4um: Should Christians Be Subservient To This Government?

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Title: Should Christians Be Subservient To This Government?
Source: Romans 13
URL Source: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom013.html#1
Published: Jul 2, 2006
Author: christian bible
Post Date: 2006-07-02 20:11:00 by Red Jones
Keywords: None
Views: 6905
Comments: 117

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Romans 13:5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Romans 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Romans 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Romans 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].
a very provocative question in the title. I hope people will not be offended by it.
I have read some people's views here who criticize christians and say that the christians are overly-submissive to government's fascism.
I think there is a fine line, but a very important distinction still, between submitting to government's legitimate authority and supporting them in their evil. I try to do the former, but not the later.
I think we should be aware of the evil, but not supportive of it. Nevertheless, I personally feel we should take Romans 13 and similar verses seriously and submit to the authority that is put over us. I remember the story in the early chapters of Daniel when the Babylonians took over Jerusalem. Daniel submitted to their authority. but he told his friends that they would secretly keep the old rituals up even though the new king told them not to do this. He did not outwardly rebel, he did not raise up rebels. He only secretly obtained the things he needed and carried out the old rituals behind-closed-doors. And when the king came and told him to openly worship the new god he simply told the king that he would not do this. When the king told him he'd have him thrown in a furnace for defiance, then Daniel told the king that he would submit to this and that if this happened then his god was powerful enough to protect him from the furnace if he so chose to do so. Then the king threw him and his friends in the furnace. Then Daniel and his friends did not burn. Then the king ordered the court's accusers of Daniel to be thrown in the furnace instead. And he appointed Daniel to a high position knowing full well that he refused to worship the new god. And the king even paid respect to Daniel's god. To me Daniel was the model we should follow. He submitted to the legitimate authority of those over him here on earth. But he always worshiped god and not the king's false god. He was respectful of the authorities and did nothing to cause a rebellion. but he prevailed anyway with the help of god. To me Daniel is our model for today.
What say ye?
I think that the 'fallen-away' phenomenon is very real - that a large portion of the organized church has a faith that is against god, and yet they masquerade. And I think the 'deceived' factor is very strong. In these end-times many have beendeceived by the enemy. It is good not to be fallen-away. and it is good not to be deceived. but we still must at least submit to the authorities over us.
I keep telling people we are not going to defeat them. Until jesus returns. we should remember that the meek shall inherit the earth. The kingdom of heaven will come. The evil ones will be punished. Revenge is not ours', it is his. the sheep will be separated from the goats.
we must build our faith and do good works, look what it says in verse 3, the evil rulers cannot stop you when you do these good works. The things of man are being discredited in a powerful way. We cannot stop these events. we should be humble over them instead.
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#32. To: Red Jones (#0)
Nevertheless, I personally feel we should take Romans 13 and similar verses seriously and submit to the authority that is put over us.

Red, I commend to you this book:
The Mystery of Romans: The Jewish Context of Paul's Letter
The "powers that be ordained by God" referenced were not the pagan Roman Imperium, Caesar, or any of our present day would-be successors to Caesar. This is an horrific mistranslation/misapplication. In the context of the Letter to the Romans, a letter addressed to new Gentile Christians still possessed of all manner of pagan baggage and much in need of instruction in the oracles of God, instruction that could be had in only one place in the world of that time, namely the Jewish synagogues of the diasporah, the "powers that are ordained by God" are the leadership of the Jewish synagogues.
Remember, this letter was written before the schism between Church and Synagogue. Christianity at that time was still a sect within Judaism. Its leadership was entirely Jewish. And Gentile believers looked to Jews for instruction in the finer points of their faith. The centers for such instruction (the only place in a pagan world where the scriptures could be heard read and studied) were the local synagogues.
Had Gentile believers followed Paul's advice, the hard schism that later developed between Church and Synagogue with all of its tragic consequences for both Gentile and Jew might have been averted. Instead, this passage became twisted by a Paganized Church into a call for submission to Caesarism. This was nothing less than theological catastrophe.

Arator posted on 2006-07-03 0:45:21 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#34. To: Arator (#32)
so you're saying the authority mentioned in Romans 13 was the synagogue specifically, and had nothing to do with government?
but then there's the gospel verses where jesus said to render unto caesar what is caesar's and unto god what is god's.
but the type of authority you feel was meant in Romans 13 was not government regardless of those caesar verses from jesus? government is a different type of authority, a lesser authority; and you feel the original meaning did not mean government at all?
that is an interpretation that is not shared by most. but that doesn't mean it's a false interpretation.
I interpreted it to mean many types of authorities including government. but all authorities have their place and you don't have to respect them when they over-step their authority.
gotto admit - christians are like sheep, for better or worse. and this tyrant that rules over us has exploited that fact. but non-christians are like sheep too it has been proven in our country.

Red Jones posted on 2006-07-03 1:07:24 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#35. To: Red Jones (#34)
so you're saying the authority mentioned in Romans 13 was the synagogue specifically, and had nothing to do with government?

Exactly.
The thrust of Romans was all about averting a schism between Gentile believers and Jews.
The hope of Paul was that:
a) Gentile believers would submit to Jewish authority and learn the scriptures
b) Jews in the synagogues who did not yet believe would see the outworking of God in these new Gentile believers and come to faith in Yeshua themselves as a result.
But, even then, there was emerging among Gentile believers the notion that God had shifted his favor from Jews to Gentiles, that faith was a zero sum game, and that Gentile gain could only come at Jewish expense. Paul was teaching the opposite in Romans - that the divine plan was not to favor either Jew OR Gentile, but both Jew AND Gentile, united in one community of faith, and that it was imperative that new Gentile believers not act in ways that would impede their Jewish brethren from likewise coming to faith in their Messiah, Yeshua.
These are poor summaries of what is a deep and profound scholarly exegesis of Romans done by Nanos. I encourage you to read his book and come to your own conclusions.

Arator posted on 2006-07-03 1:30:25 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#37. To: Arator, All (#35)
Paul was teaching the opposite in Romans - that the divine plan was not to favor either Jew OR Gentile, but both Jew AND Gentile, united in one community of faith

A dandy reason to be VERY careful when reading Paul's writings.... The Jews keep their own traditions that are not the same as the Mosaic Law of the Bible. Their traditions are known as the Babylonian Talmud because that is where the rabbinical teachings originated. Yahshua the Christ condemned the Scribes and Pharisees for keeping their own, anti-Mosaic traditions, the "traditions of the elders." (Matt. Chap. 15.) It is those traditions, which were most vehemently condemned by Yahshua (Matt., Chaps. 15-28; 16:6) and which are today known as Judaism. James addresses his message to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. (James 1:1). By the time of Christ, the Twelve Tribes had already been established in the Caucasus, Europe and Asia Minor. The Jews of Judea were not expelled from Judea until around 70 A.D., well after these verses were composed. This is proof that James was not addressing Jews but rather Israelites. Yahshua said: "I come not but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." - Matt. 15:24; and "Go only to the house of Israel." - Matt. 10:6.

The chosen people (descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) were also to "separate themselves unto the Lord." -- Lev. 6:22 ."Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord." -- 2 Chron. 6:17. "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." -- Deu. 7:6. "For thou art an holy people unto Yahweh thy God; Yahweh, the LORD thy God, hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are on the face of the earth." -- Deu. 14:2. "And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken."-Deu. 26:19. "The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways." -- Deu. 28:9. "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people," -- 1 Peter 2:9.

