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Title: Was the Civil War Necessary?
Source: [None]
URL Source: https://lewrockwell.com/2017/05/bri ... cclanahan/civil-war-necessary/
Published: May 3, 2017
Author: Brion McClanahan
Post Date: 2017-05-03 07:51:34 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 526
Comments: 27

Trump supposedly stepped in it. Again.

In an interview that aired Monday with Salena Zito, he wondered aloud that if better leadership could have prevented the Civil War [sic].

Trump thought that Andrew Jackson would have prevailed in a showdown between the North and the South. After all, he did it before in the 1830s. Trump then said this: “He [Jackson] was really angry that he saw what was happening with regard to the Civil War, he said, ‘There’s no reason for this.'”

Trump followed up by committing the most heinous of all heinous acts. He questioned if the Civil War [sic] was necessary!

The leftist media immediately pounced, with several openly mocking Trump for believing that Andrew Jackson was alive in 1861.

Time to buy old US gold coins

A USA Today headline read: “Note to Donald Trump: Andrew Jackson wasn’t alive for the Civil War.”

The LA Times: “Trump makes puzzling claim about Andrew Jackson, Civil War.” The Chicago Tribune ran the same headline (groupthink) as did a number of other “news” outlets.

Social media trolls ran post after post criticizing Trump’s “revisionist” history, lambasting him for not knowing when Jackson was alive, or that he dared to buck modern historical interpretation. The snarky liberal establishment dimwit historian Kevin Krause Tweeted “When the Civil War came, Andrew Jackson had been dead fifteen years.”

Zing! You nailed him Dr. Kevin. How bright! How engaging! Only a Princeton prof could have come up with that one.

The congratulatory remarks rolled in from his “esteemed” colleagues.

And then The Atlantic staff lowered the boom. At least that is what they thought.

In only a matter of hours, this “news” magazine published two pieces on Trump’s supposed gaffe.

Young leftist twit David Graham published a piece titled “Trump’s Peculiar Understanding of the Civil War” in which he made a number of “peculiar” claims himself.

Graham suggested that: 1) “nullification” is unconstitutional because the federal courts say so. 2) “The Civil War [sic] was fought over slavery, and the insistence of Southern states that they be allowed to keep it.” 3) The Civil War [sic] wasn’t tragic because the “great thinker” Ta-Nehisi Coates said so in 2011. 4) War was inevitable because of the “Confederate states’ commitment to slavery.” 5) If Trump had read great history like Doris Kearns Goodwin’s Lincoln biography Team of Rivals, he would have a different position on the War—this position is hysterical.

Graham also dusted off the “Dunning school” pejorative in order to show his supposed intellectual superiority to the sitting president. After all, Graham insisted that Trump can’t be blamed for being such a dunderhead because even though he attended great schools, “Many Americans are still taught, incorrectly, that the war was essentially a conflict over state’s rights, with abolition as a byproduct of the war. This revisionist view flourished after the war, and though gradually being displaced, is common across the country.”

This is the revisionist calling traditional history revisionism.

The Atlantic followed up just over an hour later with a piece by Yoni Applebaum titled “Why There Was a Civil War.” The revisionist hits just kept coming.

Applebaum didn’t berate Trump for suggesting that historians don’t ask if the Civil War [sic] could have been avoided—he proved that this has been done for years by going through about a century of American historiography on the issue—but for claiming that the War could have been avoided and by “the omission of a critical word: slavery.” To Applebaum, the question of the War begins and ends with slavery and nothing but slavery. He provided one quote from Lincoln to prove his point and as most shallow Lincoln apologists do today, several quotes from the Southern States’ declaration of causes that seem to prove unequivocally that slavery and only slavery led to the War.

He concluded his article with a strange application of moral causation to the War, a moral causation that the vast majority of Americans missed in both 1860 and 1861 when the question of war or peace was still on the table. “There are some conflicts,” he wrote, “that a leader cannot suppress, no matter how strong he may be; some deals that should not be struck, no matter how alluring they may seem. This was the great moral truth on which the Republican Party was founded.”

