4um: Should Christians Be Subservient To This Government?

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Title: Should Christians Be Subservient To This Government?
Source: Romans 13
URL Source: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom013.html#1
Published: Jul 2, 2006
Author: christian bible
Post Date: 2006-07-02 20:11:00 by Red Jones
Keywords: None
Views: 6704
Comments: 117

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Romans 13:5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Romans 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Romans 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Romans 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].
a very provocative question in the title. I hope people will not be offended by it.
I have read some people's views here who criticize christians and say that the christians are overly-submissive to government's fascism.
I think there is a fine line, but a very important distinction still, between submitting to government's legitimate authority and supporting them in their evil. I try to do the former, but not the later.
I think we should be aware of the evil, but not supportive of it. Nevertheless, I personally feel we should take Romans 13 and similar verses seriously and submit to the authority that is put over us. I remember the story in the early chapters of Daniel when the Babylonians took over Jerusalem. Daniel submitted to their authority. but he told his friends that they would secretly keep the old rituals up even though the new king told them not to do this. He did not outwardly rebel, he did not raise up rebels. He only secretly obtained the things he needed and carried out the old rituals behind-closed-doors. And when the king came and told him to openly worship the new god he simply told the king that he would not do this. When the king told him he'd have him thrown in a furnace for defiance, then Daniel told the king that he would submit to this and that if this happened then his god was powerful enough to protect him from the furnace if he so chose to do so. Then the king threw him and his friends in the furnace. Then Daniel and his friends did not burn. Then the king ordered the court's accusers of Daniel to be thrown in the furnace instead. And he appointed Daniel to a high position knowing full well that he refused to worship the new god. And the king even paid respect to Daniel's god. To me Daniel was the model we should follow. He submitted to the legitimate authority of those over him here on earth. But he always worshiped god and not the king's false god. He was respectful of the authorities and did nothing to cause a rebellion. but he prevailed anyway with the help of god. To me Daniel is our model for today.
What say ye?
I think that the 'fallen-away' phenomenon is very real - that a large portion of the organized church has a faith that is against god, and yet they masquerade. And I think the 'deceived' factor is very strong. In these end-times many have beendeceived by the enemy. It is good not to be fallen-away. and it is good not to be deceived. but we still must at least submit to the authorities over us.
I keep telling people we are not going to defeat them. Until jesus returns. we should remember that the meek shall inherit the earth. The kingdom of heaven will come. The evil ones will be punished. Revenge is not ours', it is his. the sheep will be separated from the goats.
we must build our faith and do good works, look what it says in verse 3, the evil rulers cannot stop you when you do these good works. The things of man are being discredited in a powerful way. We cannot stop these events. we should be humble over them instead.
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#78. To: Arator (#73)
Acs 21:17-18
And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

What elders do you think Paul is talking about here? IMO these were the type of rulers Paul was taking about in Romans 13.
Acts 20:17
And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
Now read down to verse 28 of the same chapter and see how Paul describes them,
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
An overseer does have a postion of authority and is indeed a power ordained by God.
Now concerning Paul practicing the old-law of sacrifice: Paul did indeed keep the purifying laws, but the questoin is why did he do this when he knew and even proclaimed himself that the old-law of sacrafices were done away with?
Acts 21:26
Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
Paul said he would be all things to all people in order to possibly reach them for Jesus Christ. If it meant obeying laws that were no longer in effect, so be it.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
RickyJ posted on 2006-07-04 12:29:55 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#79. To: All (#78)
An overseer does have a postion of authority and is indeed a power ordained by God.

Corection to the above:
An overseer does have a postion of authority and the elders talked about here are indeed a power ordained by God.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
RickyJ posted on 2006-07-04 12:35:49 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#80. To: IndieTX (#31)
Thanks Indie...hope you had a great 4th.

Freedomsnotfree posted on 2006-07-04 14:53:36 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#81. To: noone222, BTP Holdings, Red Jones, All (#58)
Christ himself stated that he didn't come to change the law, but to fulfill or establish it. He even went so far as to say that not a jot or tittle of the law would pass before heaven and earth passed away.
[Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. ]

I was two hours into replying to your post, when I went to a google cache, and THEN to the original URL, which proceeded to crash my little computer. I tried it again, to see if it was just because I had too much stuff on it. Nope, it did it again. I lost everything. I have some things to do, but God Willing, I will be back to answer your post, point by point. I am a little slow, so in the meantime, would you please clarify for me, that you believe only the "white ten tribes of Israel" are true Israel, and that peoples of other nations, tribes, and tongues, like the Ethiopian are not? Because if this is what you believe, everything in me recoils at the thought. If this is the God you worship, it is no wonder so many people are turned off. If this is not the case, please forgive me, and I will not spend any more time on that particular issue.
The article that crashed my computer: I'd say it doesn't fit into someone's agenda, so I'd recommend everyone make a copy and spread it far and wide, particularly in Tim LaHaye territory. I agree with this, except that I believe God IS building His kingdom on earth [I will explain if anyone wants me to. One thought: Jesus said, My kingdom is not NOW of this world.]:
Global Elite Promoting ‘End Times’ Myth

Television gurus preaching a fraudulent “end times” and “last days” theory popularized in the 19th century are helping lay the groundwork for world government by corralling good Christians into supporting a doctrine that has no Biblical basis.
True Christian fundamentalism, based on the teachings of the Bible takes the Bible at its word and accepts that Christ accomplished all that he intended to do while on Earth and that His kingdom is here and is within you. That’s the powerful thesis put forth by John Anderson, producer of the video The Last Days. On Dec. 16, Anderson made a return appearance on Radio Free America (RFA), the weekly call-in talk forum sponsored by American Free Press with host Tom Valentine. (A transcript of Anderson’s first appearance on RFA was published in AFP’s issue No. 19.)
What follows is an edited transcript of the interview. Comments by Valentine are in boldface. Anderson’s responses are in regular text.

The person responsible for popularizing this clap-trap that the “end times” and “last days” are coming was a shady character named Cyrus I. Scofield.
That’s true, but Scofield was not the originator. Scofield got these false teachings from John Darby, who got it from Edward Irving and Margaret McDonald, a 14-year-old girl who had a dream and began writing letters to Irving describing what she thought was going to happen.
Darby was one of the Plymouth Brethren and when Scofield got hold of what Darby and others were teaching, he produced the Scofield Bible in 1909 and there have been many revisions of it since then. Although they never say “who” revised Scofield’s work.
Researchers have said that it was a powerful New York attorney, Samuel Untermyer, who was instrumental in arranging for the Oxford Press, which was controlled by the Rothschild banking family, patrons of the Zionist movement, to publish the Scofield “bible.”
Students of history recall that Untermyer, who was a major player in the Zionist movement, was the one who blackmailed President Woodrow Wilson with the love letters that Wilson sent to his mistress, a certain Mrs. Peck. The history of this sordid affair was described in The Barnes Review* in its March/April 2000 issue. In its January/ February 2001 issue, The Barnes Review described Untermyer’s famous “holy war” speech that helped launch World War II.
So many people today believe that the words of Scofield are the words of the scripture. I tell people that if you’ve got a Scofield “bible,” then throw it away.
Most people who call themselves Christians do not study and read God’s word for themselves or they allow their thinking to be influenced what they have been told based on the teachings of Scofield.
If you look at the Tim LaHaye series, Left Behind, he and his associate have each made some $10 million on this, playing on the fear and unknowing faith of the Christian public. Doom and gloom sells, but truth does not.
Thanks to the influence of Scofield and his sponsors, Untermyer and the Rothschild family, many Christians today believe that God promised a certain tract of land in the Middle East to the people we know today as Israelis.
You are referring to the promise that God made to Abraham. God keeps his word and he certainly did. In Joshua 21, verses 43-45, it says that the Lord God gave unto Israel all the land. So God did fulfill the promise that he made to Abraham.
But was the promise of this land to those known as the Hebrews a promise that this would be their land forever?
No, it was not. First of all, the old covenant between God and the Hebrews was conditional. Although God kept his word, there was nothing in that promise that it would be that way forever. The old covenant was conditional.
The key word is “if.” That is, if the Hebrews kept their part in their covenant with God. But all throughout scripture the prophets continue to predict that the Hebrews will break that covenant by disobeying God and that, eventually, they will lose it all.
And eventually, they did lose it all. This is what is important: it was never solely an ethnic issue as to who “Israel” was. The issue always had to do with those who had faith and believed in God.
For example, the United States is often referred to as a “Christian nation.” That does not mean that everyone in the United States is a Christian. But those who follow Christ by faith and by faith alone are of that spiritual seed.
In Numbers 9:14, if strangers came in and kept the ordinances and the males were circumcised, they were accepted as a part of Israel. So it was not that this exclusive, nationalistic issue that many people try to hang onto. Spiritual Israel was always the issue.
God said that Israel as a racial entity was going to be the one that the prophecies were made to and the messiah was going to come through. God divorced Israel but he did not divorce Judah, because the messiah had to come through Judah, as the prophecy was made in Genesis 49:10.
Remember the parable that Jesus used about wineskin? He said you did not put new wine into an old wineskin. The issue was that the new covenant was not going to be accepted by old covenant Israel.
That’s the key thing: people with power in this world refused to accept God’s prophecy and what He had brought about. You have people who call themselves “Christians” who believe that this “Israel” of today is still the Promised Land and that God’s promise is going on in perpetuity and that God has a hand in this modern-day political mess in the Middle East and that we have an “end times” coming. They suggest that Christ effectively failed and did not fulfill God’s plan.
That is exactly what dispensational theology teaches: The Jews rejected the kingdom and, as a result, it was put on hold. That’s utter nonsense. When they came to Christ and tried to make him king after He had fed the 5,000, he slipped away from them. He had not come to set up a physical kingdom. That was never His intent. It was always a spiritual kingdom with a spiritual people.
To expect Christ to return and rule over a literal kingdom is to believe that everything Christ did when he was here on Earth was a failure. How could the Son of God be a failure?
Correct. The people who are saying that Christ failed and has to return are suggesting that God was caught off guard and He had to come up with a “Plan B.” That’s absurd. Yet we still have many evangelical Christians believing this nonsense, thanks to Scofield.
The historical and Biblical truths about the destruction of Jerusalem are not something that is widely taught to Christians in America today. Christians are not taught that this was the fulfillment of God’s promise and was literally the hand of God Himself destroying the old order completely and totally.
Every Jew knew that the “Heaven and the Earth” was the temple. That’s what Jesus meant when He said that “Heaven and Earth” would pass but that His word would not pass. That is the prophecy of Isaiah 65: the New Jerusalem that came out of Heaven, the new “Heaven and Earth” that John spoke about in Revelation 21 when he said he saw a new Heaven and Earth and no more sea. What John was saying was that there was no more separation, no more exclusivity. Now God’s kingdom was open to all.
The destruction of Jerusalem and the physical destruction of the old temple by the Roman armies was a signal that God’s kingdom was now in place. Christ predicted in Matthew 24 what would happen, and the truth is that what happened in Jerusalem in the times of Titus—the Roman who destroyed Jerusalem—you cannot find anything else in history to match it for horrible events.
Christ said that the whole system that the Pharisees stood for was going to be destroyed. His disciples came to him on the Mount of Olives and asked, “When shall these things be?” Every one of them knew that there was going to be a new Heaven and Earth, a new age, a new covenant. Christ described to them all that would happen before it would transpire.
Today people say that we are living in “the last days” and the world is coming to an end, but in Luke 21 (which is parallel to Matthew 24 and Mark 13), Christ said, “Take heed that you be not deceived for many shall come in my name, saying, ‘I am Christ. The end draweth near.” He said you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars and then said that there would be wrath upon “this people.” That’s the key: he’s referring to the flesh-and-blood individuals he was talking to at that time. The issue in Luke 21 is that he said that only the apostles themselves would be able to say when the end had come. That means that anyone after them would be a false prophet if they were predicting the end times had come to Earth.
The prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem was made to those people in that land, not to the whole world and that is another key to understanding all of this.
The people of Jerusalem practically ate each other. It was a horrendous end time in the most classic sense.
Josephus, the historian, even said that if Titus, the Roman, had not lifted his finger, the Jews of the time would have probably destroyed themselves from within. More than a million were killed and, at the end, only 100,000 were left. They went into captivity.
There is a well-known Christian columnist, Cal Thomas, who seems to believe that everything Israeli leader Ariel Sharon does is directed by God Himself.
That is the sentiment today: that everything Israel does is because it is ordained by God.
The original “Israel” was dissolved by God, and if you look at the world today from a correct Biblical sense, based upon what we have in the Bible, there is no such thing as a “Jew.”
The Jewish Encyclopedia itself says there is no such thing as a Jewish race. There is only a Jewish religion now and that is what came out of Babylon and had nothing to do with the Bible and its times.
Is today’s Judaism the religion of the tribe of Judah?
Predominantly today, yes. Under the years of Babylonian captivity they came up with the synagogue-type of Judaism that is being practiced today. When you start looking at the Jewish Talmud, you find things to tally contrary to God’s word, yet there are some today who say that “Christianity came out of Judaism,” and that is absurd. We are not a Judeo-Christian country. The United States started out as a Godly, Christian country. Not all of those who founded this country were Christian but at least the ideas of the Bible were incorporated into our nation by many of the Founding Fathers.
God had his prophets on the Earth and when Christ fulfilled the promise, the temple was gone and the old way of doing things was wiped out.
It was fulfilled. It’s amazing to me that there are those who don’t believe it. We say “trust in Jesus” and “take him at His word,” but many don’t.
Every single person has Jesus right there if he so chooses. It has nothing to do with race or sex or height or anything. God’s kingdom is within us.
It is open to any and all who believe in the finished work of Jesus Christ. H

* For information on ordering issues of The Barnes Review, call (877) 773-9077, email barnesrev@hotmail.com or write P.O. Box 15877, Washington, D.C. 20003.
URL SHOULD be: http://www.americanfreepress.net/RFA_Articles/Global_Elite_Promoting__En d_Ti/glo bal_elite_promoting__end_ti.html

noone222, after reading this, do you still want me to continue? I had about 28 Blueletterbible windows open to refute what you said, on one point alone. I'll be happy to pull them up again, if need be. I'm not trying to be cranky, but God is no racist, and I won't let him be construed as such.
I noticed http://historicist.com has/had this article. I did not check to see if it is still up.
BTP, is there something up with americanfreepress?

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-04 15:00:39 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#82. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#81)
BTP, is there something up with americanfreepress?

Nope. That is one of the subjects they have covered.
"To be nobody-but-yourself - in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else - means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can ever fight; and never stop fighting." E.E. Cummings
BTP Holdings posted on 2006-07-04 16:53:42 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#83. To: noone222 (#58)
They promote inter-racial marriages which God forbid

I don't think God ever forbade this. Moses himself had a wife of a different race.

Those that say God loves everybody are full of shit. It just ain't so.

God says he loves everybody.

The Scripture that made me really think about finding the truth was one where Christ says at the Judgment there will be "many" that will say "but lord we healed the sick and cast out demons in your name" ... to which he will reply "DEPART FROM ME FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU" ... explain that !

That's easy to explain, without love nothing you do means anything. If you don't truly love God, then it matters not what you do. God knows people's hearts, without love, true love of God, there is no salvation.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
RickyJ posted on 2006-07-04 16:57:33 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#84. To: RickyJ (#83)
They promote inter-racial marriages which God forbid
I don't think God ever forbade this. Moses himself had a wife of a different race.