The Anglo-Saxons are the direct, genetic descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel. The Assyrians had deported Beth-Omri (the House of King Omri, king of the 10 northern tribes) to the plains of Media, just south of the Caucasus Mountains. These deportations occurred between 745-715 B.C. These people became known as Scythians and Saccae before and during their migrations north through the Caucasus. Hence: Beth-Omri = Beth-Sak (House of Isaac) = the Caucasians = the Anglo-Saxons. "In Isaac shall thy seed be called." -- Gen. 21:12. Note that the Jews are not now, nor were they ever, known by the name of Isaac. Before these deportations, around 1500 B.C., large contingents of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin had already migrated from Egypt to Britain and Ireland before the Exodus. These two tribes of the House of Judah were merged back into the House of Isaac by the Saxon King, William the Conqueror. Completely separate and distinct are the Jews, who are composed of two distinct groups: the Ashkenazim and the Sephardim. The Sephardim are the older branch who are descended from the mixed marriages of Judahites and Edomites from about 150 B.C to 70 A.D. These people were not dispersed until Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman army under General Titus. It is to these people that Jesus said, "Ye are not of my sheep." -- John 10:26. The Sephardim are a mixed stock, including black African and many other racial admixtures, as the Jews themselves admit. As is evidenced in John 8:31-44, as well as in Matt. 23:35, where Yahshua accused them of the bloodshed of Abel: "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel." This can only mean that they are the descendants of Cain, who slew Abel. The Sephardim, therefore, have no claim to the Davidic inheritance because they are the children of the forbidden mixed marriages. They are not pure Israelites. We trace their origins back to Cain, whose father was the Serpent in the Garden. Their families and tribes, such as the Canaanites, Edomites, Hittites, and Amelekites, have historically been the enemies of true Israel, as they are today. The Khazar Jews (the Ashkenazim) are of primarily Turko/Mongolian descent. The Khazar tribes never claimed to be Shemites. Rather, they claimed descent from Japheth, Shem's brother. The twelve tribes were all Shemites because their father, Jacob/Israel was a Shemite. The Ashkenazi people, who comprise 90-95% of the Jewish people today, never were and are not now Shemites at all. They are Japhethites, Turks and Mongols. They converted to the religion of Judaism around 800 A.D. and did not have one drop of Shemitic blood in their veins! These facts make it very clear that the Modern Jew has absolutely no biblical claim to the land of Palestine. Both groups are impostors who wish to steal the inheritance of True Israel. "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the world be blessed." - Gen. 22:18. The Anglo-Saxons have given the world the Bible & Christianity, medicine, science & technology, high art, classical music, philosophy & metaphysics, the Magna Carta, and the Constitution of the United States, not to mention the feeding of the world through our agriculture. The Jews have given the world massive debt through usury, ethnic strife (especially with their false and violent claims on Palestine), special-interest politics (B'nai B'rith, the Anti-Defamation League, World Jewish Congress, the Jewish Defense League, Zionism, etc.), and decadence (pornography, organized crime, anti-Christian activism). In the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, the Jews were expelled from every nation in Europe because of their practice of usury and foreclosure and for practicing their sick and perverse Talmudic religion of deception. Name one country in the history of the world that has been blessed by the presence of the Jews!!! Even their own country seethes with constant turmoil. Its own economy cannot survive without continuous aid from the U.S. It would collapse from its own corruption. This, in spite of the fact that the world is filled with millionaire and billionaire Zionists. What is their money being used for? It is the Jews who PRETEND to be Israel so that they might reclaim the inheritance which their forefather, Esau, so foolishly sold to his brother, Jacob/Israel for a bowl of porridge. "Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance." - Matt. 21:38, Mark 12:7; Luke 20:14. Yahweh, through His prophet, Daniel, told us that in the Last Days, all things will be revealed. "Ye shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free."

The proof that the Jews are not of Judah is contained in the Book of Revelation:
"I know the blasphemy of them that which say they are Jews, and are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan." -- Rev. 2:9.
"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." -- Rev. 3:9. In Revelation 3:9, Jesus Christ is addressing His faithful followers. These followers cannot possibly be Jews, because the Jews have always denied Him. Jesus is saying that He will eventually make these liars come and worship at the feet of the Christians who are true to Him.
In both cases of this translation from the King James Version, the Greek word which is translated as 'Jews' is, in Strong's Concordance, the word (2453) Ioudaios, meaning "belonging to the tribe of Judah," and the word (2455) Ioudas, meaning the posterity of Judah. Interestingly, there is a related word, word number 2451, Ioudaikos, which is translated as "resembling a Judean, Jewish." To "resemble" someone is not the same as being someone. One who resembles can easily impersonate the real thing. Since we must always distinguish between the real thing and something which resembles the real thing, we must have different words for these objects. Unfortunately, the word ‘Jews’ has been used for both groups. So, the accurate translation of Rev. 2:9 is this: "I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Judahites, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." The Jews, who are in reality, Ioudaikos, not Ioudaios (impostors, not real), have been pretending to be Israelites since the Jewish Dispersion of 70 A.D. Here we see the beginning of the great deception that the religion of Judaism has performed for the last two thousand years of history. Judaism was not practiced by the Israelites. It was only practiced by the followers of the scribes and Pharisees. And the Pharisees were not ‘Ioudas’, Judah. They were, rather, ‘Ioudaikos’, only the resemblance of Judah. (John 8:44). In fact, the religion called Judaism has never been practiced by the House of Israel because the House of Israel was already scattered, from the Assyrian captivity starting in 745 B.C., into the "wilderness" of Europe and Asia Minor. The only exception to this rule has been when non-Jews convert to Judaism. Note well that the Jews declare descent through the mother. In contradistinction, the Old Testament and the New Testament declare descent only through the father. Read Matthew, Chapter 1 and Luke, Chapter 3 if you doubt this.

The Jews themselves confirm, indirectly, the fact that they are not the people of the blessing because they freely admit that "Everywhere we go, we are persecuted," "Everywhere we go, the specter of ‘anti-Semitism’ follows us." The question is: Does it follow them or do they bring it with them? It is a historical fact that in every nation that they have dwelt, they have always agitated for special privileges for themselves at the expense of the native population. Two modern examples of this fact, without the citizens being aware, are the building of holocaust museums at taxpayer expense and the passing of laws against "denying the holocaust." These are egregious examples of how the Jews manipulate the societies which have blessed them with a "welcome in." Contrary to what Genesis 12:3 states, the Jews have always returned the blessing with a curse by abusing the hospitality of the host nations. This is proof that the prophecy does not apply to them.

innieway posted on 2006-07-03 5:10:31 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#41. To: innieway (#37)
you make a lot of great arguments and have a lot of good scripture to back it up.
I agree with most of what you say, but the one thing I am skeptical on is the idea that Anglo-Saxons are direct genetic descendants of the 12 tribes. I thank you for sharing that because I know that some believe that and it is considered a taboo thing to think. I thought that the 'chosen people' who inherit these blessings of god were to be a people who believe, not a people who are genetic descendants of the early hebrews. So I am open to the idea that America is the new Jerusalem, but I would think this is done because of the faith that many Americans have or had in the past, not because of genetic descent from early Israel.
I agree completely though that Revelation 2:9 & Revelation 3:9 show that those who claim this blessing in modern-day Israel are frauds.
I thought there were verses somewhere in Old Testament that specifically say that those who inherit the blessings of old Israel are not genetic descendents, but spiritual descendants (those who believe) instead. I wish I knew where those verses are.

Red Jones posted on 2006-07-03 9:31:25 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#46. To: Red Jones (#41)
the one thing I am skeptical on is the idea that Anglo-Saxons are direct genetic descendants of the 12 tribes.

Isaac was living in Canaan, and this is where his sons Esau and Jacob were born. Esau was the first born, and was red (Genesis 25:25). Jacob was the younger of the twins. Jacob is the one that would later have his name changed by The Creator to Israel.
When the time came for Jacob to marry, his father Isaac forbade him to marry of the women in Canaan (Genesis 28:1). Jacob was instructed to go to their "homeland" and choose a wife from among the daughters of Laban, who was Jacob's uncle (Jacob's mother's brother - Genesis 28:2). If you look up Laban in Strong's Concordance, you will find that the name means "to be white"!!!
I used to think somewhat the same as you that the "chosen" were believers more than genetic. But I began to wonder why there was such a tedious accounting of lineages in the book of Genesis especially. So I began to look up each name in the Strong's Concordance, and started linking genealogies.... Believe me, it's all in there for a reason - to show the truth to us as to who we are, and put the puzzle pieces together. This whole "Jew" thing is a huge fraud - call it the world's greatest case of "Identity theft"!!
In the linking of genealogies, it is important to note that Ashkenaz (remember Ashkenazi jews) was a descendant of Japeth, NOT Shem... We get the word Semite from the name Shem. Interestingly, the name Japeth means (per Strong's Concordance) expansion.... And expand they have - now making up by far the largest percentage of modern "Jewry"!!! But they are NOT Semites, never were, never will be; and have never been favored by the Creator nor the ones His promises were made to.. Those would be the descendants of Shem (whose name means honor).
So yes, genealogy is VERY important, AND Anglo Saxons are direct descendants of Jacob - the 12 tribes of Israel... However, that doesn't mean that ONLY Anglo Saxons are the direct descendants. Jacob married 2 daughters of Laban - Leah and Rachel.. He had first fallen madly in love with Rachel (who apparently was quite the looker), and was basically TRICKED into marrying Leah. Anyhow, with Leah, Jacob fathered 4 children, but Rachel was barren. So Rachel instructed her handmaid to have children for her with Jacob! There were 2 children born of this "pairing". Later, Leah also instructed HER handmaid to bear children by Jacob - which resulted in 2 more children.. (We are now up to 8 kids) Then Leah bore 3 more. And finally, Rachel bore one (bringing the total to 12)- they named him Joseph.. (See Genesis chapters 29, 30). It was Joseph that was sold into slavery in Egypt, and Joseph that was so favored by the Creator that he eventually wound up holding the second highest position of authority in Egypt - second only to Pharoah; and his descendants during that 400 years of slavery turned into a HUGE number that were exiled from Egypt by Moses... Anyhow, back to the Anglo Saxon deal, there are 4 of the 12 tribes of Israel that were born to mothers that we basically have no genealogical background to - nor any clue as to their ethnicity, but there is little doubt that the other 8 (of the lineage of Laban) were white.

