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Title: What Did US Spy Satellites See in Ukraine?
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/2 ... spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/
Published: Jul 22, 2014
Author: Robert Parry
Post Date: 2014-07-22 08:26:36 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 263
Comments: 38

Exclusive: The U.S. media’s Ukraine bias has been obvious, siding with the Kiev regime and bashing ethnic Russian rebels and Russia’s President Putin. But now – with the scramble to blame Putin for the Malaysia Airlines shoot-down – the shoddy journalism has grown truly dangerous, says Robert Parry.

By Robert Parry

In the heat of the U.S. media’s latest war hysteria – rushing to pin blame for the crash of a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet on Russia’s President Vladimir Putin – there is the same absence of professional skepticism that has marked similar stampedes on Iraq, Syria and elsewhere – with key questions not being asked or answered.

The dog-not-barking question on the catastrophe over Ukraine is: what did the U.S. surveillance satellite imagery show? It’s hard to believe that – with the attention that U.S. intelligence has concentrated on eastern Ukraine for the past half year that the alleged trucking of several large Buk anti-aircraft missile systems from Russia to Ukraine and then back to Russia didn’t show up somewhere.

Russian-made Buk anti-missile battery. Russian-made Buk anti-missile battery. Yes, there are limitations to what U.S. spy satellites can see. But the Buk missiles are about 16 feet long and they are usually mounted on trucks or tanks. Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 also went down during the afternoon, not at night, meaning the missile battery was not concealed by darkness.

So why hasn’t this question of U.S. spy-in-the-sky photos – and what they reveal – been pressed by the major U.S. news media? How can the Washington Post run front-page stories, such as the one on Sunday with the definitive title “U.S. official: Russia gave systems,” without demanding from these U.S. officials details about what the U.S. satellite images disclose?

Instead, the Post’s Michael Birnbaum and Karen DeYoung wrote from Kiev: “The United States has confirmed that Russia supplied sophisticated missile launchers to separatists in eastern Ukraine and that attempts were made to move them back across the Russian border after the Thursday shoot-down of a Malaysian jetliner, a U.S. official said Saturday.

“‘We do believe they were trying to move back into Russia at least three Buk [missile launch] systems,’ the official said. U.S. intelligence was ‘starting to get indications … a little more than a week ago’ that the Russian launchers had been moved into Ukraine, said the official” whose identity was withheld by the Post so the official would discuss intelligence matters.

But catch the curious vagueness of the official’s wording: “we do believe”; “starting to get indications.” Are we supposed to believe – and perhaps more relevant, do the Washington Post writers actually believe – that the U.S. government with the world’s premier intelligence services can’t track three lumbering trucks each carrying large mid-range missiles?

What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.

The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said.

Instead of pressing for these kinds of details, the U.S. mainstream press has simply passed on the propaganda coming from the Ukrainian government and the U.S. State Department, including hyping the fact that the Buk system is “Russian-made,” a rather meaningless fact that gets endlessly repeated.

However, to use the “Russian-made” point to suggest that the Russians must have been involved in the shoot-down is misleading at best and clearly designed to influence ill-informed Americans. As the Post and other news outlets surely know, the Ukrainian military also operates Russian-made military systems, including Buk anti-aircraft batteries, so the manufacturing origin has no probative value here.

Relying on the Ukraine Regime

Much of the rest of the known case against Russia comes from claims made by the Ukrainian regime, which emerged from the unconstitutional coup d’etat against elected President Viktor Yanukovych on Feb. 22. His overthrow followed months of mass protests, but the actual coup was spearheaded by neo-Nazi militias that overran government buildings and forced Yanukovych’s officials to flee.

In recognition of the key role played by the neo-Nazis, who are ideological descendants of Ukrainian militias that collaborated with the Nazi SS in World War II, the new regime gave these far-right nationalists control of several ministries, including the office of national security which is under the command of longtime neo-Nazi activist Andriy Parubiy.[See Consortiumnews.com’s “Ukraine, Through the US Looking Glass.”]

