4um: Should Christians Be Subservient To This Government?

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Title: Should Christians Be Subservient To This Government?
Source: Romans 13
URL Source: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom013.html#1
Published: Jul 2, 2006
Author: christian bible
Post Date: 2006-07-02 20:11:00 by Red Jones
Keywords: None
Views: 6874
Comments: 117

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Romans 13:5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Romans 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Romans 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Romans 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].
a very provocative question in the title. I hope people will not be offended by it.
I have read some people's views here who criticize christians and say that the christians are overly-submissive to government's fascism.
I think there is a fine line, but a very important distinction still, between submitting to government's legitimate authority and supporting them in their evil. I try to do the former, but not the later.
I think we should be aware of the evil, but not supportive of it. Nevertheless, I personally feel we should take Romans 13 and similar verses seriously and submit to the authority that is put over us. I remember the story in the early chapters of Daniel when the Babylonians took over Jerusalem. Daniel submitted to their authority. but he told his friends that they would secretly keep the old rituals up even though the new king told them not to do this. He did not outwardly rebel, he did not raise up rebels. He only secretly obtained the things he needed and carried out the old rituals behind-closed-doors. And when the king came and told him to openly worship the new god he simply told the king that he would not do this. When the king told him he'd have him thrown in a furnace for defiance, then Daniel told the king that he would submit to this and that if this happened then his god was powerful enough to protect him from the furnace if he so chose to do so. Then the king threw him and his friends in the furnace. Then Daniel and his friends did not burn. Then the king ordered the court's accusers of Daniel to be thrown in the furnace instead. And he appointed Daniel to a high position knowing full well that he refused to worship the new god. And the king even paid respect to Daniel's god. To me Daniel was the model we should follow. He submitted to the legitimate authority of those over him here on earth. But he always worshiped god and not the king's false god. He was respectful of the authorities and did nothing to cause a rebellion. but he prevailed anyway with the help of god. To me Daniel is our model for today.
What say ye?
I think that the 'fallen-away' phenomenon is very real - that a large portion of the organized church has a faith that is against god, and yet they masquerade. And I think the 'deceived' factor is very strong. In these end-times many have beendeceived by the enemy. It is good not to be fallen-away. and it is good not to be deceived. but we still must at least submit to the authorities over us.
I keep telling people we are not going to defeat them. Until jesus returns. we should remember that the meek shall inherit the earth. The kingdom of heaven will come. The evil ones will be punished. Revenge is not ours', it is his. the sheep will be separated from the goats.
we must build our faith and do good works, look what it says in verse 3, the evil rulers cannot stop you when you do these good works. The things of man are being discredited in a powerful way. We cannot stop these events. we should be humble over them instead.
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#32. To: Red Jones (#0)
Nevertheless, I personally feel we should take Romans 13 and similar verses seriously and submit to the authority that is put over us.

Red, I commend to you this book:
The Mystery of Romans: The Jewish Context of Paul's Letter
The "powers that be ordained by God" referenced were not the pagan Roman Imperium, Caesar, or any of our present day would-be successors to Caesar. This is an horrific mistranslation/misapplication. In the context of the Letter to the Romans, a letter addressed to new Gentile Christians still possessed of all manner of pagan baggage and much in need of instruction in the oracles of God, instruction that could be had in only one place in the world of that time, namely the Jewish synagogues of the diasporah, the "powers that are ordained by God" are the leadership of the Jewish synagogues.
Remember, this letter was written before the schism between Church and Synagogue. Christianity at that time was still a sect within Judaism. Its leadership was entirely Jewish. And Gentile believers looked to Jews for instruction in the finer points of their faith. The centers for such instruction (the only place in a pagan world where the scriptures could be heard read and studied) were the local synagogues.
Had Gentile believers followed Paul's advice, the hard schism that later developed between Church and Synagogue with all of its tragic consequences for both Gentile and Jew might have been averted. Instead, this passage became twisted by a Paganized Church into a call for submission to Caesarism. This was nothing less than theological catastrophe.