If only it were that simple. And if only Lincoln was the great leader that both Graham and Applebaum believe him to be.

It seems both Graham and Applebaum fell asleep in class or at the very least have swallowed the Lincoln myth so thoroughly that no evidence to the contrary could persuade them of their folly or their revisionism.

Certainly, Trump is no scholar and his reverence for Jackson is troubling, for it was Jackson who provided the blueprint for Lincoln’s heavy handed tactics toward the South in 1861. To suggest that he would have worked out a compromise is a stretch, though he did support the deal Henry Clay brokered with South Carolina in 1832, a deal that resulted in the people of South Carolina nullifying the Force Bill and then heading home.

That is often lost in the story. Nullification worked and contrary to what Graham suggested, the federal court system has never had the final say on the constitutionality of nullification. That was always the point. States don’t ask permission from the federal courts to nullify unconstitutional legislation, and as every proponent of the Constitution swore in 1787 and 1788, including Alexander Hamilton and James Wilson, laws contrary to the Constitution would be void. Jefferson and Madison made it clear the States could void them.

The real problem with both pieces in The Atlantic, however, is the insistence that the War was inevitable and some moral conflict over slavery caused the shooting.

Applebaum understood that the entire fabric of early American history was built on compromise, but Graham seemed to miss that.

Based on the history of the United States, there was never an “irrepressible conflict” until the North decided to fabricate one.

The South, in fact, was willing to compromise in 1860 and 1861, as it had been for the eighty years prior. Jefferson Davis insisted that any compromise placed before the special Committee of 13 established to handle the crisis needed the support of both Republican and Democratic members. He could get the Democrats to support several. But the Republicans, at the insistence of president-elect Lincoln, said no to every single one. Is that the work of a leader?

That led six other Southern States out of the Union in early 1861. Lincoln could still have saved the Union through compromise at this juncture, but chose not to do so. As Senator James Bayard of Delaware stated in 1861, the Union still existed even with seven States missing. The government, banking houses, and infrastructure remained. It seems that the “Confederate States insistence on slavery” had nothing to do with War. War and secession are separate issues. Secession didn’t mean war was inevitable. Most Americans hoped otherwise, even in the South where President Davis insisted that the South simply wanted to be left alone. To think the opposite is to assume the posture of the British in 1776. That is un-American.

There were still six other slave States in the Union as late as April 1861, over a month after Lincoln took office, six slave States that had already rejected secession. Lincoln was not worried about slavery at this point. He supported a proposed thirteenth amendment which would have protected slavery indefinitely in the States where it already existed. He promised never to interfere with the institution in the South. Lincoln’s objective in March 1861 was to “preserve the Union” at all costs, and by “preserving the Union” Lincoln meant preserving the Republican Party and his fledgling administration. Letting the South go would have certainly made him a one term president. He received less than forty percent of the popular vote in 1860.

Applebaum is correct that letting the South go would have ensured the existence of slavery both within the Union and out for the near future (every other power abolished slavery by 1880), but this was not a moral question for most Americans. Lincoln received thunderous applause across the North in 1860 when he made promises to leave the institution alone. Racism was an American institution and Lincoln never challenged the prevailing attitudes on blacks. He embraced them. The Republican Party didn’t dabble in “moral truths.” Their objective was always political. Bottle the South up, ensure that the Whig economic agenda could be ascendant, and control the spoils.

This still doesn’t take away from the tragedy of the War. Contrary to what the “great scholar” Coates had to say—and he has as much claim to being a great scholar as David Barton, which isn’t much—the loss of one million men, the best blood in America, to a war for Union as Lincoln insisted was unnecessary at best and diabolical at worst. The elimination of slavery was for much of the war an afterthought. Lincoln considered it nothing more than a war measure to “best subdue the enemy.”

The simple fact is that Lincoln wanted war. He had the chance to save the Union without war before he took office. He had the chance to save the Union without war in March 1861. He rejected attempts to peacefully purchase federal property and began polling his cabinet about provisioning Sumter less than a week after taking office knowing full well it would cause war. As he later told a political ally, his decision to provision Fort Sumter had the desired outcome, meaning armed conflict. Nothing can sugarcoat Lincoln’s headlong rush into the bloodiest war in American history.

