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Title: Demand For Monetary Reform
Source: Money, Manipulation and Social Order by Fr. Denis Fahey
URL Source: [None]
Published: Dec 1, 1943
Author: Various
Post Date: 2006-12-01 14:52:24 by bluegrass
Ping List: *New History*
Keywords: None
Views: 652
Comments: 48

Demand For Monetary Reform in England: 1943 Letter

The following letter was written and sent in 1943. It was addressed to His Excellency, Most Reverend William Godfrey, the Apostolic Delegate to Great Britain, and to the Anglican Archbishops of Canterbury, York and Wales and to other ecclesiastical dignitaries in Britain.

It's signed by 32 people, a Nobel Laureate and two aviation pioneers among them. One of the signatories, Frederick Soddy (the Nobel prize winner of the lot) said:

"The most sinister and anti-social feature about bank-deposit money is that it has no existence. The banks owe the public for a total amount of money which does not exist. In buying and selling, implemented by cheque transactions, there is a mere change in the party to the whom the money is owed by the banks. As the one depositor's account is debited, the other is credited and the banks can go on owing for it all the time.

"The whole profit of the issuance of money has provided the capital of the great banking business as it exists today. Starting with nothing whatever of their own, they have got the whole world into their debt irredeemably, by a trick.

"This money comes into existence every time the banks 'lend' and disappears every time the debt is repaid to them. So that if industry tries to repay, the money of the nation disappears."

Things haven't changed one iota since this letter was written 60 years ago, and have become a damn sight worse.

----------

Your Grace,

(1) We, all of British blood and descent, having studied the fundamental causes of the present world unrest, have long been forced to the conclusion that an essential first step towards the return of human happiness and brotherhood with economic security and liberty of life and conscience, such as will permit the Christian ethic to flourish again is the immediate resumption by the community in each nation of its prerogative over the issue of money including its modern credit substitutes.

(2) This prerogative has been usurped by those still termed in general "banker", both national and international, who have perfected a technique to enable themselves to create the money they lend by granting of bookkeeping credits, and to destroy it by the withdrawal of the latter at their discretion, in accordance with entirely mistaken and obsolete ideas which they do not defend against impartial and informed scientific criticism and examination. In this way, a form of national money debt has been invented, in which the lender surrenders nothing at all; and which is physically an impossibility for the community ever to pay. Any attempt to do so produces the artificial "economic blizzard", as it did after the 1914-18 war.

(3) This has led to the gradual rise of a form of national, international and supra-national power, dominating through its monopolisaton of the National social credit all the basic creative activities of mankind. Thus, in this as in other countries, it has become impossible to obtain publication in the press, or to broadcast on the radio, the truth concerning this economic enslavement which holds the peoples of the world in thrall.

(4) Under the world's present financial system the money, except for a now trifling portion, is originally created by the issue of a loan at interest by the "bankers", who lend nothing of themselves but in effect make a forced levy in kind on the Nation by conferring on the borrower the power to purchase a corresponding amount of wealth on the market, which wealth does not belong to them, or those who borrow from them, but to the community. The proceeds of the issue of new money - whether of paper or any other form of credit money - belong to the Nation in which it is, or is accepted as, legal tender, and not to the issuer. Herein lies the basic flaw of the existing monetary system.

(5) By this method, which has come to be regarded as legal by virtue of established practice, the banks in our country are responsible for the issue of new money of their own creation amounting today to between two and three thousand million pounds - this being the difference between loans extended, including those to themselves, and those repaid since they instituted the system a number of years ago - and are thereby extracting by means of interest an annual tribute from the Nation of over £100,000,000 for what has now become to them a relatively costless and riskless service. But the real danger, well understood in every preceding era of history, is the undermining of all lawfully constituted authority by the creation and destruction of money carried on in secret for private gain and the acquisition of power.

(6) All forms of government, whether conservative, liberal or labour, fascist, socialist or communist, fall alike under the control of a political Power Group, which is ultimately, and in large measure unwittingly, dominated by the Money Creators and Manipulators. In this way the national political power, which, if the individual is to enjoy the maximum of personal freedom consistent with his duty to his conscience and his fellows, should be distributed throughout the people, has been usurped without their knowledge and consent.

(7) It will be seen that the present monetary system, which by its disregard of primary physical and ethical laws is inevitably destroying the civilisation into which it has been introduced, requires rectification both in the material technique and in the ethics which at present inspire and control this technique. It is particularly in view of its devastating effects in the moral sphere that we have ventured to refer to Ecclesiastical Authority, and to invoke the Churches to action.

(8) We therefore appeal to you in your position of great authority and influence to proclaim the truth to the Nation on this subject and in the hope that you may see fit to disseminate as widely as possible the text of this statement, whereby this vitally important question may be brought to the light of day and earnestly enquired into by the peoples of the British Commonwealth.