Arator posted on 2006-07-03 0:45:21 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#34. To: Arator (#32)
so you're saying the authority mentioned in Romans 13 was the synagogue specifically, and had nothing to do with government?
but then there's the gospel verses where jesus said to render unto caesar what is caesar's and unto god what is god's.
but the type of authority you feel was meant in Romans 13 was not government regardless of those caesar verses from jesus? government is a different type of authority, a lesser authority; and you feel the original meaning did not mean government at all?
that is an interpretation that is not shared by most. but that doesn't mean it's a false interpretation.
I interpreted it to mean many types of authorities including government. but all authorities have their place and you don't have to respect them when they over-step their authority.
gotto admit - christians are like sheep, for better or worse. and this tyrant that rules over us has exploited that fact. but non-christians are like sheep too it has been proven in our country.

Red Jones posted on 2006-07-03 1:07:24 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#35. To: Red Jones (#34)
so you're saying the authority mentioned in Romans 13 was the synagogue specifically, and had nothing to do with government?

Exactly.
The thrust of Romans was all about averting a schism between Gentile believers and Jews.
The hope of Paul was that:
a) Gentile believers would submit to Jewish authority and learn the scriptures
b) Jews in the synagogues who did not yet believe would see the outworking of God in these new Gentile believers and come to faith in Yeshua themselves as a result.
But, even then, there was emerging among Gentile believers the notion that God had shifted his favor from Jews to Gentiles, that faith was a zero sum game, and that Gentile gain could only come at Jewish expense. Paul was teaching the opposite in Romans - that the divine plan was not to favor either Jew OR Gentile, but both Jew AND Gentile, united in one community of faith, and that it was imperative that new Gentile believers not act in ways that would impede their Jewish brethren from likewise coming to faith in their Messiah, Yeshua.
These are poor summaries of what is a deep and profound scholarly exegesis of Romans done by Nanos. I encourage you to read his book and come to your own conclusions.

Arator posted on 2006-07-03 1:30:25 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#37. To: Arator, All (#35)
Paul was teaching the opposite in Romans - that the divine plan was not to favor either Jew OR Gentile, but both Jew AND Gentile, united in one community of faith

A dandy reason to be VERY careful when reading Paul's writings.... The Jews keep their own traditions that are not the same as the Mosaic Law of the Bible. Their traditions are known as the Babylonian Talmud because that is where the rabbinical teachings originated. Yahshua the Christ condemned the Scribes and Pharisees for keeping their own, anti-Mosaic traditions, the "traditions of the elders." (Matt. Chap. 15.) It is those traditions, which were most vehemently condemned by Yahshua (Matt., Chaps. 15-28; 16:6) and which are today known as Judaism. James addresses his message to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. (James 1:1). By the time of Christ, the Twelve Tribes had already been established in the Caucasus, Europe and Asia Minor. The Jews of Judea were not expelled from Judea until around 70 A.D., well after these verses were composed. This is proof that James was not addressing Jews but rather Israelites. Yahshua said: "I come not but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." - Matt. 15:24; and "Go only to the house of Israel." - Matt. 10:6.

The chosen people (descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) were also to "separate themselves unto the Lord." -- Lev. 6:22 ."Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord." -- 2 Chron. 6:17. "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." -- Deu. 7:6. "For thou art an holy people unto Yahweh thy God; Yahweh, the LORD thy God, hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are on the face of the earth." -- Deu. 14:2. "And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken."-Deu. 26:19. "The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways." -- Deu. 28:9. "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people," -- 1 Peter 2:9.

