4um: Should Christians Be Subservient To This Government?

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Title: Should Christians Be Subservient To This Government?
Source: Romans 13
URL Source: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom013.html#1
Published: Jul 2, 2006
Author: christian bible
Post Date: 2006-07-02 20:11:00 by Red Jones
Keywords: None
Views: 6918
Comments: 117

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Romans 13:5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Romans 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Romans 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Romans 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].
a very provocative question in the title. I hope people will not be offended by it.
I have read some people's views here who criticize christians and say that the christians are overly-submissive to government's fascism.
I think there is a fine line, but a very important distinction still, between submitting to government's legitimate authority and supporting them in their evil. I try to do the former, but not the later.
I think we should be aware of the evil, but not supportive of it. Nevertheless, I personally feel we should take Romans 13 and similar verses seriously and submit to the authority that is put over us. I remember the story in the early chapters of Daniel when the Babylonians took over Jerusalem. Daniel submitted to their authority. but he told his friends that they would secretly keep the old rituals up even though the new king told them not to do this. He did not outwardly rebel, he did not raise up rebels. He only secretly obtained the things he needed and carried out the old rituals behind-closed-doors. And when the king came and told him to openly worship the new god he simply told the king that he would not do this. When the king told him he'd have him thrown in a furnace for defiance, then Daniel told the king that he would submit to this and that if this happened then his god was powerful enough to protect him from the furnace if he so chose to do so. Then the king threw him and his friends in the furnace. Then Daniel and his friends did not burn. Then the king ordered the court's accusers of Daniel to be thrown in the furnace instead. And he appointed Daniel to a high position knowing full well that he refused to worship the new god. And the king even paid respect to Daniel's god. To me Daniel was the model we should follow. He submitted to the legitimate authority of those over him here on earth. But he always worshiped god and not the king's false god. He was respectful of the authorities and did nothing to cause a rebellion. but he prevailed anyway with the help of god. To me Daniel is our model for today.
What say ye?
I think that the 'fallen-away' phenomenon is very real - that a large portion of the organized church has a faith that is against god, and yet they masquerade. And I think the 'deceived' factor is very strong. In these end-times many have beendeceived by the enemy. It is good not to be fallen-away. and it is good not to be deceived. but we still must at least submit to the authorities over us.
I keep telling people we are not going to defeat them. Until jesus returns. we should remember that the meek shall inherit the earth. The kingdom of heaven will come. The evil ones will be punished. Revenge is not ours', it is his. the sheep will be separated from the goats.
we must build our faith and do good works, look what it says in verse 3, the evil rulers cannot stop you when you do these good works. The things of man are being discredited in a powerful way. We cannot stop these events. we should be humble over them instead.
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#32. To: Red Jones (#0)
Nevertheless, I personally feel we should take Romans 13 and similar verses seriously and submit to the authority that is put over us.

Red, I commend to you this book:
The Mystery of Romans: The Jewish Context of Paul's Letter
The "powers that be ordained by God" referenced were not the pagan Roman Imperium, Caesar, or any of our present day would-be successors to Caesar. This is an horrific mistranslation/misapplication. In the context of the Letter to the Romans, a letter addressed to new Gentile Christians still possessed of all manner of pagan baggage and much in need of instruction in the oracles of God, instruction that could be had in only one place in the world of that time, namely the Jewish synagogues of the diasporah, the "powers that are ordained by God" are the leadership of the Jewish synagogues.
Remember, this letter was written before the schism between Church and Synagogue. Christianity at that time was still a sect within Judaism. Its leadership was entirely Jewish. And Gentile believers looked to Jews for instruction in the finer points of their faith. The centers for such instruction (the only place in a pagan world where the scriptures could be heard read and studied) were the local synagogues.
Had Gentile believers followed Paul's advice, the hard schism that later developed between Church and Synagogue with all of its tragic consequences for both Gentile and Jew might have been averted. Instead, this passage became twisted by a Paganized Church into a call for submission to Caesarism. This was nothing less than theological catastrophe.

Arator posted on 2006-07-03 0:45:21 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#34. To: Arator (#32)
so you're saying the authority mentioned in Romans 13 was the synagogue specifically, and had nothing to do with government?
but then there's the gospel verses where jesus said to render unto caesar what is caesar's and unto god what is god's.
but the type of authority you feel was meant in Romans 13 was not government regardless of those caesar verses from jesus? government is a different type of authority, a lesser authority; and you feel the original meaning did not mean government at all?
that is an interpretation that is not shared by most. but that doesn't mean it's a false interpretation.
I interpreted it to mean many types of authorities including government. but all authorities have their place and you don't have to respect them when they over-step their authority.
gotto admit - christians are like sheep, for better or worse. and this tyrant that rules over us has exploited that fact. but non-christians are like sheep too it has been proven in our country.

Red Jones posted on 2006-07-03 1:07:24 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#35. To: Red Jones (#34)
so you're saying the authority mentioned in Romans 13 was the synagogue specifically, and had nothing to do with government?

Exactly.
The thrust of Romans was all about averting a schism between Gentile believers and Jews.
The hope of Paul was that:
a) Gentile believers would submit to Jewish authority and learn the scriptures
b) Jews in the synagogues who did not yet believe would see the outworking of God in these new Gentile believers and come to faith in Yeshua themselves as a result.
But, even then, there was emerging among Gentile believers the notion that God had shifted his favor from Jews to Gentiles, that faith was a zero sum game, and that Gentile gain could only come at Jewish expense. Paul was teaching the opposite in Romans - that the divine plan was not to favor either Jew OR Gentile, but both Jew AND Gentile, united in one community of faith, and that it was imperative that new Gentile believers not act in ways that would impede their Jewish brethren from likewise coming to faith in their Messiah, Yeshua.
These are poor summaries of what is a deep and profound scholarly exegesis of Romans done by Nanos. I encourage you to read his book and come to your own conclusions.