(9) We do so in all Christian fellow-feeling, knowing and honouring the efforts you are making against the abuses of our present economic system and the evils of usury, and believing that the world is now in the gravest crisis of its history. The issue of new money by the money-lender is an unforeseen result of the modern cheque as a substitute for national money _ a valuable invention which in itself was undoubtedly social and benevolent in intention and effect. If the cheque system were corrected, as it can be simply corrected, to restore to the nations their rightful prerogative over the issue of money, there is every reason to retain it. We fully appreciate the services which banking organisations have rendered and can continue to render to the community. But the issue and destruction of money by the money-lender is not a service, but a weapon which can be and has been unsed to perpetuate poverty amidst abundance, which renders individuals and nations powerless to protect themselves, and which may even be perverted to serve vast designs for the complete subjugation of the human race to tyranny, exploitation and the powers of darkness and evil.

NORMAN A. THOMPSON (A.M.I.E.E., Research Engineer, Inventor of the Norman Thompson Flying Boat, 1914, and other developments in aviation and in mechanical propulsion; Originator of this appeal)

FREDERICK SODDY (M.A., LL.D., F.R.S, Nobel Laureate in Chemistry, 1921; pioneer in the Economics of Wealth, author of Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt (1926), Money versus Man (1931), Role of Money (1934))

J. CREAGH SCOTT (D.S.O., O.B.E., Lt. Col; Chairman, The Farmer's Action Council; Advisory Chairman, The Service for Economic Action)

REGINALD ROWE (Kt., author of The Root of All Evil)

JOHN HARGRAVE (F.R.S.A.; inventor of the Hargrave Automatic Navigator for Aircraft (1937); Economic Advisor to the Planning Commission of HM Govt. of Alberta (1936-7); Founder and Leader of the Social Credit Party of GB)

WILFRID HILL (Industrialist, Birmingham and London; President, Comite International de Echanges, Paris; Chairman, Econ. and Monetary Joint Council, London; Anglo-American Comm. World Trade Alliance)

CHARLES TURNER (Mechanical and Mining Engineer; Knowles Gold Medallist; inventor of the Oil-from-Coal Process and Plant)

ALLIOT VERDON-ROE (Kt., O.B.E., F.R.Ae.S., M.I.Ae.E.; Aviation Pioneer)

A. G. SEAMAN (M.I.E.E.; Inventor of Automatic Sorting of Heavy Goods) ---

(ed. note: Also signed by 24 other authors, MPs, economists, businessmen and other notables of the day).

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#1. To: Zoroaster, BTP Holdings, Jethro Tull, Tauzero, Red Jones, Lady X, noone222, Brian S, christine, Zipporah, robin, Peetie Wheatstraw, HOUNDDAWG, Uncle Bill, Dakmar, tom007, aristeides, scrapper2, innieway, lodwick (#0)

All forms of government, whether conservative, liberal or labour, fascist, socialist or communist, fall alike under the control of a political Power Group, which is ultimately, and in large measure unwittingly, dominated by the Money Creators and Manipulators. In this way the national political power, which, if the individual is to enjoy the maximum of personal freedom consistent with his duty to his conscience and his fellows, should be distributed throughout the people, has been usurped without their knowledge and consent.

Save this letter, print it out and pass it around when the economic hammer falls in America this coming year.

"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson

bluegrass  posted on  2006-12-01   15:08:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: bluegrass (#0)

Buy gold. Trade in gold and silver.

Screw greenbacks.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2006-12-01   15:09:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: bluedogtxn (#2)

Buy gold.

That's kind of the point. Until the imposition of fractional reserve, gold and silver weren't bought. Money creation is the method by which banksters steal metals.

"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson

bluegrass  posted on  2006-12-01   15:14:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: bluegrass (#3)

That's kind of the point. Until the imposition of fractional reserve, gold and silver weren't bought. Money creation is the method by which banksters steal metals.

Well, right now it is legal to buy gold and silver coins at pretty close to their melt down value, and you can even do it on-line, sometimes cheaper that way. For a while wasn't buying gold illegal?

For goldbugs like me, get it while you can.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2006-12-01   15:23:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: bluedogtxn (#4)

For a while wasn't buying gold illegal?

Owning it was illegal at one point, iirc.

Metal is the short-term method of protection for the individual. As a community, we need other forms of protection from predators.

"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson

bluegrass  posted on  2006-12-01   15:48:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: bluegrass (#0)

I guess that this brilliant letter got lost in the mail...

The satanic controllers will not willingly give up their ownership of the fiat money scam.

