4um: Should Christians Be Subservient To This Government?

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Title: Should Christians Be Subservient To This Government?
Source: Romans 13
URL Source: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom013.html#1
Published: Jul 2, 2006
Author: christian bible
Post Date: 2006-07-02 20:11:00 by Red Jones
Keywords: None
Views: 6871
Comments: 117

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Romans 13:5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Romans 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Romans 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Romans 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].
a very provocative question in the title. I hope people will not be offended by it.
I have read some people's views here who criticize christians and say that the christians are overly-submissive to government's fascism.
I think there is a fine line, but a very important distinction still, between submitting to government's legitimate authority and supporting them in their evil. I try to do the former, but not the later.
I think we should be aware of the evil, but not supportive of it. Nevertheless, I personally feel we should take Romans 13 and similar verses seriously and submit to the authority that is put over us. I remember the story in the early chapters of Daniel when the Babylonians took over Jerusalem. Daniel submitted to their authority. but he told his friends that they would secretly keep the old rituals up even though the new king told them not to do this. He did not outwardly rebel, he did not raise up rebels. He only secretly obtained the things he needed and carried out the old rituals behind-closed-doors. And when the king came and told him to openly worship the new god he simply told the king that he would not do this. When the king told him he'd have him thrown in a furnace for defiance, then Daniel told the king that he would submit to this and that if this happened then his god was powerful enough to protect him from the furnace if he so chose to do so. Then the king threw him and his friends in the furnace. Then Daniel and his friends did not burn. Then the king ordered the court's accusers of Daniel to be thrown in the furnace instead. And he appointed Daniel to a high position knowing full well that he refused to worship the new god. And the king even paid respect to Daniel's god. To me Daniel was the model we should follow. He submitted to the legitimate authority of those over him here on earth. But he always worshiped god and not the king's false god. He was respectful of the authorities and did nothing to cause a rebellion. but he prevailed anyway with the help of god. To me Daniel is our model for today.
What say ye?
I think that the 'fallen-away' phenomenon is very real - that a large portion of the organized church has a faith that is against god, and yet they masquerade. And I think the 'deceived' factor is very strong. In these end-times many have beendeceived by the enemy. It is good not to be fallen-away. and it is good not to be deceived. but we still must at least submit to the authorities over us.
I keep telling people we are not going to defeat them. Until jesus returns. we should remember that the meek shall inherit the earth. The kingdom of heaven will come. The evil ones will be punished. Revenge is not ours', it is his. the sheep will be separated from the goats.
we must build our faith and do good works, look what it says in verse 3, the evil rulers cannot stop you when you do these good works. The things of man are being discredited in a powerful way. We cannot stop these events. we should be humble over them instead.
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#68. To: noone222 (#66)
I am getting a lot of it, that's for sure.
I agree with you that so many of the pastors/ministers in the churches are just finding a pleasing message so that they can make money. they are careerists looking for a good paycheck. and I remember reading in revelation a verse that says they will be like this in the season of the end.
no one has all the answers, that's for sure.

Red Jones posted on 2006-07-03 23:18:18 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#69. To: Red Jones, noone222, Arator, innieway, AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt, RickyJ (#68)
While you guys are chewing the fat over Biblical mysteries, I've got one to pose: some people point to a couple of verses in the Bible as evidence for the pre-Tribulation Rapture. But I've always been sort of skeptical; I think of it like this: look at all the faithful that were killed back in Biblical times for not renouncing their faith -- God didn't save them, why would he save us? Surely we can't be more holy or worthy than those people.
And some argue, "well that's true -- but the Tribulation is the wrath of God being poured out on the Earth, and why would he pour his wrath out on his own faithful?" To that I answer that everything that I can see that's about to happen is entirely the work of man, the interplay between crafty geniuses, greedy fools and the entirely mislead. We've already seen what happens when these people get control of a population(Bolsheviks). Now multiply that by a hundred and sprinkle it over the whole world. Looking at things that way, where is the need for God's wrath to reduce our populations to cinders?
You always hear these preachers saying that "when the Rapture comes, there will be complete anarchy -- moving, driverless cars running off the roads, pilotless airliners falling from the sky", etc. They tell us it will be an event all the Earth will know about, impossible to ignore, and that the talking heads will go on TV to lamely explain everything away. But I'm not so sure it would be like that at all. It occurs to me that with the current state of the Church, Wal-Mart Christians composed of Soccer Moms and Nascar Dads(stereotyping for simplicity), people that truthfully have more in common with Satanism than Christianity, maybe the event would pass almost entirely unnoticed.
Don't you think it's a little convenient for a group of powerful Satan-worshipping elites to have a target population who not only do not resist, but do not even get upset about the encroaching tyranny and genocide because they believe they are all going to be taken away soon? I spoke to a lady not long ago on the matter of America'a impending ruin and she only said something to the effect of "well, we won't be here much longer anyway." Can tyrant wannabees ask for any better attitude from complacent and dossile citizens? And then this, from http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/post/link2.htm:
"Paul’s point to the believers at Thessalonica is that they need not worry about their dead loved ones. Jesus will resurrect them when he returns. He says that this will take place at "the coming of the Lord." There is no hint that this is any different than the coming which everyone was expecting–the one that Jesus told his apostles would take place "after the tribulation" (Matt. 24:29). We would also expect that the eschatology Jesus taught them would be the same as what Paul was teaching, unless we have reason to believe differently. It is primarily this lack of evidence for multiple comings that is the basis for post-tribulationism. When it is realized that there is only one coming, post- is the only position. All agree that Christ is coming after the Tribulation, so if there is only one coming (or one stage of his coming as some prefer to call it), then the rapture must occur after the Tribulation."
And then, this:
"[5] This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. [6] For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, [7] and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, [8] dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. [9] These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, [10] when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed -- for our testimony to you was believed. [2 Thess. 1:5-10]"
I think the irony about pre-Tribulationists is that they often support things such as the rebuilding of the Temple and being supportive of massive wars to hasten the Second Coming, an event universally identified with a time of pain and suffering, and then go on about how they(the pre-Tribs) will be "caught up" out of harm's way to watch the horror inherent in the same event they have supposedly helped "bring about".
On the other hand, I've read some pretty convincing arguments from the pre-Tribulationists also, but it just somehow doesn't seem like real Christians would get a "get out of jail free" card on this one.
Perhaps I'm entirely mistaken about these things, I don't claim to be an expert on Scripture. Just sharing a few of my thoughts on the matter.

"When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic"

Nintendo of the Gods posted on 2006-07-04 4:16:17 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#70. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#69)
I've got one to pose: some people point to a couple of verses in the Bible as evidence for the pre-Tribulation Rapture. But I've always been sort of skeptical; I think of it like this: look at all the faithful that were killed back in Biblical times for not renouncing their faith -- God didn't save them, why would he save us? Surely we can't be more holy or worthy than those people.

Your common sense matches the parable of the Wheat and Tares, which Christ likened to the last days. Pay particular attention to the explanation given to the disciples later, after the crowd had departed, starting at verse 36 ... Surely we can't be more holy or worthy than those people.
First Century followers of Christ were nearly completely wiped out by people like Paul, (Pharisees working behind the scenes as well with the Roman Government and replaced with Constantines Roman converts to a paganized imitation, actually Mithraism with a few name changes). Fed to lions, beaten to death by gladiators, put on the rack and hung on stakes ... Rome destroyed most of the original followers of truth, and they are going to do it again, right here in America. Rapture enthusiasts ignore the truth of the parable of the Wheat and Tares.
[1] The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
[2] And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
[3] And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
[4] And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
[5] Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
[6] And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
[7] And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
[8] But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
[9] Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
[10] And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
[11] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
[12] For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
[13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
[14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
[15] For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
[16] But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
[17] For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
[18] Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
[19] When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
[20] But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
[21] Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
[22] He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
[23] But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
[24] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
[25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
[26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
[27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
[28] He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
[29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
[31] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
[32] Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
[33] Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
[34] All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
[35] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
[36] Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
[37] He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
[38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
[39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
[41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[43] Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
[44] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
[45] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
[46] Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
[47] Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
[48] Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
[49] So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
[50] And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[51] Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
Read the above carefully, especially where it describes the Tares as being [of that wicked one]... modern theologians will tell you this is an allegory or has a spiritual meaning, when Christ was attempting to tell us that there are children of "that wicked one", Lucifer, walking amongst us.
And by the way, a tare is a weed that appears very similar to wheat until the time that the wheat gets a head of grain, harvest time.
I don't understand why we humans rebel against good advice. We treat our parents as if they have something against us when they try to keep us from harming ourselves, especially as teens. As adults we tend to rebel against the good advice of our heavenly Father ... and if we'd get smart and simply do those things as He has instructed and avoid those he warns against ... we wouldn't be susceptible to the wiles of the crime-ocracy. The thing I find exasperating is that everyone bitches about the hell we're suffering at the hands of the evil-archy, but continues to participate in all of their frauds, like Social Security, banking, credit, swearing oaths, wars etc.,
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds (smites) you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams ... and I concur !
noone222 posted on 2006-07-04 6:37:14 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#71. To: Nintendo of the Gods (#69)
I myself don't go along with these people who think that one day soon christians will just be raptured out and then afterwards things will get really bad on earth. I think it's wishful thinking.
they have verses to support their view, but these verses are not specific enough to confirm their interpretation. to me these verses only speak of a dramatic separation coming in the future.
I can't point to any individual verses, but my recollections of what I read in bible are that when these horrible events come involving great warfare between nations where things will break down to the point where large numbers will wonder if they can survive it says specifically that his people are still among the people. that's my recollection.
and I think it's real curious like you said that these people who believe the rapture theology also have no concern that our leaders are evil. they seem to like evil leaders. it's a bit odd.
pre-tribulation, post-tribulation - it is a well-developed ideology made by the people is what it is. we don't know the future exactly. other than what the verses specifically say we just do not know. and we always have a problem with interpretation in that many people will interpret falsely.

Red Jones posted on 2006-07-04 9:00:47 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#72. To: Arator (#60)
That's just it. They weren't. "that present day cult called Judaism" did not chrystalize until the rise of the Rabbis led by Rabbi Akiva who declared Bar Kochba to be Messiah in 132 AD, long after Paul wrote his letter to the Romans.

The scriptures says otherwise, and to me it is the final authority on this matter, and all matters for that matter. BTW, I wasn't talking about Juadism today, but at that time.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
RickyJ posted on 2006-07-04 9:21:05 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#73. To: RickyJ (#72)
The scriptures says otherwise, and to me it is the final authority on this matter, and all matters for that matter. BTW, I wasn't talking about Juadism today, but at that time.

