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Title: Turkey Is Lying
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/201 ... y-is-lying-paul-craig-roberts/
Published: Nov 25, 2015
Author: Paul Craig Roberts
Post Date: 2015-11-25 14:42:31 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 808
Comments: 104

Tyler Durden at Zero Hedge has posted the flight paths of the Russian aircraft according to Turkey and to Russia. www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-24/17- seconds-changed-world-leaked-letter-exposes-turkeys-hair-trigger-reality

We know that Turkey is lying for three reasons.

One reason is that NATO governments lie every time that they open their mouths.

A second reason is that Turkey’s claim that the SU-24 was in Turkey’s airspace for 17 seconds but only traveled 1.15 miles means that the SU-24 was flying at stall speed! The entire Western media was too incompetent to do the basic math!

A third reason is that, assuming Turkey’s claim of a 17 second airspace violation is true, 17 seconds is not long enough for a Turkish pilot to get clearance for such a serious and reckless act as shooting down a Russian military aircraft. If the SU-24 was flying at a normal speed rather than one that would be unable to keep the aircraft aloft, the alleged airspace vioation would not have been long enough to be noticed. A shootdown had to have been pre-arranged. The Turks, knowing that the Russians were foolishly trusting to the agreement that there be no air to air encounters, told pilots to look for an opportunity. In my recent article, I gave a reason for this reckless act: www.paulcraigroberts.org/...stroyed-russias-delusion- of-western-cooperation-paul-craig-roberts/

Turkey’s explanation to the UN Security Council gives itself away as a lie. The letter states: “This morning (24 November) 2 SU-24 planes, the nationality of which are unknown have approached Turkish national airspace. The Planes in quesion have been warned 10 times during a period of 5 minutes via ‘Emergency’ channel and asked to change their headings south immediately.”

As SU-24 are Russian aircraft, as Turkey is able to identify that the aircraft are SU-24s, how then can the nationality of the aircraft be unknown? Would Turkey risk shooting down a US or Israeli aircraft by firing at an unknown aircraft? If the SU-24 takes 17 seconds to fly 1.15 miles, the SU-24s would have only traveled 20.29 miles in five minutes. Does anyone believe that a supersonic aircraft can fly at stall speed for 17 seconds, much less for five minutes?

Do not expect any truth from any Western government or from any Western media. Governments and media know that the Western populations are uneducated, unaware, and can be relied upon to accept any preposterous story. In the West the Matrix has a firm grip. The Russians need to wake up to this fact.

NPR this morning confirmed that the media is a government propaganda organ. The Diane Rehm show on NPR presented us with a group of talking heads. Only one was informed, a professor at the Middle East Institute of the London School of Economics. The rest of the “experts” were the typical dumbshit Americans. They repeated all of the lies. “Russia is attacking everyone except ISIS.” How can there be anyone but ISIS to attack when the US general overseeing the area recently told Congress that “only 5” of our trained “rebels” remained? Yet the myth of “moderate rebels” is kept alive by these liars.

“The refugees are fleeing the brutal Assad.” Notice that it is always Assad who is brutal, not ISIS which has cut out opponents hearts and eaten them and routinely cuts off peoples heads and commits the most atrocious atrocities. Here we have “experts” blaming Assad. The “experts” said that the refugees are fleeing from Assad not from ISIS. The refugee problem is Assad’s fault, not the faut of ISIS. It is all Assad’s fault because he doesn’t give up and turn Syria over to Washington’s ISIS henchmen.

There was no acknowledgement from the “experts” that ISIS is a Washington creation or that until the Paris attack Washington was strongly backing ISIS with both words and weapons against the Russian air attacks that caught both Washington and ISIS off guard. This is extraordinary considering the fact that US responsibility for ISIS was acknowledged on TV by the former head of the Pentagon’s Defense Intelligence Agency. https://www.rt.com/usa/312050-dia-flynn- islamic-state/

Gullible Americans who give money to NPR are supporting lies and propaganda that have resulted in the deaths and dislocation of millions of peoples and that are leading to WWIII. The Western media whores are complicit in the crimes, because they fail their responsibility to hold government accountable and make it impossible for valid information to reach people. The Western media serves as cheerleaders for death and destruction.

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#28. To: Lod (#15)

I don't think that Cyni uses adult soda-pops.