Arator posted on 2006-07-03 1:30:25 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#37. To: Arator, All (#35)
Paul was teaching the opposite in Romans - that the divine plan was not to favor either Jew OR Gentile, but both Jew AND Gentile, united in one community of faith

A dandy reason to be VERY careful when reading Paul's writings.... The Jews keep their own traditions that are not the same as the Mosaic Law of the Bible. Their traditions are known as the Babylonian Talmud because that is where the rabbinical teachings originated. Yahshua the Christ condemned the Scribes and Pharisees for keeping their own, anti-Mosaic traditions, the "traditions of the elders." (Matt. Chap. 15.) It is those traditions, which were most vehemently condemned by Yahshua (Matt., Chaps. 15-28; 16:6) and which are today known as Judaism. James addresses his message to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. (James 1:1). By the time of Christ, the Twelve Tribes had already been established in the Caucasus, Europe and Asia Minor. The Jews of Judea were not expelled from Judea until around 70 A.D., well after these verses were composed. This is proof that James was not addressing Jews but rather Israelites. Yahshua said: "I come not but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." - Matt. 15:24; and "Go only to the house of Israel." - Matt. 10:6.

The chosen people (descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) were also to "separate themselves unto the Lord." -- Lev. 6:22 ."Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord." -- 2 Chron. 6:17. "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." -- Deu. 7:6. "For thou art an holy people unto Yahweh thy God; Yahweh, the LORD thy God, hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are on the face of the earth." -- Deu. 14:2. "And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken."-Deu. 26:19. "The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways." -- Deu. 28:9. "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people," -- 1 Peter 2:9.

The Anglo-Saxons are the direct, genetic descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel. The Assyrians had deported Beth-Omri (the House of King Omri, king of the 10 northern tribes) to the plains of Media, just south of the Caucasus Mountains. These deportations occurred between 745-715 B.C. These people became known as Scythians and Saccae before and during their migrations north through the Caucasus. Hence: Beth-Omri = Beth-Sak (House of Isaac) = the Caucasians = the Anglo-Saxons. "In Isaac shall thy seed be called." -- Gen. 21:12. Note that the Jews are not now, nor were they ever, known by the name of Isaac. Before these deportations, around 1500 B.C., large contingents of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin had already migrated from Egypt to Britain and Ireland before the Exodus. These two tribes of the House of Judah were merged back into the House of Isaac by the Saxon King, William the Conqueror. Completely separate and distinct are the Jews, who are composed of two distinct groups: the Ashkenazim and the Sephardim. The Sephardim are the older branch who are descended from the mixed marriages of Judahites and Edomites from about 150 B.C to 70 A.D. These people were not dispersed until Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman army under General Titus. It is to these people that Jesus said, "Ye are not of my sheep." -- John 10:26. The Sephardim are a mixed stock, including black African and many other racial admixtures, as the Jews themselves admit. As is evidenced in John 8:31-44, as well as in Matt. 23:35, where Yahshua accused them of the bloodshed of Abel: "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel." This can only mean that they are the descendants of Cain, who slew Abel. The Sephardim, therefore, have no claim to the Davidic inheritance because they are the children of the forbidden mixed marriages. They are not pure Israelites. We trace their origins back to Cain, whose father was the Serpent in the Garden. Their families and tribes, such as the Canaanites, Edomites, Hittites, and Amelekites, have historically been the enemies of true Israel, as they are today. The Khazar Jews (the Ashkenazim) are of primarily Turko/Mongolian descent. The Khazar tribes never claimed to be Shemites. Rather, they claimed descent from Japheth, Shem's brother. The twelve tribes were all Shemites because their father, Jacob/Israel was a Shemite. The Ashkenazi people, who comprise 90-95% of the Jewish people today, never were and are not now Shemites at all. They are Japhethites, Turks and Mongols. They converted to the religion of Judaism around 800 A.D. and did not have one drop of Shemitic blood in their veins! These facts make it very clear that the Modern Jew has absolutely no biblical claim to the land of Palestine. Both groups are impostors who wish to steal the inheritance of True Israel. "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the world be blessed." - Gen. 22:18. The Anglo-Saxons have given the world the Bible & Christianity, medicine, science & technology, high art, classical music, philosophy & metaphysics, the Magna Carta, and the Constitution of the United States, not to mention the feeding of the world through our agriculture. The Jews have given the world massive debt through usury, ethnic strife (especially with their false and violent claims on Palestine), special-interest politics (B'nai B'rith, the Anti-Defamation League, World Jewish Congress, the Jewish Defense League, Zionism, etc.), and decadence (pornography, organized crime, anti-Christian activism). In the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, the Jews were expelled from every nation in Europe because of their practice of usury and foreclosure and for practicing their sick and perverse Talmudic religion of deception. Name one country in the history of the world that has been blessed by the presence of the Jews!!! Even their own country seethes with constant turmoil. Its own economy cannot survive without continuous aid from the U.S. It would collapse from its own corruption. This, in spite of the fact that the world is filled with millionaire and billionaire Zionists. What is their money being used for? It is the Jews who PRETEND to be Israel so that they might reclaim the inheritance which their forefather, Esau, so foolishly sold to his brother, Jacob/Israel for a bowl of porridge. "Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance." - Matt. 21:38, Mark 12:7; Luke 20:14. Yahweh, through His prophet, Daniel, told us that in the Last Days, all things will be revealed. "Ye shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free."

