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Title: In the Donetsk People's Republic,(Ukraine's East) It's Impossible to Tell What's Real
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://engforum.pravda.ru/index.php ... impossible-to-tell-whats-real/
Published: Dec 8, 2016
Author: Jake_Hanrahan/Started by USC
Post Date: 2016-12-08 08:24:54 by Tatarewicz
Keywords: None
Views: 54
Comments: 9

Vice/PMF... In March of 2014, Russian-backed separatists began to forcibly take control of large areas of east Ukraine. They started riots, invaded government buildings and set up roadblocks. They were opposed to the Ukraine revolution, favouring the ousted pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych. With him gone and the country moving towards Europe, the separatists took up arms.

With the help of Russian-supplied firepower such as tanks and Grad missiles, the separatists fought off Ukrainian troops. The insurgency turned into a full-scale war. At that time, the Ukrainians were poorly trained and ill equipped. After nearly three years of conflict, though, they've grown battle hardened and have fought to regain ground. They've pushed the separatists back to their stronghold in the Donbass – a large coal-mining district that borders Russia to the east. Now, however, with the conflict's second official ceasefire underway, both sides are dug in. This has turned the war into a slow but constant battle from the trenches.

As neither side advances, the two self-declared separatist states of the Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republic are working on gaining legitimacy. They declared independence in 2014 when the conflict started. Despite the violence displacing around 1.7 million people they don't view themselves as separatists, but as liberators, and their politics is infused by nostalgia for Stalinism.

The Donetsk People's Republic (DNR) is the most prominent separatist group, and they've set up a state of the same name. They don't offer up access to the region as often as they used to – and they've banned many journalists – but they let me in. They did so on the condition that I'd be allocated a minder for my stay.

I travelled there with the help of a local fixer. It took around three hours in total from Ukraine-held territory. After driving past the last Ukraine barrier and through a narrow no man's land, we approached the entrance to the Donetsk People's Republic.

Concrete chicanes snaked through checkpoints made out of breeze blocks and rotting sandbags. Militants dressed in a jumble of green combat fatigues were standing around smoking, their rifles slung over their shoulders. There wasn't a set of matching camouflage between them. After border guards checked our accreditation we were waved past the checkpoints and into the heart of the DNR.

The city of Donetsk is pleasant enough. The roads are wide; there's lots of grass. However, all this is undone by the constant presence of gunmen. Militants could be seen roaming around everywhere: at the bus stop, at the cigarette stall, at the cafes. DNR propaganda is scattered around the city centre. The garish blue and yellow of the Ukraine flag has been replaced with the black, blue and red of the separatists'. There's a 20-foot mural of a separatist fighter holding a little boy who's releasing a dove. Lots of the number plates have been replaced with unofficial DNR ones. The nearly-Russian-but-not-Russian flags hang everywhere. The separatists have gone all out, even renaming McDonalds "Don Mac" – as in Donetsk Mac.

We drove to the Ramada, one of only two hotels still open in Donetsk, where I was due to meet the DNR minders. Or "guides", as they called them.

In the restaurant I met Janus Putkonen, the head of the DNR's foreign media communications. He couldn't shake hands properly as his right hand was wrapped in a bandage with a splint. "I was out drinking with some comrades at the sauna," he explained. "We were dancing around and I slipped over and completely crushed my hand."

Janus Putkonen is a big man. He's 42 and stands at about 6'3", with broad shoulders and slicked back hair. He had a small entourage of DNR affiliates with him: Maria, his assistant/translator/girlfriend, a guy with an anvil head who didn't speak and Vittorio Rangeloni, a 24-year-old Italian communist who had spent his life savings of €3,000 to move to the DNR. There is a small stream of European communists moving to Donetsk. Putkonen was one of the first. He's from Finland and doesn't speak Russian or Ukrainian, nor has he tried to learn. He made his way to the DNR shortly after the war started. "I wanted to see what was happening for myself," he said. "I saw that this place was giving power back to the people, so I stayed."

Putkonen eventually became the first foreigner to gain "citizenship" in the DNR. His role there seemed murky. Describing himself as "a Soviet", he now heads up the DNR's official press service, DONi News – a separatist, English-language propaganda outlet. It's anti-Western, anti-facts and completely pro-Russian.

