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Title: FBI Agent Posed as White Supremicist for 14 Years (Tied to OKC Bombing)
Source: Associated Press via APFN
URL Source: http://disc.server.com/discussion.c ... 49495;article=80973;title=APFN
Published: Jun 5, 1999
Author: Wendy Nakamura
Post Date: 2005-04-15 00:35:41 by OKCSubmariner
Keywords: Supremicist, Bombing), Agent
Views: 742
Comments: 207

FBI Agent Penetrated Into The Heart of Darkness

WASHINGTON DC (AP) - For almost fourteen years, he lived in a world of hatred, bigotry, and violence.

He attended Klan rallies and meetings of buttoned-down intellectual racists in business suits in the most upmarket hotels. He met and hosted Holocaust deniers like German- Canadian Ernst Zundel and British author David Irving. He was there at cross-burnings and street marches, waving a picket sign or a Confederate battle flag and always shouting the loudest of any among his White supremacist cohorts. He drank beer with Skinhead gangs, swapped jokes with them about African-Americans, Hispanics, and Jews, and heard them plot hate crimes and racial assaults. He cruised the Internet, posting racist messages to computer bulletin boards and newsgroups, making contacts with neo-Nazis and nationalist extremists the world over. He infiltrated the inner councils of almost every top hate group in the United States and even in Europe. He even filed a libel suit against another White supremacist who claimed he was an FBI informant.

But he was.

Last month FBI Special Agent James R. Finchley, a decorated Vietnam veteran and "one of the best and bravest men ever to graduate out of Quantico" according to a former instructor at the world-famous FBI academy who knew him and trained him, came in from the cold at last, after successfully carrying out the longest-running deep-cover infiltration of any criminal or terrorist underworld in the history of American law enforcement.

Finchley's fourteen years in the White racist underground produced only a handful of actual prosecutions, but "that wasn't his primary mission," according to the former director of the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit at Quantico, Kenneth M. Lanning. "He was there to listen and learn, and the wealth of information he obtained for us is beyond price."

"It is not too much to say that we now know virtually everything there is to know about organized race hatred in this country. These guys [White supremacist activists and leaders] couldn't go to the can without us knowing about it," Lanning said.

FBI Director Louis Freeh was not available for comment, but U. S. Attorney General Janet Reno told a reporter, "We usually do not make any public statement on covert operations of this nature until all criminal cases associated with an investigation have been brought to a conclusion, but I will say that Special Agent Finchley displayed uncommon courage, resourcefulness, and initiative in a very complex and often dangerous situation."

Finchley's cover was so deep he is reported to have actually married one woman who was involved in a White supremacist group he wanted to penetrate. On that occasion he went to St. Petersburg, Russia to meet and bring to America a Russian woman who was to be the "mail order bride" of a nationally known White supremacist leader who was banned from entering the country because of his views.

Finchley was so taken with the woman that he persuaded her to marry him instead, allegedly in order to keep her out of the clutches of the racist leader. Soon afterwards he and his Russian wife amicably divorced and Agent Finchley arranged for her to get a green card and relocate to Florida.

Justice Department sources are close-mouthed about many of the details of Finchley's fourteen-year odyssey into the murky underworld of racism and hate. "There are still some loose ends to be tied up, and once this gets out there are going to be some very angry White supremacists out there," said a spokesman for the Department. The source refused to say whether Agent Finchley had been moved into the Witness Protection Program or what measures were being taken to prevent retaliation by Finchley's former comrades in the racist movement.

Possibly the most bizarre event of Finchley's long- running undercover operation was when he was accused of having been involved in the Oklahoma City bombing as "John Doe Number Two" by the editor of a racist newsletter who had long suspected Finchley of being a Federal agent. Finchley took an absolutely unprecedented step: he sued the editor for libel and obtained a 110,000 default judgment when the defendant didn't show up in court to try the case.

"I don't know if he's been successful in collecting any of the money the judge awarded him," said Lanning.

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#1. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t, Refinersfire, Christine, tom007, Fred Mertz, TommyTheMadArtist, lodwick, Brian S, swarthyguy, Uncle Bill, aristeides, itisa1mosttoolate, robin, Diana, Red Jones, honway, MUDDOG, Neil McIver, wakeup, fatidic, Zipporah, CWRWinger, Sparker (#0)

Possibly the most bizarre event of Finchley's long- running undercover operation was when he was accused of having been involved in the Oklahoma City bombing as "John Doe Number Two" by the editor of a racist newsletter who had long suspected Finchley of being a Federal agent.

The editor was at least correct about Finchley being involved as a Federal agent. Now I wonder if Finchley could also have been an FBI provocateur of the OKC bombing??

The White Supremicist compound in far eastern OK, Elohim City, was riddled with FBI operatives and Souterhn Poverty law Center informants who helped and encouraged McVeigh to do the OKC bombing, including Andreas Strassmeyer, Rev Milar, Peter and Tony Ward,Peter Langan as well as a Mr Linny (more to come),Richard Guthrie and Gary D. Hunt. I'll bet FBI agent Finchley knew some of these guys. I wonder how many bombings (OKC?), burnings, murders and robberies Finchley either knew about or took part in to maintain his FBI cover??

OKCSubmariner  posted on  2005-04-15   0:39:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: OKCSubmariner (#0)

Finchley's fourteen years in the White racist underground produced only a handful of actual prosecutions, but "that wasn't his primary mission," according to the former director of the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit at Quantico, Kenneth M. Lanning. "He was there to listen and learn, and the wealth of information he obtained for us is beyond price."

There's the part that caught my eye.

His primary mission wasn't to produce successful prosecutions? IOW, his primary mission wasn't to gather the evidence which would put these dangerous, murderous, white supremacists behind bars where they couldn't hurt the citizens WHO WERE PAYING FINCHLEY'S SALARY??

So then what WAS his primary purpose?? This "wealth of information"--if it was not to be used to GET these dangerous people, what the heck good was it??

IMO, his "primary purpose" was to be an inner link, to link the government with the workings of these groups who knew how to blow people up, create mayhem, scare the populace, create threats which could cow the population into submission--because all of those things are things the government likes to do from time to time, and they figured they might as well harness a few "bad guy" groups to use as fronts for their dirty work. That way, when the disaster du jour happened, the government could reap the "benefits" from it, while avoiding the blame for it.

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   0:55:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: OKCSubmariner (#1)

The White Supremicist compound in far eastern OK, Elohim City, was riddled with FBI operatives and Souterhn Poverty law Center informants who helped and encouraged McVeigh to do the OKC bombing

In other words, the government more or less declared, "If anyone's gonna be going around bombing people, spreading terror, and cowing people into submission, it's gonna be US--not anyone else."

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   0:57:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t, honway, Uncle Bill, Red Jones, itisa1mosttoolate, FredMertz, MUDDOG, aristeides (#2)

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t:

...and they figured they might as well harness a few "bad guy" groups to use as fronts for their dirty work. That way, when the disaster du jour happened, the government could reap the "benefits" from it, while avoiding the blame for it.

Dead on!

The FBI, CIA and US attorneys like Chrtoff also "harnesed" a few Islamic terrorists in the US to do their dirty work too-like the 1993 WTC bombing and the OKC bombing. The Siddiqys, Chafti, Melvin Lattimore were involved in the 1993 WTC and OKC bombings! And the Iraqi suspect Al Hussaini worked for the CIA (brought to OKC by James Woolsey and HW Bush) to encourage and help McVeigh and the FBI never touched him despite many witnesses placing him with McVeigh

Oops, I almost forgot, we are supposed to think that 1993 WTC was a failed sting operation just like OKC , right?? No complicity by the Feds here, right??

OKCSubmariner  posted on  2005-04-15   1:25:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: OKCSubmariner, All (#0)

He cruised the Internet, posting racist messages to computer bulletin boards and newsgroups,

What a surprise, a gov agent posting on forums.....LOL

Any ideas as to where he posted and what his name was?

Flintlock  posted on  2005-04-15   1:29:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Flintlock, h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t, Christine, tom007, Fred Mertz, TommyTheMadArtist, lodwick, Brian S, swarthyguy, Uncle Bill, aristeides, itisa1mosttoolate, robin, Diana, Red Jones, honway, MUDDOG, Neil McIver, wakeup, fatidic, Zipporah, CWRWinger, Sparker (#5)

Any ideas as to where he posted and what his name was?

Don't know, but..

Want to bet we have them on LP and FreeRepublic?

Anyone remember ole "_Jim" at FR who came to LP for a while?

This scheme is so sick it makes me wonder if Jeff Gannon really is an FBI agent who "became" a real male prostitute to "investigate" and "entrap" politicians the FBI wanted to "turn"(sarcasm/ON)??

OKCSubmariner  posted on  2005-04-15   1:45:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: OKCSubmariner (#0)

This is an overwhelming effort on the part of the feds. They paid a huge amount of money to finance this (not that it's out of their pockets).

What was his primary mission? It would seem it was to compile a library of info on so-called white supremists.

But that doesn't add up.

Neil McIver  posted on  2005-04-15   2:23:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: OKCSubmariner (#6)

Want to bet we have them on LP and FreeRepublic?

Anyone remember ole "_Jim" at FR who came to LP for a while?

I don't even look at LP any more. Last time I did I picked out about 8 or 10 comments at random and only 2 or 3 were not mud slinging.

Does it really matter if there are feds posting there?

Neil McIver  posted on  2005-04-15   2:27:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: 1776, wbales (#1)

The editor was at least correct about Finchley being involved as a Federal agent. Now I wonder if Finchley could also have been an FBI provocateur of the OKC bombing??

The White Supremicist compound in far eastern OK, Elohim City, was riddled with FBI operatives and Southern Poverty law Center informants who helped and encouraged McVeigh to do the OKC bombing, including Andreas Strassmeyer, Rev Milar, Peter and Tony Ward,Peter Langan as well as a Mr Linny (more to come),Richard Guthrie and Gary D. Hunt.

ping to article and OKC's comments.

robin  posted on  2005-04-15   3:34:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: OKCSubmariner (#6)

This scheme is so sick it makes me wonder if Jeff Gannon really is an FBI agent who "became" a real male prostitute to "investigate" and "entrap" politicians the FBI wanted to "turn"(sarcasm/ON)??

I think we all wonder. It's a side-effect of reading objectively past the headlines and inbetween the lines; then connecting the dots.

The picture those dots draw gets uglier every month.

robin  posted on  2005-04-15   3:49:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Neil McIver, CWRWinger, OKCSubmariner (#7)

This is an overwhelming effort on the part of the feds. They paid a huge amount of money to finance this (not that it's out of their pockets).

What was his primary mission? It would seem it was to compile a library of info on so-called white supremists.

But that doesn't add up.

There was a post by CWRWinger this week from a 2003 article stating that most of the so-called white supremacist organizations are/were actually Constitutional groups.

********** link to post

Here's a clip from "The Southern Mercury", 2003:

CREATING HATE WHERE NONE EXISTS Over the years Morris Dees and the SPLC have searched diligently for "hate groups" to expose and then use in fundraising schemes. Many of the targeted groups are not "hate groups" at all; some exist only on paper, or only consist of a hand full of members. That hasn't stopped the SPLC. Soon after the infamous Oklahoma City bombing by Timothy McVeigh, the SPLC mailed out a solicitation linking McVeigh to "militia groups." In the best traditions of "yellow journalism" the SPLC screamed that the "militia movement" counted perhaps 40,000 members, mostly armed, and a majority linked to the Klan.(30) But subsequently Federal investigators found no connection between McVeigh and any militia group. Indeed, researcher Laird Wilcox estimated that members in such groups numbered only around 7,000, and most of them were not focussed on race or violence, but on constitutional issues.(31) An FBI spokesman added that his agency did not regard the militia movement as a danger.(32)

********************

robin  posted on  2005-04-15   4:23:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#2)

You're not a h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t. You have a fully performing logical mind.

Itisa1mosttoolate  posted on  2005-04-15   7:10:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: OKCSubmariner (#1)

Finchleys' ancestor was probably Judus.

Itisa1mosttoolate  posted on  2005-04-15   7:13:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: OKCSubmariner (#0)

    "It is not too much to say that we now know virtually everything there is to know about organized race hatred in this country. These guys [White supremacist activists and leaders] couldn't go to the can without us knowing about it," Lanning said.

This is an accurate statement, of course. As, only whites hate..

Jhoffa_  posted on  2005-04-15   7:18:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: OKCSubmariner (#0)

he probably couldn't have gotten away with it, had he been infiltrating any other group...

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   7:52:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Continental Op (#15)

Those meddling kids strike again.

Dakmar  posted on  2005-04-15   7:53:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: OKCSubmariner (#1)

The editor was at least correct about Finchley being involved as a Federal agent. Now I wonder if Finchley could also have been an FBI provocateur of the OKC bombing??

The White Supremicist compound in far eastern OK, Elohim City, was riddled with FBI operatives and Souterhn Poverty law Center informants who helped and encouraged McVeigh to do the OKC bombing, including Andreas Strassmeyer, Rev Milar, Peter and Tony Ward,Peter Langan as well as a Mr Linny (more to come),Richard Guthrie and Gary D. Hunt. I'll bet FBI agent Finchley knew some of these guys. I wonder how many bombings (OKC?), burnings, murders and robberies Finchley either knew about or took part in to maintain his FBI cover??

Not the least bit surprising.. I wouldn't be surprised if NONE of these "hate" crimes or incidents would occur if it weren't for these agent provocateurs.. they seem to be a catalyst for these crimes.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   7:54:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Zipporah (#17)

I forget who it was, but someone once said there are only two types of Klan members - gas station attendents and government informants. The government people are easy to spot, they're the ones paying membership dues.

Dakmar  posted on  2005-04-15   7:57:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Flintlock (#5)

What a surprise, a gov agent posting on forums.....LOL

Any ideas as to where he posted and what his name was?

Uh huh.. isn't it though.. they are propogandists typically they take an extreme position either they're bots or some whacko hate type.. what a slimey way to make a living.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   7:57:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: OKCSubmariner (#0)

"It is not too much to say that we now know virtually everything there is to know about organized race hatred in this country. These guys [White supremacist activists and leaders] couldn't go to the can without us knowing about it," Lanning said.

Taxpayers are unwittingly supporting the internal terrorist activities of the U.S. Govt. to an extent that probably exceeds the expense of external terrorism activities of the U.S. and Israeli Governments.

In some instances, the CIA, Mossad and FBI make up the majority of "racists" in the groups they are allegedly investigating, and are generally the provacative element within the groups.

The key word in the above statement is "organized" ...

noone222  posted on  2005-04-15   8:03:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Dakmar (#18)

I forget who it was, but someone once said there are only two types of Klan members - gas station attendents and government informants. The government people are easy to spot, they're the ones paying membership dues.

No doubt.. and the gas station attendants haven't got the $$ or the brains to plan and fund the criminal activities. As I've said before anyone would be totally nuts to join any of those groups..but then again you're talking gas station attendants.. probably 3/4 of them are agents.. And if they can't get them to commit crimes they do what they did to Randy Weaver etc.. ..hey they need convictions afterall they must meet the quota!

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   8:03:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Zipporah (#21)

hey they need convictions afterall they must meet the quota!

The truth is they have to justify their existence !

noone222  posted on  2005-04-15   8:11:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: noone222 (#22)

The truth is they have to justify their existence !

Seems so.. I wonder if the attack on the Murrah building wouldve ever even happened if the agents hadnt been involved?

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   8:12:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Continental Op, Dakmar (#15)

he probably couldn't have gotten away with it, had he been infiltrating any other group...

Really a profound remark. Really. I take it Agent Finchley is a white male? Aren't the majority of U.S. government agents white males?

Finchley would never have been able to sustain 14 years of fooling some Arab group. At some point, somewhere, someone in the group would have thought, "This guy's a westerner, not a middle easterner... why is he such a gung-ho participant in OUR group?"

But the FBI males can be made to be indistinguishable from the "white supremacist" males. Why is this? Isn't it because they share a similar ethnic and genetic heritage? So why is it so farfetched to think that, when such groups turn themselves to evil, they might come up with the very same ideas?

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   8:15:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Zipporah (#23)

I wonder if the attack on the Murrah building wouldve ever even happened if the agents hadnt been involved?

Well ... we have court testimony to prove that the original WTC Bombing couldn't have happened without FBI participation, since it's acknowledged that the FBI built the Bomb.

noone222  posted on  2005-04-15   8:16:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Zipporah (#17)

I wouldn't be surprised if NONE of these "hate" crimes or incidents would occur if it weren't for these agent provocateurs.. they seem to be a catalyst for these crimes.

I think you're right. We are encouraged to remember that, if one lone person doing crimes due to racial hatred is a horror, then an organized group of persons doing crimes due to racial hatred is a horror 10 times worse... this, in spite of the fact that seldom, if ever, do we ever actually see persons organizing to do crimes for any reason other than MONEY.

Which brings us to the rogue agents of the CIA...

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   8:18:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: noone222 (#25)

Well ... we have court testimony to prove that the original WTC Bombing couldn't have happened without FBI participation, since it's acknowledged that the FBI built the Bomb.

I wasnt aware of that .. WTF? How many people were injured in that attack? I remember seeing footage of people leaving the buildings being overcome by smoke.. how many people's health were destroyed by that and their livelihoods ruined? What are we living in the fricking Matrix?

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   8:29:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t, ALL (#26)

Which brings us to the rogue agents of the CIA...

Every "Intelligence" Agency on Planet Earth works for the International Banking Cabal ... and so do you if you participate in the system through mortgages, credit cards, checking and savings accounts etc.,

Not only do you pay for this shit when you participate in the Taxing process, but everytime you pay interest on loans. The spider ain't got shit on the International Parasitic Bankers when it comes to weaving a web of entrapment.

How can we continue to blame others for our demise ? There was a song (Symphony for the Devil) that stated "who killed the Kennedy's, when after all it was YOU and ME" ???