The proof that the Jews are not of Judah is contained in the Book of Revelation:
"I know the blasphemy of them that which say they are Jews, and are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan." -- Rev. 2:9.
"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." -- Rev. 3:9. In Revelation 3:9, Jesus Christ is addressing His faithful followers. These followers cannot possibly be Jews, because the Jews have always denied Him. Jesus is saying that He will eventually make these liars come and worship at the feet of the Christians who are true to Him.
In both cases of this translation from the King James Version, the Greek word which is translated as 'Jews' is, in Strong's Concordance, the word (2453) Ioudaios, meaning "belonging to the tribe of Judah," and the word (2455) Ioudas, meaning the posterity of Judah. Interestingly, there is a related word, word number 2451, Ioudaikos, which is translated as "resembling a Judean, Jewish." To "resemble" someone is not the same as being someone. One who resembles can easily impersonate the real thing. Since we must always distinguish between the real thing and something which resembles the real thing, we must have different words for these objects. Unfortunately, the word ‘Jews’ has been used for both groups. So, the accurate translation of Rev. 2:9 is this: "I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Judahites, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." The Jews, who are in reality, Ioudaikos, not Ioudaios (impostors, not real), have been pretending to be Israelites since the Jewish Dispersion of 70 A.D. Here we see the beginning of the great deception that the religion of Judaism has performed for the last two thousand years of history. Judaism was not practiced by the Israelites. It was only practiced by the followers of the scribes and Pharisees. And the Pharisees were not ‘Ioudas’, Judah. They were, rather, ‘Ioudaikos’, only the resemblance of Judah. (John 8:44). In fact, the religion called Judaism has never been practiced by the House of Israel because the House of Israel was already scattered, from the Assyrian captivity starting in 745 B.C., into the "wilderness" of Europe and Asia Minor. The only exception to this rule has been when non-Jews convert to Judaism. Note well that the Jews declare descent through the mother. In contradistinction, the Old Testament and the New Testament declare descent only through the father. Read Matthew, Chapter 1 and Luke, Chapter 3 if you doubt this.

The Jews themselves confirm, indirectly, the fact that they are not the people of the blessing because they freely admit that "Everywhere we go, we are persecuted," "Everywhere we go, the specter of ‘anti-Semitism’ follows us." The question is: Does it follow them or do they bring it with them? It is a historical fact that in every nation that they have dwelt, they have always agitated for special privileges for themselves at the expense of the native population. Two modern examples of this fact, without the citizens being aware, are the building of holocaust museums at taxpayer expense and the passing of laws against "denying the holocaust." These are egregious examples of how the Jews manipulate the societies which have blessed them with a "welcome in." Contrary to what Genesis 12:3 states, the Jews have always returned the blessing with a curse by abusing the hospitality of the host nations. This is proof that the prophecy does not apply to them.

innieway posted on 2006-07-03 5:10:31 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#41. To: innieway (#37)
you make a lot of great arguments and have a lot of good scripture to back it up.
I agree with most of what you say, but the one thing I am skeptical on is the idea that Anglo-Saxons are direct genetic descendants of the 12 tribes. I thank you for sharing that because I know that some believe that and it is considered a taboo thing to think. I thought that the 'chosen people' who inherit these blessings of god were to be a people who believe, not a people who are genetic descendants of the early hebrews. So I am open to the idea that America is the new Jerusalem, but I would think this is done because of the faith that many Americans have or had in the past, not because of genetic descent from early Israel.
I agree completely though that Revelation 2:9 & Revelation 3:9 show that those who claim this blessing in modern-day Israel are frauds.
I thought there were verses somewhere in Old Testament that specifically say that those who inherit the blessings of old Israel are not genetic descendents, but spiritual descendants (those who believe) instead. I wish I knew where those verses are.

Red Jones posted on 2006-07-03 9:31:25 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#46. To: Red Jones (#41)
the one thing I am skeptical on is the idea that Anglo-Saxons are direct genetic descendants of the 12 tribes.

Isaac was living in Canaan, and this is where his sons Esau and Jacob were born. Esau was the first born, and was red (Genesis 25:25). Jacob was the younger of the twins. Jacob is the one that would later have his name changed by The Creator to Israel.
When the time came for Jacob to marry, his father Isaac forbade him to marry of the women in Canaan (Genesis 28:1). Jacob was instructed to go to their "homeland" and choose a wife from among the daughters of Laban, who was Jacob's uncle (Jacob's mother's brother - Genesis 28:2). If you look up Laban in Strong's Concordance, you will find that the name means "to be white"!!!
I used to think somewhat the same as you that the "chosen" were believers more than genetic. But I began to wonder why there was such a tedious accounting of lineages in the book of Genesis especially. So I began to look up each name in the Strong's Concordance, and started linking genealogies.... Believe me, it's all in there for a reason - to show the truth to us as to who we are, and put the puzzle pieces together. This whole "Jew" thing is a huge fraud - call it the world's greatest case of "Identity theft"!!
In the linking of genealogies, it is important to note that Ashkenaz (remember Ashkenazi jews) was a descendant of Japeth, NOT Shem... We get the word Semite from the name Shem. Interestingly, the name Japeth means (per Strong's Concordance) expansion.... And expand they have - now making up by far the largest percentage of modern "Jewry"!!! But they are NOT Semites, never were, never will be; and have never been favored by the Creator nor the ones His promises were made to.. Those would be the descendants of Shem (whose name means honor).
So yes, genealogy is VERY important, AND Anglo Saxons are direct descendants of Jacob - the 12 tribes of Israel... However, that doesn't mean that ONLY Anglo Saxons are the direct descendants. Jacob married 2 daughters of Laban - Leah and Rachel.. He had first fallen madly in love with Rachel (who apparently was quite the looker), and was basically TRICKED into marrying Leah. Anyhow, with Leah, Jacob fathered 4 children, but Rachel was barren. So Rachel instructed her handmaid to have children for her with Jacob! There were 2 children born of this "pairing". Later, Leah also instructed HER handmaid to bear children by Jacob - which resulted in 2 more children.. (We are now up to 8 kids) Then Leah bore 3 more. And finally, Rachel bore one (bringing the total to 12)- they named him Joseph.. (See Genesis chapters 29, 30). It was Joseph that was sold into slavery in Egypt, and Joseph that was so favored by the Creator that he eventually wound up holding the second highest position of authority in Egypt - second only to Pharoah; and his descendants during that 400 years of slavery turned into a HUGE number that were exiled from Egypt by Moses... Anyhow, back to the Anglo Saxon deal, there are 4 of the 12 tribes of Israel that were born to mothers that we basically have no genealogical background to - nor any clue as to their ethnicity, but there is little doubt that the other 8 (of the lineage of Laban) were white.