It was this same Parubiy whom the Post writers turned to seeking more information condemning the eastern Ukrainian rebels and the Russians regarding the Malaysia Airlines catastrophe. Parubiy accused the rebels in the vicinity of the crash site of destroying evidence and conducting a cover-up, another theme that resonated through the MSM.

Without bothering to inform readers of Parubiy’s unsavory neo-Nazi background, the Post quoted him as a reliable witness declaring: “It will be hard to conduct a full investigation with some of the objects being taken away, but we will do our best.”

In contrast to Parubiy’s assurances, the Kiev regime actually has a terrible record of telling the truth or pursuing serious investigations of human rights crimes. Still left open are questions about the identity of snipers who on Feb. 20 fired on both police and protesters at the Maidan, touching off the violent escalation that led to Yanukovych’s ouster. Also, the Kiev regime has failed to ascertain the facts about the death-by-fire of scores of ethnic Russians in the Trade Union Building in Odessa on May 2. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Burning Ukraine’s Protesters Alive.”]

The Kiev regime also duped the New York Times (and apparently the U.S. State Department) when it disseminated photos that supposedly showed Russian military personnel inside Russia and then later inside Ukraine. After the State Department endorsed the “evidence,” the Times led its newspaper with this story on April 21, but it turned out that one of the key photos supposedly shot in Russia was actually taken in Ukraine, destroying the premise of the story. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “NYT Retracts Ukraine Photo Scoop.”]

But here we are yet again with the MSM relying on unverified claims being made by the Kiev regime about something as sensitive as whether Russia provided sophisticated anti-aircraft missiles – capable of shooting down high-flying civilian aircraft – to poorly trained eastern Ukrainian rebels.

This charge is so serious that it could propel the world into a second Cold War and conceivably – if there are more such miscalculations – into a nuclear confrontation. These moments call for the utmost in journalistic professionalism, especially skepticism toward propaganda from biased parties.

Yet, what Americans have seen again is the major U.S. news outlets, led by the Washington Post and the New York Times, publishing the most inflammatory of articles based largely on unreliable Ukrainian officials and on the U.S. State Department which was a principal instigator of the Ukraine crisis.

In the recent past, this sort of sloppy American journalism has led to mass slaughters in Iraq – and has contributed to near U.S. wars on Syria and Iran – but now the stakes are much higher. As much fun as it is to heap contempt on a variety of “designated villains,” such as Saddam Hussein, Bashar al-Assad, Ali Khamenei and now Vladimir Putin, this sort of recklessness is careening the world toward a very dangerous moment, conceivably its last.

Investigative reporter Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories for The Associated Press and Newsweek in the 1980s. You can buy his new book, America’s Stolen Narrative, either in print here or as an e-book (from Amazon and barnesandnoble.com). For a limited time, you also can order Robert Parry’s trilogy on the Bush Family and its connections to various right-wing operatives for only $34. The trilogy includes America’s Stolen Narrative. For details on this offer, click here.

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#1. To: Ada (#0)

Exclusive: The U.S. media’s Ukraine bias has been obvious, siding with the Kiev regime and bashing ethnic Russian rebels and Russia’s President Putin. But now – with the scramble to blame Putin for the Malaysia Airlines shoot-down – the shoddy journalism has grown truly dangerous, says Robert Parry.

Oh boo hoo...

Poor Pooty Poot, poor Mother Russia.

All angels if ever there were any.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-07-22   8:33:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Ada, 4 (#0)

What Did US Spy Satellites See in Ukraine?

Don't care, it's none of our business.

Life is what happens to you when you are making other plans.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2014-07-22   9:06:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Jethro Tull (#2)

Don't care, it's none of our business.

Now that I can agree with.

Let the Ukranians sort it out.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-07-22   9:17:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Cynicom, Jethro Tull, Lod (#3)

Let the Ukranians sort it out.