To harp about the spies, the politicians and general government while continuing to pay their salaries is just a waste of breath and intellectual dishonety ... HYPOCRISY.

noone222  posted on  2005-04-15   8:29:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: OKCSubmariner (#6)

Want to bet we have them on LP and FreeRepublic?

Nope

Anyone remember ole "_Jim" at FR who came to LP for a while?

_Jim, the *Star* of the donkey show.

Flintlock  posted on  2005-04-15   8:30:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#26)

I think you're right. We are encouraged to remember that, if one lone person doing crimes due to racial hatred is a horror, then an organized group of persons doing crimes due to racial hatred is a horror 10 times worse... this, in spite of the fact that seldom, if ever, do we ever actually see persons organizing to do crimes for any reason other than MONEY.

Which brings us to the rogue agents of the CIA...

And it sure is a good way to get the sheep to accept hate crime legislation.. the thought police are alive and well ..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   8:33:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Zipporah (#27)

Court Testimony that was reported in the New York Times by a paid FBI Informant that wore a wire for self-protection, said that he offered to use fake chemicals to build a fake bomb, but was ordered to use the real stuff and make a real Bomb. [Alex Jones has reported this many times].

A side note to this is that a company named "TRI-DATA" was CONTRACTED" to do the clean up of the original bombing at the WTC. TRI-DATA is a subsidiary of "SYSTEMS PLANNING CORP" whose CEO was none other than DOV ZAKHEIM, the Rabbinically trained PNAC signatory and former Pentagon Comptroller who came up a TRILLION DOLLARS short on his watch, inexplicably resigned, and now works for a company I can't recall the name of but is BIG on GOVERNMENT LOBBYING.

SYSTEMS PLANNING CORP designs builds and installs "REMOTE CONTROL DEVICES FOR LARGE AIRCRAFT" ... the handwriting is on the wall.

noone222  posted on  2005-04-15   8:36:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#24)

"Really a profound remark. Really. I take it Agent Finchley is a white male? Aren't the majority of U.S. government agents white males?"

what you are saying is, that this guy's "whiteness" was the only reason he survived so long, undercover?"

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   8:38:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Itisa1mosttoolate (#12)

Thanks! (My name is but a pale imitation of the name of that great intellect, r- u-n-n-i-n-g-s-o-r-e--did I get the spelling of that right?--of LP and Assclown Posse.)

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   9:03:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: robin, OKCSubmariner (#11)

Here's a clip from "The Southern Mercury", 2003:

If you'd like, I'll post the entire article which includes the notes and references for its sources.

CWRWinger  posted on  2005-04-15   9:07:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: noone222 (#20)

In some instances, the CIA, Mossad and FBI make up the majority of "racists" in the groups they are allegedly investigating, and are generally the provacative element within the groups.

You know, it's a really inspired system, isn't it?

1. Note the more vulgar ideas/complaints of the lower-level members of the population.

2.Help to organize some of those lower-level people into groups (using taxpayer money).

3. Help, or push, the lower-level people do some "terror"(using taxpayer money).

4. Fear and loathing occurs between different segments of the population.

5. Swoop in (using taxpayer money), as a white knight, to "protect" everyone from the groups whose principal members are YOU.

6. You look like the good guys, the people are too afraid to give you a lot of trouble as you rob them blind(using taxpayer money), and you control the population(using taxpayer money).

And you get to make the people pay the expenses you incur while terrorizing them, controlling them, and robbing them blind. What could be more perfect?

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   9:12:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Continental Op (#32)

what you are saying is, that this guy's "whiteness" was the only reason he survived so long, undercover?"

Yes. He fit right in with them. He fit in with them so well, he was able to keep fooling them for 14 years.

Is it too farfetched to assume that, in many ways, he thought as they did? He acted as they did? He was really not so different from them?

Up above somewhere noone222 quoted the song "Sympathy For The Devil". Another line from it is "every cop is a criminal". I am not saying that every cop is a criminal, but I can't help but notice that this FBI man fit in perfectly with a "white supremacist" group for 14 years. Is he really so different from them?

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   9:20:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#36)

Is he really so different from them?

Yes, I can see him fooling you too. You are looking at this from the wrong angle. The question is not whether he could expertly blend in with those people. That's a given. The question is whether his m.o. would have completely passed muster with them.

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   9:50:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Itisa1mosttoolate, h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#12)

i told halfwitt the same thing. it's obvious the choice of sobriquet is not apropos and a take off of someone who is halfwitted!

christine  posted on  2005-04-15   9:53:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: All (#37)

this guy couldn't have possibly remained completely undercover for fourteen years. He had to come up for air occassional (and figuratively, for the benefit of posters whose screen names happen to begin with H.) He had to do debriefs, reports ect...If one is familiar with past FBI undercover operations of this sort, one will clearly see that a clandestine pattern is ritually followed.

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   9:55:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Itisa1mosttoolate (#12)

You're not a h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t.

that is debatable.

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   9:56:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Zipporah (#19)

what a slimey way to make a living.

You know it.

Flintlock  posted on  2005-04-15   10:09:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: CWRWinger (#34)

Here's a clip from "The Southern Mercury", 2003:

If you'd like, I'll post the entire article which includes the notes and references for its sources.

That would be great, thanks!

robin  posted on  2005-04-15   10:12:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: OKCSubmariner (#1)

Souterhn Poverty law Center informants

I have discovered there is an internship agreement between Harvard and the SPLC.Harvard sends students to the SPLC. Some of these "students" go out in the field to do "research" on Southern groups. But all they are doing is gathering info for the gov't.

I also have a theory about Dees and the SPLC and the gov't. They blackmail each other and use information as leverage on each other, within their own gov't supremacist circle. (Just a theory, no documented evidence to support it. Just connecting a few dots.)

CWRWinger  posted on  2005-04-15   10:20:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: robin (#42)

The article is long, but I'll post it.

CWRWinger  posted on  2005-04-15   10:21:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Continental Op (#37)

The question is whether his m.o. would have completely passed muster with them.

No. The question I was considering was whether he THINKS just as they do, and whether he is pretty much indistinguishable from them.

But, okay, let's consider YOUR question. Do you think his m.o. would have completely passed muster with them? Once we've decided on a "yes" or a "no" to this question, tell us what further insight that gives us (if any).

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   10:21:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#45)

you've got a short attention span and I've got a life, so lets forget it, shall we?

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   10:23:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Dakmar (#18)

there are only two types of Klan members - gas station attendents and government informants. The government people are easy to spot, they're the ones paying membership dues.

I am inclined to agree with you. To my knowledge I have only met one KKK member. It was at one of my first jobs, at a social service agency in East San Diego. He had just arrived from one of the Carolinas, w/o a job, w/o $ and ILLITERATE. (It felt like the '30s during the Dust Bowl or somethin').

I had also never met anyone who was illiterate; a stellar day. In the course of filling out forms (this was a govt funded social service agency, so of course there were forms), when asked what organizations he belonged to, he replied the Klu Klux Klan. He was deadpan serious. I remember having to explain to him how to get to his job interview, w/o street signs. What a trip! I saw him again a year later, at a Southern Baptist church function; he was engaged.

robin  posted on  2005-04-15   10:25:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: robin (#42)

Reprinted, Courtesy of The Southern Mercury magazine, Premiere issue, 2003

THE ISSUE AND SOME QUESTIONS

In the late 1990s what is perhaps the most powerful and professional "anti- hate" civil rights pressure group in the United States--the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC)--began targeting and attacking the Sons of Confederate Veterans, its leaders, and initiatives. In "exposes" published in the SPLC's quarterly journal Intelligence Report, in training courses offered to hundreds of law enforcement agents across the nation, and in its self-erected position as a "source" for "background" on "hate groups" to national media outlets such as CNN, ABC, and CBS News, this powerful group began lumping the SCV together not only with other respectable heritage organizations (such as the League of the South), but with "the Klan" and skinheads. The SCV was, said the SPLC, increasingly dominated by "neo-Confederates." The SCV's campaign, for instance, to retain the CSA battle flag atop the South Carolina capital building, the SPLC termed "sometimes ugly" and various SCV leaders were called "racists" or "white supremacists." (1)

Why has the Southern Poverty Law Center unleashed these attacks? Just what is this powerful "civil rights" group, and who is its controversial leader Morris Seligman Dees? Why is the SPLC so highly regarded by law enforcement? Members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans and open-minded citizens need to understand and answer these questions. And educators and the news media should closely examine their reliance on the SPLC for "facts" or "background" when reporting stories relating to Southern and Confederate heritage.

First, a little history is in order.

THE ROLE OF THE SCV

In 1906 Confederate veteran General Stephen D. Lee addressed the national convention of the Sons of Confederate Veterans in New Orleans, placing before them what would be known henceforth as the "charge," summarizing the purposes and goals of the Sons (then a relatively new organization only ten years old). Those brief words of General S. D. Lee bear repeating:

To you, Sons of Confederate Veterans, we will commit the vindication of the cause for which we fought. To your strength will be given the defense of the Confederate soldier's good name, the guardianship of his history, the emulation of his virtues, the perpetuation of those principles which he loved and which you love also, and those ideals which made him glorious and which you also cherish.

For the first seventy-five years of its existence the SCV was mostly concerned with memory, with keeping alive the memory of the exploits and accomplishments of our ancestors; with commemorating their service and sacrifice; with retelling their momentous odyssey in books and articles and speeches; and in inspiring new generations of Southerners (and Americans generally) to emulate their virtues. By the 1970s and 1980s many of the symbols and much of the history that Southern folk had taken for granted over the years began to be questioned, disputed, and attacked. Indeed, Southern and Confederate culture, itself, came under a barrage of assaults on many fronts. Many in the so- called "civil rights" movements of the 1960s were not content to simply press for reasonable legal and constitutional changes; rather, some saw the resulting upheaval as an opportunity to demolish and eliminate just about ALL of Confederate culture and heritage--and to make some money in the process. Like the English bands that played "The World Turned Upside Down" at Yorktown in 1781, Southerners witnessed their world turned upside down and the denigration of almost anything and everything "Confederate."

Prior to 1990 the SCV had concentrated most of its efforts on the goal of commemorating Confederate veterans, their history and heritage, and in telling their story. But Stephen D. Lee's charge demanded that latter-day sons also, when required, defend the PRINCIPLES that their forefathers advanced. What are those principles that General Lee referred to? The late historian/author Professor M. E. Bradford, among others, summed them up: a belief that tradition should be our guide constitutionally and socially, a stout defense of the rights of the states, a strongly religious conception of civil society, a reliance on communities and families as basic to society and the social order, and opposition to egalitarianism politically and socially. All of our ancestors would have subscribed to these tenets, whether "old" Whig or Democrat, "fire- eater" or "conservative."

Increasingly, throughout the 1990s to the present the SCV has been forced to defend the principles about which General Lee spoke and three hundred thousand Southern boys gave their lives to defend. Composed of lineal descendants of the veterans of 1861-1865, the SCV is the largest Southern heritage organization in the nation, and it occupies a unique position in the increasingly bitter battle for Southern and Confederate heritage and culture. The defense of that heritage has brought the SCV squarely into conflict with those who not only want to eliminate Southern symbols, but who also wish to purge and destroy Southern culture itself, the Southern way of life. Those symbols will cease to have meaning if the culture and heritage they represent, the ideas they stand for, are no longer celebrated, believed, and felt. That is why the SCV has not only stoutheartedly opposed such things as the lowering of historic flags from official buildings and the elimination of "rebel" mascots, but has also assisted Southern citizens and students whose rights, culture, and heritage have been attacked and imperiled.

ENTER THE SPLC: Who is Morris Dees?

Morris Seligman Dees was born in Alabama and received a law degree from the University of Alabama. One of his earliest associates was Millard Fuller, who would later found Habitat for Humanity. In 1960 Fuller and Dees formed the law partnership of Dees and Fuller in Montgomery. Their object, as Fuller expresses it in two autobiographical volumes, was "to get rich" and get rich quick. They did this through any number of enterprises: selling cookbooks, toothbrushes, tractor cushions--anything that would make money. (2) In his book Love In the Mortar Joints Fuller states: "Morris Dees and I, from the first day of our partnership, shared one overriding purpose: to make a pile of money. We were not particular about how we did it; we just wanted to be independently rich. During the eight years we worked together we never wavered in that resolve." But Fuller grew disenchanted with that lifestyle: "But everything has a price," he recounts. "And I paid for our success in several ways. One price I paid was estrangement from the church." (3) In a few years Fuller left the partnership and dedicated his life to a new, more altruistic cause: Habitat for Humanity.

Dees, meanwhile, began raking in the bucks--and seeking to make friends in high places. While segregation was still the law of the land he had supported and worked in a campaign for Governor George Wallace, and his law firm was involved in defending a man charged with beating one of the Freedom Riders during the 1961 Montgomery "freedom" bus rides. The legal fee, states Fuller, "was paid by the Klan and the White Citizen's Council."(4)

But times were changing, and Morris Dees could read the signs. By 1971 Dees had been "reborn" as "defender" of civil rights; in that year he, Julian Bond, and Joseph Levin founded the Southern Poverty Law Center to serve as a "civil rights law firm" and promote social justice. (Bond would resign from the SPLC when it became apparent that his presence was deterring contributions by liberal Jewish donors) (5) In 1972 Dees served as a fundraiser for presidential candidate George McGovern and proved extremely adept at direct-mail solicitations; according to journalist John Edgerton in an article, "Poverty Palace: How the SPLC Got Rich Fighting the Klan," published in the liberal magazine The Progressive, Dees raised some $24 million for the McGovern campaign.(6) By 1975 Morris Dees had established himself (and the SPLC) as a leading light among "professional" civil rights advocates.

THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS: The Joan Little Case and Beyond

A major opportunity for national prominence came Morris Dees' way in 1975 with the infamous Joan Little case in Washington, North Carolina. The facts of the case were well reported at the time: Little, a black woman and convicted felon, was apparently approached by her white jailor for sexual favors, whereupon she stabbed and killed him with an ice pick. The case immediately was made a cause celebre by leftwing groups and the Communist Party and by a sympathetic press nationwide. Dees and the SPLC were involved in Little's defense, along with another high-profile "professional" civil rights attorney, Jerry Paul. Paul boasted that the defense team had "orchestrated the press." As correspondent Mark Pinsky later wrote in the Columbia Journalism Review, "…the great untold (or unreported) story of the Joan Little trial, which I first learned from the members of the defense law firm and defense committee [italics mine], was the role of the Communist Party…controlling the entire (and considerable) political movement surrounding the case [….] Party members were visible and influential on the defense committee…."(7) Rallies in support of Little raised large sums of money, despite, states Pinsky, "persistent charges of large-scale [financial] mismanagement and misappropriation…."(8)

During the trial Dees revealed just how far he was ready to go to succeed. He attempted to bribe a witness---suborn perjury. He was arrested and removed from the court. While the felony charge was later dropped, presiding judge Hamilton Hobgood refused to re-admit Dees to the case, a refusal that was upheld on appeal when the U.S. Supreme Court refused to hear his appeal.(9)

The 1975 perjury arrest was not the last time that Dees and the SPLC would be charged with bribing a witness to advance an agenda. In 1990 Dees and the SPLC sued well-known West Coast racialist Tom Metzger with the object of putting Metzger and his various enterprises out of business by destroying him financially. This famous case, "putting hate on trial" as it was called by the media, involved charges that Metzger inspired skinheads to fatally beat an Ethiopian immigrant. Greg Withrow and David Mazella were prosecution witnesses for Dees. Withrow also described in lurid detail how he himself was nailed to a cross on August 8, 1987. Because of his testimony Withrow became something of a celebrity; he appeared on the "Oprah" Winfree program and was sponsored on an "anti-hate" tour by the Anti-Defamation League.(10) But in a report published on August 25, 2001, The San Diego Union-Tribune revealed that Withrow had recanted his testimony and that he was suing Dees, the SPLC, and the ADL for $32 million in damages. Withrow declared that the story of the crucifixion was fabricated, and additionally that Dees paid him $1,500 for perjured testimony in the trial; he added that Dees also paid the other prosecution witness, David Mazella, as well.(11) Charges of perjury are not the only legal problems that Morris Dees has had. In 1979 Maureene Bass Dees, his ex-wife, sued him, alleging instances when Dees had committed incest with his stepdaughter and future daughter-in-law. At least once he was alleged to have engaged in homosexual conduct.(12)

USING HATE TO GET RICH: Dees the Hustler

In his two autobiographical volumes, Love In the Mortar Joints and Bokotola, Habitat for Humanity founder Millard Fuller offers a fascinating portrait of Morris Dees, a man on the make, a man whose goal was to make money, and lots of it, and to have friends in high places. Although the Southern Poverty Law Center was founded ostensibly as a "civil rights" organization to do such things as defend prisoners who faced the death penalty or sue on behalf of those suffering from discrimination, the Dees organization quickly became the richest and most powerful organization of its kind in the United States. According to investigative journalist Ken Silverstein in a major report published in Harper's Magazine (November, 2000) the SPLC counted (in 2000) assets of well over $120 million.(13) Most of this is raised through direct mail solicitations, and very little of it is spent on behalf of the "poor, downtrodden, and oppressed." Most of the solicited millions remain in the hands of Dees and the SPLC. In 1998 the American Institute of Philanthropy, which evaluates the stewardship of charitable organizations, gave the SPLC an "F" rating in its administration of its funds.(14) A former associate, Millard Farmer, has stated: "He's the Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker of the civil rights movement, though I don't mean to malign Jim and Tammy Faye."(15)

Let's examine the methods of Dees and the SPLC.

