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Title: Turkey Is Lying
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/201 ... y-is-lying-paul-craig-roberts/
Published: Nov 25, 2015
Author: Paul Craig Roberts
Post Date: 2015-11-25 14:42:31 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 784
Comments: 104

Tyler Durden at Zero Hedge has posted the flight paths of the Russian aircraft according to Turkey and to Russia. www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-24/17- seconds-changed-world-leaked-letter-exposes-turkeys-hair-trigger-reality

We know that Turkey is lying for three reasons.

One reason is that NATO governments lie every time that they open their mouths.

A second reason is that Turkey’s claim that the SU-24 was in Turkey’s airspace for 17 seconds but only traveled 1.15 miles means that the SU-24 was flying at stall speed! The entire Western media was too incompetent to do the basic math!

A third reason is that, assuming Turkey’s claim of a 17 second airspace violation is true, 17 seconds is not long enough for a Turkish pilot to get clearance for such a serious and reckless act as shooting down a Russian military aircraft. If the SU-24 was flying at a normal speed rather than one that would be unable to keep the aircraft aloft, the alleged airspace vioation would not have been long enough to be noticed. A shootdown had to have been pre-arranged. The Turks, knowing that the Russians were foolishly trusting to the agreement that there be no air to air encounters, told pilots to look for an opportunity. In my recent article, I gave a reason for this reckless act: www.paulcraigroberts.org/...stroyed-russias-delusion- of-western-cooperation-paul-craig-roberts/

Turkey’s explanation to the UN Security Council gives itself away as a lie. The letter states: “This morning (24 November) 2 SU-24 planes, the nationality of which are unknown have approached Turkish national airspace. The Planes in quesion have been warned 10 times during a period of 5 minutes via ‘Emergency’ channel and asked to change their headings south immediately.”

As SU-24 are Russian aircraft, as Turkey is able to identify that the aircraft are SU-24s, how then can the nationality of the aircraft be unknown? Would Turkey risk shooting down a US or Israeli aircraft by firing at an unknown aircraft? If the SU-24 takes 17 seconds to fly 1.15 miles, the SU-24s would have only traveled 20.29 miles in five minutes. Does anyone believe that a supersonic aircraft can fly at stall speed for 17 seconds, much less for five minutes?

Do not expect any truth from any Western government or from any Western media. Governments and media know that the Western populations are uneducated, unaware, and can be relied upon to accept any preposterous story. In the West the Matrix has a firm grip. The Russians need to wake up to this fact.

NPR this morning confirmed that the media is a government propaganda organ. The Diane Rehm show on NPR presented us with a group of talking heads. Only one was informed, a professor at the Middle East Institute of the London School of Economics. The rest of the “experts” were the typical dumbshit Americans. They repeated all of the lies. “Russia is attacking everyone except ISIS.” How can there be anyone but ISIS to attack when the US general overseeing the area recently told Congress that “only 5” of our trained “rebels” remained? Yet the myth of “moderate rebels” is kept alive by these liars.

“The refugees are fleeing the brutal Assad.” Notice that it is always Assad who is brutal, not ISIS which has cut out opponents hearts and eaten them and routinely cuts off peoples heads and commits the most atrocious atrocities. Here we have “experts” blaming Assad. The “experts” said that the refugees are fleeing from Assad not from ISIS. The refugee problem is Assad’s fault, not the faut of ISIS. It is all Assad’s fault because he doesn’t give up and turn Syria over to Washington’s ISIS henchmen.

There was no acknowledgement from the “experts” that ISIS is a Washington creation or that until the Paris attack Washington was strongly backing ISIS with both words and weapons against the Russian air attacks that caught both Washington and ISIS off guard. This is extraordinary considering the fact that US responsibility for ISIS was acknowledged on TV by the former head of the Pentagon’s Defense Intelligence Agency. https://www.rt.com/usa/312050-dia-flynn- islamic-state/

Gullible Americans who give money to NPR are supporting lies and propaganda that have resulted in the deaths and dislocation of millions of peoples and that are leading to WWIII. The Western media whores are complicit in the crimes, because they fail their responsibility to hold government accountable and make it impossible for valid information to reach people. The Western media serves as cheerleaders for death and destruction.

