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Title: Depleted U - An impromptu interview w/ a Career Tank Specialist
Source: me
URL Source: http://none.com
Published: Apr 27, 2005
Author: Tom007
Post Date: 2005-04-27 22:07:28 by tom007
Keywords: Specialist, impromptu, interview
Views: 2991
Comments: 488

Had an intesting conversation with a man I have known for about 5 months. He delivers to my store, handles alot of cash and is a "straight up" kind of guy. I like him, and I am sure his employer does as well. A steady Eddie man, the kind that makes the country run.

We somehow got talking about the ME, and he mentioned he had been to Egypt, and really did not care for any of it. I asked him how it was that he found himself in the ME and he said he was in the service of the military.

Naturally I wanted to know in what type of service he was in. Well, he was drafted into 'Nam, and did twentyfour years, and tanks were his thing. He started out in a tank designation I did not know of. I know a little about M1A1' and wanted to know some things about them, and the man was very evidently the real deal, no swagger, no he man stories etc. He is who he claims.

After some talk of tactics, guns, how to disable an M1A1, exploding armor, all of which he had the knolwedge of a solider who had spent many years with this type of equipment. He was pretty high up in the system.

Then I asked him about DU. Well turns out he was one of the men on the ground testing it at Aburdeen Proving grounds, shooting various things, like mounds of earth, then digging into it to estimate the ballistics, etc.

Did this many time, and my friend related that one time a DU projectile fragmented into the mound of earth. They were to go dig all the pieces of the remenents out. As he tells me, there was a hole that one of the fragments had made, and as they were poking around, a field mouse was scared up and scampered into that hole made by a fragment.

He just sat back and waited for it to come out-; it didn't. After a few minutes, he saw that it was dead.

He went and got the General of the testing operation, and showed him what he had discovered. The General and his men looked at the situation and told all the testers to go away. For three weeks the site was closed, except to the investigators.

Three weeks later, the investigation was complete. The report said the mouse died of "starvation". My friend looked at me, eye to eye, and laughed. "That mouse damn sure didn't die of starvation", he said emphatically.

He said when the DU rounds hit a tank, he could "see a mushroom cloud", formed (Note, alot of high intensity heat will form a mushroom cloud event).

He said "if you take a giger counter into one of the tanks with DU munitions it will beep like crazy". He said that the explosiom of a DU round into steel was" basically a miniature explosion of a nuclear bomb".

He said they would put goats in the test tanks, and around them. He stated that " for twentyfive meters around the tank, hit by a DU round, all the goats would be dead, ten meters, mangled, turned inside out".

He believed DU dust to be alot more dangerous than the military was allowing.

This man is much more creadible, to me, much more, than the talking hairdoo's reading spin points from the Pentagon.

Draw your own conclusions, this is what I heard today, from a man with incontrovertable creadibility with me. He was there.

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#40. To: Kyle, robin (#39)

Apparently not.

Nor did you address any of the facts that robin posted ..so lets see you address those.. then I'll address those..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-28   12:58:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Esso (#38)

i don't know what's going on either, but i can guess. it's spelled s-h-i-l-l.

christine  posted on  2005-04-28   13:02:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Kyle (#37)

http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jdw/dutoxic010112_1_n.shtml

A short review of depleted uranium toxicity

I asked if you could give us a basis for your childish, over the top opinion that wasn't based on some propaganda journal like Newsmax or Janes or somebody else who works hand in glove with the international weapons cartel.

In response, you cite Janes, the journal of the international weapons cartel.

YOU ARE FULL OF BULLSHIT.

Give us a source.

Try again.

crack monkey  posted on  2005-04-28   13:02:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Kyle (#37)

Suck on this:

OK.

So the people who make millions manufacturing and selling DU think it's great stuff.

Do you have a source that doesn't make us laugh at you? Or is Janes the best you can do?

crack monkey  posted on  2005-04-28   13:04:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Zipporah, robin (#40)

Nor did you address any of the facts that robin posted ..so lets see you address those.. then I'll address those..

2 words: LEUREN MORET

That is the ultimate source for most of it. Besides Moret's OBVIOUS conspiracy theorist biases that are revealed in Robin's posts, you might be interested to know that Moret claims that DU will wipe out all life on the planet. Moret has zero credibilty. Zero.

