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Title: What Hit the Pentagon?
Source: 911review
URL Source: http://www.911review.com/attack/pentagon/hypothesis.html
Published: Sep 9, 2006
Author: 911 Review
Post Date: 2006-09-09 07:05:37 by Kamala
Ping List: *9-11*     Subscribe to *9-11*
Keywords: 911
Views: 23153
Comments: 172

What Hit the Pentagon?

Where the Pentagon was struck on 9/11/01 is indisputable and is strong circumstantial evidence that the attack was an inside job.

However, what hit it has remained controversial in some circles, given the refusal of authorities to produce definitive evidence to support the official story that American Airlines Flight 77 was the attack plane. With security camera video from nearby businesses having been seized minutes after the attack, and only five selected video frames released by the military, we are left with seemingly contradictory physical and eyewitness evidence.

Many eyewitnesses accounts describe a 757-like jetliner approach and collide with the Pentagon.

Photographs of the impact damage seem difficult to reconcile with the collision of a 757, since they show neither the imprint of such a plane on the facade nor large recognizable pieces of aircraft. These apparent contradictions stem partly from misconceptions about the physics of plane crashes. The contradictions vanish when one considers possible manipulations of a 757 crash, such as the destruction of portions of the plane just before impact. However, theories that nothing like a 757 crashed into the Pentagon have been so effectively popularized that mainstream media attacks on 9/11 skeptics frequently identify them as disputing only one aspect of the official story: that Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon.

The Missile and/or Global Hawk Theories Based on interpretations of the physical evidence -- in many cases based on fallacies -- several researchers have proposed theories that the damage to the Pentagon was caused by a missile, and/or a small lightweight remote-controlled plane, such as a Global Hawk. Variants of this theory became popular among skeptics of the official Flight 77 crash story in early 2002, despite their disregard for the eyewitness evidence that the plane seen approaching the Pentagon was a large twin-engine jetliner.

Much of the support for the missile and/or Global Hawk theories is drawn from the five frames of Pentagon video, despite their suspect source and signs of forgery.

The Two-Plane Theory

A second theory, also advanced in 2002, was researcher Dick Eastman's small plane theory (or two-plane theory). It holds that a Boeing 757 did indeed swoop down toward the west block of the Pentagon, but disappeared into a blinding pyrotechnic display, making it appear that it had crashed into the building, while in fact it had cleared the facade, overflown the Pentagon, and then banked sharply to land at Reagan National Airport, whose runways are only about two miles away from the Pentagon. As the jetliner was disappearing into the fireball, a small attack jet, such as an F-16, approached from a different trajectory and crashed into the wall, producing, in combination with a missile, the damage to the facade and interior.

This theory has the advantage over other no-757-crash theories that it is consistent with the many credible eyewitness reports of a jetliner. However, it neither explains the eyewitness statements that the plane collided with the building, nor the lack of a single eyewitness statement supporting the idea that a 757 overflew the Pentagon and then landed at the nearby National airport. Also, the theory raises questions about the fate of the passengers of Flight 77.

The 757 overflight theory is perhaps the weakest part of the two-plane theory. The Pentagon is surrounded by highways, and by densely populated areas such as Pentagon City to the south. Wouldn't a 757 overflying the Pentagon in a direction perpendicular to normal air traffic have been witnessed and reported by numerous individuals?

The Engineered Crash Theory

According to the above theories, no 757 crashed at the Pentagon on 9/11/01, despite the abundance of eyewitness reports of a large jetliner crashing. Some of these theories suggest that events were engineered to fool people into believing that Flight 77 had crashed. Some include elaborate stage-magic tricks, such as a drone painted like an American Airlines plane, and the use of motors and cables to pull down lamp poles.

Many no-757-crash theorists want us to believe that the attack was engineered to trick eyewitnesses into thinking a much smaller attack plane was a jetliner. But we can equally imagine that the attack was engineered to make the site of a 757 crash look to many observers like that of something else.

Eric Bart

French researcher Eric Bart proposed that the airliner was shredded by shape charges both before and after it entered the building. His theory accounts for the eyewitness near-consensus in favor of a 757-type jetliner crashing, for details in eyewitness statements not consistent with a simple crash, and for the pattern of damage to the Pentagon not explained by other theories.

e x c e r p t

title: Shaped charges

authors: Eric Bart

source

The shaped charges were ignited before the nose touched the wall. That's why some witnesses reported signs of an early impact, before the plane touched the wall :

"It seemed like it made impact just before the wedge" Joe Harrington

"I heard a sonic boom and then the impact" Joel Sucherman Other witnesses understood that the plane hit the ground before the wall :

"It didn't appear to crash into the building, most of the energy was dissipated in hitting the ground, I saw the nose break up, I saw the wings fly forward " Donald "Tim" Timmerman

"The fuselage hit the ground and blew up" Mary Ann Owens

"The nose of the plane curled upwards and crumpled before exploding into a massive fireball" Vin Narayan

But there was no mark of the plane on the ground. Other witnesses reported an impact on the building :

"The large aircraft struck the outermost corridor (E-ring) of the five-ring building at ground level (the second floor)"

Aviationnow

"The aircraft went in between the second and third floors." Lincoln Leibner Why did some witnesses thought [sic] that the plane hit the ground before the wall ? I see two reasons. First, the explosion of the charges created white flashes around the fuselage that seemed an early contact with the ground. Second, shaped charges in a plane have a recoil effect like powder in guns.

Their explosions should have push [sic] back the fuselage and slow it down, giving the impression that it hit something. It could also make the wings detached [sic] and fly forward because, unlike the fuselage, they were not slowed down, "I saw the wings fly forward".

The Penny Elgas statement : "At the point where the fuselage hit the wall, it seemed to simply melt into the building. I saw a smoke ring surround the fuselage as it made contact with the wall. It appeared as a smoke ring that encircled the fuselage at the point of contact and it seemed to be several feet thick. I later realized that it was probably the rubble of churning bits of the plane and concrete. The churning smoke ring started at the top of the fuselage and simultaneously wrapped down both the right and left sides of the fuselage to the underside, where the coiling rings crossed over each other and then coiled back up to the top. Then it started over again -- only this next time, I also saw fire, glowing fire in the smoke ring."

The analysis of this report is complex. However I'll try here.

First I believe Penny Elgas. Under adrenaline things go definetly slower. The report she gave is so unexpected that I don't think she made it up. It's just a pure factual report.

The interpretation she gave is false. : "the rubble of churning bits of the plane and concrete". The smoke moves are too perfect.

My speculation : The "churning smoke" is the white flash of inside charges. Penny Elgas saw the white flashes of these charges exploding in two overlapped and opposite helices.

There was not a single large shaped charge in the plane. I did not see any large shaped charge on the web. The best anti-bunker weapon (BLU-113) is only 1.2 foot large (diameter). Instead, there were many shaped charges (one feet diameter) inside the plane. Roughly, a one foot diameter will make a one foot hole. These charges were arranged in circle inside the fuselage and along the fuselage. Thus it was possible to make a large hit on the wall with small shaped charges. These charges were not fired all at the same time (probably to be more silent or for having a "hammering" effect on concrete). So what is the best sequence for igniting all theses charges ?

Maybe things are simpler then I first thought. All the plane (fuselage and wings) is laid on a rigid structure. This means that the bottom of the fuselage is strong and the top is fragile. So, when a charge explode near the bottom of the fuselage, it destroys the stiffness of it.

I think that the charges where put in two overlapped and opposite helices (clockwise and counter clockwise). The explosion started at the top front of the fuselage, continued downward and backward on each side, joined at the bottom and continued upward and backward, and so on ..., as Penny saw.

When explosions occure at the bottom, the plane fuselage stiffness is damaged. Thus, next charges to explode are less strongly tied to the fuselage. The further they are from the bottom, the more difficult it is to tie them strongly to the fuselage. Thus, next charges have to be attached close to the bottom. That's why I think it continued upward (and backward) on each side of the fuselage, because next charges can't be mechanically attached far form the bottom.

"Then it started over again -- only this next time, I also saw fire, glowing fire in the smoke ring." The glowing fire is the fireball itself that comes after the white flash.

site: eric.bart.free.fr/iwpb/ page: eric.bart.free.fr/iwpb/inv2.html

Bart theorizes only about the use of shaped charges in the destruction of the plane. However, it is possible to imagine other types of weapons may have produced a similar result. If these weapons were ground-based rather than installed in the plane, it would be easier to imagine that the event involved Flight 77, since the perpetrators would not have required physical access to the plane to prepare the attack.

The Remote-Controlled 757 Theory The simplest theory that answers questions about the piloting skill required by the approach maneuver and the location of the strike is the remote-controlled 757 theory, in which an American Airlines 757, perhaps Flight 77, is flown by remote control into the Pentagon. The engineered crash theory is a subset of the remote-controlled 757 theory.

Its added element of explosives or other weapons destroying portions of the aircraft prior to impact helps to reconcile the crash of a 757 with the crash impact damage shown in photographs, but this element is consistently targeted by critics defending no-757-crash theories. Researcher Mark Robinowitz, webmaster of oilempire.us, has suggested that speculation about crash engineering, like that about exactly what hit the Pentagon, has served as a distraction from the provable fact of where the building was hit and its implications. On The Pentagon attack: How the 'no plane' theories are used to discredit 9/11 skepticism and distract from proven evidence of complicity he provides evidence that the the no-757-crash theories may be rooted in a false-flag psy-op to discredit skepticism of the official story.

page last modified: 2006-08-18

Copyright 2004 - http://2006,911Review.com / revision 1.023;site last modified: 9/4/06

Dick Eastman showed that the one piece of debris on the Pentagon lawn large enough to stand up fit the forward right side of an American Airlines' 757-200. The relative isolation of this piece, and it's position relative to the plane's path, suggests that it may have been moved. There are a number of possible reasons that it could have been moved. Subscribe to *9-11*

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#1. To: Kamala (#0)

Dick Eastman showed that the one piece of debris on the Pentagon lawn large enough to stand up fit the forward right side of an American Airlines' 757-200. The relative isolation of this piece, and it's position relative to the plane's path, suggests that it may have been moved. There are a number of possible reasons that it could have been moved.

I believe that the piece of debris was put there during the night ( wee hour of the morning ) and that a cruise missle was the culprit for the damage to the pentagon.

Watch the video 'In Plane Sight' produced by Dave Vonklienst who is host of the Power Hour. His video is simply made up of the immages 'WE' saw during the television coverages on 9-11.

The grass was still pristine, the three floors on the left showed no damage to a computer and its paper, and an open book on a stool was not burned. The roof hadn't collapsed for hours afterword, and the hole was approximately 16 feet in diameter. Hardly big enough to be made by a large airplane.

I pity all the fools who have bought into the official government theory. According to the official theory, the fire from all the jet fuel was so hot that it completely disintegrated every single part of that very large airplane and yet leaves the plastic computer and the open book untouched.

Believe what you want, but if you believe the official version, have been had. The bonus material on this video shows the deception of our wonderful present guvment. The bombing of the Murrah building shows very much their deception. Two local TV stations in Okahoma City broadcast that there were larger bombs found inside that didn't go off according to their plan, both larger that the so called culprit bomb in the truck outside. This info came from the bomb squard working at the Murrah Building, telecast once and disappeared from the airwaves for good. I guess it was too much for the American Citizens to see and hear again. Maybe the govment blocked its showing again in the name of national security.

