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Title: Russia melts down
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Dec 16, 2014
Author: Addison Wiggin
Post Date: 2014-12-16 16:21:02 by BTP Holdings
Keywords: None
Views: 373
Comments: 41

We begin today with news out of Russia. The ruble is "getting beat up pretty bad," comments our partner-in-crime Pete Coyne.

Bloomberg puts it, more stolidly, this way: "In a surprise announcement just before 1 a.m. in Moscow, the Russian central bank said it would raise its key interest rate to 17%, from 10.5%, effective today. The move was the largest single increase since 1998, when Russian rates soared past 100% and the government defaulted on debt."

And yet the ruble still lost 2.5% against the dollar by noon today, wiping out an early gain prompted by the rate hike.

Can you imagine interest rates at 17% in the U.S. today? You would have had to have been trying to buy your first home when Blondie was a Playboy Bunny to know what that would feel like.

The U.S. hasn't seen rates above a heart-stopping 8% since October 1990. In fact, it's been six years to the month since the Fed adopted its zero interest rate policy, or ZIRP, as it's affectionately known. In the U.S., money remains free, at least for bankers. Not so much in overseas.

In Russia today, the images are more reminiscent of the currency meltdown in 1998.

In Russia today, the images are more reminiscent of the currency meltdown in 1998. Bloomberg tells the story of people running to exchange counters before their rubles lose more value before lunchtime.

"All of these comparisons to 1998 are making me nostalgic," confessed our own Jim Rickards by email this morning.

He already had two interviews lined up before 10:00 a.m. -- one on Bloomberg at 3:00 and another on RT at 4:30. The last time Russia had a meltdown, Jim's net worth crashed 92% as he was thrust into the trenches with the Federal Reserve, the Treasury and Wall Street's largest banks to negotiate LTCM's rescue.

"That makes me their 'go-to guy' on market meltdowns," he says, with only a tinge of irony.

Back in 1998, the S&P dropped over 60 points, or 10%, in the two weeks following Russia's financial crisis. But today, the real drama is behind the scenes in Russia's bid to acquire gold:

Rickards Chart

"Global growth is already threatened by divergence in the policies of major economies," writes Rickards, "But things could get worse quickly depending on the behavior of certain countries like Russia."

Mohamed El-Erian from Allianz calls them "wild card" countries.

"'Wild card' countries," El-Erian wrote for Project Syndicate recently, are those "whose size and connectivity have important systemic implications. The most notable example is Russia." Mr. El-Erian continues:

"Faced with a deepening economic recession, a collapsing currency, capital flight, and shortages caused by contracting imports, President Vladimir Putin will need to decide whether to change his approach to Ukraine, re-engage with the West to allow for the lifting of sanctions and build a more sustainable, diversified economy.

"The alternative would be to attempt to divert popular discontent at home by expanding Russia's intervention in Ukraine. This approach would most likely result in a new round of sanctions and counter-sanctions, tipping Russia into an even deeper recession -- and perhaps even triggering political instability or more foreign-policy risk-taking -- while exacerbating Europe's economic malaise."

Fact is, global finance now looks like a war game straight out the post-colonial era.

"Putin gives a speech and the ruble falls," Paul Mason observes in this morning's Guardian. "Europe's central bank boss gives a speech and the stock markets fall. OPEC meets in Vienna and the oil price plummets. Japan's prime minister calls a snap election and the yen's slide against the dollar accelerates.

"All these things in the last six weeks of an already fractious year," Mason points out. "There are suddenly multiple conflicts being played out in the global markets, conflicts the global game's usual rules are not built to handle."

“Nearly every currency in the world is down a lot against the U.S. dollar, except the Chinese renminbi.”

"Whether it's an intentional war or an accidental war or side effect," our friend Jim Rogers commented to Wall St. Daily yesterday, "I don't know, but it's certainly happening. You just look around... you see that nearly every currency in the world is down a lot against the U.S. dollar, except the Chinese renminbi...

"I don't know if it's somebody sat around and plotted and said, 'Let's have a currency war.' They just said, 'What we need to do is print a lot of money,' without realizing it's going to cause currency fluctuations."