I have some questions for you about what the scriptures say.
Throughout his preaching in the diaspora, whenever Paul went to a new city, where did he go first to preach the gospel?
That's right, the local synagogues. Why? Because that's where the non-pagans were. That was the meeting place for both Jews and Gentile God fearers. That was the one refuge in a pagan world where the word of God was studied and heard. Just as Jesus attended synagogue in his life, so too did his followers.
And, those 10,000 Jewish believers in Yeshua in Jerusalem, did they cease being Jewish? Did believing in Yeshua for them mean rejecting Judaism or becoming something other than what they were? On the contrary, Paul, the apostles and Jewish believers generally remained Jewish to the core. The scriptures report that they went to synagogues, kept Torah and even performed Temple rites (see Acts 21). They believed in Yeshua as Messiah exactly because they were faithful Jews, as their Messiah was.
Was there intra-Jewish strife? Absolutely. Paul himself was a Pharisee who persecuted Jewish followers of Yeshua. But, neither the Pharisaical faction nor any other faction was preiminant or in any position to assert that they were the only permissible Judaism. The rise of the Pharisees to unchallenged preiminence did not begin until after 70AD, when the destruction of the Temple eliminated one of the Pharisee's most powerful rival factions, the priestly Sadducees. That left only the followers of Yeshua to challenge them. Finally, in 132 AD, when the Rabbis declared rebel leader Bar Kochba to be Messiah, it became impossible for Jewish believers in Yeshua to continue to attend synagogue. Until that time, Jewish believers in Yeshua remained one of many possible and contending Judaisms and did not separate from their brethren. Rather, they struggled with them in the hopes that all Jews might come to believe in Yeshua.
It is a mistake to read into intra-Jewish strife in the first century the schism that would not occur until a century later during the Bar Kochba revolt in 132AD. As has been the case throughout Jewish history up to that time, what it meant to be a faithful Jew was in contention among Jews. No side of the argument ceased to be Jewish as a result of their disagreements. It was an intra-family squabble with the real possibility at the time of Paul's writings that the followers of Yeshua might become the preiminent faction in Judaism. Why else do you think the other factions engaged them so fiercely?
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Arator posted on 2006-07-04 10:17:58 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#74. To: Arator (#73)
Sorry, by and large those God fearing folks you describe were the ones that wanted Jesus killed. Jesus himself threw them out of the temple. The gospel was preached in the synagogues first primarily because it was a commandment from God that the gospel be preached first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. Secondarily because they were indeed generally the most lost people of that time and in the most urgent need of hearing the truth, yet you describe them as God-fearing non-pagans. They were the worst of the worst; they made Romans seem good by comparison. Paul loved them first because they were God’s creation made in the image of man, secondly because they were his fellow brethren and because they were totally lost beyond almost all hope and he knew it. He knew that his fellow brethren were not likely to see Heaven, and it grieved his heart. So of course he would want to preach to them first.

Romans 13 was written to the Christians of Rome. Their rulers were certainly not Synagogue rulers. One could say their rulers were the Roman government and they were in secular nature, but in the nature Paul was probably talking about it was the elders of Christ’s church.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
RickyJ posted on 2006-07-04 10:53:49 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#75. To: All (#74)
made in the image of God.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
RickyJ posted on 2006-07-04 11:01:09 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#76. To: Red Jones (#6)
maybe the king was given certain authority, no more

If Scripture is your guide, then, yes, all authority belongs to God and a little bit of it is delegated. The civil authority (the kind) has the power to punish certain crimes but that's all.

Ada posted on 2006-07-04 11:14:24 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#77. To: Arator (#32)
In the context of the Letter to the Romans, a letter addressed to new Gentile Christians still possessed of all manner of pagan baggage and much in need of instruction in the oracles of God,

The Romans Paul was addressing were all Jews, i.e, the Jewish congregation in Rome. They needed no instruction from Paul on Jewish law.

Ada posted on 2006-07-04 11:39:00 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#78. To: Arator (#73)
Acs 21:17-18
And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

What elders do you think Paul is talking about here? IMO these were the type of rulers Paul was taking about in Romans 13.
Acts 20:17
And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
Now read down to verse 28 of the same chapter and see how Paul describes them,
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
An overseer does have a postion of authority and is indeed a power ordained by God.
Now concerning Paul practicing the old-law of sacrifice: Paul did indeed keep the purifying laws, but the questoin is why did he do this when he knew and even proclaimed himself that the old-law of sacrafices were done away with?
Acts 21:26
Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
Paul said he would be all things to all people in order to possibly reach them for Jesus Christ. If it meant obeying laws that were no longer in effect, so be it.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
RickyJ posted on 2006-07-04 12:29:55 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#79. To: All (#78)
An overseer does have a postion of authority and is indeed a power ordained by God.

Corection to the above:
An overseer does have a postion of authority and the elders talked about here are indeed a power ordained by God.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
RickyJ posted on 2006-07-04 12:35:49 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#80. To: IndieTX (#31)
Thanks Indie...hope you had a great 4th.

Freedomsnotfree posted on 2006-07-04 14:53:36 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#81. To: noone222, BTP Holdings, Red Jones, All (#58)
Christ himself stated that he didn't come to change the law, but to fulfill or establish it. He even went so far as to say that not a jot or tittle of the law would pass before heaven and earth passed away.
[Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. ]

I was two hours into replying to your post, when I went to a google cache, and THEN to the original URL, which proceeded to crash my little computer. I tried it again, to see if it was just because I had too much stuff on it. Nope, it did it again. I lost everything. I have some things to do, but God Willing, I will be back to answer your post, point by point. I am a little slow, so in the meantime, would you please clarify for me, that you believe only the "white ten tribes of Israel" are true Israel, and that peoples of other nations, tribes, and tongues, like the Ethiopian are not? Because if this is what you believe, everything in me recoils at the thought. If this is the God you worship, it is no wonder so many people are turned off. If this is not the case, please forgive me, and I will not spend any more time on that particular issue.
The article that crashed my computer: I'd say it doesn't fit into someone's agenda, so I'd recommend everyone make a copy and spread it far and wide, particularly in Tim LaHaye territory. I agree with this, except that I believe God IS building His kingdom on earth [I will explain if anyone wants me to. One thought: Jesus said, My kingdom is not NOW of this world.]:
Global Elite Promoting ‘End Times’ Myth

Television gurus preaching a fraudulent “end times” and “last days” theory popularized in the 19th century are helping lay the groundwork for world government by corralling good Christians into supporting a doctrine that has no Biblical basis.
True Christian fundamentalism, based on the teachings of the Bible takes the Bible at its word and accepts that Christ accomplished all that he intended to do while on Earth and that His kingdom is here and is within you. That’s the powerful thesis put forth by John Anderson, producer of the video The Last Days. On Dec. 16, Anderson made a return appearance on Radio Free America (RFA), the weekly call-in talk forum sponsored by American Free Press with host Tom Valentine. (A transcript of Anderson’s first appearance on RFA was published in AFP’s issue No. 19.)
What follows is an edited transcript of the interview. Comments by Valentine are in boldface. Anderson’s responses are in regular text.