Putkonen displayed contempt for Europe. Stating that while he loved his own country (he had a Finnish flag badge on the lapel of his suit), the government there was his enemy. They'd "failed" him. A former soap actor and journalist, he somehow found a place for himself in a rogue separatist state.

"Tomorrow we will pick you up at 9AM at the front of the hotel," he said. "We'll take you around. We will accommodate you."

He checked his watch, stood up and awkwardly tried to shake hands. "Welcome to the free world," he said. They had to leave. It was nearing the 11PM curfew and they had places to be.

The next day I waited for the DNR minders outside on the steps of the Ramada. Two cars pulled up. Putkonen hopped out of one. He was dressed in combat fatigues with a black cap and sunglasses. Two others followed him. They were also in combat gear but were armed with semi-automatic rifles. Unlike Putkonen, who looked like he was playing dress-up, they held themselves in a way that suggested they were trained. They didn't speak much. Vittorio Rangeloni would join me everywhere. He too was wearing full combat fatigues, with matching knock-off camouflage Air Max 90s; €20 at the Donetsk market, he said.

The first stop on our tour was a small village called Veseloye on the outskirts of Donetsk, where I was told we'd meet locals. There, we met Lubov Pugachenko, a sweet old lady whose house had been shelled. Inside there was a hole in the ceiling where a mortar round had blasted through the roof. The floorboards were splintered and scorched and all the windows had been shattered.

"Gypsies live better than us," she said. "My kitchen was destroyed, too. A huge bomb took the roof off Lubov and her husband now live in a small outhouse on the grounds of their destroyed home. The ceilings were low and the rooms were small, but she'd made it cosy enough. In her makeshift kitchen Lubov prepared fruit and a homemade compote drink. "[Before the war] we were like brothers and sisters with the Ukrainians," she explained, "but now we're enemies. We hate them, because they brought the war to us. They started to shoot at us." Janus and Vittorio nodded and grinned.

Lubov had a local DNR newspaper handy on her worktop. On the front was a picture of Alexander Zakharchenko, the prime minister of the DNR. "He's the leader," said Lubov. "He's very good. He's helping us a lot." She took another look at the paper and gasped. "Oh, it isn't Zakharchenko!"

"—It is him, it is him," said Rangeloni, quickly interrupting.

"Is it? He looks so ugly in this picture. You brought me a paper with an ugly picture of him."

Everyone laughed, seemingly ignorant of the fact Lubov had accidentally revealed she was unsure of what Zakharchenko looked like. She'd also let slip that the minders had brought the paper to her.

En route to our next destination I asked Rangeloni if the reaction from Lubov was representative of civilians in the DNR. "Yeah, you could enter into any house and they'd say the same thing," he said. "The DNR is just defending their land. People just want to live in peace with the right to speak Russian, because it's Russian land."

Rangeloni was quite romantic about the DNR. He'd grown up in Italy, with a Russian mother who taught him that the Soviet Union was a great place. He'd been indoctrinated with communism from an early age, and jumped at the chance to move to the DNR once it declared independence. He said he was there to spread the truth of their situation, even if he did constantly deny that the Russians were directly involved.

We travelled next to Donetsk Airport, an important battleground throughout the Ukraine war. As Vittorio said, "Whoever controls Donetsk Airport controls the entrance to the city." Before the second battle for the airport, in September of 2014, and its fall in January 2015, it was the last part of Donetsk still held by Ukrainian forces. Since that particularly brutal round of fighting, it's been in the hands of the separatists. Donetsk Airport is a wasteland of gnarled metal and crumbling concrete. Bent rebar pokes out of every structure left standing. The ground is littered with shrapnel, bullet casings and rotting insulation. We went there to meet with an infamous group of separatist fighters known as the Sparta Battalion. Their commander was a Russian named "Motorola", who once claimed in a recorded phone conversation with the Kyiv Post to have personally executed 15 Ukrainian prisoners of war. It's believed that Motorola, who did national service with the Russian military, was sent to the DNR to fight after being arrested for joyriding in Rostov, west Russia. Though Motorola wasn't there, his fighters were. They were well disciplined, well armed and hostile. (Two weeks after meeting Motorola's Sparta Battalion, he was killed when a bomb went off in the lift of his apartment block. It's believed his head was blown off in the assassination.)