Trump may have been on to something here. Better leadership could have avoided the carnage. But saying that is now considered sacrilege. How closed minded of the “liberal” historical profession and establishment gatekeepers of acceptable truth.

But who cares. No one really reads The Atlantic anymore, anyway.

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#1. To: Ada (#0)

It was 155 years ago, leave the dead horse alone and get a life.

Darkwing  posted on  2017-05-03   13:51:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Darkwing (#1)

Why the Civil War Happened

Ada  posted on  2017-05-03   21:12:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Darkwing (#1)

leave the dead horse alone

Those who fail to know history are doomed to repeat it. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2017-05-03   21:32:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Ada (#0)

Nullification worked and contrary to what Graham suggested, the federal court system has never had the final say on the constitutionality of nullification. That was always the point. States don’t ask permission from the federal courts to nullify unconstitutional legislation, and as every proponent of the Constitution swore in 1787 and 1788, including Alexander Hamilton and James Wilson, laws contrary to the Constitution would be void. Jefferson and Madison made it clear the States could void them.

This really struck me when I read it. Jefferson and Madison were two of the most influential people at the Constitutional Convention in 1787.

For them to say that the States could void laws they felt were unconstitutional is the most profound thing I have read of late on those very secret proceedings. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2017-05-03   21:41:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: BTP Holdings (#4)

The Alien & Sedition Acts were voided by the legislatures of Virginia and Kentucky and not the Supremes. As the Wiki describes,

Thomas Jefferson and James Madison also secretly drafted the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions denouncing the federal legislation, though many other state legislatures strongly opposed these resolutions.[24][25][26] Though the resolutions followed Madison's "interposition" approach, Jefferson advocated nullification and at one point drafted a threat for Kentucky to secede.[27] Jefferson's biographer Dumas Malone argued that this might have gotten Jefferson impeached for treason, had his actions become known at the time.[28] In writing the Kentucky Resolutions, Jefferson warned that, "unless arrested at the threshold," the Alien and Sedition Acts would "necessarily drive these states into revolution and blood." Historian Ron Chernow says of this "he wasn't calling for peaceful protests or civil disobedience: he was calling for outright rebellion, if needed, against the federal government of which he was vice president." Jefferson "thus set forth a radical doctrine of states' rights that effectively undermined the constitution."[28] Chernow argues that neither Jefferson nor Madison sensed that they had sponsored measures as inimical as the Alien and Sedition Acts themselves.[28] Historian Garry Wills argued, "Their nullification effort, if others had picked it up, would have been a greater threat to freedom than the misguided [alien and sedition] laws, which were soon rendered feckless by ridicule and electoral pressure"[29] The theoretical damage of the Kentucky and Virginia resolutions was "deep and lasting, and was a recipe for disunion".[28] George Washington was so appalled by them that he told Patrick Henry that if "systematically and pertinaciously pursued", they would "dissolve the union or produce coercion".[28] The influence of Jefferson's doctrine of states' rights reverberated right up to the Civil War and beyond.[9] At the close of the Civil War, future president James Garfield said that Jefferson's Kentucky Resolution "contained the germ of nullification and secession, and we are today reaping the fruits".[9]

Ada  posted on  2017-05-04   11:05:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Ada (#5)

That is most interesting, and it is an angle I did not know of. Thanks so much. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2017-05-04   19:11:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: BTP Holdings (#4)

Nullification worked and contrary to what Graham suggested, the federal court system has never had the final say on the constitutionality of nullification. That was always the point. States don’t ask permission from the federal courts to nullify unconstitutional legislation, and as every proponent of the Constitution swore in 1787 and 1788, including Alexander Hamilton and James Wilson, laws contrary to the Constitution would be void. Jefferson and Madison made it clear the States could void them [Insert: Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions aka the "Principles of '98"/1798].

BTP: This really struck me when I read it. Jefferson and Madison were two of the most influential people at the Constitutional Convention in 1787.