"Taxes are not raised to carry on wars, wars are raised to carry on taxes."
-Thomas Paine

Lod  posted on  2006-12-01   15:58:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: bluedogtxn. all (#4)

Well, right now it is legal to buy gold and silver coins at pretty close to their melt down value, and you can even do it on-line, sometimes cheaper that way.

Our man at http://www.onlygold.com trades Krugs for only 2% over spot, and that includes insured shipping to your door.

"Taxes are not raised to carry on wars, wars are raised to carry on taxes."
-Thomas Paine

Lod  posted on  2006-12-01   16:01:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: bluegrass (#0)

FREDERICK SODDY (M.A., LL.D., F.R.S, Nobel Laureate in Chemistry, 1921; pioneer in the Economics of Wealth, author of Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt (1926), Money versus Man (1931), Role of Money (1934))

Soddy is a long forgotten and much maligned economist who knew the mechanics of raw material economics. He was one of the pioneers of that movement in the 1930s and helped to develop the programs which were implemented during WW II.

The financiers and industrialists who backed Hitler, and subsequently lost control of him, needed a stable currency during the war, hence the program of price controls and parity payments to farmers and raw material producers.

After Hitler was beaten parity was finally removed by Eisenhower in 1953. He was warned that to lower parity to 60% would cause a depression 4 years hence, the length of time which it takes for the economic engine to turn a full cycle.

History shows us that there was a severe recession in 1957-58. The work has already been done to show what works. It is all in the literature. More info: http://www.normeconomics.com

"It is the old practice of despots to use a part of the people to keep the rest in order; and those who have once got an ascendency and possessed themselves of all the resources of the nation, their revenues and offices, have immense means for retaining their advantages." Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1798

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-12-01   16:11:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: bluegrass, Zoroaster, BTP Holdings, Jethro Tull, Tauzero, Red Jones, Lady X, noone222, Brian S, christine, Zipporah, robin, Peetie Wheatstraw, HOUNDDAWG, Uncle Bill, Dakmar, tom007, aristeides, scrapper2, lodwick (#1)

Save this letter, print it out and pass it around when the economic hammer falls in America this coming year.

    I don't know if the economic hammer will fall this coming year, but make no mistake about it - it WILL fall... I apologize for this post being so long, BUT it something we all should take the time to read.

    Have you ever heard of the Figgie Report? Harry E, Figgie, Jr., Chairman and CEO of Figgie International Inc. and founder of the Action Group to Save America's Economy, gave a lecture to the League of Women Voters in Cleveland Ohio on July 26, 1990, from which the following is extracted:

"I am here today because I fully believe that this great country is heading into serious trouble, because of the government's dangerous inability to reduce its debt or control ongoing budget deficits.

I became involved in this issue quite by accident in 1982, when Peter Grace made me co-chairman of the President's Private Sector Survey on Cost Control - the Grace Commission. And as a result of that, I became privy to some information that showed me how threatening our government's spending policies are.

This past Tuesday, I met with several congressmen on the subject, including Congressman Dennis Eckhart from Cleveland and Congressman Dick Armey from Texas. I showed six different congressmen the debt and deficit projections, and every one of them said, "Gee, I didn't know it was that bad. I didn't realize where we were headed."

I want to put this massive problem into the context of the person in the street, and show you why the government is headed into real trouble. Let's say you have a net take-home pay of $1,000, and you take $100 of that $1,000 and put it into some kind of pension plan, like a Keogh or an IRA... The other $900 just makes ends meet. Now suppose somebody gives you free credit cards... But you realize you can't use these credit cards.

Then, all of a sudden, you meet a very tall man, with a long white beard, a big stovepipe hat, red and white striped pants, and a blue coat with stars all over it. And he says, "My name is Sam - Uncle Sam. I am a financial advisor. I want you to follow my advice. I want you to use your credit cards. When they bill you, just send them a 30-year IOU at 8 percent interest."

And you say, "Yeah, but I have to pay the interest, even if they accept the IOUs."

Sam says, "Do you remember that $100 you were putting in a pension? Take that hundred bucks and use that to pay the interest, and put an IOU in your pension. Twenty years from now, you'll have 20 years of IOUs, but what do you care?"

And you remind him, "Uncle Sam, there's a difference between you and me. You have a printing press in your basement which gives you unlimited credit, but I'm going to go to jail if I do that."

Let me explain the difference between deficit and debt... The deficit is the shortfall we have in any one year. If you take in $100 billion and spend $110 billion, you get a deficit of $10 billion. Now at the end of that year, you've got to do something with that $10 billion you owe, so you move it over to your long-term shortfall - and that becomes your debt.