The Anglo-Saxons are the direct, genetic descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel. The Assyrians had deported Beth-Omri (the House of King Omri, king of the 10 northern tribes) to the plains of Media, just south of the Caucasus Mountains. These deportations occurred between 745-715 B.C. These people became known as Scythians and Saccae before and during their migrations north through the Caucasus. Hence: Beth-Omri = Beth-Sak (House of Isaac) = the Caucasians = the Anglo-Saxons. "In Isaac shall thy seed be called." -- Gen. 21:12. Note that the Jews are not now, nor were they ever, known by the name of Isaac. Before these deportations, around 1500 B.C., large contingents of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin had already migrated from Egypt to Britain and Ireland before the Exodus. These two tribes of the House of Judah were merged back into the House of Isaac by the Saxon King, William the Conqueror. Completely separate and distinct are the Jews, who are composed of two distinct groups: the Ashkenazim and the Sephardim. The Sephardim are the older branch who are descended from the mixed marriages of Judahites and Edomites from about 150 B.C to 70 A.D. These people were not dispersed until Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman army under General Titus. It is to these people that Jesus said, "Ye are not of my sheep." -- John 10:26. The Sephardim are a mixed stock, including black African and many other racial admixtures, as the Jews themselves admit. As is evidenced in John 8:31-44, as well as in Matt. 23:35, where Yahshua accused them of the bloodshed of Abel: "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel." This can only mean that they are the descendants of Cain, who slew Abel. The Sephardim, therefore, have no claim to the Davidic inheritance because they are the children of the forbidden mixed marriages. They are not pure Israelites. We trace their origins back to Cain, whose father was the Serpent in the Garden. Their families and tribes, such as the Canaanites, Edomites, Hittites, and Amelekites, have historically been the enemies of true Israel, as they are today. The Khazar Jews (the Ashkenazim) are of primarily Turko/Mongolian descent. The Khazar tribes never claimed to be Shemites. Rather, they claimed descent from Japheth, Shem's brother. The twelve tribes were all Shemites because their father, Jacob/Israel was a Shemite. The Ashkenazi people, who comprise 90-95% of the Jewish people today, never were and are not now Shemites at all. They are Japhethites, Turks and Mongols. They converted to the religion of Judaism around 800 A.D. and did not have one drop of Shemitic blood in their veins! These facts make it very clear that the Modern Jew has absolutely no biblical claim to the land of Palestine. Both groups are impostors who wish to steal the inheritance of True Israel. "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the world be blessed." - Gen. 22:18. The Anglo-Saxons have given the world the Bible & Christianity, medicine, science & technology, high art, classical music, philosophy & metaphysics, the Magna Carta, and the Constitution of the United States, not to mention the feeding of the world through our agriculture. The Jews have given the world massive debt through usury, ethnic strife (especially with their false and violent claims on Palestine), special-interest politics (B'nai B'rith, the Anti-Defamation League, World Jewish Congress, the Jewish Defense League, Zionism, etc.), and decadence (pornography, organized crime, anti-Christian activism). In the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, the Jews were expelled from every nation in Europe because of their practice of usury and foreclosure and for practicing their sick and perverse Talmudic religion of deception. Name one country in the history of the world that has been blessed by the presence of the Jews!!! Even their own country seethes with constant turmoil. Its own economy cannot survive without continuous aid from the U.S. It would collapse from its own corruption. This, in spite of the fact that the world is filled with millionaire and billionaire Zionists. What is their money being used for? It is the Jews who PRETEND to be Israel so that they might reclaim the inheritance which their forefather, Esau, so foolishly sold to his brother, Jacob/Israel for a bowl of porridge. "Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance." - Matt. 21:38, Mark 12:7; Luke 20:14. Yahweh, through His prophet, Daniel, told us that in the Last Days, all things will be revealed. "Ye shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free."