innieway posted on 2006-07-03 12:24:51 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#56. To: innieway (#46)
You have posted some incredibly interesting things, and I want to go back and read them more closely. However, I think what you are preaching here is racist and harmful to Christ's message. He came to draw ALL people to Himself. Contemplate John 3:16 for a minute. Also contemplate I Timothy 1:4 : "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do."
It's not about genes, but faith.
"In Isaac shall thy seed be called." -- Gen. 21:12.
Let's take the whole passage, and understand that the Bible says: Search the scripture, every word of prophecy will have its mate. The Bible is full of hidden pictures, that aren't always fully understood until it is time. [Speaking of the bondwoman Hagar, and her son Ishmael, whom Sarah wanted cast out]: Genesis 21:9 And Sarah saw the son Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. 11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. 12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in they sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for IN ISAAC SHALL THY SEED BE CALLED. 13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed. [Now here I want to mention that it was JESUS who appeared to Hagar in the desert to tell her to go back to her mistress, and that HE would increase Ishmael's seed. Even though Ishmael was not the seed or bloodline, which would produce Christ, God still cared.]
Read Galatians 3:16-29. Verse 16. Now to Abraham and his SEED were the pomises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy SEED, WHICH IS CHRIST. Verse 26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ." 27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28. For there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29. And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Now see the ALLEGORY in Galatians 4 about the "children of the flesh" versus the "children of the promise". The children of the flesh [the physical seed of Abraham, whoever they may be], have no standing under the NEW Covenant, unless they have accepted Christ. The "children of the promise" are all those [whatever race] who take hold of the New Covenant. The children of the flesh WHO HAVE NOT ACCEPTED CHRIST have become the children of the bondwoman [Cast out the children of the bondwoman for they shall not be heir with my son.], UNLESS they take hold of the New Covenant. It doesn't matter what race they are, if they have accepted Christ, they have become the children of the FREEWOMAN and of Abraham. People of ALL RACES are the New Israel.
Remember Jesus said, I have others that are not of this fold. Them too must I bring. See Isaiah 53:10. I think it is a much-neglected verse. Of course, the Jews, I understand, won't read Isaiah 53 in their Synagogues. Small wonder, for it speaks of Christ. Isaiah 53:10 : Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand."
This very clearly foretells who are the seed of Christ [those who accept HIM as the one-time sacrifice for sin]. Though He was CUT OFF [Isaiah 53:8; Daniel 9:26], those who believe in Him become His seed, and thus "declare His generation". THIS is the seed spoken of in Genesis 12:2-3. Genesis 12:2-3 refers to people of FAITH. Think about Rachel weeping for her lost children [Matthew 2:18]. Rachel's firstborn by the bondwoman Bilhah [Dan] was hers by ADOPTION, setting the precedent for her adoption of all the races through Christ, and Rachel will be comforted.
Read Acts 8:26-39. Recall the Ethiopians were black [Can an Ethiopian change his skin, or a leopard his spots?] Now notice that the Angel of the Lord [the Angel of the Lord is often JESUS] sends Philip to preach to the Ethiopian. The Ethiopian was well on his way to understanding what a lot of church-goers don't understand today. Note the Ethiopian is BAPTIZED IN CHRIST. [Galatians 3:27]. The black Ethiopian is just as much a part of Israel as anyone else, and as the scripture says, becomes "an heir according to the promise." [Galatians 3:29].
The same holds true for every other race, even Edom. God has a remnant of them as well:
Amos 9:11 In that day will I raise up the TABERNACLE of David that is fallen, , and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old. 12 That they may possess the REMNANT OF EDOM, AND OF THE HEATHEN, WHICH ARE CALLED BY MY NAME, saith the LORD that doeth this.
Likewise:
The Sephardim, therefore, have no claim to the Davidic inheritance because they are the children of the forbidden mixed marriages. They are not pure Israelites. We trace their origins back to Cain, whose father was the Serpent in the Garden. Their families and tribes, such as the Canaanites, Edomites, Hittites, and Amelekites, have historically been the enemies of true Israel, as they are today.
You named two of the forbidden tribes that THE ISRAELITES MARRIED INTO! Judges 3:5-6. The Israelites were not a pure race. God accepted strangers into his "household" if they took hold of his Old Covenant. It's not an issue under the New Covenant, because membership in the House of the LORD is BY FAITH.
Let's talk about Japheth. Genesis 9:27 God shall ENLARGE Japheth, and he SHALL DWELL IN THE TENTS OF SHEM..... Remember Jesus said that the first would be last, and the last would be first? Look at Genesis 10:1. The order of Noah's sons are SHEM, Ham, and JAPHETH [father of the Gentiles]. Then the order is reversed in the naming of the families, JAPHETH being the first one named in verse 2. See Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob,and to restore the PRESERVED of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
See Isaiah 66:19-21. God says He will make LEVITES [priests] of the GENTILES and ALL NATIONS. Rev. 5:9-10 says God has chosen people from EVERY RACE to be kings and priests on the earth. Therefore the Ashkenazis "oppose themselves", since the promises were made to them as well, if they accept Jesus as LORD!
Go back to the rift between the two houses, and see how the Israelites felt about playing second fiddle and slaves to their brethren in the Kingdom of Judah.
1Ki 12:16 — So when all Israel saw that the king hearkened not unto them, the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? neither [have we] inheritance in the son of Jesse: to your tents, O Israel: now see to thine own house, David. So Israel departed unto their tents.
http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/1Ki/1Ki012.html#16
Look at how the Jews claim to be the chosen ones on the basis of birth and genes [even though we know it is a fraud]. Think of the hard feelings it causes, not to mention the violence and thievery that is the result. Think of how someone sitting in a hut in Africa, or a Palestinian whose home has been bombed, and their family killed, thinks, we have no part in their God, so why should we care or listen? Where is their hope? Would Jesus want people left with no hope? Jesus came to repair the breach, to tie up old wounds, to bring salvation and eternal life to ALL who believe in Him. He sends us to preach the gospel of His kingdom, not to preach division. He sends us to bring hope of a better day, when the meek shall inherit the earth. Race has nothing to do with it. John 3:15 For God so loved THE WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOMSOEVER believed, would not perish, but have everlasting life.
I hope you don't take this as criticism. I have seen the view you gave on here before, by others. Today I just couldn't keep silent any longer. People are dying out there, and it is all so very unnecessary. The devil wants to separate us from each other and from God, because he knows his days are numbered, and he'd like to take as many of us with him as he can.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-03 19:56:53 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#58. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#56)
Would Jesus want people left with no hope? Jesus came to repair the breach, to tie up old wounds, to bring salvation and eternal life to ALL who believe in Him.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Most Christians would agree that Christ is God, that they are one. God said he hated Esau in his mothers womb, Jacob he loved neither child having done any wrong. Where was Esau's hope ?
Most Christians equate faith with "believing" ... satan believes ... will he receive salvation unto eternal life ?
I'm glad that you mentioned the often ignored scripture where Jesus states that he has many folds ... some may be muslims, some may be Krishnas ... I don't think it's for me to question since they're His folds to do with as he chooses.
Todays Christian community has all but forgotten the Old Testament. They have gone headlong for Paul's commentary on grace, and ignore the fact that Christ himself stated that he didn't come to change the law, but to fulfill or establish it. He even went so far as to say that not a jot or tittle of the law would pass before heaven and earth passed away.
[Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. ]
Too many of us have bought the bullshit spewed from the pulpits of pastoral prostitutes, that make salvation palatable for their own economic benefit. They promote inter-racial marriages which God forbid, they excuse homosexuality which God forbid, they have the kids dress up like ghouls on Halloween (Night of the dead) they have Easter Egg Hunts on Easter Sunday ... which is a pagan fertility ritual in remembrance of Ashtoreth, they promote Christmas which is another pagan day of worship for Semiramis, and they even put Christmas trees in their churches which are forbidden at Jeremiah 10 (The Book of Jeremiah).
Those that say God loves everybody are full of shit. It just ain't so.
The Scripture that made me really think about finding the truth was one where Christ says at the Judgment there will be "many" that will say "but lord we healed the sick and cast out demons in your name" ... to which he will reply "DEPART FROM ME FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU" ... explain that !
There is a grand delusion happening in these times. The preachers and priests of baal have filled the pulpits, like they have for 6000 years, they talk a lot of nonsense twisting scriptures by telling people ... Oh this was meant in a spiritual context, or ... this is an allegory.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