For them to say that the States could void laws they felt were unconstitutional is the most profound thing I have read of late on those very secret proceedings. ;)

Jefferson and Madison were two of the most influential people of their time and both did essentially establish legislatively the States Rights framework that States don’t ask permission from the federal courts to nullify or block unconstitutional legislation. However, Re: the Constitutional Convention (United States) - Wikipedia

Several prominent Founders are notable for not participating in the Constitutional Convention. Thomas Jefferson was abroad, serving as the minister to France ... John Adams was in Britain, serving as minister to that country ... Patrick Henry refused to participate ... Also absent were John Hancock and Samuel Adams.

Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions - Wikipedia

The Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions (or Resolves) were political statements drafted in 1798 and 1799, in which the Kentucky and Virginia legislatures took the position that the federal Alien and Sedition Acts were unconstitutional. The resolutions argued that the states had the right and the duty to declare unconstitutional acts of Congress that were not authorized by the Constitution. In doing so, they argued for states' rights and strict constructionism of the Constitution. The Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions of 1798 were written secretly by Vice President Thomas Jefferson and James Madison respectively.

The principles stated in the resolutions became known as the "Principles of '98". Adherents argue that the states can judge the constitutionality of central government laws and decrees. The Kentucky Resolutions of 1798 argued that each individual state has the power to declare that federal laws are unconstitutional and void. The Kentucky Resolution of 1799 added that when the states determine that a law is unconstitutional, nullification by the states is the proper remedy. The Virginia Resolutions of 1798 refer to "interposition" to express the idea that the states have a right to "interpose" to prevent harm caused by unconstitutional laws. The Virginia Resolutions contemplate joint action by the states.

There were two sets of Kentucky Resolutions. Jefferson wrote the 1798 Resolutions. The author of the 1799 Resolutions is not known with certainty. The Kentucky state legislature passed the first resolution on November 16, 1798 and the second on December 3, 1799.

James Madison wrote the Virginia Resolution. The Virginia state legislature passed it on December 24, 1798.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2017-05-07   2:58:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: BTP Holdings (#4) (Edited)

BTP: ... For [Jefferson and Madison] to say that the States could void laws they felt were unconstitutional is the most profound thing I have read of late ...

This is Sentence 2 of the Post-Civil War 14th Amendment [usconstitution.net Ref.]:

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;

Note that it is far more expansive than just a prohibition against discrimination. It refers to any law infringing guarantees of the Constitution for America's citizenry. Ergo, I call it the Nullification Clause -- acknowledging and authorizing the nullification right of all States as a proper recourse and remedy to ensure Constitutionality, short of secession and another Civil War.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2017-05-07   3:51:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Ada (#0)

the deal Henry Clay brokered with South Carolina in 1832, a deal that resulted in the people of South Carolina nullifying the Force Bill

Force Bill - Wikipedia

... enacted on March 2, 1833. It authorized the president to use of whatever force he deemed necessary to enforce federal tariffs. South Carolina purported to nullify the Force Bill ... a Compromise Tariff was passed by Congress, defusing the crisis.

While the Force Bill rejected the concept of individual states' rights to nullify federal law or to secede from the Union, this was not universally accepted. It would arise again in the buildup to the American Civil War.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2017-05-07   4:09:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Ada (#0)

every other power abolished slavery by 1880

Actually, the League of Nations (UN precursor) was still trying to abolish slavery in 1926:

League of Nations Convention to Suppress the Slave Trade and Slavery - Encyclopedia.com

Whereas the signatories of the General Act of the Brussels Conference of 1889–90 declared that they were equally animated by the firm intention of putting an end to the traffic in African slaves;

Whereas the signatories of the Convention of Saint-Germain-en-Laye of 1919, to revise the General Act of Berlin of 1885, and the General Act and Declaration of Brussels of 1890, affirmed their intention of securing the complete suppression of slavery in all its forms and of the slave trade by land and sea;

Taking into consideration the report of the Temporary Slavery Commission appointed by the Council of the League of Nations on June 12th, 1924;