It must be at least a few bad batches of moonshine, because it's certainly killed more than a few brain cells if he ever had more than a shot glass full to begin with.


"After tomorrow those SOB's will never embarrass me again. That’s not a threat. That’s a promise.” – LBJ to his mistress Madeleine Brown on the eve of JFK assassination

FormerLurker  posted on  2015-11-25   20:51:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: FormerLurker, Cynicom, christine (#25)

Turkey would never have done this without a green light given to them.

Wrong...

No, RIGHT.

Lavrov said today that Turkey has an agreement with us that when they use our hardware (read F-16s for example) they have to give us a heads up first.

I can't vouch for Lavrov's assertions, but I'm sure we'll hear more in the coming days if absolutely everything doesn't come off the rails.

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2015-11-25   20:51:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: randge (#29)

Lavrov said today that Turkey has an agreement with us that when they use our hardware (read F-16s for example) they have to give us a heads up first.

That may be true, but Erdogan doesn't care about what he's SUPPOSED to do anyways as he's buying stolen Syrian oil from ISIS. Oh wait, might he have gotten the "green light" on that TOO I wonder...


"After tomorrow those SOB's will never embarrass me again. That’s not a threat. That’s a promise.” – LBJ to his mistress Madeleine Brown on the eve of JFK assassination

FormerLurker  posted on  2015-11-25   20:54:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: christine (#21)

American population will experience something they have not since 1945, shortages

Impossible. Main problem in economy is distributing stuff, not production. Millions of cars sitting in sales yards waiting for drivers. Other day, small local grocery store dumped 50 cases of California strawberries (eight packets/case); I took a free case for composting with autumn leaves. Forty percent of current food production doesn't make it to the dinner table. If financial system "collapses" all practical politicians need to do is simply say: keep doing what you're doing, maybe a little less,take what you need and everything will be OK. In the meantime we'll devise a system in which production matches need, so there isn't as much waste.

Tatarewicz  posted on  2015-11-25   22:25:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: randge (#29)

No, RIGHT.

Wrong, still.

Rules of engagement. Heads up if PLANNED.

Dont tell me the Turks PLANNED to send the Russki jet into their air space?

Good heavens....

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-25   22:34:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Cynicom (#32)

Not wrong if the plan was to goad russia so as to destabilize a potential french russian alliance outside of natos perview.

The had no reason to shoot it down since they knew nothing in their territory was on the target list.

Their was no reason to do it unless the reason was to piss off russia and nothing else.

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2015-11-25   23:03:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: randge (#11)

What kind of sauce, if any, do you all put on your crab cakes?

StraitGate  posted on  2015-11-25   23:19:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Cynicom (#32)

Russia DIDN'T fly into Turkey's airspace.

Turkey lied. Then again, Turkey DOES support ISIS and buys stolen oil from them.


"After tomorrow those SOB's will never embarrass me again. That’s not a threat. That’s a promise.” – LBJ to his mistress Madeleine Brown on the eve of JFK assassination

FormerLurker  posted on  2015-11-26   0:40:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: randge (#11)

Just like pecan pies should be FULL of pecans (not just a nutty layer on top of some goo) crab cakes should be 95% sweet blue crab with just enough egg and bread crumbs to hold them together.

Mrs. r. makes some badass crab cakes. We used to get fresh crabs from the Chesapeake Bay. You can get some pretty fresh crab here in H-town though. The Missus orders them through a chef, which is OK with me. Them things are a bear to pick and clean out. : )

Thank you for weighing in on an overlooked subject, pecan pies -- seriously. If they're mostly goo, they should be called goo pies, which is how it is most of the time esp with ALL that are manufactured e.g. what you get in restaurants.

H-town? Hagerstown? Hobe Sound? Hawthorne, Hayward, Hermosa Beach?

Easy does it, people.

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2015-11-26   1:10:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: NeoconsNailed (#36)

Easy does it, people.

Hiroshima? Harlem? Hell? Haifa?

StraitGate  posted on  2015-11-26   1:21:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: StraitGate (#37)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell, _Michigan

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2015-11-26   1:39:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: titorite (#33)

Their was no reason to do it unless the reason was to piss off russia and nothing else.

Indeed...