That's pushing investors into dollars, including Rogers, despite the fact that he has "no confidence in the U.S. dollar long term."

It's also how relatively tame financial wars turn into hot shooting wars. We remember suggesting as much on a radio program a few years ago and getting laughed at on air. The stakes, apparently, weren't perceived to be as high then. Today, the prospect doesn't seem so funny.

A top adviser to President Putin said yesterday if the U.S. kicks Russia out of the global payments system, it will be an act of war and the Russian ambassador should be recalled to Moscow immediately.

Seems like a good time to have a CIA financial strategist in your corner.

Bonne chance,

Addison Wiggin

The Daily Reckoning

P.S. "All this talk of the 'weak' ruble really means a strong dollar," Jim tweeted this morning, "which is deflationary when the Fed wants inflation. So how does that work out?"


Poster Comment:

Looks as if things could be heating up in Siberia. ;)

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#1. To: BTP Holdings (#0)

"The alternative would be to attempt to divert popular discontent at home by expanding Russia's intervention in Ukraine. This approach would most likely result in a new round of sanctions and counter-sanctions, tipping Russia into an even deeper recession -- and perhaps even triggering political instability or more foreign-policy risk-taking -- while exacerbating Europe's economic malaise."

Our nascent legions of Pooty Poot admirers on 4um perhaps would care to evaluate this?

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-16   17:36:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Cynicom (#1)

Our nascent legions of Pooty Poot admirers on 4um perhaps would care to evaluate this?

I'm not a Pooty Poot admirer by any stretch. However, I can read well enough to know that this is just more bad news from Russia that no doubt will go unnoticed by any admirers of Pooty Poot.

Phant2000  posted on  2014-12-16   20:39:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: BTP Holdings (#0)

I wish somebody would assassinate Obama and his whole damn entourage, especially his neocon handlers/mouthpieces. None of this schoolyard sniping will end well for the whole planet.

 photo 001g.gif
“With the exception of Whites, the rule among the peoples of the world, whether residing in their homelands or settled in Western democracies, is ethnocentrism and moral particularism: they stick together and good means what is good for their ethnic group."
-Alex Kurtagic

X-15  posted on  2014-12-16   20:52:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: BTP Holdings (#0)

"I wonder how long it will take Putin to put the ruble on the gold standard. That's always been his trump card; it eliminates Russia's ability to play the money multiplication game, but in the end, will provide Russia with a sounder currency than the so-called currency of last resort."

 photo 001g.gif
“With the exception of Whites, the rule among the peoples of the world, whether residing in their homelands or settled in Western democracies, is ethnocentrism and moral particularism: they stick together and good means what is good for their ethnic group."
-Alex Kurtagic

X-15  posted on  2014-12-16   21:01:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Phant2000 (#2) (Edited)

For those that do not understand, Ukrainians are NOT Russian.

From history...

Ukraine break away? The first independent Ukrainian state was declared in Kiev in 1917, following the collapse of the Russian and Austro-Hungarian empires at the end of World War I. That independence was short-lived. The new country was invaded by Poland, and fought over by forces loyal to the czar and Moscow's new Bolshevik government, which took power in Russia's 1918 revolution. By the time Ukraine was incorporated into the Soviet Union in 1922, its economy was in tatters and its populace starving. Worse was to come.

When Ukrainian peasants refused to join collective farms in the 1930s, Soviet leader Joseph Stalin orchestrated mass executions and a famine that killed up to 10 million people. Afterward, Stalin imported millions of Russians and other Soviet citizens to help repopulate the coal- and iron-ore-rich east. This mass migration, said former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Steven Pifer, helps explain why "the sense of Ukrainian nationalism is not as deep in the east as it is in the west." World War II exacerbated this divide.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-16   21:54:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: BTP Holdings (#0)

the ruble falls

Of course the ruble falls! It has too. The problem with Russia and all governments is they print money backed by nothing.

DWornock  posted on  2014-12-16   23:31:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: BTP Holdings (#0)

Putin will need to decide whether to change his approach to Ukraine, re-engage with the West to allow for the lifting of sanctions and build a more sustainable, diversified economy.