The proof that the Jews are not of Judah is contained in the Book of Revelation:
"I know the blasphemy of them that which say they are Jews, and are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan." -- Rev. 2:9.
"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." -- Rev. 3:9. In Revelation 3:9, Jesus Christ is addressing His faithful followers. These followers cannot possibly be Jews, because the Jews have always denied Him. Jesus is saying that He will eventually make these liars come and worship at the feet of the Christians who are true to Him.
In both cases of this translation from the King James Version, the Greek word which is translated as 'Jews' is, in Strong's Concordance, the word (2453) Ioudaios, meaning "belonging to the tribe of Judah," and the word (2455) Ioudas, meaning the posterity of Judah. Interestingly, there is a related word, word number 2451, Ioudaikos, which is translated as "resembling a Judean, Jewish." To "resemble" someone is not the same as being someone. One who resembles can easily impersonate the real thing. Since we must always distinguish between the real thing and something which resembles the real thing, we must have different words for these objects. Unfortunately, the word ‘Jews’ has been used for both groups. So, the accurate translation of Rev. 2:9 is this: "I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Judahites, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." The Jews, who are in reality, Ioudaikos, not Ioudaios (impostors, not real), have been pretending to be Israelites since the Jewish Dispersion of 70 A.D. Here we see the beginning of the great deception that the religion of Judaism has performed for the last two thousand years of history. Judaism was not practiced by the Israelites. It was only practiced by the followers of the scribes and Pharisees. And the Pharisees were not ‘Ioudas’, Judah. They were, rather, ‘Ioudaikos’, only the resemblance of Judah. (John 8:44). In fact, the religion called Judaism has never been practiced by the House of Israel because the House of Israel was already scattered, from the Assyrian captivity starting in 745 B.C., into the "wilderness" of Europe and Asia Minor. The only exception to this rule has been when non-Jews convert to Judaism. Note well that the Jews declare descent through the mother. In contradistinction, the Old Testament and the New Testament declare descent only through the father. Read Matthew, Chapter 1 and Luke, Chapter 3 if you doubt this.

The Jews themselves confirm, indirectly, the fact that they are not the people of the blessing because they freely admit that "Everywhere we go, we are persecuted," "Everywhere we go, the specter of ‘anti-Semitism’ follows us." The question is: Does it follow them or do they bring it with them? It is a historical fact that in every nation that they have dwelt, they have always agitated for special privileges for themselves at the expense of the native population. Two modern examples of this fact, without the citizens being aware, are the building of holocaust museums at taxpayer expense and the passing of laws against "denying the holocaust." These are egregious examples of how the Jews manipulate the societies which have blessed them with a "welcome in." Contrary to what Genesis 12:3 states, the Jews have always returned the blessing with a curse by abusing the hospitality of the host nations. This is proof that the prophecy does not apply to them.

innieway posted on 2006-07-03 5:10:31 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#41. To: innieway (#37)
you make a lot of great arguments and have a lot of good scripture to back it up.
I agree with most of what you say, but the one thing I am skeptical on is the idea that Anglo-Saxons are direct genetic descendants of the 12 tribes. I thank you for sharing that because I know that some believe that and it is considered a taboo thing to think. I thought that the 'chosen people' who inherit these blessings of god were to be a people who believe, not a people who are genetic descendants of the early hebrews. So I am open to the idea that America is the new Jerusalem, but I would think this is done because of the faith that many Americans have or had in the past, not because of genetic descent from early Israel.
I agree completely though that Revelation 2:9 & Revelation 3:9 show that those who claim this blessing in modern-day Israel are frauds.
I thought there were verses somewhere in Old Testament that specifically say that those who inherit the blessings of old Israel are not genetic descendents, but spiritual descendants (those who believe) instead. I wish I knew where those verses are.

Red Jones posted on 2006-07-03 9:31:25 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#46. To: Red Jones (#41)
the one thing I am skeptical on is the idea that Anglo-Saxons are direct genetic descendants of the 12 tribes.