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#41. To: Cynicom (#39)

I think you have a media bias point of view cyni...the russain aren't scared of Turkey. They are trying to avoid a nuclear escalation with NATO so as to avoid M.A.D. That said , turkish fuel trucks buying isis oil are no longer safe inside syria. It was in the news today. Turkey says it was humanitarian aid trucks. Russia says terrorist accomplices buying isis oil are also terrorists. Therefore fair game. Turkey really fucked up. Not Russia.

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2015-11-26   12:39:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: titorite (#41)

I think you have a media bias point of view cyni.

Perhaps...

Perhaps you understand why Russia considers the US as their best ally?

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   13:52:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Cynicom (#42)

That ain't stopping them from targeting Isis oil shipments.

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2015-11-26   13:54:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: titorite (#43)

That ain't stopping them from targeting Isis oil shipments.

Will Russians take care NOT to go near Turkish airspace?

Or will Pooty continue to nibble around the edges?

I wager the border will avoided at all costs.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   14:14:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Cynicom (#44)

I wager the border will avoided at all costs.

There's no need to provoke the Turks at the border. Just stay in Syria and blast away.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2015-11-26   14:21:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Lod (#45)

There's no need to provoke the Turks at the border. Just stay in Syria and blast away.

Pooty has pushed for years. This time he pushed in the wrong place and got himself bitten but good on the world stage.

China and the US are snickering in their shoes.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   14:53:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Cynicom (#46)

Erdogan's pronouncements are just as dopey as are Barry's.

I'm tired of the world's crap.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2015-11-26   15:23:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Lod (#45)

Joel Skousen of World Affairs Brief, who is a decorated Vietnam-era combat pilot and as hard-assed Russo-skeptic as they come, thinks that the Su-24 shoot was a provocation by us to get the Russians to do exactly what they have done: ordered fighter escorts into the air to accompany air-to-ground missions.

The reason for this is that while the Russians have tons of data on our ECMs - electronic countermeasures - obtained in the course of our Iraq & Afghan operations, we have very little on theirs. Skousen said on Rense that no one should to be surprised if there are attempts over the next couple of weeks to get the Russians to light up their onboard radars and other stuff over Syria. If more high altitude sparring takes place in the near future, this may be the reason why.

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2015-11-26   15:27:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: randge (#48)

The reason for this is that while the Russians have tons of data on our ECMs - electronic countermeasures - obtained in the course of our Iraq & Afghan operations, we have very little on theirs.

Having been immersed in ECM for several years militarily, I would wager that assertion as false and baseless.

War is NOT a speculators game. Either you know or you do not know and the loser is the one that came up short.

My first NSA briefing was a shocker. We came away speechless.

All out war painted for you, with your life in question, is a view into the real world.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   15:48:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Cynicom (#49)

Whatever your professional and/or life experiences may be, Cyni, your use of uncircumcribed absolutes detracts from your credibility.

Happy Thanksgiving, friend.

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2015-11-26   16:03:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: randge (#50)

I admit to not being TV educated.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   16:21:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Cynicom (#51)

Enjoy your holiday.

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2015-11-26   16:36:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Cynicom (#1)

you are proof that wisdom does not old age bestow.


I used to be in a hurry, then I figured out I was just getting nowhere fast.

IRTorqued  posted on  2015-11-26   18:00:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: randge (#48)

Skousen said on Rense that no one should to be surprised if there are attempts over the next couple of weeks to get the Russians to light up their onboard radars and other stuff over Syria. If more high altitude sparring takes place in the near future, this may be the reason why.

Knowing nothing about ECMs, this makes sense here.

Skousen is no lightweight.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2015-11-26   18:20:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: IRTorqued (#53)

Care to elaborate?

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   18:58:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Cynicom (#55) (Edited)

Well let's see if I can take a shot at it, .... Russia doesn't give a flip about turkey, turkey is changing their story up saying they did not know the planes were Russian , both Germany and the USA are pulling out their Patriot missiles systems from turkey.....