In '82, the annual deficit was $128 billion, up from $4 billion in 1974. The debt in '82 was at $1 trillion, up from $484 billion in '74. But it had taken us 200 years from the start of the republic until 1974 to create that debt of $484 billion. We had gone through World War I, World War II, the Korean War, Vietnam - and we still had a very manageable situation.

Since 1982, when the debt fist hit a trillion dollars, it has tripled - it is now $3 trillion.

    (Poster Comment) - It took us over 200 years from the start of the Republic to 1982 to get to our first !1 trillion in debt. Then it took another 8 years to add another $2 trillion to that debt. It has now taken only another 16 years to add another $5 trillion to it - which amounts to a higher rate per year than the 8 year period between '82 and '90...

Back in '82, I said, "Well, we have some time and nobody's going to be this stupid. We're going to get people to understand this thing." And I'm sorry to tell you that as I stand here in 1990, we're somewhere between 1990 and 1993 in our deficit projections, a little ahead of target. I was with Senator Robert Dole the other day - he'd just come from the White House budget negotiations - and he said, "We didn't make any progress again today, but we will."

Now you've all heard about Gramm-Rudman. It used to be Gramm, Rudman and Hollings, but Senator Hollings said he wanted a divorce from the bill because it was such a travesty. Gramm-Rudman originally said we would have a zero deficit in 1991, but revised that to $60 to $65 billion a couple years later. The reason Congress runs around like chickens with their heads off right now is, technically - unless they get a budget agreement - they have to cut $100 billion out of the budget this year, because they're at $168 billion.

The thing I want to tell you is that the $168 billion you hear is a travesty - a lie foisted on the American people.

Remember all those IOUs that you were peeling out to your pension fund and your credit card fees? Government doesn't count those as part of the cash deficit. We have, for six years, run an actual deficit in the U.S. government of over $250 billion, and this year we're running between $360 and $435 billion.

Let me explain that to you. Start with the Gramm-Rudman bill. That's $168 billion. Now, remember the credit card example, when you took $100 away from the Keogh or the IRA and you sent them an IOU? The government is doing that to nine trust funds, including Social Security, military pensions, railway pensions, and postal pensions. Uncle Sam is taking $120 billion in trust fund surpluses and replacing that with IOUs. Instead of funding them with cash, they're funding them with federal deficit. They don't count those IOUs or the interest on them. And when those IOUs start coming due, the government is going to owe trillions to Social Security, which will be supporting more retirees with fewer workers.

So that's the first thing that's been foisted off on the people. The S&L crisis is another. Mosbacher, our country's head economist, made very sure when Bush stuck his neck out on the savings and loan crisis that those costs were taken off the deficit. Current estimates are that the S&Ls will cost us $500 billion overall, and $100 billion next year. There's another $100 billion that's not being counted.

So the deficit has gone from $168 billion to $388 billion, and I haven't talked to you about the student loan problem... the $300 to $500 billion toxic waste cleanup that's going to come from our military bases... crack babies or AIDS or any new programs Congress is talking about.

My estimate is that at $500 billion, we lose our capability to control that by taxation, and we run the risk of... hyperinflation.

To find out about hyperinflation, we looked at all the countries in the world... We picked Argentina, Brazil and Bolivia as the best examples.

Now the problem I run into when I talk to people about this is that they say, "Oh, you studied the Banana Republic." And I have two parts to my answer. The first is, "Welcome to the United States Banana Republic." And the second answer, and most people don't know this, is that in 1938, the fifth largest market in the world was the country of Argentina. It was very sophisticated, very well run, and very knowledgeable. It had excellent agriculture, excellent manufacturing, and resources. They are now the world's 78th largest market. So, if you think it can't happen in the United States, it can. It happened in Argentina.

For our study, we were very fortunate because we were able to meet with 80 top businessmen..., government officials, bankers, financial executives. Dr. Gerry Swanson, an economist from the University of Arizona, led the team... They took four trips over a two-year period.

All 80 of these businessmen said to us, "What's wrong with the United States? You are on exactly the same course that we were on, but about 20 to 30 years behind us."

They said, "Everything that we did wrong, you are doing wrong. For example, you have large deficits. You have a deterioration in your balance of payments. You have eroded the confidence in your currency. You have a tendency to blame outsiders and call for protectionism. And finally, the exchange value of your currency is falling." Twice since the mid-'70s we've devalued our currency and there's pressure now to devalue again.

They said, "All five factors are in place, and the United States is following the path to hyperinflation. We can't understand why you can't see it coming."

When Gerry came back from his last trip, I said, "Gerry, give me a synopsis." He said, "Well, for years in my economic courses at the University of Arizona, I've been teaching that deficits cause inflation." Then he said, "They do. I just saw it in three countries."