I'm afraid he did!! Deuteronomy 7:1When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: 3Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
And:Ezra 10:10 And Ezra the priest stood up, and said unto them, Ye have transgressed, and have taken strange wives, to increase the trespass of Israel.
God says he loves everybody.
Agian, not true!! Malachi 1:1The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. 2I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 4Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.
That's easy to explain, without love nothing you do means anything.
So, since He said there would be MANY that He would tell to "Depart from me ye that work iniquity; for I never knew you" that means that there are many that are without love. I agree
I am not racist, purist, or any other thing which anyone may possibly construe out of my posts on this thread (which BTW has been an extremely good, thought provoking one!). BUT, the bottom line is (as pointed out by noone222) children of the Destroyer "The Wicked One" are walking among us!! And I personally think Bush - the whole line of them - and his cronies are among those children......
"This country has come to feel the same when congress is in session as when the baby gets hold of a hammer." Will Rogers..... "None can love freedom heartily but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." John Milton.....
innieway posted on 2006-07-04 17:37:03 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#85. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#81)
God is no racist, and I won't let him be construed as such.

You have given some good responses to my posts and others on this thread. I'm taking what you have said and giving it more critical thought. BUT, I did notice that a large percentage of what you were quoting was from the writings of Paul. Again, I'm not totally convinced of the virtue of Paul. His writings seem to contradict the teachings of the entire rest of Scripture so often. I have often wondered if a large portion of his stuff was written from inspiration of Satan just to throw people off.... After all, it IS the goal of the Destroyer to take as many down with him as possible.......
Anyhow, as to the text that I chose to quote from you, isn't that being just a tad pretentious (I hope I'm using the right word here) to make ANY claim as to what the Creator is/isn't should/should not be/do? It's kinda like those that say "kill em all and let God sort em out". What qualifies ANY of us to see fit to give God a job to do????
"This country has come to feel the same when congress is in session as when the baby gets hold of a hammer." Will Rogers..... "None can love freedom heartily but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." John Milton.....
innieway posted on 2006-07-04 17:53:05 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#86. To: ALL (#0)
To all who may be more interested in reading more on the subject of Israel, and Jews - and I do mean a HUGE library of information try this link:
http://www.israelect.com/reference/Willie-Martin/was_index.html
At the top of this page is the whole Willie Martin archive. He has devoted more time to the subject than most of us could possibly conceive of doing
"This country has come to feel the same when congress is in session as when the baby gets hold of a hammer." Will Rogers..... "None can love freedom heartily but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." John Milton.....
innieway posted on 2006-07-04 17:57:01 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#87. To: BTP Holdings (#82)
No. I meant, when I linked to their URL, some strange site started to come up, and it shut me down. Twice. When I get a chance, I'll try their home page. My fear is someone may be messing with them, like they did with We Hold These Truths.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-04 18:32:44 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#88. To: innieway (#86)
At the top of this page is the whole Willie Martin archive.

Couldn't have said it better myself !
Matthew 7:6
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds (smites) you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams ... and I concur !
noone222 posted on 2006-07-04 18:35:19 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#89. To: Red Jones (#65)
I am of the belief as I've said here many times that our country will be destroyed more or less completely, and that this is god's plan.

I'm afraid you're right Red. And not just our country either. And there is a very good reason for this. There simply isn't room for everyone here after the resurrection. You see, Heaven is right here on Earth. I know, that sounds kooky, but as you mentioned in the post I'm responding to that the Messiah is coming back HERE to establish His Kingdom.....
Here is a link to George Gordon... http://www.georgegordon.com/Radio_Archives.htm If you've never heard of him, do yourself a favor (and everyone else too) and give him a listen. He has a thing called the Law Hour, and all his shows are archived here. For the purposes of the topic on this thread, scroll down to August 2005 and listen to the shows titled "Scriptural View On Christianity" and "Is Heaven the Reward of the Saved?" A total of 7 hours of some of the most informative listening you'll find... I heard Alex Jones say once that the more he listens to Gordon, the more he finds himself in agreement with what he has to say.
Gordon also has MANY MANY topics that are worth listening to. Things about Social Security, Tax Protest, Bird Flu, The Lost Tribes of Israel, Identity Theft, the list goes on and on.....
Like you said, none of us has all the answers, BUT I feel there is no doubt that you are on the right track, and I think you'll enjoy Gordon's perspective. He puts up an argument that is almost impossible to contradict...
And check out the Willie Martin files I posted on this thread a bit ago. TONS AND TONS of exhausting research there that lays out a great deal of info on the topic of this thread.
"This country has come to feel the same when congress is in session as when the baby gets hold of a hammer." Will Rogers..... "None can love freedom heartily but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." John Milton.....
innieway posted on 2006-07-04 18:45:35 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#90. To: All (#89)
Here is a link to George Gordon

http://www.georgegordon.com/Radio_Archives.htm
"This country has come to feel the same when congress is in session as when the baby gets hold of a hammer." Will Rogers..... "None can love freedom heartily but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." John Milton.....
innieway posted on 2006-07-04 18:46:26 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#91. To: innieway (#89)
Thanks, I bookmarked that George Gordon site and am downloading some of those files. but unfortunately I can't listen to them until I get the speakers repaired. and that might be a month or so.

Red Jones posted on 2006-07-04 19:24:03 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#92. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#87)
My fear is someone may be messing with them, like they did with We Hold These Truths.

Always a possibility, but they have a good webmaster and server. I tried that URL and no luck. I got the dreaded 404 error.
"To be nobody-but-yourself - in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else - means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can ever fight; and never stop fighting." E.E. Cummings
BTP Holdings posted on 2006-07-04 19:42:53 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#93. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#81)
(1). Every Jew knew that the “Heaven and the Earth” was the temple. That’s what Jesus meant when He said that “Heaven and Earth” would pass but that His word would not pass.

(1). This conclusion is ridiculous, and even dangerous. If Jesus wanted to say that the Temple would pass before his law passed ... that's what he would have said. To manufacture such an interpretation leaves all Scripture subject to conjecture. God cannot lie, but whomever determined this "loose interpretation" has the ability. The Scriptures are not given to "private" interpretation. Let God be true and all men liars (including Paul).
As far as whether or not I believe the Ten Lost Tribes of Jacob/Israel were "all" white; I don't think it possible to determine the exact genetic make-up of all ten of the so-called lost tribes. However, some of them being white is most probable. Jacob (whose name was changed to Israel) had children by four women, two of which bore 5 sons that were most likely white.
Reuben, Levi, Simeon, Judah and Joseph were probably white. The other sons were born of two sisters that were handmaidens, of which their ethnicity is unknown. It should be noted however that Jacob's mother had recommended that he marry his cousins, the daughters of Laban (her own brother) so as not to marry outside their own race. It's possible that the handmaidens were white as well, but I don't have enough real evidence to support that as being fact.
Both Sarah, Abraham's wife, and Rebecca, Isaac's wife (Jacob's mom) are described as "fair" complexioned. The name Laban, (who was Rebecca's brother, Jacob's uncle and the father of two of Jacob's wives, means "whited", or "to be white". King David of Israel, descended from Jacob through Judah is said to be "ruddy complected". There are many references in the Scriptures to these things, but the politically correct churches don't teach it.
Many people make statements like "I believe this" or "I believe that" and the truth doesn't give a tinkers damn what people choose to believe. To be frank, I didn't want to believe these truths either when they were related to me. I thought, like everyone else does, that these people calling themselves Jews were the chosen people of promise. That's what everyone had told me my whole life and I was angered by the person that tried to tell me these things.
I determined to prove him wrong by doing the research necessary to refute what he was saying. I did the research and had to apologize for my ignorance, he was right. The more I searched, the more evidence I found to support the very subject I was trying to disprove.
As a matter of fact, doing the research to prove my own political correctness, and that I was not a bigot or white racist, actually opened the Scriptures to me for the first time, enabling me to understand many things that were formerly obscurities that made me ask the question, "what do these Scriptures have to do with me" ? Like so much else that we have been lied to about, this was just another one of those things.
Then, after realizing that whites were probably part of the lost tribes of Israel, I thought, so what. I haven't done anything remarkable, so what's the point. And I still have questions, lots of them. But none of them have to do with who the Ten Tribes are in reality, but more importantly "WHO THEY ARE NOT".
And they definitely ARE NOT WHO WE HAVE BEEN TOLD THEY ARE. And this international lie has put us on the path to a nuclear disaster beyond comprehension. What's worse, is that the lie is promoted by people that should read and understand the Scriptures, but instead "ignorantly" call people like me a hater or a bigot based on their emotions alone and not on what the Bible actually states as fact.
I'm stubborn so I understand it when I see it in others. That's why I won't shut up either. I'm so sickened by the deeds of these people that go unchallenged because they have conned the world into believing a huge lie. Maybe like innieway said, an Identity theft amounting to "the crime of the century".
Lastly, let me close with this challenge. Forget what the paid pulpit prostitutes have ever told you. They like your history teachers are a bunch of dupes or liars. Find out what "all" of the promises made to Abraham were, and determine who has actually fulfilled them. The Promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled by a people, but none have been accomplished by the so-called Jews. Again, test the promises of God to Abraham to see who has fulfilled them and forget the double talking preachers that say shit like when Jesus said Heaven and Earth he really meant the Temple ... what nonsense.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds (smites) you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams ... and I concur !
noone222 posted on 2006-07-04 20:15:43 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#94. To: innieway, Red Jones (#86)
This is long. If you sense my passion, it is not against you. It is against this heresy that has waylaid you, and so many others. It has to be laid to rest if there is ever going to be any peace in the world. John Coleman, in his book COMMITTEE OF 300, apparently called the British Empire the scourge of the earth. We are STILL enslaved to them, or maybe more accurately to the crown which is THE CITY OF LONDON [ THE UNITED STATES IS STILL A BRITISH COLONY EXTORTING TAXES FOR THE CROWN! Welcome! A DOCUMENTARY REVIEW OF CHARTERS AND TREATIES August 17, www.apfn.org/APFN/bcolony.htm ]

I was going to ask someone to tell me what doctrine this was that you all were preaching. It sounded like British-Israelism, and skimming through this page:
http://www.isr aelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/ANSWER.htm
I found confirmation:
Throne In Israel
"...It has been established beyond question of successful refutation that the Anglo-Saxon-Germanic-Scandinavian-Celtic peoples are the modern descendants of the northern ten-tribed Kingdom of Israel and, therefore, they constitute the House of Israel in the world today. Furthermore, it has also been definitely established that **** the throne in Great Britain is the Throne of David which was established over the House of Israel in the Isles.

The throne in Great Britain is presided over by heathens and Druids and Freemasons! Do you buy into all that DaVinci Code blasphemy as well, because this is what this is all about. The monarchy think they have some divine right of kings to rule the world because of some phony claim to the lineage of David. [See Here is the first bit of hogwash I brought up to hopefully show the ludicrous nature of this:

http://www.archdruid.co.uk/

"...The coming of Joseph of Aramathea and the boy Jesus to Glastonbury at the dawn of the Christian era is regarded as fact locally, along with the memory that the Druids of the time gave Joseph twelve hides of land on which to build the first Christian Church in the world after the crucifixion, long before Romanised Christianity!
500 years later again, at a time when the original message of the Celtic Druid/Christian infusion was being lost, Arthur and the Maenarch Merlin strove to preserve the ancient wisdom against the coming of the Dark Ages. 500 years later again, the Celtic Scholar Dunstan, often referred to as the Christian Merlin, unified the Kingdom, wrote the coronation service still in use to this day, and re-established much of the old Druidic lore in Christian guise. 500 years later Queen Elizabeth 1st astrologer, Dr. John Dee, and fellow confident, Edward Kelly, rediscovered the outlines of the Glastonbury Zodiac, claimed to have obtained the philosopher's stone, and substantiated the claim of Elizabeth 1st to be Defender of the Faith in Britain on the grounds that Glastonbury received the Christian message over a hundred years before Rome!
500 Years later in our present era, Honorary Archdruid and dear friend of the Order, the antiquary and visionary writer John Michell, popularised and extended research into Ley Lines and Stone Circles, such that the Ley Lines of Britain are now a common household word. Much of his early work, for instance The View Over Atlantis, was written in Glastonbury, and it was with his encouragement and enthusiasm for the old ways that led to the Order as it is today, being formed by the late Jacqueline Memory Patterson and Elder Archdruid Rollo Maughfling. Traditionally, Glastonbury is the seat of the Archdruid of Britain, and Stonehenge is Britain's High Place of Assembly.
The Glastonbury Order of Druids consists of three rays.
The magical inner order - Merlin's call.
The Outer Order - Queen's call
Grail Knights, (who are Healers, Therapists and rest and re- couperation specialists).
The Warband - King's call
Knights of the Sword. (who are Eco-warriors: Political-Activists and road protestors)....."

WHERE in the Bible do you find ANY of this? The Bible admonishes against WIZARDRY, which is what this is.
This nonsense above goes along with this article:
BRITISH FREEMASONRY COVETS ISRAEL:
[EXCERPT]:
"....During much of his youth, Jesus lived in Britain with his uncle Joseph of Armithea, who ran a lucrative tin trading business between Cornwall and Phoenicia. While in Cornwall, Jesus learned the secrets of the Druids, a Celtic religion which was closely allied with the Essenes. Both shared a belief in fraternal love and a strict set of fatal punishments for those who betrayed the mysteries of their faiths. And both demanded a rigorous three stage initiation process for those wishing to be privy to those mysteries.
Jesus was in Rome at the time of his brother's crucifixion. He and his family and followers escaped the city in the wake of the crackdown on Zealots following Judas Thomas's revolt. Most went to Marseilles and from there spread throughout Gaul and Britain. Jesus and his wife fled to Britain.
Yes, wife. According to British Freemasonry, he had four of them. His first, a Nabatean named Cypros produced five children, the most famous being Caradoc, a future king who would fight Rome with savage success.
But it was the second, Mary Magdelene who was even more significant. Her father was an early British Celtic king and she a Celtic princess. Their children and all their descendants produced the British royal lineage. With this marriage, Jesus became a Celtic royal and he was given a suitable new royal name, Jesus Cunobeline.
Shortly after his arrival in Britain, Jesus Cunobeline and his family were given royal jurisdiction over a huge tract of land in southern Wales. It is for this reason that the Prince Of Wales is considered a direct anscestor of the first king of modern Wales, Jesus Cunobeline, with privileges that extend to all of Judaism and Israel.
Just before Emperor Claudius attacked Britain, Jesus abdicated his crown to his son Caradoc, who defeated the Romans at every turn. But through trickery, he and his father, Jesus Cunobeline were captured and shipped in shackles to Rome. Caradoc appealed to the Roman Senate for clemency and was granted it on condition that Britain never fought Rome on its soil again. He accepted the proviso and he and his entourage were given a palace of their own. Jesus lived there for seven years.
Then he sailed to Egypt to learn the secrets of the Egyptian mystery schools. He was an honored student and soaked in the secret handshakes, cryptic messages and graduated revelations. The Christianity of Jesus became Freemasonry. [NOTE: Freemasonry = Noachide, which claims that Jesus is a false prophet who is boiling in hell in excrement.]
Jesus wanted to share his new complete Essene/Druidic/Essene religion and that proved his undoing. He was stoned to death in London, aged 63, for betraying his vows and revealing the secrets of the mystery schools....."
If you want to read the rest: http://www.rense.com/general28/br it.htm
Further evidence that the Throne of England is NOT of the Christian faith:

"Considering that John Stott is a leader of the Anglican Church, the following news report of an Anglican-Druid dialogue is revealing:

“SENIOR Church of England clergy are to join Druids and pagans at a controversial conference... The conference, Spirit of the Land 2000, is described as ‘a Christian-Druid dialogue and reconciliation meeting for the new Millennium’. It is being held against a background of growing interest in New Age religion and white magic. Organisers of the event include Emma Restall Orr, the joint chief of the British Druid Order, the Rev Marcus Small, a vicar in Hertfordshire, and the Dean of Guildford, the Very Rev Alexander Wedderspoon...a number of clergy already participated in joint Christian and pagan services, but there was still too much ignorance and hostility. Mark Graham, of the Pagan Federation, which represents Druidry, wicca and sharmanism, said: ‘Some pagans believe in magic, just like some Christians believe in the power of prayer and miracles.’ ‘We celebrate our connectedness to nature and **** I will sometimes dance naked around a fire. They aren't doing much dancing around a fire naked at matins or evensong but perhaps they should. Perhaps they will like it.’ ...The day-long conference at Amesbury, Wiltshire, in June, will be chaired by Rosemary Hartill, the former BBC religious affairs correspondent. Speakers include Martin Palmer, a former adviser to Prince Philip, and Ronald Hutton, a professor of history at Bristol University. The event will end with a Christian service and a Druid ceremony in which a green-robed priestess will make offerings of bread and mead...” [Source: “Alarm Over Church Talks With Druids,” Jonathan Petre, Sunday, May 21, 2000; Issue 1822, Electronic Telegraph]

As previously mentioned, John Stott was honorary chaplain to the Queen of England for 32 years. In their book, The Trojan Horse: How the New Age Infiltrates the Church, Brenda Scott and Samantha Smith associate both the Order of Freemasons and the British Royal Family with the Druid cult:

"Druid traditions were also preserved with Freemasonry, which is thought to have evolved from the Druids or at least alongside of them. This connection is addressed in Gould's History of Freemasonry. (James Bonwick, Irish Druids and Old Irish Religions, Salem N.H.: Ayer Co., 1984, p. 71) The three part structure of the masons is identical to the three offices of druidic priesthood: Ovates, Bards, and Druids. Also, ‘the secret teachings embodied therein are practically the same as the mysteries concealed under the allegories of Blue Lodge masonry.’ (Manly P. Hall, An Encyclopedic Outline of Masonic, Hermetic, Qabbalist and Rosicrucian Symbolic Philosophy, Los Angeles: The Philosophical Research Soc., 1977, XXIII).
"Political and religious suppression forced the Druids to go underground. Many thought that the religion had disappeared, but it survived, handed down within families and villages to resurface again in the early eighteenth century. There are three main druidic colleges. . .In fact, druidism has become so accepted socially that Queen Elizabeth II and the Prince of Wales both accepted posts as honorary Druids in the Wales Gorsedd. (ff. “The Gnosis Interview,” Sophie Moore)… By 1988, there were estimated to be over one million adepts (spiritual masters) and the movement is growing." [The Trojan Horse, Huntington House Pub., 1993, pp. 59,60)

Editor’s Note: A Chronology of Major Movements: Oxford University documents the founding of Oxford University by the Ancient Order of Druids. Oxford University was also the origin of the Oxford Movement which launched the Counter- Reformation in England. Also at Oxford University, the elite of the English- speaking countries are trained to work toward the federation, expansion and consolidation of the British Empire with funding from the Cecil Rhodes Trust....."
SPIRITUAL COUNTERFEITS PROJECT 1
http://watch.pair.com/cult- scp1.html
Prince Charles now claims to be NOT the defender of the Christian faith, but the defender of FAITHS:

Christian News, Updated Daily - Christian Today > Prince Claims to ...Prince Claims to be Defender of All Faiths, Not "The" Faith http://www.christiantod ay.com/news/church/prince. claims.to.be.defender.of.all.faiths.not.the.faith/1178.htm

Prince Charles is said to be behind the UN program of sustainable development, which promises to divest folks of their private property and ENSLAVE THEM:
"....There were policy papers put forth which they hoped would be used as the framework for a Treaty on International Sustainable Development Law. Their actions reaffirmed Chapter 39 of Agenda 21 which recognizes the need to continue progressive development and codification of international law related to sustainable development. It should be noted that these laws will be incorporated into every local and national level of law worldwide.
For those of us with Christian values, this is the anti-thesis of what we believe for sustainable development is pagan. It perverts Genesis 1, 2, and 3 in that it puts the earth as being dominant over man and not man as having dominance over the earth-hence, you and I have no value since we have been demoted to the same value as an animal or plant. So what do you think is the end result of international sustainable development law? Enslavement.
Now who were THE players behind the birthing of sustainable development? To my surprise, it was Prince Charles. Not happy with the Christian faith, Charles turned to "para- psychology" which some define as "dabbling in the occult." He was greatly influenced by the South African-born writer, explorer, and mystic Laurens van der Post who was a friend of his grandmother, the Queen Mother. The prince was also influenced by James Lovelock, a British scientist who formulated the "Gaia hypothesis, which today is known as the worship of the earth, a belief based on the Greek goddess Gaia, the Earth Mother. Charles concurs with the perversion of Genesis 1, 2, and 3....."
SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT, AGENDA 21 AND PRINCE CHARLES by Joan Veon
http://www.newswithviews.com /Veon/joan19.htm

See also PRINCE CHARLES, THE SUSTAINABLE PRINCE by Joan Veon
"PRINCE CHARLES THE SUSTAINABLE PRINCE
What this means is that Prince Charles, as heir to the British throne, has a bigger role to play in world affairs than what people could imagine. Joan Veon knows that he is a "Renaissance man: and a man with a mission. As a result of his behind-the-scenes role at the United Nations, Prince Charles is responsible for changing the order of life from the biblical perspective of man having dominance over the earth to one in which the earth has dominance over man. One of the major environmental philosophies which runs tantamount to this is that of "sustainable development." Because of his global orchestrations, Veon has dubbed Charles "the sustainable prince."...."
http://www.newswithv iews.com/HNB/Hot_New_Books12.htm

Here is the genealogy they claim. Note the BLASPHEMOUS FECUNDATING CROSS AND CROWN at Jesus Christ's name. [search FECUNDATING CROSS AND CROWN TIM LAHAYE]
THE ROYAL HOUSE OF BRITAIN
http://www.asis.com/~stag/royalty. html
PLEASE NOTE THAT BUSH, CHENEY, ET AL, IN FACT MOST OF OUR PRESIDENTS ARE RELATED TO THESE IMPOSTERS:
US "ROYAL" PRESIDENTS:
http://www.asis.com/~stag/uspres.ht ml
http://www.familyfo rest.com/Kerry_Bush_Ancestors.html
http://www.familyfore st.com/Kerry_Bush_Cousins.html
After seeing the name of all these kings and rulers of the earth, please ponder Psalm 2:

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying],

Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.....

http://www.bluelette rbible.org/kjv/Psa/Psa002.html#1
Then remember what Cornwallis said to George Washington:

"...Six months before Senator Joseph McCarthy's mouth was closed forever, he presented an article titled George Washington's Surrender, in which he quoted British General Cornwallis. The full article can be found in The Union Jack - Epilogue:
"Jonathan Williams recorded in his LEGIONS OF SATAN, 1781, that Cornwallis revealed to Washington that, "A holy war will now begin on America, and when it is ended America will be supposedly the citadel of freedom, but her millions will unknowingly be loyal subjects to the Crown."
"Cornwallis went on to explain what would seem to be a self contradiction
"Your churches will be used to teach the Jew's religion and in less than two hundred years the whole nation will be working for divine world government. That government that they believe to be divine will be the British Empire. All religions will be permeated with Judaism without even being noticed by the masses, and they will all be under the invisible all-seeing eye of the Grand Architect of Freemasonry." ...."
http://ww w.sweetliberty.org/perspective/jewishpersecution19.htm
the Anglo-Saxon-Germanic-Scandinavian-Celtic peoples are the modern descendants of the northern ten-tribed Kingdom of Israel and, therefore, they constitute the House of Israel in the world today.
It is more likely that they are of the pagan tribe of Dan, who don't want to come out of the dark into the light.
THE LOST TRIBE OF DAN
http://watch.pair.com/dan.html
I hope I've shown you that this Lost Tribes theory is false, it's antiChrist, and it's all part of the New World Order plot.

Isa 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I [am] a dry tree. +++ http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Isa/56/3.html [The Ethiopian was a eunuch.]

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Isa 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather [others] to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Isa/56/8.html

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-04 20:44:35 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#95. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#94)
the throne in Great Britain is the Throne of David which was established over the House of Israel in the Isles.

King Edward the 1st (Longshanks) was a direct descendant of the Tribe of Judah through one of the twins named Zara(h). I've done the geneological research my self, using an internet geneological search program.
Why don't you do it ?
You do know that "B'nai Brith" means "sons of the covenant" in Hebrew don't you.
"Brit-ish" means "Covenant man" and "Brit ain" means "covenant land" in Hebrew.
The Ten Northern Tribes of Israel went somewhere, they didn't evaporate.
Read the Book of Hosea, it describes the lost tribes and the fact that after a set time they will recover their identity or memory of it.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds (smites) you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams ... and I concur !
noone222 posted on 2006-07-04 21:10:23 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#96. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#94)
By the way, did you not know that God promised King David that he would never lack a descendant sitting on the throne over his people ?
God can't lie, otherwise He ain't God !
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds (smites) you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams ... and I concur !
noone222 posted on 2006-07-04 21:13:08 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#97. To: noone222, Red Jones (#93)

Lastly, let me close with this challenge. Forget what the paid pulpit prostitutes have ever told you. They like your history teachers are a bunch of dupes or liars.

It seems you base your scriptures on someone named Willie Martin.
Find out what "all" of the promises made to Abraham were, and determine who has actually fulfilled them.
Let's start with this one:

Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land [that is] not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
[Ezekiel 34:11-13/John 10; First Virginia Charter 1606; Cross at Cape Henry 1607, THE US IS STILL A BRITISH COLONY, EXTRACTING TAXES FOR THE CROWN]

Gen 15:14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

Mic 4:1 — But in the last days it shall come to pass, [that] the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

++++ http://www.blueletterbi ble.org/tsk_b/Mic/4/1.html

Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Mic 4:4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make [them] afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken [it].

Mic 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

Mic 4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

Mic 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant [Jews], and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Mic 4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Mic 4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? [is there] no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.

Mic 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

Mic 4:11 Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.
[sound familiar?]
Mic 4:12 But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.

Mic 4:13 Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.

http://www.bluelette rbible.org/kjv/Mic/Mic004.html#1
The Promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled by a people, but none have been accomplished by the so-called Jews.
I think you'd be hard-pressed to find where I ever said they were.

Again, test the promises of God to Abraham to see who has fulfilled them and forget the double talking preachers that say shit like when Jesus said Heaven and Earth he really meant the Temple ... what nonsense.
Well, OK, let's see what the Bible actually says about Heaven and Earth:
Jesus as God, said:
Isa 45:18 — For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens;God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.
http://www.blueletter bible.org/tsk_b/Isa/45/18.html

As for the Lost Tribes, Anglo-Saxon, etc., God says He will draw all nations and tongues:

Isa 66:18 For I [know] their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

Isa 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, [to] Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, [to] Tubal, and Javan, [to] the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren [for] an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests [and] for Levites, saith the LORD.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed [If you can quote Willie Martin, I can quote Paul: Gal. 3:16-29] and your name remain. [This is the true Israel]

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa066.html#22
If there is a LITERAL New Heaven and Earth, why are there dead carcasses lying around?

Here is the "New Heaven" and the "New Earth". It comes when the TARES are taken out of it:

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat013.html#40
Sounds to me like THIS LITERAL HEAVEN AND EARTH IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE. Therefore, it seems Jesus must have been talking about ANOTHER 'Heaven and Earth'.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former [Old Covenant, Old Temple, Old City] shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create [NEW] Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in [NEW] Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit [them]; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree [are] the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they [are] the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Sounds like Heaven on Earth to me!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Correlating Passages 'I create'
Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto [NEW] Zion, Thou [art] my people.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle [= NEW TEMPLE, the CHURCH] of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. the former
Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit [it]; neither shall [that] be done any more.
-----------------------------------------------------

The old covenant and the old temple and the old city have passed away:

Hbr 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: ["They are not all Israel that are of Israel.....but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rom/Rom009.html#6 ]

Hbr 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Hbr/Hbr008.html#13

[End of the OLD "Heaven and Earth"]
-----------------------------------------------------

They are replaced with a new covenant, a new temple [Know ye not that ye are the temple of God?], a new city, and a NEW LAW:

Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
http://www.blueletterbi ble.org/tsk_b/Jam/2/8.html

The New Covenant also has a new people, a new House of Israel, and you better not blaspheme them in whom the Holy Spirit dwells:
Jam 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
-

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Act 10:36 The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

Act 10:37 That word, [I say], ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

Act 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, [even] to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead.

Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God......

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

I wrote this last night, and meanwhile, unbeknownst to me, one of the kids' pets was getting sick, so I will probably be dealing with that for the rest of the day, and won't be able to finish reading or writing on this thread. I'm only going on for a quick second now to post this, because I have to keep the phone line open. I apologize for this being so long. I tried to see if I could trim it down any further, but I am distracted and couldn't really think. I hope it makes sense to you, and that we can all learn from it.
I still fail to see where God made His promises strictly to "white folks, or Anglo-Saxon blah blah blah". As an example read again Isaiah 53:10, and Acts 8:26-39, and please notice that this incident was sealed with a miracle. Something tells me Jesus knew way back then, we'd be having this discussion today.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-05 8:24:26 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#98. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#97)
I still fail to see where God made His promises strictly to "white folks, or Anglo-Saxon blah blah blah".

If you refer to my post you will see that I said 5 of the sons were most likely white, and it's possible that they all were, but impossible to gather enough evidence to support such a claim.
I appreciate your references to Isaiah because that Book's legitimacy can not be denied as it is the one Book of Scripture that has been found in its entirety at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls). My research has included some of Willie Martin's thoughts and commentary, as well as Gene Scott's, Sheldon Emery's, Comparet's, Pastor Barker, Pete Peters, George Gordon, and many, many others.
None of my conclusions are based upon Scriptures attributed to Paul unless they are in obvious agreement with Christ's own words expressed elsewhere by his "actual" disciples. And I ignore any preacher, pastor or priest that accepts the Ashkenazi Jews as the chosen.
You may have misunderstood what "I" said regarding the Lost Tribes, the Promises made by Abraham and their relevance to the present day situation. I said it is more important to recognize "who isn't" entitled to those promises than who is.
I'm a little short of time at the moment, but there is a lot I'd like to say and will in a little while.
Think on this in the mean time: Jesus is quoted by Matthew as saying:
Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
The above statement by the Messiah, coupled with his statements about having other folds has lead me to think that there is a difference between "redemption" and "salvation" ... "Redemption" is a legal term.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds (smites) you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams ... and I concur !
noone222 posted on 2006-07-05 13:23:17 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#99. To: All (#98)
Your response post is very long, and quotes a wide range of Scriptures ... could we strike up a dialogue and keep our interchanges relatively short, simple and directed to one subject at a time ?
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds (smites) you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams ... and I concur !
noone222 posted on 2006-07-05 16:00:21 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#100. To: noone222, All (#99)
Thank you for bringing the matter of length of posts up.
It would be really helpful to those of us (I'm the biggest needer) who are not as well versed as y'all seem to be. Otherwise, someone might as well just post the whole Bible or book to make a point.
This has really been a good thread, an interesting one...it would be a shame to have people turn off because of feeling 'overwhelmed'. It tends to have the appearance of a BAC cut and paste....and I know that isn't the case with All the Kings personage.
I'll but out now and continue to follow the thread....

rowdee posted on 2006-07-05 16:38:18 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#101. To: rowdee (#100)
glad you like this thread rowdee.