From its beginning the SPLC created an easy target: the Ku Klux Klan. Never mind that the Klan, by the late 1970s and 1980s, was splintered into dozens of dwindling groups, down to less than 2,000 members nationwide, with almost no power or influence. As Ken Silverstein relates, "the news of a declining Klan does not make for inclining donations to Morris Dees and Co., which is why the SPLC honors nearly every nationally covered 'hate crime' with direct-mail alarums full of nightmarish invocations of armed Klan paramilitary forces' and 'violent neo-Nazi extremists,' and why Dees does legal battle with almost exclusively with mediagenic villains…." (16) In his famous lawsuit against the United Klans of America in 1987, Dees won a judgment of $7 million on behalf of Beulah Mae Donald, whose son had been killed by individual Klansmen. The Klan's total assets amounted to one warehouse, the sale of which netted Donald damages of $51,875. But the SPLC in a direct-mail campaign implied that it was forcing the Klan to pay Mrs. Donald the full amount. It used the Donald killing (including a lurid photograph of her dead son) to raise an additional $9 million. Mrs. Donald got nothing.(17)

In February 1994 two investigative reporters for The Montgomery Advertiser, Dan Morse and Greg Jaffe, published a revelatory series of articles on the SPLC, Morris Dees, and their fundraising tactics.(18) According to three former SPLC attorneys interviewed for the series, Dees selected the Klan as a target because he knew that it would bring in tens of millions of dollars from conscience-ridden liberals across the nation. "The fundraising letters would make it seem to people who really didn't know the South as if the Klan was out of control…And so he (Dees) could get Northerners who really didn't know much about the South to give him money," Deborah Ellis, former SPLC attorney told The Montgomery Advertiser reporters. "The market is still wide open for the product, which is black pain and white guilt," the article quotes Gloria Browne, another former SPLC attorney, as saying.(19)

The Montgomery Advertiser's reporters found that because of his fundraising practices a number of Dees' associates left the SPLC in disgust. Former SPLC associate Courtney Mullin declared of Dees, that he is "…not immoral, he's amoral…I hesitate to say the words that I want to say because they sound so far out, but I really think the Center--in so far as Morris embodies the Center--is evil. They pretend to be on a side that has moral underpinnings (but) they do damage by their dishonesty….I mean the little old lady from North Carolina sends her $5 thinking that she's going to help…then it's just going to line the coffers of the Southern Poverty Law Center so they can have the most beautiful building in the world and have all this money in the bank. That's wrong."(20) In 1986 the SPLC's entire legal staff resigned in protest over Dees' refusal to address the issues of homelessness, voter registration, and affirmative action which they considered more important to poor minorities-but much less lucrative than appealing to largely white benefactors about the evils of the Klan.(21)

In fact, according to another story published in The Birmingham News, the SPLC had few minority employees on its staff and the ones working there were unhappy. (22) Over its nearly three decades of operation the SPLC had hired only two black attorneys, both of whom had left disillusioned. Of the thirteen former black employees interviewed by The Montgomery Advertiser, twelve complained of racial problems while at the SPLC, problems which ranged from a paternalistic attitude to racial slurs.(23)

The SPLC spends twice as much (1999 figures) on fundraising as it does on legal services for civil rights abuse "victims."(24) In a random survey of regular donors who contributed to the SPLC, The Montgomery Advertiser found that most had no idea the Center was so wealthy. Indeed, the American Institute of Philanthropy estimates that the SPLC could operate normally for almost five years without raising one additional tax-exempt penny from well-meaning donors! (25) Despite its affluence the Center files relatively few lawsuits against "hate" groups, and those are generally high profile, money making ones. Yet the SPLC continues to solicit contributions "aggressively and effectively." Reporters Morse and Jaffe report that "three nationwide organizations that monitor charities have criticized the Law Center for misleading donors and spending too little on programs."(26)

The rash of alleged Southern black church burnings in 1996 gave Morris Dees and the SPLC another opportunity to use supposed "hate" for profit. At the time he claimed that the burnings were the work of a conspiracy of Southern "white extremists" [the Klan and others of like mind]. But subsequent investigation by a federal commission found no conspiracy; in fact, most of the burnings had nothing to do with "white extremists" at all. The Charlotte Observer concluded that Dees and the SPLC had "misinformed the media."(27) Reporter Andrea Stone in USA Today admitted that, "…some black civil rights leaders…say Dees raises millions by exaggerating the threat of hate groups. For instance, in a recent report on arsons at black churches in the South, his…newsletter included five 1990 fires in Kentucky. The article doesn't mention they were set by a black man."(28) No wonder another Dees associate, Stephen Bight of the Southern Center for Human Rights, said of Dees, "[he] is a fraud who has milked a lot of very wonderful well-intentioned people. If it's got headlines, Morris is there."(29)

CREATING HATE WHERE NONE EXISTS

Over the years Morris Dees and the SPLC have searched diligently for "hate groups" to expose and then use in fundraising schemes. Many of the targeted groups are not "hate groups" at all; some exist only on paper, or only consist of a hand full of members. That hasn't stopped the SPLC. Soon after the infamous Oklahoma City bombing by Timothy McVeigh, the SPLC mailed out a solicitation linking McVeigh to "militia groups." In the best traditions of "yellow journalism" the SPLC screamed that the "militia movement" counted perhaps 40,000 members, mostly armed, and a majority linked to the Klan.(30) But subsequently Federal investigators found no connection between McVeigh and any militia group. Indeed, researcher Laird Wilcox estimated that members in such groups numbered only around 7,000, and most of them were not focussed on race or violence, but on constitutional issues.(31) An FBI spokesman added that his agency did not regard the militia movement as a danger.(32)

More recently the SPLC claimed that Ohio had become a hotbed for rightwing "hate" groups. It listed forty such groups in the state, while a similar organization, the Center for New Community, declared that seventy- three "hate" groups had set up shop in the Buckeye State. David Martin, an investigative reporter for the Cleveland Scene checked those claims and found them woefully exaggerated and disingenuous. Instead of the "haven for hate" claimed by the SPLC, Martin found that most of the cited groups were marginal, minuscule, and practically non-existent. One of the "groups" listed was a ninety-year-old sight-impaired man who had once published a newsletter.(33) Asked about the prevalence of such groups in the state, Ted Almay, superintendent of the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation, replied: "I don't think there are 73 people in Ohio, let alone 73 groups" that fit that definition.(34) But don't ask the SPLC to tell the real story when a money-raising exaggeration will do.

REACHING STUDENTS AND LAW ENFORCEMENT

One method the SPLC uses to spread its "anti-hate" message is its highly advertised "Teaching Tolerance" educational kit for schools and parent groups. Featuring a curriculum suitable for all levels in the classroom, "Teaching Tolerance" is touted as a $325 value "absolutely free to any school on request"- -but for the taker, only "at cost"--that is, $30 a kit.(35) Instructional materials for teachers train them on how to completely remold--perhaps the word should be "brainwash"--their students by combating "hate" speech, various stereotypes, religious "bias," and so on. One element, titled appropriately, "I Spy Sexism," encourages students to become "conditioned" to recognize "sexism, racism, classism, and homophobia" among their fellow classmates and denounce it and "do something." Another element encourages "creating a safe environment for gay and lesbian students." Traditional norms of behavior and traditional religion are attacked as intolerant and prejudiced. There is even a component titled "Writing for Change," that is aimed at fighting prejudice and discrimination by "deconstructing" the English language and the manner in which we write sentences--so as to avoid "hierarchy" and "avoid assumptions based on factors like age and race." Students are exhorted to explore "the impact of homophobia and heterosexism" in writing, while encouraged to become aware of "perceptions of diversity."(36) "Teaching Tolerance" is a supreme example of the SPLC raising hundreds of thousands of dollars from well-intentioned educators and parents while spreading cultural Marxism to thousands of America's schoolrooms.

For years the SPLC has offered propaganda and programs to train law enforcement to recognize and deal with "hate groups." Recently, the SPLC, in collaboration with Auburn University-Montgomery and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) launched an online "hate-crime" training course. The course, "Introduction to Hate and Bias Crimes," offers law enforcement officials college credit and continuing education credits, as well as official FLETC recognition. For a mere $118 (with the SPLC providing scholarships of up to 50% of the cost) qualified law enforcement personnel can enroll in the online semester course.(37) No doubt the officers will be "sensitized" appropriately through the ministrations of Dees and company.

NO ENEMIES ON THE LEFT

The SPLC is a self-proclaimed defender of civil rights and "watchdog" against "hate" and "extremism," but what strikes many observers as curious is that just about all of the group's enemies are on the political right-wing. And, indeed, as the list of tried-and-true familiar targets--the Klan (now practically moribund), Aryan Nations (similarly almost non-existent), and various skinhead groups--becomes less and less credible, the SPLC has widened its reach and attempted to tie in conservative groups like the Council of Conservative Citizens and the League of the South: these groups and others like them have become the "new" Klans, grist for the SPLC's direct-mail solicitations! Legitimate and mainstream questions such as immigration policy, English as our national language, gay rights, abortion, and "multiculturalism" now figure in SPLC Intelligence Reports as criteria for determining if someone or some group is "extreme" or "racist" or not.(38)

Ominously, the SPLC has also begun to aim its judicial venom at orthodox Christians. In a letter dated July 16, 2002, Dees outlined to a representative of the Americans United for Separation of Church and State a legal strategy to attack and defame Judge Roy Moore, the famous Alabama judge who placed a Ten Commandments monument in the halls of the Alabama State Supreme Court. In his comments Dees details a plan to portray Judge Moors as a "bigot" and a "lone religious nut in partnership with a fanatical church [Dr. D. James Kennedy and the Presbyterian Church in America!]. This is the story that will make this case so dirty that no appeals court will reverse [it]…."(39) Interestingly enough, although numerous left-wing organizations promote class hatred and racial antagonism, such groups normally don't appear on the SPLC's web site as "hate" groups. The SPLC even endorses the work of some extreme left- wing organizations, terming them "human rights" groups. Researcher Laird Wilcox gives examples of two such radical left groups, the Center for Democratic Renewal of Atlanta and the Political Research Associates of Somerville, Massachusetts, both of which have had identifiable and long-time Marxist connections.(40)

"LINKISM" AND VICARIOUS LIABILITY

Even more disturbing perhaps are some of the SPLC's legal tactics. The Center has long been notorious for suing (and bankrupting) an entire organization for the actions of a lone, individual member or members. Its lawsuits against Aryan Nations, the United Klans of America, and the Tom Metzger organization fall into that category. Such practices--termed legally "vicarious liability"-- should cause serious alarm with civil libertarians, as Ken Silverstein recounts in Harper's. The SPLC is also notorious for spying and preparing dossiers on private citizens who are supposedly "linked" to "hate" groups and then sharing its "files" on these "hate-mongers" with law enforcement agencies and a receptive news media.(41) Favorite SPLC "spokesmen" such as publications editor Mark Potok show up repeatedly in print and on the air to offer "comment" on individuals and groups named on the SPLC's laundry list of "hate" organizations. In many cases, such comments are taken as gospel and there is little opportunity to rebut the criticism once uttered. Once the charge is made, it is difficult to explain or counter the (mis-) information.

The SPLC skillfully employs what can be termed "linkism." The tactic of "linkism" is simple: publish a list of individual members of one organization, indicate their personal memberships (even if long expired or only nominal) in other organizations, identify these other organizations as "hate" groups, and, voila, the first organization becomes, ipso facto, a "hate" organization as well. In other words, targeted individuals are guilty by association. How is this different from the worst kind of witch-hunting?

THE SONS OF CONFEDERATE VETERANS: SPLC's New Target

Recently the SPLC has begun to direct these tactics against the Sons of Confederate Veterans. Certain prominent members of the organization have been targeted--placed between the crosshairs would better describe it. Dossiers have obviously been prepared, shaped accordingly with the "facts" carefully skewed to place the members in the worst possible light. Negative and unflattering "exposes" are next published in the SPLC's Intelligence Report and then "picked up" by an amenable (or willingly collaborative) press. In its Summer 2000 issue the Intelligence Report published two major attack articles, both implying that the SCV was being taken over by what it termed "neo- Confederates": "A neo-Confederate movement, increasingly rife with white supremacists and racist ideology," it cries, "is growing across America."(42) Both the SCV and the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC) were being transformed into "white supremacist" groups in contradistinction to what the SPLC defines as their historic purpose of being "interested only in Civil War remembrance."(43) The SPLC apparently has not read General Stephen D. Lee's charge to the Sons, or perhaps it doesn't understand that the SCV defends the honor of its Confederate ancestors not just by "remembering them," but by advancing the constitutional principles and heritage they advanced one hundred and forty years ago.

Apparently any attempt by the SCV or UDC to defend Confederate heritage, to defend the flying of the Battle Flag, to intervene on behalf of the rights of students' free speech, or to use the constitutionally guaranteed avenues of legal litigation to defend these rights, is "racist" or "hate speech" in the eyes of the SPLC.

In the Spring 2002 issue of Intelligence Report the Center listed dozens of SCV officers whom it claimed belonged to what were "listed by the SPLC as hate groups."(44) Then, during the Summer of 2002 the SPLC's Mark Potok appeared on CBS Evening News, right before the SCV's national convention in Memphis, Tennessee, to offer negative comments on the "direction" of the SCV. Shortly thereafter attack articles showed up in the pages of a leftwing weekly in North Carolina, The Independent, and then in the pages of the more established News and Observer (Raleigh, NC)--on each occasion to slander and denigrate SCV members and the organization as a whole.(45) The tactics of guilt by association and "linkism" were clearly in evidence. The SCV had now become a primary target of Morris Dees and the SPLC.

INACTIVITY IS NOT AN OPTION

Unlike the SPLC's negative characterization, the Sons of Confederate Veterans is NOT an "extremist" or "racist" group. For over one hundred years it has honored both the memory AND the ideals of the Confederate soldier. But historical memory is NOT the SCV's only role; the SCV is NOT simply a "civil war roundtable" or "history club." The SCV, it is true, supports numerous educational and scholarship programs for students, is deeply involved in historic preservation activities, and supports historical awareness programs across the nation. But SCV members also love and will defend their precious patrimony, for their heritage is a rich and noble one that has been handed down to them from the hardy pioneers who settled at Jamestown, Port Royal, Bath Town, Savannah, New Orleans, and St. Mary's, or who came down the Great Wagon Road to the fertile Carolina Piedmont.

On the Confederate States national seal is the figure of a mounted President George Washington. Like their forbears of 1860-1861, the descendants of those reluctant warriors see themselves in a direct line from Washington, Madison, Jefferson, and so many others, defending the same principles and the same inherited cultural legacy. They want only to live those same principles and pass that heritage on to their children. They reject the vicious attacks of the SPLC and similar groups. And they ask that fair-minded fellow citizens, news media and law enforcement officials examine the facts and review the abundant information about the primary source of those attacks: Morris Dees and his Southern Poverty Law Center.

NOTES:

(1) See the articles "Rebels with a Cause," Intelligence Report (Summer 2000); "The Neo-Confederates," Intelligence Report (Summer 2000); and "A House Divided," Intelligence Report (Spring 2000). Intelligence Report is the quarterly journal of the SPLC, and increasingly it has taken aim at the SCV.

(2) Millard Fuller. Bokotola (Chicago: Association Press/Follett Publishing Company, 1977), 3-4.

(3) Fuller. Love in the Mortar Joints (Chicago: Association Press/Follett Publishing Company, 1980), 41-42.

(4) Ibid., 47.

(5) John Edgerton, "Poverty Palace: How the Southern Poverty Law Center Got Rich Fighting the Klan," The Progressive (July 1988), 14-16.

(6) Ibid., 16.

(7) Mark Pinsky, "Reflections on Joan Little," Columbia Journalism Review (March/April 1976), 30-31.

(8) Ibid., 31.

(9) Burlington Times News (Burlington, NC), July 30, 1975. See also Edgerton, 16. (10) Kelly Thornton, "Skinhead Reveals Betrayal of Movement Was All a Ploy," San Diego Union-Tribune (San Diego, CA.), August 25, 2001. The Anti-Defamation League places the Confederate Battle Flag (and the Celtic Cross) on its list of racist "hate" symbols. See "Hate On Display: A Visual Database of Extremist Symbols, Logos and Tattoos," at www.adl.org/hate_symbols/racist_confederate_flag.asp.

(11) Ibid. See also "Suing Hate Groups: What the Law Center Has Accomplished," The Montgomery Advertiser (Montgomery, AL.), February 15, 1994, and Southern Events, 7, 1.I.

(12) The appeals case is cited as Alabama Court of Civil Appeals CIV 2114 (1979), and can be found on the web at: www.zianet.com/wblase/endtimes/dees1.htm.

(13) Ken Silverstein, "The Church of Morris Dees: How the Southern Poverty Profits from Intolerance," Harper's Magazine (November 2000), 56.

(14) See American Institute of Philanthropy, AIP Charity Rating Guide and Watchdog Report (Spring 1998) and susequent issues.

(15) Cited by Ken Silverstein, 54.

(16) Ibid.

(17) See the detailed article on this case, Dan Morse, "Center Made Millions Selling the Donald Case," The Montgomery Advertiser (Montgomery, AL.), February 15, 1994.

(18) See Dan Morse and Greg Jaffe, "Rising Fortunes: Morris Dees and the Southern Poverty Law Center," The Montgomery Advertiser, February 13-15 1994. The series ran over a period of three days, beginning with a Sunday front page spread. Among the various stories in the series are: Morse and Jaffe, "Charity of Riches," on February 13; Morse and Jaffe, "Critics Question $52 Million Reserve, Tactics of Wealthiest Civil Right Group," February 13; Jaffe, "Number of Charities Soars, Overwhelming Regulators," February 13; "Center Refuses Access to Financial, Board Records," February 13; Morse, "Opportunist or Crusader?", February 14; Morse, "Morris Dees Trades Cookbook for Law Book," February 14; Morse and Jaffe, "Dees Angers Civil Rights Leaders," February 14; Morse, "Salesman Dees Prone to 'Lapse into Hyperbole,' Some Say," February 14; Morse, "Critics: Center Fighting Shadows," February 15; Morse, "Center Made Millions Selling the Donald Case," February 15; Morse, "Center's Klanwatch Tracks Rainbow of Hate Crimes," February 15; Morse and Jaffe, "Klan Focus Triggers Legal Staff Defections," February 15; and "Suing Hate Groups: What the Center has Accomplished," February 15.

(19) Morse and Jaffe, "Charity of Riches," The Montgomery Advertiser, February 13, 1994.