noone222 posted on 2006-07-03 21:01:38 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#81. To: noone222, BTP Holdings, Red Jones, All (#58)
Christ himself stated that he didn't come to change the law, but to fulfill or establish it. He even went so far as to say that not a jot or tittle of the law would pass before heaven and earth passed away.
[Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. ]

I was two hours into replying to your post, when I went to a google cache, and THEN to the original URL, which proceeded to crash my little computer. I tried it again, to see if it was just because I had too much stuff on it. Nope, it did it again. I lost everything. I have some things to do, but God Willing, I will be back to answer your post, point by point. I am a little slow, so in the meantime, would you please clarify for me, that you believe only the "white ten tribes of Israel" are true Israel, and that peoples of other nations, tribes, and tongues, like the Ethiopian are not? Because if this is what you believe, everything in me recoils at the thought. If this is the God you worship, it is no wonder so many people are turned off. If this is not the case, please forgive me, and I will not spend any more time on that particular issue.
The article that crashed my computer: I'd say it doesn't fit into someone's agenda, so I'd recommend everyone make a copy and spread it far and wide, particularly in Tim LaHaye territory. I agree with this, except that I believe God IS building His kingdom on earth [I will explain if anyone wants me to. One thought: Jesus said, My kingdom is not NOW of this world.]:
Global Elite Promoting ‘End Times’ Myth

Television gurus preaching a fraudulent “end times” and “last days” theory popularized in the 19th century are helping lay the groundwork for world government by corralling good Christians into supporting a doctrine that has no Biblical basis.
True Christian fundamentalism, based on the teachings of the Bible takes the Bible at its word and accepts that Christ accomplished all that he intended to do while on Earth and that His kingdom is here and is within you. That’s the powerful thesis put forth by John Anderson, producer of the video The Last Days. On Dec. 16, Anderson made a return appearance on Radio Free America (RFA), the weekly call-in talk forum sponsored by American Free Press with host Tom Valentine. (A transcript of Anderson’s first appearance on RFA was published in AFP’s issue No. 19.)
What follows is an edited transcript of the interview. Comments by Valentine are in boldface. Anderson’s responses are in regular text.