Putin concessions won't make any difference in this Jew-directed adventure. Israel needs to have Russia diminished so it can't support Syria and Iran, two remaining countries which oppose Jew theft of Palestinian lands. Zionist Khazars also want all of what was Ukraine under Jew control and Russian assets diminished so Jew oligharks can regain control which they failed at when the old Soviet Union collapsed.

Tatarewicz  posted on  2014-12-17   1:31:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Cynicom (#5) (Edited)

For those that do not understand, Ukrainians are NOT Russian.

From history...

Ukraine break away? The first independent Ukrainian state was declared in Kiev in 1917, following the collapse of the Russian and Austro-Hungarian empires at the end of World War I. That independence was short-lived. The new country was invaded by Poland, and fought over by forces loyal to the czar and Moscow's new Bolshevik government, which took power in Russia's 1918 revolution. By the time Ukraine was incorporated into the Soviet Union in 1922, its economy was in tatters and its populace starving. Worse was to come.

When Ukrainian peasants refused to join collective farms in the 1930s, Soviet leader Joseph Stalin orchestrated mass executions and a famine that killed up to 10 million people. Afterward, Stalin imported millions of Russians and other Soviet citizens to help repopulate the coal- and iron-ore-rich east. This mass migration, said former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Steven Pifer, helps explain why "the sense of Ukrainian nationalism is not as deep in the east as it is in the west." World War II exacerbated this divide

Ukraine's Russian history goes back to the Middle Ages, not just Russia's Soviet period. Here's some British war scenes of Crimea's Russian history prior to America's "Civil War" era:

The Charge of the Light Brigade (Over The Hills) and Far Away, 25 October 1854

Edited spelling.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2014-12-17   11:56:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Cynicom (#5)

For those that do not understand, Ukrainians are NOT Russian.

Ukrainians are not "Ukrainian", they are either Polish, Russian, Hungarian, Lithuanian, or Tartars. Earlier civilizations there were the Slavs, Rus, Cossocks, and a myraid number of various empires.

There was no country named Ukraine until 1917.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-12-17   12:15:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Cynicom, BTP Holdings (#1)

Perhaps you'll get your dream come true Cyni, since besides the hostile actions of sanctions already imposed on Russia, and the artificial drop in oil prices designed to cripple the ruble, your pal Obama is going to announce new sanctions against Russia by the end of the week. It is also rumored that the US will begin supplying lethal weaponry to the Kiev fascist government so that Kiev can restart the campaign of genocide against the population in the east.

So Russia may just decide that it has nothing to lose by turning off the gas to Europe, and show the world what a Russian invasion of Ukraine REALLY looks like.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-12-17   12:19:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Tatarewicz (#7)

Putin concessions won't make any difference in this Jew-directed adventure. Israel needs to have Russia diminished so it can't support Syria and Iran, two remaining countries which oppose Jew theft of Palestinian lands. Zionist Khazars also want all of what was Ukraine under Jew control and Russian assets diminished so Jew oligharks can regain control which they failed at when the old Soviet Union collapsed.

Jewish War On Holy Russia - Brother Nathanael's assessments

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2014-12-17   12:22:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Cynicom (#1) (Edited)

"The alternative would be to attempt to divert popular discontent at home by expanding Russia's intervention in Ukraine. This approach would most likely result in a new round of sanctions and counter- sanctions, tipping Russia into an even deeper recession -- and perhaps even triggering political instability or more foreign-policy risk-taking -- while exacerbating Europe's economic malaise."

Our nascent legions of Pooty Poot admirers on 4um perhaps would care to evaluate this?

Mohamed El-Erian from Allianz calls them "wild card" countries.

"'Wild card' countries," El-Erian wrote for Project Syndicate recently, are those "whose size and connectivity have important systemic implications. The most notable example is Russia." Mr. El-Erian continues:

"Faced with a deepening economic recession, a collapsing currency, capital flight, and shortages caused by contracting imports, President Vladimir Putin will need to decide whether to change his approach to Ukraine, re-engage with the West to allow for the lifting of sanctions and build a more sustainable, diversified economy.