Kyle  posted on  2005-04-28   13:10:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Axenolith, AdamSelene (#37)

Chemist/Physicist ping.....review and feedback requested?

Starwind  posted on  2005-04-28   13:13:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Aric2000 (#10)

SO, if you are going to freak out about DU, then you had better freak out about lead as well, otherwise, forget about it.....

That's like comparing coffee to heroin.

Get real.

The problem is that the effects of DU have been propagandized - not revealed.


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2005-04-28   13:14:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Kyle (#35)

...and the majority of the radioactivity remains in the DU after this process is done.

Unadulterated BS. It is virtually all removed, because virtually all of the U235 is removed. U238 has a half-life in billions of years.

I heard a discussion of this on the radio. There was 1 fellow representing peole who'd studied this. Another fellow was a worker at Livermore Labs who actually made the bomb making material from what is DU after this process is done. They both agreed that about 85% of the radioactivity remains in the DU after the rest is extracted.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-04-28   13:14:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Kyle (#44)

You havent addressed Dr. Rokke's position on DU nor why the UN called for a ban:

Also in 1999, a United Nations subcommission considered DU hazardous enough to call for an initiative banning its use worldwide. The initiative has remained in committee, blocked primarily by the United States, according to Karen Parker, a lawyer with the International Educational Development/Humanitarian Law Project, which has consultative status at the United Nations.

And if DU is not harmful, then explain the high radioactive levels on the Highway of Death:

"DU shell holes in the vehicles along the Highway of Death are 1,000 times more radioactive than background radiation, according to Geiger counter readings done for the Seattle Post-Intelligencer by Dr. Khajak Vartaanian, a nuclear medicine expert from the Iraq Department of Radiation Protection in Basra, and Col. Amal Kassim of the Iraqi navy.

The desert around the vehicles was 100 times more radioactive than background radiation; Basra, a city of 1 million people, some 125 miles away, registered only slightly above background radiation level.

But the radioactivity is only one concern about DU munitions.

A second, potentially more serious hazard is created when a DU round hits its target. As much as 70 percent of the projectile can burn up on impact, creating a firestorm of ceramic DU oxide particles. The residue of this firestorm is an extremely fine ceramic uranium dust that can be spread by the wind, inhaled and absorbed into the human body and absorbed by plants and animals, becoming part of the food chain."

And the research and links from the National Gulf War Resource Center, Inc.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-28   13:21:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Kyle (#16)

It's not necessarily about radiation, dip-shit! It's about metabolizing the ingested material. Similar to the ingestion of minute quantities of Cyanide.

Who are you to question an MD? I thought you lived & breathed for authority?


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2005-04-28   13:22:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: christine (#41)

i don't know what's going on either, but i can guess. it's spelled s-h-i-l-l.

Looking at the support Kyle offers for his arguments, my guess is that Kyle's primary purpose here is to punish people who dare voice opinions that diverge from the RNC party line.

Sort of an FR enforcer on loan from FR.

I think if you could pin him down on his political position he would claim to be an "independent" who often criticises Bush.

If you looked a little harder you would find that he has never cast a non-RNC vote in his life and that his "critique" of Bush consists of an unvoiced objection to a few aspects of Bush's immigration policy.

I don't think you'll ever see him present a useful or well supported piece of knowledge on the forum.

I do think you'll see him use intimidation tactics to keep others from voicing opinions that don't conform to the bot orthodoxy.

crack monkey  posted on  2005-04-28   13:28:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: crack monkey (#43)

So the people who make millions manufacturing and selling DU think it's great stuff.

LOL.. 'the love of money is the root of all evil'.. is apripos here..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-28   13:30:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: SKYDRIFTER (#49)

It's not necessarily about radiation, dip-shit! It's about metabolizing the ingested material. Similar to the ingestion of minute quantities of Cyanide.

This is true. I was told in chemestry class that all heavy metals are poisonous in a similar manner. Mercury, lead, etc. The explanation I heard is that we have no good mechanism for cleaning them from our system and that they destroy emzines necessary for life. Constant low level exposure to anything from that region of the periodic table builds up in our systems and is eventually toxic.

crack monkey  posted on  2005-04-28   13:32:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Kyle (#35)

    ...and the majority of the radioactivity remains in the DU after this process is done.

Unadulterated BS. It is virtually all removed, because virtually all of the U235 is removed. U238 has a half-life in billions of years.