Red Jones posted on 2006-07-06 0:19:32 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#102. To: Red Jones (#101)
It's a good learning experience, a way to broaden one's well of knowledge...none of the nasty rancor that so often crops up when discussing matters of religiousity.
I've just recently gone thru the O/T in a study that's taken over a year. It's a good feeling to recognize as you read thru some of the quoted scriptures that you just spent time in that book, or recalling specifically those verses.

rowdee posted on 2006-07-06 0:46:22 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#103. To: noone222, Red Jones (#98)
If you refer to my post you will see that I said 5 of the sons were most likely white, and it's possible that they all were, but impossible to gather enough evidence to support such a claim.

I remember you saying that and that that comes from the brother of Rebekah, Laban, which you said means "white". I was in the process of researching that earlier today, when my computer crashed, and I lost all my links. However, I made some notes, and Laban is Strong's #03837, which means "white". 1)Son of Bethuel brother of Rebekah father of Leah and Rachel 2) a wilderness encampment of the Israelites. It also comes from several root words:
#03836 which comes from #03835:
1)to be white a) (Hiphil) 1) to make white, become white, purify
to show whiteness, grow white
b) (Hithpael) to become white, be purified (ethical)
2) (Qual) to make bricks.
Laban was also a Syrian. Were Syrians more "white" back then? I seriously don't know. I tend to think of Syrians being more dark-skinned. If not, was Laban white, or is his name actually symbolic of God making him and his seed "white" as in "pure", foreshadowing the ingathering of all nations to God's grace and RIGHTEOUSNESS under the New Covenant, as per Isaiah 1:18 "Come now and let us reason together, saith the LORD; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as WHITE as snow......," through faith in Jesus Christ. I don't know, but it would seem that way to me.
As I said earlier, the Israelites, even if they did start out white, soon became a MIXED BROOD, even to the point of marrying the forbidden peoples:
Deuteronomy 7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them bfore thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy they; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them; 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou thake unto thy son. 4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. 5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. 6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath Chosen thee to be a special people onto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. 7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people; 8 But because the LORD loved you, *** and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt......
Judges 3:1 Now these are the nations which the LORD left, to prove Israel by them, even as many of Israel as had not known all the wars of Canaan: 2 Only that the generations of the children of Israel might know, to teach them war, at the least such as before knew nothing thereof. 3 Namely, five lords of the Philistines, all all the Canaanites, and the Sidonians, and the Hivites that swelt in Mount Lebanon, from mount Baal-Hermon unto the entering in of Hamath. 4 And they were to prove Israel by them, to know whether they would hearken unto the commandments of the LORD, which he commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses. 5 And the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, Hittites, and Amorites, and Perizzites, and Hivites, and Jebusites: 6 And they took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons, and served their gods. 7 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and forgat the LORD their God, and served Baalim and the groves......
In Ezekiel 8, the Bible speaks of the abominations of the House of Israel and the House of Judah in Jerusalem. Continuing in Ezekiel 16:3 God says "....Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and the mother an Hittite." Therefore, it seems unreasonable to presume the Lost Tribes are chosen for their genetic "exclusiveness", because they are NOT exlusive, but contain the genes of most, if not all of the other nations! Remember there were only 8 people on the ark. We're probably all related somewhere down the line.
The Israelites weren't chosen for their genes, or their so-called "righteousness" [they often weren't righteous, either, which is why God cast them off], but they were CHOSEN because they were the seed of the FAITHFUL Abraham, and CHOSEN TO BE GOD'S SERVANTS, to bring His Word to the heathen. When they failed, God said He would always reserve a Holy remnant, those who "had not bowed the knee to Baal", and gather others to him [Isaiah 49:6], to become the New Israel, the New priesthood. Jesus was the final fulfillment of the PHYSICAL seed of Abraham [Galatians 3:16, Luke 3:21-38 (Mary's Genealogy)], and the "chosen"/priesthood status is now open to ALL who have FAITH IN JESUS [Gal. 3:29, Isaiah 49:6].
I appreciate your references to Isaiah because that Book's legitimacy can not be denied as it is the one Book of Scripture that has been found in its entirety at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls). My research has included some of Willie Martin's thoughts and commentary, as well as Gene Scott's, Sheldon Emery's, Comparet's, Pastor Barker, Pete Peters, George Gordon, and many, many others.
None of my conclusions are based upon Scriptures attributed to Paul unless they are in obvious agreement with Christ's own words expressed elsewhere by his "actual" disciples. And I ignore any preacher, pastor or priest that accepts the Ashkenazi Jews as the chosen.
You may have misunderstood what "I" said regarding the Lost Tribes, the Promises made by Abraham and their relevance to the present day situation. I said it is more important to recognize "who isn't" entitled to those promises than who is.

I'm told that Isaiah is set up like a mini-New Testament. Isaiah is one of my favorite prophets. The Jews hated him I guess, because they "sawed him asunder with a wooden saw" according to Justin Martyr. I am also told that they do not read Isaiah 53 in their Synagogues, yet they consider themselves to be the SUFFERING SERVANT spoken of therein [See WHO IS THE SON OF GOD at http://www.noahide.com ].
I don't know enough about it, but I harbor the suspicion that the "Dead Sea Scrolls" may be another hoax contrived to destroy the truth. I'm sticking with the Bible for now.
I've seen a little of Gene Scott on TV, and reserve comment. I have read some of Pastor Sheldon Emry, and I agree with him that THE OLD JERUSALEM IS NOT THE NEW JERUSALEM. His BILLIONS FOR THE BANKERS, DEBTS FOR THE PEOPLE is another good one. However, I disagree with him ALSO that Israel is the "white, Anglo- Saxon, etc. etc."
I also do not accept the Ashkenazi Jews as the "chosen", not because of their genes, but because of their lack of faith in Jesus Christ. Look at Michael Hoffman. He is an Askenazi Jew, but you probably will not find a more erudite, vocal, and eloquent spokesman against the errors of the Jews and for the truth of Jesus Christ. Take me, FAR from his equal, descended from the "white, Anglo- Saxon, Celtic, etc. etc." according to one family name, but ALSO from the Ashkenazi Jews according to THE SAME NAME. I am also related to the top Illuminati, but I am so far removed from them spiritually it isn't funny. According to your doctrine, I should just hang it up and accept eternal damnation because I had the misfortune to have the "wrong genes". What a defeating doctrine that is. If it were true, God would have to be a sadist, and the "unchosen" would follow Satan because he would promise them the world if they would just follow him. Hmmm....sounds like a satanic plot to me.
Furthermore, if you read into The Thirteenth Tribe [the Khazars/Ashkenazis], you will find that many of the tribe were WHITE, had blond or red hair and BLUE EYES. They sound a lot like the "white, Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, etc. etc." They claimed to be THREE OF THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL. God said he had cast off three shepherds in one month because His soul abhorred them and vice versa. I would not be surprised if this was where the Ashkenazis originated, and I would not be surprised if one of the three tribes was the tribe of Dan, because the Khazars exhibited many traits of this tribe. Might they not also be part of the PHYSICAL Lost Sheep? Might it be His plan to bring them here [Micah 4:11- 13] for us to SET STRAIGHT? I don't know; but do wonder.

Think on this in the mean time: Jesus is quoted by Matthew as saying:
Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
The above statement by the Messiah, coupled with his statements about having other folds
I still maintain that "they are not all Israel that are of Israel....those of the promise are counted for the seed.." [Again, see Galatians 3:16-29, and Isaiah 49:6: It is a light thing that thou should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved (REMNANT!) of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth." Revelation 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; for thou was slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.] Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I AM the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall addunto him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part of of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.....

Did you read the link that Red Jones posted?

[ #67 http://www http://.sweet liberty.org/issues/hoax/unionjack_epilogue.htm
about 2/3's down they have the cornwallis quote. - Red Jones]

I had read it a couple of times before, but in light of this thread, I saw it with a whole new set of eyes.
Yesterday, I ran across a couple of other things that tie in with all of this:
".....The insidious legalism and Kabbalism of the Chabad Lubavitch movement [note: synonymous with the NOAHIDE LAW] has also entered the Church disguised as the Hebraic Roots Movement. Although Christians are to obey the secular authorities when it does not require them to disobey God, they are not called to establish the Old Testament or any other form of moral law to govern mankind. Nor is the Church of Jesus Christ itself under the Old Testament Law, but under Grace. (Romans 6:14) The Church Age -- the Age of Grace -- will come to a close [have to qualify the following, because I am a partial preterist, so I do not believe in the "Rapture", another NWO hoax:] with the Rapture of the Church, and the 70th week Daniel will commence God's dealings with the nation of Israel under the Mosaic Law. (Dan. 9:27)....." [Furthermore, I believe Dan. 9:27 was fulfilled with Jesus confirming the New Covenant, and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.]
UNDER THE [NOAHIDE] LAW
http://watch.pair.com/law.html
Then see the HEBRAIC ROOTS MOVEMENT ~ Judaizing the Christian Church [link at the bottome of the above page].
You had asked me earlier about Esau's hope. We tend to forget that God blessed Esau with much prosperity, and forgiveness in his heart for His brother Jacob. Story at Genesis 33.
Justin Martyr explained in his Dialagogue With Trypho a Jew [ccel.org], that God has broken down the veil of separation and has called all men to be brothers in Christ. You might want to read Ezekiel 34, and then read about the "old man" that educated Justin, and who I believe came away with a "gifted" understanding of the Scripture. Then you might ponder again "lost sheep", "other folds", and "knock and the door shall be opened". Justin had tried all the other doors to wisdom and they led nowhere. My personal opinion is that the "old man" ["Do you know me". "I have come to look for some of my HOUSEhold who have gone away from me"] was Jesus. That is one of the reasons I have difficulty understanding where all this animosity toward Paul stems from. To me, he is the perfect witness: a former Pharisee and mad persecutor of Christians, who became the most prominent disciple and proceeded to die a martyr's death, FOR WHAT PURPOSE? if he was not a true believer in the Christ who CHOSE him? Methinks some folks would like to kill the message he delivers in Galatians 3 and 4, for example.
I started this yesterday morning. After being sidetracked by another thread, crashing several times, and spending hours tracking "lost kids", I am just now getting back to this, and I STILL have not read all the comments.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-10 13:51:46 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#104. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#103)
I still maintain that "they are not all Israel that are of Israel....those of the promise are counted for the seed.." [Again, see Galatians 3:16-29, and Isaiah 49:6: It is a light thing that thou should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved (REMNANT!) of Israel:

Like I said before, I haven't determined fully that what Paul says is of any value to "me". Modern Christianity places more impetus on Paul than the rest of the Scripture, I don't. Many would simply call me a heretic ... and that's ok.
The Scriptures quoted by you above are at variance. However, Paul refers to the Book of Hosea at:
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee (Book of Hosea), I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. This refers to the overall theme of the Book of Hosea where God tells the prophet to name the kids he has by the whore God told him to marry (representing the 10 Northern Tribes that have worshipped strange gods,) "Not my people", "forgotten" and "scattered". He then relents and says a time will come when they will be My people, and beloved or remembered, and no longer scattered.
In that scripture you're quoting above, the Book of Galations, Paul calls them "gentiles", but the Gauls were of the ten northern tribes !
It was never my intention to itemize the exact lineage of every Tribe of Israel over the course of 3500 years. As a matter of fact I believe it may be beyond the realm of human possibility without a more perfect understanding of DNA, and an honest application of said knowledge should it become available.
Firstly, I think it's more important to make modern Christianity understand that it's wrong for them to call for and finance the slaughter of Arabs in support of those so-called (Ashkenazi / Israeli) Jews claiming descendancy from Abraham that are liars, and are in truth another grouping of gentiles descended from Japeth according to scripture and historical information that "IS" readily available.
[It would be quite an undertaking to analyze the true heritage of everyone of the tribes. Illegitimate children are not always determined, surely there were adoptions and other hindrances to ever knowing the exact lineage of these lost generations. I also think we've been misled to think that the peoples of the Middle-East today are the same as those that occupied the area 3500 years ago. The Egyptians were ruled by the Hyksos Kings for a very long time. Hyksos Kings means sheperd kings]. Egypt was also divided into two parts, upper and lower, having separate kings at times. Joseph, who ruled as "Prime Minister" of Egypt was the favored son of Jacob (Israel), set his dad and brothers up with estates in Goshen, which was prime real estate, and also had two boys by his Egyptian wife, their names were Ephraim and Manasseh, who were later adopted by Jacob/Israel. She may or may not have been white, we don't know.
The study is interesting and sometimes when I find conflicting issues I wonder if it's just not me that doesn't fully understand ... and many times I discover that to be the case ... a little later after more study.
I don't think there's enough time in one life to figure it all out.
Here's an interesting speculation not commonly known. After the Christ's death, Joseph of Arimthea (Jesus Uncle), Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of Jesus and Lazarus (Mary Magdalene's brother) went to first to France and some went on the Brit ain. Lazarus was the first Bishop of Marseilles, France. Some believe that Joseph of Arimthea was familiar with these lands because he was a wealthy tin merchant and the tin mines were in Britain.
See [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Lazarus ]
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds (smites) you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams ... and I concur !
noone222 posted on 2006-07-10 16:39:32 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#105. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#103)
Were Syrians more "white" back then?

I have read that there once were whites in the middle east thousands of years ago. but I wasn't there myself at that time, so I don't know.

Red Jones posted on 2006-07-11 0:20:14 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#106. To: noone222, Red Jones (#104)
Firstly, I think it's more important to make modern Christianity understand that it's wrong for them to call for and finance the slaughter of Arabs in support of those so-called (Ashkenazi / Israeli) Jews claiming descendancy from Abraham that are liars, and are in truth another grouping of gentiles descended from Japeth according to scripture and historical information that "IS" readily available.

I agree the most important thing is to destroy the myth that the people calling themselves Jews are the "chosen people", since that is the root of most of the murder and thievery going on in the world today. Although it is not my intent to render them any quarter by their race, whatever it is, do you not suppose that some of Jacob's wives may have been of the tribe of Japeth?
I don't think there's enough time in one life to figure it all out.
Agreed, and perhaps to spend too much time to do so results in "endless genealogies that cause strife". I want to spend enough time on it to destroy the myth.
Here's an interesting speculation not commonly known. After the Christ's death, Joseph of Arimthea (Jesus Uncle), Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of Jesus and Lazarus (Mary Magdalene's brother) went to first to France and some went on the Brit ain. Lazarus was the first Bishop of Marseilles, France. Some believe that Joseph of Arimthea was familiar with these lands because he was a wealthy tin merchant and the tin mines were in Britain.
I started a post on this last night, got tired, decided to unplug the internet, go to bed, and finish this morning, and my computer froze. So here I am again.
noone, I think the above is more of the British-Israel, the "British Monarchy is the throne of David, etc." myth that the NWO plans to rule the world with. They claim that the British Monarchy is the throne God chose to "get his message out".
"...The four main topics of this page are God's plan of Trusteeship, Joseph's Company of disciples coming to Britain, the outflow of Missionaries from Glastonbury, and why England was chosen for the sanctuary of Christanity.....

WHY ENGLAND?
There are some very good superficial reasons why all this took place in England. Because of Joseph's merchant business it was a known location, where Royal friends could help, and far from persecution. The deeper levels of meaning require broader levels of perspective. Without going into detail again, I'll mention that the Lost Tribes were headquartered in Britain. Ephraim and Judah, were already running the country. These folks, and their cousins that would come in later, are the very ones who God drafted to take His message to the world....."
Joseph of A.
http://asis.com/~stag/josephar.html
Church of Glastonbury [pagan] http://www.asis.com/~stag/glaston b.html
Here are some passages that would tend to disprove that God had anything but contempt for Ephraim's message:

Isa 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty [is] a fading flower, which [are] on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!