The Turks drew a line in the sand, stay the hell away.

The Ruskies are NOT dealing with Obama now. The Turks are well aware Putin is playing in their sandbox, A VERY LONG WAY FROM HOME.

Astute observers were quick to take note of what Pooty came out with very early on...WE DO NOT WANT WAR WITH TURKEY...

Very forthright, the Turks understood him, Pooty understands now, dont tempt Turkey because they have and will take action.

Quick media judgements are readily adopted here by far too many members.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   9:53:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: NeoconsNailed (#38) (Edited)

Nope. It ain't Hell.

Been there, done that.

Greatest burgers in the Wolverine State.

dam site in, hell michigan

H-town = Houston.

Which is in Texas and don'tcha damned well forget it!

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2015-11-26   11:24:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Cynicom (#39)

I think you have a media bias point of view cyni...the russain aren't scared of Turkey. They are trying to avoid a nuclear escalation with NATO so as to avoid M.A.D. That said , turkish fuel trucks buying isis oil are no longer safe inside syria. It was in the news today. Turkey says it was humanitarian aid trucks. Russia says terrorist accomplices buying isis oil are also terrorists. Therefore fair game. Turkey really fucked up. Not Russia.

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2015-11-26   12:39:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: titorite (#41)

I think you have a media bias point of view cyni.

Perhaps...

Perhaps you understand why Russia considers the US as their best ally?

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   13:52:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Cynicom (#42)

That ain't stopping them from targeting Isis oil shipments.

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2015-11-26   13:54:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: titorite (#43)

That ain't stopping them from targeting Isis oil shipments.

Will Russians take care NOT to go near Turkish airspace?

Or will Pooty continue to nibble around the edges?

I wager the border will avoided at all costs.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   14:14:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Cynicom (#44)

I wager the border will avoided at all costs.

There's no need to provoke the Turks at the border. Just stay in Syria and blast away.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2015-11-26   14:21:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Lod (#45)

There's no need to provoke the Turks at the border. Just stay in Syria and blast away.

Pooty has pushed for years. This time he pushed in the wrong place and got himself bitten but good on the world stage.

China and the US are snickering in their shoes.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   14:53:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Cynicom (#46)

Erdogan's pronouncements are just as dopey as are Barry's.

I'm tired of the world's crap.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2015-11-26   15:23:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Lod (#45)

Joel Skousen of World Affairs Brief, who is a decorated Vietnam-era combat pilot and as hard-assed Russo-skeptic as they come, thinks that the Su-24 shoot was a provocation by us to get the Russians to do exactly what they have done: ordered fighter escorts into the air to accompany air-to-ground missions.

The reason for this is that while the Russians have tons of data on our ECMs - electronic countermeasures - obtained in the course of our Iraq & Afghan operations, we have very little on theirs. Skousen said on Rense that no one should to be surprised if there are attempts over the next couple of weeks to get the Russians to light up their onboard radars and other stuff over Syria. If more high altitude sparring takes place in the near future, this may be the reason why.

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2015-11-26   15:27:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: randge (#48)

The reason for this is that while the Russians have tons of data on our ECMs - electronic countermeasures - obtained in the course of our Iraq & Afghan operations, we have very little on theirs.

Having been immersed in ECM for several years militarily, I would wager that assertion as false and baseless.

War is NOT a speculators game. Either you know or you do not know and the loser is the one that came up short.

My first NSA briefing was a shocker. We came away speechless.

All out war painted for you, with your life in question, is a view into the real world.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   15:48:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Cynicom (#49)

Whatever your professional and/or life experiences may be, Cyni, your use of uncircumcribed absolutes detracts from your credibility.

Happy Thanksgiving, friend.

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2015-11-26   16:03:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: randge (#50)

I admit to not being TV educated.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   16:21:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Cynicom (#51)

Enjoy your holiday.

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2015-11-26   16:36:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Cynicom (#1)

you are proof that wisdom does not old age bestow.


I used to be in a hurry, then I figured out I was just getting nowhere fast.

IRTorqued  posted on  2015-11-26   18:00:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: randge (#48)

Skousen said on Rense that no one should to be surprised if there are attempts over the next couple of weeks to get the Russians to light up their onboard radars and other stuff over Syria. If more high altitude sparring takes place in the near future, this may be the reason why.

