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Title: Did LaVoy Finicum ever oppose the "tyranny" of the state stealing people's kids? NO, he fed off of it. CPS is EVIL.
Source: .
URL Source: http://libertyfight.com/2016/tyranny-of-foster-parents.html
Published: Feb 13, 2016
Author: .
Post Date: 2016-02-13 13:00:52 by Artisan
Keywords: None
Views: 292
Comments: 22

State CPS Agents Seize Family's Kids With No Due Process, Outraged Armed Father Seizes Children Back From Foster Parents

The facetious headline above is made up, yet not to say unwarranted in our current society. This is to make a point.

Just a few more thoughts on the whole Oregon fiasco. This isn't to demonize Lavoy Finicum or to say he deserved to die for his acts- I think the whole ordeal could have been handled much better and non violently, on both sides. I am going to 'dare' offer a critical analysis of someone who's been martyred and lionized by the 'patriot' community.

"SHOOT ME! SHOOT ME! SHOOT ME!" is what Finicum shouted to cops, according to his friend and witness Shawna Cox... this after he sped towards the roadblock, crashed and jumped out of the vehicle. I don't think this guy is some hero like many do. He acted like a maniac. According to Cox, Ryan Payne, a passenger in Finicum's vehicle, was arguing with him to stop the truck but Finicum refused. The Oregon newspaper which interviewed Cox after Finicum's death reported

"Finicum's determination to push on, though, triggered an argument with Payne. Payne had participated in the 2014 standoff with federal agents in Nevada over Cliven Bundy's disputed grazing privileges. Cox said Payne grew increasingly agitated, urging Finicum to stop.,, Payne told the group the police "mean business" and stepped out of the pickup, shouting at officers that there were women inside. He was soon in police custody, while Finicum yelled at police that he wanted to go see the sheriff, referring to Palmer."

Finicum had emphasized previously that he was not going to prison. Finicum basically committed suicide by cop. I think he used gravely (literally) bad judgment & failed to respect human life- his own- which belongs to God, not just us.

As the Catholic Catechism teaches on The Fifth Commandment, Thou Shalt Not Kill,

Suicide

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law. Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

Furthermore, the Hammonds, the father & son in prison whom all these protesters were complaining about didn't even support their acts. "Neither Ammon Bundy nor anyone within his group/organization speak for the Hammond Family," the Hammonds' lawyer W. Alan Schroeder wrote to Harney County, Oregon Sheriff David Ward. The whole thing didn't make much sense to me. There were distinct differences between the Oregon case and the Bundy ranch situation in Nevada, Waco and Ruby Ridge, as libertarian icon G. Edward Griffin pointed out in early January. Griffin had correctly warned "If continued on this course, a bloodbath is assured."

One more thing. Finicum admitted in the past that he made his living NOT as a rancher, but as a "foster parent" to dozens of kids over the years. Did he ever mind or oppose the "tyranny" of the state stealing people's kids? Which is at the very least equally egregious, one could even argue infinitely worse than stealing their lands? No, he fed on that government teat like a leaeh welfare recipient enabler. I find that whole so-called "child protective services" system very evil & revolting, & I've seen how they destroy families. I suppose Finicum is lucky he never came across an armed zealot who was righteously pissed that the state stole their kid and gave the kid to Finicum. I'm Not too impressed with all these Mormon cultists.

The tweet below shows all the bullet holes in Finicum's vehicle. This just emphasizes how irresponsible his actions were. All of those people with him could have easily lost their lives.

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#1. To: Artisan (#0)

Furthermore, the Hammonds, the father & son in prison whom all these protesters were complaining about didn't even support their acts.

On this point, I don't think their support is morally required. An injustice against one member of society that goes unchallenged is arguably a harm to all of society. And the Hammonds clearly saw it as an injustice to them, even if they graciously desired no harm to others result from it.

Pinguinite  posted on  2016-02-13   13:26:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Artisan (#0)

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

I don't subscribe to Catholic doctrine, but nitpicking this....

First it says God gave life to us. But then it says God "entrusted" life to us, that we are not owners of what he gave us, but stewards.

If I give you something, it's yours to do with as you please.

But if we are only stewards of the life we have, then it's not really right to say God gave life to us. Is it?

The way I see things, the lives we have do belong to us, and our responsibility for it is to ourselves. Suicide is a moral wrong, if done in the context of refusing to face up to our reason for being alive. (Laying down your life to save another would technically be suicide, but for a just and acceptable cause). And there is nothing that can be taken away from a person that God cannot restore. Nothing.

Pinguinite  posted on  2016-02-13   14:04:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Pinguinite (#2)

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

I understand your point differentiating between 'given' and 'entrusted.'

I think it's a matter of semantics because while God does gift us with life, with it comes serious responsibilities and it is not only ours to dispose of, as 2280 explains. God is in us, our body is the temple of God., which is why the church also teaches not to abuse the body thru destructive means, drug abuse, gluttony, sloth, adultery, fornication, etc.