Before we kick started the off-colored revolution in Ukraine to bring in a pro-EU government, I wish we'd have let the Ukrainians sort it out. Before we kick started the colored revolutions in Georgia, Ukraine, and other eastern European "stans," I wish we'd have let them sort it out on their own. Before we bombed Serbia to make them stop defending their own land, I wish we'd have let them sort it out. Before we "kept the Soviets from starving" with grain shipments at the height of the Cold War, I wish we'd have let them sort it out on their own. Before we illegally funded Lend-Lease to the Soviets I wish we'd have let them sort it out. Before our bankers funded the communist overthrow and murder of the Czar and his family, I wish we'd have let them sort it out.

When will we finally, "let them sort it out?"

Deasy  posted on  2014-07-22   9:36:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Cynicom, Jethro Tull (#1)

Not my circus, not my monkeys.

"Have Brain, Will Travel

Turtle  posted on  2014-07-22   10:01:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Turtle (#5)

I fear too many of our friends are being misled.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-07-22   10:39:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Deasy, Turtle, Cynicom, Lod, 4 (#4)

Before we kick started the off-colored revolution in Ukraine to bring in a pro-EU government, I wish we'd have let the Ukrainians sort it out. Before we kick started the colored revolutions in Georgia, Ukraine, and other eastern European "stans," I wish we'd have let them sort it out on their own. Before we bombed Serbia to make them stop defending their own land, I wish we'd have let them sort it out. Before we "kept the Soviets from starving" with grain shipments at the height of the Cold War, I wish we'd have let them sort it out on their own. Before we illegally funded Lend-Lease to the Soviets I wish we'd have let them sort it out. Before our bankers funded the communist overthrow and murder of the Czar and his family, I wish we'd have let them sort it out.

When will we finally, "let them sort it out?"

Amen brother.

Nothing to add to this statement.

Life is what happens to you when you are making other plans.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2014-07-22   10:57:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Jethro Tull (#7)

Nothing to add to this statement.

There most certainly is.

That is a pathetic view of world history that was not happenstance.

It borders on the asinine.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-07-22   11:02:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Cynicom (#8)

Which sentence is incorrect, besides my opinion that we should have let them sort it out?

Deasy  posted on  2014-07-22   11:10:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Cynicom, Jethro Tull, All (#3)

Don't care, it's none of our business. Now that I can agree with.

Let the Ukranians sort it out.

If we had left well enough alone none of this would be going on, but no, our government decided to finance the overthrow of the Ukrainian government, leading to open revolt and civil war in the Eastern part of the country.

We destabilzed an ally of Russia and inserted a pro-western government, one which is filled with neo-Nazis and other assorted fascists, many of whom are openly hostile to Russians and those of Russian ethnicity to a point they publically state that they plan on "exterminating all Russians".

So it's easy to say "let them sort it out on their own", but that's what we SHOULD have done, not what we are doing. We are responsibile for what is going on there due to the actions of our own government using 5 billion dollars of OUR tax money to finance the violent overthrow of the elected Ukraine government.

OUR government is committing acts of war against the Russian Federation, and now they are apparently behind this possible false flag operation to further rachet up the tensions and the rhetoric against Russia.

Our leaders are provoking and instigating a nuclear power to war. WE need to demand that our government stand down in order to avert what might well be the end of the human race.

If any of you have family, perhaps you might want to contemplate the end of all life on this planet, and ponder on whether or not you should try to stop it from happening while its still possible.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-07-22   12:28:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Cynicom, Jethro Tull (#8)

It borders on the asinine.

Oh come on now, don't hold back, Cyni! A mule is as close as you can get to half a donkey! But you still haven't identified my factual errors. I don't mind disagreeing with you at all. It's usually very informative.

Deasy  posted on  2014-07-23   0:36:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: FormerLurker (#10)

We destabilzed an ally of Russia and inserted a pro-western government, one which is filled with neo-Nazis and other assorted fascists, many of whom are openly hostile to Russians and those of Russian ethnicity to a point they publically state that they plan on "exterminating all Russians".