A young Russian fighter from Volgograd took us on a guided tour of the ruined airport. His name was Sergey Lim. He wore dark combat fatigues with his hood up and his face covered. His body armour was loaded with extra magazines, a radio, a knife and a tourniquet. We passed rusted remains of tanks and APCs, through mounds of rubble and past flights of stairs that had no destination. Everything faded into the grey background of the destruction. Now in his early twenties, Lim claimed to have left his wife and child in Russia to come and fight for the DNR.

"At the moment we have a regular army in the area," he said. "There's no militia here any more. We're a military unit with commanders who give us orders, who provide us with weapons."

Which military was he talking about? He paused. "Everything is official now. We [the DNR] have an army corps."

The Sparta Battalion had Russian Ural trucks parked up, which are predominantly made for and used by the Russian Army.

metal support beam that led across a pit of debris about 15-feet below. Strewn among the concrete debris, a camouflage jacket and a pair of boots could be seen. Lim explained that the rotting corpses of Ukraine soldiers were down there. At the height of the war, the separatists had forced Ukraine POWs to dig out the bodies of their dead friends from the rubble. "The Ukrainians don't bother to collect them," said Lim.

We left the Sparta Battalion at the airport and pressed on to a frontline at Zaitseve. Here, the separatists had dug deep trenches. The fighters were ragtag, young and disorganised. Some wore tracksuits. They sat around picking at the dirt walls of their positions and chain-smoking. Their commander called himself Iron Man, "because my body is so full of shrapnel it sets the metal detector off at the airport".

Poking his head from a position, Iron Man looked through a pair of binoculars. "The Ukrainians will start firing soon. Their positions are about 300 meters away." He handed the binoculars to Rangeloni, who was no longer wearing the flak jacket or helmet he'd been wearing at Donetsk Airport.

After 15 minutes in the trenches, gunfire cracked in the near distance. The hollow boom of mortars could be heard, too. We all ducked. "See, we don't fire back," Iron Man said. "All our rifles are covered in oil because we don't use them."

While both sides are guilty of constantly breaking the ceasefire, OSCE (Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe) – an organisation that monitors the Donbass region – reports that most of the violations are started by the DNR.

The gunfire grew closer. Loud cracks above our heads. "It's them!" Iron Man said. "They're just trying to provoke us." We ran to an abandoned school used by the separatists as a makeshift base. During our 30 minutes pinned down in the school, roughly a dozen DNR militants took shelter there – none of them returned fire. No one seemed particularly bothered. Scrawled on a blackboard in chalk, someone had written "Ukrainians are faggots". With gunfire going off outside, Iron Man rested his rifle on the lid of an old piano and began to play a tune. Everyone laughed and clapped, especially Rangeloni.

On returning to the UK we showed footage of the skirmish in Zaitseve to open source investigators from citizen journalism website Bellingcat, which has contributed to exposing Russia's involvement in the Ukraine conflict from the start, playing a key role in the MH17 investigation. They checked the co-ordinates of the trenches we'd been in and the positions of the Ukrainian lines, and said it was possible that the separatists were actually facing their own positions while claiming the Ukrainian army was firing on them. What's more, in exactly the same spot outside the school, France24 News recently caught the separatists on camera saying they would dress up in Ukrainian uniforms to fool the press. It seems highly likely that not only did the DNR minders set up orchestrated interviews with civilians, but also faked a gunfight.

The separatists aligned with the DNR present themselves as freedom fighters, and while it's true there's some level of support for them, they never provided the chance to see that authentically – everything was set up, and the people running the tour weren't very good at hiding i There are mounds of evidence that the DNR is militarily assisted by Russia. Many Russian soldiers have been found fighting there (just without their uniforms), and tanks and heavy artillery has been seen crossing the border. There are also allegations, from Amnesty International and the UN, that that the DNR has committed war crimes, such as torture and extrajudicial killing. They're also, very clearly, limiting freedom of speech.

