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Title: Depleted U - An impromptu interview w/ a Career Tank Specialist
Source: me
URL Source: http://none.com
Published: Apr 27, 2005
Author: Tom007
Post Date: 2005-04-27 22:07:28 by tom007
Keywords: Specialist, impromptu, interview
Views: 1992
Comments: 488

Had an intesting conversation with a man I have known for about 5 months. He delivers to my store, handles alot of cash and is a "straight up" kind of guy. I like him, and I am sure his employer does as well. A steady Eddie man, the kind that makes the country run.

We somehow got talking about the ME, and he mentioned he had been to Egypt, and really did not care for any of it. I asked him how it was that he found himself in the ME and he said he was in the service of the military.

Naturally I wanted to know in what type of service he was in. Well, he was drafted into 'Nam, and did twentyfour years, and tanks were his thing. He started out in a tank designation I did not know of. I know a little about M1A1' and wanted to know some things about them, and the man was very evidently the real deal, no swagger, no he man stories etc. He is who he claims.

After some talk of tactics, guns, how to disable an M1A1, exploding armor, all of which he had the knolwedge of a solider who had spent many years with this type of equipment. He was pretty high up in the system.

Then I asked him about DU. Well turns out he was one of the men on the ground testing it at Aburdeen Proving grounds, shooting various things, like mounds of earth, then digging into it to estimate the ballistics, etc.

Did this many time, and my friend related that one time a DU projectile fragmented into the mound of earth. They were to go dig all the pieces of the remenents out. As he tells me, there was a hole that one of the fragments had made, and as they were poking around, a field mouse was scared up and scampered into that hole made by a fragment.

He just sat back and waited for it to come out-; it didn't. After a few minutes, he saw that it was dead.

He went and got the General of the testing operation, and showed him what he had discovered. The General and his men looked at the situation and told all the testers to go away. For three weeks the site was closed, except to the investigators.

Three weeks later, the investigation was complete. The report said the mouse died of "starvation". My friend looked at me, eye to eye, and laughed. "That mouse damn sure didn't die of starvation", he said emphatically.

He said when the DU rounds hit a tank, he could "see a mushroom cloud", formed (Note, alot of high intensity heat will form a mushroom cloud event).

He said "if you take a giger counter into one of the tanks with DU munitions it will beep like crazy". He said that the explosiom of a DU round into steel was" basically a miniature explosion of a nuclear bomb".

He said they would put goats in the test tanks, and around them. He stated that " for twentyfive meters around the tank, hit by a DU round, all the goats would be dead, ten meters, mangled, turned inside out".

He believed DU dust to be alot more dangerous than the military was allowing.

This man is much more creadible, to me, much more, than the talking hairdoo's reading spin points from the Pentagon.

Draw your own conclusions, this is what I heard today, from a man with incontrovertable creadibility with me. He was there.

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#448. To: Zipporah (#445)

Yep.. safe to assume that.. if anyone wants to contribute here.. great.. fine ..no problem but when they start calling everyone here nuts.. and say that they're here to watch a 'train wreck' hey fine ..let them 'watch'.. since that is what they want..hey I'll be glad to cooperate.. :P

I still say you are a sweety....

timetobuildaboat  posted on  2005-04-30   22:00:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#449. To: All (#448)

Then again it could be alcohol induced..... Naaahh!

timetobuildaboat  posted on  2005-04-30   22:01:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#450. To: timetobuildaboat (#448)

I still say you are a sweety....

Hey it was out strictly out of kindness.. ;P

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-30   22:02:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#451. To: Aric2000 (#431)

Dr. Rokke has MUCH money to be made if he can convince enough people that INDEED, DU is dangerous. LOADS of it, because the US government will get blamed, will be sued, and some stupid idiots on a Jury will declare them guilty and a massive amount of money will be awarded, and guess who will get a piece of that action?

The doctor that made it ALL possible.

So to say that your "expert" is some lily white, neutral man with a professional opinion, tells me that you are blind to such things as long as it matches your prejudices.