(20) Morse, "Opportunist or Crusader," The Montgomery Advertiser, February 14, 1994. Mullin continues: "He fools so many people; he seems so committed. But he's so dishonest…I never saw any examples of him doing something because he had a moral belief. He was simply doing things to see what he could get of them." (Morse, "Opportunist or Crusader," The Montgomery Advertiser, February 14.)

(21) Silverstein, 56. A full discussion of the resignations and disputes with Dees' direction can be found in Morse and Jaffe, "Klan Focus Triggers Legal Staff Defections," The Montgomery Advertiser, February 14, 1994.

(22) The Birmingham News (Birmingham, AL.), February 17, 1994.

(23) Morse and Jaffe, "Charity of Riches," The Montgomery Advertiser, February 13, 1994.

(24) Silverstein, 56.

(25) Silverstein, 56, and Morse and Jaffe, "Charity of Riches," The Montgomery Advertiser, February 13, 1994.

(26) Morse and Jaffe, "Charity of Riches," The Montgomery Advertiser, February 13, 1994.

(27) The Charlotte Observer (Charlotte, NC), October 10, 1996.

(28) Andrea Stone, "Morris Dees: At the Center of the Racial Storm," USA Today, August 3, 1996, A-7.

(29) Ibid.

(30) Dick Foster, "10 Militias at Home in Colorado," Rocky Mountain News (Denver, CO.), September 6, 1995.

(31) Laird Wilcox. The Watchdogs: A Close Look at the Anti-Racist "Watchdog" Groups (Olathe, KS: Editorial Research Service), 53.

(32) David Bresnahan, "FBI Spy 'Fronts'," 1999 WorldNetDaily, statement by Greg Rampton, FBI special agent in charge of the Denver office.

(33) David Martin, "White Power Outage," Cleveland Scene (Cleveland, OH), March 7, 2002.

(34) Cited in Martin, "White Power Outage."

(35) Silverstein, 55. See also the "Teaching Tolerance" web link on the SPLC web page.

(36) See "Writing for Change" link at www.tolerance.org/teach/expand/wfc/wfc_sctn1_4html.

(37) See the article "Center Launches Online Hate-Crime Training" in the Winter 2001 issue of the Intelligence Report; also see the link www.splcenter.org/intelligenceproject/ip-hatetraining.html.

(38) See the recent issues of the Intelligence Report, previously cited, and the "Teaching Tolerance" web link for a list of all the new sins that now figure as verboten.

(39) Quoted in "Southern Poverty Law Center Strategy to Destroy Judge Roy Moore," Press Release, September 24, 2002, by the Christian Coalition of Alabama (John W. Giles, press spokesman).

(40) Wilcox, 59-82.

(41) Silverstein, 56.

(42) See "Rebels with a Cause" and "The Neo-Confederates" in the Intelligence Report (Summer 2000).

(43) See the segments on the SCV and UDC in "The Neo-Confederates," Intelligence Report (Summer 2000).

(44) See "Hate in the Ranks," Intelligence Report (Spring 2002), which lists approximately forty SCV members who are cited as belonging to "hate" groups by the SPLC.

(45) The CBS Evening News segment, "Eye on America," was aired on July 26, 2002. See Jon Elliston, "Dueling Rebs," The Independent (Durham, NC), August 21- 27, 2002, 12-13, and various letters of response ("Back Talk," The Independent, August 28-September 3, 2002, and "Back Talk," The Independent, September 4-10, 2002). See Dan Gearino, "A Thin Gray Line, The News and Observer (Raleigh, NC), Sunday Journal, 1D-4D, and letter to the editor responses to the article in The News and Observer, August 28 and September 1, 2002

CWRWinger  posted on  2005-04-15   10:30:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Continental Op (#46)

you've got a short attention span and I've got a life, so lets forget it, shall we?

You're not really on these forums to discuss news and things, are you? Are you on them because you enjoy making little passive-aggressive remarks, knowing that it's impossible for you to suffer any physical consequences because the internet creates a safe distance? I can't think of any other reason.

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   10:35:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Dakmar (#18)

I forget who it was, but someone once said there are only two types of Klan members - gas station attendents and government informants. The government people are easy to spot, they're the ones paying membership dues

Dak, you've hit the nail on the head with this comment. If there wasn't a Klan, it would be invented as a fund raising tool for the SPLC-types. My best guess is that the actual numbers of 'real' members could fill a phone booth. *Anyone* who does organized groups should realize they're infiltrated. I think most folks do.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2005-04-15   10:36:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: CWRWinger (#48)

Thanks CWRWinger. If you have a link, could you copy/paste it?

robin  posted on  2005-04-15   10:47:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Jethro Tull (#50)

I agree, see my post #11 above.

robin  posted on  2005-04-15   10:52:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: robin (#51)

If you have a link, could you copy/paste it?

I didn't save the link. It came from "The Southern Mercury" website. I'll see if I can find it.

CWRWinger  posted on  2005-04-15   10:54:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Jethro Tull (#50)

*Anyone* who does organized groups should realize they're infiltrated.

Infiltrated? I'm beginning to think they are nothing but government run agencies that exist for no other reason than to brainwash the sheeple.

Dakmar  posted on  2005-04-15   10:56:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: robin (#11)

An FBI spokesman added that his agency did not regard the militia movement as a danger.(32)

Wow, refreshing honesty. The militia movement had a brief life, which ended immediately after OKC. Speaking of OKC, I’ll never understand why McVeigh went to his grave so silently. Others were involved, yet he chose to keep a cork in his mouth. Same with Nichols, as far as I can see.

The one concept that frightens the PTB is a spontaneous reaction to an event(s). The minutemen are such a group/reaction. Even if they are infiltrated (they no doubt are), there isn't anything worth reporting on from what I see. They’re above board and well run. Of course, the agent provocateur is always a worry. I pray it remains successful. To date, they’ve hit a homerun.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2005-04-15   11:15:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Dakmar (#54)

I'm beginning to think they (groups) are nothing but government run agencies

The ratio of agent to honest citizen is likely 2 to 1 in favor of the government. I'm sure this isn't anything new to folks like us. Just read some other forums. Folks ("conservatives") want us in jail for opposing Bush. Eff them. As long as the net remains free, the truth is a powerful weapon and it's so much fun burning their asses with fact :)

Jethro Tull  posted on  2005-04-15   11:20:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Jethro Tull (#55)

Indeed, researcher Laird Wilcox estimated that members in such groups numbered only around 7,000, and most of them were not focussed on race or violence, but on constitutional issues.(31)

The militia movement had a brief life, which ended immediately after OKC.
Which means the effort by the govt was a success.

I’ll never understand why McVeigh went to his grave so silently.
I suspect they threatened him with his family. (Just a guess).

The one concept that frightens the PTB is a spontaneous reaction to an event(s). The minutemen are such a group/reaction. Even if they are infiltrated (they no doubt are), there isn't anything worth reporting on from what I see. They’re above board and well run. Of course, the agent provocateur is always a worry. I pray it remains successful. To date, they’ve hit a homerun.
Excellent points. I'm praying too.

robin  posted on  2005-04-15   11:25:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: robin, dakmar (#57)

Keeping on the infiltration/misinformation theme. AM talk radio has become 'Party' radio, as in Republican party. There is no talk associated with it, unless GOP talking points are a consideration. I happened to turn on Limbaugh Monday during a walk. He opened his show talking about his attendance at an event sponsored by the magazine Cigar Aficionado. The proceeds of the funds raised were going to support cancer research. Hello....smoking cigars...and a cancer fund raiser? That's an example how far out of the mainstream this former conservative firebrand has fallen.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2005-04-15   12:27:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#49)

You're not really on these forums to discuss news and things, are you? Are you on them because you enjoy making little passive-aggressive remarks, knowing that it's impossible for you to suffer any physical consequences because the internet creates a safe distance? I can't think of any other reason.

badeye made an almost identical statement to me, a few weeks ago. is it possible that the two of you agree on something?

there are days when I feel less charitable to simpletons than usual. Your obtuse behavior, I can generally tolerate. Today, however I feel less like explaining my posts in the most elementery of terms.

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   12:43:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: OKCSubmariner (#0)

Some fr love for ya:

Posted on 04/15/2005 11:46:56 AM CDT by eastforker

Here we go again. Greta will have a special this sunday about the OKC bombing. I sugest all newbies refer to all of OKCSubmariner post's to understand what happened there. I miss OKCSUB

Lod  posted on  2005-04-15   13:26:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Neil McIver, h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t, continental op, Christine, tom007, Fred Mertz, TommyTheMadArtist, lodwick, Brian S, swarthyguy, Uncle Bill, aristeides, itisa1mosttoolate, robin, Diana, Red Jones, honway, MUDDOG, wakeup, fatidic, Zipporah, CWRWinger, Sparker (#8)

Neil McIver:

Does it really matter if there are feds posting there?

Damn right it can and does matter. Here's why:

..(he was).. always shouting the loudest of any among his White supremacist cohorts. He drank beer with Skinhead gangs, swapped jokes with them about African-Americans, Hispanics, and Jews, and heard them plot hate crimes and racial assaults. He cruised the Internet, posting racist messages to computer bulletin boards and newsgroups,...

I wonder what would have happened when and if Gold-Lox, you or Jim Rob had banned Finchley or other Feds like him on message boards and newsgroups like LP or FR when they started shouting and spreading rascist hatred against other posters like me who were crtical of the FBI handling of OKC, 1993 WTC, 9-11 etc?

You may have forgotten Neil, but the posters from Consolidated Freeping who posted on FR and LP concocted a fake post to plant on FR and on LP to try to make it look like I was associated with the White Supremicists. honway caught them at it and posted the the proof. Also honway and I detected that the fake posts were assocaited with reporter Jayna Davis and appararently Feds who got a green light back in 2002 after new legislation was passed to allow the Feds to do things (DISRUPT and intentinonaly try to PROVOKE and ENTRAP) on newsgroups previously not allowed by law.

If the Feds call dirty names, disrupt posts, smear posters and make up and plant false posts against honest posters they do not like, and then the poster gets provoked and defends himself even within the rules, the honest poster gets banned (or gets a time out) and his information from reliable news sources gets lost in the disruption. What if the honest poster gets unfairly provoked, smeared and falsely discredited by these dishonest Fed posters so not enough people pay attention to his posts or valid news articles he posts? What happens is they attack and provoke the messenger and disrupt so that not enough of the truth gets through to enough people-especially newcommers.

This has happened to me and malador and others I know of on LP and especially at FR. Maximum Consumption and sinkspur have taken a pro Fed, FBI line, about stories proving wrongdoing by some in the FBI on LP yet have gotten away with ever imaginable disruption tactic and filthy attacks against me and my wife and others and yet they were still allowed to post on LP and FR for a long time.

Fed tax dolars are being used to pay for these dirty tactics and schemes on newsgroups like LP and FR just as surely as it has been proven that Bush ordered many US gov agencies to create and distribute propaganda about his proposals to TV and print media as if they were independent and legitimate when they were not. The Fed bureaucrats under the world government socailsits Bush and Clinton have run AMOK and have no respect for what the Constitution and Bill of Rights say about individual human and civil rights .

Check with honway. I am sure Uncle Bill and Fred Mertz will also recall all of this.

OKCSubmariner  posted on  2005-04-15   13:49:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Jethro Tull (#61)

See reply #61. Thanks.

OKCSubmariner  posted on  2005-04-15   13:50:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: OKCSubmariner (#61)

If the Feds call dirty names, disrupt posts, smear posters and make up and plant false posts against honest posters they do not like, and then the poster gets provoked and defends himself even within the rules, the honest poster gets banned (or gets a time out) and his information from reliable news sources gets lost in the disruption. What if the honest poster gets unfairly provoked, smeared and falsely discredited by these dishonest Fed posters so not enough people pay attention to his posts or valid news articles he posts? What happens is they attack and provoke the messenger and disrupt so that not enough of the truth gets through to enough people-especially newcommers.

ed tax dolars are being used to pay for these dirty tactics and schemes on newsgroups like LP and FR just as surely as it has been proven that Bush ordered many US gov agencies to create and distribute propaganda about his proposals to TV and print media as if they were independent and legitimate when they were not.

I wasnt aware that had happened re you on LP.. But I totally agreed w/you .. they use OUR money to post disinformation not only about issues but about individuals.. disgusting. They use the same type verbage .. the same BS ..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   14:05:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Neil McIver, h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t, continental op, Christine, tom007, Fred Mertz, TommyTheMadArtist, lodwick, Brian S, swarthyguy, Uncle Bill, itisa1mosttoolate, robin, Diana, Red Jones, honway, wakeup, fatidic, Zipporah, CWRWinger, Sparker, Jethro Tull (#61)

....the SPLC screamed that the "militia movement" counted perhaps 40,000 members, mostly armed, and a majority linked to the Klan.(30) But subsequently Federal investigators found no connection between McVeigh and any militia group

It was made publiclly known by BATF agents during the fed trial of BATF inforamtn Carol howe that FBI agent Pete Rickles of Tulsa had tried to get Howe killed to keep her from exposing the Fed undercover operation at Elohim City. It was also revealed that Rickles had tried to set up a number of militia members in OK and around the country and had been keeping a complete data base of militia members.

Rickles collaborated with FBI informants and milita leaders John Trochtman of Montana and the head of the OK militia. Rickles OKC FBI agent partner Dan Vogel, tried to lure me into a meeting with all of them in 1996. I immediately and fully informed the Pentagon terror advisor and William Jasper of the operation who recommended that former Marine and Tulsa police oficer Craig Roberts (who had done work for the FBI before) to go in my place. The Feds were really angry because I caught them at their dirty little game. I have never attended a milita meeting anywhere at any time.

OKCSubmariner  posted on  2005-04-15   14:05:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: OKCSubmariner (#61)

I am sure Uncle Bill and Fred Mertz will also recall all of this.

Yes, I recall the general nature of the attacks against you, not all the specifics.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2005-04-15   14:10:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: OKCSubmariner (#64)

It was made publiclly known by BATF agents during the fed trial of BATF inforamtn Carol howe that FBI agent Pete Rickles of Tulsa had tried to get Howe killed to keep her from exposing the Fed undercover operation at Elohim City. It was also revealed that Rickles had tried to set up a number of militia members in OK and around the country and had been keeping a complete data base of militia members.

Rickles collaborated with FBI informants and milita leaders John Trochtman of Montana and the head of the OK militia. Rickles OKC FBI agent partner Dan Vogel, tried to lure me into a meeting with all of them in 1996. I immediately and fully informed the Pentagon terror advisor and William Jasper of the operation who recommended that former Marine and Tulsa police oficer Craig Roberts (who had done work for the FBI before) to go in my place. The Feds were really angry because I caught them at their dirty little game. I have never attended a milita meeting anywhere at any time.

of course if you would've gone innocently they would've used that to discredit you and probably far worse.. sickening I tell ya.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   14:11:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: Flintlock (#64)

See replies 61 and 64. Thanks.

OKCSubmariner  posted on  2005-04-15   14:11:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: OKCSubmariner (#64)

Rickles OKC FBI agent partner Dan Vogel, tried to lure me into a meeting with all of them in 1996. I immediately and fully informed the Pentagon terror advisor and William Jasper of the operation who recommended that former Marine and Tulsa police oficer Craig Roberts (who had done work for the FBI before) to go in my place. The Feds were really angry because I caught them at their dirty little game. I have never attended a milita meeting anywhere at any time.

It may be time to start attending.

Lod  posted on  2005-04-15   14:16:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Zipporah (#63)

I wasnt aware that had happened re you on LP.. But I totally agreed w/you .. they use OUR money to post disinformation not only about issues but about individuals.. disgusting. They use the same type verbage .. the same BS .

LOL...you think the gov't. worries about the likes of Conspira-Kooks like him?

Trust me on this, having been around the "patriot movement" for going on 20 years most of us don't even take a LOT of the self-proclaimed conspiracy experts seriously, in fact some of them are more than seriously mental in my experience.

They'll throw every ridiculous theory in the book at their pet subjects, hoping something will stick & give them validity, while the REAL truth gets buried in the shitstorm.

Sometimes I wonder if THEY aren't the REAL mis-information agent provocateurs...

TaZ  posted on  2005-04-15   14:19:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: TaZ (#69)

LOL...you think the gov't. worries about the likes of Conspira-Kooks like him?

Trust me on this, having been around the "patriot movement" for going on 20 years most of us don't even take a LOT of the self-proclaimed conspiracy experts seriously, in fact some of them are more than seriously mental in my experience.

They'll throw every ridiculous theory in the book at their pet subjects, hoping something will stick & give them validity, while the REAL truth gets buried in the shitstorm.

Sometimes I wonder if THEY aren't the REAL mis-information agent provocateurs...

Yeah they care or they wouldn't be spending OUR tax $$s to discredit them..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   14:32:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: lodwick (#68)

It may be time to start attending.

whose side are you on?

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   14:38:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: OKCSubmariner (#61)

Check with honway. I am sure Uncle Bill and Fred Mertz will also recall all of this.

I'm familiar with these online sting operations. YOu will doubtlessly recall the case of Charlie Puckett in 2001 I believe it was. Do you have any links to the threads you mentioned?

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   14:41:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: lodwick (#68)

Do you know what "Op" means? Try operative.

Don  posted on  2005-04-15   14:43:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: OKCSubmariner (#61)

Look at my Post 73.

Don  posted on  2005-04-15   14:45:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: TaZ (#69)

Sometimes I wonder if THEY aren't the REAL mis-information agent provocateurs...

No, that's my department. We're watching you.

Dakmar  posted on  2005-04-15   14:47:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Zipporah (#70)

Yeah they care or they wouldn't be spending OUR tax $$s to discredit them..

Why should they care about BBS boards when they have the Mass Media completely under there thumb?

The person in question here not only has accused me of being a Fed, but also Jayna Davis for cryin-out-loud! LOL

And now he claims John Trochtman was collaberating with the FBI! Having spoke with the man several times I can tell you THAT is most certainly a LIE from the pit of HELL...