In the time spent in the DNR, it was never quite apparent what was real and

More from VICE:

http://www.vice.com/...ukraine-donetsk

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#2 [In the Donetsk People's Republic, It's Impossible to Tell What's Real: post #2] Ivan88


Poster Comment:

Ivan88 The guy who wrote that "news" is a hypocrite, speaking about the People of East Ukraine as if they are criminals like the nice legit US/Israeli/Saudi backed Nazi terrorists controlling the rest of what's left of Ukraine - sort of like the Lame Stream media is legit. Edited by Ivan88

Zharkov wirehaired said: "I don't buy it,i believe many Ukrainians are as one with Russians,the problem is with those Galician Nazis." I think that was probably true for many years, until it wasn't. If they liked each other as much as they should, Ukrainians wouldn't accept government orders to shoot at Russians and wreck Russian settlements there. If they were "one", their present government would have been toast a long time ago. It's a real tragedy that the Ukraine has so many problems some of which are caused by the Obama regime and globalist greed to control all of the continent. There was peace until Obama got elected.

USC Nikev said: "Most of the former USSR republics and satellites are wary of Russia, so perhaps the Russian people need to come to understand why this is so. And it can't all be explained by Western media, George Soros or other scapegoats. Just under the surface, yearnings for independence from Russian influence existed before the SU collapse." Adidasov, I see you're another fat troll. Let me tell you what will happen to America if other countries (Russia, China) will act as America. Russia and China will set very many non-governmental organizations in the United States, Canada, Mexico which will din into the heads the following thoughts: 1. America is to blame for everything: war, economic crises. 2. Canadians and Mexicans will begin to understand that U.S. stole not only a lot of their territories but natural resourses too. Mexico will require to return their ancestral territories. But the first to leave is Hawaii. 3. The Indians will require the United Nations to recognize the genocide and bring the multi-billion-dollar compensation. 4. Slavery also will be recognized as genocide. Compensation will be paid not only afroamericans but also to black Africa. 5. All countries which had suffered US aggressions, interventions will seek compensation. America will have to pay to Russia for intervention in 1918. 6. Under the protection of Russia, China, India the entire planet will arrested American property.

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#1. To: Tatarewicz (#0)

America is to blame for everything: war, economic crises. 2. Canadians and Mexicans will begin to understand that U.S. stole not only a lot of their territories but natural resourses too. Mexico will require to return their ancestral territories. But the first to leave is Hawaii. 3. The Indians will require the United Nations to recognize the genocide and bring the multi-billion-dollar compensation. 4. Slavery also will be recognized as genocide. Compensation will be paid not only afroamericans but also to black Africa. 5. All countries which had suffered US aggressions, interventions will seek compensation. America will have to pay to Russia for intervention in 1918. 6. Under the protection of Russia, China, India the entire planet will arrested American property.

========================================

How much acid did you drop before writing this?

U.S. Constitution - Article IV, Section 4: NO BORDERS + NO LAWS = NO COUNTRY

HAPPY2BME-4UM  posted on  2016-12-08   9:09:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: HAPPY2BME-4UM (#1)

These aren't Tatarewicz' words of course, but it's noteworthy that USC Nikev prefaces these remarks with

"Let me tell you what will happen to America if other countries (Russia, China) will act as America."

"Acting as America" means using our officials and their murky operatives and still murkier finance in stirring the shit and lighting fires in places like Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, and Yugoslavia to mention just a few.

If Russia and China could, I am sure that they would play the cards (numbered above) against us.

We have to make damned sure we don't. One good start is to stop inserting our noses where they damned well don't belong.

evahthang go' be aw-rite

randge  posted on  2016-12-08   11:48:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: randge (#2)

America is to blame for everything: war, economic crises. 2. Canadians and Mexicans will begin to understand that U.S. stole not only a lot of their territories but natural resourses too. Mexico will require to return their ancestral territories. But the first to leave is Hawaii. 3. The Indians will require the United Nations to recognize the genocide and bring the multi-billion-dollar compensation. 4. Slavery also will be recognized as genocide. Compensation will be paid not only afroamericans but also to black Africa. 5. All countries which had suffered US aggressions, interventions will seek compensation. America will have to pay to Russia for intervention in 1918. 6. Under the protection of Russia, China, India the entire planet will arrested American property.

==========================================

Looking down the 'TO-DO' list, I'm seeing nothing but agendas wanting to burn my house down, kill me, rape all the women I know, and take everything I have.

Did I miss anything?

U.S. Constitution - Article IV, Section 4: NO BORDERS + NO LAWS = NO COUNTRY

HAPPY2BME-4UM  posted on  2016-12-08   13:40:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: HAPPY2BME-4UM (#3)

Did I miss anything?