The person responsible for popularizing this clap-trap that the “end times” and “last days” are coming was a shady character named Cyrus I. Scofield.
That’s true, but Scofield was not the originator. Scofield got these false teachings from John Darby, who got it from Edward Irving and Margaret McDonald, a 14-year-old girl who had a dream and began writing letters to Irving describing what she thought was going to happen.
Darby was one of the Plymouth Brethren and when Scofield got hold of what Darby and others were teaching, he produced the Scofield Bible in 1909 and there have been many revisions of it since then. Although they never say “who” revised Scofield’s work.
Researchers have said that it was a powerful New York attorney, Samuel Untermyer, who was instrumental in arranging for the Oxford Press, which was controlled by the Rothschild banking family, patrons of the Zionist movement, to publish the Scofield “bible.”
Students of history recall that Untermyer, who was a major player in the Zionist movement, was the one who blackmailed President Woodrow Wilson with the love letters that Wilson sent to his mistress, a certain Mrs. Peck. The history of this sordid affair was described in The Barnes Review* in its March/April 2000 issue. In its January/ February 2001 issue, The Barnes Review described Untermyer’s famous “holy war” speech that helped launch World War II.
So many people today believe that the words of Scofield are the words of the scripture. I tell people that if you’ve got a Scofield “bible,” then throw it away.
Most people who call themselves Christians do not study and read God’s word for themselves or they allow their thinking to be influenced what they have been told based on the teachings of Scofield.
If you look at the Tim LaHaye series, Left Behind, he and his associate have each made some $10 million on this, playing on the fear and unknowing faith of the Christian public. Doom and gloom sells, but truth does not.
Thanks to the influence of Scofield and his sponsors, Untermyer and the Rothschild family, many Christians today believe that God promised a certain tract of land in the Middle East to the people we know today as Israelis.
You are referring to the promise that God made to Abraham. God keeps his word and he certainly did. In Joshua 21, verses 43-45, it says that the Lord God gave unto Israel all the land. So God did fulfill the promise that he made to Abraham.
But was the promise of this land to those known as the Hebrews a promise that this would be their land forever?
No, it was not. First of all, the old covenant between God and the Hebrews was conditional. Although God kept his word, there was nothing in that promise that it would be that way forever. The old covenant was conditional.
The key word is “if.” That is, if the Hebrews kept their part in their covenant with God. But all throughout scripture the prophets continue to predict that the Hebrews will break that covenant by disobeying God and that, eventually, they will lose it all.
And eventually, they did lose it all. This is what is important: it was never solely an ethnic issue as to who “Israel” was. The issue always had to do with those who had faith and believed in God.
For example, the United States is often referred to as a “Christian nation.” That does not mean that everyone in the United States is a Christian. But those who follow Christ by faith and by faith alone are of that spiritual seed.
In Numbers 9:14, if strangers came in and kept the ordinances and the males were circumcised, they were accepted as a part of Israel. So it was not that this exclusive, nationalistic issue that many people try to hang onto. Spiritual Israel was always the issue.
God said that Israel as a racial entity was going to be the one that the prophecies were made to and the messiah was going to come through. God divorced Israel but he did not divorce Judah, because the messiah had to come through Judah, as the prophecy was made in Genesis 49:10.
Remember the parable that Jesus used about wineskin? He said you did not put new wine into an old wineskin. The issue was that the new covenant was not going to be accepted by old covenant Israel.
That’s the key thing: people with power in this world refused to accept God’s prophecy and what He had brought about. You have people who call themselves “Christians” who believe that this “Israel” of today is still the Promised Land and that God’s promise is going on in perpetuity and that God has a hand in this modern-day political mess in the Middle East and that we have an “end times” coming. They suggest that Christ effectively failed and did not fulfill God’s plan.
That is exactly what dispensational theology teaches: The Jews rejected the kingdom and, as a result, it was put on hold. That’s utter nonsense. When they came to Christ and tried to make him king after He had fed the 5,000, he slipped away from them. He had not come to set up a physical kingdom. That was never His intent. It was always a spiritual kingdom with a spiritual people.
To expect Christ to return and rule over a literal kingdom is to believe that everything Christ did when he was here on Earth was a failure. How could the Son of God be a failure?
Correct. The people who are saying that Christ failed and has to return are suggesting that God was caught off guard and He had to come up with a “Plan B.” That’s absurd. Yet we still have many evangelical Christians believing this nonsense, thanks to Scofield.
The historical and Biblical truths about the destruction of Jerusalem are not something that is widely taught to Christians in America today. Christians are not taught that this was the fulfillment of God’s promise and was literally the hand of God Himself destroying the old order completely and totally.
Every Jew knew that the “Heaven and the Earth” was the temple. That’s what Jesus meant when He said that “Heaven and Earth” would pass but that His word would not pass. That is the prophecy of Isaiah 65: the New Jerusalem that came out of Heaven, the new “Heaven and Earth” that John spoke about in Revelation 21 when he said he saw a new Heaven and Earth and no more sea. What John was saying was that there was no more separation, no more exclusivity. Now God’s kingdom was open to all.
The destruction of Jerusalem and the physical destruction of the old temple by the Roman armies was a signal that God’s kingdom was now in place. Christ predicted in Matthew 24 what would happen, and the truth is that what happened in Jerusalem in the times of Titus—the Roman who destroyed Jerusalem—you cannot find anything else in history to match it for horrible events.
Christ said that the whole system that the Pharisees stood for was going to be destroyed. His disciples came to him on the Mount of Olives and asked, “When shall these things be?” Every one of them knew that there was going to be a new Heaven and Earth, a new age, a new covenant. Christ described to them all that would happen before it would transpire.
Today people say that we are living in “the last days” and the world is coming to an end, but in Luke 21 (which is parallel to Matthew 24 and Mark 13), Christ said, “Take heed that you be not deceived for many shall come in my name, saying, ‘I am Christ. The end draweth near.” He said you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars and then said that there would be wrath upon “this people.” That’s the key: he’s referring to the flesh-and-blood individuals he was talking to at that time. The issue in Luke 21 is that he said that only the apostles themselves would be able to say when the end had come. That means that anyone after them would be a false prophet if they were predicting the end times had come to Earth.
The prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem was made to those people in that land, not to the whole world and that is another key to understanding all of this.
The people of Jerusalem practically ate each other. It was a horrendous end time in the most classic sense.
Josephus, the historian, even said that if Titus, the Roman, had not lifted his finger, the Jews of the time would have probably destroyed themselves from within. More than a million were killed and, at the end, only 100,000 were left. They went into captivity.
There is a well-known Christian columnist, Cal Thomas, who seems to believe that everything Israeli leader Ariel Sharon does is directed by God Himself.
That is the sentiment today: that everything Israel does is because it is ordained by God.
The original “Israel” was dissolved by God, and if you look at the world today from a correct Biblical sense, based upon what we have in the Bible, there is no such thing as a “Jew.”
The Jewish Encyclopedia itself says there is no such thing as a Jewish race. There is only a Jewish religion now and that is what came out of Babylon and had nothing to do with the Bible and its times.
Is today’s Judaism the religion of the tribe of Judah?
Predominantly today, yes. Under the years of Babylonian captivity they came up with the synagogue-type of Judaism that is being practiced today. When you start looking at the Jewish Talmud, you find things to tally contrary to God’s word, yet there are some today who say that “Christianity came out of Judaism,” and that is absurd. We are not a Judeo-Christian country. The United States started out as a Godly, Christian country. Not all of those who founded this country were Christian but at least the ideas of the Bible were incorporated into our nation by many of the Founding Fathers.
God had his prophets on the Earth and when Christ fulfilled the promise, the temple was gone and the old way of doing things was wiped out.
It was fulfilled. It’s amazing to me that there are those who don’t believe it. We say “trust in Jesus” and “take him at His word,” but many don’t.
Every single person has Jesus right there if he so chooses. It has nothing to do with race or sex or height or anything. God’s kingdom is within us.
It is open to any and all who believe in the finished work of Jesus Christ. H

* For information on ordering issues of The Barnes Review, call (877) 773-9077, email barnesrev@hotmail.com or write P.O. Box 15877, Washington, D.C. 20003.
URL SHOULD be: http://www.americanfreepress.net/RFA_Articles/Global_Elite_Promoting__En d_Ti/glo bal_elite_promoting__end_ti.html

noone222, after reading this, do you still want me to continue? I had about 28 Blueletterbible windows open to refute what you said, on one point alone. I'll be happy to pull them up again, if need be. I'm not trying to be cranky, but God is no racist, and I won't let him be construed as such.
I noticed http://historicist.com has/had this article. I did not check to see if it is still up.
BTP, is there something up with americanfreepress?

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-04 15:00:39 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#82. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#81)
BTP, is there something up with americanfreepress?

Nope. That is one of the subjects they have covered.
"To be nobody-but-yourself - in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else - means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can ever fight; and never stop fighting." E.E. Cummings
BTP Holdings posted on 2006-07-04 16:53:42 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#83. To: noone222 (#58)
They promote inter-racial marriages which God forbid

I don't think God ever forbade this. Moses himself had a wife of a different race.

Those that say God loves everybody are full of shit. It just ain't so.

God says he loves everybody.

The Scripture that made me really think about finding the truth was one where Christ says at the Judgment there will be "many" that will say "but lord we healed the sick and cast out demons in your name" ... to which he will reply "DEPART FROM ME FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU" ... explain that !

That's easy to explain, without love nothing you do means anything. If you don't truly love God, then it matters not what you do. God knows people's hearts, without love, true love of God, there is no salvation.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
RickyJ posted on 2006-07-04 16:57:33 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#84. To: RickyJ (#83)
They promote inter-racial marriages which God forbid
I don't think God ever forbade this. Moses himself had a wife of a different race.

I'm afraid he did!! Deuteronomy 7:1When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: 3Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
And:Ezra 10:10 And Ezra the priest stood up, and said unto them, Ye have transgressed, and have taken strange wives, to increase the trespass of Israel.
God says he loves everybody.
Agian, not true!! Malachi 1:1The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. 2I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 4Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.
That's easy to explain, without love nothing you do means anything.
So, since He said there would be MANY that He would tell to "Depart from me ye that work iniquity; for I never knew you" that means that there are many that are without love. I agree
I am not racist, purist, or any other thing which anyone may possibly construe out of my posts on this thread (which BTW has been an extremely good, thought provoking one!). BUT, the bottom line is (as pointed out by noone222) children of the Destroyer "The Wicked One" are walking among us!! And I personally think Bush - the whole line of them - and his cronies are among those children......
"This country has come to feel the same when congress is in session as when the baby gets hold of a hammer." Will Rogers..... "None can love freedom heartily but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." John Milton.....
innieway posted on 2006-07-04 17:37:03 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#85. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#81)
God is no racist, and I won't let him be construed as such.

You have given some good responses to my posts and others on this thread. I'm taking what you have said and giving it more critical thought. BUT, I did notice that a large percentage of what you were quoting was from the writings of Paul. Again, I'm not totally convinced of the virtue of Paul. His writings seem to contradict the teachings of the entire rest of Scripture so often. I have often wondered if a large portion of his stuff was written from inspiration of Satan just to throw people off.... After all, it IS the goal of the Destroyer to take as many down with him as possible.......
Anyhow, as to the text that I chose to quote from you, isn't that being just a tad pretentious (I hope I'm using the right word here) to make ANY claim as to what the Creator is/isn't should/should not be/do? It's kinda like those that say "kill em all and let God sort em out". What qualifies ANY of us to see fit to give God a job to do????
"This country has come to feel the same when congress is in session as when the baby gets hold of a hammer." Will Rogers..... "None can love freedom heartily but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." John Milton.....
innieway posted on 2006-07-04 17:53:05 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#86. To: ALL (#0)
To all who may be more interested in reading more on the subject of Israel, and Jews - and I do mean a HUGE library of information try this link:
http://www.israelect.com/reference/Willie-Martin/was_index.html
At the top of this page is the whole Willie Martin archive. He has devoted more time to the subject than most of us could possibly conceive of doing
"This country has come to feel the same when congress is in session as when the baby gets hold of a hammer." Will Rogers..... "None can love freedom heartily but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." John Milton.....
innieway posted on 2006-07-04 17:57:01 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#87. To: BTP Holdings (#82)
No. I meant, when I linked to their URL, some strange site started to come up, and it shut me down. Twice. When I get a chance, I'll try their home page. My fear is someone may be messing with them, like they did with We Hold These Truths.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-04 18:32:44 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#88. To: innieway (#86)
At the top of this page is the whole Willie Martin archive.

Couldn't have said it better myself !
Matthew 7:6
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds (smites) you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams ... and I concur !
noone222 posted on 2006-07-04 18:35:19 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#89. To: Red Jones (#65)
I am of the belief as I've said here many times that our country will be destroyed more or less completely, and that this is god's plan.