WE HAVE BEEN HAD FOLKS by the insiders who pulled off the shenanigans on 9-11. Those that side and believe the government baloney are siding with the terroriss!!!!

LACUMO  posted on  2006-09-09   11:44:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Kamala (#0)

Many eyewitnesses accounts describe a 757-like jetliner approach and collide with the Pentagon.

Twenty five identified it as an AA jet. Forty five saw the same thing but could not identify what airline.

Sixty four people aboard AA77 WERE removed from the pentagon.

They arrived aboard AA77.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   11:48:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Cynicom (#2)

Twenty five identified it as an AA jet. Forty five saw the same thing but could not identify what airline.

Sixty four people aboard AA77 WERE removed from the pentagon.

I wish we had the names of these witnesses.

I have never seen any kind of forensics or other autopsy reports of any kind, or even references to them in any news story or any other place, concerning these supposed victims. Strange, I say, that there were absolutely no bodies found on the outside of the Pentagon. Strange, indeed.

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-09   12:04:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Kamala (#0)

Every night I thank God I am not a deluded conspiracy nutcase.

"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities also has the power to make you commit atrocities." — Voltaire (1694-1778)

YertleTurtle  posted on  2006-09-09   12:15:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: YertleTurtle (#4)

"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities also has the power to make you commit atrocities." — Voltaire (1694-1778)

Voltaire was once jailed for smiling at the wrong time at some political speech.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   12:18:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: BTP Holdings (#3)

I wish we had the names of these witnesses.

They are available on the internet along with their statements.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   12:20:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Cynicom (#5)

Voltaire was once jailed for smiling at the wrong time at some political speech.

They made political speeches in monarchist France?

Katrina was America's Chernobyl.

aristeides  posted on  2006-09-09   12:30:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: aristeides (#7)

They made political speeches in monarchist France?

I seem to recall it was in Spain and he was present at some gathering listening to profound statements by some person in power.

I also recall there was someone with him, someone of note. Prolly read that nearly 60 hears ago. The fact he was jailed for smiling always stuck with me.

Sounds like something we may soon endure here.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   12:36:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Cynicom, all (#8) (Edited)

Cyni, you raise lots of solid questions, questions I personally have no answer for. The unanswered questions keep me digging. On the flip side, we who question the government version score valid points when we follow the money. The put options on American Airlines strongly suggest prior knowledge of the event. And how Larry Silverstien is in a position to collect more than $7 billion in insurance money, after having invested $125 million of other people's money, money that was returned to the principles by the port authority after the collapse is astounding. Silverstein, incidentally, purchased the lease to the WTC in July '01, just six weeks before 911. Talk about deals. Then there is that pesky issue of the collapse of 7 World Trade. What is that about? And wasn’t Silverstein recorded saying that the building should be “pulled”? I don’t trust the people in front of this mess, or the ones who benefited from it.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-09-09   13:21:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Jethro Tull (#9)

I personally have no answer for.

Jethro...

Was 911 orchestrated by our government or whomever??? I dont know, have not a clue.

Did AA77 crash into the Pentagon??? Yes, it certainly did, with 64 souls aboard.

From your years, you know of a "chain of custody", well, those souls never left custody of AA and FAA, therfore they arrived and died at the Penatagon.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   13:25:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Cynicom (#10) (Edited)

Cyni, I haven't a clue what hit the Pentagon. The entry damage, lack of videos (I understand more than 70 exist), the miniscule amount of physical evidence at the scene, and the skill level required by the amateur pilot all leaves me scratching my head as to what happened. Personally, I’ve enjoyed following the money more. What I mentioned about Silverstein, et al, isn’t conjecture.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-09-09   13:54:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Jethro Tull (#11)

I’ve enjoyed following the money more.

What money?

buckeroo  posted on  2006-09-09   14:20:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Cynicom (#10)

Did AA77 crash into the Pentagon??? Yes, it certainly did, with 64 souls aboard.

Geez, you say that with certainty as though it is a fact. May I direct you to a thread with a differing perspective:

THE PENTAGON ATTACK PAPERS: Seven Hours in September: The Clock that Broke the Lie

http://freedom4um.com/cgi- bin/readart.cgi? bm=1&ArtNum=33832&Disp=20&Trace=&SC=0&EC=40&Range=20

angle  posted on  2006-09-09   14:31:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: angle (#13)

Geez, you say that with certainty as though it is a fact

Angle...

Sixty four souls arrived there in the aircraft.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   14:47:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Jethro Tull (#11)

Cyni, I haven't a clue what hit the Pentagon.

Jethro...

AA 77 hit the Pentagon, just as nearly 100 eyewitnesses said, just as attested to by 64 souls found there.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   14:52:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Cynicom (#14)

Sixty four souls arrived there in the aircraft.

Back it up with a link.

angle  posted on  2006-09-09   14:55:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: angle (#16)

Back it up with a link.

Link?

Already you seem not willing to accept the word of 100 eyewitnesses, of what value would be a link to anything????

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   15:18:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Cynicom (#17)

Link? Already you seem not willing to accept the word of 100 eyewitnesses, of what value would be a link to anything????

25 Ways to Supress Truth

#8. Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and present your argument with enough 'jargon' and 'minutia' to illustrate you are 'one who knows', and simply say it isn't so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources

angle  posted on  2006-09-09   16:56:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: angle (#18)

#8. Invoke authority.

From recall, I do not believe any of the 25 witnesses that identified the aircraft as AA worked for or had any connection to any government agency.

Thus we have 25 people with no agenda that we discount as, liars, story tellers,or paid lackeys of someone.

The next 45 witnesses saw the jet but not the identity of the airline. We are nearing 100 people that are at once suspect.

In five years, not one of the many witnesses has come forward and said I was paid or forced to lie, not one. Nor have any family members of the victims had bodies exhumed to perform their own tests, not one. Very difficult to really accept that these numerous people are all in on "something".

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   17:11:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: angle (#18)

Link?

http://www.geocities.com/someguyyoudontknow33/witnesses.htm

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   17:15:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Cynicom (#6)

    I wish we had the names of these witnesses.

They are available on the internet along with their statements.

Actually, I could care less about the witnesses, many of whom could have been plants set out in advance to tell the right story. It's in the name of national security, doncha know.

What about the bodies that were taken away? Were they matched with the passengers? Was there a DNA match? And what about remains of the so-called hijackers? The gooberment has already claimed that there was DNA matches and I find that completely unbelievable. Should we think for one minute that the FBI had DNA of these suspects on file? I doubt it. That is just another laughable portion of the "offical story" and I'm suprised you might bite on it, quite simply because the story itself bites.

BTW, I have the offical flight manifest in front of me right now and I count a total of 54 passengers and crew, not 64. And what of any Pentagon casualties? You have not given us that figure here and I'm sure it was more than 10.

Cyni, I think you are blowing smoke on this one. You had better get your facts straight.

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-09   17:20:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Jethro Tull, angle, Kamala (#21) (Edited)

PING!

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-09   17:22:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Cynicom (#19)

Cyni, wasn't it you who was questioning the credibility of eyewitnesses in relation to the WTC towers (William Rodriquez and many, many more) yet you're not with the Pentagon? You can't have it both ways. As you stated, phyical evidence is far more reliable than is the testimony of eyewitnesses. Now, I've read that there were no bodies recovered from the Pentagon that were proven to be from a jetliner. I've also read (and seen photographs) that there was no luggage, no plane seats, no plane parts matching that of a 757. That's just a smidgen. There is so much more physical evidence that it could not have been Flight 77 than evidence that it was.

christine  posted on  2006-09-09   17:49:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Cynicom, Yertle Turtle (#19)

With security camera video from nearby businesses having been seized minutes after the attack, and only five selected video frames released by the military

Why?

christine  posted on  2006-09-09   17:55:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: All (#24)

how could 64 identifiable bodies have been recovered and DNA'ed from the Pentagon when the whole plane (according to them) disintegrated?

christine  posted on  2006-09-09   18:05:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: christine (#25)

how could 64 identifiable bodies have been recovered and DNA'ed from the Pentagon when the whole plane (according to them) disintegrated?

Excellent question.

~~

jessejane  posted on  2006-09-09   18:15:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: christine (#25)

how could 64 identifiable bodies have been recovered and DNA'ed from the Pentagon when the whole plane (according to them) disintegrated?

Don't be using your brain here. :-)

Lod  posted on  2006-09-09   18:28:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: BTP Holdings (#21)

That was very well said and kind as well.

angle  posted on  2006-09-09   19:23:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: jessejane (#26)

I want to apologize for my tone on the other thread. I wanted to make a point and I let it get the better of me. I'm sorry.

angle  posted on  2006-09-09   19:24:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: angle (#29)

want to apologize for my tone on the other thread. I wanted to make a point and I let it get the better of me. I'm sorry.

That is very kind of you angle. Apology accepted. I too apologize if my directness was offensive.. Now, let's be friends who can honestly agree or disagree! A blessing it is, for that privilege! :)

~~

jessejane  posted on  2006-09-09   19:31:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: jessejane (#30)

Thank you jessejane.

angle  posted on  2006-09-09   19:35:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: BTP Holdings (#21)

Actually, I could care less about the witnesses,

If the "witnesses" are unbeleivable, how do we account for the families of the victims not being in the vanguard of not having AA77 at the Pentagon????

Surely you do not feel they are also complicit????

Remember now, many members of the families SAW the victims board and depart that very morning from Dulles. Are we to disregard them also as being part of the scheme???

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   19:40:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: angle (#31)

:)

~~

jessejane  posted on  2006-09-09   19:46:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Cynicom (#2)

Cyni. As of 9/23 no bodies on AA77 had been recoved. Yet people went ahead with funeral services based on what they believed to be true, as told by the government. That is full blown sheeple mode, IMVHO.

Three women killed on Flight 77 remembered.(A) (Metropolitan)(Virginia)


The Washington Times; 9/23/2001; Cella, Matthew

Byline: Matthew Cella

David Yancey's eyes lingered on the American flag neatly folded into a triangle and placed in his hands by a Navy honor guard. The flag commemorates the loss of his wife, Vicki, who was on board American Airlines Flight 77 on Sept 11.

More than 100 people ringed the courtyard outside St. Bernadette Catholic Church in Springfield yesterday, a little more than 10 miles from where terrorists crashed the hijacked plane into the Pentagon, killing 189 persons, including all 64 on the airliner.

In Virginia yesterday, memorial services were held on church altars with no caskets for three of those on board Flight 77 whose bodies have yet to be recovered.

"She wasn't even supposed to be on the . . . thing," Bruce Belcher, a family friend of the Yanceys, said at the service.

He described how Mrs. Yancey, 43, an employee of defense contractor Vredenburg, was bound for a business convention in Reno, Nev. The mother of two had been bumped from an earlier flight and was escorted to the gate by ticket agents just minutes before takeoff. Mr. Belcher said it took officials several hour to confirm that she had been on the plane because she wasn't listed in the original passenger manifest.