If someone really wanted to defeat the elite and their minions, "patriots" they wouldn't be re-hashing something that is a dead horse over & over again (OKC, Flight 800 etc.) they'd be working towards unifying the "patriot" community towards becoming REAL force to be dealt with on a national level, but no...let's stay focused on peripheral subjects digging out details that a LOT of us in the "patriot" movement knew a couple of months after the incident at the Murrah Building.

Yelling at the symptoms all day & night long isn't gonna solve anything...

TaZ  posted on  2005-04-15   14:52:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Dakmar (#75)

No, that's my department. We're watching you.

LOL...I'm so SCARED!

If you had a clue about me you'd know I'm so deep in the enemie's lair I'm the last thing they have to watch...THEY know EVERY detail of my life.

You should have directed your post to OKC, he's the paranoid here ;-)

BTW, isn't it about time for you to get back to clowning around on the TOS bots thread? Duh!

TaZ  posted on  2005-04-15   14:57:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: robin (#51)

If you have a link, could you copy/paste it?

The Southern Mercury website, "southernmercury.com", did not archieve the article. I obtained it back in 2003 and saved it.

The link below has a photo of the 2003 magazine issue which features the SPLC article:

http://www.giung.net/sm/index.htm

CWRWinger  posted on  2005-04-15   15:00:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: TaZ (#77)

I was just messing with you, but thanks for letting everyone see which buttons to push to make you go all spazmoid.

Dakmar  posted on  2005-04-15   15:03:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Dakmar (#79)

I was just messing with you, but thanks for letting everyone see which buttons to push to make you go all spazmoid.

What makes you think I wasn't messing with you ;-)

TaZ  posted on  2005-04-15   15:04:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: TaZ (#80)

It's all in the dossier we have on you.

Dakmar  posted on  2005-04-15   15:08:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: Dakmar (#81)

It's all in the dossier we have on you.

You got a picture of me on file that looks like this?

If not, I'll send you one ;-)

TaZ  posted on  2005-04-15   15:12:52 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: TaZ, Zipporah, Dakmar, Fred Mertz, honway, Uncle Bill, itisa1mosttoolate, Sparker, robin, Christine, Neil McIver, Flintlock, continental op, h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t, CWRWinger, Red Jones, lodwick (#76)

TAZ:

The person in question here not only has accused me of being a Fed, but also Jayna Davis for cryin-out-loud! LOL

And now he claims John Trochtman was collaberating with the FBI! Having spoke with the man several times I can tell you THAT is most certainly a LIE from the pit of HELL...

When have I written that you are/were a Fed, Taz?

What I wrote about Trochtman is absolutely factual and I stand by it-I know about it first hand.

You should ask ole John about his testimony before Specter right after the OKC bombing You should ask ole Trochtman about his peddling "The Art of War" to try and suck in people to "take on the FBI" while Troctman sets up a meeting with FBI agent Vogel and Rickles and the head of the OKC militia in June 1996 in Tulsa OK. That meeting setup IS ABSOLUTE FACT.

In the case of Jayna Davis, I did not say she was a Fed, I wrote that she was connected to the consolidated Freeping posters that honway caught. honway posted his proof on LP several times. Take the Davis and Freeping issue up with honway if you doubt what he found.

You wildly misstate Taz what I and others write-is that intentional disinforamtion or just ignorance on your part?.

OKCSubmariner  posted on  2005-04-15   15:21:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: OKCSubmariner (#83)

You wildly misstate Taz what I and others write-is that intentional disinforamtion or just ignorance on your part?

On an LP thread I once told you about my background (work with Dr. Eugene Schroder) and my present status as In-House Press in a Federal Court...your response was to ping your list and warn them to the effect that I was probably an agent provocateur or possibly a FED.

Do you remember that?

I also remember the whole Jayna Davis incident on FR, I was on your ping list at than time, and perhaps you didn't come right-out and say she was a FED, but you certainly intimidated it...

And just in case you didn't know, Trochtman didn't have any choice in his meetings with the FEDS...if he didn't show-up to meet with them they would have come & GOT him ;-)

TaZ  posted on  2005-04-15   15:28:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: OKCSubmariner (#83)

that Taz fellow I think has some things posted here that are very worth reading. But today he's just woke up on the wrong side of the bed. and he's a naysayer today. he just wants to tear ya down today.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-04-15   15:39:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: TaZ, Zipporah, Dakmar, Fred Mertz, honway, Uncle Bill, itisa1mosttoolate, Sparker, robin, Christine, Neil McIver, Flintlock, continental op, h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t, CWRWinger, Red Jones, lodwick, Zipporah (#84)

TAZ: "On an LP thread I once told you about my background (work with Dr. Eugene Schroder) and my present status as In-House Press in a Federal Court...your response was to ping your list and warn them to the effect that I was probably an agent provocateur or possibly a FED.

Do you remember that? "

OKCS:

No I do not remember it. Do you have me confused with someone else? Did you save the postings so you can double check?

TAZ:

"I also remember the whole Jayna Davis incident on FR, I was on your ping list at than time, and perhaps you didn't come right-out and say she was a FED, but you certainly intimidated it..."

OKCS:

Your memory is defective on this. Why don't you contact honway about Davis and Consolidated Freeping as I have suggested to you? Hmm? But at least now you admit that I did not say Davis was a Fed when you wrongly said so in your earlier reply :

TAZ: "The person in question here not only has accused me of being a Fed, but also Jayna Davis for cryin-out-loud! LOL"

OKCS:

Your excuse for Trochman is very lame and weak especially from someone who just said this in your reply #76 : "...I can tell you THAT is most certainly a LIE from the pit of HELL... "

This is your lame excuse for Trochtman:

TAZ:

"And just in case you didn't know, Trochtman didn't have any choice in his meetings with the FEDS...if he didn't show-up to meet with them they would have come & GOT him ;-) "

OKCS:

That does not justify Trochman trying to entrap others in his meetings with the FBI and he absolutley did. Are you next going to try and claim that Trochtman also had to entrap others because the FBI made him do it?? It seems to me that you just admitted that Trochtman was attending meetings with the FBI. Good grief. You have further strentghened my case about Trochtman!

OKCSubmariner  posted on  2005-04-15   15:47:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: OKCSubmariner (#64)

The Oklahoma City Bombing - Glenn and Kathy Wilburn - Links

THE FBI AND THE MAD BOMBERS

How come a series of blasts from illegally stored "foreign" and "military-type" explosives rocked the J. Edgar Hoover Building in Washington, D.C., in 1987, wiping out much of the FBI's third-floor crime lab?


Time: Wed Jul 16 05:59:08 1997
by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA26433
for [address in tool bar]; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 05:56:32 -0700 (MST)
by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA09391; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 05:55:56 -0700 (MST)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 05:55:32 -0700
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
From: Paul Andrew Mitchell [address in tool bar]
Subject: SLS: Man Who Sparked Bomb Probe Dies (fwd)

The Associated Press

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) - Glenn Wilburn, who was so angry over the death of his grandsons in the Oklahoma City bombing and so mistrustful of the official investigation that he forced the opening of a new grand jury probe, died Tuesday. He was 46.

Wilburn's death from pancreatic cancer came just a day after the panel began hearing witnesses looking into the possibility there was a larger conspiracy and that federal agents had prior knowledge of the attack.

Wilburn's grandsons, 3-year-old Chase and 2-year-old Colton Smith, were killed in the day-care center of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building when it was destroyed by a truck bomb April 19, 1995.

``I believe Glenn to be the 169th victim of the bombing. He was so angry,'' Kathy Wilburn said a few weeks before her husband's death. ``I'm going to have him buried out by Chase and Colton.''

Hours after Wilburn's death, state Rep. Charles Key, who joined in the petition for a new grand jury, went before the panel and gave it a list of potential witnesses.

``It's all for him and people like him, the family members and survivors,'' Key said of Wilburn, an Oklahoma City accountant. ``That's what this is about is people like Glenn Wilburn and Chase and Colton Smith.''

In the two years since the blast, Wilburn had devoted much of his time to investigating alternate theories of the bombing.

Using the death of his grandsons as a lever with reluctant witnesses, he talked to several people who claimed to have seen others with Timothy McVeigh before the bombing. He and Key collected about 13,000 signatures that forced the empaneling of the special grand jury, which convened June 30.

Although the federal indictment against McVeigh and Terry Nichols alleged they plotted the bombing with ``others unknown,'' federal authorities now doubt a larger conspiracy. And they vehemently deny any prior knowledge.

The grand jury is expected to call at least six witnesses this week. The first two witnesses called Monday were men who claim they saw at least one other person with McVeigh the morning of the blast.

McVeigh was convicted and condemned to die last month for murder and conspiracy in the bombing. Nichols' trial on the same charges is set to begin Sept. 29.

In addition to his wife, Wilburn is survived by two sons and a stepdaughter.

AP-NY-07-15-97 1446EDT

Send "subscribe snetnews " to majordomo@world.std.com

Posted by: Finchley@aol.com

Source


Federal Bombing Instigators


"The FBI spent $3 million of your tax money to blow up the World Trade Center." - Joseph Farah


Tapes in Bombing Plot Show Informer and F.B.I. at Odds
By RALPH BLUMENTHAL
The New York Times
Section A; Page 1; Column 4; Metropolitan Desk
October 27, 1993, Wednesday, Late Edition - Final


The informer at the center of the Government's case in the plot to bomb New York City landmarks had a volatile relationship with his handlers, often quarreling with F.B.I. agents who used him to infiltrate a group of Muslim extremists who have been charged in the plot, according to transcripts of secretly taped conversations.


"You were informed. Everything is ready. The day and the time. Boom. Lock them up and that's that. That's why I feel so bad."
Transcripts of the hundreds of hours of tapes -- which were recorded by the informer, Emad A. Salem, without the knowledge of the F.B.I. -- were distributed to defense lawyers yesterday. Although Judge Michael B. Mukasey ordered the lawyers to keep them secret, a copy of the transcripts was made available to The New York Times.

The tapes offer a rare glimpse into the sensitive relationship between the confidential informer and the law- enforcement officals with whom he worked. They also reveal for the first time how Federal and police agents instructed him to "pump up" a suspect for information and negotiate a $1 million fee from the Government for his services.

Scattered through the hundreds of pages of transcripts are many instances in which the Government agents appear to encourage Mr. Salem to lead the suspects to incriminate themselves. Defense lawyers have long contended that the Government crossed a legal line, instructing Mr. Salem in a fishing expedition that became entrapment. Although the bulk of the transcripts does not appear to show the agents steering Mr. Salem toward improper or illegal conduct, whether they did so finally will be resolved in court.

Many New Details

Among the details included in the transcripts are the following:

*A reference by Mr. Salem to 12 possible bombs and hitherto unmentioned targets, including Grand Central Terminal, the Empire State Building and Times Square.

*A New York City police detective working with the F.B.I. told Mr. Salem, who was getting $500 a week from the Government, that if he wanted a $1 million informer's fee, he should press for $1.5 million and then negotiate.

*An unusual suggestion that some of the money sought by Mr. Salem was going to be put up by private individuals.

*A reference from Mr. Salem, in a conversation with an F.B.I. agent, to an argument between F.B.I. officials over whether Mr. Salem should remain an unidentified informer or surface as a witness to testify at trial.

*A major defendant in the World Trade Center trial was tipped off by a neighbor to an elaborate F.B.I. ruse to search the Brooklyn apartment of another suspect, Mahmud Abouhalima, and replace explosives in his apartment with false explosives supplied by the F.B.I.

*Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, a defendant in the second bombing case, was using a fax machine to command anti-Communist Muslim rebels, moving forces from Pakistan to Afghanistan and dealing with a code-named agent from Hamas, the militant Palestinian group, Mr. Salem told the F.B.I.

The transcripts cover Mr. Salem's dealings with the suspects and his work for the Government over a period of at least two years, going back to the trial in the killing of Rabbi Meir Kahane. Mr. Salem recorded the conversations with Government agents on his own, without the knowledge or consent of his contacts in the F.B.I., apparently to use as an insurance policy to hold the Government to its promises of money and protection.

Some of the most striking passages in the transcripts show Mr. Salem agonizing over what he suggests was the failure of the F.B.I., despite his information, to halt the Feb. 26 bombing of the trade center, in which six people were killed. Although Mr. Salem is not a witness in that case, he was working with the Government at that time.

"They told me that 'we want to set this,' " Mr. Salem said, referring to the bomb in a conversation on April 1 with John Anticev, one of the F.B.I. agents he reported to, and sometimes complained to others about. " 'What's the right place to put this?' "

Then he added, still speaking to the agent: "You were informed. Everything is ready. The day and the time. Boom. Lock them up and that's that. That's why I feel so bad."

Federal officials have acknowledged in the past that they dropped Mr. Salem as an informer sometime before the trade center bombing over what they said was his reluctance to wear a body recorder, as well as other disagreements. They said he never provided detailed information of the attack in advance but that they began using his services again after the bombing and credited him with foiling the related but separate plot to bomb the United Nations, Holland and Lincoln tunnels and the Federal building housing the F.B.I. in Manhattan.

The case is expected to come to trial next year, perhaps shortly after the end of the related trial of four men charged with bombing the World Trade Center. As the most important witness, Mr. Salem is expected to be called upon to verify tapes he made of conversations with suspects and testify on his dealings with them.

In several instances, the transcripts show Mr. Salem lecturing Federal agents on how to do their jobs, criticizing their surveillance and interview techniques. In one instance, he suggests that they tell a possible source that his phone was tapped, when in fact it was not, and that they confront the man and push him hard for information. "Don't give him a chance to think," Mr. Salem is quoted as saying. "If he will think it's, 'I want my lawyer.' Then bingo, you are gone."

Aid for Defense?

By creating the so-called bootleg tapes, Mr. Salem has given ammunition to defense lawyers who argue that he entrapped the 15 defendants charged with conspiring to bomb New York City landmarks.

In one instance that shows how Mr. Salem was prompted by Federal agents, Mr. Anticev is quoted as saying, "You know, pump, maybe kind of pump him up a little bit." The agent tells Mr. Salem to stress "the loyalty to his cousin." The target in that instance, Ibrahim A. Elgabrowny, is a cousin of the man who was charged with shooting Mr. Kahane and now a defendant in a plot to bomb New York City targets.

In another instance, Mr. Anticev is quoted as instructing Mr. Salem to press to learn whether Mr. Elgabrowny or his associates were hiding explosives. He is quoted as telling Mr. Salem not to worry about being exposed as the source of the information. "We'll just know where stuff exists and where it is," Mr. Anticev is quoted as saying. "And then we'll make our move."

"There's no danger, you know," he says later. "We can be sneaky and take our time."

Mr. Salem has dropped from sight since the June arrests, and an effort to get in touch with him through the witness protection program of the Federal Marshals Service was rejected. But a member of the defense team said he was spotted within the last month in Manhattan.

Mr. Salem, a 43-year-old former Egyptian Army officer and confidant of the radical Egyptian cleric, Mr. Abdel Rahman, surfaced as the Government's mole after a June 24 F.B.I. raid on a Queens garage that the Government said smashed an extremist Muslim plot to blow up the United Nations, Lincoln and Holland tunnels and the Manhattan Federal building housing the F.B.I., and to assassinate Senator Alfonse M. D'Amato and State Assemblyman Dov Hikind, among other targets.

The unauthorized tapes came to light immediately after the raid as Mr. Salem hurriedly evacuated his West Side Manhattan apartment and was quickly identified by associates of the sheik and by law-enforcement authorities as the "confidential informant" who had secretly gathered evidence, including many tape-recorded conversations, against those later charged as conspirators in the case.

Tapes Left Behind

In the belongings Mr. Salem left behind either carelessly or by design were cassettes of the tapes he had secretly recorded with the F.B.I.

Because these could shed light on the prosecution's evidence-gathering methods to the point of possible entrapment, defense lawyers convinced Judge Mukasey that they should gain access to this material as well as to Mr. Salem's authorized recordings, turned over earlier.

Even before he came in from the cold of his undercover role in June, the burly, bearded Mr. Salem was an enigmatic figure, a private investigator who supported himself as a jewelry designer, a security guard for the sheik who freely gave interviews to news reporters.

Officials in Cairo say he entered the Egyptian Army as a private and during an 18-year career fought in the 1973 war with Israel and was "pensioned out" as a senior officer while continuing a relationship with Egyptian military intelligence. His American wife, from whom he was divorced this year but to whom he is still close, told New York Newsday last week that he had recently sent a set of the bootleg tapes home to Egyptian authorities with a visiting relative.

In the United States for about six years, he lived most recently in a fifth-floor suite at the Bretton Hall residence hotel at 2350 Broadway.

A news reporter invited to interview him there shortly after the World Trade Center bombing found herself on camera as Mr. Salem insisted videotaping the encounter.

He showed her photographs of what he said was his sandbagged bunker in the 1973 war, the reviewing stand where former President Anwar el-Sadat was assassinated in 1981 and his grave site. He also showed pictures of people who had apparently been tortured: a woman with cigarette burns and a man confined in a cage.

He said that he prayed at the Abu Bakr mosque in Brooklyn and the al-Salaam mosque in Jersey City, where Sheik Omar often preached, and that he had known the cleric from Egypt. He said he was attracted by Mr. Rahman's aura of power and fearlessness.

Remembered as Benefactor

Associates in Jersey City said they remembered Mr. Salem as a generous benefactor of the mosques and of the sheik himself. He also collected money for the defense of El Sayyid A. Nosair, an Egyptian contractor charged in the 1990 assassination of the militant Jewish leader, Rabbi Meir Kahane. Mr. Nosair was acquitted of that killing but convicted of related assault and weapons charges. He is also one of the 15 defendants in the bombing conspiracy case.

Mr. Salem also had dealings with Mr.. Elgabrowny, a relative of Mr. Nosair for whom Mr. Salem said he helped obtain a pistol permit from the New York City Police Department.

Associates and lawyers of some of the defendants said that Mr. Salem appeared rather abruptly on the scene around the time of the Kahane killing and that they now suspect he was sent to infiltrate the circle around Mr. Nosair.