Desiring to complete and extend the work accomplished under the Brussels Act and to find a means of giving practical effect throughout the world to such intentions as were expressed in regard to slave trade and slavery by the signatories of the Convention of Saint-Germain-en-Laye, and recognising that it is necessary to conclude to that end more detailed arrangements than are contained in that Convention;

Considering, moreover, that it is necessary to prevent forced labour from developing into conditions analogous to slavery,

Have decided to conclude a Convention and have accordingly appointed as their Plenipotentiaries: [here follow the names of 40 envoys, omitted] Who, having communicated their full powers, have agreed as follows:

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2017-05-07   4:34:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: GreyLmist (#8)

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;

What a freaking joke in contemporary Amerika !

You might recall that "No State shall make Any Thing payable for debt other than Gold or Silver Coin" ...

noone222  posted on  2017-05-07   6:44:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: noone222 (#11)

"No State shall make Any Thing payable for debt other than Gold or Silver Coin"

Right. And you cannot pay a debt WITH a debt, you can only DISCHARGE it. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2017-05-07   8:27:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: BTP Holdings (#12)

After the debt is discharged via credit or Federal Reserve Note (rather than extinguished by actual MONEY) the debt remains as does the interest on the note. FRNs at best can be called currency "not money" !

But, worse than the debt and perpetually increasing interest, is the fact that this "CHOICE" of transacting business requires everyone to be members of a commercial system (jurisdiction) that doesn't recognize the Constitution.

The means of exchange dictates the "CHOICE" of law.

noone222  posted on  2017-05-07   9:03:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: noone222 (#13)

the fact that this "CHOICE" of transacting business requires everyone to be members of a commercial system (jurisdiction) that doesn't recognize the Constitution.

Maybe that is why "W" said "the Constitution was just a GD piece of paper". ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2017-05-07   9:09:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: BTP Holdings (#14)

Maybe that is why "W" said "the Constitution was just a GD piece of paper". ;)

We can actually say he was completely honest on the subject !

noone222  posted on  2017-05-07   9:35:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: noone222 (#15)

We can actually say he was completely honest on the subject !

Not so bad for an oil man gone astray and corrupted by millions of dollars from the Saudi bin Laden clan.

en.wikip edia.org/wiki/Pro...al_life_of_George_W._Bush

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2017-05-07   9:49:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Ada (#0) (Edited)

Title: Was the Civil War Necessary?

District of Columbia Compensated Emancipation Act - Wikipedia

The District of Columbia Compensated Emancipation Act, or simply Compensated Emancipation Act, was a law that ended [some] slavery in Washington, D.C. by paying slave owners for releasing their slaves.

Proposals to emancipate all slaves in the District of Columbia date back to at least 1839. ... In 1849, when he was still a congressman, Lincoln introduced a plan to eliminate slavery in Washington, D.C., through compensated emancipation; the bill failed.

In December 1861 [8 months after the Civil War began], a bill was introduced in Congress for the abolition of slavery [only] in Washington, D.C. ... the bill passed the Senate on April 3 [1862] by a vote of 29 in favor and 14 against. It passed the House of Representatives on April 11 [1862].

Lincoln signed the bill on April 16, 1862 [a year after the Civil War started], amid ongoing Congressional debate over an emancipation plan for the border states. Following the bill's passage, Lincoln proposed several changes to the act, which were approved by the legislature.

The passage of the Compensated Emancipation Act came nearly nine months before the signing of the Emancipation Proclamation. ... In order to receive compensation, ... slaveholders were required to provide written evidence of [slave] ownership, as well as state their loyalty to the Union. .... The act, which set aside $1 million, immediately emancipated slaves in Washington, D.C., giving [white and black] slaveholders up to $300 per freed slave. An additional $100,000 allocated by the law was used to pay each newly freed slave $100 if he or she chose to leave the United States and colonize in places such as Haiti or Liberia.

As a result of the act's passage, 3,185 slaves were freed. However, the older fugitive slave laws were still applied to slaves who had run from Maryland to Washington, D.C. The slaves were still subject to the laws, which supposedly applied only to states, until their 1864 repeal. ... The act was the only compensated emancipation plan enacted in the United States. ... In Washington, D.C., April 16 has been celebrated as Emancipation Day since 1866.