The person responsible for popularizing this clap-trap that the “end times” and “last days” are coming was a shady character named Cyrus I. Scofield.
That’s true, but Scofield was not the originator. Scofield got these false teachings from John Darby, who got it from Edward Irving and Margaret McDonald, a 14-year-old girl who had a dream and began writing letters to Irving describing what she thought was going to happen.
Darby was one of the Plymouth Brethren and when Scofield got hold of what Darby and others were teaching, he produced the Scofield Bible in 1909 and there have been many revisions of it since then. Although they never say “who” revised Scofield’s work.
Researchers have said that it was a powerful New York attorney, Samuel Untermyer, who was instrumental in arranging for the Oxford Press, which was controlled by the Rothschild banking family, patrons of the Zionist movement, to publish the Scofield “bible.”
Students of history recall that Untermyer, who was a major player in the Zionist movement, was the one who blackmailed President Woodrow Wilson with the love letters that Wilson sent to his mistress, a certain Mrs. Peck. The history of this sordid affair was described in The Barnes Review* in its March/April 2000 issue. In its January/ February 2001 issue, The Barnes Review described Untermyer’s famous “holy war” speech that helped launch World War II.
So many people today believe that the words of Scofield are the words of the scripture. I tell people that if you’ve got a Scofield “bible,” then throw it away.
Most people who call themselves Christians do not study and read God’s word for themselves or they allow their thinking to be influenced what they have been told based on the teachings of Scofield.
If you look at the Tim LaHaye series, Left Behind, he and his associate have each made some $10 million on this, playing on the fear and unknowing faith of the Christian public. Doom and gloom sells, but truth does not.
Thanks to the influence of Scofield and his sponsors, Untermyer and the Rothschild family, many Christians today believe that God promised a certain tract of land in the Middle East to the people we know today as Israelis.
You are referring to the promise that God made to Abraham. God keeps his word and he certainly did. In Joshua 21, verses 43-45, it says that the Lord God gave unto Israel all the land. So God did fulfill the promise that he made to Abraham.
But was the promise of this land to those known as the Hebrews a promise that this would be their land forever?
No, it was not. First of all, the old covenant between God and the Hebrews was conditional. Although God kept his word, there was nothing in that promise that it would be that way forever. The old covenant was conditional.
The key word is “if.” That is, if the Hebrews kept their part in their covenant with God. But all throughout scripture the prophets continue to predict that the Hebrews will break that covenant by disobeying God and that, eventually, they will lose it all.
And eventually, they did lose it all. This is what is important: it was never solely an ethnic issue as to who “Israel” was. The issue always had to do with those who had faith and believed in God.
For example, the United States is often referred to as a “Christian nation.” That does not mean that everyone in the United States is a Christian. But those who follow Christ by faith and by faith alone are of that spiritual seed.
In Numbers 9:14, if strangers came in and kept the ordinances and the males were circumcised, they were accepted as a part of Israel. So it was not that this exclusive, nationalistic issue that many people try to hang onto. Spiritual Israel was always the issue.
God said that Israel as a racial entity was going to be the one that the prophecies were made to and the messiah was going to come through. God divorced Israel but he did not divorce Judah, because the messiah had to come through Judah, as the prophecy was made in Genesis 49:10.
Remember the parable that Jesus used about wineskin? He said you did not put new wine into an old wineskin. The issue was that the new covenant was not going to be accepted by old covenant Israel.
That’s the key thing: people with power in this world refused to accept God’s prophecy and what He had brought about. You have people who call themselves “Christians” who believe that this “Israel” of today is still the Promised Land and that God’s promise is going on in perpetuity and that God has a hand in this modern-day political mess in the Middle East and that we have an “end times” coming. They suggest that Christ effectively failed and did not fulfill God’s plan.
That is exactly what dispensational theology teaches: The Jews rejected the kingdom and, as a result, it was put on hold. That’s utter nonsense. When they came to Christ and tried to make him king after He had fed the 5,000, he slipped away from them. He had not come to set up a physical kingdom. That was never His intent. It was always a spiritual kingdom with a spiritual people.
To expect Christ to return and rule over a literal kingdom is to believe that everything Christ did when he was here on Earth was a failure. How could the Son of God be a failure?
Correct. The people who are saying that Christ failed and has to return are suggesting that God was caught off guard and He had to come up with a “Plan B.” That’s absurd. Yet we still have many evangelical Christians believing this nonsense, thanks to Scofield.
The historical and Biblical truths about the destruction of Jerusalem are not something that is widely taught to Christians in America today. Christians are not taught that this was the fulfillment of God’s promise and was literally the hand of God Himself destroying the old order completely and totally.
Every Jew knew that the “Heaven and the Earth” was the temple. That’s what Jesus meant when He said that “Heaven and Earth” would pass but that His word would not pass. That is the prophecy of Isaiah 65: the New Jerusalem that came out of Heaven, the new “Heaven and Earth” that John spoke about in Revelation 21 when he said he saw a new Heaven and Earth and no more sea. What John was saying was that there was no more separation, no more exclusivity. Now God’s kingdom was open to all.
The destruction of Jerusalem and the physical destruction of the old temple by the Roman armies was a signal that God’s kingdom was now in place. Christ predicted in Matthew 24 what would happen, and the truth is that what happened in Jerusalem in the times of Titus—the Roman who destroyed Jerusalem—you cannot find anything else in history to match it for horrible events.
Christ said that the whole system that the Pharisees stood for was going to be destroyed. His disciples came to him on the Mount of Olives and asked, “When shall these things be?” Every one of them knew that there was going to be a new Heaven and Earth, a new age, a new covenant. Christ described to them all that would happen before it would transpire.
Today people say that we are living in “the last days” and the world is coming to an end, but in Luke 21 (which is parallel to Matthew 24 and Mark 13), Christ said, “Take heed that you be not deceived for many shall come in my name, saying, ‘I am Christ. The end draweth near.” He said you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars and then said that there would be wrath upon “this people.” That’s the key: he’s referring to the flesh-and-blood individuals he was talking to at that time. The issue in Luke 21 is that he said that only the apostles themselves would be able to say when the end had come. That means that anyone after them would be a false prophet if they were predicting the end times had come to Earth.
The prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem was made to those people in that land, not to the whole world and that is another key to understanding all of this.
The people of Jerusalem practically ate each other. It was a horrendous end time in the most classic sense.
Josephus, the historian, even said that if Titus, the Roman, had not lifted his finger, the Jews of the time would have probably destroyed themselves from within. More than a million were killed and, at the end, only 100,000 were left. They went into captivity.
There is a well-known Christian columnist, Cal Thomas, who seems to believe that everything Israeli leader Ariel Sharon does is directed by God Himself.
That is the sentiment today: that everything Israel does is because it is ordained by God.
The original “Israel” was dissolved by God, and if you look at the world today from a correct Biblical sense, based upon what we have in the Bible, there is no such thing as a “Jew.”
The Jewish Encyclopedia itself says there is no such thing as a Jewish race. There is only a Jewish religion now and that is what came out of Babylon and had nothing to do with the Bible and its times.
Is today’s Judaism the religion of the tribe of Judah?
Predominantly today, yes. Under the years of Babylonian captivity they came up with the synagogue-type of Judaism that is being practiced today. When you start looking at the Jewish Talmud, you find things to tally contrary to God’s word, yet there are some today who say that “Christianity came out of Judaism,” and that is absurd. We are not a Judeo-Christian country. The United States started out as a Godly, Christian country. Not all of those who founded this country were Christian but at least the ideas of the Bible were incorporated into our nation by many of the Founding Fathers.
God had his prophets on the Earth and when Christ fulfilled the promise, the temple was gone and the old way of doing things was wiped out.
It was fulfilled. It’s amazing to me that there are those who don’t believe it. We say “trust in Jesus” and “take him at His word,” but many don’t.
Every single person has Jesus right there if he so chooses. It has nothing to do with race or sex or height or anything. God’s kingdom is within us.
It is open to any and all who believe in the finished work of Jesus Christ. H