Mr. Belcher speculated that Mrs. Yancey might have been the last person to board the doomed flight.

"She only traveled once every year or two," he said, adding that she was excited about the trip.

In the lobby of the church, amid flower bouquets decorated with red, white and blue ribbons, a framed display of 17 snapshots chronicled Mrs. Yancey's life, from her stint as an electrical technician in the Navy through to the birth of her two daughters, Michelle, 18, and Carolyn, 15.

The two young women stood hand in hand with their father as the American flag, flying at half-staff in the courtyard, was raised, then lowered, and finally presented to Mr. Yancey.

Father John Hughes eulogized Mrs. Yancey as a woman who loved life, politics and, most of all, her children. But from the pulpit also came a call for justice.

"`Whether we bring our enemies to justice, or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done,'" Father Hughes said, quoting President Bush's address to the nation on Thursday. "It is important and necessary that these people, these terrorists, be brought to justice."

As the church choir sang "America the Beautiful," guests filed out, their eyes welled with tears, to the courtyard, where a lone Navy bugler played taps.

Nine miles away in Alexandria, at the Blessed Sacrament Catholic Community, a separate service honored the life of Norma Steuerle, 54, a clinical psychologist and mother of two daughters who was on Flight 77 to Los Angeles as the first leg of a trip to Thailand - a lifelong dream.

Hundreds crowded the church, many of them standing in the rear, to hear friends and relatives remember Mrs. Steuerle. They described her as a vivacious woman of keen intellect and deep religious conviction, generous with time and money.

"She had a zest for life," longtime friend Arthur McNeill said afterward. "They were a family of four that were totally in love with each other."

"She had a way of translating complicated ideas into words anyone, even children, could understand," one friend said. Another described Mrs. Steuerle's frequent trips from the office for coffee in an adored green Mazda Miata.

Mrs. Steuerle's eldest daughter, Kristin, 28, a Navy physician, spoke of her mother's "untiring love" and issued a call for peace, even for those suspected of plotting the attacks.

"I hope that in Mom's honor we can turn away from hatred, anger and violence," she said. She and her sister, Lynne, linked arms with their father, Eugene Steuerle, as they left the church together.

A private service also was held yesterday at St. Mary's Episcopal Church in Arlington to honor Mary Jane Booth, 64, who worked at the Washington Dulles International Airport. A 45-year employee of American Airlines, Mrs. Booth was secretary to the airlines' general manager at Dulles airport for more than 30 years.

Mrs. Booth was on her way to a Las Vegas meeting of the employees' credit union on board Flight 77.

CAPTION(S):

Photos (A, color), A) David Yancey is flanked by daughters Michelle and Carolyn after a service at St. Bernadette Church in Springfield. It memorialized Vicky Yancey, a former Navy officer, who was aboard American Airlines Flight 77 when it crashed into the Pentagon Sept. 11. (WILD ART, A1); B) Tom Schafer directed members of St. Bernadette's choir in a practice session yesterday. The choir later sang at St. Bernadette Church in Springfield in a service for Vickie Yancey, who was on the ill-fated American Airlines Flight 77., Both By Rod A. Lamkey Jr./The Washington Times

COPYRIGHT 2001 News World Communications, Inc.

This material is published under license from the publisher through the Gale Group, Farmington Hills, Michigan.  All inquiries regarding rights should be directed to the Gale Group.

****

*****

MOURNERS REMEMBER FLIGHT 77 VICTIM OLSON

United Press International; 9/15/2001

United Press International

09-15-2001

Mourners remember Flight 77 victim Olson

ARLINGTON, Va., Sep 15, 2001 (United Press International via COMTEX) -- Some 1,250 friends and relatives gathered Saturday to remember and mourn Barbara Olson, a television political commentator, author and lawyer who was aboard American Airlines Flight 77 when the hijacked jet plowed into the Pentagon.

"This indeed is a sad occasion, one to be repeated thousands of times, by too many of our fellow citizens," Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, a friend of Olson's, said in a eulogy at the Cathedral of St. Thomas More in Arlington, Va.

Olson, 45, was also the wife of Theodore "Ted" Olson, who, as solicitor general in the Bush administration argues the government's cases before the Supreme Court.

She was among 64 people on the flight when it was hijacked and flown into the Pentagon on Tuesday. Officials said 125 people were missing and feared dead in the building.

The crash was one of four involving hijacked planes on Tuesday. Two other planes were hijacked and flown into the World Trade Center towers, which collapsed. A fourth plane crashed in Pennsylvania. Officials said 266 people died aboard the planes, while at the trade center 4,972 were reported missing and 185 were confirmed dead.

Like most of the victims, Olson's body had not yet been found.

- Snip

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-09-09   19:51:24 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: christine (#23)

Cyni, wasn't it you who was questioning the credibility of eyewitnesses in relation to the WTC towers

Credibility...the quality of being believable or trustworthy.

The college "test" remains true...Recall, of about 100 witnesses, only 25 said it was an AA aircraft, 45 said they did not know, yet they saw the same thing, the same event. There were many other witnesses that were not "credible", that is some part of their testimony was so absurd that ALL of it had to be discounted.

The college test "shooter" may have had hair, whether it was blonde, black or red for some "witnesses" did not prove them not credible if they had everything else correct.

Of the 25 that saw AA markings, many of them may be actually incorrect and saw it after the fact.

In any legal trial, the jury has to decide what witnesses are the most "credible". The same applies here also.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   19:55:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Jethro Tull (#34)

~marking this post~

I missed this information somehow in earlier reading. Thanks for posting it JT.

~~

jessejane  posted on  2006-09-09   19:58:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: christine (#24)

With security camera video from nearby businesses having been seized minutes after the attack, and only five selected video frames released by the military

That is something I have no knowledge about and in no way changes the fact that the passengers were found at the crash.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   19:59:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Cynicom (#37)

no way changes the fact that the passengers were found at the crash.

Cyn, Bodies were found. Their ID was determined elsewhere. Window of opportunity.

~~

jessejane  posted on  2006-09-09   20:14:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: jessejane (#38)

Cyn, Bodies were found. Their ID was determined elsewhere. Window of opportunity.

No.

I believe something like 180 parts of human remains were found. ALL of the passengers were identified by DNA and OTHER means. There were remains found that could not be identified, five in fact, the number of hi-jackers.

There were dozens of pathologists, dentists etc etc that took three weeks to complete their work.

Any attempt to make them complicit in or unaware of any "coverup" would be ludicrous to the extreme. These people were highly trained professionals and to believe every one of them was involved is just too much.

They completed their work in about three weeks, overview of that work is available on the net by some of the participants for those that care to read.

Doctor Andrew Baker gives a very good presentation.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   20:25:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Cynicom, JJ, cristine, ALL (#39) (Edited)

At 10:09 a.m. there was a secondary explosion, which rocked the entire parking lot area. Fire officials speculated it was caused by additional explosives in the aircraft.

PLANE CRASHES INTO PENTAGON IN TERROR ATTACK

United Press International; 9/12/2001

United Press International

09-12-2001

Plane crashes into Pentagon in terror attack

WASHINGTON, Sep 11, 2001 (United Press International via COMTEX) -- The nation's top military officer declared Tuesday that the military is ready to take action against the terrorists that planned and carried out a series of attacks on the United States, including one on the Pentagon that collapsed part of its west wall, killed dozens and left the building in flames.

"I have no interest in discussing what comes next. But make no mistake about it: your armed forces are ready," said Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Henry Shelton at a Pentagon news conference Tuesday.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, flanked by Shelton, two senators and the secretary of the Army, declared the Pentagon open for business Wednesday.

"The Pentagon is functioning. It will be in business tomorrow," Rumsfeld said at a hastily called news conference at the Defense Department headquarters, its hallway still filled with acrid smoke.

"There is no question but that the attack on the United States of America was a vicious well coordinated massive attack against the United States," he said.

A U.S. senior defense official said that Rumsfeld spoke with Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov but could offer nothing as far as intelligence help.

Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin, D-Mich., declared the Congress unified behind President Bush.

"Our institution is strong and our unity is palpable," Levin said.

Levin said the United States would "track down, root out and relentlessly pursue terrorists and the states who support them."

Virginia Republican Sen. John Warner called the attacks in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania "the most tragic hour in American history."

"We call upon the entire world to step up and help because terrorism is a common enemy to all," Warner said, asking other nations to "step forward and let us hold accountable and punish" the perpetrators.

Rumsfeld said he and the senators had just spoken to the president and that he had a "firm grip on the situation."

He would not specify the number of dead and injured at the Pentagon, and neither would he say whether the Pentagon had any intelligence that warned of the attack.

The Defense Department sent several buses to an ad hoc press center at a gas station near the Pentagon to retrieve dozens of reporters gathered there for the news conference, held at a podium in front of a plaque of the building -- a clear demonstration that while the building was hobbled, it was not cowed by the attack.

Rumsfeld was in his office at the time of the attack and felt the shock wave rumble through the building. He went out to see the damage and saw people being hauled out of the wreckage.

"I saw (them) bring bodies out that had been injured, most of which were alive and moving, but injured," he said.

A hijacked civilian airliner crashed into the building's west side, between the first and second floors. The impact collapsed five floors of a roughly fifty- foot section, three hallways deep into the building.

The Pentagon is comprised of five concentric "rings", criss-crossed by hallways and numbered corridors. The impact occurred near the fourth corridor, and went through the outer "E" ring into the "C" ring, stopping short of the two inner rings, sending up a massive fireball. Pieces of the plane were scattered on a web of commuter roads that ring the Pentagon.

Rumsfeld confirmed that U.S. Air Force aircraft have been flying "protective missions over parts of the United States today and they will continue to do that."

Earlier in the day, an American Airlines aircraft struck the west side of the Pentagon about 9:39 a.m., according to Arlington County, Va., fire officials and eyewitnesses at the scene, part of an apparent series of terrorist attacks against the United States.

The plane's nose drove into the wall of the building about the second story near the Pentagon's Heliport. Part of the building collapsed and plumes of smoke were visible for miles around.

"The plane is buried down in the building," said Gov. James Gilmore, R-Va., who toured the devastation. He said the plane flew directly into (the Pentagon) between the first and second floor."

Gilmore added: "There're obviously very major (casualties). Not just in New York but here as well."

A Pentagon spokesman said all employees should call the following numbers to sign into a "muster list," which will help determine the number of casualties and who is missing.

Members of the Army can call 1-800-984-8523, or 703-428-0002. Navy and Marine Corps personnel should call 1-877-663-6772, and members of the Air Force can call 1-800-253-9276.

The crash came less than an hour after two hijacked planes crashed into the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York, and shortly before the center collapsed entirely.

At 10:09 a.m. there was a secondary explosion, which rocked the entire parking lot area. Fire officials speculated it was caused by additional explosives in the aircraft.

Defense Protective Service chief John Jester told United Press International "Our first goal is to knock down the fire," adding that -- six hours after the crash -- small flames continued to lick at the roof of the building. "Then the search-and-rescue team can go in and see what we find inside."

No official count of casualties was available, but it seems certain that all of the 58 passengers and six crew members on American Airlines flight 77 out of Dulles bound for LAX were dead.