Isa 28:3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:

Jer 4:15 For a voice declareth from Dan, and publisheth affliction from mount Ephraim. [please note that Ephraim and Dan are the only two tribes that are not listed by name as being sealed by God in Rev. 7]

Jer 7:15 And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, [even] the whole seed of Ephraim.

Hsa 4:17 Ephraim [is] joined to idols: let him alone.

Hsa 5:3 I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hid from me: for now, O Ephraim, thou committest whoredom, [and] Israel is defiled.

Hsa 5:5 And the pride of Israel doth testify to his face: therefore shall Israel and Ephraim fall in their iniquity; Judah also shall fall with them.
The British Monarchy CLAIMS that they are of the tribes of Ephraim and Judah. Small wonder they would try to claim that, because ORIGINALLY, Judah received the sceptre, and Ephraim received the birthright from Joseph.

1Ch 5:2 — For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him [came] the chief ruler; but the birthright [was] Joseph's:)
http://www.blueletterbi ble.org/tsk_b/1Ch/5/2.html

Gen 48:8 And Israel beheld Joseph's sons, and said, Who [are] these?
[Now I don't put much credence in the Talmud, except that I believe the Jews have messed with the Bible, and sometimes, it is possible that the Talmud reveals some things they would really rather we didn't know. I once read that the "sages" said that when Jacob said "Who are these?", he wasn't just seeing Ephraim and Manasseh, but a whole multitude. I find that interesting. Is it possible Jacob DID see Ephraim's "children"? the multitudes, tribes, and tongues of the whole earth who would become the NEW Israel, the church? Ephraim was the leader of the ten tribes, and Ephraim is synonymous with "Israel"

Gen 48:9 And Joseph said unto his father, They [are] my sons, whom God hath given me in this [place]. And he said, Bring them, I pray thee, unto me, and I will bless them.

Gen 48:10 Now the eyes of Israel were dim for age, [so that] he could not see. And he brought them near unto him; and he kissed them, and embraced them.

Gen 48:11 And Israel said unto Joseph, I had not thought to see thy face: and, lo, God hath shewed me also thy seed.

Gen 48:12 And Joseph brought them out from between his knees, and he bowed himself with his face to the earth.

Gen 48:13 And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel's right hand, and brought [them] near unto him.

Gen 48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid [it] upon Ephraim's head, who [was] the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh [was] the firstborn.

Gen 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,

Gen 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name ["Israel"] be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Gen 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

Gen 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this [is] the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

Gen 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know [it], my son, I know [it]: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

Gen 48:20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

Gen 48:21 And Israel said unto Joseph, Behold, I die: but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.

Gen 48:22 Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow.
http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen048.html#20
Note that here God calls EPHRAIM HIS FIRSTBORN:

Jer 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim [is] my firstborn.
However, God also says that JESUS is HIS FIRSTBORN, and the following is a very good page for you to look at:
http://www.pre teristarchive.com/Jesus_is_Israel/index.html

I had started to get a handle on all this British-Israel last night, but I really can't get into it today. You are more into than I am, so please have at it, if you will, and when you figure it all out, I would sure like to know. As I see it, there is some kind of conspiracy surrounding the NWO's take on Joseph of A. Did you know that the gargoyle-covered National Cathedral [Episcopal or Catholic-lite] has some sort of "crypt" for Joseph of A? The British-Israel myth seems to be perpetrated there as well.
If you want, look at some of these pages starting here:
http://asis.com/~stag/royalty.html

".....TROJANS/MILESIANS/CELTS/SCYTHIANS

I can recall one place in Spain that is named after a Biblical family; however not one of the tribes. This is Zaragosa, which comes from Zarah, Judah's first-born.
It was Zarah's family that ruled for over a 100 years in Egypt after Joseph's death, and before the Egyptians revolted against the (Hyksos) foreign rulers. At that time the nobility, the Zarahites, fled across the Mediterranean sea to already established cities. Cities that had been founded by their own family: Troy, Athens, Miletus, and more. Diodorus talks of two exoduses out of Egypt, one by sea, one under Moses. These Zarahites then migrated west, the Milesian/Zarahites arriving in Spain and Ireland near 600-700 BC.
One famous Trojan/Zarahite named Brutus landed in Britain 1103 BC and founded New Troy; later to be renamed London.
It's this Zarah stream of the Judah line that makes sense out of Ezekiel's prophecy of 17:22-24 and 21:25-27. The high tree is the Pharez line, the low tree is the Zarah line. Him that is high is Pharez, him that is low is Zarah. It was the Pharez line that came out of Egypt as the rulers of the Judah line (Jacob gave Judah the sceptre and lawmaking). With the Zarahites gone to the northern Mediterranean, the Pharezites took their rightful place as rulers.
The exalting of the Zarah line was when Jeremiah married off one of King Zedekiah's daughters to the High Zarahite King of Ireland about 583 BC. Thereby bringing the two lines together and establishing the Zarah line again as pre- eminent. All the kings and queens of the British Isles and northwest Europe come out of that union.
And why not? Didn't God say that David would "never want for a man on the throne?" These kings and queens out of the line of Judah were and have been ruling over the Lost Tribes these many centuries: 25-plus.
I haven't time to properly research the subject, but it has come to my attention that George Washington and other American Fathers had ties back to English nobility. And John F. Kennedy's heritage included kings of Ireland. Methinks Judah is ruling the United States as well. Here's some more information on American Presidents' ties with the line of David/European royalty ...."
Zarah you remember was the twin brother of Pharez, of their father, Judah, and their mother Tamar [THIS is the one I would like to know the geanealogy of. There is some super secret society named after Tamar.]. Zarah put his hand out first, and the midwife put a red ribbon on his wrist. Pharez came fully out first, and so he was named Pharez, which means Breach.

Gen 38:27 And it came to pass in the time of her travail, that, behold, twins [were] in her womb.

Gen 38:28 And it came to pass, when she travailed, that [the one] put out [his] hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first.

Gen 38:29 And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? [this] breach [be] upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez.

Gen 38:30 And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.
http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen038.html#27
NOTE that THE BIBLE says that PHAREZ [from whom Jesus was descended] is the firstborn. Note that THE BRITISH-ISRAEL DOCTRINE says that ZARAH is the firstborn! IS THIS THE "BREACH THAT THE REPAIRER OF THE BREACH WILL HEAL"? I don't know!
Now the Kabbalah has a red ribbon on the wrist as part of their mystical religion. Is it possible there is a connection? [See Madonna and her red- ribbon religion: http://freedom4um.com/cgi- bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=30038 ]. I don't know, and I am too tired and depressed to try to figure it out today.
All I know is, the British Monarchy is a pack of Druids and pagans, uniter of false religions, and it is said, although I have no way of proving it, that they sacrifice children in Satanic rituals. I did watch all the pomp and ceremony it took to put on just one of the Queen's dinners, and it took six months to prepare, and they even measured the distance between each plate, etc. and the distance of each chair from the table. It was all totally ridiculous. It was maddening as well, because the US IS STILL A BRITISH COLONY EXTORTING TAXES FOR THE CROWN [search http://apfn.org], and we help paid for it.
See Israel's symbols. Note Dan [His MAIN symbol is the EAGLE. see THE LOST TRIBE OF DAN at http://watch.pair.com]. Note Ephraim. Their symbols are the OX, or BULL, and the unicorn. The Brits should have read Justin Martyr. Where Jesus says in Psalm 22, the Bulls of Bashan surround me, Justin says the BULLS were THE PHARISEES.
http://asis.com/~stag/symbols.html
After you've duly noted the symbols the Brits so proudly hail, have a look at the picture here:

ANTICHRIST AND A CUP OF TEA
http://www.cuttingedge.org/d etail.cfm?ID=178
Okay, that's about all I can stand to delve into this today. It makes me irritable. noone, I know you and I are on the same side. I hope we will both be on the side of the sheep when Jesus comes to judge between the sheep and the goats.
Peace.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-12 9:33:45 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#107. To: All (#106)
and we help paid for it.

we helped pay for it. [groan]

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-12 9:40:45 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#108. To: noone222 (#106)
Didn't God say that David would "never want for a man on the throne?" These kings and queens out of the line of Judah were and have been ruling over the Lost Tribes these many centuries: 25-plus.
I haven't time to properly research the subject, but it has come to my attention that George Washington and other American Fathers had ties back to English nobility. And John F. Kennedy's heritage included kings of Ireland. Methinks Judah is ruling the United States as well. Here's some more information on American Presidents' ties with the line of David/European royalty ...."

right. Forgot to mention:
Psalms - Chapter 2
Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying],

Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
[Ezekiel 34:11-13/John 10, Michah 4. search FIRST CHARTER OF VIRGINIA 1606, CROSS PLANTED AT CAPE HENRY VIRGINIA 1607, NATION DEDICATED TO JESUS CHRIST AND THE SPREADING OF THE GOSPEL.]

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession.

Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-12 9:50:27 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#109. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#108)
Although it is not my intent to render them any quarter by their race, whatever it is, do you not suppose that some of Jacob's wives may have been of the tribe of Japeth?

It's more likely that they would have been descended from Ham's offspring as they were closer geographically.
Here's the rub from a historical perspective that will eventually become clearer as Archaeology exposes it. The Romans destroyed much of the record, and historical records were generally written to satisfy the writers agenda. Even today, Rome hides much information and has for centuries. America is more Roman than most realize, and so is our educational system.
The research that I've done of 25 years or so has convinced me that there is far more truth to the so-called British-Israel message than any so-called Christian Church offers today. I haven't found myself able to overcome some questions that I have related to the subject either. Even though you mentioned the possibility that Joseph could have had children by a descendant of Japeth and I disagree, that doesn't mean that I don't think the Khazarians couldn't have been members of one of the Tribes because I think that is very possible and might go as far as to say likely. Certainly migration wasn't limited to the Tribes either, so it is possible that Babylonians migrated to the area that Japeth is alleged to have settled in.
Much time has passed and many peoples have been forced to move simply to avoid the slaughters and plagues they encountered. The Scriptures say that Japeth will live in the tents of Shem ... so they probably do.
I'm not at all interested in elevating any ethnic group to "chosen status" as God looked at his creation after the 6th day and found it "very good". Who am I to argue with God. My agenda, for lack of a better word, is to try and awaken fundamentalist Christians to their error of supporting the murdering bastards called zionists. As far as convincing others as to what they should believe goes, I'm not interested in doing that at all.
Each person has within their own self the desire or lack of it to prioritize between materiality and spirituality, that is not my concern. My concern is for the innocent people we collectively are murdering for no justifiable reason.
I have found that throwing out evidences supporting "my" beliefs usually creates a time wasting argument that prevents me from furthering my own investigations. It looks to me that you too search in honesty and I believe you will find what your heart causes you to.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds (smites) you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams ... and I concur !
noone222 posted on 2006-07-12 11:22:55 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#110. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#108)
Didn't God say that David would "never want for a man on the throne?" These kings and queens out of the line of Judah were and have been ruling over the Lost Tribes these many centuries: 25-plus.

I think they are, as have been much of European Royalty. As I stated earlier, I did a geneological search from one of the twins born to Judah (named Zarah) ... and after clicking many times King Edward the 1st (Longshanks) was noted as a descendant of Judah.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds (smites) you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams ... and I concur !
noone222 posted on 2006-07-12 13:28:24 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#111. To: noone222, Red Jones, All (#109)
Noted, and hope to add some thoughts later.
It has been a long and stressful few weeks on the home front, and I still have not read this whole thread. I logged on for the first time in days last night, and have a lot of catching up to do. Someone, on one of the threads [I don't know who it was, but thank you whoever you are, because it explained in a nutshell what this is all about] posted a link to the depleted uranium population reduction mechanism being waged against the world by the KINGS [and queens] AND RULERS OF THE EARTH, namely the JUDEO-BRITISH MONARCHY and their relatives, "THE RULERS" BUSH & CHENEY et al. What immediately came to mind was the famous quote made by the Queen's hubby, Prince Philip. Here are some links on the subject:
for prince philip virus population reduction.
Prince Philip's Malthusians Launch New Age Killer CultsIn 1988, Britain's Prince Philip expressed the wish that, should he be reincarnated, he would want to be a deadly virus that would reduce world population. ... http://american_almanac.tri pod.com/killer.htm
Alex Jones' Prison http://Planet.com Here is a re-cap of some of the things "HIS ROYAL VIRUS", Prince Philip has said ... by a drastic reduction in the rate of increase in the human population. ... http://www.pr isonplanet.com/Pages/100604_prince_philip.html
Top Scientist Advocates Mass Culling 90% Of Human Population In the foreword to his biography If I Were An Animal, Prince Philip wrote, "In the event that I am reincarnated, I would like to return as a deadly virus, http://www.prisonplanet.com/article s/ april2006/030406massculling.htm
Prince Philip - His Royal Virus Prince Philip, In His Own Words: We Need To 'Cull' The Surplus Population. Printed in The American Almanac, August 25, 1997. His Royal Virus ... http://www.propagandamatrix.c om/prince.html
Prince Philip's Malthusians Launch New Age Killer Cults With its propaganda for a massive reduction of the American population, NPG serves the purposes of those British forces, in the environs of Prince Philip, http://www.churchof euthanasia.org/press/larouche.html
Chemtrails Laced with Disease Organisms For Population Reduction ..."In the event that I am reincarnated, I would like to return as a deadly virus, in order to contribute something to solve overpopulation" HRH Prince Philip, http://educate-yourself.org/ct/ sprayingdiseasesviachemtrails27jul03.shtml
mhp: News CurrEvent/Health "This virus is quite different from what we see with the standard annual ... HRH Prince Philip, interview "Vanishing Breeds Worry Prince Philip, ... http://www.modernhistoryproject.org/ mhp/NewsDisplay.php?Topic=CurrEvent/Health -
Tinny Blair Blares For Prince Philip's Global Eco-Fascism Her Majesty's Royal Virus It is no exaggeration that the Prince Philip- and Prince ... in which he singled out 13 nations for drastic population reduction, http://www.red- ice.net/news/2004/princephilipWWF.html
Tinny Blair Blares for Prince Philip's Global Eco-FascismHer Majesty's Royal Virus. It is no exaggeration that the Prince Philip- and Prince ... in which he singled out 13 nations for drastic population reduction, ... http://www.memb ers.tripod.com/~american_almanac/tinny.htm
CANOE LIVE - CNEWS FORUM Prince Phillip, Duke of Edinburgh, leader of the World Wildlife Fund: “If I were ... be lead by example in the population reduction movement by going first. www.canoe.ca/mb2/messages/cnewsf/11104.html
Any doctrine that touts these monsters as people God left in charge of his lost sheep, is full of baloney.
There is more baloney at the site as well, which, God willing, I will get back to. I am beginning to think this is a very important part of the NWO plot.
I will say this about the website owner. I think he MEANS well, but is also taken in by the liars and deceivers, but we all have our roles to play in God's plan to "thresh" the evil-doers. His site is very informative from 'their' viewpoint [know thine enemy]. I will also say this, and then I have got to get off for awhile [again], when I linked to one page of his site from a 'clean' URL, it automatically came up HERE [as if he wanted to be sure people came away with this truth]:
Caution:
Satan enters in to ALL God's Truth to turn us aside. Some fearful ones have succumbed to the Tempter and taken this information to it's worst possible end; White Supremacy. They become The Elite Chosen People of God. Rubbish! ! ! Beware. The Lost Tribes teaching is supposed to end in glorifying GOD, not man.
It's the most wonderful demonstration of God's ability and faithfulness to be found after Jesus; in some respects more so because there is so much more physical/historical evidence available.
http://asis.com/~stag/losttri b.html#Subject List

Where Jesus wanted to draw all men as ONE back to Himself, the Father; the DEVIL, counterfeiter and antagonist that he is, has always sought to separate men from God.
Jhn 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Jhn 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[ http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jhn/17/20.html and +++ http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Rom/16/26.html ]

Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.......
One more quick thought, and I have to go for now:

Gen 49:8 Judah, thou [art he] whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand [shall be] in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.