What a load of bullshit!

You should have enough sense to know that only pettifogger shyster attorneys and BAR lawyers benefit from others' iniquities and troubles. They are the lowest form of life on the Earth.

BTP Holdings  posted on  2005-04-30   22:05:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#452. To: Zipporah (#450)

His comments smacked of government cohort... or am I just off base considering my inebriated state?

timetobuildaboat  posted on  2005-04-30   22:06:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#453. To: BTP Holdings (#451)

Aric2000 has followed Kyle into the great beyond. He can't answer you.

crack monkey  posted on  2005-04-30   22:08:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#454. To: BTP Holdings (#451)

What a load of bullshit!

Just a word of advice....

Don't beat around the bush.

Tell him what you really think.

timetobuildaboat  posted on  2005-04-30   22:08:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#455. To: timetobuildaboat (#452)

His comments smacked of government cohort... or am I just off base considering my inebriated state?

Hmm well not sure about that.. it may be your inebriated state.. I think it could be better catagorized as your basic marching moron.. :P

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-30   22:08:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#456. To: crack monkey (#453)

Aric2000 has followed Kyle into the great beyond. He can't answer you.

Being a free-um we may need to tolerate the likes of Aric2000 to "walk the talk" but Oh well! Who am I to inject policy in my pickled state of mind.

timetobuildaboat  posted on  2005-04-30   22:12:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#457. To: crack monkey (#453)

He can't answer you.

So I found out.

BTP Holdings  posted on  2005-04-30   22:12:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#458. To: timetobuildaboat (#452)

or am I just off base considering my inebriated state?

Oh, that explains your fiendishness tonight. LOL

BTP Holdings  posted on  2005-04-30   22:14:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#459. To: Zipporah (#455)

Marching lockstep? yes.... I see it now....

timetobuildaboat  posted on  2005-04-30   22:14:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#460. To: timetobuildaboat (#456)

Being a free-um we may need to tolerate the likes of Aric2000 to "walk the talk" but Oh well! Who am I to inject policy in my pickled state of mind

I don't think he got pronged for his views. It was more the way he was presenting them.

crack monkey  posted on  2005-04-30   22:15:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#461. To: All (#456)

Being a free-um we may need to tolerate the likes of Aric2000 to "walk the talk" but Oh well! Who am I to inject policy in my pickled state of mind.

free-um?

What the hell! Is this guy drunk, and do you tolerate this on your site? If so I will go somewhere else to vent my dislike for the status quo.

timetobuildaboat  posted on  2005-04-30   22:16:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#462. To: crack monkey (#460)

I don't think he got pronged for his views. It was more the way he was presenting them.

Attacking others personally is a sign of serious insecurity in the humble and drunk oppinion of this poster.

I hate to say it but... Good God Craig Chaquico's midnightnoon is absolutely brilliant. Needless to say it is playing right now with Third Force's Richard Elliott on sax.

timetobuildaboat  posted on  2005-04-30   22:22:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#463. To: Zipporah (#455)

You really are a sweet thing and I hop your husband does'nt know where I live.

timetobuildaboat  posted on  2005-04-30   22:24:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#464. To: All (#463)

hop = hope

timetobuildaboat  posted on  2005-04-30   22:24:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#465. To: All (#464)

Not bad just 30 seconds to a correction!!!

timetobuildaboat  posted on  2005-04-30   22:25:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#466. To: Zipporah (#416)

I'm working on this, I'm not ignoring it! Follow up soon...

Axenolith  posted on  2005-05-01   2:33:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#467. To: Zipporah (#438)

Cya Aric..

(Harrrrumphh)

Aric and Kyle,

A real steaming pile,

Hung out and spewed on the 4um a while.