innieway posted on 2006-07-03 12:24:51 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#56. To: innieway (#46)
You have posted some incredibly interesting things, and I want to go back and read them more closely. However, I think what you are preaching here is racist and harmful to Christ's message. He came to draw ALL people to Himself. Contemplate John 3:16 for a minute. Also contemplate I Timothy 1:4 : "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do."
It's not about genes, but faith.
"In Isaac shall thy seed be called." -- Gen. 21:12.
Let's take the whole passage, and understand that the Bible says: Search the scripture, every word of prophecy will have its mate. The Bible is full of hidden pictures, that aren't always fully understood until it is time. [Speaking of the bondwoman Hagar, and her son Ishmael, whom Sarah wanted cast out]: Genesis 21:9 And Sarah saw the son Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. 11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. 12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in they sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for IN ISAAC SHALL THY SEED BE CALLED. 13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed. [Now here I want to mention that it was JESUS who appeared to Hagar in the desert to tell her to go back to her mistress, and that HE would increase Ishmael's seed. Even though Ishmael was not the seed or bloodline, which would produce Christ, God still cared.]
Read Galatians 3:16-29. Verse 16. Now to Abraham and his SEED were the pomises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy SEED, WHICH IS CHRIST. Verse 26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ." 27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28. For there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29. And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Now see the ALLEGORY in Galatians 4 about the "children of the flesh" versus the "children of the promise". The children of the flesh [the physical seed of Abraham, whoever they may be], have no standing under the NEW Covenant, unless they have accepted Christ. The "children of the promise" are all those [whatever race] who take hold of the New Covenant. The children of the flesh WHO HAVE NOT ACCEPTED CHRIST have become the children of the bondwoman [Cast out the children of the bondwoman for they shall not be heir with my son.], UNLESS they take hold of the New Covenant. It doesn't matter what race they are, if they have accepted Christ, they have become the children of the FREEWOMAN and of Abraham. People of ALL RACES are the New Israel.
Remember Jesus said, I have others that are not of this fold. Them too must I bring. See Isaiah 53:10. I think it is a much-neglected verse. Of course, the Jews, I understand, won't read Isaiah 53 in their Synagogues. Small wonder, for it speaks of Christ. Isaiah 53:10 : Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand."
This very clearly foretells who are the seed of Christ [those who accept HIM as the one-time sacrifice for sin]. Though He was CUT OFF [Isaiah 53:8; Daniel 9:26], those who believe in Him become His seed, and thus "declare His generation". THIS is the seed spoken of in Genesis 12:2-3. Genesis 12:2-3 refers to people of FAITH. Think about Rachel weeping for her lost children [Matthew 2:18]. Rachel's firstborn by the bondwoman Bilhah [Dan] was hers by ADOPTION, setting the precedent for her adoption of all the races through Christ, and Rachel will be comforted.
Read Acts 8:26-39. Recall the Ethiopians were black [Can an Ethiopian change his skin, or a leopard his spots?] Now notice that the Angel of the Lord [the Angel of the Lord is often JESUS] sends Philip to preach to the Ethiopian. The Ethiopian was well on his way to understanding what a lot of church-goers don't understand today. Note the Ethiopian is BAPTIZED IN CHRIST. [Galatians 3:27]. The black Ethiopian is just as much a part of Israel as anyone else, and as the scripture says, becomes "an heir according to the promise." [Galatians 3:29].
The same holds true for every other race, even Edom. God has a remnant of them as well:
Amos 9:11 In that day will I raise up the TABERNACLE of David that is fallen, , and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old. 12 That they may possess the REMNANT OF EDOM, AND OF THE HEATHEN, WHICH ARE CALLED BY MY NAME, saith the LORD that doeth this.
Likewise:
The Sephardim, therefore, have no claim to the Davidic inheritance because they are the children of the forbidden mixed marriages. They are not pure Israelites. We trace their origins back to Cain, whose father was the Serpent in the Garden. Their families and tribes, such as the Canaanites, Edomites, Hittites, and Amelekites, have historically been the enemies of true Israel, as they are today.
You named two of the forbidden tribes that THE ISRAELITES MARRIED INTO! Judges 3:5-6. The Israelites were not a pure race. God accepted strangers into his "household" if they took hold of his Old Covenant. It's not an issue under the New Covenant, because membership in the House of the LORD is BY FAITH.
Let's talk about Japheth. Genesis 9:27 God shall ENLARGE Japheth, and he SHALL DWELL IN THE TENTS OF SHEM..... Remember Jesus said that the first would be last, and the last would be first? Look at Genesis 10:1. The order of Noah's sons are SHEM, Ham, and JAPHETH [father of the Gentiles]. Then the order is reversed in the naming of the families, JAPHETH being the first one named in verse 2. See Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob,and to restore the PRESERVED of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
See Isaiah 66:19-21. God says He will make LEVITES [priests] of the GENTILES and ALL NATIONS. Rev. 5:9-10 says God has chosen people from EVERY RACE to be kings and priests on the earth. Therefore the Ashkenazis "oppose themselves", since the promises were made to them as well, if they accept Jesus as LORD!
Go back to the rift between the two houses, and see how the Israelites felt about playing second fiddle and slaves to their brethren in the Kingdom of Judah.
1Ki 12:16 — So when all Israel saw that the king hearkened not unto them, the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? neither [have we] inheritance in the son of Jesse: to your tents, O Israel: now see to thine own house, David. So Israel departed unto their tents.
http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/1Ki/1Ki012.html#16
Look at how the Jews claim to be the chosen ones on the basis of birth and genes [even though we know it is a fraud]. Think of the hard feelings it causes, not to mention the violence and thievery that is the result. Think of how someone sitting in a hut in Africa, or a Palestinian whose home has been bombed, and their family killed, thinks, we have no part in their God, so why should we care or listen? Where is their hope? Would Jesus want people left with no hope? Jesus came to repair the breach, to tie up old wounds, to bring salvation and eternal life to ALL who believe in Him. He sends us to preach the gospel of His kingdom, not to preach division. He sends us to bring hope of a better day, when the meek shall inherit the earth. Race has nothing to do with it. John 3:15 For God so loved THE WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOMSOEVER believed, would not perish, but have everlasting life.
I hope you don't take this as criticism. I have seen the view you gave on here before, by others. Today I just couldn't keep silent any longer. People are dying out there, and it is all so very unnecessary. The devil wants to separate us from each other and from God, because he knows his days are numbered, and he'd like to take as many of us with him as he can.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-03 19:56:53 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#58. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#56)
Would Jesus want people left with no hope? Jesus came to repair the breach, to tie up old wounds, to bring salvation and eternal life to ALL who believe in Him.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Most Christians would agree that Christ is God, that they are one. God said he hated Esau in his mothers womb, Jacob he loved neither child having done any wrong. Where was Esau's hope ?
Most Christians equate faith with "believing" ... satan believes ... will he receive salvation unto eternal life ?
I'm glad that you mentioned the often ignored scripture where Jesus states that he has many folds ... some may be muslims, some may be Krishnas ... I don't think it's for me to question since they're His folds to do with as he chooses.
Todays Christian community has all but forgotten the Old Testament. They have gone headlong for Paul's commentary on grace, and ignore the fact that Christ himself stated that he didn't come to change the law, but to fulfill or establish it. He even went so far as to say that not a jot or tittle of the law would pass before heaven and earth passed away.
[Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. ]
Too many of us have bought the bullshit spewed from the pulpits of pastoral prostitutes, that make salvation palatable for their own economic benefit. They promote inter-racial marriages which God forbid, they excuse homosexuality which God forbid, they have the kids dress up like ghouls on Halloween (Night of the dead) they have Easter Egg Hunts on Easter Sunday ... which is a pagan fertility ritual in remembrance of Ashtoreth, they promote Christmas which is another pagan day of worship for Semiramis, and they even put Christmas trees in their churches which are forbidden at Jeremiah 10 (The Book of Jeremiah).
Those that say God loves everybody are full of shit. It just ain't so.
The Scripture that made me really think about finding the truth was one where Christ says at the Judgment there will be "many" that will say "but lord we healed the sick and cast out demons in your name" ... to which he will reply "DEPART FROM ME FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU" ... explain that !
There is a grand delusion happening in these times. The preachers and priests of baal have filled the pulpits, like they have for 6000 years, they talk a lot of nonsense twisting scriptures by telling people ... Oh this was meant in a spiritual context, or ... this is an allegory.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

noone222 posted on 2006-07-03 21:01:38 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#81. To: noone222, BTP Holdings, Red Jones, All (#58)
Christ himself stated that he didn't come to change the law, but to fulfill or establish it. He even went so far as to say that not a jot or tittle of the law would pass before heaven and earth passed away.
[Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. ]