No, that about covers it.

Point being when you - or shall we say goons hired to do shit in your name - fuck around in others' neighborhoods, those others will try to stir the crap in your back yard.

If I was a US antagonist, these propaganda tacks would be on my to do list.

evahthang go' be aw-rite

randge  posted on  2016-12-08   14:23:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: randge (#2)

If Russia and China could,...they would play the cards ... against us.

Not likely China would resort to negative tactics like those of US, all of which are at the instigation of the illegal Israeli state, at least until it develops product markets in Africa and South America, to replace those in Trump-USA. They probably moved on the island bases just to preclude US from doing same.

USC and Nikev are separate posters on Pravda Forum and USC seems to id Nikev as Adidasov, latter appearing to be a Jew troll.as Milano indicates below but which Nikev denies. USC"s avatar reads: "I SUPPORT WHATEVER FOX NEWS TELLS ME TO" next to overlapping blue, white & red ribbon.

Additional thread posts:

Zharkov.... What does the Ukraine have in common with Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, among others?

In all of these countries, the US government wanted regime change. In these countries, the towns and villages were destroyed by fighting. In these countries, the US government spent billions of dollars to support terrorist groups. In these countries, US "advisors" magically appeared to train terrorists and direct their battles.

There are more things in common but these stand out to show it wasn't Russian history that started the wars. These deaths and nation-wide destruction can be attributed directly to specific US government officials. They have names, homes, jobs, assets, and they directed the disasters that ruined the lives of millions of people.

They can be prosecuted for instigating "crimes against humanity", war crimes, election tampering and fraud, so much more. And they can be prosecuted wherever they can be found if other governments are willing to do the right thing.

Mario Milano...

Kikev is the CNN hasbara toll of Pravda forums...the very miniscule amount of hasbara trolls Nem allows on here...you can bet that there is a whole heap of Israeli paid Khazar trolls waiting in line to be approved to be members on here...keep em waiting, one at a time Nem...awesome tactic to keep parasites out...just as good as Raid bug spray...or as in Jew speak, Zyclon B!

Nikev: Nemesis said....:

"There has been no aggressive behavior from Putin, ameriKKKKan garbage. It's because of Putin's great patience and forbearing that there has been no nuclear war after aggression and many acts of war committed by united snakes. Last one being the deliberate targeting of the Russian mobile hospital."

So go to hell with your lying bullshit. If you insist on lying, there can be no peace.

Regurgitating the lame stream western media shows total stupidity.

Would you prefer I refer to RuSSia in the manner that you do AmeriKKKa?

Perhaps I should have used a better descriptor than "aggressive". I am referring to the increased oppositional behavior Putin undertook in many areas.

To avoid repeating myself, this is a post I made a few weeks ago:

Quote:

I'm for a good, normal relationship between the American and Russian people. With a fresh US administration coming in power, it's time for rapprochement.

In the time period around the demise of the USSR, Gorbachev, Yeltsin and even Putin couldn't have been more approachable, showing sincerity and humility in seeking a new relationship with the world.

The revolutionary change in Russia came as a surprise to everyone. Their decision to come in "out of the cold" was certainly welcomed, but in the West an unspoken distrust lingered. Russia had been a threatening adversary for so long, and the West simply wasn't experiencing the watershed moment as in Russia, but reacting to it. The West needed time to take it all in.

So, when Russia said they wanted to "be a normal country" within the world community, the West helped that transition but also wondered if there would be an eventual reversal (such a hard transformation from totalitarianism to democracy; from enemy to friend).

And so, the West assisted Russia but also moved to help solidify these changes, including measures to help insure the newly-sovereign former republics were as cleanly separated as possible so as to make them less vulnerable to Russian reassertedness, should Moscow revert to hegemonistic ways. Most all of the former republics asked for this help.

Of course, this worried Russia. The new guy eager to join the group senses he's being kept at arms length while old acquaintances are whispering with the West. The country that set the changes in motion now feels encircled by wary neighbors.

After disbanding The Warsaw Pact, Russia witnessed seeming encroachment by NATO. But despite Russia's apprehension, the West was never going to invade, to seek conquest, or even to try to weaken Russia. The West, former Warsaw Pact members and former USSR republics merely intend to reduce their vulnerability to a potential threat of an aggressive bear.