Zipporah got pissed,

When the two smirked and dissed,

And booted their asses in style.

crack monkey  posted on  2005-05-01   9:39:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#468. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#418)

That statement is an OUTRAGE. I am SICK AS HELL of hearing Bushistas telling the rest of us that we "hate Americans" or are "blood dancers". It is so obvious that those who are against the war are against it because we DON'T want to see Americans (and others) die. This is typical Bush-speak: black is white, up is down, patriots are traitors, conservatives are liberals, war is peace, freedom is slavery.

Bush supporters are the true anti-Americans!!

I just saw this post, halfwitt. It's awesome.

christine  posted on  2005-05-01   19:26:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#469. To: crack monkey (#467)

Zipporah got pissed,

correction: Christine and Zipporah got pissed ;)

christine  posted on  2005-05-01   19:27:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#470. To: Zipporah (#416)

Thanks..for the explanation, particularly from someone who is a scientist and is not in the industry and doesn't have some self serving interest.

What's kind of ironic is that I started out in the environmental industry somewhat on the "save the earth" camp. After a while I came to realize that, in the US in particular, the regulatory environment has evolved to the point where even without further rule making or "tweaking", the improvements will continue merely due to the fact that obsolescence and efficiency are doing the heavy lifting. Most new rules or regulations are, IMHO, solely to ass rape anybody who isn't either bureaucratically connected or able to afford in house legal revue.

Now according to this study re Desert Storm "350 metric tons of DU were used in Operation Desert Storm as armor-penetrating ammunition with an estimated amount of 3-6 million grams of DU released into the atmosphere"..

Stepping aside from the DU debate itself for a minute, the way this is worded automatically started the numeric shenanigans meter. Why use the 3-6 million grams released to air as a figure when they already started with metric tons? (1 metric ton = ~1.10 short tons, a "short" ton being the 2000 pound kind). Generally it would be because 3-6 million grams carries far more dramatic weight than saying 3-6 metric tons released to air. When I see that number, and I look at it versus the releases of other common atmospheric pollutants (metals included), I'm starting to get the "Ho Hum" because when you start extrapolating that amount over any significant surface area, you quickly start to see that the resultant concentrations are going to go asymptotically small.

We'll take the largest figure in any instance, to give the benefit of the doubt. We'll keep figures to metric (that's how I always get lab results, but if you want conversions I'll put a neat converter utility on my web space for a while that people can DL).

Assumptions:
1) The soil in the area in question is predominantly sand and fine silty sands. We'll assign an unconsolidated weight for this soil of 70lbs per cubic foot (on the conservative side) or 1121kg per cubic meter.
2) For the sake of exercise, we'll assume our aerosolized DU was released along stretches of the "Highway of Death" road (So I can gander shots of the road and get lane widths and the general look of the surrounding area).
3) I'm going to limit the dispersal to 45.72 meters (150 feet) of soil surface with the inferred pavement area (impermiable) taken out, both sides of road (half each side) for 1 kilometer (1000 meters).

Given the maximum airborne release, distributed within the top 15.24 cm (6 inches) of soil in our area (1000m x 45.72 meters), we would get 769 parts per million (ppm) DU in soil (6 million grams over nearly 8 billion grams of soil).

Now, there's a lot of stuff that starts raising flags at 100's of ppm, but for perspective, Lead is considered hazardous at 1000 ppm total lead and 5 ppm soluble. The thing is though, we've seriously narrowed our possible contamination area. If we head towards more realistic areas of dispersal and length of highway, we quickly are into quantities of mass and area that make contamination by 6 metric tons of material essentially meaningless.

If we go to a 1 square kilometer area, we drop to 35ppm, 10 square kilometers, 0.35ppm (or 350 parts per billion (ppb)).

Now, the TWA (Time Weighted Average, 8 hour) for exposure to Uranium metal (the NIOSH gives it as such, but if it's for un-depleted, then it's worse anyway) is 0.2 mg/m3 (This means that it's safe to work in levels of the substance in air up to this value for 8 hour periods and that's the California limit which is stricter than Federal). To achieve this quantity in air starting from soil with 769ppm in it you would need to mobilize 0.26g/m3, and while that's small looking number wise, you're talking approaching "can't see hand in front of face" dust levels for that and we're at the highest, most conservative, smallest area, of our calculation.