I said, "Okay, tell me about hyperinflation. How much time do you have before hyperinflation sets in?" He said, "In Brazil, it set in in three days."

    (Poster Comment) Did you get that? THREE DAYS What would you do if hyperinflation set in here in 3 days????

Now, the terrible thing about hyperinflation is once it gets started, you can't stop it... During the time we were studying this, Argentina's inflation hit 5,000 percent, Brazil's got to 5,000 percent, and Bolivia's got to 25,000 percent with bursts up to 50,000.

Let me tell you how bad that is. We have a book here that we published on how to survive hyperinflation if you're a businessman. We have a picture of a guy with a huge bag going into a bank in Bolivia. At the bank they simply weighed it, and they gave him a note of exchange. Now the terrible thing about that is nobody looked in the bag. They didn't care whether he had newspapers in there, old socks, $1,000 bills, $10,000 bills or dollar bills. They didn't care what it was, it was so worthless. That is what happens in hyperinflation.

So to say that this can't happen here is wrong. I hear the argument periodically that the reason it won't happen to us is that our deficit is only 5 percent of our gross national product. The Brazilian and Argentine deficits are only 8 percent of their gross national products. It's not a huge jump from 5 to 8 percent. So when these economists give you the garbage that our deficit is only a few percentage points of the gross national product, it doesn't mean a thing...

For eight years, I've been ready to beat my head against Congress, but it wasn't until we got to this so-called "budget crisis" that I could even get in to see these congressmen...

If Argentina can go from fifth to 78th because of this kind of deficit problem, we can go from first to 50th, very, very easily. You hear people jumping on us over becoming a second-rate power, and here I'm talking about a third-rate power in the United States...

But, I guarantee you, if this hits... your savings, your bonds, your insurance, your pension - you might as well use them for tissue, because they aren't going to be good for anything else..."

    (Poster Comment)Folks, we aren't talking about whether this ship is going to hit an iceburg. This ship has already hit the iceburg - now all we're talking about is how long before it sinks. We're sitting on the deck wondering when to man the lifeboats. Problem is, there aren't enough lifeboats for everybody. I'd suggest you find a lifeboat NOW!!

    When hyperinflation hits, a lot of people are gonna lose everything.. Just like a poker game, there will be winner(s) and there will be losers. And the ONLY way to win in this game is to be ahead of the game. Don't think for one minute that just because you have a nice nest egg in the stock market it will help you one little iota... You'd better be prepared to either be able to produce all the food you need (along with other necessities), OR have it stocked up - and I'd say you should prepare for a minimum of several years worth....

    Remember, history has shown that things can get super ugly in less than a week. And don't think for a minute that you can prepare for survival for several years in a week!!!

No absurdity is so palpable but that it may be firmly planted in the human head if you only begin to inculcate it before age five, by constantly repeating it with an air of great solemnity. - Arthur Schopenhauer

innieway  posted on  2006-12-01   16:30:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: innieway (#9)

Excellent post. Many thanks.

"...it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children." -Thomas Jefferson

bluegrass  posted on  2006-12-01   17:46:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: innieway, bluegrass, Zoroaster, BTP Holdings, Jethro Tull, Tauzero, Red Jones, Lady X, noone222, Brian S, christine, Zipporah, robin, Peetie Wheatstraw, HOUNDDAWG, Uncle Bill, Dakmar, tom007, aristeides, scrapper2, lodwick (#9)

There is a big difference between buying gold or silver as a hedge against inflation and setting up a gold based currency. The latter is foolish. Prices are a ratio of the commodity called money to all other goods and commodities for sale. You don't need gold to set the value of a currency. And even on a gold standard the banks are allowed to create checking account money which is the problem that create depressions in the past. There is an alternative to what we have. Currently, the banks are allowed to create our currency, the Federal Reserve Note. If our currency was a Treaury Note, there would be no government debt and no interest on the debt. The recommendations of the man below would save us 759 billion dollars a year. And if we were allowed to audit federal spending, we could save at least another 150 billion dollars a year.

Please take a lok at http://www.monetary.org/

The Truth of 911 Shall Set You Free From The Lie

Horse  posted on  2006-12-01   18:58:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Horse (#11)

If our currency was a Treaury Note, there would be no government debt and no interest on the debt.

http://www.monetary.org/

It's about time someone else steps forward on this. Thanks for the post.

The USG is still the original obligor of the currency. Nothing would change under the new system, except that the banksters would be cut out of the loop.

Me thinks they will fight to keep that from happening.

We need more rope!

"It is the old practice of despots to use a part of the people to keep the rest in order; and those who have once got an ascendency and possessed themselves of all the resources of the nation, their revenues and offices, have immense means for retaining their advantages." Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1798

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-12-01   19:03:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Horse (#11)

You don't need gold to set the value of a currency.