I was two hours into replying to your post, when I went to a google cache, and THEN to the original URL, which proceeded to crash my little computer. I tried it again, to see if it was just because I had too much stuff on it. Nope, it did it again. I lost everything. I have some things to do, but God Willing, I will be back to answer your post, point by point. I am a little slow, so in the meantime, would you please clarify for me, that you believe only the "white ten tribes of Israel" are true Israel, and that peoples of other nations, tribes, and tongues, like the Ethiopian are not? Because if this is what you believe, everything in me recoils at the thought. If this is the God you worship, it is no wonder so many people are turned off. If this is not the case, please forgive me, and I will not spend any more time on that particular issue.
The article that crashed my computer: I'd say it doesn't fit into someone's agenda, so I'd recommend everyone make a copy and spread it far and wide, particularly in Tim LaHaye territory. I agree with this, except that I believe God IS building His kingdom on earth [I will explain if anyone wants me to. One thought: Jesus said, My kingdom is not NOW of this world.]:
Global Elite Promoting ‘End Times’ Myth

Television gurus preaching a fraudulent “end times” and “last days” theory popularized in the 19th century are helping lay the groundwork for world government by corralling good Christians into supporting a doctrine that has no Biblical basis.
True Christian fundamentalism, based on the teachings of the Bible takes the Bible at its word and accepts that Christ accomplished all that he intended to do while on Earth and that His kingdom is here and is within you. That’s the powerful thesis put forth by John Anderson, producer of the video The Last Days. On Dec. 16, Anderson made a return appearance on Radio Free America (RFA), the weekly call-in talk forum sponsored by American Free Press with host Tom Valentine. (A transcript of Anderson’s first appearance on RFA was published in AFP’s issue No. 19.)
What follows is an edited transcript of the interview. Comments by Valentine are in boldface. Anderson’s responses are in regular text.

The person responsible for popularizing this clap-trap that the “end times” and “last days” are coming was a shady character named Cyrus I. Scofield.
That’s true, but Scofield was not the originator. Scofield got these false teachings from John Darby, who got it from Edward Irving and Margaret McDonald, a 14-year-old girl who had a dream and began writing letters to Irving describing what she thought was going to happen.
Darby was one of the Plymouth Brethren and when Scofield got hold of what Darby and others were teaching, he produced the Scofield Bible in 1909 and there have been many revisions of it since then. Although they never say “who” revised Scofield’s work.
Researchers have said that it was a powerful New York attorney, Samuel Untermyer, who was instrumental in arranging for the Oxford Press, which was controlled by the Rothschild banking family, patrons of the Zionist movement, to publish the Scofield “bible.”
Students of history recall that Untermyer, who was a major player in the Zionist movement, was the one who blackmailed President Woodrow Wilson with the love letters that Wilson sent to his mistress, a certain Mrs. Peck. The history of this sordid affair was described in The Barnes Review* in its March/April 2000 issue. In its January/ February 2001 issue, The Barnes Review described Untermyer’s famous “holy war” speech that helped launch World War II.
So many people today believe that the words of Scofield are the words of the scripture. I tell people that if you’ve got a Scofield “bible,” then throw it away.
Most people who call themselves Christians do not study and read God’s word for themselves or they allow their thinking to be influenced what they have been told based on the teachings of Scofield.
If you look at the Tim LaHaye series, Left Behind, he and his associate have each made some $10 million on this, playing on the fear and unknowing faith of the Christian public. Doom and gloom sells, but truth does not.
Thanks to the influence of Scofield and his sponsors, Untermyer and the Rothschild family, many Christians today believe that God promised a certain tract of land in the Middle East to the people we know today as Israelis.
You are referring to the promise that God made to Abraham. God keeps his word and he certainly did. In Joshua 21, verses 43-45, it says that the Lord God gave unto Israel all the land. So God did fulfill the promise that he made to Abraham.
But was the promise of this land to those known as the Hebrews a promise that this would be their land forever?
No, it was not. First of all, the old covenant between God and the Hebrews was conditional. Although God kept his word, there was nothing in that promise that it would be that way forever. The old covenant was conditional.
The key word is “if.” That is, if the Hebrews kept their part in their covenant with God. But all throughout scripture the prophets continue to predict that the Hebrews will break that covenant by disobeying God and that, eventually, they will lose it all.
And eventually, they did lose it all. This is what is important: it was never solely an ethnic issue as to who “Israel” was. The issue always had to do with those who had faith and believed in God.
For example, the United States is often referred to as a “Christian nation.” That does not mean that everyone in the United States is a Christian. But those who follow Christ by faith and by faith alone are of that spiritual seed.
In Numbers 9:14, if strangers came in and kept the ordinances and the males were circumcised, they were accepted as a part of Israel. So it was not that this exclusive, nationalistic issue that many people try to hang onto. Spiritual Israel was always the issue.
God said that Israel as a racial entity was going to be the one that the prophecies were made to and the messiah was going to come through. God divorced Israel but he did not divorce Judah, because the messiah had to come through Judah, as the prophecy was made in Genesis 49:10.
Remember the parable that Jesus used about wineskin? He said you did not put new wine into an old wineskin. The issue was that the new covenant was not going to be accepted by old covenant Israel.
That’s the key thing: people with power in this world refused to accept God’s prophecy and what He had brought about. You have people who call themselves “Christians” who believe that this “Israel” of today is still the Promised Land and that God’s promise is going on in perpetuity and that God has a hand in this modern-day political mess in the Middle East and that we have an “end times” coming. They suggest that Christ effectively failed and did not fulfill God’s plan.
That is exactly what dispensational theology teaches: The Jews rejected the kingdom and, as a result, it was put on hold. That’s utter nonsense. When they came to Christ and tried to make him king after He had fed the 5,000, he slipped away from them. He had not come to set up a physical kingdom. That was never His intent. It was always a spiritual kingdom with a spiritual people.
To expect Christ to return and rule over a literal kingdom is to believe that everything Christ did when he was here on Earth was a failure. How could the Son of God be a failure?
Correct. The people who are saying that Christ failed and has to return are suggesting that God was caught off guard and He had to come up with a “Plan B.” That’s absurd. Yet we still have many evangelical Christians believing this nonsense, thanks to Scofield.
The historical and Biblical truths about the destruction of Jerusalem are not something that is widely taught to Christians in America today. Christians are not taught that this was the fulfillment of God’s promise and was literally the hand of God Himself destroying the old order completely and totally.
Every Jew knew that the “Heaven and the Earth” was the temple. That’s what Jesus meant when He said that “Heaven and Earth” would pass but that His word would not pass. That is the prophecy of Isaiah 65: the New Jerusalem that came out of Heaven, the new “Heaven and Earth” that John spoke about in Revelation 21 when he said he saw a new Heaven and Earth and no more sea. What John was saying was that there was no more separation, no more exclusivity. Now God’s kingdom was open to all.
The destruction of Jerusalem and the physical destruction of the old temple by the Roman armies was a signal that God’s kingdom was now in place. Christ predicted in Matthew 24 what would happen, and the truth is that what happened in Jerusalem in the times of Titus—the Roman who destroyed Jerusalem—you cannot find anything else in history to match it for horrible events.
Christ said that the whole system that the Pharisees stood for was going to be destroyed. His disciples came to him on the Mount of Olives and asked, “When shall these things be?” Every one of them knew that there was going to be a new Heaven and Earth, a new age, a new covenant. Christ described to them all that would happen before it would transpire.
Today people say that we are living in “the last days” and the world is coming to an end, but in Luke 21 (which is parallel to Matthew 24 and Mark 13), Christ said, “Take heed that you be not deceived for many shall come in my name, saying, ‘I am Christ. The end draweth near.” He said you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars and then said that there would be wrath upon “this people.” That’s the key: he’s referring to the flesh-and-blood individuals he was talking to at that time. The issue in Luke 21 is that he said that only the apostles themselves would be able to say when the end had come. That means that anyone after them would be a false prophet if they were predicting the end times had come to Earth.
The prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem was made to those people in that land, not to the whole world and that is another key to understanding all of this.
The people of Jerusalem practically ate each other. It was a horrendous end time in the most classic sense.
Josephus, the historian, even said that if Titus, the Roman, had not lifted his finger, the Jews of the time would have probably destroyed themselves from within. More than a million were killed and, at the end, only 100,000 were left. They went into captivity.
There is a well-known Christian columnist, Cal Thomas, who seems to believe that everything Israeli leader Ariel Sharon does is directed by God Himself.
That is the sentiment today: that everything Israel does is because it is ordained by God.
The original “Israel” was dissolved by God, and if you look at the world today from a correct Biblical sense, based upon what we have in the Bible, there is no such thing as a “Jew.”
The Jewish Encyclopedia itself says there is no such thing as a Jewish race. There is only a Jewish religion now and that is what came out of Babylon and had nothing to do with the Bible and its times.
Is today’s Judaism the religion of the tribe of Judah?
Predominantly today, yes. Under the years of Babylonian captivity they came up with the synagogue-type of Judaism that is being practiced today. When you start looking at the Jewish Talmud, you find things to tally contrary to God’s word, yet there are some today who say that “Christianity came out of Judaism,” and that is absurd. We are not a Judeo-Christian country. The United States started out as a Godly, Christian country. Not all of those who founded this country were Christian but at least the ideas of the Bible were incorporated into our nation by many of the Founding Fathers.
God had his prophets on the Earth and when Christ fulfilled the promise, the temple was gone and the old way of doing things was wiped out.
It was fulfilled. It’s amazing to me that there are those who don’t believe it. We say “trust in Jesus” and “take him at His word,” but many don’t.
Every single person has Jesus right there if he so chooses. It has nothing to do with race or sex or height or anything. God’s kingdom is within us.
It is open to any and all who believe in the finished work of Jesus Christ. H

