will insist and demand that our civil magistrates submit to the U.S. Constitution.

Now, how many of us Christians are going to truly obey Romans Chapter 13?

"...Actually that which is called the "law of the land," is the law of the devil. The term is used in the U.S. Constitution, where men claim that their laws are the supreme law of the land (See U.S. Constitution, Article VI)..."

[remember the number of man is 666, and that number appears on the US Great Seal.]

"..Supreme Law of the Land

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Matthew 22:36-40). Do you know what that represents to a Christian? These two commands are the Supreme Law of the Land. If you believe that something else is the supreme law of the land for a Christian, someone has deceived you. It was a thief who drew you away from the true Supreme Law of the Land (see John 10:8)...."

Understanding Romans 13:1-7

http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/understanding.php

in America, the "higher powers" are not the men who occupy elected office; they are the tenets and principles set forth in the U.S. Constitution. Under our laws and form of government, it is the duty of every citizen, including our elected officials, to obey the U.S. Constitution.

"...Paul never says, "Obey Rome." He knows you cannot obey Rome and God. You cannot obey two masters.....

And when he said to them at Romans 13, "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers," he was referring to the higher powers within Christ's Kingdom, not the kingdoms of the world." http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/higherpowers.php

"....Now why didn't he say, "Obey Caesar and you have fulfilled the law"? Why didn't he recite Roman statutes? Why didn't he come right out and say, "Submit to the revised statutes of Rome"?

No, first he tells us to submit to the higher powers. Then he quotes the law of the higher powers, concluding that love is the fulfilling of the law. This is Kingdom of Heaven talk. It has nothing to do with secular statutes.

Cost of Citizenship

If you take the book of Acts and march all the way down through Revelation, theologians call this the "Church Age." This is where the government of God is being promoted. Now why would Paul, after being blinded by the light and then having his sight restored, go back to the ordinances of Rome? Yes, in a weak moment he tried to claim Roman citizenship, but he eventually works out his own salvation with fear and trembling. He comes to the conclusion that, "Our citizenship is in Heaven" (Philippians 3:20).

Paul writes to the called-out ones who have been raised up as Roman citizens. Now that Jesus has handed down the Government of God, they are given the choice to change their allegiance. And thousands gladly choose God's government and are baptized. But there is a cost for this new allegiance - persecution. Many members of this holy nation are mocked, scourged, imprisoned and stoned.

Paul himself, who wrote Romans, was persecuted for his citizenship. At one point, he was lowered in a basket down a wall and escaped from the hands of the governor (2 Corinthians 11:32-33). Ultimately, the Roman government beheaded him. With Paul being beaten, imprisoned and stoned for preaching the Kingdom of God, he was no friend to the powers of the world....."

Romans 13 Unlocked

http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/unlocked.php

All that ever came before me are robbers and thieves, but the sheep did not hear them. http://biblehub.com/john/10-8.htm / http://biblehub.com/kjv/john/10.htm

Cracking the Cult of the Constitution [great read. exposes it all. highly recommend reading and saving in case it goes down the memory hole.]

realitybloger.wordpress.c...-the-constitution-part-i/

realitybloger.wordpress.c...the-constitution-part-ii/

America wasn't founded on the CONstitution. It was founded on Christ and the spreading of the gospel: The Enduring Legacy of the First Landing http://www.wnd.com/2007/04/41327/ [Micah 4:1-2, http://biblehub.com/kjv/micah/4.htm, Psalm 2:6 ]

The CONstitution was just a way for the devil to get his foot in the door to transform the Kingdom of God into the Kingdom of the antiChrist. But what saith the scripture? But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. http://biblehub.com/matthew/15-13.htm

The CONstitution masqueraded as something good, even god-like, but was in fact was cunning and evil from its inception. Recall the serpent Gadsen flag of the Revolution: "Don't Tread on Me". But what saith the scripture? We would tread on serpents, biblehub.com/luke/10-19.htm , from Genesis 3:15! biblehub.com/genesis/3-15.htm

As Cornwallis said to George Washington, "A Holy War will now begin against America...."

"Why do the heathen rage [plot, conspire]...."

http://biblehub.com/kjv/psalms/2.htm

Now, how many of us Christians are going to truly obey Romans Chapter 13? serious question.

"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2014-04-17   11:07:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt, 4 (#28)

"Why do the heathen rage

Why do those opposed to the Constitution object to the politicos who are in opposition to it too?

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2014-04-17   16:02:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#28)

I agree with much of what you said but the politicians all take an oath to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution" against all enemies, foreign and domestic. And yet, most of them are the greatest enemies of the Constitution.

Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.

Paul Craig Roberts

James Deffenbach  posted on  2014-04-17   18:13:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#28)

hello there!

To question is to value the ideal of truth more highly than the loyalties to nation, religion, race, or ideology.

christine  posted on  2014-04-17   18:32:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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