(I just hope that NN does not see this thread. :-( LoL

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2016-02-13   14:45:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Pinguinite (#1)

On this point, I don't think their support is morally required. An injustice against one member of society that goes unchallenged is arguably a harm to all of society. And the Hammonds clearly saw it as an injustice to them, even if they graciously desired no harm to others result from it.

that's a good point but I don't think their protest or goals were well thought out. as G Edward griffin points out, occupying a place that is considered federal is quite different than having a standoff defending your own property.

I remember meeting Griffin in 2007 at a ron paul rally in so. calif. and I asked him on video what he thought if the ed and Elaine brown standoff which was going on at that time . he enthusiastically replied "I SALUTE THEM."

They were on their own property, (which coincidentally, was auctioned by the feds a few months back.)

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2016-02-13   14:52:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Artisan (#4)

that's a good point but I don't think their protest or goals were well thought out. as G Edward griffin points out, occupying a place that is considered federal is quite different than having a standoff defending your own property.

True, but that is a separate issue entirely.

I am also of the sentiment that it was not the right time/place/opportunity for such a stand.

On the other hand, who am I to judge? Hindsight is one thing, foresight another. And the fact that it made national news is arguably an accomplishment.

What would you think if a bunch of guys got armed to fend off a gun confiscation at a particular warehouse. And what if the year was 1776.

Pinguinite  posted on  2016-02-13   15:13:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Pinguinite (#5)

On the other hand, who am I to judge? Hindsight is one thing, foresight another. And the fact that it made national news is arguably an accomplishment.

yeah, I don't have a problem with what they did, other than its sad when this guy is lionized for getting killed so needlessly. I believe his life was worth more than that, even if he didn't. I don't think such actions should be viewed as heroic or something to strive for.

these guys didn't hurt anyone, as far as I know, and they seem like pretty good sincere people. but now they are all headed to the federal pen for five years, ironically just like the hammonds who they were complaining about. and what has changed? if anything the feds seem emboldened by this fiasco, imo. the land grabs will go on as usual. and even the elder bundy was arrested on old charges as he headed to OR. up until this point, cliven's situation had been a great victory and an in your face F YOU to the feds. not anymore.

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2016-02-13   20:34:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Artisan (#6)

but now they are all headed to the federal pen for five years, ironically just like the hammonds who they were complaining about. and what has changed? if anything the feds seem emboldened by this fiasco, imo.

Don't forget LeRoy Schweitzer and the Montana Freemen. Now there is some real history for you. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2016-02-13   20:38:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Artisan (#0) (Edited)

Well this is what a tyranny looks like. The needless death, the disregard for decency and rights, the break down of civil society, its all been done before amd its happening again. The cops didnt have to kill, suicide by cop is a lie. Its a lie man. It is a lie, .... a modern mainstream cop protecting lie. The coulda beat em up. They coulda used their other options. They choose murder because they have all been taught and trained that they are allowed to kill anyone they want in the name of the law and thats not suicide, that legalized murder.

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2016-02-13   20:47:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: titorite (#8)

when anyone acts like finicum did around cops, speeding towards the cop roadblock and getting out flailing his arms, they're gonna die quick. it was very crazy and stupid what he did, unless, like he said, he wasn't going to prison. why did the other people surrender peacefully, including ryan payne who demanded finucim stop the truck, without being sniped? probably because they didn't demand it. it was a pointless needless death.

his choice of actions brought it on himself.

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2016-02-13   21:42:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Artisan (#9)

his choice of actions brought it on himself.

The same could be said of the Colonists at Breeds Hill, they died, brought it on themselves.

They were of the three per centers. We must NOT have anyone that goes against government.

Cynicom  posted on  2016-02-13   22:16:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Artisan (#6)

up until this point, cliven's situation had been a great victory and an in your face F YOU to the feds. not anymore.

In any war, setbacks are part of the process, particularly for the underdog.

Not that this is a "war" per se. But it's essentially a situation where both sides are trying to get what they want for a cost they see as acceptable.

The feds run the risk of allowing the protesters garner too much public sympathy.

Pinguinite  posted on  2016-02-13   22:49:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Cynicom (#10)

We must NOT have anyone that goes against government.

if "going against government" means you act in a way that will get you sniped by amped-up Israeli-trained police, then yeah it's prudent not to do that or you'll be pushing daisies real quick.

what "revolutionary change", exactly, did finicum enact by getting sniped?

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2016-02-14   9:16:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: titorite (#8)

have all been taught and trained that they are allowed to kill anyone they want in the name of the law

that's exactly right, which is why anyone with common sense who values their life will be very prudent in these situations.

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2016-02-14   9:19:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Artisan (#12)

what "revolutionary change", exactly, did finicum enact by getting sniped?

TRYING to awaken Americans that are so afraid they do not even DARE put up a billboard in protest to this government.