Both sides have played a role in creating that which they feared. Russia, distrusting the West's influence in the former republics and NATO actions, criticizes this and feels the need to protect itself by re-arming; The West witnesses renewed belicosity from Russia along with military rebuilding.

Complicating this scenario was the Bush administration's decision to unilaterally invade Iraq, dismissing vocal France and Russia's (and most the rest of the world's) request that the US not act in haste. The US has a tendency to act arrogant at times, which does not work to its advantage. Gorbachev spoke of "triumphantilism"; China and Russia have bristled at condescending behavior many times.

However, there's good news despite of it all.

Once you're a ally of the United States, that behavior diminishes or disappears. Ask America's numerous friends all around the world, from Europe, to Japan, to Australia, and far and wide. America can be a good friend: the people are warm and generous, and their government can be inclusive and help in a time of need.

And so, now it's time for Russia to fully join the community of nations. America needs to be the one to step up, to reach out a hand to Russia. The Trump administration seems inclined to do just that.

It's time the US and the West consider Russia's interests when it acts, and better explains itself as a partner, especially when objectives differ, even when they must agree to disagree. And then, Russia need not worry that NATO is an existential threat. It should not be unthinkable that in time Russia be invited as a member of NATO or of a revised, more-inclusive security organization.

You see, what I'm saying is that Russia simply needs to realize America is NOT an existential threat, and accept the realities of the world -- including the fact that America has military bases and allies scattered throughout the globe, and will continue to.

Russia should also accept that America will be engaging with nations formerly in the Soviet bloc, and seek its own relationships without resorting to a militaristic confrontational stance.

Russia cannot win in the long run by reacting as if America is a military threat to them personally. It is not. America will not invade or attack Russia militarily anymore than it will India (for example). .

Edited by Nikev

Mario Milano Nikev said:

" Read what I explained in that previous thread I quoted. It is true NATO exists; it is true NATO's primary strategic foe had long been the USSR"

What is effing wrong with you...the USSR stopped existing in the 1990's..It is Russia now and the Russians want friendly relations with the USA, maybe because the USA and Russia are both Christian nations who knows, but the f*cking lunatics called AIPAC that will only ever allow blackmailed pedos to be allowed in congress hate (ordered to hate) that idea that Russia and America should be friends....It is so stupid that those retard morons in washington and the western Jew media are for ever trying to start a war with Russia for no reason....Only Jews like yourself could be behind such stupid moronic shit like that.

Nikev Mario Milano said:

" Only Jews like yourself..."

By the way, I'm not Jewish, nor even Pro-Israel. ;)

Tatarewicz  posted on  2016-12-09   6:59:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: All (#5)

AIPAC that will only ever allow blackmailed pedos to be allowed in congress

Funny, clever observation, albeit exaggerated, all the way from Down Under; likely possibility to make sure they don't stray, what with a President with a questionable birth certificate.

Tatarewicz  posted on  2016-12-09   7:07:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: All (#6)

Additional post by Zharkov:

Nikov (now resigned & banned from Pravda Forum) said earlier:

"Russia, by not resuming oppositional behavior, by its government not fear-mongering among its populace, will attain its long-term objective."

This assumes that Russia has been "the problem" all along, and fails to consider that it has been the Obama and Bush regimes which caused much of the world's problems. What this comment shows is that the government media campaign to smear Russia has been somewhat effective in influencing the beliefs of the general population.

Take globalism for example - if the US had not accepted the idea of a global government, would there still be wars against uncooperative nations? Wasn't it Hitler whose goal was a global government under the Nazi regime? And who could guarantee that another Hitler-like dictator would never be appointed to rule the world under global government? Why would a supposedly free, constitutional government like the Obama regime, risk losing sovereign power to unelected globalist cabal members? That would be un-American, even treasonous.

As for fear-mongering, wasn't it the Department of Homeland Security that first fear-mongered at our airports and train stations with their body scanners and molestation stations? They with their "color-coded" fear levels tried to set the US public into panic mode, but it failed because people discovered who supported terrorists by allowing them to board aircraft without passports or I.D., such as the "shoe bomber" who US intelligence helped onto the aircraft so he could be arrested. Who created Operation Gladio, to place the European continent in fear? Who developed Operation Northwoods used for the 9/11 attack? It was the Pentagon. It wasn't Russia.