I'm afraid you're right Red. And not just our country either. And there is a very good reason for this. There simply isn't room for everyone here after the resurrection. You see, Heaven is right here on Earth. I know, that sounds kooky, but as you mentioned in the post I'm responding to that the Messiah is coming back HERE to establish His Kingdom.....
Here is a link to George Gordon... http://www.georgegordon.com/Radio_Archives.htm If you've never heard of him, do yourself a favor (and everyone else too) and give him a listen. He has a thing called the Law Hour, and all his shows are archived here. For the purposes of the topic on this thread, scroll down to August 2005 and listen to the shows titled "Scriptural View On Christianity" and "Is Heaven the Reward of the Saved?" A total of 7 hours of some of the most informative listening you'll find... I heard Alex Jones say once that the more he listens to Gordon, the more he finds himself in agreement with what he has to say.
Gordon also has MANY MANY topics that are worth listening to. Things about Social Security, Tax Protest, Bird Flu, The Lost Tribes of Israel, Identity Theft, the list goes on and on.....
Like you said, none of us has all the answers, BUT I feel there is no doubt that you are on the right track, and I think you'll enjoy Gordon's perspective. He puts up an argument that is almost impossible to contradict...
And check out the Willie Martin files I posted on this thread a bit ago. TONS AND TONS of exhausting research there that lays out a great deal of info on the topic of this thread.
"This country has come to feel the same when congress is in session as when the baby gets hold of a hammer." Will Rogers..... "None can love freedom heartily but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." John Milton.....
innieway posted on 2006-07-04 18:45:35 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#90. To: All (#89)
Here is a link to George Gordon

http://www.georgegordon.com/Radio_Archives.htm
"This country has come to feel the same when congress is in session as when the baby gets hold of a hammer." Will Rogers..... "None can love freedom heartily but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." John Milton.....
innieway posted on 2006-07-04 18:46:26 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#91. To: innieway (#89)
Thanks, I bookmarked that George Gordon site and am downloading some of those files. but unfortunately I can't listen to them until I get the speakers repaired. and that might be a month or so.

Red Jones posted on 2006-07-04 19:24:03 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#92. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#87)
My fear is someone may be messing with them, like they did with We Hold These Truths.

Always a possibility, but they have a good webmaster and server. I tried that URL and no luck. I got the dreaded 404 error.
"To be nobody-but-yourself - in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else - means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can ever fight; and never stop fighting." E.E. Cummings
BTP Holdings posted on 2006-07-04 19:42:53 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#93. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#81)
(1). Every Jew knew that the “Heaven and the Earth” was the temple. That’s what Jesus meant when He said that “Heaven and Earth” would pass but that His word would not pass.

(1). This conclusion is ridiculous, and even dangerous. If Jesus wanted to say that the Temple would pass before his law passed ... that's what he would have said. To manufacture such an interpretation leaves all Scripture subject to conjecture. God cannot lie, but whomever determined this "loose interpretation" has the ability. The Scriptures are not given to "private" interpretation. Let God be true and all men liars (including Paul).
As far as whether or not I believe the Ten Lost Tribes of Jacob/Israel were "all" white; I don't think it possible to determine the exact genetic make-up of all ten of the so-called lost tribes. However, some of them being white is most probable. Jacob (whose name was changed to Israel) had children by four women, two of which bore 5 sons that were most likely white.
Reuben, Levi, Simeon, Judah and Joseph were probably white. The other sons were born of two sisters that were handmaidens, of which their ethnicity is unknown. It should be noted however that Jacob's mother had recommended that he marry his cousins, the daughters of Laban (her own brother) so as not to marry outside their own race. It's possible that the handmaidens were white as well, but I don't have enough real evidence to support that as being fact.
Both Sarah, Abraham's wife, and Rebecca, Isaac's wife (Jacob's mom) are described as "fair" complexioned. The name Laban, (who was Rebecca's brother, Jacob's uncle and the father of two of Jacob's wives, means "whited", or "to be white". King David of Israel, descended from Jacob through Judah is said to be "ruddy complected". There are many references in the Scriptures to these things, but the politically correct churches don't teach it.
Many people make statements like "I believe this" or "I believe that" and the truth doesn't give a tinkers damn what people choose to believe. To be frank, I didn't want to believe these truths either when they were related to me. I thought, like everyone else does, that these people calling themselves Jews were the chosen people of promise. That's what everyone had told me my whole life and I was angered by the person that tried to tell me these things.
I determined to prove him wrong by doing the research necessary to refute what he was saying. I did the research and had to apologize for my ignorance, he was right. The more I searched, the more evidence I found to support the very subject I was trying to disprove.
As a matter of fact, doing the research to prove my own political correctness, and that I was not a bigot or white racist, actually opened the Scriptures to me for the first time, enabling me to understand many things that were formerly obscurities that made me ask the question, "what do these Scriptures have to do with me" ? Like so much else that we have been lied to about, this was just another one of those things.
Then, after realizing that whites were probably part of the lost tribes of Israel, I thought, so what. I haven't done anything remarkable, so what's the point. And I still have questions, lots of them. But none of them have to do with who the Ten Tribes are in reality, but more importantly "WHO THEY ARE NOT".
And they definitely ARE NOT WHO WE HAVE BEEN TOLD THEY ARE. And this international lie has put us on the path to a nuclear disaster beyond comprehension. What's worse, is that the lie is promoted by people that should read and understand the Scriptures, but instead "ignorantly" call people like me a hater or a bigot based on their emotions alone and not on what the Bible actually states as fact.
I'm stubborn so I understand it when I see it in others. That's why I won't shut up either. I'm so sickened by the deeds of these people that go unchallenged because they have conned the world into believing a huge lie. Maybe like innieway said, an Identity theft amounting to "the crime of the century".
Lastly, let me close with this challenge. Forget what the paid pulpit prostitutes have ever told you. They like your history teachers are a bunch of dupes or liars. Find out what "all" of the promises made to Abraham were, and determine who has actually fulfilled them. The Promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled by a people, but none have been accomplished by the so-called Jews. Again, test the promises of God to Abraham to see who has fulfilled them and forget the double talking preachers that say shit like when Jesus said Heaven and Earth he really meant the Temple ... what nonsense.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds (smites) you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams ... and I concur !
noone222 posted on 2006-07-04 20:15:43 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#94. To: innieway, Red Jones (#86)
This is long. If you sense my passion, it is not against you. It is against this heresy that has waylaid you, and so many others. It has to be laid to rest if there is ever going to be any peace in the world. John Coleman, in his book COMMITTEE OF 300, apparently called the British Empire the scourge of the earth. We are STILL enslaved to them, or maybe more accurately to the crown which is THE CITY OF LONDON [ THE UNITED STATES IS STILL A BRITISH COLONY EXTORTING TAXES FOR THE CROWN! Welcome! A DOCUMENTARY REVIEW OF CHARTERS AND TREATIES August 17, www.apfn.org/APFN/bcolony.htm ]

I was going to ask someone to tell me what doctrine this was that you all were preaching. It sounded like British-Israelism, and skimming through this page:
http://www.isr aelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/ANSWER.htm
I found confirmation:
Throne In Israel
"...It has been established beyond question of successful refutation that the Anglo-Saxon-Germanic-Scandinavian-Celtic peoples are the modern descendants of the northern ten-tribed Kingdom of Israel and, therefore, they constitute the House of Israel in the world today. Furthermore, it has also been definitely established that **** the throne in Great Britain is the Throne of David which was established over the House of Israel in the Isles.

The throne in Great Britain is presided over by heathens and Druids and Freemasons! Do you buy into all that DaVinci Code blasphemy as well, because this is what this is all about. The monarchy think they have some divine right of kings to rule the world because of some phony claim to the lineage of David. [See Here is the first bit of hogwash I brought up to hopefully show the ludicrous nature of this:

http://www.archdruid.co.uk/

"...The coming of Joseph of Aramathea and the boy Jesus to Glastonbury at the dawn of the Christian era is regarded as fact locally, along with the memory that the Druids of the time gave Joseph twelve hides of land on which to build the first Christian Church in the world after the crucifixion, long before Romanised Christianity!
500 years later again, at a time when the original message of the Celtic Druid/Christian infusion was being lost, Arthur and the Maenarch Merlin strove to preserve the ancient wisdom against the coming of the Dark Ages. 500 years later again, the Celtic Scholar Dunstan, often referred to as the Christian Merlin, unified the Kingdom, wrote the coronation service still in use to this day, and re-established much of the old Druidic lore in Christian guise. 500 years later Queen Elizabeth 1st astrologer, Dr. John Dee, and fellow confident, Edward Kelly, rediscovered the outlines of the Glastonbury Zodiac, claimed to have obtained the philosopher's stone, and substantiated the claim of Elizabeth 1st to be Defender of the Faith in Britain on the grounds that Glastonbury received the Christian message over a hundred years before Rome!
500 Years later in our present era, Honorary Archdruid and dear friend of the Order, the antiquary and visionary writer John Michell, popularised and extended research into Ley Lines and Stone Circles, such that the Ley Lines of Britain are now a common household word. Much of his early work, for instance The View Over Atlantis, was written in Glastonbury, and it was with his encouragement and enthusiasm for the old ways that led to the Order as it is today, being formed by the late Jacqueline Memory Patterson and Elder Archdruid Rollo Maughfling. Traditionally, Glastonbury is the seat of the Archdruid of Britain, and Stonehenge is Britain's High Place of Assembly.
The Glastonbury Order of Druids consists of three rays.
The magical inner order - Merlin's call.
The Outer Order - Queen's call
Grail Knights, (who are Healers, Therapists and rest and re- couperation specialists).
The Warband - King's call
Knights of the Sword. (who are Eco-warriors: Political-Activists and road protestors)....."

WHERE in the Bible do you find ANY of this? The Bible admonishes against WIZARDRY, which is what this is.
This nonsense above goes along with this article:
BRITISH FREEMASONRY COVETS ISRAEL:
[EXCERPT]:
"....During much of his youth, Jesus lived in Britain with his uncle Joseph of Armithea, who ran a lucrative tin trading business between Cornwall and Phoenicia. While in Cornwall, Jesus learned the secrets of the Druids, a Celtic religion which was closely allied with the Essenes. Both shared a belief in fraternal love and a strict set of fatal punishments for those who betrayed the mysteries of their faiths. And both demanded a rigorous three stage initiation process for those wishing to be privy to those mysteries.
Jesus was in Rome at the time of his brother's crucifixion. He and his family and followers escaped the city in the wake of the crackdown on Zealots following Judas Thomas's revolt. Most went to Marseilles and from there spread throughout Gaul and Britain. Jesus and his wife fled to Britain.
Yes, wife. According to British Freemasonry, he had four of them. His first, a Nabatean named Cypros produced five children, the most famous being Caradoc, a future king who would fight Rome with savage success.
But it was the second, Mary Magdelene who was even more significant. Her father was an early British Celtic king and she a Celtic princess. Their children and all their descendants produced the British royal lineage. With this marriage, Jesus became a Celtic royal and he was given a suitable new royal name, Jesus Cunobeline.
Shortly after his arrival in Britain, Jesus Cunobeline and his family were given royal jurisdiction over a huge tract of land in southern Wales. It is for this reason that the Prince Of Wales is considered a direct anscestor of the first king of modern Wales, Jesus Cunobeline, with privileges that extend to all of Judaism and Israel.
Just before Emperor Claudius attacked Britain, Jesus abdicated his crown to his son Caradoc, who defeated the Romans at every turn. But through trickery, he and his father, Jesus Cunobeline were captured and shipped in shackles to Rome. Caradoc appealed to the Roman Senate for clemency and was granted it on condition that Britain never fought Rome on its soil again. He accepted the proviso and he and his entourage were given a palace of their own. Jesus lived there for seven years.
Then he sailed to Egypt to learn the secrets of the Egyptian mystery schools. He was an honored student and soaked in the secret handshakes, cryptic messages and graduated revelations. The Christianity of Jesus became Freemasonry. [NOTE: Freemasonry = Noachide, which claims that Jesus is a false prophet who is boiling in hell in excrement.]
Jesus wanted to share his new complete Essene/Druidic/Essene religion and that proved his undoing. He was stoned to death in London, aged 63, for betraying his vows and revealing the secrets of the mystery schools....."
If you want to read the rest: http://www.rense.com/general28/br it.htm
Further evidence that the Throne of England is NOT of the Christian faith:

"Considering that John Stott is a leader of the Anglican Church, the following news report of an Anglican-Druid dialogue is revealing:

“SENIOR Church of England clergy are to join Druids and pagans at a controversial conference... The conference, Spirit of the Land 2000, is described as ‘a Christian-Druid dialogue and reconciliation meeting for the new Millennium’. It is being held against a background of growing interest in New Age religion and white magic. Organisers of the event include Emma Restall Orr, the joint chief of the British Druid Order, the Rev Marcus Small, a vicar in Hertfordshire, and the Dean of Guildford, the Very Rev Alexander Wedderspoon...a number of clergy already participated in joint Christian and pagan services, but there was still too much ignorance and hostility. Mark Graham, of the Pagan Federation, which represents Druidry, wicca and sharmanism, said: ‘Some pagans believe in magic, just like some Christians believe in the power of prayer and miracles.’ ‘We celebrate our connectedness to nature and **** I will sometimes dance naked around a fire. They aren't doing much dancing around a fire naked at matins or evensong but perhaps they should. Perhaps they will like it.’ ...The day-long conference at Amesbury, Wiltshire, in June, will be chaired by Rosemary Hartill, the former BBC religious affairs correspondent. Speakers include Martin Palmer, a former adviser to Prince Philip, and Ronald Hutton, a professor of history at Bristol University. The event will end with a Christian service and a Druid ceremony in which a green-robed priestess will make offerings of bread and mead...” [Source: “Alarm Over Church Talks With Druids,” Jonathan Petre, Sunday, May 21, 2000; Issue 1822, Electronic Telegraph]

As previously mentioned, John Stott was honorary chaplain to the Queen of England for 32 years. In their book, The Trojan Horse: How the New Age Infiltrates the Church, Brenda Scott and Samantha Smith associate both the Order of Freemasons and the British Royal Family with the Druid cult:

"Druid traditions were also preserved with Freemasonry, which is thought to have evolved from the Druids or at least alongside of them. This connection is addressed in Gould's History of Freemasonry. (James Bonwick, Irish Druids and Old Irish Religions, Salem N.H.: Ayer Co., 1984, p. 71) The three part structure of the masons is identical to the three offices of druidic priesthood: Ovates, Bards, and Druids. Also, ‘the secret teachings embodied therein are practically the same as the mysteries concealed under the allegories of Blue Lodge masonry.’ (Manly P. Hall, An Encyclopedic Outline of Masonic, Hermetic, Qabbalist and Rosicrucian Symbolic Philosophy, Los Angeles: The Philosophical Research Soc., 1977, XXIII).
"Political and religious suppression forced the Druids to go underground. Many thought that the religion had disappeared, but it survived, handed down within families and villages to resurface again in the early eighteenth century. There are three main druidic colleges. . .In fact, druidism has become so accepted socially that Queen Elizabeth II and the Prince of Wales both accepted posts as honorary Druids in the Wales Gorsedd. (ff. “The Gnosis Interview,” Sophie Moore)… By 1988, there were estimated to be over one million adepts (spiritual masters) and the movement is growing." [The Trojan Horse, Huntington House Pub., 1993, pp. 59,60)

Editor’s Note: A Chronology of Major Movements: Oxford University documents the founding of Oxford University by the Ancient Order of Druids. Oxford University was also the origin of the Oxford Movement which launched the Counter- Reformation in England. Also at Oxford University, the elite of the English- speaking countries are trained to work toward the federation, expansion and consolidation of the British Empire with funding from the Cecil Rhodes Trust....."
SPIRITUAL COUNTERFEITS PROJECT 1
http://watch.pair.com/cult- scp1.html
Prince Charles now claims to be NOT the defender of the Christian faith, but the defender of FAITHS:

Christian News, Updated Daily - Christian Today > Prince Claims to ...Prince Claims to be Defender of All Faiths, Not "The" Faith http://www.christiantod ay.com/news/church/prince. claims.to.be.defender.of.all.faiths.not.the.faith/1178.htm

Prince Charles is said to be behind the UN program of sustainable development, which promises to divest folks of their private property and ENSLAVE THEM:
"....There were policy papers put forth which they hoped would be used as the framework for a Treaty on International Sustainable Development Law. Their actions reaffirmed Chapter 39 of Agenda 21 which recognizes the need to continue progressive development and codification of international law related to sustainable development. It should be noted that these laws will be incorporated into every local and national level of law worldwide.
For those of us with Christian values, this is the anti-thesis of what we believe for sustainable development is pagan. It perverts Genesis 1, 2, and 3 in that it puts the earth as being dominant over man and not man as having dominance over the earth-hence, you and I have no value since we have been demoted to the same value as an animal or plant. So what do you think is the end result of international sustainable development law? Enslavement.
Now who were THE players behind the birthing of sustainable development? To my surprise, it was Prince Charles. Not happy with the Christian faith, Charles turned to "para- psychology" which some define as "dabbling in the occult." He was greatly influenced by the South African-born writer, explorer, and mystic Laurens van der Post who was a friend of his grandmother, the Queen Mother. The prince was also influenced by James Lovelock, a British scientist who formulated the "Gaia hypothesis, which today is known as the worship of the earth, a belief based on the Greek goddess Gaia, the Earth Mother. Charles concurs with the perversion of Genesis 1, 2, and 3....."
SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT, AGENDA 21 AND PRINCE CHARLES by Joan Veon
http://www.newswithviews.com /Veon/joan19.htm

See also PRINCE CHARLES, THE SUSTAINABLE PRINCE by Joan Veon
"PRINCE CHARLES THE SUSTAINABLE PRINCE
What this means is that Prince Charles, as heir to the British throne, has a bigger role to play in world affairs than what people could imagine. Joan Veon knows that he is a "Renaissance man: and a man with a mission. As a result of his behind-the-scenes role at the United Nations, Prince Charles is responsible for changing the order of life from the biblical perspective of man having dominance over the earth to one in which the earth has dominance over man. One of the major environmental philosophies which runs tantamount to this is that of "sustainable development." Because of his global orchestrations, Veon has dubbed Charles "the sustainable prince."...."
http://www.newswithv iews.com/HNB/Hot_New_Books12.htm

Here is the genealogy they claim. Note the BLASPHEMOUS FECUNDATING CROSS AND CROWN at Jesus Christ's name. [search FECUNDATING CROSS AND CROWN TIM LAHAYE]
THE ROYAL HOUSE OF BRITAIN
http://www.asis.com/~stag/royalty. html
PLEASE NOTE THAT BUSH, CHENEY, ET AL, IN FACT MOST OF OUR PRESIDENTS ARE RELATED TO THESE IMPOSTERS:
US "ROYAL" PRESIDENTS:
http://www.asis.com/~stag/uspres.ht ml
http://www.familyfo rest.com/Kerry_Bush_Ancestors.html
http://www.familyfore st.com/Kerry_Bush_Cousins.html
After seeing the name of all these kings and rulers of the earth, please ponder Psalm 2:

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying],

Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.....

http://www.bluelette rbible.org/kjv/Psa/Psa002.html#1
Then remember what Cornwallis said to George Washington:

"...Six months before Senator Joseph McCarthy's mouth was closed forever, he presented an article titled George Washington's Surrender, in which he quoted British General Cornwallis. The full article can be found in The Union Jack - Epilogue:
"Jonathan Williams recorded in his LEGIONS OF SATAN, 1781, that Cornwallis revealed to Washington that, "A holy war will now begin on America, and when it is ended America will be supposedly the citadel of freedom, but her millions will unknowingly be loyal subjects to the Crown."
"Cornwallis went on to explain what would seem to be a self contradiction
"Your churches will be used to teach the Jew's religion and in less than two hundred years the whole nation will be working for divine world government. That government that they believe to be divine will be the British Empire. All religions will be permeated with Judaism without even being noticed by the masses, and they will all be under the invisible all-seeing eye of the Grand Architect of Freemasonry." ...."
http://ww w.sweetliberty.org/perspective/jewishpersecution19.htm
the Anglo-Saxon-Germanic-Scandinavian-Celtic peoples are the modern descendants of the northern ten-tribed Kingdom of Israel and, therefore, they constitute the House of Israel in the world today.
It is more likely that they are of the pagan tribe of Dan, who don't want to come out of the dark into the light.
THE LOST TRIBE OF DAN
http://watch.pair.com/dan.html
I hope I've shown you that this Lost Tribes theory is false, it's antiChrist, and it's all part of the New World Order plot.

Isa 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I [am] a dry tree. +++ http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Isa/56/3.html [The Ethiopian was a eunuch.]

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Isa 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather [others] to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Isa/56/8.html

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-04 20:44:35 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#95. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#94)
the throne in Great Britain is the Throne of David which was established over the House of Israel in the Isles.

King Edward the 1st (Longshanks) was a direct descendant of the Tribe of Judah through one of the twins named Zara(h). I've done the geneological research my self, using an internet geneological search program.
Why don't you do it ?
You do know that "B'nai Brith" means "sons of the covenant" in Hebrew don't you.
"Brit-ish" means "Covenant man" and "Brit ain" means "covenant land" in Hebrew.
The Ten Northern Tribes of Israel went somewhere, they didn't evaporate.
Read the Book of Hosea, it describes the lost tribes and the fact that after a set time they will recover their identity or memory of it.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds (smites) you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams ... and I concur !
noone222 posted on 2006-07-04 21:10:23 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#96. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#94)
By the way, did you not know that God promised King David that he would never lack a descendant sitting on the throne over his people ?
God can't lie, otherwise He ain't God !
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds (smites) you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams ... and I concur !
noone222 posted on 2006-07-04 21:13:08 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#97. To: noone222, Red Jones (#93)

Lastly, let me close with this challenge. Forget what the paid pulpit prostitutes have ever told you. They like your history teachers are a bunch of dupes or liars.