Gen 49:9 Judah [is] a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him [shall] the gathering of the people [be].

Gen 49:11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes: .....
This refers to THAT SEED AGAIN, which is JESUS CHRIST [ +++ http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Gen/49/10.html ], AND THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM, as Paul stated in Galatians 3:16-29.

I don't have time at the moment. Look up SHILOH in the concordance, and the root word. Note the words "to be at rest"
See the prophecy of the TEMPLE OR HOUSE OF THE LORD [church], WHICH DAVID, SOLOMON, HIRAM, AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH SINCE THEN HAVE APPARENTLY NOT UNDERSTOOD. THEY REJECTED THE STONE [JESUS CHRIST] THAT BECAME THE CORNER OF THE BUILDING [CHURCH]. [ http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Psa/118/22.html ]. THEY HAVE BEEN REJECTING IT SINCE BETHEL, WHICH MEANS 'HOUSE OF GOD'. THIS 'LIA FAIL' 'STONE OF DESTINY' THEY CARRY HITHER AND THITHER [SEE AT ASIS.COM] IS NOT THE TRUE ROCK, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST.

1Ch 22:5 And David said, Solomon my son [is] young and tender, and the house [that is] to be builded for the LORD [must be] exceeding magnifical, of fame and of glory throughout all countries: I will [therefore] now make preparation for it. So David prepared abundantly before his death.

1Ch 22:6 Then he called for Solomon his son, and charged him to build an house for the LORD God of Israel.

1Ch 22:7 And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God:

1Ch 22:8 But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.

1Ch 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.
[++++ NOTE THE MEANING OF THE NAME SOLOMON: http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/1Ch/22/9.html ]

1Ch 22:10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I [will be] his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.....
This refers to Jesus Christ building His NEW TEMPLE/NEW ISRAEL the CHURCH:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/1Ch/22/10.html
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Ch/1Ch022.html#9
***** Shiloh has come. He is JESUS CHRIST, ++++ KING OF KINGS, and LORD OF LORDS, The FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST, AND THE [WORLD] GOVERNMENT WILL BE UPON HIS SHOULDER, NOT THEIRS.
The KINGS AND RULERS OF THE EARTH, propagators of the British-Israel Lost Tribes false doctrine, AND DESTROYERS OF THE EARTH AND PEOPLE, need to MOVE OVER and learn to KISS THE SON. Psalm 2:12.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Rev/19/16.html
gotta go...
p.s. made a mistake on Zarah. It does not mean 'breach'. more later....

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-19 12:54:57 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#112. To: noone222 (#109)
I started a post a couple of days ago on some thoughts by Justin Martyr on the historical position of the church, that Christians are the New Israel. My computer froze up a little while ago, and so I lost it all
I also spent a good deal of time today reading some papers I ran across that I had printed out some time ago, on the Lost Tribes, including the tribe of Zarah. Now a lot of the pieces are starting to fall into place for me, but I am still digesting it all, [but still confident that Israel is the church]. There is definitely "something" about Zarah in the NWO scheme of things. I am beginning to wonder if the tribe of Zarah is meant here, since it is claimed that the sons of Zarah left Egypt before the "affliction":

Jhn 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn008.html#33
Most people think it refers to the sons of Esau. However, I have read that the Rothschild name means either "Ruth's child" or "red shield". I have also read that the name has something to do with "The widow's son", and the NWO get upset when this is mentioned. Everyone seems to suppose that the "widow's son" refers to Ruth as the widow. TAMAR, however, was ALSO a widow. What with the secret-society named after a woman by her name, and in light of a whole host of issues, I do wonder if perhaps it has more to do with her than Ruth. I'm too tired to continue tonight......

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-28 3:58:23 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#113. To: Red Jones (#0)
Rethinking Romans 13
In July of 1774, our forefathers met in Fairfax County, Va., and considered ways of forcing Great Britain to redress American grievances. George Washington and George Mason were the instrumental agents in drafting what has come to be known as the "Fairfax Resolves."

Ponder for a moment Resolves five and six:

"Resolved that the claim lately assumed and exercised by the British Parliament, of making all such Laws as they think fit, to govern the people of these colonies, contrary to the first Principles of the Constitution, and the original Compacts by which we are dependent upon the British Crown and Government; but is totally incompatible with the privileges of a free people, and the natural Rights of Mankind; will render our own Legislatures merely nominal and nugatory, and is calculated to reduce us from a state of freedom and happiness to slavery and misery."

"Resolved that Taxation and Representation are in their nature inseparable; that the right of withholding, or of giving and granting their own money is the only effectual security to a free people, against the encroachments of Despotism and Tyranny; and that whenever they yield to one they fall prey to the other."

All of the Resolves are loaded with bullets that explode against a tyrannical and despotic government. The "shot that was heard around the world on Lexington green was loaded in the "Fairfax Resolves." How can one make that statement? After pleading with George III to uphold his covenant agreement and after seeking for a redress of grievances, the "coup de grace" is plainly stated in the 23rd Resolve:

"Resolved that it be recommended to the Deputies of the general Congress to draw up and transmit an humble and dutiful petition and remonstrance to his Majesty, asserting with decent firmness our just and constitutional Rights and Privileges, lamenting the fatal necessity of being compelled to enter into measures disgusting to his Majesty and his Parliament, or injurious to our fellow subjects in Great Britain; declaring the strongest terms of duty and affection to his Majesty's person, family and government, and our desire to continue our dependence upon Great Britain; and must humbly beseeching his Majesty, not to reduce his faithful subjects of America to a state of desperation, and to reflect, that from our Sovereign there can be but one appeal."

In simple terms, the Resolves offered George III two obvious choices. One was to fulfill his covenant obligations and be the king and ruler to the American Colonies that he had agreed to be or, second, to prepare for war. George III was asked to reflect upon the fact, that if he did not keep his end of the covenant, there could "be but one appeal."

Press 1 for English, Press 2 for English, Press 3 for deportation
Uncle Bill posted on 2006-07-28 5:21:42 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#114. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#112)
There is definitely "something" about Zarah in the NWO scheme of things. I am beginning to wonder if the tribe of Zarah is meant here, since it is claimed that the sons of Zarah left Egypt before the "affliction":

