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Title: Turkey Is Lying
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/201 ... y-is-lying-paul-craig-roberts/
Published: Nov 25, 2015
Author: Paul Craig Roberts
Post Date: 2015-11-25 14:42:31 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 791
Comments: 104

Tyler Durden at Zero Hedge has posted the flight paths of the Russian aircraft according to Turkey and to Russia. www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-24/17- seconds-changed-world-leaked-letter-exposes-turkeys-hair-trigger-reality

We know that Turkey is lying for three reasons.

One reason is that NATO governments lie every time that they open their mouths.

A second reason is that Turkey’s claim that the SU-24 was in Turkey’s airspace for 17 seconds but only traveled 1.15 miles means that the SU-24 was flying at stall speed! The entire Western media was too incompetent to do the basic math!

A third reason is that, assuming Turkey’s claim of a 17 second airspace violation is true, 17 seconds is not long enough for a Turkish pilot to get clearance for such a serious and reckless act as shooting down a Russian military aircraft. If the SU-24 was flying at a normal speed rather than one that would be unable to keep the aircraft aloft, the alleged airspace vioation would not have been long enough to be noticed. A shootdown had to have been pre-arranged. The Turks, knowing that the Russians were foolishly trusting to the agreement that there be no air to air encounters, told pilots to look for an opportunity. In my recent article, I gave a reason for this reckless act: www.paulcraigroberts.org/...stroyed-russias-delusion- of-western-cooperation-paul-craig-roberts/

Turkey’s explanation to the UN Security Council gives itself away as a lie. The letter states: “This morning (24 November) 2 SU-24 planes, the nationality of which are unknown have approached Turkish national airspace. The Planes in quesion have been warned 10 times during a period of 5 minutes via ‘Emergency’ channel and asked to change their headings south immediately.”

As SU-24 are Russian aircraft, as Turkey is able to identify that the aircraft are SU-24s, how then can the nationality of the aircraft be unknown? Would Turkey risk shooting down a US or Israeli aircraft by firing at an unknown aircraft? If the SU-24 takes 17 seconds to fly 1.15 miles, the SU-24s would have only traveled 20.29 miles in five minutes. Does anyone believe that a supersonic aircraft can fly at stall speed for 17 seconds, much less for five minutes?

Do not expect any truth from any Western government or from any Western media. Governments and media know that the Western populations are uneducated, unaware, and can be relied upon to accept any preposterous story. In the West the Matrix has a firm grip. The Russians need to wake up to this fact.

NPR this morning confirmed that the media is a government propaganda organ. The Diane Rehm show on NPR presented us with a group of talking heads. Only one was informed, a professor at the Middle East Institute of the London School of Economics. The rest of the “experts” were the typical dumbshit Americans. They repeated all of the lies. “Russia is attacking everyone except ISIS.” How can there be anyone but ISIS to attack when the US general overseeing the area recently told Congress that “only 5” of our trained “rebels” remained? Yet the myth of “moderate rebels” is kept alive by these liars.

“The refugees are fleeing the brutal Assad.” Notice that it is always Assad who is brutal, not ISIS which has cut out opponents hearts and eaten them and routinely cuts off peoples heads and commits the most atrocious atrocities. Here we have “experts” blaming Assad. The “experts” said that the refugees are fleeing from Assad not from ISIS. The refugee problem is Assad’s fault, not the faut of ISIS. It is all Assad’s fault because he doesn’t give up and turn Syria over to Washington’s ISIS henchmen.

There was no acknowledgement from the “experts” that ISIS is a Washington creation or that until the Paris attack Washington was strongly backing ISIS with both words and weapons against the Russian air attacks that caught both Washington and ISIS off guard. This is extraordinary considering the fact that US responsibility for ISIS was acknowledged on TV by the former head of the Pentagon’s Defense Intelligence Agency. https://www.rt.com/usa/312050-dia-flynn- islamic-state/

Gullible Americans who give money to NPR are supporting lies and propaganda that have resulted in the deaths and dislocation of millions of peoples and that are leading to WWIII. The Western media whores are complicit in the crimes, because they fail their responsibility to hold government accountable and make it impossible for valid information to reach people. The Western media serves as cheerleaders for death and destruction.