Military officials on the scene said they had heard there were at least six fatalities in the building and medical personnel at the scene told UPI that there were up to 36 injured being treated at area hospitals. Two women with glass cuts on their legs were being treated at the scene.

The Virginia Hospital Center Arlington said it had received 31 injured people by late afternoon Tuesday. Of those, six were treated and released and 15 were admitted for further treatment. The other 10 patients were being evaluated.

At the time of the attack, the Defense Department was fully staffed -- thousands of military and civilian personnel work there.

The explosion sent plumes of gray, black smoke 200 feet into the air and the entire west side of the Pentagon facing Arlington Cemetery was blackened by the blast. Cars on the nearby Route 27 toward Washington were thrown off the road by the force of the detonation.

A section of the building 50 feet wide and five stories high collapsed, allowing a view of the Pentagon's inner courtyard.

Tim Timmerman, a pilot who saw the impact from his apartment on the 16th floor of a building near the Pentagon, told CNN that a jet bearing American Airlines markings with its engines gunning came North, above route 395, before accelerating and crashing into the helipad immediately adjacent to the West side of the building. Shortly afterwards, he said, the whole area was engulfed in flames.

Tori Clarke, Pentagon spokeswoman, said Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was in the building at the time of the crash and remains there directing the Pentagon's efforts, in consultation with President Bush and the national security staff.

Clarke said Rumsfeld was in his office, and felt the concussion of the collision. He went outside the building where he "helped get some people on to stretchers and into ambulances," she said.

The site of the crash and explosion was on the opposite side of the building from the offices of the Secretary of Defense and the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Pentagon spokesman Rear Adm. Craig Quigley said all of the service chiefs and secretaries and the chairman and vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff are accounted for.

He said the U.S. military worldwide was at threat condition Delta -- the highest level of alert, called when there is an imminent threat or a terrorist attack.

Thousands of military and civilian employees were evacuated from the Pentagon on foot. The evacuation was orderly and many of the employees gathered around the scene.

At 10:23 a.m., police and fire officials evacuated an area about 3,000 yards further away from the building on all sides after a warning that a second aircraft might be on its way.

Pentagon officials said a casualty center was being established on nearby Fort Myer Army Base in Arlington, Va., and a press center was also expected to be set up there Tuesday evening.

By NICHOLAS M. HORROCK and PAMELA HESS

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-09-09   20:43:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Cynicom (#39)

I wouldn't trust an eyewitness testimony on either side of the debate. The camera doesn't confuse the mind under traumatic events. The last canard was the video footage was being withheld because of the Moussoui trial. Well, the patsy's convicted, and I assume the videos have long been destroyed.

“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"

Eoghan  posted on  2006-09-09   20:50:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Eoghan (#41)

I wouldn't trust an eyewitness testimony on either side of the debate.

We still have to account for the human remains.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   20:53:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Cynicom (#39)

Cyn, I am not accusing those people of being complicit in the least. They may certainly have conducted those tests on the 'passengers' for a positive ID. I am not questioning their work or qualifications. Is there some evidence that the parts came from the Pentagon? Or were they simply identified as passengers on that flight?

~~

jessejane  posted on  2006-09-09   20:57:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Cynicom (#42)

The only bonefide remains that are undeniable fact are dead Pentagon personel.

This flash presentation has stood up very well.

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm

“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"

Eoghan  posted on  2006-09-09   20:58:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: jessejane (#43)

Or were they simply identified as passengers on that flight?

There is a chain of custody....

Human remains from such events are not gathered and catalogued by untrained volunteers. It is a gruesome and grisly business. Once again, we would have to assume those people somehow managed to substitute or change or alter the remains they found or planted. They go into the scene with empty containers, come out with remains, no police or investigator ever saw them "planting" remains.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   21:10:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Eoghan (#44)

This flash presentation has stood up very well.

Are none of the families involved protesting because of fear, money or perhaps they are satisfied?

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   21:12:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Cynicom (#46)

The are 4 families on record not buying it, and didn't except the payout...and of course, fear is a great motivator.

“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"

Eoghan  posted on  2006-09-09   21:16:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Eoghan (#44)

outstanding video. IF it had indeed been AA77, all of the film from the Pentagon, surrounding businesses, and the VA DOT would have been shown...not confiscated immediately by the FBI and hidden or destroyed. case closed, imo.

christine  posted on  2006-09-09   21:23:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Eoghan (#47)

The are 4 families on record not buying it,

Have they had their loved ones exhumed and checked?

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   21:26:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Eoghan (#47)

The are 4 families on record not buying it,

All that would be necessary to settle this matter would be for one family to exhume and find remains that do not belong to them. That would settle it.

However, what would be the result if they find it is indeed family???

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   21:29:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Cynicom (#2)

There is no evidence of burning jet fuel or forward-moving damage to the building - appropriate to an airliner.

The 'official' line is bullshit, by any definition.

What was the question?


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-09   21:30:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: SKYDRIFTER (#51)

The 'official' line is bullshit, by any definition.

Were you called as an eyewitness or professional expert???

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   21:36:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Cynicom (#52)

Were you called as an eyewitness or professional expert???

Common sense and elementary observation don't require certification.

(Or did anyone tell you?)


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-09   21:38:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: SKYDRIFTER (#53)

Were you called as an eyewitness or professional expert???

Were you called as an eyewitness or professional expert???

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   21:41:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: SKYDRIFTER (#53) (Edited)

Common sense and elementary observation don't require certification.

Absolutely!

I am very surprised to learn that Jim Hoffman also thinks that maybe a 757 did hit the Pentagon. He states this is possible with explosives on the plane that went off just before impact with the Pentagon and also shape cutter charges detonated inside the Pentagon to create the illusion that something hit it. If the plane was blown up just before it hit the Pentagon that would explain why it didn't do more damage to the Pentagon, but it wouldn't explain how the grass in front of the Pentagon was not singed. I honestly thought Jim Hoffman was trustworthy guy, now I don’t know.

God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]

RickyJ  posted on  2006-09-09   22:17:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Cynicom, SKYDRIFTER, christine, Jethro Tull (#32) (Edited)

If the "witnesses" are unbeleivable, how do we account for the families of the victims not being in the vanguard of not having AA77 at the Pentagon????

Surely you do not feel they are also complicit????

Remember now, many members of the families SAW the victims board and depart that very morning from Dulles. Are we to disregard them also as being part of the scheme???

Irrelevant!

See JTs post #40 about the sheeple reaction with the memorial services even though no bodies had been recovered.

And just where is the plane. That's right, the plane, Cyni. More specifically, the engines. Those things just do not disintegrate. Show me where the engines went.

The fuselage of a 757 is supposedly 13 feet in diameter. And the distance between the two main landing gear is 24 feet. The engines are further apart still. And with this, we are expected to believe that the engines and landing gear went thru the same 16 foot hole that is claimed to be the entry hole of a 757.

THAT IS JUST NUTS!

There are tons of picures out there on the web, but it seems that it took over two years for those pics to be released by the gov't. I don't buy any of it. Many of those pics were likely photoshopped. If they were for real, they should have been released within a few weeks of the event.

We've been thru this on ElPee and had it out with BAC on numerous occasions. It still does not add up.

And what about those five vidoes which were confiscated and never shown to the public? More coverup is what that is.

People have short memories on this. But, I, for one, recall it perfectly and the timing of the release of the photos stinks to high heaven.

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-09   22:20:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: RickyJ (#55)

Any explosion would have wiped out ALL the windows in the heliport tower cab, as well as at least "pocking" the lawn with holes and debris projecting upward.

With Bush being supposedly originally scheduled into the heliport about the time of the shit hitting the fan, why were there no personnel in the tower? They wouldn't work "on-call."

Etc.


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-09   22:25:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Cynicom (#45)

no police or investigator ever saw them "planting" remains.

OK. But who took the remains to be identified? Were they the same remains gathered at the scene?

angle  posted on  2006-09-09   22:26:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: BTP Holdings (#56)

The disinformation tactics are glowing in the dark.

Cyner = BAC?


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-09   22:28:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: RickyJ (#55)

http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?bm=1&ArtNum=33832&Disp=20&Trace=&SC=0&EC=40&Range=20

Check out this post made here last week. Blew my mind.

angle  posted on  2006-09-09   22:29:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: SKYDRIFTER (#57)

Any explosion would have wiped out ALL the windows in the heliport tower cab, as well as at least "pocking" the lawn with holes and debris projecting upward.

Not necessarily with shaped charges.

“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"

Eoghan  posted on  2006-09-09   22:30:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: angle (#58)

There's no suggestion that the firefighters seriously attempted to penetrate the building for survivors; nor to recover remains. Instead, the building was clearly allowed to continue burning, through the night, add the mysteriously torched construction trailer in the fenced yard.


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-09   22:30:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Eoghan (#61)

I totally agree that the Pentagon damage was done with internal exolosive and thermal charges. I think the trailer immediately in front of the building was blown up with explosives - and a few gallons of fuel.


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-09   22:32:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: SKYDRIFTER (#59)

Cyner = BAC?

I dunno about that. Some folks just want to believe "the" story.

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-09   22:37:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: SKYDRIFTER (#63)

Sky, who made the A-3? Was it Boeing or some other outfit?

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-09   22:43:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: BTP Holdings (#56)

People have short memories on this.

This gentleman was FEET away from the aircraft, saw it coming and ran .

"Probst, Frank

. . . [a] Pentagon renovation worker and retired Army officer, . . . stopped by the renovation workers' trailer just south of the Pentagon heliport. . . . Probst took a sidewalk alongside Route 27, which runs near the Pentagon's western face. . . . "He has lights off, wheels up, nose down," Probst recalled. The plane seemed to be accelerating directly toward him. He froze. "I knew I was dead," he said later. "The only thing I thought was, `Damn, my wife has to go to another funeral, and I'm not going to see my two boys again.'." He dove to his right. He recalls the engine passing on one side of him, about six feet away. The plane's right wing went through a generator trailer "like butter," Probst said. The starboard engine hit a low cement wall and blew apart. . . . He still can't remember the sound of the explosion. . . . "It was pretty horrible," he said of the noiseless images he carries inside him, of the jet vanishing in a cloud of smoke and dust, and bits of metal and concrete drifting down like confetti. On either side of him, three streetlights had been sheared in half by the airliner's wings at 12 to 15 feet above the ground. An engine had clipped the antenna off a Jeep Grand Cherokee stalled in traffic not far away. "Fortress Reborn," by Vince Crawley, http://Military.com, 9/11/02"

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   22:44:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: angle (#58)

OK. But who took the remains to be identified?

Who???

People that are trained to do such grisly work.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   22:47:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: BTP Holdings (#65)

That was built by Douglas Aircraft, with about four different engine types used on it.

It was far too big to have been THE aircraft at the Pentagon. If anything flew into the Pentagon; it was a missile. Anymore, I doubt if that is a viable possibility.


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-09   22:48:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Cynicom (#66) (Edited)

Lovely little tidbit from http://Military.com ROTFLMAO!

It don't get any better than this for the spooks and propaganda artists. Just what we need to get all of the flag wavers and bots going bonkers.

Did you watch the Flash linked by Eoghan? If not, do it.

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-09   22:52:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Cynicom (#66)

Strange that he doesn't remember the scorching heat from that engine or the noise.