In any instance where I was unsure here I fudged toward giving DU the advantage in mass, concentration, and area. After having actually worked through this and seeing what comes out, there has to be some other cause, or combination of causes for the effects mentioned. Even if we assume an order of magnitude greater release of airborne (60 metric tons as opposed to 6) contaminant, in order to maintain an even remotely reasonable exposure level, the material has to be limited to an approximately 10 square kilometer area, and every person who is claimed to be affected by it has to have spent a LONG period of time in that particular area AND it had to be insanely dusty during their entire exposure time.

I realize that at the conclusion of running through this, the arguement for DU as a significant cause of war related maladies is effectively destroyed by the quantities given within the paper. There may be specific instances where succeptible people have been severely affected by heavy exposure to inordinantly high concentrations caused by being around direct hit areas, or burning vehicles but the numbers cited as sickened in claims are just not physically possible at the release level and area.

That said, if there are really large numbers of Veterans and or Iraqi's who are exhibiting large numbers and types of severe maladies outside of the statistical norm then I would highly suspect that this debate (in general, not amongst the folks here) is a red herring to throw people off the trail of something a LOT worse than DU.

Axenolith  posted on  2005-05-01   22:08:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#471. To: All (#470)

P.S. The handy unit converter is

HERE

Hollar if it's not DLing right, I'll leave it up for a few days...

Axenolith  posted on  2005-05-01   22:11:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#472. To: Zipporah (#416)

“There have been 650 cases in total since August 2003 reported in government hospitals - that is a 20 percent increase from the previous regime. Private hospitals were not included in the study, so the number could be higher,” Ali warned."

BTW, I'd far sooner consider VOCs (Volatile Organic Compounds and PNAs (Poly Nuclear Aromatics) generated from all of the uncontrolled petroleum and other items burning for that increase. I'd like to see if they [defect numbers] rose, dropped and rose again from GWI to post GWII.

Axenolith  posted on  2005-05-01   22:17:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#473. To: Axenolith (#471)

Thanks, that is handy.

robin  posted on  2005-05-01   22:21:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#474. To: Axenolith (#470)

or burning vehicles but the numbers cited as sickened in claims are just not physically possible at the release level and area.

That said, if there are really large numbers of Veterans and or Iraqi's who are exhibiting large numbers and types of severe maladies outside of the statistical norm then I would highly suspect that this debate (in general, not amongst the folks here) is a red herring to throw people off the trail of something a LOT worse than DU.

Impressive work, Axe, and intresting as well.

I'm beginning to suspecting the dreaded "combination of experimential vaccines, insect parasites, suspended HC, plastics and other vaporized materials unknown" as being a likely culprit-; and much harder to quantify.

Thanks for your reasoned approach.

tom007  posted on  2005-05-01   22:26:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#475. To: Axenolith (#470)

I realize that at the conclusion of running through this, the arguement for DU as a significant cause of war related maladies is effectively destroyed by the quantities given within the paper. There may be specific instances where succeptible people have been severely affected by heavy exposure to inordinantly high concentrations caused by being around direct hit areas, or burning vehicles but the numbers cited as sickened in claims are just not physically possible at the release level and area.

That said, if there are really large numbers of Veterans and or Iraqi's who are exhibiting large numbers and types of severe maladies outside of the statistical norm then I would highly suspect that this debate (in general, not amongst the folks here) is a red herring to throw people off the trail of something a LOT worse than DU.

Hmm.. interesting.. food for thought. Considering that there are according to the studies.. the maladies seen are very much outside the statistical norm and you are saying that the effect apparently is not from DU.. I wonder what other substance could be being used that could be the cause? Thanks for your time, I appreciate the explanation.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-01   22:37:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#476. To: Axenolith (#472)

BTW, I'd far sooner consider VOCs (Volatile Organic Compounds and PNAs (Poly Nuclear Aromatics) generated from all of the uncontrolled petroleum and other items burning for that increase. I'd like to see if they [defect numbers] rose, dropped and rose again from GWI to post GWII.