"The alternative would be to attempt to divert popular discontent at home by expanding Russia's intervention in Ukraine. This approach would most likely result in a new round of sanctions and counter-sanctions, tipping Russia into an even deeper recession -- and perhaps even triggering political instability or more foreign-policy risk-taking -- while exacerbating Europe's economic malaise."

Fact is, global finance now looks like a war game straight out the post-colonial era.

Allianz is a multinational financial services company headquartered in Munich, Germany and El-Erian works for them, not as a speaker for Russia. Oddly, although his first name is claimed to be Mohamed, the "El" of his last name denotes a Hebraic reference for God. "Al" would denote an Arabic reference for God.

Edited for spelling and formatting.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2014-12-17   12:45:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: FormerLurker (#9)

Whatever you think of Webster ideologically, he's certainly pitched his shovel deeply into American and European history. Here's his background piece on what's currently afoot in Russia's soft underbelly. Original is well worth reading. Link below.

Metaphysical Doubts Concerning the Existence of Modern Ukraine, a 1918 Creation of the German General Staff

Webster G. Tarpley, Ph.D. TARPLEY.net April 5, 2014

News reports on the reaction in Kiev to the reunification of the Crimean peninsula with Russia have included the idea that some Ukrainians resent the failure of the United States or the western European powers to intervene militarily against Russia in favor of the new Kiev fascist government. At the same time, it appears that Ukrainian military units have uniformly refused to fight for their borders, their bases, their headquarters, or other strategic assets under their control. Much of the Ukrainian army and navy located in the Crimea has chosen rather to become part of the Russian forces. Repeated attempts by the Yatsenyuk government in Kiev to call up reservists or otherwise to mobilize manpower for military purposes have met with a very meager response.

Hindenburg and Ludendorf

The founding fathers of modern Ukraine: Field Marshal Paul von
Hindenburg (left) and General Erich Ludendorff (right), who ruled
Germany in the name of the German General Staff in 1917-1918

What can we make of a country which refuses to fight for itself, and at the same time, expects foreign countries to pull its chestnuts out of the fire? The reasons may lie in the historical genesis of modern Ukraine, which is a nation called into being during World War I, not by a popular movement of its own people, but rather by the German military leadership, and then propped up in recent years by the United States and the European Union.

International attention has lately been much focused on Ukraine, but world publics know very little of the history involved. The country located on the Pontic step (the flatlands north of the Black Sea) currently calling itself Ukraine has only existed for 23 years, since the failure of the August 1991 KGB- inspired coup in Moscow. Before that, to find something that corresponds to modern Ukraine, we must go back to the Kievan Rus late in the first millennium of the Common Era. This was a state set up by Vikings (called Varangians) along the Dnieper River, which was the main inland waterway between Scandinavia in the north and the Byzantine Empire in the South. It was here that grand Duke Vladimir converted to Orthodox Christianity in the year 988, thus establishing a religious tradition which continues to be decisive in Russian history down to the present day. But Vladimir’s state did not call itself Ukraine, considering itself rather the leading state of Russia, which the Latin West sometimes called Ruthenia.

No Ukraine on Map Until 1918

The Kiev Rus was conquered around the middle of the 1200s by the Mongols, and was thereafter ruled by a series of Mongol Khans. After the Mongol power north of the Black Sea had been shaken by the victory of the grand Duke of Moscow Dmitry Donskoi in the battle of Kulikovo on the Don in 1380, the Mongol yoke over the Kiev region began to fall away. By 1526, much of today’s Ukraine, including Kiev, was part of the very large Polish Republic, which stretched from the Baltic to near the Black Sea. Other parts of today’s Ukraine were under Moscow, while some — including the Crimea — had been incorporated into khanates of the Ottoman Empire, and a small corner had been taken by the emerging Austrian Habsburgs. Little of this had changed by the time of the peace of Westphalia in 1648. Emmanuel Bowen’s 1747 English map of Eastern Europe calls today’s Ukraine “Little Russia” (south of “White Russia,” today’s Byelorus) with “Red Russia” (south of the city of Lvov (Lwow in Polish, Lviv in Ukrainian, Lemberg in German, and Leopoli in Italian); only a very small area astride the Dnieper is labeled “Ukrain,” meaning something like “at the border.”