Not for commercial use. Solely to be used for the educational purposes of research and open discussion.

Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast
By RALPH BLUMENTHAL
The New York Times
Section A; Page 1; Column 4; Metropolitan Desk
October 28, 1993, Thursday, Late Edition - Final
Correction Appended


L aw-enforcement officials were told that terrorists were building a bomb that was eventually used to blow up the World Trade Center, and they planned to thwart the plotters by secretly substituting harmless powder for the explosives, an informer said after the blast.


"Do you deny," Mr. Salem says he told the other agent, "your supervisor is the main reason of bombing the World Trade Center?" Mr. Salem said Mr. Anticev did not deny it. "We was handling the case perfectly well until the supervisor came and messed it up, upside down."
The informer was to have helped the plotters build the bomb and supply the fake powder, but the plan was called off by an F.B.I. supervisor who had other ideas about how the informer, Emad A. Salem, should be used, the informer said.

The account, which is given in the transcript of hundreds of hours of tape recordings Mr. Salem secretly made of his talks with law-enforcement agents, portrays the authorities as in a far better position than previously known to foil the Feb. 26 bombing of New York City's tallest towers. The explosion left six people dead, more than 1,000 injured and damages in excess of half a billion dollars. Four men are now on trial in Manhattan Federal Court in that attack.

Mr. Salem, a 43-year-old former Egyptian army officer, was used by the Government to penetrate a circle of Muslim extremists now charged in two bombing cases: the World Trade Center attack and a foiled plot to destroy the United Nations, the Hudson River tunnels and other New York City landmarks. He is the crucial witness in the second bombing case, but his work for the Government was erratic, and for months before the trade center blast, he was feuding with the F.B.I.

Supervisor 'Messed It Up'

After the bombing, he resumed his undercover work. In an undated transcript of a conversation from that period, Mr. Salem recounts a talk he had had earlier with an agent about an unnamed F.B.I. supervisor who, he said, "came and messed it up."

"He requested to meet me in the hotel," Mr. Salem says of the supervisor. "He requested to make me to testify and if he didn't push for that, we'll be going building the bomb with a phony powder and grabbing the people who was involved in it. But since you, we didn't do that."

The transcript quotes Mr. Salem as saying that he wanted to complain to F.B.I. headquarters in Washington about the bureau's failure to stop the bombing, but was dissuaded by an agent identified as John Anticev.

"He said, I don't think that the New York people would like the things out of the New York office to go to Washington, D.C.," Mr. Salem said Mr. Anticev had told him.

Another agent, identified as Nancy Floyd, does not dispute Mr. Salem's account, but rather, appears to agree with it, saying of the New York people: "Well, of course not, because they don't want to get their butts chewed."

Mary Jo White, who, as the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York is prosecuting defendants in two related bombing cases, declined yesterday to comment on the Salem allegations or any other aspect of the cases. An investigator close to the case who refused to be identified further said, "We wish he would have saved the world," but called Mr. Salem's claims "figments of his imagination."

The transcripts, which are stamped "draft" and compiled from 70 tapes recorded secretly during the last two years by Mr. Salem, were turned over to defense lawyers in the second bombing case by the Government on Tuesday under a judge's order barring lawyers from disseminating them. A large portion of the material was made available to The New York Times.

In a letter to Federal Judge Michael B. Mukasey, Andrew C. McCarthy, an assistant United States attorney, said that he had learned of the tapes while debriefing Mr. Salem and that the informer had then voluntarily turned them over. Other Salem tapes and transcripts were being withheld pending Government review, of "security and other issues," Mr. McCarthy said.

William M. Kunstler, a defense lawyer in the case, accused the Government this week of improper delay in handing over all the material. The transcripts he had seen, he said, "were filled with all sorts of Government misconduct." But citing the judge's order, he said he could not provide any details.

The transcripts do not make clear the extent to which Federal authorities knew that there was a plan to bomb the World Trade Center, merely that they knew that a bombing of some sort was being discussed. But Mr. Salem's evident anguish at not being able to thwart the trade center blast is a recurrent theme in the transcripts. In one of the first numbered tapes, Mr. Salem is quoted as telling agent Floyd: "Since the bomb went off I feel terrible. I feel bad. I feel here is people who don't listen."

Ms. Floyd seems to commiserate, saying, "hey, I mean it wasn't like you didn't try and I didn't try."

In an apparent reference to Mr. Salem's complaints about the supervisor, Agent Floyd adds, "You can't force people to do the right thing."

The investigator involved in the case who would not be quoted by name said that Mr. Salem may have been led to believe by the agents that they were blameless for any mistakes. It was a classic agent's tactic, he said, to "blame the boss for all that's bad and take credit for all the good things."

In another point in the transcripts, Mr. Salem recounts a conversation he said he had with Mr. Anticev, saying, "I said, 'Guys, now you saw this bomb went off and you both know that we could avoid that.' " At another point, Mr. Salem says, "You get paid, guys, to prevent problems like this from happening."

Mr. Salem talks of the plan to substitute harmless powder for explosives during another conversation with agent Floyd. In that conversation, he recalls a previous discussion with Mr. Anticev.

"Do you deny," Mr. Salem says he told the other agent, "your supervisor is the main reason of bombing the World Trade Center?" Mr. Salem said Mr. Anticev did not deny it. "We was handling the case perfectly well until the supervisor came and messed it up, upside down."

The transcripts reflect an effort to keep Mr. Salem as an intelligence asset who would not have to go public or testify.

A police detective working with the F.B.I., Louis Napoli, assures Mr. Salem in one conversation, "We can give you total immunity towards prosecution, towards, ah, ah, testifying." But he adds: "I still have to tell you that if you're the only game in town in regards to the information," then, he says, "you'll have to testify."

Studied for Signs of Illegality

The transcripts are being closely studied by lawyers looking for signs that Mr. Salem and the law enforcement officials, in their zeal to gather evidence, may have crossed the legal line into entrapment, a charge that defense counsel have already raised.

But the transcripts show that the officials were concerned that by associating with bombing defendants awaiting trial in the Metropolitan Correctional Center, Mr. Salem might have been accused of spying on the defense.

In an undated conversation, Mr. Anticev tries to explain the perils.

"We're not allowed to have any information regarding that," he tells Mr. Salem. "That could jeopardize, you know, if you go see a lawyer, ah, you know, with the defendant's friend or whatever like that, and you're talking about things we're not suppose to, ah, condone that. We're not supposed to make people do that for us. That's like sacred ground. You can't be privileged, ah, you can't know what's being talked about at all."

Mr. Salem seems to bridle. "I, I, I don't think that's right," he says.

The agent insists: "Yeah, but that's just a guideline. If that ever happened, ah, you can back and reported on the meeting between, ah, you know, Kunstler and Mohammad A. Elgabrown. Forget about it. I mean a lot of people ah the case can get thrown out. You understand?" The references were to the defense lawyer, Mr. Kunstler, and his client in the second bomb case, Ibrahim A. Elgabrowny.

Mr. Salem seems to reluctantly agree.

"They want you to have a hand in it," Mr. Anticev goes on, "but they're afraid that when you get that kind of, ah, too deep, like me, it's almost like, especially with all this legal stuff going on right now."

If it were just intelligence gathering, the agent says, "You can do anything you want. You could go crazy over there and have a good time. Do you know what I mean? "

The agent goes on: "But now that everything is going to court and there is legal stuff and it's just, it's just too hard. It's just too tricky, if, this, you know. And then there's the fact if you come by with the big information, he did this, ah, let me talk about this with the other people again."

"O.K.," Mr. Salem says. "All right. O.K."

CORRECTION-DATE: October 29, 1993, Friday

CORRECTION:

An article yesterday about accounts of a plot to build a bomb that was eventually exploded at the World Trade Center referred imprecisely in some copies to what Federal officials knew about the plan before the blast. Transcripts of tapes made secretly by an informant, Emad A. Salem, quote him as saying he warned the Government that a bomb was being built. But the transcripts do not make clear the extent to which the Federal authorities knew that the target was the World Trade Center.

"Then he added, still speaking to the agent: "You were informed. Everything is ready. The day and the time. Boom. Lock them up and that's that. That's why I feel so bad."

FEDERAL BOMB INSTIGATORS


GOVERNMENT TERRORISM - From Ruby Ridge To Waco and Beyond


"We are potentially the most dangerous agency in the country,"
FBI Director Louis Freeh - testimony before the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime on June 5, 1997.

Oklahoma City Bombing

Uncle Bill  posted on  2005-04-15   16:31:45 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: Uncle Bill (#87)

Great post. Thanks.

Who Bombed The WTC? FBI Bomb Builders Exposed [audio of FBI agent and provocateur Emad Salem]

Two cassette tape recordings, obtained by SHADOW reporter Paul DeRienzo of telephone conversations between FBI informant Emad Salem and his Bureau contacts reveal secret U.S. Government complicity in the February 26, 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center in New York City in which six people were killed and more than a thousand were injured.

honway  posted on  2005-04-15   18:04:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: All (#88)

Click here for long version of the the conversation between FBI Agent John Anticev and Emad Salem

honway  posted on  2005-04-15   18:07:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: Zipporah (#27)

I wasnt aware of that .. WTF?

Please see #88 and #89

honway  posted on  2005-04-15   18:14:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: OKCSubmariner (#86)

I don't have the time nor the desire to sift through thousands of posts on FR & LP to find the exact details, I trust my memory. BTW, insinuating that someone's an "agent provocateur" is the same as saying that person is either a FED or working with them, don't play dumb you've been around the game long enough to know the rulez...

Moreover concerning Trochman, you know that right after the Murrah bldg. attack there were accusations flying left & right about McVeigh's involvement with the Michigan militia, of which Trochman was a significant leader. His meetings with the FBI were basically interrogations following the OKC bombings & was successful at keeping SEVERAL patriots out of the US Justice System's meatgrinder as a result.

If you knew half as much about the OKC demon party as you claim, you would know this - Perhaps you're experiencing a convenient lapse of memory? Give Jayna a call, she can fill you in on the details ;-)

Then again, perhaps you furthermore don't know about Trochman's background, how the CIA used & abused his business for Panamanian drug operations, and how he was shocked out of his sheepish sleep, fled the state to Michigan and became part of the "patriot" movement? You miss that little detail as well?

While I don't agree with a LOT of Trochman's conclusions around that period (RE: His video "Invasion & Betrayal" where he saw a UN-Run Red Dawn scenario), Trochman mistakenly thought good Christian men in the US would ban together and stop the despotic tyrants, idealistic wishful thinking at best.

With that said, my group had a lot of contact and information shared with him & his prior to & following the OKC bombings. WE had ALL the information we needed when we got the seismograph charts from OU in Norman...3 distinct blast waves.

Not to mention Brig General Ben Parton's expert analysis that removed any doubts that there were internal shape-charges a few months later.

Of course, the Amerikan sheeple weren't interested so the gov't. story flew, as it does 99.9% of the time in the New Surfdom...the Old Republic is dead Pat, get over it.

Sitting here arguing over OKC conspiracy scraps at this point would be like good Germans trying to still prove the Nazis blew-up the Reichstag bldg. in 1943...there are much BIGGER things happening at the present moment (much like in 1943) that not only need to be exposed, but the trivial B$ differences that cause Christian Americans to be divided need to be swept aside, before it's too late.

I have even less faith in that happening though than what I had in 1999 when I threw in the towel on the "patriot" movement.

So go back to your circle-jerk sessions throwing interesting tid bits of conspiratorial info back & forth across the Net, sort of like a virtual Firecamp girls meeting where the participants entertain each other with boogieman stories as they roast marshmellows...The Babylon System is coming to get choo!!!

TaZ  posted on  2005-04-15   19:53:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: Red Jones (#85)

that Taz fellow I think has some things posted here that are very worth reading. But today he's just woke up on the wrong side of the bed. and he's a naysayer today. he just wants to tear ya down today.

I made the mistake of coming in here and reading what OKC said about John Trochmann, one of the Montana militia founders/leaders.

It's bad enough when we've got the Gov't. spreading disinformation, but I'm getting tired of conspira-kooks defaming real patriots like John, the whole balkanization and divisions of American Christianity into sect-like cults makes me nauseous...I wasted most of the 90s trying to talk to these type of idiots.

TaZ  posted on  2005-04-15   20:12:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: TaZ, OKCSubmariner (#91)

So go back to your circle-jerk sessions throwing interesting tid bits of conspiratorial info back & forth across the Net, sort of like a virtual Firecamp girls meeting where the participants entertain each other with boogieman stories as they roast marshmellows...The Babylon System is coming to get choo!!!

TaZ posted on 2005-04-15 19:53:37 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

I have not followed every nuance of this "discussion", but I really do not see how the above retort adds quality to the thread, or site.

That's just me.

tom007  posted on  2005-04-15   20:15:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: TaZ (#76)

Why should they care about BBS boards when they have the Mass Media completely under there thumb?

Oh they don't? Then WHY was it mentioned in the article that the agent did exactly that?? Also, in the book Bush's Brain it's documented that apparently they do find forums quite important..According to the documentation, Rove used a forum to discredit and basically destroy one of his 'friends' who he thought crossed him... so what you are saying has no credibility whatsoever.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   20:16:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: Zipporah (#94)

Also, in the book Bush's Brain it's documented that apparently they do find forums quite important..According to the documentation, Rove used a forum to discredit and basically destroy one of his 'friends' who he thought crossed him

Iteresting, Zip.

tom007  posted on  2005-04-15   20:18:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: tom007, aristeides (#95)

The forum wasnt named but the poster was.. I dont recall the poster's name offhand and I've lent the book to another person ..perhaps aristeides will recall.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   20:19:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: Zipporah (#94)

Then WHY was it mentioned in the article that the agent did exactly that??

he wasn't "monitering" boards.

"Also, in the book Bush's Brain it's documented that apparently they do find forums quite important..According to the documentation, Rove used a forum to discredit and basically destroy one of his 'friends' who he thought crossed him. "

different matter entirely. do you think it was an ordinary forum?

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   20:19:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: OKCSubmariner (#67)

J an e Graham Statement

The Importance of Jane Graham

I suspect Anthony Lake (NSC), Reno, Shapiro,Clinton, Freeh,and Larry Potts, Deutch (CIA) and CIA and FBI duplicity with the use of Ali Mohammed and ME terrorists from Dallas. Mohammed worked with Dallas ME terrorists(el Hage, Bin Laden's secretary for example)in the OKC bombing based on evidence given to the FBI in 1999 which the FBI refused to receive (but recognized!)for four years.

89 Posted on 06/14/2001 20:31:48 PDT by OKCSubmariner

Th e Oklahoma City Bombing - PROOF there were additional explosive charges


HOW TERRORISTS HAVE INFILTRATED AMERICA

Uncle Bill  posted on  2005-04-15   20:20:09 ET  (3 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: Continental Op (#97)

Ordinary?? Define an 'ordinary' forum. But it was a political forum from what I recall..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   20:20:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: Zipporah (#94)

... so what you are saying has no credibility whatsoever.

Uh huh, perhaps you're right.

The gov't. agents may be so bored (having the mainstream media basically on statist auto-pilot) that they delve into political forums to keep them entertained.

Other than FR & its liberal sibling (can't remember the name at the moment) I'd say there aren't enough numbers of participants on the average forum to even warrant such activity, then again with the gov't. basically controlling the pipes for the Net, they could be using word recognition software...what a collosal waste of time that would be! LOL

TaZ  posted on  2005-04-15   20:22:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Zipporah (#99)

offhand I'd say it was probably private and exclusive.

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   20:22:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: TaZ (#100)

The gov't. agents may be so bored (having the mainstream media basically on statist auto-pilot) that they delve into political forums to keep them entertained.

Good one.

tom007  posted on  2005-04-15   20:24:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: TaZ (#100)

The gov't. agents may be so bored (having the mainstream media basically on statist auto-pilot) that they delve into political forums to keep them entertained.

most of 'em will come right out and tell you they're with the FBI, BATF ect... They're just honestly interested in discussion and learning, in most cases.

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   20:25:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Continental Op (#97)

"He cruised the Internet, posting racist messages to computer bulletin boards and newsgroups, making contacts with neo-Nazis and nationalist extremists the world over."

..he wasn't "monitering" boards.

Depends on what you meant by monitering.. if you are naive enough to think that doesnt happen.. then you are quite naive. This should certainly not be a new revelation.. there are groups that do exactly that.. moniter computer forums.. There are 'screen names' that are used by more than one person.. as I said this shouldn't be some revelation.. it's been proven on other forums.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   20:26:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: Red Jones (#92)

What I wrote about John Trochtman is absolutely correct and factual based on my first hand knowledge despite Taz's protestations (it is possible Taz has been decieved)

OKCSubmariner  posted on  2005-04-15   20:27:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: Continental Op (#103)

I have never seen that, anyone else??

tom007  posted on  2005-04-15   20:27:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: TaZ (#100)

Whatever..be a skeptic.. but I wouldnt say this if I were just theorizing.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   20:28:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: Zipporah (#104)

Depends on what you meant by monitering.. if you are naive enough to think that doesnt happen.. then you are quite naive. This should certainly not be a new revelation.. there are groups that do exactly that.. moniter computer forums.. There are 'screen names' that are used by more than one person.. as I said this shouldn't be some revelation.. it's been proven on other forums

yeah I used to be paranoid about that too, when I was a moderator. these days I don't believe the FED gov moniters forums. It's flattering to thinks so, but no, I doubt it. The ADL, maybe, but not the FBI.

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   20:29:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: tom007 (#106)

I have never seen that, anyone else??

strictly speaking I've never seen an admitted FEd agent on large forums. I have seen them on various militia/weapons/tactics/radical/politics boards during the '90s and up to around 2001.

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   20:31:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: Continental Op, Zipporah (#108)

I'm not speliing cop, I get no points for this, but it's spelled monitoring.

Dakmar  posted on  2005-04-15   20:32:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: Continental Op (#108)

It's flattering to thinks so, but no, I doubt it. The ADL, maybe, but not the FBI.