* For information on ordering issues of The Barnes Review, call (877) 773-9077, email barnesrev@hotmail.com or write P.O. Box 15877, Washington, D.C. 20003.
URL SHOULD be: http://www.americanfreepress.net/RFA_Articles/Global_Elite_Promoting__En d_Ti/glo bal_elite_promoting__end_ti.html

noone222, after reading this, do you still want me to continue? I had about 28 Blueletterbible windows open to refute what you said, on one point alone. I'll be happy to pull them up again, if need be. I'm not trying to be cranky, but God is no racist, and I won't let him be construed as such.
I noticed http://historicist.com has/had this article. I did not check to see if it is still up.
BTP, is there something up with americanfreepress?

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-04 15:00:39 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#93. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#81)
(1). Every Jew knew that the “Heaven and the Earth” was the temple. That’s what Jesus meant when He said that “Heaven and Earth” would pass but that His word would not pass.

(1). This conclusion is ridiculous, and even dangerous. If Jesus wanted to say that the Temple would pass before his law passed ... that's what he would have said. To manufacture such an interpretation leaves all Scripture subject to conjecture. God cannot lie, but whomever determined this "loose interpretation" has the ability. The Scriptures are not given to "private" interpretation. Let God be true and all men liars (including Paul).
As far as whether or not I believe the Ten Lost Tribes of Jacob/Israel were "all" white; I don't think it possible to determine the exact genetic make-up of all ten of the so-called lost tribes. However, some of them being white is most probable. Jacob (whose name was changed to Israel) had children by four women, two of which bore 5 sons that were most likely white.
Reuben, Levi, Simeon, Judah and Joseph were probably white. The other sons were born of two sisters that were handmaidens, of which their ethnicity is unknown. It should be noted however that Jacob's mother had recommended that he marry his cousins, the daughters of Laban (her own brother) so as not to marry outside their own race. It's possible that the handmaidens were white as well, but I don't have enough real evidence to support that as being fact.
Both Sarah, Abraham's wife, and Rebecca, Isaac's wife (Jacob's mom) are described as "fair" complexioned. The name Laban, (who was Rebecca's brother, Jacob's uncle and the father of two of Jacob's wives, means "whited", or "to be white". King David of Israel, descended from Jacob through Judah is said to be "ruddy complected". There are many references in the Scriptures to these things, but the politically correct churches don't teach it.
Many people make statements like "I believe this" or "I believe that" and the truth doesn't give a tinkers damn what people choose to believe. To be frank, I didn't want to believe these truths either when they were related to me. I thought, like everyone else does, that these people calling themselves Jews were the chosen people of promise. That's what everyone had told me my whole life and I was angered by the person that tried to tell me these things.
I determined to prove him wrong by doing the research necessary to refute what he was saying. I did the research and had to apologize for my ignorance, he was right. The more I searched, the more evidence I found to support the very subject I was trying to disprove.
As a matter of fact, doing the research to prove my own political correctness, and that I was not a bigot or white racist, actually opened the Scriptures to me for the first time, enabling me to understand many things that were formerly obscurities that made me ask the question, "what do these Scriptures have to do with me" ? Like so much else that we have been lied to about, this was just another one of those things.
Then, after realizing that whites were probably part of the lost tribes of Israel, I thought, so what. I haven't done anything remarkable, so what's the point. And I still have questions, lots of them. But none of them have to do with who the Ten Tribes are in reality, but more importantly "WHO THEY ARE NOT".
And they definitely ARE NOT WHO WE HAVE BEEN TOLD THEY ARE. And this international lie has put us on the path to a nuclear disaster beyond comprehension. What's worse, is that the lie is promoted by people that should read and understand the Scriptures, but instead "ignorantly" call people like me a hater or a bigot based on their emotions alone and not on what the Bible actually states as fact.
I'm stubborn so I understand it when I see it in others. That's why I won't shut up either. I'm so sickened by the deeds of these people that go unchallenged because they have conned the world into believing a huge lie. Maybe like innieway said, an Identity theft amounting to "the crime of the century".
Lastly, let me close with this challenge. Forget what the paid pulpit prostitutes have ever told you. They like your history teachers are a bunch of dupes or liars. Find out what "all" of the promises made to Abraham were, and determine who has actually fulfilled them. The Promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled by a people, but none have been accomplished by the so-called Jews. Again, test the promises of God to Abraham to see who has fulfilled them and forget the double talking preachers that say shit like when Jesus said Heaven and Earth he really meant the Temple ... what nonsense.

noone222 posted on 2006-07-04 20:15:43 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#97. To: noone222, Red Jones (#93)

Lastly, let me close with this challenge. Forget what the paid pulpit prostitutes have ever told you. They like your history teachers are a bunch of dupes or liars.

It seems you base your scriptures on someone named Willie Martin.
Find out what "all" of the promises made to Abraham were, and determine who has actually fulfilled them.
Let's start with this one:

Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land [that is] not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
[Ezekiel 34:11-13/John 10; First Virginia Charter 1606; Cross at Cape Henry 1607, THE US IS STILL A BRITISH COLONY, EXTRACTING TAXES FOR THE CROWN]

Gen 15:14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

Mic 4:1 — But in the last days it shall come to pass, [that] the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

++++ http://www.blueletterbi ble.org/tsk_b/Mic/4/1.html

Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Mic 4:4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make [them] afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken [it].

Mic 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

Mic 4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

Mic 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant [Jews], and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Mic 4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Mic 4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? [is there] no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.