In the Russo-Turkish War of 1768-1774, Russian troops conquered the north coast of the Black Sea and much of modern Romania from the Ottoman Empire. By the 1774 Treaty of Kuchuk Kainarji, the Turkish Sultan lost his status as overlord of the Black Sea Tartars, and had to allow Russian ships to transit the Straits at Constantinople in and out of the Black Sea. Soon Russia permanently acquired the Black Sea coast, and Moscow’s ability to project power into the Mediterranean, upon which the survival of civilization in Syria has largely depended, dates from this important historical turning point.

...snip...

According to the German historian Frank Golczewski of the University of Hamburg, Imperial German officials (unlike their Austrian allies, who had long held a piece of the future Ukraine) were only vaguely aware of any movement to create Ukraine until September 1914, just after the war had broken out. At this time, self-designated Ukrainians from the Austrian Empire and refugees from the Russian Empire contacted the German foreign office and appealed for assistance. The Germans were immediately intrigued by the obvious possibilities for creating splits inside their Russian enemy. The German diplomats, after quickly studying a series of ethnographic reports to see what they were dealing with, soon began providing money for books, pamphlets, newspapers, and other propaganda motivating the need for an independent Ukraine outside of and opposed to the Russian Empire.

The Germans had been looking for subject nationalities of the Russian Empire, which they could play against the Tsar. The obvious candidates would have been the Poles, and the Germans did later create the Kingdom of Poland as a puppet state in November 1916 on territory they had conquered. But Germany had been ruling harshly and attempting to Prussianize their part of the former Poland for more than a century, and they ran the new Kingdom of Poland in a very oppressive way, so many Poles from Russia were reluctant to have anything to do with Berlin.

Germans Taught Russian Prisoners of War the Idea of Ukraine

By this time, the Germans had already taken large numbers of prisoners of war following the 1914 defeats of the Russian army. They identified about 50,000 of these POWs who based on their birthplaces and dialect might be convinced to become Ukrainians, separated out the officers and sergeants, and put the remaining proto-Ukrainians in special reeducation camps. These proto-Ukrainians were exempted from work, given better treatment, and put into classrooms, where they were given intensive courses in Ukrainian national identity, farming techniques, and the need for socialist revolution. (All of this was provided courtesy of the same Imperial German general staff which hoped to use communism and socialism to overthrow the Tsar and create chaos, hopefully knocking Russia out of the war.)

In Golczewski’s account, the POWs were not at all interested in Ukrainian history, but wanted to hear all about farming techniques and agronomy, since they hoped to benefit from the looming breakup of the large landed estates by getting their own land. The lessons in revolutionary socialism also had a lasting effect on many of them. Of the original 50,000 POWs, about 10,000 were successfully indoctrinated and were shipped back east after the Austrian army had conquered Lemberg/Lvov in June 1915, and they became a vital catalyst in the cause of Ukrainian autonomy or independence. . .

metaphysical- doubts-concerning-the-existence-of- modern-ukraine-a-1918-creation-of-the-german-general-staff

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2014-12-17   12:46:55 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: randge (#13)

Ukraine and Ukrainians existed long afore Russia

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-17   12:59:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Cynicom, randge (#14)

Ukraine and Ukrainians existed long afore Russia

In which universe? Find some references that back up your claim. Good luck finding it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-12-17   13:22:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: randge (#13)

No Ukraine on Map Until 1918

Thanks for that great collection of history. Some people might actually learn from it, while others will close their eyes and pretend it doesn't exist because it would pop their illusion of reality.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-12-17   13:25:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: randge (#13)

go back to the Kievan Rus late in the first millennium of the Common Era. This was a state set up by Vikings (called Varangians) along the Dnieper River, which was the main inland waterway between Scandinavia in the north and the Byzantine Empire in the South. It was here that grand Duke Vladimir converted to Orthodox Christianity in the year 988, thus establishing a religious tradition which continues to be decisive in Russian history down to the present day. But Vladimir’s state did not call itself Ukraine, considering itself rather the leading state of Russia, which the Latin West sometimes called Ruthenia.