Isn't this a bit of an exaggeration? My sense is that there are people who still remember the Holodomor (starvation and ethnic cleansing of Ukraine and other steppe areas of Eastern Europe before WWII) under the Soviet apparatchiks. I hope you'll remember that in future remarks.

I believe that those are bygone days and would think that Americans would want to encourage rapprochement between Russians and Ukrainians where at all possible. I don't see that happening here, I see the reverse. But that doesn't make the pro-western government forming in the Ukraine fascist. In the chaos there have been fascists active but I don't think they have long term support from the US or the EU.

The problem is where there could have been coexistence and shared spheres of influence: EU/NATO/US on the western areas of Ukraine, Russian Federation on the Crimea and eastern areas of Ukraine, the west decided that forcing the issue would be just fine. Like it or not, this is hardly in the best interests of the Russian ethnics in the east or the strategic needs of the Russian Federation.

We can keep pushing on Russia harder and harder, but blow-back is going to be a bitch.

Deasy  posted on  2014-07-23   0:44:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: FormerLurker, 4 (#10)

We are responsibile for what is going on there due to the actions of our own government using 5 billion dollars of OUR tax money to finance the violent overthrow of the elected Ukraine government.

I'm sure your use of the word "we", as in "We are responsible...", isn't meant to be used collectively, because we had nothing to do with America's foreign policy. What is being done in "our" name isn't my problem, nor do I care whose flag flies over what parcel of land outside of this country.

Life is what happens to you when you are making other plans.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2014-07-23   4:24:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Jethro Tull (#13)

What is being done in "our" name isn't my problem, nor do I care whose flag flies over what parcel of land outside of this country.

I wonder what it will take to awaken the country from this coma ... unbelievable isn't it ?

"This place called earth is hell (though it could be heaven).” Those that haven't noticed are without a soul to be redeemed.

noone222

noone222  posted on  2014-07-23   7:43:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: noone222, Jethro Tull (#14)

The long years of pride in empire are going to take some intricate unwinding. I'm reminded of Alexander the Great and how he untied the Gordian Knot.

Deasy  posted on  2014-07-23   7:53:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Deasy (#12)

Isn't this a bit of an exaggeration?

Nope. You need to research Red Sector and Svoboda, and read up on Yulia Tymoshenko for instance.

Also, look up Ukraine SS and Stepan Bandera, who is seen as a hero by these fanatics.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-07-23   8:00:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: FormerLurker (#16)

Oh I find links to Zionism in the same Ukraine as you find the fascists. That doesn't mean that the US wants the fascists. We fought on the side that starved millions of Ukranians against the fascists so I can't imagine us propping them up now. If they happen to do a good deed and sow chaos they can always be rounded up and reeducated later.

I'm more apt to see the Zionists active in the region than fascists in the long run.

Deasy  posted on  2014-07-23   8:31:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Deasy (#17)

Red Sector and Svoboda has been given key positions in the junta Ukraine government, and the "newly elected" president is a rich ole billionaire placed there to serve western interests above those of Ukraine.

He has not only allowed but ordered massacres of civilians by artillery, tanks, and missile attack, so he's on the same page as the Nazis and fascists.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-07-23   8:44:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Deasy (#17)

False Flags Highlight Our Satanic Possession

henrymakow.com/

Itistoolate  posted on  2014-07-23   8:48:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Deasy (#17)

That doesn't mean that the US wants the fascists. We fought on the side that starved millions of Ukranians against the fascists so I can't imagine us propping them up now.

From what I've read concerning the history of the Third Reich, granddaddy Bush (Preston Bush) helped finance Hitler's buildup to war and continued to financially support him even AFTER we declared war on Germany, and he wasn't the only one doing it.

How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-07-23   8:49:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: FormerLurker (#20)

I know about Prescott Bush. He wasn't in the government then. What were you trying to say?