To expand on this, we need to emphasize that to properly set the value of the currency, we need to set the price of raw material production at parity.

That means simply that the farmer, fisherman or miner (and any other raw material producer) will be paid the cost of production plus a living wage.

In the last year or two, the unearned income from interest payments has eclipsed the total earned income of the nation. By this we mean income from sources of production of raw materials or the manufacturing of goods from those raw materials.

This bodes ill for the nation and needs to be reversed. To do this will be very painful since federal subsidies will have to end and we will have to be willing to pay for production. this all will come out in the wash since when the farmer is paid a fair price he will then spend that money back into the economy, what we call a trade turn.

This is typically a four year cycle and in agriculture it relates as a ratio of one in seven. This means that for every dollar a farmer is paid, it creates seven more dollars further along in the economy. For other raw material producers the trade turn is a one in five ratio.

This is all proven out and is in the literature is one cares to look.

http://www.normeconomics.com

    America's balanced economy was struck down in cold blood during 1953. During that year, the United States enjoyed $330 billion of National Income. If raw materials had been fed into the economy at the same relative values that had existed during the 1946-1950 baseline, National Income would have exceeded $355 billion instead of growing to only $330 billion. This income shortage that began in 1953 has now multiplied 1000 fold. It now grows each and every year. In 1997, political pundits on the right and the left claimed victory over national deficits while Americans borrowed $2.16 to produce each $1.00 increase in (GDP), gross domestic product. America continues to borrow prosperity in a futile effort to compensate for a chronic shortage of debt free national income.

    Today the annual shortage of National Income has grown to almost $1.5 trillion, and the accumulated shortage equals America's total public and private debt, proving that massive debt expansion is a public policy gone awry, not an economic necessity. America's accumulated loss of income now totals over $20 trillion. This economic plague has undercut the wage structure and the overall profitability of the American economy. It forces debt-based consumer expenditures. Worst of all, a society burdened by too much debt inevitably stacks up inventories of surplus goods and surplus people.

http://www.normbook.homestead.com/

Also see UNFORGIVEN The American Economic System SOLD for Debt and War
and Raw Material Economics.

"Let us see, from the standpoint of modern knowledge, whether light can be thrown on the difficult and vexed question of the real nature of wealth"... Frederick Soddy, Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt

"It is the old practice of despots to use a part of the people to keep the rest in order; and those who have once got an ascendency and possessed themselves of all the resources of the nation, their revenues and offices, have immense means for retaining their advantages." Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1798

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-12-01   19:22:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: BTP Holdings (#13)

That means simply that the farmer, fisherman or miner (and any other raw material producer) will be paid the cost of production plus a living wage.

Ack!

The free market (un-subsidized, un-regulated) value of the goods or services will provide a "living wage" if you can efficiently produce enough of it...right?

Or no?

"Taxes are not raised to carry on wars, wars are raised to carry on taxes."
-Thomas Paine

Lod  posted on  2006-12-01   20:49:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: lodwick (#14)

The free market (un-subsidized, un-regulated) value of the goods or services will provide a "living wage" if you can efficiently produce enough of it...right?

Or no?

That is the general idea. Inefficiency and mediocrity work hand in glove against this idea. It did work remarkably well from 1943 to 1946 (100% parity, with a cap at 110%) and up until 1953 (90% parity). At that point, Eisenhower's administration was responsible for lowering parity to 60%. It's been downhill ever since.

Of course, the capitalist ideal woreks against this since there is a hang up with production and this results with a glut on the market of certain items.

But with raw materials, the orders keep coming as the money the producer spends into the ecomony makes the rounds in the economic cycle as he orders more equipment for his operation and this in turn creates demand for more raw materials to fill those orders. The money is dispersed among the workers in the manufacturing sector and we see the economic engine humming along.

The one thing which has gotten in the way in agriculture has been what is known as killer agriculture (pesticides and herbicides) and toxic rescue chemistry (chemical fertilizers). These things reduce soil fertility and in turn cause production of non-nutritious pasture (for animals) and other food crops (grains, fruits and veggies).

These things about soil fertility (eco-agriculture is the modern term) have been known since long before WW II, but were displaced by the big money of the petrochemical outfits and synthetic fertilizer industry. And now there is the GMO menace to deal with.

"It is the old practice of despots to use a part of the people to keep the rest in order; and those who have once got an ascendency and possessed themselves of all the resources of the nation, their revenues and offices, have immense means for retaining their advantages." Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1798

BTP Holdings  posted on  2006-12-01   21:50:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: BTP Holdings (#15)

The one thing which has gotten in the way in agriculture has been what is known as killer agriculture (pesticides and herbicides) and toxic rescue chemistry (chemical fertilizers). These things reduce soil fertility and in turn cause production of non-nutritious pasture (for animals) and other food crops (grains, fruits and veggies).