Cross-referencing 4um Title: "House of Representatives passes resolution against Russia", Post #41 for more on that and WWII history from Putin:

‘Crimea cradle of Russian Christianity’: Key quotes from Putin’s meeting with historians

for Russians – and I mean the ethnically Russian part of our multinational people, the Christian Russian people – [Crimea] is a sacred place. In Crimea[,] Chersonesus Prince Vladimir [Sviatoslavich the Great] was baptized, and then he converted Russia. The original baptismal font of Russia is there.”

The role that historians play in shaping a country’s perception of itself and its image abroad was the focus of the discussion. They are the ones responsible for providing facts and reasoning, when somebody wants to put a spin on historical events for some political gains today, Putin said.

He added that Poland, which holds a grudge against Russia for sending troops simultaneously with Germany and partitioning Poland – a result of a secret protocol of the German-Soviet treaty that divided Eastern Europe into spheres of influence – should recall how Warsaw previously profited from Nazi aggression.

“They accuse Soviet Union of dividing Poland. Well, what did Poland do when the Germans entered Czechoslovakia? It took part of Czechoslovakia. That’s what it did. And then they got a hockey puck in their own goal,” Putin said.

He also recalled the infamous comments by then-British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain, who promised “peace for our time” to Britons after signing the Munich Agreement, a deal under which Germany, Italy, France and Britain agreed that the Nazis would attack Czechoslovakia with impunity.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2014-12-17   13:52:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Cynicom (#14)

Ukraine and Ukrainians existed long afore Russia

If you wanna reach back there far enough via the Wayback Machine, you'll find them virtually indistinguishable.

"During the Middle Ages, the area of modern Ukraine was the key center of East Slavic culture, as epitomized by the powerful state of Kievan Rus'. " - Wiki

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2014-12-17   14:51:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: FormerLurker, BTP Holdings, Cynicom, Tatarewicz, Phant2000, DWornick, X-15, GreyLmist (#16)

Thanks for that great collection of history

You're welcome.

Bumps & pings to others.

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2014-12-17   15:03:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: randge (#18)

Before it was them, I believe the Vikings dallied there also.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-17   16:18:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Cynicom (#20)

The Rus were Vikings, actually. They were the riverfaring Norse boatmen that gave Russia its name.

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2014-12-17   16:27:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: randge (#21)

They were the riverfaring Norse boatmen that gave Russia its name.

My dislike for Russians derives from varied sources.

History books, olde ones, German emigres after WWII, enlightenment of them during military time and the book Witness by Whittaker Chambers.

Never trust a Russian, your life depends upon it.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-17   16:37:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: randge (#13)

I agree with Former Lurker. It's a great post and some solid history. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2014-12-17   16:39:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: BTP Holdings (#23)

some solid history. ;)

On that alone, never trust a Russian.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-17   16:42:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Cynicom (#24)

So all the people in the world should die because you feel that you can't trust Russians.

Yep, that's a sane concept there Cyni.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-12-17   17:05:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: FormerLurker (#25) (Edited)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2014-12-17   17:15:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Cynicom (#22)

I guess if it was quite likely bullets and shells made in Russia whizzing around my ears at one time, I'd have a hard time surrendering my animus.

Lots of my relations bulled their way into Russia, and when they'd retreated, they were shot, hounded, robbed, raped and pillaged by Russian troops. The Poles stole everything of value that my Dad's family had.

If you can believe it, that's all forgotten now. My uncle is an olde Prussian. He was a farm boy who ended up manning an anti-aircraft 88 which he was ordered to level at American tankers testing the approaches to Frankfurt a/M. When they were good and surrounded and were finally given permission to skedaddle, he found himself prisoner quite far from home. When he got out (very early it was as he was only 17 and thereby amnestied) East Prussia had become Polish and his family farm had been nationalized.