So yeah I would agree that all that bluster about the mighty bear being scared of the lying sniveling back stabbing turkey was just silliness. On par with turtle only he has a thicker shell and I hear women like baldness sometimes.

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2015-11-26   19:07:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: titorite (#56)

So yeah I would agree that all that bluster about the mighty bear being scared of the lying sniveling back stabbing turkey was just silliness.

Scared?

Hardly, the Russians have no reason to be afraid of Turkey,

Poot is playing in Turkeys sandbox, a long way from home.

Over the years, the Soviets shot down many of our intrusion aircraft, always in their backyard, no war nothing said.

Perhaps you recall Ike coining the term "plausible deniability" as a public lie to tell the American people?

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   19:17:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Cynicom (#57)

Perhaps you recall Ike coining the term "plausible deniability" as a public lie

I recall the term, but did not know it was Ike that coined it. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2015-11-26   19:25:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Cynicom (#57)

Was that in response to the U-2 flights, or something else? thanks.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2015-11-26   19:27:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: BTP Holdings (#58)

The US and Brits began overflying Russia before the end of WWII.

Patton and many others were well aware of the long haul intentions of Stalin.

Ike would authorize overflights but wanted a patent lie that could be given Americans, a lie that """could""" have some tiny shred of truth to it. Plausible deniability came out of it.

I lost friends that were caught over Russia. Russians shot them down, said nothing publicly, our military said they were missing over the Pacific on a "routine training flight". It was all a lie.

If you have time, on internet, google Capt. Harold Austin B-47 caught in Russian overflight. Its all there for anyone caring to see what the real world is like.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   19:36:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Lod (#59)

Was that in response to the U-2 flights, or something else? thanks.

At time of U2 yes.

However we were running many other flights over Russia and China before the U2.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   19:38:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Cynicom (#61)

Thanks.

Always good to learn that some memory banks are still functioning.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2015-11-26   19:44:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Ada (#0)

Tsar Peter [Putin's favorite Russian leader ] used to say: "Don't trust the three: don't trust a woman, don't trust a Turk, and don't trust a non-drinker."

fortruss.blogspot.com/201...say-never-trust-turk.html

I'm with Tsar Peter on #2. Turkey has had its nose out of joint since Russia recognized the Armenian genocide, coupled with Pooty Poot bombing ISIS ( and Turkmen) camps in Syria.

Imho, Turkey is lying - Turkey nailed the Russian plane to send a message to Putin to back off, thinking that as a member of NATO it had cover. Turkey may be over estimating its strategic importance and treaties are like the US Constitution these days.

thehill.com/blogs/pundits...ay-have-a-strong-case-in- turkish-shootdown

scrapper2  posted on  2015-11-26   20:05:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Cynicom (#60)

Well that explains everything. My condolences sir.

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2015-11-26   20:10:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: scrapper2 (#63)

Oh, Turkey is atrocious and always has been -- the eternal world headquarters of brutal Islamic supremacism. Can anybody think of a single appearance by Turkey on the historical stage that wasn't bloody and tyrannical?

The idea of admitting it to any European club is sheer madness. IT IS IN ASIA and it shows.

I HATE Turkey and don't care who knows it.

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2015-11-26   20:11:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: titorite (#64)

I attended their memorial services at NSA Washington, back when Clinton finally admitted they had been shot down by Russians long ago.

The real world, conducted in the shadows goes on.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-26   20:20:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: Cynicom (#66)

Anybody trusts this governent to give 'em the right time of day, I'm sorry for 'em. We must reach the young and warn them of how DC, the bankers and fatcats want to throw their lives away.

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2015-11-26   20:22:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: Cynicom (#66)

My grand father was a flying tiger. Later went into to apollo program and did capsule test drops. He flew em and dropped em. A full carrer man.

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2015-11-26   21:39:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: NeoconsNailed (#67)

Hey nn..... speaking of education, do you watch first amendment audits on youtube?

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2015-11-26   21:46:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Cynicom (#55)

sure, you are an old fool.


I used to be in a hurry, then I figured out I was just getting nowhere fast.