A cowardly lot we are, even find fault with those that speak up.

Ninety seven per centers we are. Whine, snivel and wring our hands and then find fault with those that make a stand.

Cowardly lot we are.

Cynicom  posted on  2016-02-14   9:22:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Cynicom, christine (#14)

you sound like one of those anarchist cop-haters. I'm surprised at your response.

it doesn't make someone 'cowardly' to see how insane and unwise it is to scream at cops 'shoot me shoot me shoot me' after charging their roadblock. that is looney tunes territory.

would you really scream at a swat team to kill you?

if so, that is very sad and severely disturbed.

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2016-02-14   9:29:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Artisan, Christine, All (#15)

you sound like one of those anarchist cop-haters. I'm surprised at your response.

One has to be careful about using the word...you...

It is an accusatory word, far too often misused.

Nowhere is the word "cops" mentioned in any venue.

One of my ancestors died on opening day of the Revolution, a Dr. Joseph Warren. He was commissioned as a Major General to lead the fight rather than George Washington. Instead he died as a private on opening day of the Revolutionary War, a war fought by just three per cent of the Colonists.

The others???? They sat back and sniped and complained about those that fought.

History is an interesting subject, rarely visited by most.

Cynicom  posted on  2016-02-14   9:47:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Cynicom (#14)

Whine, snivel and wring our hands and then find fault with those that make a stand.

the hammonds, the very guys who this case was supposedly about, wanted nothing to do with the 'militia' who took over a bird sanctuary. the hammonds are in fed pen for five more years.

who were the occupiers taking a stand for? the two guys who wanted nothing to do with them?

what did the 25 people arrested accomplish besides joining the two hammonds who wanted nothing to do with them?

speaking of "Whine, snivel and wring our hands." common sense and wise tactics seem to have gone out the window in favor of completely irrational, mindless emotionalism. cheering guys who get sniped by cops and pretending theyre 'heroes'.

its just like those mesmerized like 7th grade girls over politicians. looks like people need 'a hero to save them, to save the day'.

it looks like the supposed opposition to corrupt govt has descended into lunacy. this is going to be an entertaining year for sure.

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2016-02-14   9:54:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Cynicom (#16)

One has to be careful about using the word...you...

It is an accusatory word, far too often misused.

yeah I know, but you used the word 'we ' and 'our' three or four times, so I was responding.

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2016-02-14   9:56:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Artisan (#18)

Check out the use of the word "you" in any dictionary.

The terms we and our are "all inclusive" the word "you" is accusatory and derogatory in most usage, therefore, the word should be used with care and caution.

Dictionaries explain it very well.

Cynicom  posted on  2016-02-14   10:03:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Artisan, Christine, All (#18)

One simple example for use of word YOU....

When trying to find common ground, defensiveness can be a massive obstacle to understanding.

And nothing can raise defenses in communication faster than the word “you.”

The word “you” can be empowering or destructive. When used with positive language, a person can be built up, feel seen, appreciated and loved. It is when used with anger, frustration and negativity that “you” becomes one of the most harmful words ever. “You” can put a loved one in a cage of perceptions, and can be a judge, jury and executioner. Often times “you” can smack of projection, and when used falsely, can cut deeply and undermine trust.

The word you is a labeling mechanism. “You are this way,” “You are that way.” This smacks of judgment, blame and communicates aggression.

The word you is accusatory. “You did this and that.” And while whatever was done may be true or false, this will always raise defenses. Nobody wants to be accused, especially falsely.

The word you is blaming and shaming. “You never listen.” “You are thoughtless.” And while saying something like that may be true at times, it is never true at all times.

The word you cuts. “You are ugly. You are not a woman. You are not a man.” It can undermine a person’s self-esteem and erode their image when used over and over again.

“You” is often a fighting word and in heated conversation, will always create defensive reactions.

The word you can be harmful in many more ways. It really depends on the situation. It can be liberating, yet more often than not the word you will only cause a person to be defensive. The person who can surrender their defenses and be vulnerable is rare. So it is better to not raise defenses and take responsibility for personal feelings with the liberating word, I.

Cynicom  posted on  2016-02-14   10:11:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Cynicom (#20)

well ive seen your 'the' (snicker) explanation before, but this is actually the best explanation that.. has been given.. by... nevermind.

what .... say actually makes sense, thanks for sharing.

"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28

Artisan  posted on  2016-02-14   13:03:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Artisan (#21)

The word "you" can be "laudatory", neutral or "accusatory".

Long ago, being a very poor student, I was told this... If YOU keep your mouth shut, YOUR eyes and ears open, YOU might learn something.

In that instance, "you" was neutral, as they could have said, "you are stupid", which even though correct, was accusatory, they not knowing for sure if I was stupid or not.

That was about the only thing I ever learned about grammar, speech etc etc.

Someone told me once, dummy up, people will never know for sure you are stupid.

Cynicom  posted on  2016-02-14   14:19:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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