* For information on ordering issues of The Barnes Review, call (877) 773-9077, email barnesrev@hotmail.com or write P.O. Box 15877, Washington, D.C. 20003.
URL SHOULD be: http://www.americanfreepress.net/RFA_Articles/Global_Elite_Promoting__En d_Ti/glo bal_elite_promoting__end_ti.html

noone222, after reading this, do you still want me to continue? I had about 28 Blueletterbible windows open to refute what you said, on one point alone. I'll be happy to pull them up again, if need be. I'm not trying to be cranky, but God is no racist, and I won't let him be construed as such.
I noticed http://historicist.com has/had this article. I did not check to see if it is still up.
BTP, is there something up with americanfreepress?

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-04 15:00:39 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#93. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#81)
(1). Every Jew knew that the “Heaven and the Earth” was the temple. That’s what Jesus meant when He said that “Heaven and Earth” would pass but that His word would not pass.

(1). This conclusion is ridiculous, and even dangerous. If Jesus wanted to say that the Temple would pass before his law passed ... that's what he would have said. To manufacture such an interpretation leaves all Scripture subject to conjecture. God cannot lie, but whomever determined this "loose interpretation" has the ability. The Scriptures are not given to "private" interpretation. Let God be true and all men liars (including Paul).
As far as whether or not I believe the Ten Lost Tribes of Jacob/Israel were "all" white; I don't think it possible to determine the exact genetic make-up of all ten of the so-called lost tribes. However, some of them being white is most probable. Jacob (whose name was changed to Israel) had children by four women, two of which bore 5 sons that were most likely white.
Reuben, Levi, Simeon, Judah and Joseph were probably white. The other sons were born of two sisters that were handmaidens, of which their ethnicity is unknown. It should be noted however that Jacob's mother had recommended that he marry his cousins, the daughters of Laban (her own brother) so as not to marry outside their own race. It's possible that the handmaidens were white as well, but I don't have enough real evidence to support that as being fact.
Both Sarah, Abraham's wife, and Rebecca, Isaac's wife (Jacob's mom) are described as "fair" complexioned. The name Laban, (who was Rebecca's brother, Jacob's uncle and the father of two of Jacob's wives, means "whited", or "to be white". King David of Israel, descended from Jacob through Judah is said to be "ruddy complected". There are many references in the Scriptures to these things, but the politically correct churches don't teach it.
Many people make statements like "I believe this" or "I believe that" and the truth doesn't give a tinkers damn what people choose to believe. To be frank, I didn't want to believe these truths either when they were related to me. I thought, like everyone else does, that these people calling themselves Jews were the chosen people of promise. That's what everyone had told me my whole life and I was angered by the person that tried to tell me these things.
I determined to prove him wrong by doing the research necessary to refute what he was saying. I did the research and had to apologize for my ignorance, he was right. The more I searched, the more evidence I found to support the very subject I was trying to disprove.
As a matter of fact, doing the research to prove my own political correctness, and that I was not a bigot or white racist, actually opened the Scriptures to me for the first time, enabling me to understand many things that were formerly obscurities that made me ask the question, "what do these Scriptures have to do with me" ? Like so much else that we have been lied to about, this was just another one of those things.
Then, after realizing that whites were probably part of the lost tribes of Israel, I thought, so what. I haven't done anything remarkable, so what's the point. And I still have questions, lots of them. But none of them have to do with who the Ten Tribes are in reality, but more importantly "WHO THEY ARE NOT".
And they definitely ARE NOT WHO WE HAVE BEEN TOLD THEY ARE. And this international lie has put us on the path to a nuclear disaster beyond comprehension. What's worse, is that the lie is promoted by people that should read and understand the Scriptures, but instead "ignorantly" call people like me a hater or a bigot based on their emotions alone and not on what the Bible actually states as fact.
I'm stubborn so I understand it when I see it in others. That's why I won't shut up either. I'm so sickened by the deeds of these people that go unchallenged because they have conned the world into believing a huge lie. Maybe like innieway said, an Identity theft amounting to "the crime of the century".
Lastly, let me close with this challenge. Forget what the paid pulpit prostitutes have ever told you. They like your history teachers are a bunch of dupes or liars. Find out what "all" of the promises made to Abraham were, and determine who has actually fulfilled them. The Promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled by a people, but none have been accomplished by the so-called Jews. Again, test the promises of God to Abraham to see who has fulfilled them and forget the double talking preachers that say shit like when Jesus said Heaven and Earth he really meant the Temple ... what nonsense.

noone222 posted on 2006-07-04 20:15:43 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#97. To: noone222, Red Jones (#93)

Lastly, let me close with this challenge. Forget what the paid pulpit prostitutes have ever told you. They like your history teachers are a bunch of dupes or liars.

It seems you base your scriptures on someone named Willie Martin.
Find out what "all" of the promises made to Abraham were, and determine who has actually fulfilled them.
Let's start with this one:

Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land [that is] not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
[Ezekiel 34:11-13/John 10; First Virginia Charter 1606; Cross at Cape Henry 1607, THE US IS STILL A BRITISH COLONY, EXTRACTING TAXES FOR THE CROWN]

Gen 15:14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

Mic 4:1 — But in the last days it shall come to pass, [that] the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

++++ http://www.blueletterbi ble.org/tsk_b/Mic/4/1.html

Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Mic 4:4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make [them] afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken [it].

Mic 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

Mic 4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

Mic 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant [Jews], and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Mic 4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Mic 4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? [is there] no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.

Mic 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

Mic 4:11 Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.
[sound familiar?]
Mic 4:12 But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.

Mic 4:13 Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.

http://www.bluelette rbible.org/kjv/Mic/Mic004.html#1
The Promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled by a people, but none have been accomplished by the so-called Jews.
I think you'd be hard-pressed to find where I ever said they were.

Again, test the promises of God to Abraham to see who has fulfilled them and forget the double talking preachers that say shit like when Jesus said Heaven and Earth he really meant the Temple ... what nonsense.
Well, OK, let's see what the Bible actually says about Heaven and Earth:
Jesus as God, said:
Isa 45:18 — For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens;God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.
http://www.blueletter bible.org/tsk_b/Isa/45/18.html

As for the Lost Tribes, Anglo-Saxon, etc., God says He will draw all nations and tongues:

Isa 66:18 For I [know] their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

Isa 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, [to] Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, [to] Tubal, and Javan, [to] the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren [for] an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests [and] for Levites, saith the LORD.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed [If you can quote Willie Martin, I can quote Paul: Gal. 3:16-29] and your name remain. [This is the true Israel]

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa066.html#22
If there is a LITERAL New Heaven and Earth, why are there dead carcasses lying around?

Here is the "New Heaven" and the "New Earth". It comes when the TARES are taken out of it:

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat013.html#40
Sounds to me like THIS LITERAL HEAVEN AND EARTH IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE. Therefore, it seems Jesus must have been talking about ANOTHER 'Heaven and Earth'.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former [Old Covenant, Old Temple, Old City] shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create [NEW] Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in [NEW] Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit [them]; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree [are] the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they [are] the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Sounds like Heaven on Earth to me!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Correlating Passages 'I create'
Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto [NEW] Zion, Thou [art] my people.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle [= NEW TEMPLE, the CHURCH] of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. the former
Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit [it]; neither shall [that] be done any more.
-----------------------------------------------------

The old covenant and the old temple and the old city have passed away:

Hbr 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: ["They are not all Israel that are of Israel.....but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom009.html#6 ]

Hbr 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Hbr/Hbr008.html#13

[End of the OLD "Heaven and Earth"]
-----------------------------------------------------

They are replaced with a new covenant, a new temple [Know ye not that ye are the temple of God?], a new city, and a NEW LAW:

Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
http://www.blueletterbi ble.org/tsk_b/Jam/2/8.html

The New Covenant also has a new people, a new House of Israel, and you better not blaspheme them in whom the Holy Spirit dwells:
Jam 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
-

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Act 10:36 The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

Act 10:37 That word, [I say], ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

Act 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, [even] to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead.

Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God......

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

I wrote this last night, and meanwhile, unbeknownst to me, one of the kids' pets was getting sick, so I will probably be dealing with that for the rest of the day, and won't be able to finish reading or writing on this thread. I'm only going on for a quick second now to post this, because I have to keep the phone line open. I apologize for this being so long. I tried to see if I could trim it down any further, but I am distracted and couldn't really think. I hope it makes sense to you, and that we can all learn from it.
I still fail to see where God made His promises strictly to "white folks, or Anglo-Saxon blah blah blah". As an example read again Isaiah 53:10, and Acts 8:26-39, and please notice that this incident was sealed with a miracle. Something tells me Jesus knew way back then, we'd be having this discussion today.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-05 8:24:26 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#98. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#97)
I still fail to see where God made His promises strictly to "white folks, or Anglo-Saxon blah blah blah".

If you refer to my post you will see that I said 5 of the sons were most likely white, and it's possible that they all were, but impossible to gather enough evidence to support such a claim.
I appreciate your references to Isaiah because that Book's legitimacy can not be denied as it is the one Book of Scripture that has been found in its entirety at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls). My research has included some of Willie Martin's thoughts and commentary, as well as Gene Scott's, Sheldon Emery's, Comparet's, Pastor Barker, Pete Peters, George Gordon, and many, many others.
None of my conclusions are based upon Scriptures attributed to Paul unless they are in obvious agreement with Christ's own words expressed elsewhere by his "actual" disciples. And I ignore any preacher, pastor or priest that accepts the Ashkenazi Jews as the chosen.
You may have misunderstood what "I" said regarding the Lost Tribes, the Promises made by Abraham and their relevance to the present day situation. I said it is more important to recognize "who isn't" entitled to those promises than who is.
I'm a little short of time at the moment, but there is a lot I'd like to say and will in a little while.
Think on this in the mean time: Jesus is quoted by Matthew as saying:
Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
The above statement by the Messiah, coupled with his statements about having other folds has lead me to think that there is a difference between "redemption" and "salvation" ... "Redemption" is a legal term.

noone222 posted on 2006-07-05 13:23:17 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#103. To: noone222, Red Jones (#98)
If you refer to my post you will see that I said 5 of the sons were most likely white, and it's possible that they all were, but impossible to gather enough evidence to support such a claim.

I remember you saying that and that that comes from the brother of Rebekah, Laban, which you said means "white". I was in the process of researching that earlier today, when my computer crashed, and I lost all my links. However, I made some notes, and Laban is Strong's #03837, which means "white". 1)Son of Bethuel brother of Rebekah father of Leah and Rachel 2) a wilderness encampment of the Israelites. It also comes from several root words:
#03836 which comes from #03835:
1)to be white a) (Hiphil) 1) to make white, become white, purify
to show whiteness, grow white
b) (Hithpael) to become white, be purified (ethical)
2) (Qual) to make bricks.
Laban was also a Syrian. Were Syrians more "white" back then? I seriously don't know. I tend to think of Syrians being more dark-skinned. If not, was Laban white, or is his name actually symbolic of God making him and his seed "white" as in "pure", foreshadowing the ingathering of all nations to God's grace and RIGHTEOUSNESS under the New Covenant, as per Isaiah 1:18 "Come now and let us reason together, saith the LORD; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as WHITE as snow......," through faith in Jesus Christ. I don't know, but it would seem that way to me.
As I said earlier, the Israelites, even if they did start out white, soon became a MIXED BROOD, even to the point of marrying the forbidden peoples:
Deuteronomy 7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them bfore thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy they; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them; 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou thake unto thy son. 4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. 5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. 6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath Chosen thee to be a special people onto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. 7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people; 8 But because the LORD loved you, *** and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt......
Judges 3:1 Now these are the nations which the LORD left, to prove Israel by them, even as many of Israel as had not known all the wars of Canaan: 2 Only that the generations of the children of Israel might know, to teach them war, at the least such as before knew nothing thereof. 3 Namely, five lords of the Philistines, all all the Canaanites, and the Sidonians, and the Hivites that swelt in Mount Lebanon, from mount Baal-Hermon unto the entering in of Hamath. 4 And they were to prove Israel by them, to know whether they would hearken unto the commandments of the LORD, which he commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses. 5 And the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, Hittites, and Amorites, and Perizzites, and Hivites, and Jebusites: 6 And they took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons, and served their gods. 7 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and forgat the LORD their God, and served Baalim and the groves......
In Ezekiel 8, the Bible speaks of the abominations of the House of Israel and the House of Judah in Jerusalem. Continuing in Ezekiel 16:3 God says "....Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and the mother an Hittite." Therefore, it seems unreasonable to presume the Lost Tribes are chosen for their genetic "exclusiveness", because they are NOT exlusive, but contain the genes of most, if not all of the other nations! Remember there were only 8 people on the ark. We're probably all related somewhere down the line.
The Israelites weren't chosen for their genes, or their so-called "righteousness" [they often weren't righteous, either, which is why God cast them off], but they were CHOSEN because they were the seed of the FAITHFUL Abraham, and CHOSEN TO BE GOD'S SERVANTS, to bring His Word to the heathen. When they failed, God said He would always reserve a Holy remnant, those who "had not bowed the knee to Baal", and gather others to him [Isaiah 49:6], to become the New Israel, the New priesthood. Jesus was the final fulfillment of the PHYSICAL seed of Abraham [Galatians 3:16, Luke 3:21-38 (Mary's Genealogy)], and the "chosen"/priesthood status is now open to ALL who have FAITH IN JESUS [Gal. 3:29, Isaiah 49:6].
I appreciate your references to Isaiah because that Book's legitimacy can not be denied as it is the one Book of Scripture that has been found in its entirety at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls). My research has included some of Willie Martin's thoughts and commentary, as well as Gene Scott's, Sheldon Emery's, Comparet's, Pastor Barker, Pete Peters, George Gordon, and many, many others.
None of my conclusions are based upon Scriptures attributed to Paul unless they are in obvious agreement with Christ's own words expressed elsewhere by his "actual" disciples. And I ignore any preacher, pastor or priest that accepts the Ashkenazi Jews as the chosen.
You may have misunderstood what "I" said regarding the Lost Tribes, the Promises made by Abraham and their relevance to the present day situation. I said it is more important to recognize "who isn't" entitled to those promises than who is.

I'm told that Isaiah is set up like a mini-New Testament. Isaiah is one of my favorite prophets. The Jews hated him I guess, because they "sawed him asunder with a wooden saw" according to Justin Martyr. I am also told that they do not read Isaiah 53 in their Synagogues, yet they consider themselves to be the SUFFERING SERVANT spoken of therein [See WHO IS THE SON OF GOD at http://www.noahide.com ].
I don't know enough about it, but I harbor the suspicion that the "Dead Sea Scrolls" may be another hoax contrived to destroy the truth. I'm sticking with the Bible for now.
I've seen a little of Gene Scott on TV, and reserve comment. I have read some of Pastor Sheldon Emry, and I agree with him that THE OLD JERUSALEM IS NOT THE NEW JERUSALEM. His BILLIONS FOR THE BANKERS, DEBTS FOR THE PEOPLE is another good one. However, I disagree with him ALSO that Israel is the "white, Anglo- Saxon, etc. etc."
I also do not accept the Ashkenazi Jews as the "chosen", not because of their genes, but because of their lack of faith in Jesus Christ. Look at Michael Hoffman. He is an Askenazi Jew, but you probably will not find a more erudite, vocal, and eloquent spokesman against the errors of the Jews and for the truth of Jesus Christ. Take me, FAR from his equal, descended from the "white, Anglo- Saxon, Celtic, etc. etc." according to one family name, but ALSO from the Ashkenazi Jews according to THE SAME NAME. I am also related to the top Illuminati, but I am so far removed from them spiritually it isn't funny. According to your doctrine, I should just hang it up and accept eternal damnation because I had the misfortune to have the "wrong genes". What a defeating doctrine that is. If it were true, God would have to be a sadist, and the "unchosen" would follow Satan because he would promise them the world if they would just follow him. Hmmm....sounds like a satanic plot to me.
Furthermore, if you read into The Thirteenth Tribe [the Khazars/Ashkenazis], you will find that many of the tribe were WHITE, had blond or red hair and BLUE EYES. They sound a lot like the "white, Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, etc. etc." They claimed to be THREE OF THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL. God said he had cast off three shepherds in one month because His soul abhorred them and vice versa. I would not be surprised if this was where the Ashkenazis originated, and I would not be surprised if one of the three tribes was the tribe of Dan, because the Khazars exhibited many traits of this tribe. Might they not also be part of the PHYSICAL Lost Sheep? Might it be His plan to bring them here [Micah 4:11- 13] for us to SET STRAIGHT? I don't know; but do wonder.