The act has one characteristic that remains to this day. When the limit to file income tax returns in the United States, April 15, falls on a Sunday, the due date would normally be advanced to Monday, April 16. However, since April 16 is a holiday in the District of Columbia, it applies to IRS offices there as well, thus the due date is advanced for the entire country to Tuesday, April 17.


Civil War: Apr 12, 1861 – May 9, 1865 ... U.S. Congress did not consider an abolition amendment until 1864.


Slavery in the United States - Wikipedia

Legally, the last 40,000-45,000 slaves were freed in the last two slave states of Kentucky and Delaware [Note: both Union States of "the North", not Confederate States of "the South"] by the final ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment to the Constitution on December 18, 1865 [more than half a year after the Civil War].

Slaves still held in Tennessee, Kentucky, Kansas, New Jersey, Delaware, West Virginia, Maryland, Missouri, Washington, D.C., and twelve parishes of Louisiana [Note: holdouts mostly Union States and Territory + its capitol] became legally free on this date. American historian R.R. Palmer opined that the abolition of slavery in the United States without compensation to the former slave owners was an "annihilation of individual property rights without parallel...in the history of the Western world". Economic historian Robert E. Wright argues that it would have been much cheaper, with minimal deaths, if the federal government had purchased and freed all the slaves, rather than fighting the Civil War.


If Slavery had really been the foremost issue in the runup to War that it's spinmeistered to be, Compensated Emancipation -- whether by a lump sum for full and immediate emancipation or smaller scaled per number of slaves released, North and South, over periods of time -- could have been enacted years prior to prevent it or enacted at the onset to shorten it. But the District of Columbia Compensated Emancipation Act was little more than a get-rich-quick scheme for D.C. insiders -- not even inclusive of slave-holding Northern and border States. Of the 13 official Ordinances of Secession of the 13 Confederate States of America, only 3 (Alabama, Texas and Virginia) even contain the word "slave" and only in the context of D.C. Government oppression of slave-holding States ... "many and dangerous infractions of the constitution of the United States by many of the States and people of the Northern section" ... "violative of the compact between the States and the guarantees of the Constitution" treating "this supreme law of the Union with contempt". Although Missouri and Kentucky were forced back into D.C.'s sphere of control, their Ordinances are most descriptive of the Federal and Northern atrocities and usurpations inflicted against them and their people.


In fact, it was the U.S. Government that seceded from South Carolina on November 7, 1860 -- a month and a half before that first State had even moved to do so -- by order of Federal Judge Andrew Gordon Magrath who closed down the United States District Court for the District of South Carolina and resigned when the Grand Jury foreman, Gourdin, wrongly claimed they couldn't proceed on whatever they were investigating/deliberating due to Lincoln's election but James Buchanan was still McGrath's chief law enforcer at that time, not Lincoln. Ref. 4um posts 9-13. "Within hours, and with less fanfare, the U.S. District Attorney, the U.S. Marshall and the U.S. Collector of Customs Duties also resigned." ... "Nearly all of the state’s federal officials resign, and the state legislature speedily passes a bill authorizing a state convention to meet on Dec. 20 to consider, and if it desires, to authorize, secession." + Ref. Confederate States of America: A mass meeting in Charleston celebrating the Charleston and Savannah railroad and state cooperation led the South Carolina legislature to call for a Secession Convention. U.S. Senator James Chesnut, Jr. resigned, as did Senator James Henry Hammond. Although McGrath himself had been nominated by Franklin Pierce to replace a Federal Judge who had resigned and he was commissioned by the Senate within 3 days to do so, D.C. evidently sent no resignation replacements at all to South Carolina, jeopardizing its port and other security, and the U.S. District Court being closed/inoperable by McGrath's Federal order put the State at risk of Federally imposed Martial Law. That very day (November 7, 1860), a Federal officer was arrested attempting to move supplies to Fort Moultrie from Charleston Arsenal -- reinforcing the probability that there was an orchestrated vacating of Federal offices there as "cause" to implement Martial Law and besiegements. Both the Grand Jury Foreman (Gourdin), and Judge McGrath + their associates had railroad stock connections that would have profiteered them much by War -- likely D.C. agents setting up South Carolina for a Federal takeover, I suspect.