It seems you base your scriptures on someone named Willie Martin.
Find out what "all" of the promises made to Abraham were, and determine who has actually fulfilled them.
Let's start with this one:

Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land [that is] not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
[Ezekiel 34:11-13/John 10; First Virginia Charter 1606; Cross at Cape Henry 1607, THE US IS STILL A BRITISH COLONY, EXTRACTING TAXES FOR THE CROWN]

Gen 15:14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

Mic 4:1 — But in the last days it shall come to pass, [that] the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

++++ http://www.blueletterbi ble.org/tsk_b/Mic/4/1.html

Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Mic 4:4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make [them] afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken [it].

Mic 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

Mic 4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

Mic 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant [Jews], and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Mic 4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Mic 4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? [is there] no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.

Mic 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

Mic 4:11 Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.
[sound familiar?]
Mic 4:12 But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.

Mic 4:13 Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.

http://www.bluelette rbible.org/kjv/Mic/Mic004.html#1
The Promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled by a people, but none have been accomplished by the so-called Jews.
I think you'd be hard-pressed to find where I ever said they were.

Again, test the promises of God to Abraham to see who has fulfilled them and forget the double talking preachers that say shit like when Jesus said Heaven and Earth he really meant the Temple ... what nonsense.
Well, OK, let's see what the Bible actually says about Heaven and Earth:
Jesus as God, said:
Isa 45:18 — For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens;God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.
http://www.blueletter bible.org/tsk_b/Isa/45/18.html

As for the Lost Tribes, Anglo-Saxon, etc., God says He will draw all nations and tongues:

Isa 66:18 For I [know] their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

Isa 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, [to] Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, [to] Tubal, and Javan, [to] the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren [for] an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests [and] for Levites, saith the LORD.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed [If you can quote Willie Martin, I can quote Paul: Gal. 3:16-29] and your name remain. [This is the true Israel]

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa066.html#22
If there is a LITERAL New Heaven and Earth, why are there dead carcasses lying around?

Here is the "New Heaven" and the "New Earth". It comes when the TARES are taken out of it:

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat013.html#40
Sounds to me like THIS LITERAL HEAVEN AND EARTH IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE. Therefore, it seems Jesus must have been talking about ANOTHER 'Heaven and Earth'.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former [Old Covenant, Old Temple, Old City] shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create [NEW] Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in [NEW] Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit [them]; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree [are] the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they [are] the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Sounds like Heaven on Earth to me!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Correlating Passages 'I create'
Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto [NEW] Zion, Thou [art] my people.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle [= NEW TEMPLE, the CHURCH] of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. the former
Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit [it]; neither shall [that] be done any more.
-----------------------------------------------------

The old covenant and the old temple and the old city have passed away:

Hbr 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: ["They are not all Israel that are of Israel.....but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom009.html#6 ]

Hbr 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Hbr/Hbr008.html#13

[End of the OLD "Heaven and Earth"]
-----------------------------------------------------

They are replaced with a new covenant, a new temple [Know ye not that ye are the temple of God?], a new city, and a NEW LAW:

Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
http://www.blueletterbi ble.org/tsk_b/Jam/2/8.html

The New Covenant also has a new people, a new House of Israel, and you better not blaspheme them in whom the Holy Spirit dwells:
Jam 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
-

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Act 10:36 The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

Act 10:37 That word, [I say], ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

Act 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, [even] to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead.

Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God......

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

I wrote this last night, and meanwhile, unbeknownst to me, one of the kids' pets was getting sick, so I will probably be dealing with that for the rest of the day, and won't be able to finish reading or writing on this thread. I'm only going on for a quick second now to post this, because I have to keep the phone line open. I apologize for this being so long. I tried to see if I could trim it down any further, but I am distracted and couldn't really think. I hope it makes sense to you, and that we can all learn from it.
I still fail to see where God made His promises strictly to "white folks, or Anglo-Saxon blah blah blah". As an example read again Isaiah 53:10, and Acts 8:26-39, and please notice that this incident was sealed with a miracle. Something tells me Jesus knew way back then, we'd be having this discussion today.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-05 8:24:26 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#98. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#97)
I still fail to see where God made His promises strictly to "white folks, or Anglo-Saxon blah blah blah".

If you refer to my post you will see that I said 5 of the sons were most likely white, and it's possible that they all were, but impossible to gather enough evidence to support such a claim.
I appreciate your references to Isaiah because that Book's legitimacy can not be denied as it is the one Book of Scripture that has been found in its entirety at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls). My research has included some of Willie Martin's thoughts and commentary, as well as Gene Scott's, Sheldon Emery's, Comparet's, Pastor Barker, Pete Peters, George Gordon, and many, many others.
None of my conclusions are based upon Scriptures attributed to Paul unless they are in obvious agreement with Christ's own words expressed elsewhere by his "actual" disciples. And I ignore any preacher, pastor or priest that accepts the Ashkenazi Jews as the chosen.
You may have misunderstood what "I" said regarding the Lost Tribes, the Promises made by Abraham and their relevance to the present day situation. I said it is more important to recognize "who isn't" entitled to those promises than who is.
I'm a little short of time at the moment, but there is a lot I'd like to say and will in a little while.
Think on this in the mean time: Jesus is quoted by Matthew as saying:
Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
The above statement by the Messiah, coupled with his statements about having other folds has lead me to think that there is a difference between "redemption" and "salvation" ... "Redemption" is a legal term.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds (smites) you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams ... and I concur !
noone222 posted on 2006-07-05 13:23:17 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#99. To: All (#98)
Your response post is very long, and quotes a wide range of Scriptures ... could we strike up a dialogue and keep our interchanges relatively short, simple and directed to one subject at a time ?
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds (smites) you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams ... and I concur !
noone222 posted on 2006-07-05 16:00:21 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#100. To: noone222, All (#99)
Thank you for bringing the matter of length of posts up.
It would be really helpful to those of us (I'm the biggest needer) who are not as well versed as y'all seem to be. Otherwise, someone might as well just post the whole Bible or book to make a point.
This has really been a good thread, an interesting one...it would be a shame to have people turn off because of feeling 'overwhelmed'. It tends to have the appearance of a BAC cut and paste....and I know that isn't the case with All the Kings personage.
I'll but out now and continue to follow the thread....

rowdee posted on 2006-07-05 16:38:18 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#101. To: rowdee (#100)
glad you like this thread rowdee.

Red Jones posted on 2006-07-06 0:19:32 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#102. To: Red Jones (#101)
It's a good learning experience, a way to broaden one's well of knowledge...none of the nasty rancor that so often crops up when discussing matters of religiousity.
I've just recently gone thru the O/T in a study that's taken over a year. It's a good feeling to recognize as you read thru some of the quoted scriptures that you just spent time in that book, or recalling specifically those verses.

rowdee posted on 2006-07-06 0:46:22 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#103. To: noone222, Red Jones (#98)
If you refer to my post you will see that I said 5 of the sons were most likely white, and it's possible that they all were, but impossible to gather enough evidence to support such a claim.

I remember you saying that and that that comes from the brother of Rebekah, Laban, which you said means "white". I was in the process of researching that earlier today, when my computer crashed, and I lost all my links. However, I made some notes, and Laban is Strong's #03837, which means "white". 1)Son of Bethuel brother of Rebekah father of Leah and Rachel 2) a wilderness encampment of the Israelites. It also comes from several root words:
#03836 which comes from #03835:
1)to be white a) (Hiphil) 1) to make white, become white, purify
to show whiteness, grow white
b) (Hithpael) to become white, be purified (ethical)
2) (Qual) to make bricks.
Laban was also a Syrian. Were Syrians more "white" back then? I seriously don't know. I tend to think of Syrians being more dark-skinned. If not, was Laban white, or is his name actually symbolic of God making him and his seed "white" as in "pure", foreshadowing the ingathering of all nations to God's grace and RIGHTEOUSNESS under the New Covenant, as per Isaiah 1:18 "Come now and let us reason together, saith the LORD; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as WHITE as snow......," through faith in Jesus Christ. I don't know, but it would seem that way to me.
As I said earlier, the Israelites, even if they did start out white, soon became a MIXED BROOD, even to the point of marrying the forbidden peoples:
Deuteronomy 7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them bfore thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy they; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them; 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou thake unto thy son. 4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. 5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. 6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath Chosen thee to be a special people onto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. 7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people; 8 But because the LORD loved you, *** and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt......
Judges 3:1 Now these are the nations which the LORD left, to prove Israel by them, even as many of Israel as had not known all the wars of Canaan: 2 Only that the generations of the children of Israel might know, to teach them war, at the least such as before knew nothing thereof. 3 Namely, five lords of the Philistines, all all the Canaanites, and the Sidonians, and the Hivites that swelt in Mount Lebanon, from mount Baal-Hermon unto the entering in of Hamath. 4 And they were to prove Israel by them, to know whether they would hearken unto the commandments of the LORD, which he commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses. 5 And the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, Hittites, and Amorites, and Perizzites, and Hivites, and Jebusites: 6 And they took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons, and served their gods. 7 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and forgat the LORD their God, and served Baalim and the groves......
In Ezekiel 8, the Bible speaks of the abominations of the House of Israel and the House of Judah in Jerusalem. Continuing in Ezekiel 16:3 God says "....Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and the mother an Hittite." Therefore, it seems unreasonable to presume the Lost Tribes are chosen for their genetic "exclusiveness", because they are NOT exlusive, but contain the genes of most, if not all of the other nations! Remember there were only 8 people on the ark. We're probably all related somewhere down the line.
The Israelites weren't chosen for their genes, or their so-called "righteousness" [they often weren't righteous, either, which is why God cast them off], but they were CHOSEN because they were the seed of the FAITHFUL Abraham, and CHOSEN TO BE GOD'S SERVANTS, to bring His Word to the heathen. When they failed, God said He would always reserve a Holy remnant, those who "had not bowed the knee to Baal", and gather others to him [Isaiah 49:6], to become the New Israel, the New priesthood. Jesus was the final fulfillment of the PHYSICAL seed of Abraham [Galatians 3:16, Luke 3:21-38 (Mary's Genealogy)], and the "chosen"/priesthood status is now open to ALL who have FAITH IN JESUS [Gal. 3:29, Isaiah 49:6].
I appreciate your references to Isaiah because that Book's legitimacy can not be denied as it is the one Book of Scripture that has been found in its entirety at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls). My research has included some of Willie Martin's thoughts and commentary, as well as Gene Scott's, Sheldon Emery's, Comparet's, Pastor Barker, Pete Peters, George Gordon, and many, many others.
None of my conclusions are based upon Scriptures attributed to Paul unless they are in obvious agreement with Christ's own words expressed elsewhere by his "actual" disciples. And I ignore any preacher, pastor or priest that accepts the Ashkenazi Jews as the chosen.
You may have misunderstood what "I" said regarding the Lost Tribes, the Promises made by Abraham and their relevance to the present day situation. I said it is more important to recognize "who isn't" entitled to those promises than who is.