Think on this in the mean time: Jesus is quoted by Matthew as saying:
Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
The above statement by the Messiah, coupled with his statements about having other folds
I still maintain that "they are not all Israel that are of Israel....those of the promise are counted for the seed.." [Again, see Galatians 3:16-29, and Isaiah 49:6: It is a light thing that thou should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved (REMNANT!) of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth." Revelation 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; for thou was slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.] Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I AM the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall addunto him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part of of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.....

Did you read the link that Red Jones posted?

[ #67 http://www http://.sweet liberty.org/issues/hoax/unionjack_epilogue.htm
about 2/3's down they have the cornwallis quote. - Red Jones]

I had read it a couple of times before, but in light of this thread, I saw it with a whole new set of eyes.
Yesterday, I ran across a couple of other things that tie in with all of this:
".....The insidious legalism and Kabbalism of the Chabad Lubavitch movement [note: synonymous with the NOAHIDE LAW] has also entered the Church disguised as the Hebraic Roots Movement. Although Christians are to obey the secular authorities when it does not require them to disobey God, they are not called to establish the Old Testament or any other form of moral law to govern mankind. Nor is the Church of Jesus Christ itself under the Old Testament Law, but under Grace. (Romans 6:14) The Church Age -- the Age of Grace -- will come to a close [have to qualify the following, because I am a partial preterist, so I do not believe in the "Rapture", another NWO hoax:] with the Rapture of the Church, and the 70th week Daniel will commence God's dealings with the nation of Israel under the Mosaic Law. (Dan. 9:27)....." [Furthermore, I believe Dan. 9:27 was fulfilled with Jesus confirming the New Covenant, and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.]
UNDER THE [NOAHIDE] LAW
http://watch.pair.com/law.html
Then see the HEBRAIC ROOTS MOVEMENT ~ Judaizing the Christian Church [link at the bottome of the above page].
You had asked me earlier about Esau's hope. We tend to forget that God blessed Esau with much prosperity, and forgiveness in his heart for His brother Jacob. Story at Genesis 33.
Justin Martyr explained in his Dialagogue With Trypho a Jew [ccel.org], that God has broken down the veil of separation and has called all men to be brothers in Christ. You might want to read Ezekiel 34, and then read about the "old man" that educated Justin, and who I believe came away with a "gifted" understanding of the Scripture. Then you might ponder again "lost sheep", "other folds", and "knock and the door shall be opened". Justin had tried all the other doors to wisdom and they led nowhere. My personal opinion is that the "old man" ["Do you know me". "I have come to look for some of my HOUSEhold who have gone away from me"] was Jesus. That is one of the reasons I have difficulty understanding where all this animosity toward Paul stems from. To me, he is the perfect witness: a former Pharisee and mad persecutor of Christians, who became the most prominent disciple and proceeded to die a martyr's death, FOR WHAT PURPOSE? if he was not a true believer in the Christ who CHOSE him? Methinks some folks would like to kill the message he delivers in Galatians 3 and 4, for example.
I started this yesterday morning. After being sidetracked by another thread, crashing several times, and spending hours tracking "lost kids", I am just now getting back to this, and I STILL have not read all the comments.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-10 13:51:46 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#104. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#103)
I still maintain that "they are not all Israel that are of Israel....those of the promise are counted for the seed.." [Again, see Galatians 3:16-29, and Isaiah 49:6: It is a light thing that thou should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved (REMNANT!) of Israel:

Like I said before, I haven't determined fully that what Paul says is of any value to "me". Modern Christianity places more impetus on Paul than the rest of the Scripture, I don't. Many would simply call me a heretic ... and that's ok.
The Scriptures quoted by you above are at variance. However, Paul refers to the Book of Hosea at:
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee (Book of Hosea), I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. This refers to the overall theme of the Book of Hosea where God tells the prophet to name the kids he has by the whore God told him to marry (representing the 10 Northern Tribes that have worshipped strange gods,) "Not my people", "forgotten" and "scattered". He then relents and says a time will come when they will be My people, and beloved or remembered, and no longer scattered.
In that scripture you're quoting above, the Book of Galations, Paul calls them "gentiles", but the Gauls were of the ten northern tribes !
It was never my intention to itemize the exact lineage of every Tribe of Israel over the course of 3500 years. As a matter of fact I believe it may be beyond the realm of human possibility without a more perfect understanding of DNA, and an honest application of said knowledge should it become available.
Firstly, I think it's more important to make modern Christianity understand that it's wrong for them to call for and finance the slaughter of Arabs in support of those so-called (Ashkenazi / Israeli) Jews claiming descendancy from Abraham that are liars, and are in truth another grouping of gentiles descended from Japeth according to scripture and historical information that "IS" readily available.
[It would be quite an undertaking to analyze the true heritage of everyone of the tribes. Illegitimate children are not always determined, surely there were adoptions and other hindrances to ever knowing the exact lineage of these lost generations. I also think we've been misled to think that the peoples of the Middle-East today are the same as those that occupied the area 3500 years ago. The Egyptians were ruled by the Hyksos Kings for a very long time. Hyksos Kings means sheperd kings]. Egypt was also divided into two parts, upper and lower, having separate kings at times. Joseph, who ruled as "Prime Minister" of Egypt was the favored son of Jacob (Israel), set his dad and brothers up with estates in Goshen, which was prime real estate, and also had two boys by his Egyptian wife, their names were Ephraim and Manasseh, who were later adopted by Jacob/Israel. She may or may not have been white, we don't know.
The study is interesting and sometimes when I find conflicting issues I wonder if it's just not me that doesn't fully understand ... and many times I discover that to be the case ... a little later after more study.
I don't think there's enough time in one life to figure it all out.
Here's an interesting speculation not commonly known. After the Christ's death, Joseph of Arimthea (Jesus Uncle), Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of Jesus and Lazarus (Mary Magdalene's brother) went to first to France and some went on the Brit ain. Lazarus was the first Bishop of Marseilles, France. Some believe that Joseph of Arimthea was familiar with these lands because he was a wealthy tin merchant and the tin mines were in Britain.
See [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Lazarus ]

noone222 posted on 2006-07-10 16:39:32 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#106. To: noone222, Red Jones (#104)
Firstly, I think it's more important to make modern Christianity understand that it's wrong for them to call for and finance the slaughter of Arabs in support of those so-called (Ashkenazi / Israeli) Jews claiming descendancy from Abraham that are liars, and are in truth another grouping of gentiles descended from Japeth according to scripture and historical information that "IS" readily available.

I agree the most important thing is to destroy the myth that the people calling themselves Jews are the "chosen people", since that is the root of most of the murder and thievery going on in the world today. Although it is not my intent to render them any quarter by their race, whatever it is, do you not suppose that some of Jacob's wives may have been of the tribe of Japeth?
I don't think there's enough time in one life to figure it all out.
Agreed, and perhaps to spend too much time to do so results in "endless genealogies that cause strife". I want to spend enough time on it to destroy the myth.
Here's an interesting speculation not commonly known. After the Christ's death, Joseph of Arimthea (Jesus Uncle), Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of Jesus and Lazarus (Mary Magdalene's brother) went to first to France and some went on the Brit ain. Lazarus was the first Bishop of Marseilles, France. Some believe that Joseph of Arimthea was familiar with these lands because he was a wealthy tin merchant and the tin mines were in Britain.
I started a post on this last night, got tired, decided to unplug the internet, go to bed, and finish this morning, and my computer froze. So here I am again.
noone, I think the above is more of the British-Israel, the "British Monarchy is the throne of David, etc." myth that the NWO plans to rule the world with. They claim that the British Monarchy is the throne God chose to "get his message out".
"...The four main topics of this page are God's plan of Trusteeship, Joseph's Company of disciples coming to Britain, the outflow of Missionaries from Glastonbury, and why England was chosen for the sanctuary of Christanity.....

WHY ENGLAND?
There are some very good superficial reasons why all this took place in England. Because of Joseph's merchant business it was a known location, where Royal friends could help, and far from persecution. The deeper levels of meaning require broader levels of perspective. Without going into detail again, I'll mention that the Lost Tribes were headquartered in Britain. Ephraim and Judah, were already running the country. These folks, and their cousins that would come in later, are the very ones who God drafted to take His message to the world....."
Joseph of A.
http://asis.com/~stag/josephar.html
Church of Glastonbury [pagan] http://www.asis.com/~stag/glaston b.html
Here are some passages that would tend to disprove that God had anything but contempt for Ephraim's message:

Isa 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty [is] a fading flower, which [are] on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!

Isa 28:3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:

Jer 4:15 For a voice declareth from Dan, and publisheth affliction from mount Ephraim. [please note that Ephraim and Dan are the only two tribes that are not listed by name as being sealed by God in Rev. 7]

Jer 7:15 And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, [even] the whole seed of Ephraim.