He's over 90 now and still raising chickens and rabbits. He still drives all over the region delivering bags of feed to fowl fanciers and loves to jaw with the locals over bird raising. He'll do that till he drops. You just can't kill an olde Prussian. He's been back to the old family farm in past years and spent time with the Poles that run his old family homestead. He had quite a good time there, and there's no bitterness. Lots of Europeans are past that. They don't want to hate and butcher each other no mo'. They've had a belly full.

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2014-12-17   17:23:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: randge (#27)

Europeans love wars, beeg ones, often.

Most ridiculous was WWI.

King of England, the Kaiser and the Czar were all cuzins.

Millions died, FOR WHAT?

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-17   17:41:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Cynicom (#28)

I know lots of Europeans.

None of them love wars. None.

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2014-12-17   17:45:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: randge (#29)

None of the people who have to fight wars, love war.

The rulers seem to enjoy war quite a lot however.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2014-12-17   18:02:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Lod, randge (#30)

None of the people who have to fight wars, love war.

There is the irony of war.

The elite and powerful get to start them, the masses get to fight and die in them.

My brother said the German civilians were glad to see Americans, then their soldiers killed him.

Who did I hate?

FDR and Hitler.

As a side note, During the war, there was never any love or kinship for the Russians.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-17   19:38:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Cynicom (#31)

I despise Franklin much, much, more than I do Adolph.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2014-12-17   20:44:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Lod (#32)

I despise Franklin much, much, more than I do Adolph.

FDR said over and over, "I will never send American boys to fight in foreign wars"

He lied. The power elite knew he was lying, they remained silent.

Just as now, there is not one member of government, elected or appointed, that will resign and speak the truth to the masses.

Not one person will condemn this government as being criminal and corrupt.

I have a viral hatred for people that lust for power.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-17   21:32:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Cynicom (#33)

Of course he lied, and he allowed the bombing of Pearl to happen; that's why he's more despicable than is Hitler, to me.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2014-12-17   22:05:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Lod (#34)

Of course he lied, and he allowed the bombing of Pearl to happen.

After sanctions and a blockade as we are now doing to......

“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele

“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb

“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm

Hmmmmm  posted on  2014-12-17   22:39:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Cynicom (#28)

Millions died, FOR WHAT?

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p389_John.html

“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele

“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb

“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm

Hmmmmm  posted on  2014-12-17   22:43:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: randge (#19)

Great background, thank you for the ping.

Seems that Obama/MSM/neocons/et al went one direction on Ukraine and the public went the other way. That really pissed off the DeeCee cabal, more so than losing public support for a war in Syria it seems.

 photo 001g.gif
“With the exception of Whites, the rule among the peoples of the world, whether residing in their homelands or settled in Western democracies, is ethnocentrism and moral particularism: they stick together and good means what is good for their ethnic group."
-Alex Kurtagic

X-15  posted on  2014-12-18   0:08:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Hmmmmm (#36)

Millions died, FOR WHAT?

To be removed from the streets. It seems that since the building of Egypt's pyramids those conning/fighting their way into political power have not been able to eliminate surplus manpower regarded as useless and had to be gotten rid of to avoid being a nuisance. No farmers, lumbermen or others producing essentials were enticed or rounded up for war.

Tatarewicz  posted on  2014-12-18   0:30:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: randge (#13) (Edited)

Repeated attempts by the Yatsenyuk government in Kiev to call up reservists or otherwise to mobilize manpower for military purposes have met with a very meager response.

What can we make of a country which refuses to fight for itself, and at the same time, expects foreign countries to pull its chestnuts out of the fire?

Excerpts from Brother Nathanael's March 2, 2014 article: How The IMF Will Loot Ukraine

Yatz The Yid (Arseniy Yatsenyuk) [...]. "Yatz" vows that Kiev will meet all the demands that the Washington-based IMF wants to enslave Ukraine with.