Mic 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

Mic 4:11 Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.
[sound familiar?]
Mic 4:12 But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.

Mic 4:13 Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.

http://www.bluelette rbible.org/kjv/Mic/Mic004.html#1
The Promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled by a people, but none have been accomplished by the so-called Jews.
I think you'd be hard-pressed to find where I ever said they were.

Again, test the promises of God to Abraham to see who has fulfilled them and forget the double talking preachers that say shit like when Jesus said Heaven and Earth he really meant the Temple ... what nonsense.
Well, OK, let's see what the Bible actually says about Heaven and Earth:
Jesus as God, said:
Isa 45:18 — For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens;God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.
http://www.blueletter bible.org/tsk_b/Isa/45/18.html

As for the Lost Tribes, Anglo-Saxon, etc., God says He will draw all nations and tongues:

Isa 66:18 For I [know] their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

Isa 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, [to] Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, [to] Tubal, and Javan, [to] the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren [for] an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests [and] for Levites, saith the LORD.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed [If you can quote Willie Martin, I can quote Paul: Gal. 3:16-29] and your name remain. [This is the true Israel]

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa066.html#22
If there is a LITERAL New Heaven and Earth, why are there dead carcasses lying around?

Here is the "New Heaven" and the "New Earth". It comes when the TARES are taken out of it:

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat013.html#40
Sounds to me like THIS LITERAL HEAVEN AND EARTH IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE. Therefore, it seems Jesus must have been talking about ANOTHER 'Heaven and Earth'.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former [Old Covenant, Old Temple, Old City] shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create [NEW] Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in [NEW] Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit [them]; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree [are] the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they [are] the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Sounds like Heaven on Earth to me!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Correlating Passages 'I create'
Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto [NEW] Zion, Thou [art] my people.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle [= NEW TEMPLE, the CHURCH] of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. the former
Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit [it]; neither shall [that] be done any more.
-----------------------------------------------------

The old covenant and the old temple and the old city have passed away:

Hbr 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: ["They are not all Israel that are of Israel.....but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom009.html#6 ]

Hbr 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Hbr/Hbr008.html#13

[End of the OLD "Heaven and Earth"]
-----------------------------------------------------

They are replaced with a new covenant, a new temple [Know ye not that ye are the temple of God?], a new city, and a NEW LAW:

Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
http://www.blueletterbi ble.org/tsk_b/Jam/2/8.html

The New Covenant also has a new people, a new House of Israel, and you better not blaspheme them in whom the Holy Spirit dwells:
Jam 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
-

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Act 10:36 The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

Act 10:37 That word, [I say], ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

Act 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, [even] to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead.

Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God......

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

I wrote this last night, and meanwhile, unbeknownst to me, one of the kids' pets was getting sick, so I will probably be dealing with that for the rest of the day, and won't be able to finish reading or writing on this thread. I'm only going on for a quick second now to post this, because I have to keep the phone line open. I apologize for this being so long. I tried to see if I could trim it down any further, but I am distracted and couldn't really think. I hope it makes sense to you, and that we can all learn from it.
I still fail to see where God made His promises strictly to "white folks, or Anglo-Saxon blah blah blah". As an example read again Isaiah 53:10, and Acts 8:26-39, and please notice that this incident was sealed with a miracle. Something tells me Jesus knew way back then, we'd be having this discussion today.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-05 8:24:26 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#98. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#97)
I still fail to see where God made His promises strictly to "white folks, or Anglo-Saxon blah blah blah".

If you refer to my post you will see that I said 5 of the sons were most likely white, and it's possible that they all were, but impossible to gather enough evidence to support such a claim.
I appreciate your references to Isaiah because that Book's legitimacy can not be denied as it is the one Book of Scripture that has been found in its entirety at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls). My research has included some of Willie Martin's thoughts and commentary, as well as Gene Scott's, Sheldon Emery's, Comparet's, Pastor Barker, Pete Peters, George Gordon, and many, many others.
None of my conclusions are based upon Scriptures attributed to Paul unless they are in obvious agreement with Christ's own words expressed elsewhere by his "actual" disciples. And I ignore any preacher, pastor or priest that accepts the Ashkenazi Jews as the chosen.
You may have misunderstood what "I" said regarding the Lost Tribes, the Promises made by Abraham and their relevance to the present day situation. I said it is more important to recognize "who isn't" entitled to those promises than who is.
I'm a little short of time at the moment, but there is a lot I'd like to say and will in a little while.
Think on this in the mean time: Jesus is quoted by Matthew as saying:
Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
The above statement by the Messiah, coupled with his statements about having other folds has lead me to think that there is a difference between "redemption" and "salvation" ... "Redemption" is a legal term.

noone222 posted on 2006-07-05 13:23:17 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#99. To: All (#98)
Your response post is very long, and quotes a wide range of Scriptures ... could we strike up a dialogue and keep our interchanges relatively short, simple and directed to one subject at a time ?

noone222 posted on 2006-07-05 16:00:21 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#100. To: noone222, All (#99)
Thank you for bringing the matter of length of posts up.
It would be really helpful to those of us (I'm the biggest needer) who are not as well versed as y'all seem to be. Otherwise, someone might as well just post the whole Bible or book to make a point.
This has really been a good thread, an interesting one...it would be a shame to have people turn off because of feeling 'overwhelmed'. It tends to have the appearance of a BAC cut and paste....and I know that isn't the case with All the Kings personage.
I'll but out now and continue to follow the thread....

rowdee posted on 2006-07-05 16:38:18 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#101. To: rowdee (#100)
glad you like this thread rowdee.

Red Jones posted on 2006-07-06 0:19:32 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#102. To: Red Jones (#101)
It's a good learning experience, a way to broaden one's well of knowledge...none of the nasty rancor that so often crops up when discussing matters of religiousity.
I've just recently gone thru the O/T in a study that's taken over a year. It's a good feeling to recognize as you read thru some of the quoted scriptures that you just spent time in that book, or recalling specifically those verses.

rowdee posted on 2006-07-06 0:46:22 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
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