Why The Civil War Happened by Jack Perry at lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/

President Trump wonders why the Civil War had to happen. Not me. Governments always start wars. THAT is why the Civil War happened.

Myself, I wonder why the Transcontinental Railroad had to happen. That’s the real disaster that gave the federal government the reach to go West and effectively control the West. “Go West, young bureaucrat! And tax them…” [/s]

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2017-05-07   10:37:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: noone222 (#11)

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;

What a freaking joke in contemporary Amerika !

You might recall that "No State shall make Any Thing payable for debt other than Gold or Silver Coin" ...

Yes, I do recall that and as being specific to the States, not at the Federal level. I'm fairly sure most States, if not all, would rather accept Gold and Silver if anyone would make payment to them in such instead of paper Federal debt-instruments. A problem with Gold and Silver as a means of exchange currently is that the weights and measures of it aren't in compliance with the Constitution for valuation stability. Being set now by fluctuating market prices, instead of the fixed rate those minerals should be set at Cosntitutionally for America's basic public Commerce purposes -- I'm thinking it would vastly compound impairment of contracts. Yes, dollars fluctuate in value too but comparatively not so drastically or usually not. Also, it's not a fault of the Constitution that States these days aren't following the orders they were given in that 2nd sentence of the 14th Amendment.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2017-05-07   11:53:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Ada (#0)

I believe that the civil war happened because of the war of 1812 . We never won that war. Us Southerners knew it. Now over a hundred years later we are nothing but a vassal state like Canada or Australia. We file our taxes on queens copyright paper. We are not free, we are a vassal nation.

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2017-05-07   14:30:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: titorite (#19)

We never won that war. Us Southerners knew it

You shouldn't have started it in the first place.

Ada  posted on  2017-05-07   19:11:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: GreyLmist (#18)

Most State officials of any consequence have SWORN an OATH to defend and support the Constitution which includes all of the judges and prosecutors that set fines in FRNs in violation of their oaths of office.

Just like an alcoholic must 1st admit the problem before the healing process can begin, America can not be healed of the loss of the Constitution or the ludicrous national debt without 1st admitting the commercial paper problem.

I know you'll cling to your beliefs despite the millions of blatantly obvious un-constitutional edicts issuing out of D.C., but I do try.

noone222  posted on  2017-05-08   8:56:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: noone222 (#21)

Most State officials of any consequence have SWORN an OATH to defend and support the Constitution which includes all of the judges and prosecutors that set fines in FRNs in violation of their oaths of office.

Just like an alcoholic must 1st admit the problem before the healing process can begin, America can not be healed of the loss of the Constitution or the ludicrous national debt without 1st admitting the commercial paper problem.

I know you'll cling to your beliefs despite the millions of blatantly obvious un-constitutional edicts issuing out of D.C., but I do try.

Who has gold and silver to pay for anything? Hoarders who want to part with it less the higher the market price fluctuates. Congress has been abdicating its power to fix the Standard of Weights and Measures for those forms of currency, as the Founders expected the values would be stabilized for State debt purposes. I think the Founders were trying to prevent the States from monetizing debts and transacting in perishable commodities that could bankrupt them. The national debt is not limited to gold and silver payment so FRN's are not impairing the Constitution at the national level, akaik.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2017-05-09   14:13:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Ada, titorite (#20)

We never won that war. Us Southerners knew it

You shouldn't have started it in the first place.

Explain please, Ada -- because it sounds like your opinion is that America should have done nothing resistant on the War of 1812 issue of forced impressment/drafting of Americans into British military service.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2017-05-09   14:21:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: GreyLmist, Axa (#23)

I agree the one war was a precursor to the next war and the wars after that. Should we do nothing about the destabilizing war of 1812? Should we come tinue to lie to kids about the truth of the war cause I tell yea, the canadain version of that war is very different from the us version... In the middle is truth. And in my mind when the enemy marches to the central capitol of ones lands and burns the capitol to the ground... I'm gonna say we lost and they won. The civil war seemed like a last ditch response to me, one we lost again. But how did we start it when the Brits were the bitter ones?