Deasy  posted on  2014-07-23   8:51:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Deasy (#21)

Wasn't in the ELECTED government, but was in that group of oligarchs who pulled the strings of the government.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-07-23   8:52:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: FormerLurker (#18)

[Ukraine's President] has not only allowed but ordered massacres of civilians by artillery, tanks, and missile attack, so he's on the same page as the Nazis and fascists.

That doesn't make him a fascist. Like I said, there is a lot of interest in Ukraine by a lot of parties both Ukrainian and foreign right now. I don't see fascism as a lasting influence. The thought police will make certain of that.

Deasy  posted on  2014-07-23   8:54:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: FormerLurker (#22)

What were Prescott Bush's ties to FDR's government. Can you name any?

Deasy  posted on  2014-07-23   8:55:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Deasy (#21) (Edited)

What it comes down to Deasy is that our State Department is pissed that Putin rained on their parade several times lately.

One issue that they have with him is that he foiled their plans for an attack against Syria, using level headed common sense rather than emotional rants about "saving the children" in regards to claims of chemical weapons use by the Syrian government. It turns out those claims were bogus, and it was in fact our Al-Qaeda friends who launched the attack as a false flag provocation.

The other issue is the fact that Putin granted Ed Snowden asylum in Russia. That is still going up their butt to this day.

So what they did is find a group of fanatics extremely hostile to Russia and Russians in general, which the neo-Nazi extremists such as Red Sector and Svoboda are, and handed them 5 billion dollars to organize a coup against the legitimate Ukraine government which had historically been allied with Russia.

They supported the violent overthrow of the Ukraine government, with Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and US Ambassador Jaffrey Pyatt handing out cookies in Maidan Square to protestors while they were taking breaks from tossing Molotov Cocktails at police.

Now that the Nazis have been placed into power, they are emboldened by the US and NATO backing to "take back" the East Ukraine from separatists they regard as "terrorists" and are ethnic cleansing their way across the region.

There is no greater provocation for Russian people, as they suffered greatly in what they call the "Great War" and have serious animosity towards any group of people declaring themselves Nazis, especially when that group of people are on their doorstep and killing ethnic Russians with reckless abandon.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-07-23   9:08:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Deasy (#24)

What were Prescott Bush's ties to FDR's government. Can you name any?

Read up on who Prescott Bush was and what group of people he was involved with, then tell me he wasn't involved with the inner workings of the financial masters of this country who pulled the strings of ANYONE who was in power in DC.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-07-23   9:10:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: FormerLurker (#26)

Read up on who Prescott Bush was and what group of people he was involved with...

That's not an answer. FDR was not under Prescott Bush's influence that I know. If you have any verified details to the contrary I'd be interested.

Deasy  posted on  2014-07-23   9:12:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: FormerLurker (#25)

So what they did is find a group of fanatics extremely hostile to Russia and Russians in general, which the neo-Nazi extremists such as Red Sector and Svoboda are, and handed them 5 billion dollars to organize a coup against the legitimate Ukraine government which had historically been allied with Russia.

Are you willing to acknowledge the historical fact that Soviet apparatchiks starved the Ukrainian people during the Holdomor? I haven't seen your comments on this one way or another. If you don't recognize that aspect of history, then maybe anti-Russian sentiment in the Ukraine seems fascist to you, no?

I admit that I don't follow the Ukraine situation 24/7 but I can tell you that I'm sure it is not 100% fascists against Russians. Ukrainians are entitled to have their own national boundaries, aren't they? If a Ukrainian objects and waves his own flag, that doesn't make him a NAZI. If you want a sympathetic ear on this theme, then you should present independtntly researched data data here on 4um, with links elsewhere to show that it's not a mixture of different anti-Russian influences.

Personally, I'm sympathetic to the Russian separatists.

Deasy  posted on  2014-07-23   9:20:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Deasy (#27)

Ok sure, you win, grandpoppy Bush never sent money to Hitler (well he did, but if it makes you happy he didn't), western bankers didn't want the US to enter WWII (well they did, but I don't have the time to debate it), and Petro Poroshenko is pure as snow, along with Nobel Prize winner Barrack Obama and his extremely scrupulous Secretary of State, John Kerry.