I'm told that Isaiah is set up like a mini-New Testament. Isaiah is one of my favorite prophets. The Jews hated him I guess, because they "sawed him asunder with a wooden saw" according to Justin Martyr. I am also told that they do not read Isaiah 53 in their Synagogues, yet they consider themselves to be the SUFFERING SERVANT spoken of therein [See WHO IS THE SON OF GOD at http://www.noahide.com ].
I don't know enough about it, but I harbor the suspicion that the "Dead Sea Scrolls" may be another hoax contrived to destroy the truth. I'm sticking with the Bible for now.
I've seen a little of Gene Scott on TV, and reserve comment. I have read some of Pastor Sheldon Emry, and I agree with him that THE OLD JERUSALEM IS NOT THE NEW JERUSALEM. His BILLIONS FOR THE BANKERS, DEBTS FOR THE PEOPLE is another good one. However, I disagree with him ALSO that Israel is the "white, Anglo- Saxon, etc. etc."
I also do not accept the Ashkenazi Jews as the "chosen", not because of their genes, but because of their lack of faith in Jesus Christ. Look at Michael Hoffman. He is an Askenazi Jew, but you probably will not find a more erudite, vocal, and eloquent spokesman against the errors of the Jews and for the truth of Jesus Christ. Take me, FAR from his equal, descended from the "white, Anglo- Saxon, Celtic, etc. etc." according to one family name, but ALSO from the Ashkenazi Jews according to THE SAME NAME. I am also related to the top Illuminati, but I am so far removed from them spiritually it isn't funny. According to your doctrine, I should just hang it up and accept eternal damnation because I had the misfortune to have the "wrong genes". What a defeating doctrine that is. If it were true, God would have to be a sadist, and the "unchosen" would follow Satan because he would promise them the world if they would just follow him. Hmmm....sounds like a satanic plot to me.
Furthermore, if you read into The Thirteenth Tribe [the Khazars/Ashkenazis], you will find that many of the tribe were WHITE, had blond or red hair and BLUE EYES. They sound a lot like the "white, Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, etc. etc." They claimed to be THREE OF THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL. God said he had cast off three shepherds in one month because His soul abhorred them and vice versa. I would not be surprised if this was where the Ashkenazis originated, and I would not be surprised if one of the three tribes was the tribe of Dan, because the Khazars exhibited many traits of this tribe. Might they not also be part of the PHYSICAL Lost Sheep? Might it be His plan to bring them here [Micah 4:11- 13] for us to SET STRAIGHT? I don't know; but do wonder.

Think on this in the mean time: Jesus is quoted by Matthew as saying:
Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
The above statement by the Messiah, coupled with his statements about having other folds
I still maintain that "they are not all Israel that are of Israel....those of the promise are counted for the seed.." [Again, see Galatians 3:16-29, and Isaiah 49:6: It is a light thing that thou should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved (REMNANT!) of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth." Revelation 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; for thou was slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.] Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I AM the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall addunto him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part of of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.....

Did you read the link that Red Jones posted?

[ #67 http://www http://.sweet liberty.org/issues/hoax/unionjack_epilogue.htm
about 2/3's down they have the cornwallis quote. - Red Jones]

I had read it a couple of times before, but in light of this thread, I saw it with a whole new set of eyes.
Yesterday, I ran across a couple of other things that tie in with all of this:
".....The insidious legalism and Kabbalism of the Chabad Lubavitch movement [note: synonymous with the NOAHIDE LAW] has also entered the Church disguised as the Hebraic Roots Movement. Although Christians are to obey the secular authorities when it does not require them to disobey God, they are not called to establish the Old Testament or any other form of moral law to govern mankind. Nor is the Church of Jesus Christ itself under the Old Testament Law, but under Grace. (Romans 6:14) The Church Age -- the Age of Grace -- will come to a close [have to qualify the following, because I am a partial preterist, so I do not believe in the "Rapture", another NWO hoax:] with the Rapture of the Church, and the 70th week Daniel will commence God's dealings with the nation of Israel under the Mosaic Law. (Dan. 9:27)....." [Furthermore, I believe Dan. 9:27 was fulfilled with Jesus confirming the New Covenant, and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.]
UNDER THE [NOAHIDE] LAW
http://watch.pair.com/law.html
Then see the HEBRAIC ROOTS MOVEMENT ~ Judaizing the Christian Church [link at the bottome of the above page].
You had asked me earlier about Esau's hope. We tend to forget that God blessed Esau with much prosperity, and forgiveness in his heart for His brother Jacob. Story at Genesis 33.
Justin Martyr explained in his Dialagogue With Trypho a Jew [ccel.org], that God has broken down the veil of separation and has called all men to be brothers in Christ. You might want to read Ezekiel 34, and then read about the "old man" that educated Justin, and who I believe came away with a "gifted" understanding of the Scripture. Then you might ponder again "lost sheep", "other folds", and "knock and the door shall be opened". Justin had tried all the other doors to wisdom and they led nowhere. My personal opinion is that the "old man" ["Do you know me". "I have come to look for some of my HOUSEhold who have gone away from me"] was Jesus. That is one of the reasons I have difficulty understanding where all this animosity toward Paul stems from. To me, he is the perfect witness: a former Pharisee and mad persecutor of Christians, who became the most prominent disciple and proceeded to die a martyr's death, FOR WHAT PURPOSE? if he was not a true believer in the Christ who CHOSE him? Methinks some folks would like to kill the message he delivers in Galatians 3 and 4, for example.
I started this yesterday morning. After being sidetracked by another thread, crashing several times, and spending hours tracking "lost kids", I am just now getting back to this, and I STILL have not read all the comments.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-10 13:51:46 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#104. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#103)
I still maintain that "they are not all Israel that are of Israel....those of the promise are counted for the seed.." [Again, see Galatians 3:16-29, and Isaiah 49:6: It is a light thing that thou should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved (REMNANT!) of Israel:

Like I said before, I haven't determined fully that what Paul says is of any value to "me". Modern Christianity places more impetus on Paul than the rest of the Scripture, I don't. Many would simply call me a heretic ... and that's ok.
The Scriptures quoted by you above are at variance. However, Paul refers to the Book of Hosea at:
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee (Book of Hosea), I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. This refers to the overall theme of the Book of Hosea where God tells the prophet to name the kids he has by the whore God told him to marry (representing the 10 Northern Tribes that have worshipped strange gods,) "Not my people", "forgotten" and "scattered". He then relents and says a time will come when they will be My people, and beloved or remembered, and no longer scattered.
In that scripture you're quoting above, the Book of Galations, Paul calls them "gentiles", but the Gauls were of the ten northern tribes !
It was never my intention to itemize the exact lineage of every Tribe of Israel over the course of 3500 years. As a matter of fact I believe it may be beyond the realm of human possibility without a more perfect understanding of DNA, and an honest application of said knowledge should it become available.
Firstly, I think it's more important to make modern Christianity understand that it's wrong for them to call for and finance the slaughter of Arabs in support of those so-called (Ashkenazi / Israeli) Jews claiming descendancy from Abraham that are liars, and are in truth another grouping of gentiles descended from Japeth according to scripture and historical information that "IS" readily available.
[It would be quite an undertaking to analyze the true heritage of everyone of the tribes. Illegitimate children are not always determined, surely there were adoptions and other hindrances to ever knowing the exact lineage of these lost generations. I also think we've been misled to think that the peoples of the Middle-East today are the same as those that occupied the area 3500 years ago. The Egyptians were ruled by the Hyksos Kings for a very long time. Hyksos Kings means sheperd kings]. Egypt was also divided into two parts, upper and lower, having separate kings at times. Joseph, who ruled as "Prime Minister" of Egypt was the favored son of Jacob (Israel), set his dad and brothers up with estates in Goshen, which was prime real estate, and also had two boys by his Egyptian wife, their names were Ephraim and Manasseh, who were later adopted by Jacob/Israel. She may or may not have been white, we don't know.
The study is interesting and sometimes when I find conflicting issues I wonder if it's just not me that doesn't fully understand ... and many times I discover that to be the case ... a little later after more study.
I don't think there's enough time in one life to figure it all out.
Here's an interesting speculation not commonly known. After the Christ's death, Joseph of Arimthea (Jesus Uncle), Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of Jesus and Lazarus (Mary Magdalene's brother) went to first to France and some went on the Brit ain. Lazarus was the first Bishop of Marseilles, France. Some believe that Joseph of Arimthea was familiar with these lands because he was a wealthy tin merchant and the tin mines were in Britain.
See [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Lazarus ]
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds (smites) you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams ... and I concur !
noone222 posted on 2006-07-10 16:39:32 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#105. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#103)
Were Syrians more "white" back then?

I have read that there once were whites in the middle east thousands of years ago. but I wasn't there myself at that time, so I don't know.

Red Jones posted on 2006-07-11 0:20:14 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#106. To: noone222, Red Jones (#104)
Firstly, I think it's more important to make modern Christianity understand that it's wrong for them to call for and finance the slaughter of Arabs in support of those so-called (Ashkenazi / Israeli) Jews claiming descendancy from Abraham that are liars, and are in truth another grouping of gentiles descended from Japeth according to scripture and historical information that "IS" readily available.