In the daylight, one couldn't distinguish the lights being on - if they were. At the purported 300-plus knots, the gear/flaps configuration of the aircraft would have been a blur.

The wing that went through the generator like butter forgot to topple the generator - or leave anything representing a forward-moving impact.

(Bullshit!)


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-09   22:53:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: BTP Holdings (#69)

It don't get any better than this for the spooks and propaganda artists

That is not an intelligent reply to what a person saw that was there. If face to face would you feel you were in a position to call him a kook???

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   22:54:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: SKYDRIFTER (#70)

(Bullshit!)

Once again did yiou testify as a witness or professional expert???

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   22:55:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Cynicom (#66) (Edited)

An engine had clipped the antenna off a Jeep Grand Cherokee stalled in traffic not far away. "Fortress Reborn," by Vince Crawley,

There's obvious problems with the account, no heavy traffic at the time and the force of air and the engine exhaust would have sent the vehicle airborne.

“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"

Eoghan  posted on  2006-09-09   22:58:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Cynicom (#66)

He recalls the engine passing on one side of him, about six feet away.

If you believe this story then I have bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]

RickyJ  posted on  2006-09-09   22:58:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: RickyJ (#74)

If you believe this story then I have bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

Then I am to believe that the dozens of people that were there are all liars??????

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:00:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Cynicom (#71)

That is not an intelligent reply to what a person saw that was there. If face to face would you feel you were in a position to call him a kook???

I'd tell him I wasn't there and who the hell is he? I don't know him from Adam. So just who would you be calling a kook?

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-09   23:02:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Cynicom (#71)

If face to face would you feel you were in a position to call him a kook???

In a heart beat. I would call him a heck of lot worse actually.

God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]

RickyJ  posted on  2006-09-09   23:02:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: Cynicom (#2)

Sixty four people aboard AA77 WERE removed from the pentagon.

Where do you arrive at this figure? Clearly, no aircraft hit the Pentagon; where did they get the remains for the autopsy?

There is no suggestion of the rescue workers going in after survivors or remains. There is every evidence (judging by the firemans' garb) that there was no hydrocarbon fire associated with the Pentagon, versus a torched diesel fuel tank (on the wrong side of the generator) in the construction yard.

Well....?


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-09   23:02:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: Cynicom (#75)

Then I am to believe that the dozens of people that were there are all liars??????

As I said before, how many are plants?

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-09   23:04:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: SKYDRIFTER (#78)

Where do you arrive at this figure?

There are numerous accounts available on the net.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:04:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Cynicom (#75)

Cyner,

There were viable witnesses - backed by corroborating evidence. Those don't suggest that an aircraft actually hit the Pentagon.

The supposed 'witnesses' who are lacking corroborating evidence are somewhere between wannabe witnesses and poorly trained liars.


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-09   23:05:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: Cynicom (#75) (Edited)

I said that if you believe that person’s story then I have bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Do you have no understanding of what a jet engine at full throttle only 6 feet away would do to a human being? By your responses it appears you do not. Facts are always more realiable than people because they never lie.

God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]

RickyJ  posted on  2006-09-09   23:06:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: BTP Holdings (#79)

As I said before, how many are plants?

Plants??? Surely you do not believe that everyone connected with this event is a plant???

If you check the credentials of some of the witnesses you will find they are newpaper people with USA Today. They have hardly b een Bush supporters, yet their testimony is the same as the rest.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:07:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: Cynicom (#80)

There are numerous accounts available on the net.

The passengers were supported by reservations, ticket purchases, tickets and names on a passenger manifest - not so the purported 'terrorists;' don't you find that off-scale for the situation?

On NONE of the 9-11 aircraft are found 'terrorist' reservations, ticket purchases, tickets and names on a passenger manifest.

Well....?


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-09   23:08:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: Cynicom (#80)

Where do you arrive at this figure?

There are numerous accounts available on the net.

And I've seen the figures you cite. But the "official" flight manifest only lists 54 people. And there seems to be one who was bumped from another flight and put on 77 at the last moment. So that would make 55 on the passenger list. A heck of a difference.

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-09   23:08:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: RickyJ (#82)

. Do you have no understanding of what a jet engine at full throttle only 6 feet away would do to a human being? By your responses it appears you do not.

What I do or do not know is not germaine here. We are discussing how the bodies were recovered at Pentagon if the AA aircraft never arrived.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:10:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: RickyJ (#74)

... He recalls the engine passing on one side of him, about six feet away. and If you believe this story then I have bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

I wasn't going to get into the fray on this one, because I could not believe that anyone in their right mind, with sufficient gray matter and common sense, would want to waste their time on such nonsense.

Therefore, the amount of activity being devoted to such trivial absurdity begs the question, "Has the 47m been infiltrated by those from LP or FR who want to get something going just for the fun of it?"

On the other hand, those who tend to put weight into this theory have to believe what the "newspaper" people have reported they witnessed. Please, what don't you understand about the media in this country?

Wake up and don't waste time trying to turn bullshit into more bullshit.

Phant2000  posted on  2006-09-09   23:11:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: Cynicom (#83)

Plants??? Surely you do not believe that everyone connected with this event is a plant???

If you check the credentials of some of the witnesses you will find they are newpaper people with USA Today. They have hardly b een Bush supporters, yet their testimony is the same as the rest.

No way to tell for sure, but the differing stories is astounding. Give me 50 people looking at the same thing and you will get several differing accounts, maybe more than several. And the old college test does not mean much since they all knew what they were there for. For that matter, so probably were many of the "witnesses" aware of why they were there at the Pentagon. ;0)

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-09   23:12:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: BTP Holdings (#85)

And I've seen the figures you cite.

The basic premise is this, how did the victims arrive at the Pentagon if not via AA 77, where is the aircraft that departed Dulles and where did the authorities obtain 64 or whatever number of replacement bodies???

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:13:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: Cynicom (#83)

USA Today. They have hardly been Bush supporters

I think you're old enough to know better...this is Israel's war, Bush, with the help of Diebold, would be The One.

“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"

Eoghan  posted on  2006-09-09   23:13:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: Cynicom (#86)

We are discussing how the bodies were recovered at Pentagon if the AA aircraft never arrived.

Cyner,

How do you arrive at the conclusion that any passengers were FACTUALLY removed from the Pentagon? There is no suggestion that any sign of bodies was found. The one fire chief admitted that there were only scattered (small) parts of an aircraft in the building. By his description, nothing that couldn't have been easily planted.


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-09   23:15:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: BTP Holdings (#88)

No way to tell for sure, but the differing stories is astounding.

Agreed...

Twenty five testified they saw the aircraft airborne and saw the AA markings.

Forty five saw it airborne but could not identify carrier.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:15:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: SKYDRIFTER (#91)

How do you arrive at the conclusion that any passengers were FACTUALLY removed from the Pentagon?

And how does anyone arrive at the fact that they were NOT taken from the site?

If not the passengers, then where are the passengers and the aircraft????

Ted Olson is not a dummy, and he has raised no doubts.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:18:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: Cynicom, RickyJ (#86) (Edited)

What I do or do not know is not germaine here.

But you posted the schtick from the military mag.

I agree with RickyJ. If that guy was 6 feet from a 757 engine at full throttle and at near full speed, he would be hamburger.

Most people have no idea of these things. That is why the propagandists and spin artists succeed to a great extent.

It works the same way with explosives. I knew a guy in UDT and he knew about explosives. Once there was a bomb scare at a suburban Chicago school and the cops said the so-called bomb would have levelled the building. He knew that was bogus by the way it was described as being 3 sticks of dynamite. It was only enough to blow out the walls in the area near where it was found.

But the average Joe Schmoe on the street would not know any better. Same as with the military mag story. It don't cut the mustard.

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-09   23:21:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: SKYDRIFTER (#91)

nothing that couldn't have been easily planted.

Planted material would not have residue of burnt jet fuel.

You told someone there was no indication of such fuel. That is totally false and if you have aviation experience you know it.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:22:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: BTP Holdings (#94)

engine at full throttle and at near full speed, he would be hamburger.

Not true...Men have been sucked into jet engines and lived. You can find such on the net if you have never had prior reading.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:24:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: Cynicom (#93)

Ted Olson is not a dummy, and he has raised no doubts.

Olson is an ardent Zionist.

“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"

Eoghan  posted on  2006-09-09   23:24:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: Eoghan (#97)

Olson is an ardent Zionist.

And his wife is still dead. She is not being held in secret somewhere.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:26:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: Cynicom (#96)

Men have been sucked into jet engines and lived

And what does that have to do with the price of matzoh balls?

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-09   23:26:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: BTP Holdings (#99)

engine at full throttle and at near full speed, he would be hamburger.

You post that????

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:28:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Cynicom (#100)

You post that????

You a wise guy?

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-09   23:30:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: Cynicom (#98)

And his wife is still dead. She is not being held in secret somewhere.

She probably dead, but the stories of her phones calls are doubtful when Ted tells the story.

“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"

Eoghan  posted on  2006-09-09   23:31:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: BTP Holdings (#101)

I agree with RickyJ. If that guy was 6 feet from a 757 engine at full throttle and at near full speed, he would be hamburger.

I think that is you.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:33:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Eoghan (#102)

She probably dead, but the stories of her phones calls are doubtful

Dead?? Okay, where is the aircraft? Tough to hide such a large aircraft.

Just forget the bodies.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:34:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: SKYDRIFTER (#78)

There is no suggestion of the rescue workers going in after survivors or remains. There is every evidence (judging by the firemans' garb) that there was no hydrocarbon fire associated with the Pentagon, versus a torched diesel fuel tank (on the wrong side of the generator) in the construction yard.

This is a big one for me. I know what open air Hydrocarbons fires look like and do. It was strange to me the first ten seconds when I saw the video of the Pentagon, but I was ready to believe it all at that point.

You put tons of HC in the atmosphere and ignite it, there is going to be a real big carbon black mess.

I know this because I have seen it. I have fought fires in a major refinery,where a pressure vessel ruptures(Conoco Lake Charles Complex) and this is exactly the situation of a supposed jetliner splitting up on impact.

The Pentagon should have been black from head to tail if so many gallons of avation fuel was burned at atmosphere. Should have been carbon black three inches thick all around the place.

And what about the engines, that decided to misobey the laws of momentum and dissapear into the too small hole.

This sucks

tom007  posted on  2006-09-09   23:39:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: Cynicom (#96)

Not true...Men have been sucked into jet engines and lived.

OK, where is your link? Come on, I and many others here would like to see this one.

God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]

RickyJ  posted on  2006-09-09   23:42:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: Cynicom (#104)

Okay, where is the aircraft?

Wish I knew...like Atta's dad said, "I don't know, ask Mossad." Your defense is running into thin air.

Just forget the bodies.

If you want to hide bodies, do it on a day a national terror drill is being run...then watch the Masters chuckle at the Federales' incompetents.

“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"

Eoghan  posted on  2006-09-09   23:44:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: RickyJ (#106)

OK, where is your link? Come on, I and many others here would like to see this one.

Ricky, I do not have to link everything I have ever seen, or read. If you really want to check it, I bet if you google you will find such.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:44:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: Eoghan (#107)

Wish I knew

Perhaps others here can tell us where the rather large 757 is?????