Knowing nothing about ECMs, this makes sense here.

Skousen is no lightweight.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2015-11-26   18:20:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: IRTorqued (#53)

Care to elaborate?

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   18:58:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Cynicom (#55) (Edited)

Well let's see if I can take a shot at it, .... Russia doesn't give a flip about turkey, turkey is changing their story up saying they did not know the planes were Russian , both Germany and the USA are pulling out their Patriot missiles systems from turkey.....

So yeah I would agree that all that bluster about the mighty bear being scared of the lying sniveling back stabbing turkey was just silliness. On par with turtle only he has a thicker shell and I hear women like baldness sometimes.

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2015-11-26   19:07:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: titorite (#56)

So yeah I would agree that all that bluster about the mighty bear being scared of the lying sniveling back stabbing turkey was just silliness.

Scared?

Hardly, the Russians have no reason to be afraid of Turkey,

Poot is playing in Turkeys sandbox, a long way from home.

Over the years, the Soviets shot down many of our intrusion aircraft, always in their backyard, no war nothing said.

Perhaps you recall Ike coining the term "plausible deniability" as a public lie to tell the American people?

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   19:17:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Cynicom (#57)

Perhaps you recall Ike coining the term "plausible deniability" as a public lie

I recall the term, but did not know it was Ike that coined it. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2015-11-26   19:25:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Cynicom (#57)

Was that in response to the U-2 flights, or something else? thanks.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2015-11-26   19:27:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: BTP Holdings (#58)

The US and Brits began overflying Russia before the end of WWII.

Patton and many others were well aware of the long haul intentions of Stalin.

Ike would authorize overflights but wanted a patent lie that could be given Americans, a lie that """could""" have some tiny shred of truth to it. Plausible deniability came out of it.

I lost friends that were caught over Russia. Russians shot them down, said nothing publicly, our military said they were missing over the Pacific on a "routine training flight". It was all a lie.

If you have time, on internet, google Capt. Harold Austin B-47 caught in Russian overflight. Its all there for anyone caring to see what the real world is like.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   19:36:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Lod (#59)

Was that in response to the U-2 flights, or something else? thanks.

At time of U2 yes.

However we were running many other flights over Russia and China before the U2.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   19:38:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Cynicom (#61)

Thanks.

Always good to learn that some memory banks are still functioning.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2015-11-26   19:44:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Ada (#0)

Tsar Peter [Putin's favorite Russian leader ] used to say: "Don't trust the three: don't trust a woman, don't trust a Turk, and don't trust a non-drinker."

fortruss.blogspot.com/201...say-never-trust-turk.html

I'm with Tsar Peter on #2. Turkey has had its nose out of joint since Russia recognized the Armenian genocide, coupled with Pooty Poot bombing ISIS ( and Turkmen) camps in Syria.

Imho, Turkey is lying - Turkey nailed the Russian plane to send a message to Putin to back off, thinking that as a member of NATO it had cover. Turkey may be over estimating its strategic importance and treaties are like the US Constitution these days.

thehill.com/blogs/pundits...ay-have-a-strong-case-in- turkish-shootdown

scrapper2  posted on  2015-11-26   20:05:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Cynicom (#60)

Well that explains everything. My condolences sir.

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2015-11-26   20:10:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: scrapper2 (#63)

Oh, Turkey is atrocious and always has been -- the eternal world headquarters of brutal Islamic supremacism. Can anybody think of a single appearance by Turkey on the historical stage that wasn't bloody and tyrannical?

The idea of admitting it to any European club is sheer madness. IT IS IN ASIA and it shows.

I HATE Turkey and don't care who knows it.

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2015-11-26   20:11:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: titorite (#64)

I attended their memorial services at NSA Washington, back when Clinton finally admitted they had been shot down by Russians long ago.

The real world, conducted in the shadows goes on.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   20:20:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: Cynicom (#66)

Anybody trusts this governent to give 'em the right time of day, I'm sorry for 'em. We must reach the young and warn them of how DC, the bankers and fatcats want to throw their lives away.

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2015-11-26   20:22:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: Cynicom (#66)

My grand father was a flying tiger. Later went into to apollo program and did capsule test drops. He flew em and dropped em. A full carrer man.

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2015-11-26   21:39:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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