And we wonder why we have the highest cancer rates in the world, as well as heart disease. And now Morgellons is makikng a stir. I'd be surprised if Monsanto wasn't involved with some pharmaceutical company.

Technology is killing us.

No absurdity is so palpable but that it may be firmly planted in the human head if you only begin to inculcate it before age five, by constantly repeating it with an air of great solemnity. - Arthur Schopenhauer

innieway  posted on  2006-12-02   17:09:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: innieway, Jethro Tull (#9)

Remember, history has shown that things can get super ugly in less than a week.

OTOH, people can become accustomed to see practically anything as normal.

As anyone over 40 can attest.

(Which I'm not -- but I got to see white America in syndication.)

Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.

Tauzero  posted on  2006-12-03   0:12:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Tauzero (#17)

OTOH, people can become accustomed to see practically anything as normal.

Yep.

Inflation is normal (at least it has been for quite a while).

HYPERinflation is anything BUT normal. If you had to sell your house to be able to buy groceries, and 2 days later all it will buy is a loaf of bread - that's NOT normal!!! AND you're fucked... When it happens, this country will become a wall-to-wall riot.

No absurdity is so palpable but that it may be firmly planted in the human head if you only begin to inculcate it before age five, by constantly repeating it with an air of great solemnity. - Arthur Schopenhauer

innieway  posted on  2006-12-03   0:22:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: lodwick (#14)

The free market (un-subsidized, un-regulated) value of the goods or services will provide a "living wage" if you can efficiently produce enough of it...right?

Only if, in place of legal regulation, there is self-regulation via morals, ethics, and manners.

Which presupposes a consensus on those standards, which in turn requires a degree of cultural, ethnic, and racial homogeneity which the West has lost.

Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.

Tauzero  posted on  2006-12-03   0:37:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Cynicom, Zoroaster, BTP Holdings, Jethro Tull, Tauzero, Red Jones, Lady X, noone222, Brian S, christine, Zipporah, robin, HOUNDDAWG, Uncle Bill, Dakmar, tom007, aristeides, scrapper2, innieway, lodwick (#0)

I know it's Thanksgiving and all, but this thread's in definite need of a bump.

Happy Thanksgiving to you all. Gratitude is vital to me in these days as it fosters hope, something none of us can live without no matter what we think is coming down.


"Abe Foxman, my good friend and partner." - John Negroponte

Read New History


JiminyC  posted on  2007-11-22   12:15:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: JiminyC (#20)

NORMAN A. THOMPSON (A.M.I.E.E., Research Engineer, Inventor of the Norman Thompson Flying Boat, 1914, and other developments in aviation and in mechanical propulsion; Originator of this appeal)

He sounds like fun.

"The most sinister and anti-social feature about bank-deposit money is that it has no existence. The banks owe the public for a total amount of money which does not exist..."

Bump that.

Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!

robin  posted on  2007-11-22   12:17:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: JiminyC, Zoroaster, BTP Holdings, Jethro Tull, Tauzero, Red Jones, Lady X, noone222, Brian S, christine, Zipporah, robin, HOUNDDAWG, Uncle Bill, Dakmar, tom007, aristeides, scrapper2, innieway, lodwick (#20)

Happy Thanksgiving to you all. Gratitude is vital to me in these days as it fosters hope, something none of us can live without no matter what we think is coming down.

Jiminy..

With friends like you I do not mind being in a leaking lifeboat. We will make it by doing our best.

Cynicom  posted on  2007-11-22   12:20:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Cynicom (#22)

from the Bronze Age:

Today a U-boat might be more practical.

Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!

robin  posted on  2007-11-22   12:33:12 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Cynicom (#22)

We will make it by doing our best.

And even if we don't make it we did our best. If nothing else, some of us on this board have thoroughly exercised our birthright to speak.


"Abe Foxman, my good friend and partner." - John Negroponte

Read New History


JiminyC  posted on  2007-11-22   12:48:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: JiminyC, Cynicom, tom007 (#24)

And even if we don't make it we did our best.

We'll make it. There IS hope!! I'm especially encouraged by the number of youth in this country that are waking up. You can see it in the Ron Paul movement.

BUT, we have to expect things to get worse before they get better... Hope you guys had a great day...

America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. On the road to tyranny, we've gone so far that polite political action is about as useless as a miniskirt in a convent.
Claire Wolfe

The true measure of success is not what you have, but what you can do without.
H. Jackson Brown

innieway  posted on  2007-11-22   21:15:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: bluedogtxn, bluegrass (#4)

For a while wasn't buying gold illegal?