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:45:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: Cynicom (#108)

Ricky, I do not have to link everything I have ever seen, or read. If you really want to check it, I bet if you google you will find such.

Oh, I see.

God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]

RickyJ  posted on  2006-09-09   23:45:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: RickyJ (#110)

Oh, I see.

Tell you what, as a friend I will look for you.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:47:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: RickyJ (#110)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_gpPbpONK4

Rickey...Here is video you can watch of a man being sucked into a jet engine and he lived. I found twenty such references.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_gpPbpONK4

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:50:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: Cynicom (#109) (Edited)

There were confusing reports of a crash at Camp David, a landing at Cleveland International, a fifth "hijacked" plane that never re-emerged...Me? I'd ditch the craft into the ocean for best results.

“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"

Eoghan  posted on  2006-09-09   23:51:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: Eoghan (#113)

There were confusing reports of a crash at Camp David, a

I have no answers, leave that to the experts here. I am just one that asks questions of doubters.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:53:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: RickyJ (#110)

Oh, I see.

Ricky...did you watch the video???

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-09   23:54:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: Cynicom (#115)

Ricky...did you watch the video???

Yep, it was amazing, thanks for the link.

God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]

RickyJ  posted on  2006-09-10   0:08:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: Cynicom (#115)

Now watch this one and get an idea what would have happened to the guy 6 feet away from a jet engine at full throttle. The video you showed, while amazing, was not anywhere close to full throttle.

God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]

RickyJ  posted on  2006-09-10   0:13:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: RickyJ (#116)

Yep, it was amazing, thanks for the link

There have been several instances of such. Not all turn out well of course.

I started in the aviation industy in 1950, military, Federal, Martin Aircraft, jack of all trades. Saw a lot, expert at nothing but I do ask questions.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-10   0:13:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: All (#118)

anywhere close to full throttle.

Big difference as to whether you are fore of aft of the engine, big difference.

In one you sent, there is no blast fence which is unusal.

Stand in front of a fan, then in rear, do you feel the most air passing in front or in the rear????

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-10   0:17:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: Cynicom, RickyJ (#103)

I agree with RickyJ. If that guy was 6 feet from a 757 engine at full throttle and at near full speed, he would be hamburger.

I think that is you.

And I think you have no conception of the vortex created by a jumbo jet flying at a reported speed of 500+ mph.

Just as a small example of the air currents of a passing object, I can tell you of something I witnessed in my days working on the highways.

We were working in the right lane of a 55 mph zone and the foreman was standing on the lane line with his back to the traffic lane on a four lane divided highway.

A tractor trailer came over the hill and was bearing down on us and the foreman stood in the same place. As the truck passed him he was nearly sucked under the tralier by the wind vortex created by the truck. He had to fight with all his strength to stay on his feet.

And that is only a close call since I know of stories where people have been sucked under trucks passing them on the highway, including state troopers.

With a jet travelling at the speeds suggested, it is easy to spot the BS in that story in the military mag.

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-10   0:20:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: RickyJ (#117)

anywhere close to full throttle.

Ricky

anywhere close to full throttle.

Big difference as to whether you are fore of aft of the engine, big difference.

In one you sent, there is no blast fence which is unusal.

Stand in front of a fan, then in rear, do you feel the most air passing in front or in the rear????

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-10   0:21:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: BTP Holdings (#120)

it is easy to spot the BS in that story in the military mag.

There are many other references to the same event. Myself, I saw no BS.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-10   0:24:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: RickyJ (#117)

Talk about going for a ride. LOL

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-10   0:26:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: BTP Holdings (#123)

alk about going for a ride. LOL

Ever see a jet seaplane???

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-10   0:27:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: Cynicom (#122)

Myself, I saw no BS.

Want to try your luck standing on the lane line with 75 mph traffic whizzing by? ;0)

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-10   0:29:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: BTP Holdings (#125)

Want to try your luck standing on the lane line with 75 mph traffic whizzing by? ;0)

Nope, I may be dumb but not foolhardy.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-10   0:31:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: BTP Holdings (#125)

Want to try your luck standing on the lane line with 75 mph traffic whizzing by? ;0)

I remember watching NYPD motorcycle cops riding between two lanes of moving traffic.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-10   0:35:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: Cynicom (#93)

Ted Olson is not a dummy, and he has raised no doubts.

About those collect calls from Barbie???

No airplanes = no passengers at the Pentagon.

It's that simple.


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-10   0:40:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Cynicom (#95)

Planted material would not have residue of burnt jet fuel.

Cyner,

What does it take to throw some Jet-A on some parts from the scrap yard? For that matter, where do you get the business of "residue" from, in the first place?


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-10   0:43:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: tom007 (#105)

Among other obstructions, there was originally a trailer immediately in front of the Pentagon wall (and a big tree). The photos show the trailer remains in the same spot - not pushed into the Pentagon wall.

(What "airplane??")

The burning diesel fuel accounts for the only thick black smoke; nothing else to remotely suggest hydrocarbon fuel. Again, the diesel tank is burning from the wrong side!



SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-10   0:47:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: RickyJ (#117)

A 300 knot 757 would generate an incredible amount of air pressure, in the form of wake turbulence from the wing and engine pod. The jet blast would be that much more - add the temperature and the noise.

The "Ground Effect" (cushion) would not allow the aircraft to descend below 50 feet, due to the pressure buildup under the wing. In order to penetrate through the 'ground effect,' the nose would have to dig a trench, into the building.

Anyone under such a wing would be knocked senseless.


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-10   0:54:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: Cynicom (#127)

A message that holds strong meaning regardless of the differences in opinion many people have concerning what happened that day.

Vicky Yancey was on that plane that is supposed to have hit he Pentagon. She posted on Time.com/Politics and suddenly that day a frequent and well liked poster in our virtual community just vanished.

If that plane didn't hit the Pentagon I want to know what happed to it and where it and the people on it are.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-09-10   1:28:47 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: SKYDRIFTER (#128)

No airplanes = no passengers at the Pentagon.

And all of those people are in on the biggest hoax ever conceived?

Asking anyone to believe that takes a twisted mental exercise.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-10   3:37:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: SKYDRIFTER (#129)

where do you get the business of "residue" from, in the first place?

Anyone with aviation experience would not have to ask that question.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-10   3:45:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: Ferret Mike (#132)

If that plane didn't hit the Pentagon I want to know what happed to it and where it and the people on it are.

Most sane people already know where the people are (buried) and the plane (remains stored).

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-10   3:58:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: Jethro Tull, Kamala (#40)

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, flanked by Shelton, two senators and the secretary of the Army, declared the Pentagon open for business Wednesday.

"The Pentagon is functioning. It will be in business tomorrow," Rumsfeld said at a hastily called news conference at the Defense Department headquarters, its hallway still filled with acrid smoke.

Finally, some truth from the administration:

"....Is is just a coincidence that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld announced that the Pentagon lost $2.3 trillion of the taxpayer's dollars the day before the attacks and that the section of the Pentagon that got hit housed a lot of accountants, bookkeepers and budget analysts and was also the end of the fiscal year and important budget information was in the damaged area?

 "On Sept. 10, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld declared war. Not on foreign terrorists, "the adversary's closer to home. It's the Pentagon bureaucracy," he said.

He said money wasted by the military poses a serious threat.

"In fact, it could be said it's a matter of life and death," he said. Rumsfeld promised change but the next day – Sept. 11-- the world changed and in the rush to fund the war on terrorism, the war on waste seems to have been forgotten. Just last week President Bush announced, "my 2003 budget calls for more than $48 billion in new defense spending."

More money for the Pentagon, CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales reports, while its own auditors admit the military cannot account for 25 percent of what it spends.

"According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions," Rumsfeld admitted.

$2.3 trillion — that's $8,000 for every man, woman and child in America." -CBS (01/29/02)

 Rumsfeld: "According to some estimates, we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions." - DoD (09/10/01)

 "One Army office in the Pentagon lost 34 of its 65 employees in the attack. Most of those killed in the office, called Resource Services Washington, were civilian accountants, bookkeepers and budget analysts. They were at their desks when American Airlines Flight 77 struck." - South Coast Today/Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (12/20/01)

 An Engineer's Expertise Joins a Firefighter's Nightmare

"The plane had gone in right where she was located as part of the budget analyst office. The guys began working themselves to death to clear this huge area to try and find her under the debris."

He said his mother-in-law had died in the crash. "We were only partially successful [in finding the body]. It's one of things I'm still dealing with," he admitted." -Connection Newspapers (09/05/02)

 "The impact area included both the Navy operations center and the office complex of the National Guard and Army Reserve. It was also the end of the fiscal year and important budget information was in the damaged area." - Arlington County After-Action Report

 Web Exclusive: Washington’s Heroes

"Lt. Col. Marilyn Wills has staff meetings every other Tuesday morning. A deputy chief of staff in the Army’s personnel division, Wills, 40, had a particularly full agenda for the Sept. 11 meeting. The House and Senate Armed Services Committees were working on the 2002 budget, and her department was responsible for gathering facts and figures to pass on to congressional number crunchers. She got to her desk in office 477 on the second floor of the Pentagon’s E-Ring at about 7:30 a.m., went through her voice-mail messages and e-mails, and spent an hour prepping for the meeting with a colleague. As she was nearing the end of her presentation about the budget bills and the upcoming Association of the U.S. Army Conference, the room shook, and there was a thunderous boom." -MSNBC (09/28/03).........."

Compare the list of those killed in the pentagon, numbers crunchers, and those involved in the "War Games" being conducted [at the link http://killtown.91 1review.org/flight77/fatalities.html - thanks, Eoghan?], with those killed on the plane:

".....The following list of passengers was gathered from many sources posted on the Internet:

Dong Lee, Ruben Ornedo, and Chad Keller all worked for Boeing. Lee also worked for the NSA. Stanley Hall, "the dean of electronic warfare," (along with Peter Gay, David Kolvacin, and Kenneth Waldie on other flights), worked for Raytheon.

William Caswell was a particle physicist who worked for the Navy. His job was so classified that his family had no clue as to what he did and did not know why he was flying to California.

Charles Droz, LCDR USN Ret, was a software developer for EM solutions (manufacturer of Wide Area Networks).

Robert Penniger worked for BAE Systems, ("an industry leader in flight control systems"), whose Board is comprised of many from the intelligence community. BAE has apparently removed their Board of Directors page, but it list a "who's who" of high level connections to the CIA, DARPA, and NSA. (See the appendix for a list of outside directors of BAE Systems that were not on Flight 77.)

Robert Ploger and his wife were added "late" to the original CNN passenger list. He is the son of Major General Robert R Ploger USA, Ret, another "flag" link. The other "late" addition was Sandra Teague, a physical therapist at Georgetown University Hospital.

John Sammartino and Leonard Taylor worked at Xontech (missile defense), another company connected to the intelligence community, also with ties to Boeing.

Vicki Yancey worked for Vreedenberg Corp, yet another company connected to the intelligence community. Her father describes her death as a "planned murder." Her widower works for Northrup-Grumman.

Mary Jane Booth was in a position to know what was going on at Dulles Airport as secretary for American Airlines general manager.