I'll see if I can find any data .. thanks again.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-01   22:38:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#477. To: Axenolith (#471)

P.S. The handy unit converter

Hmmmm.... any chance of adding a furlongs per fortnight conversion to the Speed tab? I find I'm frequently needing to express the acceleration of disk drive stepper motors in furlongs/fortnight2 :-/

Starwind  posted on  2005-05-02   1:41:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#478. To: Starwind (#477)

Square root of negitive two, usually works on these sorts of problems.

tom007  posted on  2005-05-02   1:42:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#479. To: tom007 (#478)

Square root of negitive two, usually works on these sorts of problems.

Or so you imagine.

Starwind  posted on  2005-05-02   1:45:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#480. To: Starwind (#479)

Yep, usually works, as you can imagine.

tom007  posted on  2005-05-02   1:55:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#481. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#308)

the effects of radon for us - considering you're such an expert on the effects of radioactivity, heavy metals and their effect on the human body.

Do you have any good links on this? I recently had my house tested for radon and the results came back at 4.0 pCi/l.

justlurking  posted on  2005-05-02   6:31:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#482. To: justlurking (#481)

Do you have any good links on this?

This one has some good information. There's tons of others to be found on Google. Fortunately, radon is fairly easy to remediate in most homes - especially if you have a crawl space.

Mr Nuke Buzzcut  posted on  2005-05-02   10:18:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#483. To: christine (#468)

Thanks, christine! Hey, wait'll you see the great quote I have from a certain bot, from 2 years ago (the first fall of Baghdad):

200. To: SKYDRIFTER (#198)

(Skydrifter:)When people such as Arator, Malador, Christine, Palo, et al get put down for their Constitutional stand

(Butteye:)They get "put down" as you call it, for being intellectually dishonest, or for "bird talking" the latest liberal "talking points memo"...or for just not having the strength of their own convictions, IMHO.

Basically, when challenged, they run and hide. Note the dead silence from them in the wake of Baghdad falling. It was very obvious to all.

And thats why they are the minority viewpoint in this country.

Badeye posted on 2003-04-15 10:23:16 ET Reply Trace

For full context, see the thread on "Two Years Later, Mission Still Not Accomplished".

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-05-02   16:05:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#484. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#482)

Radon is a natural gas that comes out of the ground. The way you deal with it is you open the window, it goes out when you do that. You have to perform this procedure maybe once a year to keep the radon levels low enough to be completely safe.

Very rarely is there a piece of land that produces a lot of radon. For those places you rig a system where the gas can go into pipes from below the slab and it goes up through the roof and is released.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-05-02   16:11:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#485. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#482)

radon is fairly easy to remediate in most homes - especially if you have a crawl space.

Thanks for the link. I usually do google, but I have no idea regarding radon what is good advise and what is not. I'll check out your link. I have a log house, the first floor is completely underground (this is also where the test took place). It's also where the master bedroom is and the den where the computer is, so it's where I spend a majority of my time.

justlurking  posted on  2005-05-02   19:01:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#486. To: justlurking (#485)

You will probably find that the best solution will be good ventilation.

Mr Nuke Buzzcut  posted on  2005-05-02   21:56:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#487. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#486)

That's what I read from your site (very good one too). There is only one door that comes in from the outside down here, no windows at all since this floor is underground. I am thinking now of adding a screen door on and letting it ventilate that way. Just not sure if it will be enough. But the wind does come in from that direction most of the time, so it might be.

Thanks again for the site.

justlurking  posted on  2005-05-02   22:02:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#488. To: justlurking (#487)

I suspect there are some good monitors available. It might be worth checking them out to see if they're cost effective. At least that way you will know how long it takes for it to build up and how often to air the place out.

Mr Nuke Buzzcut  posted on  2005-05-02   23:08:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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