Until a bill sponsored by Jesse Helms in the Senate and Ron Paul in the House was enacted in the 70s.

The U.S. Constitution is no impediment to our form of government.--PJ O'Rourke

DeaconBenjamin  posted on  2007-11-22   21:41:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Horse (#11)

If our currency was a Treaury Note, there would be no government debt and no interest on the debt.

Well, let's see. The first time the US issued Greenbacks was in the Civil War. At the end of the Civil War, the US debt was $2.7 billion.

FDR was the next president to issue significant amounts of Greenbacks/US Notes. The federal debt went from $16.2 billion in 1930 (3 years before his inauguration) to $43.0 billion in 1940, to $260 billion in 1945.

Doesn't seem to have worked historically.

The U.S. Constitution is no impediment to our form of government.--PJ O'Rourke

DeaconBenjamin  posted on  2007-11-22   21:57:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: bluedogtxn (#4)

you can even do it on-line, sometimes cheaper that way

What are your top 2 preferred vendors (if I may ask)?

What North American Union?

Don't wait - send Ron Paul 2008 some FRNs right NOW!

Tea Party '07

Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...

FOH  posted on  2007-11-22   22:20:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: DeaconBenjamin (#27)

Just as a point of interest. FDR sent Treasury plates to Russia and allowed them to print American money for their use.

Cynicom  posted on  2007-11-22   22:32:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Cynicom (#29)

Why am I not surprised. I understand plates were sent to Iran as well.

Also, I am no fan of the Fed.

The U.S. Constitution is no impediment to our form of government.--PJ O'Rourke

DeaconBenjamin  posted on  2007-11-22   23:39:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: JiminyC (#20)

ah, so you're the one who bumped this oldie. btw, i see you pinged BTP Holdings. we've not heard from him in 5+ months. i've also not heard from another close friend in the same amount of time. both of them have had their phones disconnected. i'm really, really worried and i hate not knowing.

christine  posted on  2007-11-22   23:46:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: DeaconBenjamin (#27)

The Gold Standard is a pipe dream. The gold in Fort Knox was stolen long ago. Under Lincoln those Greenbacks did not require that we issue a debt before we printed money as we do under the Federal Reserve syatem. Let the gold standard go. If we went on it, foreigners would drain us of all our gold reserves in less than two months. Russia is about the only country that could go onto a gold standard. The best we can hope for now is a paper money non-interest bearing currency called a Treasury Note.

The Truth of 911 Shall Set You Free From The Lie

Horse  posted on  2007-11-23   2:03:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Horse (#32)

What is a dollar?

The U.S. Constitution is no impediment to our form of government.--PJ O'Rourke

DeaconBenjamin  posted on  2007-11-23   7:01:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: christine (#31)

i hate not knowing.

You're a good mama duck. I've been MIA before and turned up again. : )


"Abe Foxman, my good friend and partner." - John Negroponte

Read New History


JiminyC  posted on  2007-11-23   8:51:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: JiminyC (#34)

You're a good mama duck. I've been MIA before and turned up again. : )

The bad penny theory????? hehehehehe

Cynicom  posted on  2007-11-23   8:53:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Cynicom (#35)

C'mon. Make me worth at least two bits. : )


"Abe Foxman, my good friend and partner." - John Negroponte

Read New History


JiminyC  posted on  2007-11-23   8:55:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Horse, christine, robin, Zipporah, Tauzero, Cynicom, Lady X, Ridinshotgun (#32)

Let the gold standard go.

This is the one issue I don't like about Ron Paul and the one I disagree with him on the most. Recall this part of the above letter:

"All forms of government, whether conservative, liberal or labour, fascist, socialist or communist, fall alike under the control of a political Power Group, which is ultimately, and in large measure unwittingly, dominated by the Money Creators and Manipulators."

Goldbugs are more unwitting than most.


"Abe Foxman, my good friend and partner." - John Negroponte

Read New History


JiminyC  posted on  2007-11-23   8:57:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: JiminyC (#37)

To me a gold backed currency has always been impractical.

However not being an expert or even knowledgeable about the world monetary system, such matters dull my little brain.

Cynicom  posted on  2007-11-23   9:03:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Cynicom (#38)

A gold standard in America would impoverish all of us.


"Abe Foxman, my good friend and partner." - John Negroponte

Read New History


JiminyC  posted on  2007-11-23   9:06:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: JiminyC (#39)

A gold standard in America would impoverish all of us.

Well, I wont have far to fall.

Cynicom  posted on  2007-11-23   9:10:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Cynicom (#40)

Me neither. But I do like to eat every day.


"Abe Foxman, my good friend and partner." - John Negroponte

Read New History


JiminyC  posted on  2007-11-23   9:13:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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