John Yamnicky, 71, Capt USN Ret, was a defense contractor for Veridian who had done a number of "black ops," according to his son.

The physicians, lawyers, biotech representatives, and "human interest" victims who were aboard, could also provide important clues, but in the interest of space, we will save them for future consideration.

Many readers recall a particular Fox Television TV show called "The Lone Gunmen" which was aired on March 2, 2001 [Download Episode]. In the show, the bad guys control a passenger airplane by remote control with intentions of flying it into the World Trade Center. The villains were a Pentagon insider faction; the motive to inflame the public and thereby legitimate new military budgets and operations. Life indeed imitates art.

It has been reported that some people were warned not to fly that day. One was reported to be Mayor Willie Brown of San Francisco. Another was author Salman Rushdie. The person on that flight MOST likely to be warned was Robert Speisman. He was an executive at Lazare Kaplan, a diamond merchant, and son in law of Maurice Templesman. Templesman was Jackie Kennedy's long time lover and is highly connected according to Time Magazine. Time also reported about about his "special access" to the National Security Council. He has also "stepped out" with Madeleine Albright.

I attempted on three occasions to obtain a final passenger list from American Airlines. They refuse to give a list and in fact won't even verify that they gave the first list to CNN. Since the list is in the public domain, I find it curious that they would not take ownership nor provide a current, "correct" list.

Would it even be necessary to "lure" all expendables onto the designated death flights? Why not just grab those you want to get rid of and then slip them into the pile later? Have you seen an interview with the check-in personnel for the flights who can tell us who actually got on any of these flights? Not a chance. In fairness, Washington, D.C. and it's suburbs draw a great number of contractors for the military and intelligence communities in their normal course of business. It may be mere coincidence that these passengers were all on the same flight; however; the government refuses to release information which would relieve our concerns.

Appendix

List of outside diectors of BAE Systems that were not on Flight 77:

Richard J. Kerr former Deputy Director of Central Intelligence

Mr. Kerr served in the U.S. Intelligence community for 32 years - from September 1960 until March 1992. He started as a country analyst in the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and ended his career as the senior professional intelligence officer in the U.S. government serving as Deputy Director of Central Intelligence.

Dr. William Schneider, Jr. former Under Secretary State for Security, Science and Technology

Prior to serving on the board, Dr. Schneider was formerly Under Secretary of State for Security Assistance, Science and Technology (1982-1986). He served as Associate Director for National Security and International Affairs at the Office of Management and Budget (198l-2) prior to being nominated as Under Secretary by the President.

Dr. Robert S. Cooper former Director, DARPA

Dr. Cooper is currently President, CEO, Director and co-founder of Atlantic Aerospace Electronics Corporation. From 1981 to 1985, Dr. Cooper was Assistant Secretary of Defense for Research and Technology and simultaneously held the position of Director for the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA). As Assistant Secretary, he was principal advisor to the Secretary of Defense on the allocation of Department resources to research, exploratory development and advanced development projects.

General Anthony C. Zinni (Ret) former Commander-in-Chief, CENTCOM

Gen. Zinni was formerly Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Central Command. While in the Marine Corps he held numerous command and staff assignments that include platoon, company, battalion, regimental, Marine expeditionary unit, and Marine expeditionary force command. His staff assignments included service on battalion, regimental, division, base, and service staffs in operations, training, special operations, counterterrorism, and manpower billets. Gen. Zinni most recently served as the United States Special Envoy to the Middle East.

General Kenneth A. Minihan (Ret) former Director National Security Agency; Central Security Service

Lt. Gen Minihan served more than thirty-three years of active commissioned service to the nation before retiring from the U.S. Air Force in 1999. On his final tour of duty, he served as the 14th Director of the National Security Agency/Central Security Service, a combat support agency of the Department of Defense with military and civilian personnel stationed worldwide. As Director, he was the senior uniformed intelligence officer in the Department of Defense. He also served as the Director of The Defense Intelligence Agency.

Robert L. Prestel former Deputy Director, National Security Agency

Mr. Prestel served as Deputy Director of the National Security Agency (NSA) from 1990 - . He was the senior civilian presiding over this Defense Agency whose principal missions are the production of foreign Signals Intelligence and the protection of official U.S. Government communications and information systems....."

Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77 [see also STILL NO ARABS ON FLIGHT 77 sierratimes]

http://www.physics911.net/olmsted.h tm

Interesting juxtaposition, I'd say.

as for the plane, I think I read it was parted out or sold for scrap, like the tower. If the plane landed at Jay Rocky's Yeager, it wouldn't be hard to do. Saw Rocky on TV yesterday, backtracking on the war. See David Rockefeller quote re right crisis needed:

"Quote: We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we [ the CFR ] need is the right major crisis and the nation[s] will accept the New World Order. End Quote. David Rockefeller: Founder and Honorary Chairman, Council of the Americas; Chairman, Americas Society; Founder, Forum of the Americas; Chairman, Emeritus, Council on Foreign Relations [CFR]; Founder and Honorary Chairman, Trilateral Commission [TC]; Chairman, The Bilderbergs. [ How does the 11 Sept 2001 attack upon our country figure into this? CLMsr ]"

THE BANKRUPTCY OF THE UNITED STATES

http://www.apfn.net/Doc- 100_bankruptcy.htm

follow the money.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-09-10   8:10:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#136)

that is bombshell information.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-09-10   8:27:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: SKYDRIFTER, Cynicom (#131)

The "Ground Effect" (cushion) would not allow the aircraft to descend below 50 feet, due to the pressure buildup under the wing. In order to penetrate through the 'ground effect,' the nose would have to dig a trench, into the building.

I keep telling people about this "ground effect" but they have no clue. That is why the story in the military mag is a load of BS.

    Anyone under such a wing would be knocked sensless.

That's what I said, hamburger, or as good as.

Maybe Cyni needs a bitch slap as an example of "knocked senseless."

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-10   8:45:46 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#136)

Here's the CBS transcript.

Pentagon Loses Millions


CBS Evening News with Dan Rather; 1/29/2002; Dan Rather, Vince Gonzales


CBS Evening News with Dan Rather

01-29-2002

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DAN RATHER, CBS ANCHOR: The billions lost by once high-flying and politically powerfully connected businesses like Enron and Global Crossing have drawn a great deal of attention, and rightly so.

But in tonight`s "Eye on America," CBS`s Vince Gonzales reports, all too often, far less attention is paid to far greater losses when the dollars come from taxpayers` pockets.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) VINCE GONZALES, CBS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the Pentagon, the day before 9/11, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld declared war. Not on foreign terrorists.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: The adversary`s closer to home.

It`s the Pentagon bureaucracy.

GONZALES: He said money wasted by the military poses a serious threat.

RUMSFELD: In fact, it could be said that it`s a matter of life and death.

GONZALES: Rumsfeld promised change. But the next day, the world changed. And in the rush to fund the war on terrorism, the war on waste seems to have been forgotten.

BUSH: My `03 budget calls for more than $48 billion in new defense spending.

GONZALES: More money for the Pentagon, when its own auditors admit the military cannot account for 25 percent of what it already spends.

RUMSFELD: According to some estimates, we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions.

GONZALES: $2.3 trillion with a "t." That`s $8,000 for every man, woman and child in America. To understand how the Pentagon can lose track of trillions, consider the case of one military accountant who tried to find out what happened to a mere $300 million.

JIM MINNERY, DEFENSE FINANCE & ACCOUNTING SERVICE: We know it`s gone, but we don`t know what they spent it on.

GONZALES: Jim Minnery, a former Marine turned whistle-blower, is risking his job by speaking out for the first time about the millions he noticed were missing from one defense agency`s balance sheets. Minnery tried to follow the money trail, even crisscrossing the country looking for records.

MINNERY: The director looked at me and says, "Why do you care about this stuff?" It took me aback, you know, my supervisor asking me why I care about doing a good job. So.

GONZALES: He was reassigned and says officials then covered up the problem by just writing it off.

MINNERY: They got to cover it up. That`s where the corruption comes in. They got to cover up the fact that they can`t do the job.

GONZALES: The Pentagon`s Inspector General partially substantiated several of Minnery`s allegations, but could not prove officials tried "to manipulate the financial statements." 20 years ago, Pentagon employee Franklin C. Spinney made headlines exposing what he calls the accounting games. He`s still there, and although he does not speak for the Pentagon, he believes the problem has gotten worse.

FRANKLIN SPINEY, DEPT. OF DEFENSE ANALYST: Those numbers are pie in the sky. The books are cooked routinely, year after year after year.

GONZALES: Retired Vice Admiral Jack Shanahan commanded the Navy`s second fleet the first time Donald Rumsfeld served as Defense Secretary.

JACK SHANAHAN, RETIRED VICE ADMIRAL, NAVY: With good financial oversight, we could find $48 billion in loose change in that building without having to hit the taxpayers.

GONZALES: In the 2.5 minutes since this report began, the Pentagon has spent nearly $2 million. And it may never know where 25 percent of those tax dollars went.

In Los Angeles, I`m Vince Gonzales for "Eye on America." (END VIDEOTAPE) END

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-09-10   8:57:10 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: Jethro Tull (#139)

Oy vey, nice piece...

“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"

Eoghan  posted on  2006-09-10   9:01:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: BTP Holdings (#120)

And that is only a close call since I know of stories where people have been sucked under trucks passing them on the highway, including state troopers.

If you're following one in your vehicle, it will actually pull you along while you're behind it.

I've seen it done. All you need to do is put your vehicle in 'neutral.'

formerly GJones.

InsideJob  posted on  2006-09-10   9:08:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: All (#140)

Cynthia McKinney takes on Donald Rumsfeld

“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"

Eoghan  posted on  2006-09-10   9:12:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: Cynicom (#135)

Most sane people already know where the people are (buried)

Do you know where they're buried and who they are? I don't think so. It takes an extraordinary leap of faith to think that the perpetrators of this scheme (BushCheneyInc and their backers) are above the despicable heinous acts that created 911. Read the list above as to who exactly was offed that day.

After all the information presented on this thread alone, you can't be that naive to believe what you're writing and now you're beginning to arouse my suspicion that you are a shill.

angle  posted on  2006-09-10   9:17:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: Jethro Tull (#139)

Pentagon Loses Millions

Why does the headline say Millions instead of TRILLIONS?

angle  posted on  2006-09-10   9:18:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: Eoghan (#140)

Look, Abe.....business is such a simple thing. When things go shitty, burn the building and collect the insurance money. This tactic is sometime called Jewish Lightening, when it occurs in the middle of the night :)

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-09-10   9:24:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: angle (#144)

Not a clue.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-09-10   9:24:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: angle (#143)

arouse my suspicion that you are a shill.

angle...

Why not keep this discussion civil and not lower ourselves to name calling?

I have not characterized you in any demeaning way and try to avoid such as it contributes nothing in any discussion. Otherwise I read your posts and have found them interesting.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-10   9:31:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#148. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#136)

$2.3 trillion — that's $8,000 for every man, woman and child in America." -CBS (01/29/02)

That no good crook Zackheim is behind this. I sure could use that 8 grand.

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-10   9:31:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: SKYDRIFTER (#133)

Asking anyone to believe that takes a twisted mental exercise.