Isaac was living in Canaan, and this is where his sons Esau and Jacob were born. Esau was the first born, and was red (Genesis 25:25). Jacob was the younger of the twins. Jacob is the one that would later have his name changed by The Creator to Israel.
When the time came for Jacob to marry, his father Isaac forbade him to marry of the women in Canaan (Genesis 28:1). Jacob was instructed to go to their "homeland" and choose a wife from among the daughters of Laban, who was Jacob's uncle (Jacob's mother's brother - Genesis 28:2). If you look up Laban in Strong's Concordance, you will find that the name means "to be white"!!!
I used to think somewhat the same as you that the "chosen" were believers more than genetic. But I began to wonder why there was such a tedious accounting of lineages in the book of Genesis especially. So I began to look up each name in the Strong's Concordance, and started linking genealogies.... Believe me, it's all in there for a reason - to show the truth to us as to who we are, and put the puzzle pieces together. This whole "Jew" thing is a huge fraud - call it the world's greatest case of "Identity theft"!!
In the linking of genealogies, it is important to note that Ashkenaz (remember Ashkenazi jews) was a descendant of Japeth, NOT Shem... We get the word Semite from the name Shem. Interestingly, the name Japeth means (per Strong's Concordance) expansion.... And expand they have - now making up by far the largest percentage of modern "Jewry"!!! But they are NOT Semites, never were, never will be; and have never been favored by the Creator nor the ones His promises were made to.. Those would be the descendants of Shem (whose name means honor).
So yes, genealogy is VERY important, AND Anglo Saxons are direct descendants of Jacob - the 12 tribes of Israel... However, that doesn't mean that ONLY Anglo Saxons are the direct descendants. Jacob married 2 daughters of Laban - Leah and Rachel.. He had first fallen madly in love with Rachel (who apparently was quite the looker), and was basically TRICKED into marrying Leah. Anyhow, with Leah, Jacob fathered 4 children, but Rachel was barren. So Rachel instructed her handmaid to have children for her with Jacob! There were 2 children born of this "pairing". Later, Leah also instructed HER handmaid to bear children by Jacob - which resulted in 2 more children.. (We are now up to 8 kids) Then Leah bore 3 more. And finally, Rachel bore one (bringing the total to 12)- they named him Joseph.. (See Genesis chapters 29, 30). It was Joseph that was sold into slavery in Egypt, and Joseph that was so favored by the Creator that he eventually wound up holding the second highest position of authority in Egypt - second only to Pharoah; and his descendants during that 400 years of slavery turned into a HUGE number that were exiled from Egypt by Moses... Anyhow, back to the Anglo Saxon deal, there are 4 of the 12 tribes of Israel that were born to mothers that we basically have no genealogical background to - nor any clue as to their ethnicity, but there is little doubt that the other 8 (of the lineage of Laban) were white.