IRTorqued  posted on  2015-11-27   8:15:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: titorite (#69) (Edited)

Wow, never heard of 'em! Watching the 1st one

www.youtube.com/watch? v=P_vfmEfp1KQ

Oh, GOD, by the end it's nothing but a test of police RACISM. I can't take it any longer. So fat today I've already had to leave a comment on a Live25 vid about this neurosis and put up with a spitload of it watching a documentary on Anonymous. Yankees know nothing but responding to media mass media stimuli EVEN WHEN THEY THINK THEY'RE EXPOSING AND COUNTERACTING IT!

The audits are a great concept if they're handled right. IMHO, that would start with a paper trail in advance of the first sortie as to what's allowed and under what code section, but I always was rather particular. Shoot me soem good cases please.

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2015-11-27   8:29:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: IRTorqued (#70)

Are you a paragon of wisdom yourself?

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2015-11-27   8:30:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: titorite (#68)

My grand father was a flying tiger.

Then he was a "volunteer".

The military, with the wink of an eye, allowed pilots to volunteer to resign their commission, join AVG for pay and fight the Japanese. After war breakout Gen. Chennault and men were absorbed by Army Air Corp.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-27   8:53:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: IRTorqued (#70)

sure, you are an old fool.

Most here have long been aware of that fact.

However why not overlook personal dislikes and add something to the conversation???

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-27   9:01:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Cynicom (#74)

Pay him (her?) no mind!

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2015-11-27   10:04:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Cynicom (#32)

Wrong, still.

Rules of engagement. Heads up if PLANNED.

Dont tell me the Turks PLANNED to send the Russki jet into their air space?

Good heavens....

It's easy to jabber and jeer at others' speculation here when you avoid communicating in articulated sentences. You just hammer away with one liners.

Nobody made the absurd suggestion that "the Turks PLANNED to send the Russki jet into their air space."

If you have been following things you'll know that the Turkmen (who speak a Turkic dialect pretty much intelligible by other Turks) are cooperating with Erdogan and the organ eaters of ISIS to make life miserable for both the Kurds and the Assad government right belly up against the Turkish border.

These bastards are a nasty piece of work, and like ISIS fighters, they need the shit stomped out of them, which the Russians were doing with air-to-ground work.

Hell, I don't propose to know if this was a RUSSIAN PROVOCATION or a TURKISH PROVOCATION or an AMERICAN PROVOCATION. There are reasons for speculating on any number of hypotheses here, and nobody here can PROVE nothin'. It's a DISCUSSION after all.

I'd say though that IF this were a NATO job, this would have been the perfect opportunity to put it in play with the Russians operating a razor's edge off the Turkish border.

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2015-11-27   11:41:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: StraitGate (#34)

What kind of sauce, if any, do you all put on your crab cakes?

I think the missus used some mayo, lemon juice, chili powder and cayenne, with just a dab of Dijon mustard, and a small sprinkle of chopped chives and parsley in the crab cake sauce. But you really don't need much of anything to top them off with, AFAIC.

Crab cakes were great for Thanksgiving. We went light on the kitchen drudgery this year, drank whiskey and watched the bloody Cowboys get the crap stomped out of them.

"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan

randge  posted on  2015-11-27   11:57:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: randge (#77)

Thanks. That all sounds good. I'm glad there wasn't any garlic involved.

StraitGate  posted on  2015-11-27   15:16:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: randge (#76)

It's easy to jabber and jeer at others' speculation here when you avoid communicating in articulated sentences. You just hammer away with one liners.

Consider this...

Just perhaps much or most of the "speculation" offered here on the 4um is so asinine, so childish, it is not worth my time, nor anyones time, in any attempt of refutation.

Making such personal is a definite indication of inferiority of intellect and character.

Posters feeling the need for personal attack, rather than adding to the conversation, expose themselves for feeling some inadequacy.

If one does not suffer fools easily, I suggest they NOT read my postings.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-11-27   15:32:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Cynicom (#73)

That would be correct. He was full of that shawdow information that he could tell ya but then hed have to kill you. Retired as a lt colonel. Biggest funeral I ever seen.

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2015-11-27   16:04:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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