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2017-05-16   11:07:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Ada (#24)

That should been a ping at you 😀😁

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.

titorite  posted on  2017-05-16   11:08:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: GreyLmist (#23)

Explain please, Ada -- because it sounds like your opinion is that America should have done nothing resistant on the War of 1812 issue of forced impressment/drafting of Americans into British military service.

Right. The War Hawks were southerners who were using impressment of American seamen as an excuse to invade Canada. The New Englanders who really were affected by the impressment did not want the war and were on the verge of seceding. (Then there was no question regarding the right of states to secede.)

Ada  posted on  2017-05-16   20:16:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Ada, titorite (#26) (Edited)

@ Posts #19, #20, #23, #26 and #24:

titorite to Ada: I believe that the civil war happened because of the war of 1812 . We never won that war. Us Southerners knew it. Now over a hundred years later we are nothing but a vassal state like Canada or Australia. We file our taxes on queens copyright paper. We are not free, we are a vassal nation.

Ada to titorite: You shouldn't have started it in the first place.

Me to both: Explain please, Ada -- because it sounds like your opinion is that America should have done nothing resistant on the War of 1812 issue of forced impressment/drafting of Americans into British military service.

Ada to me: Right. The War Hawks were southerners who were using impressment of American seamen as an excuse to invade Canada. The New Englanders who really were affected by the impressment did not want the war and were on the verge of seceding. (Then there was no question regarding the right of states to secede.)

titorite to me and Ada: I agree the one war was a precursor to the next war and the wars after that. Should we do nothing about the destabilizing war of 1812? Should we [continue] to lie to kids about the truth of the war cause I tell yea, the canadain version of that war is very different from the us version... In the middle is truth. And in my mind when the enemy marches to the central capitol of ones lands and burns the capitol to the ground... I'm gonna say we lost and they won. The civil war seemed like a last ditch response to me, one we lost again. But how did we start it when the Brits were the bitter ones?

War of 1812 info @ 4um Ref., Posts #1-#13; most recent data @ Posts #11 and #13. Includes some Canadian factors throughout. British version of that war at the C-Span video (linked with a synopsis @ Post #11) to fairly assess their side of it.

Edits to add: Britain's Military basing in Canada where it could: force America's men into its foreign wars, blockade trade to and from here to weaken this nation, and from which it could also launch devastating attacks against America during the war if not opposed -- all of that was of real self-defense concern which shouldn't be simply reduced as "intent to invade Canada for expansionism purposes" or for power and greed, per the Federalist/British Loyalist and War Hawk verbiages to excuse their self-serving agendas and doings. Many Americans died and suffered from going into Canada because many others refused to go. Some Militias refused for the right reasons of not being authorized to cross the border, for instance, and others refused to go in any defense of America at risk to themselves and their profiteerings. I'm not of the opinion that America lost that war but did lose treaty-wise to Britain on the major causal issue of Impressment, as nothing about that situation was amended unless Britain chose (if it ever would) to cease and desist -- voluntarily of its own volition, as it soon well did; luckily, for all concerned. The Federalists/British Loyalists weren't as concerned because they may have been given Protection from Impressment docs (mentioned at the above link in Post #11), I suspect. In any case, they seemed quite at ease to enrich themselves by trading with the enemy of that time, Superpowered Britain, at the usual risk and cost to others of compulsory and lethally endangering Military enslavement.

Ada, I can scarcely muster a reply to your reply at this befuddling point other than: As you might have expected, I'll be having to weigh those Anti-Military L. Vance et al postings, you've long been so partial to, with several hefty grains of salt + wonderment if you're a Brit (whenever I see such, henceforth), now that it seems so unmistakably certain you're adamantly Pro-Draft/Impressment as long as it's Americans being forced into foreign Military servitude. Just sayin'! : [

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2017-05-18   1:31:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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