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#65. To: scrapper2 (#63)

Oh, Turkey is atrocious and always has been -- the eternal world headquarters of brutal Islamic supremacism. Can anybody think of a single appearance by Turkey on the historical stage that wasn't bloody and tyrannical?

The idea of admitting it to any European club is sheer madness. IT IS IN ASIA and it shows.

I HATE Turkey and don't care who knows it.

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2015-11-26   20:11:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: titorite (#64)

I attended their memorial services at NSA Washington, back when Clinton finally admitted they had been shot down by Russians long ago.

The real world, conducted in the shadows goes on.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   20:20:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: Cynicom (#66)

Anybody trusts this governent to give 'em the right time of day, I'm sorry for 'em. We must reach the young and warn them of how DC, the bankers and fatcats want to throw their lives away.

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2015-11-26   20:22:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: Cynicom (#66)

My grand father was a flying tiger. Later went into to apollo program and did capsule test drops. He flew em and dropped em. A full carrer man.

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2015-11-26   21:39:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: NeoconsNailed (#67)

Hey nn..... speaking of education, do you watch first amendment audits on youtube?

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2015-11-26   21:46:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Cynicom (#55)

sure, you are an old fool.


I used to be in a hurry, then I figured out I was just getting nowhere fast.

IRTorqued  posted on  2015-11-27   8:15:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: titorite (#69) (Edited)

Wow, never heard of 'em! Watching the 1st one

www.youtube.com/watch? v=P_vfmEfp1KQ

Oh, GOD, by the end it's nothing but a test of police RACISM. I can't take it any longer. So fat today I've already had to leave a comment on a Live25 vid about this neurosis and put up with a spitload of it watching a documentary on Anonymous. Yankees know nothing but responding to media mass media stimuli EVEN WHEN THEY THINK THEY'RE EXPOSING AND COUNTERACTING IT!

The audits are a great concept if they're handled right. IMHO, that would start with a paper trail in advance of the first sortie as to what's allowed and under what code section, but I always was rather particular. Shoot me soem good cases please.

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2015-11-27   8:29:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: IRTorqued (#70)

Are you a paragon of wisdom yourself?

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2015-11-27   8:30:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: titorite (#68)

My grand father was a flying tiger.

Then he was a "volunteer".

The military, with the wink of an eye, allowed pilots to volunteer to resign their commission, join AVG for pay and fight the Japanese. After war breakout Gen. Chennault and men were absorbed by Army Air Corp.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-27   8:53:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: IRTorqued (#70)

sure, you are an old fool.

Most here have long been aware of that fact.

However why not overlook personal dislikes and add something to the conversation???

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-27   9:01:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Cynicom (#74)

Pay him (her?) no mind!

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2015-11-27   10:04:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Cynicom (#32)

Wrong, still.

Rules of engagement. Heads up if PLANNED.

Dont tell me the Turks PLANNED to send the Russki jet into their air space?

Good heavens....

It's easy to jabber and jeer at others' speculation here when you avoid communicating in articulated sentences. You just hammer away with one liners.

Nobody made the absurd suggestion that "the Turks PLANNED to send the Russki jet into their air space."

If you have been following things you'll know that the Turkmen (who speak a Turkic dialect pretty much intelligible by other Turks) are cooperating with Erdogan and the organ eaters of ISIS to make life miserable for both the Kurds and the Assad government right belly up against the Turkish border.

These bastards are a nasty piece of work, and like ISIS fighters, they need the shit stomped out of them, which the Russians were doing with air-to-ground work.

Hell, I don't propose to know if this was a RUSSIAN PROVOCATION or a TURKISH PROVOCATION or an AMERICAN PROVOCATION. There are reasons for speculating on any number of hypotheses here, and nobody here can PROVE nothin'. It's a DISCUSSION after all.

I'd say though that IF this were a NATO job, this would have been the perfect opportunity to put it in play with the Russians operating a razor's edge off the Turkish border.

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2015-11-27   11:41:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: StraitGate (#34)

What kind of sauce, if any, do you all put on your crab cakes?

I think the missus used some mayo, lemon juice, chili powder and cayenne, with just a dab of Dijon mustard, and a small sprinkle of chopped chives and parsley in the crab cake sauce. But you really don't need much of anything to top them off with, AFAIC.

Crab cakes were great for Thanksgiving. We went light on the kitchen drudgery this year, drank whiskey and watched the bloody Cowboys get the crap stomped out of them.