Has nothing to do with flattery.. I'm trying to recall the forum that used to post the IP addresses of governmental agencies that monitored their site.. I dont recall the URL of the site.. but it was more than one agency btw.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   20:33:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: Dakmar, ALL (#110)

yeah. but its quickers on the fingers this way...

have a nice weekend

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-15   20:34:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: Dakmar (#110)

Okay Dakmar Webster thanks for the input :P

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   20:34:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: Continental Op, all (#108)

Is it any wonder they're hated?

Jewish Group Claims Its Database Helps FBI Combat Terrorism

By Robert B. Bluey CNSNews.com Staff Writer October 15, 2002

(CNSNews.com) - In the year after the terrorist attacks on America, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) says it has played a vital role protecting the homeland by providing law enforcement officials with valuable information about suspected terrorists.

The ADL's mission of tracking international and domestic terrorists is not new, but the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon sparked greater interest in the ADL's efforts, said David Friedman, director of the organization's Washington office.

Friedman spoke about the ADL's relationship with police officers and FBI agents at the group's national meeting in Houston last week and echoed those sentiments in an interview with CNSNews.com. Since the terrorist attacks, he said, law enforcement officials have viewed extremist groups in a different light.

"There is a new level of urgency for law enforcement," he said. "They feel a particular burden as the front line of homeland defense. There is a greater interest in finding out not only information, but also what expertise and perspectives we have. It's not just information they need as background -- it's information that may save lives and prevent something from happening."

Unlike some civil rights groups that might scoff at the notion of police tapping into their resources, the ADL says it has welcomed the interaction with the FBI and other officials.

The ADL's comprehensive database on extremist groups includes international terrorist organizations, such as al Qaeda and Hamas, as well as domestic terrorists, including neo-Nazi and white supremacy groups. It would be difficult for the law enforcement officials to track the movements of all these groups, which is where the ADL offers its help, Friedman said.

"They are so burdened by the demands upon their time and so spread thin that they don't have the time to be studying and searching for additional information," he said. "They're trying to deal with immediate needs."

Calls to the FBI's Office of Law Enforcement Services, which Friedman said has worked closely with the ADL, were not returned Monday.

The ADL shares information about international and domestic terrorists on its website. In addition, the organization provides law enforcement officials with information at routine meetings and through educational sessions. In the last year, the ADL's 30 regional offices have trained 25,000 officers.

However, the close interaction between police and the ADL worries the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR). Spokesman Ibrahim Hooper questioned the relationship, noting that the ADL's pro-Jewish agenda concerned him, especially when it comes to the rights of Muslims living in the United States.

"The pro-Israel lobby generally has an agenda that works counter to the political participation of American Muslims," he said. "They do whatever they can to marginalize and disenfranchise American Muslims. If that requires smears that American Muslims somehow support terrorism, that's what they do."

He said the ADL's work with law enforcement officials was particularly troublesome.

"It concerns me that they're behind the scenes whispering in the ear of law enforcement," Hooper said.

Hooper said his own organization frequently works with law enforcement officials, but those meetings are used primarily to educate police and the FBI about discrimination against Muslims.

Friedman said the ADL had no intentions of targeting individuals based on religion or race; the primary goal of his organization, he said, is to root out extremist groups.

For instance, the ADL already had a profile on Timothy McVeigh before the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing by following anti-Semitic and anti-government movements, Friedman said.

A similar circumstance developed this summer after the July 4 shooting at the El Al Airlines ticket counter at Los Angeles International Airport. While the FBI did not initially consider it an act of terrorism, the ADL did, and now the FBI is investigating that angle, according to Friedman.

Despite some concerns, the ADL plans to continue working with law enforcement officials on a local, state and national level to monitor terrorist groups, Friedman said.

"We track left-wing and right-wing extremists, international and domestic extremists," he said. "There are so many different areas in which we are actively involved, they all have degrees of overlap, which enriches our contact with law enforcement."

Jethro Tull  posted on  2005-04-15   20:37:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: Continental Op (#108)

yeah I used to be paranoid about that too, when I was a moderator. these days I don't believe the FED gov moniters forums. It's flattering to thinks so, but no, I doubt it. The ADL, maybe, but not the FBI.

I am curious as to the replies on this. Even the "flagsh*t" FR can't have more that a couple of hundred thousand dedicated readers.

But we are the folks who matter. Other folks who know nothing value our opinion, (as I do their's when it comes to who is the fav on the big game).

People who inhabit sites as this are the "multipliers", where political leverage can be obtained.

tom007  posted on  2005-04-15   20:39:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: Zipporah (#111)

Has nothing to do with flattery.. I'm trying to recall the forum that used to post the IP addresses of governmental agencies that monitored their site.. I dont recall the URL of the site.. but it was more than one agency btw.

Zipporah posted on 2005-04-15 20:33:40 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

very intresting.

tom007  posted on  2005-04-15   20:41:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: Zipporah (#107)

Whatever..be a skeptic.. but I wouldnt say this if I were just theorizing.

Hey Zip, I believe you!

I just don't it's the massively insidious conspiracy to take down patriots that has been characterized by some...

Besides, gov't. agents are people too, even if they're serving the Empire.

Since the Empire owns the pipes we're communicating on, I have no doubt they could watch our every keystroke (they know EXACTLY who we are) if that yanked their cranked.

If someone is stupid enough to commit some sort of crime against the Empire on the Net at this stage in the game, they probably doing us ALL a favor by keeping an eye on them ;-)

TaZ  posted on  2005-04-15   20:42:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: All (#117)

I just don't it's the massively insidious conspiracy to take down patriots that has been characterized by some...

I just don't THINK it's the massively insidious conspiracy to take down patriots that has been characterized by some...

TaZ  posted on  2005-04-15   20:44:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: Continental Op, Zipporah (#109)

It's the plan daisy people that worry me. Along with the David Project. Oh, and SPLC, ADL, and every other "civil rights" organization that gets paid to help police decide who is bad.

Dakmar  posted on  2005-04-15   20:46:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: Dakmar (#119)

It's the plan daisy people that worry me. Along with the David Project. Oh, and SPLC, ADL, and every other "civil rights" organization that gets paid to help police decide who is bad.

AKA The Thought Police

Orwell would be blown-out of his gord if he could see what is going on in the Empire nowadays...

TaZ  posted on  2005-04-15   20:50:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: Dakmar (#119)

It's the plan daisy people that worry me. Along with the David Project. Oh, and SPLC, ADL, and every other "civil rights" organization that gets paid to help police decide who is bad.

isnt that the truth? I still would like to know what business the SPLC had at Elohim City?

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   20:50:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: Zipporah (#121)

Fear Factory --- Harem Scare-um.....Spooktacular

Dakmar  posted on  2005-04-15   20:55:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: Dakmar (#122)

Fear Factory --- Harem Scare-um.....Spooktacular

Is this where I make a choice or is it all of the above?? ;P

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   21:02:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: OKCSubmariner (#0)

CAN ANYONE FIND A PICTURE OF THIS FINCHLEY PERSON????

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2005-04-15   21:30:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: -a-l-f-w-i-t-t, Refinersfire, Christine, tom007, Fred Mertz, TommyTheMadArtist, lodwick, Brian S, swarthyguy, Uncle Bill, aristeides, itisa1mosttoolate, robin, Diana, Red Jones, honway, MUDDOG, Neil McIver, wakeup, fatidic, Zipporah, CWRWinger, Sparker (#1)

"Finchley was so taken with the woman that he persuaded her to marry him instead, allegedly in order to keep her out of the clutches of the racist leader. Soon afterwards he and his Russian wife amicably divorced and Agent Finchley arranged for her to get a green card and relocate to FLORIDA.

Gary D. Hunt did in fact steal another mans wife and may have divorced her. The FBI threatened me in my home over my investigations of JD Cash and Gary D. Hunt. Hunt took Cash to Elohim City while Cash was talking to the FBI SAC in OKC Mr Coucker. JD Cash threatened my life over my investigation of Gary Hunt.

Gary Hunt operated a great deal out of Florida traveling back and forth between Arizona and Florida posing as a surveyor. His newletter was the "Outpost of Freedom" and he was associated with the Christian IDentity movement (White Supremacist group) and the Aryan nations group infiltrated by the FBI at Elohim City. Hunt also constantly tried to entrap militia groups around the country. He negotiated for David Koresh with the BATF at Waco. He traveled with his "stolen" wife and an American Indian and was seen in OKC at a motel, at a Total gas station near Murrah, and inside the Murrah building at the time of the OKC bombing. He corresponded with and knew McVeigh. Hunt masqueraded as an American Patriot.

The day of the OKC bombing Gary Hunt sent out a fax claiming that the OKC bombing was done to avenge the deaths of children killed at Waco AND IN IRAQ by the USG. He tried to get John Stadtmiler to provide a false Alibi for Hunt's whereabout's on the day of the OKC bombing-he tried to get Stadtmiller to say Hunt was in Floirda at a gun show at the time.

honway:

Gary Hunt used to post on internet sites encouraging "patriots" to follow McVeigh's "example." Hunt's participation on the internet included articles he had written advocating violence against the government and my personal view is that only someone acting as a government provocateur could do that over time without sanctions from the internet host or the government.

OKCSubmariner  posted on  2005-04-15   22:18:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: OKCSubmariner, christine (#125)

He tried to get John Stadtmiler to provide a false Alibi for Hunt's whereabout's on the day of the OKC bombing-he tried to get Stadtmiller to say Hunt was in Floirda at a gun show at the time.

Hmm interesting..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   22:23:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: OKCSubmariner (#125)

Someone had asked for a photo of Finchley and although I didnt find one.. I did find one article that mentioned a Harold Covington in connection with him.. ??

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   22:26:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: OKCSubmariner (#125)

JD Cash threatened my life

Wow. I remember him from the Chuck Harder show. Maybe Chuck wasn't what he seemed either.

MUDDOG  posted on  2005-04-15   23:03:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Zipporah (#127)

did find one article that mentioned a Harold Covington in connection with him

Could you post the article and/or the link to it? Thanks.

OKCSubmariner  posted on  2005-04-15   23:12:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: Continental Op (#59)

badeye made an almost identical statement to me, a few weeks ago. is it possible that the two of you agree on something?

So 2 people have said it to you, yet you still dismiss it?

You don't feel like "explaining" today? (Oh, my!) So what the hell are you doing on a comments forum??

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   23:17:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: TaZ (#76)

If someone really wanted to defeat the elite and their minions, "patriots" they wouldn't be re-hashing something that is a dead horse over & over again (OKC, Flight 800 etc.)

Wrong. Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

I want to know about these things, especially about the horrendous OKC bombing. Whoever perpetrated it is counting on our forgetting it. The secret is to NOT forget, but to continue to ask questions until the light shines on all of it.

I don't forget the Reichstag fire, and I wasn't even alive when it happened.

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   23:24:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: TaZ (#77)

I'm so deep in the enemie's lair I'm the last thing they have to watch

Sounds a bit over the top. And you're calling OTHER people "crazy"??

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   23:25:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: TaZ (#84)

my present status as In-House Press in a Federal Court...

I've been around federal courts a bit, but I don't recall hearing about this. What exactly is "In-House Press in a Federal Court"? Are you saying you are media relations person for a federal court?

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   23:28:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: TaZ (#92)

Christianity into sect-like cults makes me nauseous...

You'd rather see all of Christianity under Rome, as in the past?

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   23:31:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: TaZ (#100)

then again with the gov't. basically controlling the pipes for the Net, they could be using word recognition software...what a collosal waste of time that would be

Our government, engaging in a collossal waste of time?

Nah. That could never happen.

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   23:34:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: Zipporah, OKCSubmariner (#126)

He tried to get John Stadtmiler to provide a false Alibi for Hunt's whereabout's on the day of the OKC bombing-he tried to get Stadtmiller to say Hunt was in Floirda at a gun show at the time.

I asked John about this and he confirmed it.

christine  posted on  2005-04-15   23:36:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: Zipporah, Continental Op (#104)

I know how we can settle your difference of opinion. Let's have one of you begin a series of posts advocating the violent overthrow of the government. We'll see if anything comes of it.

Cont Op, I think you would be the most competent one to take on a job like this. So why don't you start now. Zipporah and the rest of us promise to have bail money ready, just in case. (Not that anything would happen... silly... lol.)

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   23:37:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: tom007 (#106)

I've certainly never seen anyone online tell the other posters that they were a member of the FBI or the BATF. Hell, FBI agents won't even let their picture be taken--not even for a church directory. (I know one whose family posed without him in the directory. I also went to school with the daughter of an FBI agent and she told me this was so.)

Besides, with the amount of BS that's flung around on all internet boards, no one would believe the poster anyway.

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   23:40:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#137)

Cont Op, I think you would be the most competent one to take on a job like this. So why don't you start now. Zipporah and the rest of us promise to have bail money ready, just in case. (Not that anything would happen... silly... lol.)

LOL!! (you think he'll buy it? I've got an expired credit card that we could use :P )

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   23:41:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: Continental Op (#108)

when I was a moderator.

Where were you a mod? At FR?

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   23:41:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: christine (#136)

I asked John about this and he confirmed it.

How strange.. what on earth? I tell ya nothing should surprise me..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   23:42:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#140)

Where were you a mod? At FR?

Hey there are thousands and thousands of forums.. hmm where else could it have been.. venture a guess ? :P

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   23:43:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: Zipporah, OKCSubmariner, anyone interested in the OKC Bombing Rally on the 19th20th (#141)

WingTV--today's show

christine  posted on  2005-04-15   23:45:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: OKCSubmariner (#125)

Very interesting. Given your encyclopedic knowledge on this subject, I think the buffoons who call you "paranoid" are as clueless as they come. They don't realize that with your intense study of the subject, you are indeed in a different situation than they are.

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   23:46:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t, Zipporah (#137)

hahahaha

christine  posted on  2005-04-15   23:47:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: christine (#143)

Thanks Chris!

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-15   23:51:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: Zipporah (#139)

Zipporah, this is serious! If we are to find out which of you is right on this issue, we must engage in empirical research! Continental Op is the perfect person to do this, due to his superior intellect and his ironclad self-control.

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   23:51:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#148. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#144)

Given your encyclopedic knowledge on this subject

i've spoken at length with OKCS and he blew me away with his knowledge of the case. the criticizers on this thread know NOT of which they speak.

christine  posted on  2005-04-15   23:51:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: Zipporah (#142)

venture a guess ?

Charmin toilet paper used to have a forum. On it, people were encouraged to discuss their experiences with Charmin. There was robust and thorough discussion of the qualities of their fine product.

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   23:53:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: christine (#145)

hahahaha

Continental Op is on the verge of making internet forum history, and of quite possibly making some new material which we may all enjoy on Court TV, and all you can do is laugh! (mmph... hee hee... mmph)

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   23:55:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#151. To: christine (#148)

So, while your average internet discusser of politics has nothing to fear from the "feds", that doesn't mean that someone who has delved so deeply into the OKC bombing has nothing to fear from them.

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-15   23:57:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#152. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#151)

yeah, i'd say that would be very true.

christine  posted on  2005-04-16   0:04:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#153. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t, Refinersfire, Christine, tom007, Fred Mertz, TommyTheMadArtist, lodwick, Brian S, swarthyguy, Uncle Bill, aristeides, itisa1mosttoolate, robin, Diana, Red Jones, honway, MUDDOG, Neil McIver, wakeup, fatidic, Zipporah, CWRWinger, Sparker (#127)

Zipporah:

Someone had asked for a photo of Finchley and although I didnt find one.. I did find one article that mentioned a Harold Covington in connection with him.. ??

I did a search on Finchley and Covington and found the article below at http://www.zundelsite.org/english/zgrams/zg1999/zg9906/990613.html. The article indicates that the original story I posted was fake. If it truly is a fake then you have my profound apologies. But someone should also wonder why the origianl story I posted is on the APFN website at http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi? disc=149495;article=80973;title=APFN.

However, everything posted on this F4um thread about Gary D. Hunt is factual.

I also discovered that the same link http://www.zundelsite.org/english/zgrams/zg1999/zg9906/990613.html is given at the very end, bottom of the APFN story site. I wonder if APFN wonders if the original story was a fake or that the story calling it a fake is itself a fake?? I do not know why it is on the APFN site this way and if they even realize this. I should have further investigated the site given at the bottom of the APFN story much earlier. I am very sorry.

Fake News Article Source Found

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/zgrams/zg1999/zg9906/990613.html

NNA featured an article yesterday detailing a fake news article entitled: "FBI Agent Penetrated the Heart of Darkness". After a detailed search of the AP Wire, Fox (the supposed source) and other news agencies, including calls to AP's Washington DC and NYC offices (who are very interested in who wrote this story for legal reasons), it was found to be a fraud intended to ruin the reputation of a devoted activist to our Cause.

This article was posted and e-mailed using a not-so-anonymous Hotmail address. Well known radio personality and author Kevin Alfred Strom (kevin.strom@innocent.com) traced the IP address of the original Usenet posting of this message. He found that the author was the well known forger, liar, and possible FBI agent (see http://209.196.26.118/) Harold Covington, who was the former "leader" of a bogus Internet organization using the stolen

name of "NSWPP". This is not the first use of forged or fake messages by Mr. Covington who had one time posted a fake resignation letter attributed to Kevin Strom (see http://209.196.26.118/articles/Resign.htm).

NNA and virtually every patriotic leader, activist and organization on the planet have universally condemned Harold Covington as a psychopath and a compulsive liar. Covington pops up periodically to distract and attract new racialists who don't know his background. Those who run across him are subscribed to his Internet ranting against their will and subjected to 20, 30 and sometimes 100 messages a day of attacks on various racialists and Nationalist organizations.

The Internet is a powerful weapon against our enemies as it allows us to reach millions with our message. It is also a powerful weapon in the hands of our enemies who know how to disrupt our progress and subvert our aims. Now is the time to focus and work harder than ever toward our goals. Don't give our enemies the satisfaction of sitting back and laughing at our follies while they march us toward oblivion.