The sons of Zarah were noted to be nearly as wise as Solomon, and actually wrote some of the Biblical Psalms.
Here are two verses that point to the sons of Zerah (Zarah/Zara)but you have to have to be looking for it because one verse uses the name Mahol and the other Zerah, but the sons names are identical, Zimri left off in the first verse.
1Ki 4:30 And Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country, and all the wisdom of Egypt.
1Ki 4:31 For he was wiser than all men; than "Ethan" the Ezrahite, and "Heman", and "Chalcol", and "Darda", the sons of Mahol: and his fame was in all nations round about.
1Ch 2:6 And the sons of Zerah; Zimri, and Ethan, and Heman, and Calcol, and Dara: five of them in all.
The name Dara is sometimes written as Darda or Dardanus. Darda founded Athens, Greece and Troy.
The fact that these men were world travelers and that they and their descendants established many great cities gets little publicity.
We have been denied many truths regarding the migrations of a people that when studied appear to be the Israelites that left Assyrian Captivity in 1500 BC.
The Behistun Rock is a carving on the side of a mountain. It is the legacy of Darius, King of the Medes. On it he states that: This day I have conquered the gauls (galations), they call themselves keltoi (celts) and say they have been a "nation" for 1000 years. [This carving was inscribed in 500 BC, meaning the Celts/Keltoi/Galations/Gauls had been a nation since 1500 BC ... the time that the Israelites left Assyria.
There is a lot of info "out there" but it takes some digging.
Bertrand Comparet, and Willie Martin have extensive archives that assist in sorting things out in the Scriptures.
Dr. Gene Scott also delved into this Biblical history and had audio archives on his website that have been removed by his wife since his death. His audio archives are priceless and should be put back on the net.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds (smites) you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams ... and I concur !
noone222 posted on 2006-07-28 6:26:37 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#115. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt, noone222, Uncle Bill (#112)
Source - http://whitehorsemedia.com/articles/artDetails.cfm?artID=56
Israel and Armageddon: Facts vs. Fiction
by Steve Wohlberg
Armageddon: The Cosmic Battle of the Ages is now launched. It is Book 11 of the New York Times best-selling Left Behind series. Unleashed on April 8, 2003 in the wake of a 5 million dollar ad campaign, Armageddon is now being read across the U.S. by Christians and "secular searchers" alike looking for answers in the midst of an America now at "War Against Terror." Leftbehind.com, in it's description of Armageddon's basic story line, portrays a final remnant of scattered believers as being "drawn inexorably toward the Middle East, as are all the armies of the world, when history hones in on the battle of the ages.
Although couched in well-written fiction, Armageddon echoes the non-fiction theology of a small group of evangelical Bible teachers which is now eagerly being read by millions. The scene: History's last battlefield in the Middle East. Final contestants: The Powers of Earth vs. the Jews. Nature of conflict: Military. Epicenter: A small valley northwest of Jerusalem where "all the armies of the world" will converge for "the battle of the ages."
Supposedly - at least according to books like Armageddon, radio programs like Irvin Baxter Jr.'s Politics and Religion, TV networks like Pat Robertson's CBN and Paul Crouch's TBN, and high-budget apocalyptic films like The Omega Code - the Bible's final prophecies will swirl around modern Israel and the blood- stained city of Jerusalem. During history's last moments - again, supposedly - the Almighty will finally pulverize Israel's invading enemies and defend His chosen people, the Jews. This end-of-the-age scenario is now being taught in Christian circles all over planet Earth.
The belief that God will ultimately defend Middle East Jews at Armageddon is so strongly embedded within the 21st century evangelical psyche that it has spilled over into politics and even influences U.S. foreign policy toward the Jewish State (1). The United States not only supports Israel as a democracy - which it should - but countless U.S. citizens, including prophecy-minded, politically active Christians in Washington D.C., believe strongly that if we support Israel, God will support us. From California to New York, on radio and TV, the line is often heard, "He who blesses Israel will be blessed, and He who curses Israel will be cursed," although this oft-repeated phrase is really a misinterpretation of Genesis 12:3 which contains one sentence spoken to Abraham alone, not to the Israeli nation.
Personally, I am Jewish and love Jewish people. I also believe in Jesus Christ as my Messiah and Savior. As any Christian should, I long to see God's blessing come upon both Jews and Arabs alike. The purpose of this article is not to condemn U.S. support for Israel or to try and solve a seemingly unsolvable Middle East mess, rather, it's assignment is to take a second look at what the New Testament - especially the book of Revelation - really says about Israel, Jerusalem and Armageddon. Is Left Behind's blockbuster 11th book, Armageddon: The Cosmic Battle of the Ages, correct in its core assumption that God will defend modern Jerusalem during Earth's last war? Is the current "God-Is-Behind- Israel" theology of so many evangelical Christians really right? Or could there be "something wrong with this picture"? Let's find out.
First of all - and this truth has seismic implications - the New Testament actually describes two Israels, not just one. Paul wrote, "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Romans 9:6). What does this shocking text mean? Look closely. Those "of Israel" refer to people belonging to the literal Jewish nation. But just because people are "of Israel," or Jewish, doesn't necessarily mean they are truly "Israel" indeed!
To clarify, Paul said there is an "Israel according to the flesh" (1 Corinthians 10:18) and an "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:14-16) centered in Jesus Christ. For simplicity's sake, I'll call the first group, Israel one, and the second group, Israel Two. Israel one is composed of "Israelites … according to the flesh" (Romans 9:3,4) which refer to literal Jews who can trace their blood line back to Abraham, but who do not as of yet believe in Jesus Christ as their Messiah
Quite pointedly, Paul wrote, "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God" (Romans 9:8). Thus Israel one, although it has a wonderful religious heritage, is made up largely of people who spiritually "are not the children of God." In the New Testament sense, "the children of God," applies only to those who have received Jesus Christ as Lord (see John 1:12). "The Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16), or Israel Two, refers to a composite group made up of both Jews and non-Jews who believe in the Crucified one, have died to self and been born-again (see verses 14,15). This group is called "the Israel of God" because it is God-centered, being made up of people who have a genuine experience with the Lord. Sadly, the majority of Middle East Israelis today don't fit this description (although Jesus is working among them and many are coming to a full faith in Him).
Writing to non-Jews, or Gentiles, Paul wrote, "And if you belong to Christ, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:28,29). Don't miss this, for it's of mega-importance. This passage teaches that a Gentile, if he "belongs to Christ," is mystically injected into "Abraham's seed," which according to Isaiah 41:8, is "Israel." In Galatians 6, Paul summarized his doctrine by saying that anyone, circumcised or uncircumcised, who becomes a "new creature" through faith in Jesus, is now part of "the Israel of God" (verses 14-16). They belong to Israel Two.
Here's the explosive question: Which group - Israel one or Israel Two - is Heaven's focus in the book of Revelation? Is it "Israel after the flesh," that is, modern Israel, with its present capital of Jerusalem? Millions of Bible prophecy- believing, conservative, politically active Christians think so. Left Behind's 11th book, Armageddon, says so. But what does Revelation really teach? The answer will not be discovered casually, but through a deep study of God's Word.
When we open Revelation's mysterious pages, we discover predictions about mount Zion (14:1), the twelve tribes of Israel (7:4-8), Jerusalem (21:10), the temple (11:19), Sodom and Egypt (11:8), Babylon (17:5), the Euphrates river (16:12), and Armageddon (16:16). Thus Revelation uses the terminology and geography of the Middle East in its prophecies.
But wait a minute. once again, here's the mega-question: Does God want these prophecies to be applied to those literal places in the Middle East and to "Israel after the flesh" centered in modern Jerusalem (Israel one)? Or might He rather intend for a spiritual application of these prophecies to "the Israel of God" centered in Jesus Christ (Israel Two), that is, to a spiritual Israel made up only of born-again Jews and Gentiles scattered around the world? Most theologians apply Revelation to Israel one and to literal Middle East locations, but is this right?
Let's start at the beginning of Revelation. The Bible's last book is ultimately, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 1:1). Jesus Christ is the Source, the Center, the Interpreter. In chapter one, John was "in the Spirit"- don't forget this - when he saw Jesus walking "in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks" (verses 10-13). The idea of "seven golden candlesticks" takes our minds back to the seven-branched candlestick inside the Jewish temple before it was destroyed in 70 A.D. by Roman armies. Yet in Revelation, "the seven golden candlesticks" are clearly symbolic.
What do they represent? Explaining "the mystery," the Interpreter declared, "the seven candlesticks which you saw are the seven churches" (Revelation 1:20). Thus, in Revelation's very first chapter - I'm going to call this "Exhibit A" for it reveals a truth I wish to develop - Jesus Christ took something extremely Jewish and used it symbolically to represent His Church. As we shall see, this is the key interpretive principle to understanding the entire book.
Enter Exhibit B. In Revelation 2, in a dictated letter to "the church in Thyatira" (verse 18), Jesus reproved His people for allowing "that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants…" (verse 20). Jezebel was a wicked woman in Old Testament days who entered Israel and caused problems. Was Jesus saying "Jezebel" had been reincarnated, or resurrected, or was literally teaching deception within Thyatira? Obviously not. A little reflection reveals that He used the word, "Jezebel," as a symbol of an evil movement that was affecting His Church. As with the seven golden candlesticks, God's Messiah took something from Jewish history and applied it to His Church, "the Israel of God."
Enter Exhibit C. In Revelation 3, the Heavenly Interpreter dictated another letter to "the church in Philadelphia" (verse 7) in which He said a Christian could become "a pillar in the temple of My God," and have a place "in the city of My God, which is New Jerusalem" (verse 12). Don't miss the significance of this. Not only did Jesus again use Jewish imagery - the temple - and apply it symbolically to His Church, but He also identified another city, "the New Jerusalem," as God's real city. And this city will not be a remodeled earthly Jerusalem with it's bullet holes covered and the blood of suicide bombers scrubbed away. This one "comes down out of heaven" (ibid.).
Remember, in Revelation's first chapter, John was "in the Spirit" (1:10) when he received his vision. In fact, throughout Revelation he was "in the Spirit" seeing different things (4:2; 17:3; 21:10). When one is "in the Spirit," he sees through Holy Spirit eyes instead of with flesh-vision eyes. Remember also, Paul described two Israels, one "after the flesh," and the other "in Christ." Again, the question is, Which Israel is the focus of "the Revelation of Jesus Christ"? When God's final prophetic masterpiece of the Apocalypse talks about "Israel" (7:4), "mount Zion" (14:1), "Jerusalem," (21:10), "the temple" (11:19), "Sodom and Egypt" (11:8), "Babylon" (17:5), "Euphrates" (16:12), and "Armageddon" (16:16), do these refer to literal, earthly, war-torn, fleshy places not too far from Iraq, south of Baghdad, west of Jordan, east of Tel- Aviv and north of Yasser Arafat's headquarters?
Enter Exhibit D. The fact is, every specific reference to "Jerusalem" in God's last book concerns a "New Jerusalem" (3:12; 21:2,10) which sits on a heavenly "great and high mountain [Mount Zion]" (21:10; 14:1), that houses "the temple of God … in heaven" (11:19; 15:5; 16:1,17) and is the final home a victorious "Israel" (7:4) which "follows the Lamb wherever He goes" (14:4,1). The enemy of God's "New Jerusalem" is a "great city" called "Mystery Babylon" (14:8; 17:5; 18:2) which "sits on [the] many waters" (17:1) of the "great river Euphrates" (16:12) until God's wrath finally demolishes it at "Armageddon" (16:16,19). What's happening here? A little reflection - combined with Holy Spirit enlightenment - shows that Revelation is ingeniously using the terminology and landscape of the Middle East in a unique, heavenly and spiritual sense.
Let's look closer at "the great river Euphrates." The Bible says, "And the sixth angel poured out his vial on the great river Euphrates; and it's water was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared" (Revelation 16:12). Those who interpret Revelation's Middle East terminology literally - such as in Left Behind's 11th book, Armageddon - usually apply this passage to Asian kings marching across a dry riverbed to shoot bullets at Jews at Armageddon. one well-known American radio preacher suggests a Turkish dam might be the means of drying up the river (2). Is this really what Revelation 16:12 is about?
In order to understand this incredible prophecy, we must first study some Bible history about ancient Israel and literal Babylon. In 605 B.C., "Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon" came "to Jerusalem, and besieged it" (Daniel 1:1). Jerusalem was conquered and Judah was taken captive for 70 years (Daniel 9:2). After 70 years, an amazing set of circumstances occurred. The Euphrates was dried up, Babylon was conquered from the east and God's people were delivered. This history forms the background for a true understanding of Revelation 16:12.
Ancient Babylon sat on the Euphrates (Jeremiah 51:63, 64). A wall surrounded the city. The Euphrates ran through Babylon, entering and exiting through two spiked gates whose bars reached down into the riverbed. When these twin gates were shut and all other entrances were closed, Babylon was virtually impregnable.
In 538 B.C., on the night of ancient Babylon's fall, her king and subjects were drunk with wine (see Daniel 5). So were the guards, and they forgot to fully close the double doors. Over 100 years earlier, God had predicted concerning Babylon and the Euphrates, "I will dry up your rivers" (Isaiah 44:27). The Lord also spoke about "Cyrus," the man who conquered Babylon, saying, "I will…open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut" (Isaiah 45:1). Moreover God called Cyrus "my shepherd" and "his anointed" (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1). Thus Cyrus was a type of Jesus Christ. And he came "from the east" (Isaiah 46:11)!
Housed in the British Museum in London lies the famous Cyrus Cylinder which describes how Cyrus, a general of Darius, conquered Babylon. Cyrus and his army dug trenches upstream alongside the river Euphrates which diverted the flowing water. The river gradually went down as it ran through Babylon. No one noticed. That night, at the height of Belshazzar's drunken party (see Daniel 5), the water became low enough for Cyrus and his men to stealthily slip under the double doors, which had been left open. Quickly they overran the doomed city, killing the king (Daniel 5:30), and conquering Babylon. Then Cyrus issued his famous decree to let Israel go (Ezra 1). The Jews were free. Ingeniously, "the Revelation of Jesus Christ" makes use of the dusty history of this ancient event and then applies it with stunning, apocalyptic force to another "Babylon," another "Israel," another "Euphrates," and another deliverance from "the east."
In the Old Testament, the battle was clearly between the literal nation of Israel and literal Babylon (Daniel 1). In Revelation, we also find a struggle between "Israel" and "Babylon" (7:4; 14:1,8). As you well know, the majority of prophecy teachers apply this, at least the "Israel" part of it, to literal Jews on the west bank. But let's be consistent. What about "Babylon"? Does this apply to a rebuilt city south of Baghdad? Some say yes. The evidence suggests otherwise.
In Revelation 17, a shiny angel beckoned to John: "Come here; I will show you the judgment of the great whore that sits upon many waters" (verse 1). "So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy … having a golden cup in her hand" (verses 3, 4). "And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Revelation 17:1, 3, 4, 5). John was "in the Spirit" (verse 3) when he received this prophecy. So we must be "in the Spirit" to interpret it correctly.
The woman's name is "Mystery Babylon." The word, "Mystery" is significant. In Revelation 1, the true Interpreter, Jesus Christ, used the same word as He applied the Jewish imagery of "seven golden candlesticks" to His Church. In Revelation 17, the same word is applied to the enemy of His Church, to "Mystery Babylon." And this greater "Babylon" has no application to the ancient city whose sun-cracked bricks are now whitening south of Baghdad.
In Old Testament days, literal Babylon sat on the literal river Euphrates. In "the Revelation of Jesus Christ," "Mystery Babylon" also "sits on many waters" (17:1), yet these waters don't refer to the literal murky Euphrates now trickling through modern Iraq. I'll prove it from one primary text. And this text is so explosively significant, it's like detonating a spiritual nuclear warhead against error. John's angel interpreter explained, "The waters which you saw, where the whore sits, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues" (Revelation 17:15, italics added).
According the angel interpreter, the "many waters" of Revelation's Euphrates represent "people" all over Planet Earth who now support "Mystery Babylon." They are "drunk with the wine of her fornication" (17:2). "Wine" is obviously symbolic, as is "her fornication." The "wine" stands for Babylon's false doctrines, while "her fornication" applies to her unlawful union with "the kings of the earth" (17:2).
"Mystery Babylon" is also "a woman" (17:3). A woman in prophecy represents a church. God likens His people to a "wife" that "has made herself ready" for "the marriage supper of the Lamb" (19:7,9). The Babylonian woman has also "fallen" (14:8). This must mean that "Mystery Babylon" in Revelation represents a globally supported church that has "fallen" away from her true lover, Jesus Christ, and from Bible truth. Yet God still has people inside of Babylon, whom He calls, "My people." Before the last act of history's drama, He calls them to "come out" (18:4). Why? Because the river Euphrates is destined to run dry.
"The sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up" (Revelation 16:12, italics added). Left Behind's Armageddon and countless other theologians apply this drying up of Euphrates to a literal drying so Asian armies can shoot bullets at the Jews at Armageddon. But what does the Bible say dries up the river? Turkey? No. The Word says, "the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates." This "vial" is one of the seven "vials of the wrath of God" (16:1). Thus, it is the wrath of God, not Turkey, that dries up the Euphrates! What does it mean? Brace yourself. If the "waters" represent "people," and if the vial of wrath falls on the water, then this means God's wrath will finally be poured upon people who steadfastly continue supporting Mystery Babylon.
When Heaven's judgments fall on the swirling waters of Babylon-supporting people, reality will be inescapable. They will realize they've been misled. Then they will "hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire." Revelation 17:16. Thus their misplaced support for a false system will vanish. This is how Babylon's water will dry up, preparing the way for "the kings of the east" (16:12).
In Old Testament days, Cyrus came from "the east" to conquer Babylon (Isaiah 44:26-28; 46:11). The word, "east," means "sun rising," and the name, "Cyrus," means, "sun." Cyrus came not to attack the Jews, but as their Deliverer, and again, Cyrus was a type of Jesus Christ, the "Sun of righteousness" (Malachi 4:2). In Revelation, God's angels come from the east (7:2), and Jesus Himself said, "As the lightning comes out of the east, and shines even to the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27, italics added). Therefore just as Cyrus came from the east to deliver literal Israel from the clutches of literal Babylon, even so will King Jesus descend from the eastern skies with "the armies which were in heaven" (19:14) to conquer spiritual Babylon and to deliver "the Israel of God" (Israel Two) at Armageddon!
What about "Armageddon"? Surprisingly, this exact word is used only once in the Bible, in Revelation 16:16. The Word says, "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue, Armageddon." Honestly, there is no literal "place" anywhere on Earth bearing this exact name. It's true, there is a valley north of Jerusalem which was called "Megiddo" (Judges 5:19) in Bible days. It was a place where the armies of Israel often met foreign enemies in bloody battles. Because "Megiddo," sounds like, "Armageddon," millions assume this same place will be the location of a final showdown against the Jews. But is this right?
"Armageddon" represents the apex, the climax, the final battle in Revelation. Will it be a military battle in the Middle East? Let's be consistent. Throughout Revelation we've seen Middle East terms like the "seven golden candlesticks," (1:20), "Jezebel" (2:20), "Mount Zion," (14:1), "Jerusalem," (3:12), "the temple" (11:19), "Sodom and Egypt" (11:8), "Euphrates" (16:12) and "Babylon" (17:5) used in a Christ-centered, heavenly, spiritual sense. When it comes to "Armageddon," which is a term depicting the grand finale in the greatest apocalyptic book ever written, does it make sense for God's last book to suddenly shift gears away from its thematic focus by pinpointing a literal, local, high tech, Middle East-based conflagration involving Russians, Chinese, Syrians, and literal Jews?
We don't have to guess. The answer is in the context surrounding Revelation 16:16. While it is outside the scope of this article to discuss the fascinating details, here are the main points:
The battle involves "the kings of the earth and of the whole world" (16:14), which could not possibly fit inside the valley of Megiddo. Revelation's focus is "the temple of heaven" (16:17), not a supposedly soon-to- be-rebuilt Jewish temple on earth. The affects of Armageddon are global, far beyond the Middle East (16:18-20). The primary system identified as being destroyed at Armageddon is spiritual "Babylon" (16:19), not Russia, China, or Syria. In essence, "Armageddon" depicts the final battle between King Jesus and His heavenly armies (19:11-19) against the worldwide forces of Satan referred to in the Apocalypse as "Mystery Babylon." At the Second Coming, the devil loses, and his global kingdom comes crashing down. Jesus doesn't need to nuke His foes, but only to use His "sharp two-edged sword" (1:16; 19:15) - which represents His Word of truth (Ephesians 6:17). When Christ descends from the east, He will deliver "Israel" from the clutches of "Babylon." But which Israel will He deliver? According to the thematic genius of the entire book of Revelation, it must be "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) centered in Jesus Christ whose home and dwelling place is the "New Jerusalem" (Revelation 21:10).
In conclusion, the Middle East remains a powder keg, our U.S. struggle against Muslim radicals like Osama bin Laden continues, and there's no earthly in sight. In the midst of such a "Red Alert" environment, millions of America's politically active Christians believe God Himself is not only behind modern Israel, but that He will finally annihilate the enemies of the Jewish State at Armageddon. Left Behind's Armageddon: The Cosmic Battle of the Ages proclaims this forcefully. Yet, as we have clearly seen, this doctrine is contrary to the New Testament. Beyond this, the teaching is actually harmful because it adds gasoline to an already raging Arab fire. An America at "War Against Terror" doesn't need this!
A careful study of "the Revelation of Jesus Christ" proves that Christianity's massive "God-Is-Behind-Modern-Israel" theology is just not true. Not that God doesn't love Modern Israel, the Israeli people, and Jewish people. But as we have seen, Revelation's focus is not on "Israel after the flesh" (Israel one), but on "the Israel of God" (Israel Two) composed of both Jews and non-Jews (including Arabs) centered in Jesus Christ. If there was ever a time we needed not only to "walk in the Spirit," but to interpret prophecy according to the Spirit, it's now.
Real peace can be found in only one place, and it's available to Jews, Muslim Palestinians, and Christians alike. It's found at the foot of the cross, in the heart of a Man who loves and died for the entire world. Let's surrender our lives to Him, so we can be part of His Israel of God.
For more information on this topic, read Steve Wohlberg's small book, Exploding the Israel Deception, his larger book, End Time Delusions, or purchase his audio/video series, Israel in Prophecy.
References:
See Prophecy and Politics: The Secret Alliance Between Israel and the US Christian Right, by Grace Halsell. Lawrence Hill & Co., (1989). Deliberate Deception: Facing the Facts about the US-Israeli Relationship, by Paul Findley, Lawrence Hill & Co., (1989). Israelis & Palestinians: What Went Wrong?, by Amos Elon. The New York Review of Books, Dec. 19, 2002 issue. Irvin Baxter Jr.'s, Endtime Magazine, Jan./Feb. 1998, p. 2.

Red Jones posted on 2006-07-28 9:56:22 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#116. To: noone222, Uncle Bill, Red Jones (#114)
Thank you for your replies. I skimmed them, but have not read them fully...yet.
The sons of Zarah were noted to be nearly as wise as Solomon, and actually wrote some of the Biblical Psalms.
Here are two verses that point to the sons of Zerah (Zarah/Zara)but you have to have to be looking for it because one verse uses the name Mahol and the other Zerah, but the sons names are identical, Zimri left off in the first verse.
1Ki 4:30 And Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country, and all the wisdom of Egypt.
1Ki 4:31 For he was wiser than all men; than "Ethan" the Ezrahite, and "Heman", and "Chalcol", and "Darda", the sons of Mahol: and his fame was in all nations round about.
1Ch 2:6 And the sons of Zerah; Zimri, and Ethan, and Heman, and Calcol, and Dara: five of them in all.
The name Dara is sometimes written as Darda or Dardanus. Darda founded Athens, Greece and Troy....
Yes, this is some of what I was reading. I can't explain why, but something about this makes my heart very heavy, almost to the point of crying, particularly when I think of all the horrible crimes and murders committed as a result. Maybe it is partly because I believe it is all based on a misperception about God and His plan for saving man, and partly because I think these rebels felt cheated and unloved, second-hand sons. That's why I get upset when anyone claims that God's Israel is all-white. I don't see peace ever coming if we hold that God loves one person more than another because of their skin-color. There really is not much difference between this and the Jews' claiming they are chosen because of THEIR race [albeit they are not Semites, at least not so much, but sons of Japheth.]
One of the Psalms you mentioned is Psalm 89. Reading it in the context of it being written by Zarah's family sheds a whole new light on it.
Note I 'bolded' the 'dan' in Dardanus. Whenever you see dan, don, din, dyn, dn, you might suspect the tribe of Dan. I think I am finding a very close connection between the two.