Excerpt from the retitled taraskuzio.net article-source, Oxford Analytica: Global Strategic Analysis, (UKRAINE: Yatsenyuk capitalises on public discontent), the article there dated March 6, 2009 - nearly 6 years ago:

Born in Chernivtsi in 1974 to Jewish-Ukrainian parents,

Oxford Analytica - Wikipedia

Oxford Analytica is an international consulting firm providing strategic analysis of world events.[1] It was founded in 1975 by David Young, an American employee of the National Security Council during the Nixon administration.

Clients of Oxford Analytica consist of governments, international institutions, and public sector bodies, as well as financial institutions, corporations, and other private sector organizations.[2]

Arseniy Yatsenyuk - Wikipedia claims:

According to Yatsenyuk, he comes from a family of ethnic Ukrainians. [1] He is of partly Romanian ancestry; one of his ancestors was a citizen of Greater Romania from the region around Chernivtsi.[12][13] Some sources state he was born tо a family of ethnic Jewish-Ukrainians.[14][15][16] [17][18] An article by Harriet Salem in The Guardian states that he "has played down his Jewish-Ukrainian origins, possibly because of the prevalence of antisemitism in his party's western Ukraine heartland."[19] However, Yaakov Bleich, a chief rabbi of Ukraine, responding to slurs such as "impudent Jew" and "thieving Jew" made against Yatsenyuk during the latter's 2010 presidential election campaign, stated, "Arseniy Yatsenyuk is not Jewish."[20] Furthermore, Anna Rudnitskaya writing on the same presidential election in The Jewish Week said, "[Yatsenyuk's] hypothetical Jewishness was never established."[21]

"Coincidently" (Reference: Post #8 of 4um Title: "Three Members of Congress Just Reignited the Cold War While No One Was Looking"), Dem. Rep. Eliot Engel of New York is noted as one of the 3 Congresspersons that reignited the Cold War for America by their stealth votes. Wikipedia says of him: "His grandparents of Ukrainian Jewish roots immigrated from Russia."

Wouldn't be much of a surprise if Engel is related to the Commie comrade of Marx, Friedrich Engels, and/or Yatsenyuk.

Edited formatting and 2nd Comment section.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2014-12-18   14:01:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: All (#39) (Edited)

Coincidently" (Reference: Post #8 of 4um Title: "Three Members of Congress Just Reignited the Cold War While No One Was Looking"), Dem. Rep. Eliot Engel of New York is noted as one of the 3 Congresspersons that reignited the Cold War for America by their stealth votes. Wikipedia says of him: "His grandparents of Ukrainian Jewish roots immigrated from Russia."

Wouldn't be much of a surprise if Engel is related to the Commie comrade of Marx, Friedrich Engels, and/or Yatsenyuk.

Congressional Irish Caucus

Maybe it's just a coincidence that NY Dem. Rep. Eliot Engel is a member of that Caucus but, just in case he is linked somehow to Friedrich Engels, Commie comrade of Marx, Engels is quoted as saying nearly 150 years ago in a letter to Marx (December 9, 1869) that Ireland's aspirations were to be separate from other class struggles in the world and that Irish peasants weren't to know that Socialist workers were their sole allies in Europe. Reference: en.wikiquote.org

More of Engels' 19th century quotes at that link regarding Eastern Europe and the "next world war", in his view:

Among all the large and small nations of Austria, only three standard-bearers of progress took an active part in history, and still retain their vitality — the Germans, the Poles and the Magyars [My note: Hungarians; Reference: Hungarian Revolution of 1848 - Wikipedia].… All the other large and small nationalities and peoples are destined to perish before long in the revolutionary world storm (Weltsturm).

"The Magyar Struggle." Weltsturm is sometimes translated as "holocaust."

The Austrian Germans and Magyars will be set free and wreak a bloody revenge on the Slav barbarians. The general war which will then break out will smash this Slav Sonderbund and wipe out all these petty hidebound nations, down to their very names. The next world war will result in the disappearance from the face of the earth not only of reactionary classes and dynasties, but also of entire reactionary peoples. And that, too, is a step forward.

"The Magyar Struggle"

Edit: bracketed note inserts.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2014-12-18   20:55:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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