Hsa 4:17 Ephraim [is] joined to idols: let him alone.

Hsa 5:3 I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hid from me: for now, O Ephraim, thou committest whoredom, [and] Israel is defiled.

Hsa 5:5 And the pride of Israel doth testify to his face: therefore shall Israel and Ephraim fall in their iniquity; Judah also shall fall with them.
The British Monarchy CLAIMS that they are of the tribes of Ephraim and Judah. Small wonder they would try to claim that, because ORIGINALLY, Judah received the sceptre, and Ephraim received the birthright from Joseph.

1Ch 5:2 — For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him [came] the chief ruler; but the birthright [was] Joseph's:)
http://www.blueletterbi ble.org/tsk_b/1Ch/5/2.html

Gen 48:8 And Israel beheld Joseph's sons, and said, Who [are] these?
[Now I don't put much credence in the Talmud, except that I believe the Jews have messed with the Bible, and sometimes, it is possible that the Talmud reveals some things they would really rather we didn't know. I once read that the "sages" said that when Jacob said "Who are these?", he wasn't just seeing Ephraim and Manasseh, but a whole multitude. I find that interesting. Is it possible Jacob DID see Ephraim's "children"? the multitudes, tribes, and tongues of the whole earth who would become the NEW Israel, the church? Ephraim was the leader of the ten tribes, and Ephraim is synonymous with "Israel"

Gen 48:9 And Joseph said unto his father, They [are] my sons, whom God hath given me in this [place]. And he said, Bring them, I pray thee, unto me, and I will bless them.

Gen 48:10 Now the eyes of Israel were dim for age, [so that] he could not see. And he brought them near unto him; and he kissed them, and embraced them.

Gen 48:11 And Israel said unto Joseph, I had not thought to see thy face: and, lo, God hath shewed me also thy seed.

Gen 48:12 And Joseph brought them out from between his knees, and he bowed himself with his face to the earth.

Gen 48:13 And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel's right hand, and brought [them] near unto him.

Gen 48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid [it] upon Ephraim's head, who [was] the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh [was] the firstborn.

Gen 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,

Gen 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name ["Israel"] be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Gen 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

Gen 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this [is] the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know [it], my son, I know [it]: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Gen 48:20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

Gen 48:21 And Israel said unto Joseph, Behold, I die: but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.

Gen 48:22 Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow.
http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen048.html#20
Note that here God calls EPHRAIM HIS FIRSTBORN:

Jer 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim [is] my firstborn.
However, God also says that JESUS is HIS FIRSTBORN, and the following is a very good page for you to look at:
http://www.pre teristarchive.com/Jesus_is_Israel/index.html

I had started to get a handle on all this British-Israel last night, but I really can't get into it today. You are more into than I am, so please have at it, if you will, and when you figure it all out, I would sure like to know. As I see it, there is some kind of conspiracy surrounding the NWO's take on Joseph of A. Did you know that the gargoyle-covered National Cathedral [Episcopal or Catholic-lite] has some sort of "crypt" for Joseph of A? The British-Israel myth seems to be perpetrated there as well.
If you want, look at some of these pages starting here:
http://asis.com/~stag/royalty.html

".....TROJANS/MILESIANS/CELTS/SCYTHIANS

I can recall one place in Spain that is named after a Biblical family; however not one of the tribes. This is Zaragosa, which comes from Zarah, Judah's first-born.
It was Zarah's family that ruled for over a 100 years in Egypt after Joseph's death, and before the Egyptians revolted against the (Hyksos) foreign rulers. At that time the nobility, the Zarahites, fled across the Mediterranean sea to already established cities. Cities that had been founded by their own family: Troy, Athens, Miletus, and more. Diodorus talks of two exoduses out of Egypt, one by sea, one under Moses. These Zarahites then migrated west, the Milesian/Zarahites arriving in Spain and Ireland near 600-700 BC.
One famous Trojan/Zarahite named Brutus landed in Britain 1103 BC and founded New Troy; later to be renamed London.
It's this Zarah stream of the Judah line that makes sense out of Ezekiel's prophecy of 17:22-24 and 21:25-27. The high tree is the Pharez line, the low tree is the Zarah line. Him that is high is Pharez, him that is low is Zarah. It was the Pharez line that came out of Egypt as the rulers of the Judah line (Jacob gave Judah the sceptre and lawmaking). With the Zarahites gone to the northern Mediterranean, the Pharezites took their rightful place as rulers.
The exalting of the Zarah line was when Jeremiah married off one of King Zedekiah's daughters to the High Zarahite King of Ireland about 583 BC. Thereby bringing the two lines together and establishing the Zarah line again as pre- eminent. All the kings and queens of the British Isles and northwest Europe come out of that union.
And why not? Didn't God say that David would "never want for a man on the throne?" These kings and queens out of the line of Judah were and have been ruling over the Lost Tribes these many centuries: 25-plus.
I haven't time to properly research the subject, but it has come to my attention that George Washington and other American Fathers had ties back to English nobility. And John F. Kennedy's heritage included kings of Ireland. Methinks Judah is ruling the United States as well. Here's some more information on American Presidents' ties with the line of David/European royalty ...."
Zarah you remember was the twin brother of Pharez, of their father, Judah, and their mother Tamar [THIS is the one I would like to know the geanealogy of. There is some super secret society named after Tamar.]. Zarah put his hand out first, and the midwife put a red ribbon on his wrist. Pharez came fully out first, and so he was named Pharez, which means Breach.

Gen 38:27 And it came to pass in the time of her travail, that, behold, twins [were] in her womb.

Gen 38:28 And it came to pass, when she travailed, that [the one] put out [his] hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first.

Gen 38:29 And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? [this] breach [be] upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez.

Gen 38:30 And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.
http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen038.html#27
NOTE that THE BIBLE says that PHAREZ [from whom Jesus was descended] is the firstborn. Note that THE BRITISH-ISRAEL DOCTRINE says that ZARAH is the firstborn! IS THIS THE "BREACH THAT THE REPAIRER OF THE BREACH WILL HEAL"? I don't know!
Now the Kabbalah has a red ribbon on the wrist as part of their mystical religion. Is it possible there is a connection? [See Madonna and her red- ribbon religion: http://freedom4um.com/cgi- bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=30038 ]. I don't know, and I am too tired and depressed to try to figure it out today.
All I know is, the British Monarchy is a pack of Druids and pagans, uniter of false religions, and it is said, although I have no way of proving it, that they sacrifice children in Satanic rituals. I did watch all the pomp and ceremony it took to put on just one of the Queen's dinners, and it took six months to prepare, and they even measured the distance between each plate, etc. and the distance of each chair from the table. It was all totally ridiculous. It was maddening as well, because the US IS STILL A BRITISH COLONY EXTORTING TAXES FOR THE CROWN [search http://apfn.org], and we help paid for it.
See Israel's symbols. Note Dan [His MAIN symbol is the EAGLE. see THE LOST TRIBE OF DAN at http://watch.pair.com]. Note Ephraim. Their symbols are the OX, or BULL, and the unicorn. The Brits should have read Justin Martyr. Where Jesus says in Psalm 22, the Bulls of Bashan surround me, Justin says the BULLS were THE PHARISEES.
http://asis.com/~stag/symbols.html
After you've duly noted the symbols the Brits so proudly hail, have a look at the picture here:

ANTICHRIST AND A CUP OF TEA
http://www.cuttingedge.org/d etail.cfm?ID=178
Okay, that's about all I can stand to delve into this today. It makes me irritable. noone, I know you and I are on the same side. I hope we will both be on the side of the sheep when Jesus comes to judge between the sheep and the goats.
Peace.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-12 9:33:45 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
Replies to Comment # 106.
#107. To: All (#106)
and we help paid for it.

we helped pay for it. [groan]

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-12 09:40:45 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#108. To: noone222 (#106)
Didn't God say that David would "never want for a man on the throne?" These kings and queens out of the line of Judah were and have been ruling over the Lost Tribes these many centuries: 25-plus.
I haven't time to properly research the subject, but it has come to my attention that George Washington and other American Fathers had ties back to English nobility. And John F. Kennedy's heritage included kings of Ireland. Methinks Judah is ruling the United States as well. Here's some more information on American Presidents' ties with the line of David/European royalty ...."

right. Forgot to mention:
Psalms - Chapter 2
Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying],

Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
[Ezekiel 34:11-13/John 10, Michah 4. search FIRST CHARTER OF VIRGINIA 1606, CROSS PLANTED AT CAPE HENRY VIRGINIA 1607, NATION DEDICATED TO JESUS CHRIST AND THE SPREADING OF THE GOSPEL.]

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession.

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-12 09:50:27 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
End Trace Mode for Comment # 106.
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