They are all angels and everything they say is true.

Happy yet?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-07-23   9:21:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: FormerLurker (#29)

I didn't say he didn't. I said I knew he did. I'm just saying that P. Bush didn't have power over FDR. If you can find Bush influence on FDR then post it!

Deasy  posted on  2014-07-23   9:23:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Deasy (#30)

Sorry for the earlier flippant remarks, I'm just a bit annoyed and out of time right now, I'll have to get back to you later.

But regardless of whether or not FDR was influenced directly or indirectly by Preston Bush, the fact remains US bankers financed Hitler's army and made WWII possible.

And the fact remains, the US has just turned one of Russia's staunchest allies against it, and replaced a government friendly to Moscow with one which is comprised of those who share the same ideology as Adolph Hitler.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-07-23   9:38:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: FormerLurker, Cynicom, *antifa* (#31)

Wait a minute: the Ukraine was one of Russia's stauchest allies? They didn't separate from the Russian Federation because they loved it so well. You haven't mentioned the Holodomor yet... getting worried that you're ignoring it.

US firms funded the Nazi party to SOME EXTENT but I would not call it the enabling factor in starting the war. Hitler was going to get Danzig back one way or another. It was on anyone's list in Germany who was resentful of the Versaills treaty.

FDR had secretly promised the British they could do whatever they wanted to Hitler and would be bailed out by Uncle Sam before Hitler made his fateful decision to head for Danzig with the Blitzkrieg.

It's a long stretch to say that any amount of American money enabled these actions from the German side. They were going to happen the minute the German delegation walked away from the negotiating table in that railcar in France in November, 1918. There was no way the German people were going to let Versailles stand without another fight.

Danzig was just the tripwire in the war that Hitler didn't recognize.

Deasy  posted on  2014-07-23   10:04:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Deasy (#32)

They didn't separate from the Russian Federation because they loved it so well.

They were never part of the Russian Federation. Both Russia and Ukraine were part of the Soviet Union.

Prior to the existance of the Soviet Union, land from the current Polish/Ukraine border up to slightly east of Kiev was part of Poland. Land east of that border was Ukraine, and the Russian border with Ukraine was further west than it is today. Crimea was part of Russia at that time, and up till 1954 it remained part of Russia.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-07-23   11:39:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: FormerLurker (#33) (Edited)

You're quibbling. It was a part of the post-Perestroika SFSR until the Ukrainian declaration of independence in July of 1990, which was acknowledged and accepted by a counter resolution in Russian (still Soviet) parliament a few weeks later.

You're still ignoring the Holodomor, the Soviet-imposed famine which mainly struck the Ukraine starving millions of people. What gives?

Deasy  posted on  2014-07-23   11:52:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Deasy (#34)

What gives is that you refusing to accept the fact that the population of East Ukraine are largely of Russian ethnicity and feel more loyalty to Moscow than they do to Kiev.

You also ignore the fact the Ukraine and Russia had financial and military ties, and were on good terms until this newest "revolution" finaced by you and I.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-07-23   12:24:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Jethro Tull (#13)

What is being done in "our" name isn't my problem, nor do I care whose flag flies over what parcel of land outside of this country.

Thing is, "we" as in you and I will be the ones suffering the consequences if the maniacs in DC manage to get into a hot war with Russia. "We", along with the rest of the earth's inhabitants will not survive a nuclear war.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-07-23   12:27:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: FormerLurker (#35)

You're ignoring the fact that some ethnic Ukrainians might remember their forebears' suffering at the hands of the Soviets. None of these things are contradictory. It's a complicated world.

Deasy  posted on  2014-07-23   12:30:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: FormerLurker (#36)

Thing is, "we" as in you and I will be the ones suffering the consequences if the maniacs in DC...

Other than 9/11 and a few other minor incidents we never suffer. We rule the world, remember? All in the name of universal mankind, peace, harmony, and democracy.

Deasy  posted on  2014-07-23   12:32:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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