Russia rightly opposes these illegal, criminal acts of US officials, and the recent election of Trump proves that the American people also oppose those illegal acts. Real Americans don't want a criminal government running the country.

Russia and Putin refused to remain silent in the perpetration of mass murder across the Mid-East. They did all they could do, short of war, to stop the Obama and Bush regimes from wrecking entire nations, and Russia even cooperated where it made sense to keep war from starting. Russian leaders were against the bombing of Libya and said so, and they were disappointed at seeing the treachery of Hillary Clinton in the murder of Khadaffy.

Russia was against losing Crimea as its only warm-water port for the Russian navy, and the US reaction to that effort was so hypocritical that even US allies were shocked. European leaders did not want any sanctions against Russia but only reluctantly agreed because the US regime forced the issue. It wasn't Russia's idea to move NATO close to Russia and steal the only warm water port Russia has.

So get the facts straight in your thinking before you blame Russia for "opposing" what the Obama regime had been doing, because it is right to oppose wrongdoing. Russia did everything reasonable to stay out of war. Russia would not be fighting in Syria today if the US had not sent it's covert terrorist groups into Syria to depose a Russian ally, Al-Assad. If the US had just left Syria alone, Syrian cities and towns would still be functioning and not reduced to rubble. If the US had left Libya, Iraq, and Syria alone, there would be far fewer immigrants flooding into the EU.

The problems in the Mid-East are now US problems only because the Bush-Obama regimes meddled in regions they knew would be triggering a mass movement of muslim populations out of the region and into the more advanced nations, tearing them apart. The mess they created was deliberate to advance the power of global government.

Russia wasn't part of that. Putin didn't do it. Russia was busy recovering from the collapse of the USSR.

The disaster we have today is one our own government created, our guys from Texas and from Kenya did it.

So what was the point in forcing tens of millions of muslims to flee their own countries into the most advanced nations of Europe?

A flood of immigrants puts pressure on the existing power structures of Europe, weakening them sufficiently to eventually destroy them, and that creates the opening for a global government to rescue Europe from its planned disaster. When floods of cheap labor occupy the entire continent, crime waves arise, and the public will demand more security, more surveillance, more police state measures to protect them, until they get a Nazi-like power structure that has zero tolerance for dissent and resistance. Taxes will increase to pay for it all, and anyone who resists paying more will be deemed a "terrorist", a "criminal", or a "traitor" to globalism.

The safety of the elite will be the primary goal of global government, not the safety of the citizens, and a dictatorship is best equipped to protect its own officials. There will be mass arrests, mass executions, just as with any other police state. It is already happening in America - people who resist police commands are routinely executed on the spot when the officer shoots them rather than use non-lethal force. Shooting people is what police are trained to do now. Just as in Fallujah or Mosel, they shoot first because we are all "the enemy" now. They are no longer trained to protect the public, they are trained to neutralize the threat.

Edited by Zharkov

Tatarewicz: Odd that Zharkov doesn't realize it's not Americans who are causing mayhem and antagonism against Russia but rather Sayanim neocons who have infiltrated Washington where they're pulling foreign policy strings on behalf of Israel. Case of not seeing the forest for the trees (which Milano from Australia can readily see). Strange that it takes distance to see what's going on.

Tatarewicz  posted on  2016-12-10   4:42:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Tatarewicz (#5)

Not likely China would resort to negative tactics like those of US, all of which are at the instigation of the illegal Israeli state,

You actually are right there.

Russia and China are not interfering in our domestic concerns and weaknesses in the way that private and official elements in this country have been interfering in and around Russia. The Chinese have been unmercifully leeching off our research and technology.

But as far as making hay of old historical claims and ethnic frictions, we've got plenty of domestic termites at work who get money and encouragement from the Soros axis and the like. They are our active enemy.

evahthang go' be aw-rite

randge  posted on  2016-12-10   15:30:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: randge (#8)

Chinese have been unmercifully leeching off our research and technology.

Which is OK since they've used it to produce a vast array of consumer goods which almost everyone can afford; not using tax and borrowed dollars for drones, bombs and other destructive equipment, etc., like you know who.

Tatarewicz  posted on  2016-12-11   7:06:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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