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2015-11-27   11:57:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: randge (#77)

Thanks. That all sounds good. I'm glad there wasn't any garlic involved.

StraitGate  posted on  2015-11-27   15:16:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: randge (#76)

It's easy to jabber and jeer at others' speculation here when you avoid communicating in articulated sentences. You just hammer away with one liners.

Consider this...

Just perhaps much or most of the "speculation" offered here on the 4um is so asinine, so childish, it is not worth my time, nor anyones time, in any attempt of refutation.

Making such personal is a definite indication of inferiority of intellect and character.

Posters feeling the need for personal attack, rather than adding to the conversation, expose themselves for feeling some inadequacy.

If one does not suffer fools easily, I suggest they NOT read my postings.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-27   15:32:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Cynicom (#73)

That would be correct. He was full of that shawdow information that he could tell ya but then hed have to kill you. Retired as a lt colonel. Biggest funeral I ever seen.

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2015-11-27   16:04:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: NeoconsNailed (#72)

I would say , undoubtedly. IRtorqued is among the sharper cookies of freedom4um. He dont need kid gloves and he dont wear them... torque uses blacksmith gloves.

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2015-11-27   16:06:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: titorite (#80)

That would be correct. He was full of that shawdow information that he could tell ya but then hed have to kill you. Retired as a lt colonel. Biggest funeral I ever seen.

Only the cream of the crop was allowed to "volunteer".

It is most difficult to have people stand in front of you, explain to you what you will do, how you will do it and that your chance of return is slim to none. You are shown things, told things, have the real world background explained to you, you walk out numb to the bone, but a hell of a lot wiser.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-27   16:17:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: Cynicom, randge (#79)

Making such personal is a definite indication of inferiority of intellect

If one does not suffer fools easily, I suggest they NOT read my postings.

Fascinating, Cynicom. In the same post that you accuse another forum member of having an inferior intellect, you admit that you yourself are a fool.

StraitGate  posted on  2015-11-27   16:44:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: titorite (#80)

He was full of that shawdow information that he could tell ya but then hed have to kill you.

LOL

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2015-11-27   16:44:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: randge (#77)

Crab cakes

The best meal they gave us at Woodstock '94 was soft shell Crab. Delicious! ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2015-11-27   16:48:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: StraitGate (#83)

Fascinating, Cynicom. In the same post that you accuse another forum member of having an inferior intellect, you admit that you yourself are a fool.

Must be true, right????

Those of us that are mental midgets, have no pretensions.

Olde saying, "he does not suffer fools gladly" would be fitting for denizens of 4um?

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-27   16:52:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: Cynicom (#79)

Just perhaps much or most of the "speculation" offered here on the 4um is so asinine, so childish, it is not worth my time, nor anyones time, in any attempt of refutation.

I find that amusing to hear from one who holds GW Bush in such high esteem he emulates his infantile behavior towards others, such as referring to the Russian president as "Pooty Poot". Can't you see that's a bit immature and childish?

Oh, and as far as Russia shaking in their boots over the Turkish dictator's criminal behavior, well, I beg to differ.

S-400 in Syria: Russia Gives 'Stark Warning' to Turkey


"After tomorrow those SOB's will never embarrass me again. That’s not a threat. That’s a promise.” – LBJ to his mistress Madeleine Brown on the eve of JFK assassination

FormerLurker  posted on  2015-11-27   16:53:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: NeoconsNailed (#65)

Can anybody think of a single appearance by Turkey on the historical stage that wasn't bloody and tyrannical?

The Turks captured Lawrence of Arabia. They had never seen an Arab with blue eyes, so they tortured him to make him talk. They did not succeed. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2015-11-27   16:54:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: StraitGate (#78)

I'm glad there wasn't any garlic involved.

I use plenty of garlic in my Texas style chili, with NO beans. Gives the chili plenty of heat. I also use jalapenos, seeded, of course. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2015-11-27   17:00:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: BTP Holdings (#89)

We could almost get along, I think. I lived in Arizona years ago and learned that real chili doesn't have beans. Lots of jalepenos, yes. But I quit using garlic some years ago; grew to hate it for some reason. So much so that I don't even use regular chili powder, as it always has garlic in it. Instead I use ancho chile powder. Here in the Southeast, most people who try my chili like it, even my wife who always puts beans in her chili when she's cooking.