Vincent Breeding

NNA Editor

OKCSubmariner  posted on  2005-04-16   0:04:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#154. To: OKCSubmariner (#153)

Geez, this stuff is so involved, I'm not sure who is faking what.

Okay, but if the Finchley stuff is "fake", there was still an assertion that the SPLC had at least one operative at Elohim City, right?

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-16   0:29:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#155. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#149)

Charmin toilet paper used to have a forum. On it, people were encouraged to discuss their experiences with Charmin. There was robust and thorough discussion of the qualities of their fine product.

LOL!!

Well heres just a sampling of a few others :P

flashlight forum

What Underwear Do You Wear forum

Fairy Forum

Drunk Friends forum

Sea Slug forum

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-16   0:32:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#156. To: OKCSubmariner (#153)

Thanks.. I did a search of Covington and there were a lot of really strange posts etc associated with that name.. extremist stuff.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-16   0:34:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#157. To: OKCSubmariner, Zipporah, Robin (#153)

I read the Finchley article, but it struck me as phony because of all the various people this guy was supposedly close to. For one person, he knew too many people and was involved with too many groups and activities. A few of the people mentioned are historians who are just after the truth, yet they were lumped in with the ever-dangerous "white supremecists". I felt it was just another attempt to slander all those bad old white racists, AKA white people.

From reading that article, it gave the impression that there are millions of them in this country just plotting and planning all sorts of frightening acts, which I think was the real agenda of that article.

It made the alarm bells go off in my head big time.

Diana  posted on  2005-04-16   1:06:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#158. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#132)

OKC: The article indicates that the original story I posted was fake.

I rest my case...

TaZ  posted on  2005-04-16   1:41:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#159. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t, Refinersfire, Christine, tom007, Fred Mertz, TommyTheMadArtist, lodwick, Brian S, swarthyguy, Uncle Bill, aristeides, itisa1mosttoolate, robin, Diana, Red Jones, honway, MUDDOG, Neil McIver, wakeup, fatidic, Zipporah, CWRWinger, Sparker (#154)

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t:

"..there was still an assertion that the SPLC had at least one operative at Elohim City, right? "

SPLC was linked to Elohim city by a Freeh memo obtained by a FOIA request last year:

Southern Poverty Law linked to OKC Bombing.

http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=7134

Morris Dees

A four page Federal Bureau of Investigations report, straight from the desk of then FBI director Louis Freeh, dated January 4, 1996, brings to light an undercover operation conducted by the Southern Poverty Law Center involving convicted OKC bomber Timothy McVeigh.

The McCurtain Daily Gazette, an Idabel, Oklahoma newspaper, recently obtained a copy of the aforementioned FBI cable and ran a story on Dec. 14, 2003, that disclosed earth shattering information concerning the OKC bombing. The most startling revelation involved the purported civil rights group, headed by Morris Dees, conducting an "intelligence gathering operation" at Elohim City, a "white supremacist compound" long suspected of being heavily infiltrated by federal agents.

At a press conference before a speaking engagement at Southeastern Oklahoma University on Nov.11, 2003, Morris Dees admitted that SPLC had an agent operating inside Elohim City on April 17, 1995, just two days before the OKC bombing which according to the FBI report is the day Timothy McVeigh placed a call to certain persons at Elohim City. Dees further stated that " Timothy McVeigh probably was at Elohim City, based on evidence we've been able to pick up - stuff I can't really go into." He also said, "We work very closely with the CIA, FBI, ATF."

This new information when coupled with the fact that the federal governments alphabet soup organizations seem to be intertwined with subversive movements such as the Southern Poverty Law Center, the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai Brith and the Jewish Defense League to the extent that U.S law enforcement agencies have in the past farmed out intelligence operations to these said anti- freedom groups we can begin to understand the ineffectiveness of the investigations surrounding one of the most horrific terrorist attacks to take place on American soil.

Some other groundbreaking admissions enclosed in former FBI director Louis Freeh's cable include the following "Prior OKBOMB investigation determined that (named withheld) had placed a telephone call to (name withheld) on April 5, 1995, a day he was believed to have been attempting to recruit a second conspirator to assist in the OKBOMB attack."

The gov't. spin has always been that McVeigh and Nichols had been plotting and scheming together dating back to the fall of 1994, but according to the FBI report at least up to April 5, 1995, just two weeks before the OKC bombing a second conspirator did not exist. Obviously this leads to the question ,who was the second conspirator on April 19,1995, ? An agent provacateur perhaps? Well the answer to this question might also be found in the directors report when he refers to a person at Elohim City as having a long relationship with one of the two indicted conspirators.

Even after these stunning admissions, nearly 9 years after the fact justice has not been served, but it is refreshing to know that the trail leading to the true conspirators is not as cold as was once believed.

OKCSubmariner  posted on  2005-04-16   3:38:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#160. To: OKCSubmariner (#159)

Thanks! I am still stunned by the quickness with which McVeigh was executed. If we were to take all the people executed in this country in, say, the last 20 years, and rank them according to the speed with which their executions were carried out, I think McVeigh would come in at first place.

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-16   7:59:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#161. To: TaZ (#158)

I rest my case...

Sorry, counsel, you've forgotten that there's such a thing as rebuttal. The poster you've been vilifying got on here and TOLD everyone the problems with the story HE posted. Which is more than you lying bots would do.

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-16   8:01:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#162. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#133)

Courts can have reporters assigned to them. For example, Linda Greenhouse is (she certainly was, I think she still is) New York Times correspondent for the Supreme Court.

aristeides  posted on  2005-04-16   9:49:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#163. To: Diana (#157)

Back in the 1960's, it was notorious that a high percentage of the members of the American Communist Party were FBI informants. In fact, some of the most vociferous of them were FBI agents provocateurs.

aristeides  posted on  2005-04-16   9:51:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#164. To: aristeides (#162)

Courts can have reporters assigned to them. For example, Linda Greenhouse is (she certainly was, I think she still is) New York Times correspondent for the Supreme Court.

Thanks for the explanation. Well, then... I don't believe the NYT or other national press have seen fit to send anyone down here to our federal courts. I just can't imagine why they don't view them as important enough to have assigned correspondents.

Our federal courts may not rate, but our state supreme court is housed in a larger building than is the U.S. Supreme Court. Now THAT'S impressive! (cough)

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-16   10:06:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#165. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#131)

Wrong. Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

I want to know about these things, especially about the horrendous OKC bombing. Whoever perpetrated it is counting on our forgetting it. The secret is to NOT forget, but to continue to ask questions until the light shines on all of it.

I don't forget the Reichstag fire, and I wasn't even alive when it happened.

Now cut that out.. you're making too much sense here.. :P

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-16   10:18:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#166. To: Zipporah (#96)

His name is Bill Israel. Pp. 270-71 of Bush's Brain.

aristeides  posted on  2005-04-16   10:40:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#167. To: Zipporah, h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#165)

I don't forget the Reichstag fire, and I wasn't even alive when it happened.

They covered their traces so well that historians still consider it unproven that the Nazis were behind the Reichstag fire.

Myself, I find to be decisive a fact that Hans Bernd Gisevius stressed in his book To the Bitter End: on the evening of the Reichstag fire, at the height of an election campaign, the three leading orators of the Nazi Party -- Hitler, Göring, and Goebbels -- all happened to be at home in Berlin and without any speaking engagements for the evening.

aristeides  posted on  2005-04-16   10:43:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: aristeides, Jethro Tull (#163)

Back in the 1960's, it was notorious that a high percentage of the members of the American Communist Party were FBI informants. In fact, some of the most vociferous of them were FBI agents provocateurs.

I think it's even worse today. I think every "group" who is anti-CORRUPT government in any way at all, or groups who dare to assert their rights, are totally infiltrated.

christine  posted on  2005-04-16   10:54:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#169. To: OKCSubmariner (#159)

He also said, "We work very closely with the CIA, FBI, ATF."

This new information when coupled with the fact that the federal governments alphabet soup organizations seem to be intertwined with subversive movements such as the Southern Poverty Law Center, the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai Brith and the Jewish Defense League to the extent that U.S law enforcement agencies have in the past farmed out intelligence operations to these said anti- freedom groups we can begin to understand the ineffectiveness of the investigations surrounding one of the most horrific terrorist attacks to take place on American soil.

oh thats nice.. farming out intelligence operations .. like these people are unbiased?

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-16   10:58:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#170. To: aristeides, tom007 (#166)

His name is Bill Israel. Pp. 270-71 of Bush's Brain.

Thank you.. I think the poster's nick was named as well was it not?

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-16   11:01:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#171. To: christine (#168)

I think every "group" who is anti-CORRUPT government in any way at all, or groups who dare to assert their rights, are totally infiltrated.

I agree. The 20th century KKK is an example of a "manufactured" hate group, IMO.

CWRWinger  posted on  2005-04-16   11:05:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: aristeides (#167)

To the Bitter End: on the evening of the Reichstag fire, at the height of an election campaign, the three leading orators of the Nazi Party -- Hitler, Göring, and Goebbels -- all happened to be at home in Berlin and without any speaking engagements for the evening.

Gee things never change now do they.. ?? Speaking engagements.. reading goat books to little children.. hmm..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-16   11:07:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#173. To: OKCSubmariner (#153)

AP's Washington DC and NYC offices (who are very interested in who wrote this story for legal reasons),

And who are they going to turn to for help? The FBI? the courts? The Justice Dept.? An attorney?

The article you posted upon first read, has a ring of truth to it. But one would have know the names, places and events to verify what it says.

CWRWinger  posted on  2005-04-16   11:12:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#174. To: Zipporah (#172)

reading goat books to little children..

That goat book fits Bush's M.O. as well. Sometimes these statists use every opportunity advance their Satanic cause.

CWRWinger  posted on  2005-04-16   11:15:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#175. To: Zipporah (#170)

I think the poster's nick was named as well was it not?

"Thor."

aristeides  posted on  2005-04-16   11:15:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#176. To: aristeides, tom007 (#175)

"Thor."

Great.. thanks so much

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-16   14:12:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#177. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#140)

defunct militia talk board...

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-16   21:03:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#178. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#137)

Cont Op, I think you would be the most competent one to take on a job like this. So why don't you start now. Zipporah and the rest of us promise to have bail money ready, just in case. (Not that anything would happen... silly... lol.)

lol. I've seen it happen before...but not recently and not on large forums...

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-16   21:07:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#179. To: Continental Op (#177)

defunct militia talk board...

Do you support the AWB?

CWRWinger  posted on  2005-04-16   21:09:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#180. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#138)

I also went to school with the daughter of an FBI agent and she told me this was so.

I see you're still providing credible sources...btw, how long has it been since you got out of school?

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-16   21:09:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: CWRWinger (#179)

Do you support the AWB?

no. how did we get onto that subject?

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-16   21:15:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#182. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#130)

So what the hell are you doing on a comments forum??

I could ask you the identical question.

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-16   21:16:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#183. To: Continental Op (#181)

no. how did we get onto that subject?

Sorry for being off topic.

A militia board would talk about those things (AWB), I would think.

CWRWinger  posted on  2005-04-16   21:19:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: CWRWinger (#183)

A militia board would talk about those things (AWB), I would think.

yes there was and is a great deal firearms discussion on such boards. if you don't already post there I'd recommend Assaultweb.net and Frugals Forums, two boards which have well survived the downsizing of the Militia movement.

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-16   21:26:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#185. To: Continental Op (#184)

Assaultweb.net and Frugals Forums, two boards which have well survived the downsizing of the Militia movement.

Owned by Guvco, Inc.

CWRWinger  posted on  2005-04-16   21:31:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#186. To: CWRWinger (#185)

Owned by Guvco, Inc.

no kidding. you learn something every day...

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-16   21:39:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#187. To: All (#186)

confidentially, I'm beginning to get the impression that this forum is owned by Guvco.Inc.

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-16   21:41:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#188. To: Continental Op (#187)

confidentially, I'm beginning to get the impression that this forum is owned by Guvco.Inc.

Say what?? yeah ya got it all figured out.. DUH.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-16   21:44:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#189. To: Zipporah (#188)

Say what?? yeah ya got it all figured out.. DUH.

zoomed right in on that one, didn't you?

okay...so I'm wrong...they couldn't, after all, be that desperate...

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-16   21:46:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#190. To: Continental Op (#187)

I thought Al Gore owned all this internet stuff. Him and the Moonies. J Farrah is an arabist pinko, yeah, that's the ticket.

How's that for off topic?

Dakmar  posted on  2005-04-16   21:47:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#191. To: Dakmar (#190)

How's that for off topic?

I'll go you one better....and then again, I won't...

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-16   21:49:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#192. To: Continental Op (#189)

I see that you yet again are your charming self.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-16   21:50:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#193. To: Zipporah (#192)

have a drink, it'll thicken your skin. buy American! especially American vodka.. .

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-16   21:54:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#194. To: Continental Op (#187)

confidentially, I'm beginning to get the impression that this forum is owned by Guvco.Inc

dammit. "Agent DD" busted.

christine  posted on  2005-04-16   21:57:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#195. To: christine (#194)

have a drink, it'll thicken your skin. buy American! especially American vodka.. .

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-16   21:58:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#196. To: Continental Op (#193)

have a drink, it'll thicken your skin.

and cloud your thinking apparently..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-16   22:01:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#197. To: Zipporah (#196)

and cloud your thinking apparently..

is that a bad thing? If I have to watch a man drown, I'd rather watch while less than sober...

Continental Op  posted on  2005-04-16   22:06:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#198. To: Continental Op (#197)

is that a bad thing? If I have to watch a man drown, I'd rather watch while less than sober...

Hey ya got a point..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-16   22:08:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#199. To: christine (#194)

"Agent DD" busted.

Maybe he's Agent AA.

crack monkey  posted on  2005-04-16   23:52:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#200. To: Zipporah (#196)

have a drink, it'll thicken your skin.

and cloud your thinking apparently..

I think I'm beginning to understand this situation. hic.

crack monkey  posted on  2005-04-16   23:54:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#201. To: Continental Op (#189)

zoomed right in on that one, didn't you?

okay...so I'm wrong...they couldn't, after all, be that desperate...

ROFLMAO

Looney Toonz theme softly playing in the background

TaZ  posted on  2005-04-17   1:43:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#202. To: OKCSubmariner, h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t, continental op, Christine, tom007, Fred Mertz, TommyTheMadArtist, lodwick, Brian S, swarthyguy, Uncle Bill, aristeides, itisa1mosttoolate, robin, Diana, Red Jones, honway, MUDDOG, wakeup, fatidic, Zipporah, CWRWinger (#61)

NM:Does it really matter if there are feds posting there [LP]?

Damn right it can and does matter. Here's why:

..(he was).. always shouting the loudest of any among his White supremacist cohorts. He drank beer with Skinhead gangs, swapped jokes with them about African-Americans, Hispanics, and Jews, and heard them plot hate crimes and racial assaults. He cruised the Internet, posting racist messages to computer bulletin boards and newsgroups,...

I wonder what would have happened when and if Gold-Lox, you or Jim Rob had banned Finchley or other Feds like him on message boards and newsgroups like LP or FR when they started shouting and spreading rascist hatred against other posters like me who were crtical of the FBI handling of OKC, 1993 WTC, 9-11 etc?

You may have forgotten Neil, but the posters from Consolidated Freeping who posted on FR and LP concocted a fake post to plant on FR and on LP to try to make it look like I was associated with the White Supremicists. honway caught them at it and posted the the proof. Also honway and I detected that the fake posts were assocaited with reporter Jayna Davis and appararently Feds who got a green light back in 2002 after new legislation was passed to allow the Feds to do things (DISRUPT and intentinonaly try to PROVOKE and ENTRAP) on newsgroups previously not allowed by law.

I think it surprising and eye opening to see the lengths the feds went to in sending someone undercover for 10 years. That this guy was paid federal tax dollars to, among other things stand out in a street and hurl racial remarks and promote racism says an aweful lot. Certainly it can be said that his undercover efforts promoted the very matter the feds found cause to investigate for prosecution (entrapment for anyone who joined the movement due to his efforts).

As an aside, I suppose the only thing that might have smoked him out was if the persons/organizations he was sent to demanded he notory sign a non-disclosure agreement and promise he was not on the fed payroll under civil and purjury penalty. In doing so, any testimony he might offer would place him in criminal and/or civil violations. Of course the feds might then just pass a law allowing fed agents to not be liable for signing such things to maintain cover.

But there is one important difference between a fed agent joining an organization and one posting to an internet forum: No agent can testify that any specific person posted particular content to the site. Even those of us who use our real names, if we got into a courtroom and an agent was asked to point to the guy posting under my screen name would not be able to do it, even if he knows what I look like. He would have to witness me actually typing this note up in this room I'm in right now. I think forums are useless for prosecution purposes.

The only real purpose for fed agents to post on these forums is to cause damage, and at that point they are spending tax money to campaign an idea. IOW, engaging in propaganda. That is what you're claiming, and it wouldn't be the first time, as Fed funds have been openly used to campaign against state ballot initiatives that would decriminalize marijuana, which is purely a political matter.

LP seems to have become pretty much a mudslinging site. The more it is, the less I'd expect any outside interests to care about it, including the feds.

Neil McIver  posted on  2005-04-19   3:01:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#203. To: Neil McIver, all (#202)

Neil. If you're up, turn on George Norey's Coast to Coast.

Peter Lance is being interviewed. He's fascinating.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2005-04-19   3:43:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#204. To: Neil McIver (#202)

I think forums are useless for prosecution purposes.

There was however a guy on FR (I don't remember his screen name) who got visited by federal cops for posting supposed threats against Clinton when he was president.

MUDDOG  posted on  2005-04-19   9:49:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#205. To: MUDDOG (#204)

That would be gonzo.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2005-04-19   9:55:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#206. To: Fred Mertz (#205)

Right you are. It was a big deal back then.

MUDDOG  posted on  2005-04-19   10:03:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#207. To: ALL (#2)

BTTT

Press 1 for English, Press 2 for English, Press 3 for deportation

Uncle Bill  posted on  2018-02-06   2:36:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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