25 Ways to Suppress Truth

"It is the job of a disinfo artist to interfere with these evaluations... to at least make people think the links are weak or broken when, in truth, they are not... or to propose alternative solutions leading away from the truth. Often, by simply impeding and slowing down the process through disinformation tactics, a level of victory is assured because apathy increases with time and rhetoric. "

#9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

angle  posted on  2006-09-10   9:31:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: Kamala, All (#0)

Don't you all remember the Pentagon Strike Video and the "blue tarp"?

If the links don't work try the "cashed" link.

http://tinyurl.com/emlp9

The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its' original size

Itisa1mosttoolate  posted on  2006-09-10   9:33:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#151. To: BTP Holdings (#138)

Maybe Cyni needs a bitch slap as an example of "knocked senseless."

BTP...

Really?...Is that your way of having a discussion with other people in face to face social gatherings?

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-10   9:44:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#152. To: Cynicom (#147)

For my part, the discussion is civil.

You refuse to discuss the evidence provided to counterbalance your mantra that the bodies were found, buried and there's no complicity or conspiracy.

You have accused people of twisted thinking or not being sane if they don't agree with your pronouncements and those of the BushCheneyInc administration.

angle  posted on  2006-09-10   9:53:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#153. To: (#149)

So, the terrorist who flew the 757 into the Pentagon enrolled in flight school in January '01 and flunked out in March '01. Despite this he was able to turn off the transponder on the aircraft, fly about the country for more than one hour unimpeded, and then display extraordinary flying skill in hitting the Pentagon. OK...

A persistent suspicion; Eagan flight trainer wouldn't let unease about suspect rest.(NEWS)

Star Tribune (Minneapolis, MN); 12/21/2001; Gordon, Greg

- Snip

Hanjour's English While Moussaoui behaved oddly, Pan Am representatives never suspected that Hanjour, whom they found to be amiable, was a terrorist, the sources said. By the time he enrolled at Pan Am's school in Phoenix last January, Hanjour had attended English language school, bounced around several western flight schools for a few years and obtained a commercial pilot's license. Beginning in April 1996, Hanjour studied English for more than four months at Holy Names College in Oakland, Calif., and reached level five of the school's 12 levels of English proficiency, said school spokesman Mike Palm. That was sufficient to "survive very well in the English language," Palm said. When Hanjour enrolled in January at Pan Am's Phoenix facility, Oberstar said, his instructor made a more critical assessment of his English. The FAA began clamping down on U.S. flight schools in recent years to ensure that no one who cannot speak conversational English receives a flight certificate. Oberstar and others said the Pan Am instructor questioned how Hanjour got a flight certificate with his English, felt it was inadequate to complete the firm's course and phoned the FAA. Oberstar said the instructor asked: "What do we do about this? We don't think we should continue a person in flight training whose English is so inadequate." Pan Am officials were dissatisfied by the FAA inspector's response: suggesting he might know of an Arabic-speaking person who could assist him with his English, Oberstar and others said. That approach apparently didn't work. Hanjour "flunked out" in March, a company executive told legislators.

- Snip

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-09-10   9:58:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#154. To: angle (#152)

You have accused people of twisted thinking or not being sane if they don't agree with your pronouncements and those of the BushCheneyInc administration.

If I am a "shill" then I have no further interest in trying to have an intelligent discussion with anyone that desires to lower themselves to name calling.

Cynicom  posted on  2006-09-10   10:01:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#155. To: Cynicom (#154)

Cyni, I'm with u on the name calling. I'm learning stuff on this thread because we're discussing a difference of opinion like adults.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-09-10   10:13:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#156. To: Itisa1mosttoolate, SKYDRIFTER (#150)

http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/WitnessesLink.htm

"Only the Raytheon executives and the Air Force would have known which team installed a particular system on the A-3 and who was involved in the operation," said Schwarz.

Coincidentally, five key Raytheon executives died on 9-11: Stanley Hall-- Director of Electronic warfare program management (American 77), Peter Gay--VP of Electronic Systems on special assignment at the El Segundo, CA division office where the Global Hawk UAV remote control system is made (American 11), Kenneth Waldie--Senior Quality Control Engineer for Electronic Systems (American 11), David Kovalcin--Senior Mechanical Engineer for Electronic Systems (American 11), and Herbert Homer--Corporate Executive working with the Department of Defense (United 175).

Curiously, the five Raytheon executives chose three of the four doomed jets and all happened to fly on September 11. Have their family members been interviewed? Other co-workers? Defense Department officials?

Raytheon's top people tied to the Global Hawk remote control UAV aircraft systems all died on 9/11 without a grand jury probing their memos, electronic messages, phone records, meeting calendars, visits or calls to Ft. Collins- Loveland airport and testimony linked to related matters.

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-10   10:18:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#157. To: Cynicom (#151)

Really?...Is that your way of having a discussion with other people in face to face social gatherings?

Having a hoot at your expense. LOL

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-10   10:20:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#158. To: BTP Holdings (#156)

WOW! VERY INTERESTING

The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its' original size

Itisa1mosttoolate  posted on  2006-09-10   10:20:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#159. To: Cynicom (#154)

If I am a "shill" then I have no further interest in trying to have an intelligent discussion with anyone that desires to lower themselves to name calling.

Then don't have any discussions with yourself. You're the one calling names. You're the one not discussing the evidence.

25 Ways to Suppress Truth

#2. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the 'How dare you!' gambit.

angle  posted on  2006-09-10   11:05:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#160. To: Cynicom, Christine, Aristeides, Diana, Honway, All (#133)

Cyner,

As a Viet Nam veteran, I can tell you that America has seen this before - granted, the trigger-event was radically smaller.


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-10   13:49:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#161. To: Cynicom, Christine, Aristeides, Diana, Honway, All (#154)

If I am a "shill" then I have no further interest in trying to have an intelligent discussion with anyone that desires to lower themselves to name calling.

Your disinformationsit tactics are quite distinct - you ol' disinformationist, you!

Well....?


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-10   13:51:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#162. To: BTP Holdings (#157)

a great republican ad

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-09-10   13:52:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#163. To: BTP Holdings (#156)

Schwartz is so full of shit, he's a biohazard.

The A-3 is a high-wing aircraft which is big enough that it would have left a more distinct impact impression, than the 757 (if factual) would have.


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-10   13:55:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#164. To: angle (#149)

Ah, you're onto the bad guys!


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2006-09-10   15:45:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#165. To: Cynicom (#93)

And how does anyone arrive at the fact that they were NOT taken from the site?

If not the passengers, then where are the passengers and the aircraft????

Ted Olson is not a dummy, and he has raised no doubts.

I should be one of the last who would ever jump into this fray........BUT!

It would have been easy enough to take the actual plane and its passengers and deep six them in the Atlantic.

I would agree Olson isn't dumb, but when a 'deal' is offered that one just can't seem to refuse, it would be easy for him to have no doubts., for example, a suggestion that something would happen to one of his kids.

As for believability........for a long time I believed that gubmint loved her citizens and would do nothing to harm them. But then I saw a movie about war, They Were Expendable. Never gave it a lot of thought until reading about Eisenhower, and others discussing the number of soldiers killed, and POWS and MIAS. And then, damn it all, they pulled out Ruby Ridge and Waco. We've had drug bust after drug bust at wrong homes, and where no drugs were or are.

Senator Bob Smith, R-NH, was on a mission to try to save POWS/MIAS from the Nam war. He lost out to the likes of mccain and others who preferred to establish free and open trade with viet nam......screw them ol boys who were stupid enough to believe in honorable service to their country!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$ over citizens any ol day of the week. And you have to acknowledge, Cynicom...this current 'war' on terriers has certainly been a financial boon to the whole industrial - military complex, and all the bastards that join hands with them while urinating on the graves of some 2,600+ known dead, and the 20,000 something maimed, not to mention the mental distress of who knows how many of our fellow citizens.

As an aside, I shouldn't have left out all the medical experiments gubmint has done to her citizens--that really shows how much the life of individual citizens matters..........you know the ones.........the black men who were deliberately denied treatment for syphlis....and I can't forget the experimental radiation 'treatments' done without parental or patient consent.

My heart bleeds that this nation has come to this stage---but you know what? It isn't new.......look at how the native americans were treated, and are still being treated.

It's really hard to face the fact that one's government is bad and does evil; and worse yet is having a citizenry unwilling to face the truth and continue to keep looking to it for solutions/etc.

rowdee  posted on  2006-09-10   17:00:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#166. To: BTP Holdings, christine, robin (#156)

This deserves a thread of it's own.

angle  posted on  2006-09-10   22:44:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#167. To: rowdee, ALL (#165)

Government sponsored terrorism is nothing new--in fact it's business as usual.

Alex Jones' TerrorStorm documents it well

christine  posted on  2006-09-10   23:00:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: angle, BTP Holdings (#166)

Not the best source, but some of this very interesting info looks easy enough to verify.

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-09-10   23:13:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#169. To: robin, angle (#168)

Not the best source, but some of this very interesting info looks easy enough to verify.

I saw that info about the Raytheon execs in another location also. And all you need are the copies of the original flight manifests, which I have here, to verify the names.

Flocco isn't always way out there, and he has even come up with a few good scoops. Don't discount him just because there are some whiners and complainers about his track record. Some of these guys on the net operate in the ozone, and that is their trademark. Once in a while they do hit the bullseye. There is lots going on in the country that is very, very hush-hush. And guys like Flocco sometimes hit the mother lode of information that breaks a big story. I wish I could keep up with him. I miss Sherman Skolnick. You can bet there are some real sleaze balls who are glad he is gone.

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-10   23:29:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#170. To: Ferret Mike (#162)

heh-heh That's a good vid and some kick ass music. Reminds me of the old days working the concert gig. ;0)

"Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively, and if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is still no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to new leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past." Richard M. Nixon

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-09-10   23:33:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#171. To: Cynicom (#10)

Did AA77 crash into the Pentagon??? Yes, it certainly did, with 64 souls aboard.

What is the name of the supposed pilot that flew it into the Pentagon Cynicom? Did you look into the fact that the name of the supposed pilot doesn't exist on the flight manifest?

As many have stated later, the ground effect of a 737 flying at 500+ mph would prevent it from descending easily much lower than 50 feet. Without a hard push on the controls to tip the nose down, the plane would not have gone lower. Are you aware of the fact that the plane crashed into the Pentagon with it's nose level, where it was flying with its engines just several feet off the ground as hit the building?

Here's something you might be interested in considering;

Operation Pearl


You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006

FormerLurker  posted on  2006-09-11   21:25:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: Cynicom (#10)

And here's a few interesting eyewitness reports;


Steve Patterson, who lives in Pentagon City, said it appeared to him that a commuter jet swooped over Arlington National Cemetery and headed for the Pentagon "at a frightening rate .‚.‚. just slicing into that building."


Don Wright:

It was about 9:35 and I was looking out .. our 12th floor windows at 1600 Wilson Boulevard, in Rosslyn, Virginia ... and I watched this ...it looked like a commuter plane, two engined ... come down from the south real low ... proceed right on and crash right into the Pentagon.



You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006

FormerLurker  posted on  2006-09-11   21:32:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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