Sometimes I pre-roast the jalapenos over a slow fire of hickory (mesquite might be better, but can't get it around here). That's really good. Try it sometime.

Ever put a little dark chocolate in your chili? That's pretty good, too.

StraitGate  posted on  2015-11-27   17:34:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: StraitGate (#90) (Edited)

Instead I use ancho chile powder.

Ever put a little dark chocolate in your chili?

I'll have to try to find ancho chili powder. Don't think I've ever seen it.

Dark chocolate in your chili? Sounds interesting. I'll have to try it. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2015-11-27   17:42:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: NeoconsNailed, Cynicom (#65)

Turkey

Do you know how they solved the Cuban Missile Crisis? The U.S. agreed to withdraw the Jupiter missiles from Turkey. That did the trick. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2015-11-27   17:47:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: StraitGate (#90)

Chili with no beans -- I'm sorry, but the whole friendship's off!

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2015-11-27   17:56:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: BTP Holdings (#88) (Edited)

Seeing the movie, I kept waiting for some turning point at which he'd realize the English were rteacherous bastards. it came right late, but that was still on time :-)

I've just returned from a visit with a pastor and wife from South Africa. Both white and expecting their 7th child. The Boer War came up and thank God we were in agreement. That makes one from Namibia, one from Zim and one from SA that I've known here in greater Greenville since 2000 -- all homeschoolers etc.

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2015-11-27   17:58:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: titorite (#81)

I would say , undoubtedly. IRtorqued is among the sharper cookies of freedom4um. He dont need kid gloves and he dont wear them... torque uses blacksmith gloves.

And the reason he's suddenly smacking Cynicom in the face is -- what?

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2015-11-27   18:06:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: NeoconsNailed, StraitGate (#93)

When I was down in Tabasco a couple of years ago, I asked a petroleum engineer what they call that "chili" dish that you can find in a diner everywhere in any one of the 50 state up north.

He said, "We call it frijoles borrachos." In other words - drunken beans. That is a dish that has its own virtues IMHO, but should be eaten in moderation for obvious reasons. I think they like to make it with bacon down there rather than with ground beef though.

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2015-11-27   19:28:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: NeoconsNailed (#93)

Chili with no beans -- I'm sorry...

Beans are to a Texan's or Arizonan's chili what water is to an Irishman's whiskey.

This is a very emotional topic for some absolutists, among whom I do not really number myself. (Google returns 31.7M results for "beans in chili".) I can live with beans in chili if the alternative is starving. But if you want to put macaroni or rice in it, then please move to Haiti.

StraitGate  posted on  2015-11-27   19:56:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: StraitGate (#97)

This could get hotter than a Turkey shoot in the Middle East but:

Beans and chilis are Southwestern food too - whether your call them borrachos or charros or whatever.

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2015-11-27   20:05:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: randge (#98)

This thread is giving me a flashback to the chimichangas at El Charro Cafe in Tucson. Never had anything quite like that since, but I can make one at home that's fairly close to it.

StraitGate  posted on  2015-11-27   20:12:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: randge, StraitGate, NN, 4 (#98)

Mrs.L loves her Ranch Style beans, so they'll be in tomorrow's chili, along with lean ground turkey, Wick Fowler's Two Alarm Chili Fixins, onions and other stuff. Drop in if you're in the hood.

I may even do some Ass-kickin' cornbread to complete the feast.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2015-11-27   20:15:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Lod (#100)

Mrs. SG loves her Ranch Style Beans, too.

Corn bread: I use a big black iron skillet. Pre-heat it and put a couple of tablespoons of corn oil in it. Add some corn and chopped jalapenos to the batter. Pour the batter into the hot skillet over the hot corn oil. Throw the skillet into the oven until it's done.

Did I mention that I like to eat?

StraitGate  posted on  2015-11-27   21:37:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: StraitGate (#101)

Here's the coolest baking device you'll ever use:

www.bakersedge.com/ if you like the crust, you'll love it.

I use it for lots and lots of things.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2015-11-27   21:51:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: Lod (#102)

Edges galore! Thanks. Now I know what to get my wife for me for Christmas.

StraitGate  posted on  2015-11-27   21:56:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: StraitGate (#103)

Great! I guarantee that you guys will love it. We have two in case guests are coming in for chow.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2015-11-27   22:05:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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