innieway posted on 2006-07-03 12:24:51 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#56. To: innieway (#46)
You have posted some incredibly interesting things, and I want to go back and read them more closely. However, I think what you are preaching here is racist and harmful to Christ's message. He came to draw ALL people to Himself. Contemplate John 3:16 for a minute. Also contemplate I Timothy 1:4 : "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do."
It's not about genes, but faith.
"In Isaac shall thy seed be called." -- Gen. 21:12.
Let's take the whole passage, and understand that the Bible says: Search the scripture, every word of prophecy will have its mate. The Bible is full of hidden pictures, that aren't always fully understood until it is time. [Speaking of the bondwoman Hagar, and her son Ishmael, whom Sarah wanted cast out]: Genesis 21:9 And Sarah saw the son Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. 11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. 12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in they sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for IN ISAAC SHALL THY SEED BE CALLED. 13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed. [Now here I want to mention that it was JESUS who appeared to Hagar in the desert to tell her to go back to her mistress, and that HE would increase Ishmael's seed. Even though Ishmael was not the seed or bloodline, which would produce Christ, God still cared.]
Read Galatians 3:16-29. Verse 16. Now to Abraham and his SEED were the pomises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy SEED, WHICH IS CHRIST. Verse 26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ." 27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28. For there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29. And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Now see the ALLEGORY in Galatians 4 about the "children of the flesh" versus the "children of the promise". The children of the flesh [the physical seed of Abraham, whoever they may be], have no standing under the NEW Covenant, unless they have accepted Christ. The "children of the promise" are all those [whatever race] who take hold of the New Covenant. The children of the flesh WHO HAVE NOT ACCEPTED CHRIST have become the children of the bondwoman [Cast out the children of the bondwoman for they shall not be heir with my son.], UNLESS they take hold of the New Covenant. It doesn't matter what race they are, if they have accepted Christ, they have become the children of the FREEWOMAN and of Abraham. People of ALL RACES are the New Israel.
Remember Jesus said, I have others that are not of this fold. Them too must I bring. See Isaiah 53:10. I think it is a much-neglected verse. Of course, the Jews, I understand, won't read Isaiah 53 in their Synagogues. Small wonder, for it speaks of Christ. Isaiah 53:10 : Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand."
This very clearly foretells who are the seed of Christ [those who accept HIM as the one-time sacrifice for sin]. Though He was CUT OFF [Isaiah 53:8; Daniel 9:26], those who believe in Him become His seed, and thus "declare His generation". THIS is the seed spoken of in Genesis 12:2-3. Genesis 12:2-3 refers to people of FAITH. Think about Rachel weeping for her lost children [Matthew 2:18]. Rachel's firstborn by the bondwoman Bilhah [Dan] was hers by ADOPTION, setting the precedent for her adoption of all the races through Christ, and Rachel will be comforted.
Read Acts 8:26-39. Recall the Ethiopians were black [Can an Ethiopian change his skin, or a leopard his spots?] Now notice that the Angel of the Lord [the Angel of the Lord is often JESUS] sends Philip to preach to the Ethiopian. The Ethiopian was well on his way to understanding what a lot of church-goers don't understand today. Note the Ethiopian is BAPTIZED IN CHRIST. [Galatians 3:27]. The black Ethiopian is just as much a part of Israel as anyone else, and as the scripture says, becomes "an heir according to the promise." [Galatians 3:29].
The same holds true for every other race, even Edom. God has a remnant of them as well:
Amos 9:11 In that day will I raise up the TABERNACLE of David that is fallen, , and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old. 12 That they may possess the REMNANT OF EDOM, AND OF THE HEATHEN, WHICH ARE CALLED BY MY NAME, saith the LORD that doeth this.
Likewise:
The Sephardim, therefore, have no claim to the Davidic inheritance because they are the children of the forbidden mixed marriages. They are not pure Israelites. We trace their origins back to Cain, whose father was the Serpent in the Garden. Their families and tribes, such as the Canaanites, Edomites, Hittites, and Amelekites, have historically been the enemies of true Israel, as they are today.
You named two of the forbidden tribes that THE ISRAELITES MARRIED INTO! Judges 3:5-6. The Israelites were not a pure race. God accepted strangers into his "household" if they took hold of his Old Covenant. It's not an issue under the New Covenant, because membership in the House of the LORD is BY FAITH.
Let's talk about Japheth. Genesis 9:27 God shall ENLARGE Japheth, and he SHALL DWELL IN THE TENTS OF SHEM..... Remember Jesus said that the first would be last, and the last would be first? Look at Genesis 10:1. The order of Noah's sons are SHEM, Ham, and JAPHETH [father of the Gentiles]. Then the order is reversed in the naming of the families, JAPHETH being the first one named in verse 2. See Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob,and to restore the PRESERVED of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
See Isaiah 66:19-21. God says He will make LEVITES [priests] of the GENTILES and ALL NATIONS. Rev. 5:9-10 says God has chosen people from EVERY RACE to be kings and priests on the earth. Therefore the Ashkenazis "oppose themselves", since the promises were made to them as well, if they accept Jesus as LORD!
Go back to the rift between the two houses, and see how the Israelites felt about playing second fiddle and slaves to their brethren in the Kingdom of Judah.
1Ki 12:16 — So when all Israel saw that the king hearkened not unto them, the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? neither [have we] inheritance in the son of Jesse: to your tents, O Israel: now see to thine own house, David. So Israel departed unto their tents.
http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/1Ki/1Ki012.html#16
Look at how the Jews claim to be the chosen ones on the basis of birth and genes [even though we know it is a fraud]. Think of the hard feelings it causes, not to mention the violence and thievery that is the result. Think of how someone sitting in a hut in Africa, or a Palestinian whose home has been bombed, and their family killed, thinks, we have no part in their God, so why should we care or listen? Where is their hope? Would Jesus want people left with no hope? Jesus came to repair the breach, to tie up old wounds, to bring salvation and eternal life to ALL who believe in Him. He sends us to preach the gospel of His kingdom, not to preach division. He sends us to bring hope of a better day, when the meek shall inherit the earth. Race has nothing to do with it. John 3:15 For God so loved THE WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOMSOEVER believed, would not perish, but have everlasting life.
I hope you don't take this as criticism. I have seen the view you gave on here before, by others. Today I just couldn't keep silent any longer. People are dying out there, and it is all so very unnecessary. The devil wants to separate us from each other and from God, because he knows his days are numbered, and he'd like to take as many of us with him as he can.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-03 19:56:53 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#58. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#56)
Would Jesus want people left with no hope? Jesus came to repair the breach, to tie up old wounds, to bring salvation and eternal life to ALL who believe in Him.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Most Christians would agree that Christ is God, that they are one. God said he hated Esau in his mothers womb, Jacob he loved neither child having done any wrong. Where was Esau's hope ?
Most Christians equate faith with "believing" ... satan believes ... will he receive salvation unto eternal life ?
I'm glad that you mentioned the often ignored scripture where Jesus states that he has many folds ... some may be muslims, some may be Krishnas ... I don't think it's for me to question since they're His folds to do with as he chooses.
Todays Christian community has all but forgotten the Old Testament. They have gone headlong for Paul's commentary on grace, and ignore the fact that Christ himself stated that he didn't come to change the law, but to fulfill or establish it. He even went so far as to say that not a jot or tittle of the law would pass before heaven and earth passed away.
[Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. ]
Too many of us have bought the bullshit spewed from the pulpits of pastoral prostitutes, that make salvation palatable for their own economic benefit. They promote inter-racial marriages which God forbid, they excuse homosexuality which God forbid, they have the kids dress up like ghouls on Halloween (Night of the dead) they have Easter Egg Hunts on Easter Sunday ... which is a pagan fertility ritual in remembrance of Ashtoreth, they promote Christmas which is another pagan day of worship for Semiramis, and they even put Christmas trees in their churches which are forbidden at Jeremiah 10 (The Book of Jeremiah).
Those that say God loves everybody are full of shit. It just ain't so.
The Scripture that made me really think about finding the truth was one where Christ says at the Judgment there will be "many" that will say "but lord we healed the sick and cast out demons in your name" ... to which he will reply "DEPART FROM ME FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU" ... explain that !
There is a grand delusion happening in these times. The preachers and priests of baal have filled the pulpits, like they have for 6000 years, they talk a lot of nonsense twisting scriptures by telling people ... Oh this was meant in a spiritual context, or ... this is an allegory.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