As for Darda founding Greece and Troy, it has been said also that the tribe of DAN founded them.
I don't have time to explain any more at the moment. This is a very interesting subject. I hope to get back to it soon. So much to do, and so little time.
Let me park this here, because I intend to make reference to it on another post:
Chapter CXXXIX.-The Blessings, and Also the Curse, Pronounced by Noah Were Prophecies of the Future.
"For another mystery was accomplished and predicted in the days of Noah, of which you are not aware. It is this: in the blessings wherewith Noah blessed his two sons, and in the curse pronounced on his son's son. For the Spirit of prophecy would not curse the son that had been by God blessed along with [his brothers]. But since the punishment of the sin would cleave to the whole descent of the son that mocked at his father's nakedness, he made the curse originate with his son.533 Now, in what he said, he foretold that the descendants of Shem would keep in retention the property and dwellings of Canaan: and again that the descendants of Japheth would take possession of the property of which Shem's descendants had dispossessed Canaan's descendants; and spoil the descendants of Shem, even as they plundered the sons of Canaan. And listen to the way in which it has so come to pass. For you, who have derived your lineage from Shem, invaded the territory of the sons of Canaan by the will of God; and you possessed it. And it is manifest that the sons of Japheth, having invaded you in turn by the judgment of God, have taken your land from you, and have possessed it. Thus it is written: `And Noah awoke from the wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him; and he said, Cursed be Canaan, the servant; a servant shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. May the Lord enlarge Japheth, and let him dwell in the houses of Shem; and let Canaan be his servant.'534 Accordingly, as two peoples were blessed,-those from Shem, and those from Japheth,-and as the offspring of Shem were decreed first to possess the dwellings of Canaan, and the offspring of Japheth were predicted as in turn receiving the same possessions, and to the two peoples there was the one people of Canaan handed over for servants; so Christ has come according to the power given Him from the Almighty Father, and summoning men to friendship, and blessing, and repentance, and dwelling together, has promised, as has already been proved, that there shall be a future possession for all the saints in this same land. And hence all men everywhere, whether bond or free, who believe in Christ, and recognise the truth in His own words and those of His prophets, know that they shall be with Him in that land, and inherit everlasting and incorruptible good. [note: I personally believe that the "old man" that Justin talked with who was looking for some of his household who had gone away from him was Jesus. see Ezekiel 34:11-13. As the "old man" conceded another argument over the animals, I believe he may have conceded on the point of THAT Israel being the home for the saints. I believe the true new land of Israel [New Jerusalem] has been cloaked in mystery, perhaps purposely by God, since it began as a mustard seed, in order to keep it from being attacked before it could withstand it].
Chapter CXL.-In Christ All are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They are Sons of Abraham.
"Hence also Jacob, as I remarked before, being himself a type of Christ, had married the two handmaids of his two free wives, and of them begat sons, for the purpose of indicating beforehand that Christ would receive even all those who amongst Japheth's race are descendants of Canaan, equally with the free, and would have the children fellow-heirs. And we are such; but you cannot comprehend this, because you cannot drink of the living fountain of God, but of broken cisterns which can hold no water, as the Scripture says.535 But they are cisterns broken, and holding no water, which your own teachers have digged, as the Scripture also expressly asserts, `teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.'536 And besides, they beguile themselves and you, supposing that the everlasting kingdom will be assuredly given to those of the dispersion who are of Abraham after the flesh, although they be sinners, and faithless, and disobedient towards God, which the Scriptures have proved is not the case. For if so, Isaiah would never have said this: `And unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we would have been like Sodom and Gomorrah.'537 And Ezekiel: `Even if Noah, and Jacob, and Daniel were to pray for sons or daughters, their request should not be granted.'538 But neither shall the father perish for the son, nor the son for the father; but every one for his own sin, and each shall be saved for his own righteousness.539 And again Isaiah says: `They shall look on the carcases540 of them that have transgressed: their worm shall not cease, and their fire shall not be quenched; and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh.'541 And our Lord, according to the will of Him that sent Him, who is the Father and Lord of all, would not have said, `They shall come from the east, and from the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness.'542 Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded,543 that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God's fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be....
Justin Martyr - Dialgogue With Trypho, a Jew
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm
The Ashkenazi probably had nothing to do with Moses or the Exodus from Egypt. However, the possibility that some members of the Khazarians were a rogue tribe of Israel does exist.

I believe that the Khazars CLAIMED that they were three of the tribes of Israel. Now note what God said:

Zec 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Zec/Zec011.html#8
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Zec/11/8.html
The abhorring seems to have to do particularly with idolatry:

Lev 26:1 ¶ Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God......

Lev 26:11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.....

[read all: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Lev/Lev026.html ].

Please see Judges 18, [ http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jdg/Jdg018.html ] where Jeroboam [of Ephraim] a Danite, and a son of Manasseh set up false worship. [there is a dispute about Gershom. He is said to be a son of Manasseh. Some think he is the son[grandson] of Moses, which would make him a Levite. God said He would not "cut off all the Levites.....but would take Gentiles also to be Levites".] I believe Judges 18 is the beginning of the NWO and terrorism and communism. I believe verse 19 is the beginning of secrecy, conspiracies, false religions, secret societies, the Kabbalah and the Talmud.

An ironic fact lies unnoticed in the Book of Daniel. The first chapter of that Book instructs us that a man named "ASHPENAZ" trained the Judahites taken captive in the ways of the Babylonians. [Those are the ways we are being forced into today]. Ashpenaz, according to my Zondervan dictionary of Biblical terminology says that name means "HORSE NOSE" !
LOL! Yes, you mentioned that before on another thread, or was it this one? I've lost track, and still have not read all of this thread. I found that interesting and looked it up in the concordance, at blueletterbible [I'm pretty sure that was where]. That is exactly what it said. Now, is that a reference to the "Jewish" nose, which is said to come from the Hittites? Or could it refer to Dan, here:
[Symbols of Israel]
http://asis.com/~stag/symbols.html
Ever notice the helmets of the old Greek and Roman warriors? Looks like the mane of a horse on top. Justin Martyr [a Greek] told the Romans, 'we are brethren, though you do not like to admit it.....' I don't think he meant it in a generic sense, but in a very physical sense. I'd have to look it up again to be sure.

Note that Dan and Ephraim are not listed BY NAME as being sealed in Rev. 7. Note our Great Seal. It has the symbols of Dan and Manasseh.
http://asis.com/~stag/symbols.html
Gen 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way Gen 49:17 ...that biteth the hores heels [look up entire verse]
I feel that is a LOADED passage, with more than one meaning. See the concordance for "biteth" [USURY], and "horse's heels" [rear flank of an army]. Lincoln made a statement that he had two enemies: the South [?} in front and the bankers in the rear, and he felt that the bankers were the bigger foe. Note that Dan's main symbol is THE EAGLE [see watch.pair.com Lost Tribe of Dan]. Note what I wrote about the "Jews", George Washington, Haim Solomon, and Rothschild and THE EAGLE over here: http://freedom4um.com/cgi- bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=30955&Disp=23#C23 .

more later.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-07-29 19:40:18 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#117. To: noone222, Red Jones, ItIsAlmosttoolate, robin, christine (#116)
Gen 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way Gen 49:17 ...that biteth the hores heels [look up entire verse]
I feel that is a LOADED passage, with more than one meaning. See the concordance for "biteth" [USURY], and "horse's heels" [rear flank of an army]. Lincoln made a statement that he had two enemies: the South [?} in front and the bankers in the rear, and he felt that the bankers were the bigger foe. Note that Dan's main symbol is THE EAGLE [see http://watch.pair.com Lost Tribe of Dan]. Note what I wrote about the "Jews", George Washington, Haim Solomon, and Rothschild and THE EAGLE over here: http://freedom4um.com/cgi- bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=30955&Disp=23#C23 .

Lots happening, and I can't explain it all yet. I am still trying to figure it all out.
I cannot retrieve the Lost Tribe of Dan by Janet Moser:
http://www.watch.pair.com/dan.html
Not Found
The requested URL /dan.html was not found on this server.
I don't know if http://watch.pair.com took it down, or WHAT. It has been one of my favorites for YEARS, and I referred to it quite often, learning something new each time. I brought it up just a couple of days ago.
I'd advise, if you are interested, to find other sites and make a copy. Blessedquietness has one, I think, minus the map.
I found one, and of course, by chance, look where it settled [note to myself: need to find if there is any relationship between Zorah and Zarah]:
1. Samson
And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren, and bare not. . .And the woman bare a son, and called his name Samson: and the child grew, and the LORD blessed him. Judges 13:2, 24
[I think the whole murdering escapade in Palestine and Lebanon reminds me of what could be called the Samson complex. If WE can't have Jerusalem, no one will.]
Zorah,The story begins thus:
Samson, a Nazarite of the tribe of Dan, judged Israel during the period of Philistine domination. At the feast celebrating his marriage to a Philistine woman, Samson proposed a riddle to the Philistines: "Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness." Judges 14:14 On the seventh day of the feast, the importunate bride extracted from Samson the interpretation of the riddle and related its meaning to her people, viz., that the carcass of a young lion which Samson had killed with his bare hands had attracted a swarm of bees who produced honey therein. Samson paid the wager by slaying thirty Philistines -- after which his wife was taken from him. Angered by their treachery, Samson avenged himself by slaughtering many more Philistines and eventually the Philistine lords.
Several obscure prophecies in the Bible point to the fact that the tribe of Dan will produce the Antichrist. In the context of these prophecies, Samson's riddle may be a prophecy that the descendants of the tribe of Dan will one day try to destroy the tribe of Judah in jealous revenge for God's judgment on their idolatry. From the carcass of the young lion [Judaism] the tribe of Dan [typified by the bees] will attempt to produce a golden age [symbolized by honey]. To suggest that the Antichrist will be a Jew is likely to incur accusations of "anti-Semitism" from those who would like to conceal this fact. However, we believe that the Biblical admonition to bless the descendants of Abraham includes exposing the identity of the man of sin who will lead many Jews to their destruction.
The Merovingians, who plan to rule the world from their future throne at Jerusalem, claim to come from the tribe of Judah through Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene. However, the weight of evidence indicates that they descended from the tribe of Dan. Although Scripture states that Samson was “of the family of the Danites” [Judges 13:2], Yair Davidy of Brit-Am Israel claims that his lineage includes the Messianic tribe of Judah: “Samson the superman hero came from the Tribe of Dan but his mother was from Judah. Samson, in some respects, was considered a forerunner of the Messiah who will come from Judah but his mother, according to the Midrash will be of the Tribe of Dan.” [Brit-Am Israel newsletter, 2/9/99]
It is through the agency of the ultra-Orthodox Lubavitch Movement that the Gentiles are being prepared to submit to the Noahide Laws under a restored Sanhedrin. Yair Davidy posits, “The name DAN means “judge” in Hebrew. Many lawyers and judges in the USA are of Irish descent of a particular type as is much of the police force . . . Descendants of Dan today appear to be concentrated in Ireland, Britain, the USA, and especially Denmark.” [Ibid.] Merovingians are also found leading pseudo-Christian organizations as many profiles in the Council for National Policy and Discernment Ministries reveal. These Merovingian agents actively promote the Hebrew Roots / Messianic Movement as the catalyst for Judaizing Christians.

The following paper is meant to serve as a study guide for understanding the enigmatic design of Satan to use the apostate tribe of Dan as an instrument and cover for a false messiah. The reader will be able to review the many Scriptures which concern the tribe of Dan -- the prophecies, the Danite people, their land, history, idolatry and symbols -- in conjunction with relevant information from other sources.....
It's long, but I'd almost like to post the entire thing for safekeeping [with or without the map], because I think it is that important.
I just looked up ZARAH:
See Zarah, Zerah. Greek form of Zarah; an ancestor of Jesus.[?????]. Strong's 2196.
Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar. Mt. 1:3.
Where in the Bible is it written that Zara is an ancestor of Jesus???
It is not, as far as I can see:
Matthew 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
That is Joseph's genealogy.
Mary's genealogy lists PHARES as Jesus' ancestor at Luke 3:33.
However there is a ZOROBABEL at Matthew 1:12-13 and Luke 3:27. Haven't had a chance to investigate that one, but my concordance says:
see ZeruBBable. Father of Abiud; ancestor of Jesus. Strong's 2216.
Zarah. See Zara, Zerah. A son of Judah. Gen. 38:30; Gen. 46:12. Strong's 2226.
2226 the same as 2225; Zerach, the name of three Isr., also of an IDUMEAN and an Ethiopian prince: -- Zarah, Zerah.
2225 zerach, from 2224; A RISING OF LIGHT: -- rising. [also know that Beth- Shemesh is "house of the rising". need to do search.]
2224. a prim. root; prop. to IRRADIATE (OR SHOOT FORTH BEAMS), i.e., TO RISE (AS THE SUN); spec. to appear (as leprosy). -- arise, rise (up), as soon as it is up. [could have a LOT of "fun" with this one, sun-worshippers, and illuminati that they are].

Please also see this:
"EVANGELICALS AND GLOBALISTS TOGETHER
Editor: Balaam's Ass Speaks-- Steve Van Nattan-- This title is deceptively mellow friends. The following article is possibly the most complete exposure I have seen of the Priory of Sion and its plans to rule the world spiritually and physically. The Ahos have done some very deep research into this matter which surpasses that of the LaRouche gang. La Rouche's people tried to deal with this, but being unsaved and self-serving, they failed to go to the depths in research. I will point out though that Queen Elizabeth and her close circle of powerful elitists are deeply involved in the following cult. It is now quite clear that these Royalists have tried to take charge of Christendom so they can hand it to the coming Michael whom they will worship. Sound strange and impossible? Read on please....."
http://www.freedomdomain.com/secretsocieties/evanglob.htm
['Late, this is why I think to say it is "ISRAEL" that is behind 911 and all the rest is way too simplistic. This is a neferaious antiChrist plot encompassing a lot of confederate groups, that has been going on for centuries. Please see Psalm 2. The enemies of Christ and His annointed are THE KINGS OF THE EARTH, RULERS, and JUDGES. The Royals claim to be Jews. The Presidents are related to them, as are the other monarchies. The Noahide Law plot is JUDICIAL. "Dan shall judge his people.....". There has also been a long-standing plot to take over this country by lawyers, something I read at a freedom site, which is PROBABLY why some earlier Congressman saw fit to pass the ORIGINAL [Missing] Thirteenth Amendment [do search barefootsworld.com], which mysteriously got lost in the shuffle of the contrived Civil War.]
I haven't tried to open the following one for fear of crashing. Wonder what it is all about:
Last Shout - not visible You are not authorized to view Shouts ...http://www.watch.pair.com/atlantis-rising.html [RISING](click to read full article) ... The connections to paganism, mormonism, the tribe of dan, something that ... http://www.nwowatcher. com/smf/index.php?topic=6066

I am working on some other related threads. I don't know how far I will get today before my computer crashes.
I don't have any concrete answers. I am still trying to piece it all together. Any help would be appreciated.
Red Jones, there are some interesting things in your last post above....

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2006-08-08 13:54:49 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
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