I agree the most important thing is to destroy the myth that the people calling themselves Jews are the "chosen people", since that is the root of most of the murder and thievery going on in the world today. Although it is not my intent to render them any quarter by their race, whatever it is, do you not suppose that some of Jacob's wives may have been of the tribe of Japeth?
I don't think there's enough time in one life to figure it all out.
Agreed, and perhaps to spend too much time to do so results in "endless genealogies that cause strife". I want to spend enough time on it to destroy the myth.
Here's an interesting speculation not commonly known. After the Christ's death, Joseph of Arimthea (Jesus Uncle), Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of Jesus and Lazarus (Mary Magdalene's brother) went to first to France and some went on the Brit ain. Lazarus was the first Bishop of Marseilles, France. Some believe that Joseph of Arimthea was familiar with these lands because he was a wealthy tin merchant and the tin mines were in Britain.
I started a post on this last night, got tired, decided to unplug the internet, go to bed, and finish this morning, and my computer froze. So here I am again.
noone, I think the above is more of the British-Israel, the "British Monarchy is the throne of David, etc." myth that the NWO plans to rule the world with. They claim that the British Monarchy is the throne God chose to "get his message out".
"...The four main topics of this page are God's plan of Trusteeship, Joseph's Company of disciples coming to Britain, the outflow of Missionaries from Glastonbury, and why England was chosen for the sanctuary of Christanity.....

WHY ENGLAND?
There are some very good superficial reasons why all this took place in England. Because of Joseph's merchant business it was a known location, where Royal friends could help, and far from persecution. The deeper levels of meaning require broader levels of perspective. Without going into detail again, I'll mention that the Lost Tribes were headquartered in Britain. Ephraim and Judah, were already running the country. These folks, and their cousins that would come in later, are the very ones who God drafted to take His message to the world....."
Joseph of A.
http://asis.com/~stag/josephar.html
Church of Glastonbury [pagan] http://www.asis.com/~stag/glaston b.html
Here are some passages that would tend to disprove that God had anything but contempt for Ephraim's message:

Isa 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty [is] a fading flower, which [are] on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!

Isa 28:3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:

Jer 4:15 For a voice declareth from Dan, and publisheth affliction from mount Ephraim. [please note that Ephraim and Dan are the only two tribes that are not listed by name as being sealed by God in Rev. 7]

Jer 7:15 And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, [even] the whole seed of Ephraim.

Hsa 4:17 Ephraim [is] joined to idols: let him alone.

Hsa 5:3 I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hid from me: for now, O Ephraim, thou committest whoredom, [and] Israel is defiled.

Hsa 5:5 And the pride of Israel doth testify to his face: therefore shall Israel and Ephraim fall in their iniquity; Judah also shall fall with them.
The British Monarchy CLAIMS that they are of the tribes of Ephraim and Judah. Small wonder they would try to claim that, because ORIGINALLY, Judah received the sceptre, and Ephraim received the birthright from Joseph.

1Ch 5:2 — For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him [came] the chief ruler; but the birthright [was] Joseph's:)
http://www.blueletterbi ble.org/tsk_b/1Ch/5/2.html

Gen 48:8 And Israel beheld Joseph's sons, and said, Who [are] these?
[Now I don't put much credence in the Talmud, except that I believe the Jews have messed with the Bible, and sometimes, it is possible that the Talmud reveals some things they would really rather we didn't know. I once read that the "sages" said that when Jacob said "Who are these?", he wasn't just seeing Ephraim and Manasseh, but a whole multitude. I find that interesting. Is it possible Jacob DID see Ephraim's "children"? the multitudes, tribes, and tongues of the whole earth who would become the NEW Israel, the church? Ephraim was the leader of the ten tribes, and Ephraim is synonymous with "Israel"

Gen 48:9 And Joseph said unto his father, They [are] my sons, whom God hath given me in this [place]. And he said, Bring them, I pray thee, unto me, and I will bless them.

Gen 48:10 Now the eyes of Israel were dim for age, [so that] he could not see. And he brought them near unto him; and he kissed them, and embraced them.

Gen 48:11 And Israel said unto Joseph, I had not thought to see thy face: and, lo, God hath shewed me also thy seed.

Gen 48:12 And Joseph brought them out from between his knees, and he bowed himself with his face to the earth.

Gen 48:13 And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel's right hand, and brought [them] near unto him.

Gen 48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid [it] upon Ephraim's head, who [was] the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh [was] the firstborn.

Gen 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,

Gen 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name ["Israel"] be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Gen 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

Gen 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this [is] the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know [it], my son, I know [it]: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Gen 48:20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

Gen 48:21 And Israel said unto Joseph, Behold, I die: but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.

Gen 48:22 Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow.
http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen048.html#20
Note that here God calls EPHRAIM HIS FIRSTBORN:

Jer 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim [is] my firstborn.
However, God also says that JESUS is HIS FIRSTBORN, and the following is a very good page for you to look at:
http://www.pre teristarchive.com/Jesus_is_Israel/index.html

I had started to get a handle on all this British-Israel last night, but I really can't get into it today. You are more into than I am, so please have at it, if you will, and when you figure it all out, I would sure like to know. As I see it, there is some kind of conspiracy surrounding the NWO's take on Joseph of A. Did you know that the gargoyle-covered National Cathedral [Episcopal or Catholic-lite] has some sort of "crypt" for Joseph of A? The British-Israel myth seems to be perpetrated there as well.
If you want, look at some of these pages starting here:
http://asis.com/~stag/royalty.html

".....TROJANS/MILESIANS/CELTS/SCYTHIANS

I can recall one place in Spain that is named after a Biblical family; however not one of the tribes. This is Zaragosa, which comes from Zarah, Judah's first-born.
It was Zarah's family that ruled for over a 100 years in Egypt after Joseph's death, and before the Egyptians revolted against the (Hyksos) foreign rulers. At that time the nobility, the Zarahites, fled across the Mediterranean sea to already established cities. Cities that had been founded by their own family: Troy, Athens, Miletus, and more. Diodorus talks of two exoduses out of Egypt, one by sea, one under Moses. These Zarahites then migrated west, the Milesian/Zarahites arriving in Spain and Ireland near 600-700 BC.
One famous Trojan/Zarahite named Brutus landed in Britain 1103 BC and founded New Troy; later to be renamed London.
It's this Zarah stream of the Judah line that makes sense out of Ezekiel's prophecy of 17:22-24 and 21:25-27. The high tree is the Pharez line, the low tree is the Zarah line. Him that is high is Pharez, him that is low is Zarah. It was the Pharez line that came out of Egypt as the rulers of the Judah line (Jacob gave Judah the sceptre and lawmaking). With the Zarahites gone to the northern Mediterranean, the Pharezites took their rightful place as rulers.
The exalting of the Zarah line was when Jeremiah married off one of King Zedekiah's daughters to the High Zarahite King of Ireland about 583 BC. Thereby bringing the two lines together and establishing the Zarah line again as pre- eminent. All the kings and queens of the British Isles and northwest Europe come out of that union.
And why not? Didn't God say that David would "never want for a man on the throne?" These kings and queens out of the line of Judah were and have been ruling over the Lost Tribes these many centuries: 25-plus.
I haven't time to properly research the subject, but it has come to my attention that George Washington and other American Fathers had ties back to English nobility. And John F. Kennedy's heritage included kings of Ireland. Methinks Judah is ruling the United States as well. Here's some more information on American Presidents' ties with the line of David/European royalty ...."
Zarah you remember was the twin brother of Pharez, of their father, Judah, and their mother Tamar [THIS is the one I would like to know the geanealogy of. There is some super secret society named after Tamar.]. Zarah put his hand out first, and the midwife put a red ribbon on his wrist. Pharez came fully out first, and so he was named Pharez, which means Breach.

Gen 38:27 And it came to pass in the time of her travail, that, behold, twins [were] in her womb.

Gen 38:28 And it came to pass, when she travailed, that [the one] put out [his] hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first.

Gen 38:29 And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? [this] breach [be] upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez.

Gen 38:30 And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.
http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen038.html#27
NOTE that THE BIBLE says that PHAREZ [from whom Jesus was descended] is the firstborn. Note that THE BRITISH-ISRAEL DOCTRINE says that ZARAH is the firstborn! IS THIS THE "BREACH THAT THE REPAIRER OF THE BREACH WILL HEAL"? I don't know!
Now the Kabbalah has a red ribbon on the wrist as part of their mystical religion. Is it possible there is a connection? [See Madonna and her red- ribbon religion: http://freedom4um.com/cgi- bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=30038 ]. I don't know, and I am too tired and depressed to try to figure it out today.
All I know is, the British Monarchy is a pack of Druids and pagans, uniter of false religions, and it is said, although I have no way of proving it, that they sacrifice children in Satanic rituals. I did watch all the pomp and ceremony it took to put on just one of the Queen's dinners, and it took six months to prepare, and they even measured the distance between each plate, etc. and the distance of each chair from the table. It was all totally ridiculous. It was maddening as well, because the US IS STILL A BRITISH COLONY EXTORTING TAXES FOR THE CROWN [search http://apfn.org], and we help paid for it.
See Israel's symbols. Note Dan [His MAIN symbol is the EAGLE. see THE LOST TRIBE OF DAN at http://watch.pair.com]. Note Ephraim. Their symbols are the OX, or BULL, and the unicorn. The Brits should have read Justin Martyr. Where Jesus says in Psalm 22, the Bulls of Bashan surround me, Justin says the BULLS were THE PHARISEES.
http://asis.com/~stag/symbols.html
After you've duly noted the symbols the Brits so proudly hail, have a look at the picture here:

ANTICHRIST AND A CUP OF TEA
http://www.cuttingedge.org/d etail.cfm?ID=178
Okay, that's about all I can stand to delve into this today. It makes me irritable. noone, I know you and I are on the same side. I hope we will both be on the side of the sheep when Jesus comes to judge between the sheep and the goats.
Peace.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-12 9:33:45 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#107. To: All (#106)
and we help paid for it.

we helped pay for it. [groan]

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-12 9:40:45 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#108. To: noone222 (#106)
Didn't God say that David would "never want for a man on the throne?" These kings and queens out of the line of Judah were and have been ruling over the Lost Tribes these many centuries: 25-plus.
I haven't time to properly research the subject, but it has come to my attention that George Washington and other American Fathers had ties back to English nobility. And John F. Kennedy's heritage included kings of Ireland. Methinks Judah is ruling the United States as well. Here's some more information on American Presidents' ties with the line of David/European royalty ...."

right. Forgot to mention:
Psalms - Chapter 2
Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying],

Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
[Ezekiel 34:11-13/John 10, Michah 4. search FIRST CHARTER OF VIRGINIA 1606, CROSS PLANTED AT CAPE HENRY VIRGINIA 1607, NATION DEDICATED TO JESUS CHRIST AND THE SPREADING OF THE GOSPEL.]

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession.

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-12 9:50:27 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

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