noone222 posted on 2006-07-03 21:01:38 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
#83. To: noone222 (#58)
They promote inter-racial marriages which God forbid

I don't think God ever forbade this. Moses himself had a wife of a different race.

Those that say God loves everybody are full of shit. It just ain't so.

God says he loves everybody.

The Scripture that made me really think about finding the truth was one where Christ says at the Judgment there will be "many" that will say "but lord we healed the sick and cast out demons in your name" ... to which he will reply "DEPART FROM ME FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU" ... explain that !

That's easy to explain, without love nothing you do means anything. If you don't truly love God, then it matters not what you do. God knows people's hearts, without love, true love of God, there is no salvation.

RickyJ posted on 2006-07-04 16:57:33 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
Replies to Comment # 83.
#84. To: RickyJ (#83)
They promote inter-racial marriages which God forbid
I don't think God ever forbade this. Moses himself had a wife of a different race.

I'm afraid he did!! Deuteronomy 7:1When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: 3Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
And:Ezra 10:10 And Ezra the priest stood up, and said unto them, Ye have transgressed, and have taken strange wives, to increase the trespass of Israel.
God says he loves everybody.
Agian, not true!! Malachi 1:1The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. 2I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 4Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.
That's easy to explain, without love nothing you do means anything.
So, since He said there would be MANY that He would tell to "Depart from me ye that work iniquity; for I never knew you" that means that there are many that are without love. I agree
I am not racist, purist, or any other thing which anyone may possibly construe out of my posts on this thread (which BTW has been an extremely good, thought provoking one!). BUT, the bottom line is (as pointed out by noone222) children of the Destroyer "The Wicked One" are walking among us!! And I personally think Bush - the whole line of them - and his cronies are among those children......

innieway posted on 2006-07-04 17:37:03 ET Reply Untrace Trace Private Reply
End Trace Mode for Comment # 83.
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