Kyle,

You dumb-shit! U-238 is a variant of U-235 - and radioactive! What does the term "Half-life" tell you about U-238? You can't even comprehend what you write!

You may as well argue that U-239 isn't radioactive! Jesus jumpin'-up-Christ. How stupid do you want to portray yourself as?

I keep telling you how freakin' stupid you are, but you just won't listen!


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2005-04-28   13:36:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: crack monkey (#52)

The problem is that if the DU is as dangerous as I fear it is; there are going to be about 150,000 GIs waiting to die a horrible death; with the rest living in terror of delayed symptoms.

That with Bush cutting the VA benefits.


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2005-04-28   13:38:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: SKYDRIFTER (#54)

with the rest living in terror of delayed symptoms

This is what you get with lead and mercury and some of the more exotic heavy metals.

Another problem is that the symptoms arn't well quantified for anything except lead and mercury. Here the variation in symptoms are understood because large numbers of people have been exposed and studied over long periods of time.

With DU, some of the effects might not even be recognized yet. The stuff has only been used for a very short time. For all we know it could be similar to asbestos - everyone gets sick after a certain minimum exposure, but sometimes the symptoms take 20 years to appear.

I think this danger to our troops and to the population should be balanced against the fact that we really don't need the stuff in Iraq. I recall the Uranium shells and sabots being developed for long range tank battles with the Russians. Nothing like that is taking place in Iraq. I would like to know what the uranium shells accomplish that can't be accomplished with normal ammo?

crack monkey  posted on  2005-04-28   13:46:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: SKYDRIFTER (#54)

The most serious problem IMO is that it's "genotoxic"..chemically altering DNA, switching on genes that would otherwise not be expressed. Also Alexandria Miller (radiobiologist with the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute in Bethesda, Maryland):

"Miller has found one way this may happen. She has discovered the first direct evidence that radiation from DU damages chromosomes within cultured cells. The chromosomes break, and the fragments reform in a way that results in abnormal joins (Military Medicine, vol 167, p 120). Both the breaks and the joins are commonly found in tumour cells."

More crucially, she has recently found that DU radiation increases gene activity in cultured cells at doses of DU not known to cause chemical toxicity (Molecular and Cellular Biochemistry, in press). The possible consequences are made all the more uncertain because no one knows if genes switched on by DU radiation enhance the damage caused by genes switched on by DU's toxic effects, or vice versa. "I think that we assumed that we knew everything that we needed to know about uranium," says Miller. "This is something we have to consider now when we think about risk estimates."

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-28   13:54:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: crack monkey (#55)

Oh and btw they're looking at replacing DU shells with an alternative.. sounds like a great idea?? uh huh..

'Safe' alternative to uranium shells

CONTROVERSIAL anti-tank shells tipped with depleted uranium may be phased out if an alternative material proves its worth. The US Army is expected to award a contract this week for the manufacture of prototype ammunition incorporating a "liquid metal" alloy. The new rounds could be in service within two years.

Campaigners have complained for years about the potential health effects of DU - it has been linked to everything from Gulf War syndrome to birth defects. But the health connection is disputed and the military defends its use of DU. All the same, the US Army's Tank-automotive and Armaments Command is looking for alternatives in case political pressures force it to abandon DU.

DU has been the material of choice for anti-tank ammunition since the 1970s because it has twice the density of lead. And it has two key advantages over pure tungsten, which has a similar density. Tungsten shells ...

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-28   13:55:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: crack monkey (#42)

YOU ARE FULL OF BULLSHIT.

Give us a source.

Try again.

Are you saying that the "Handbook of the Toxicology of Metals", is part of the CONSPIRACY, too?

How abou these?:

http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q611.html

Health Physics Society

Specialists in Radiation Safety

Answer to Question #611 Submitted to "Ask the Experts"

Category: Radiation Effects — Effects by Radionuclides

The following question was answered by an expert in the appropriate field:

Q: I'm an environmental reporter in Portugal and I'm writing an article on the possible health effects both from radiation and chemical toxicity of depleted uranium. Which one is the most problematic danger? Why?

A: Recently, there has been much concern expressed in the media and among the general public with respect to the hazardous nature of depleted uranium, including allegations of leukemias, cancers, and other deaths caused by this material. While it is in fact true that depleted uranium is weakly radioactive, it is also a heavy metal and, except in certain very unusual situations, it is the chemical toxicity and not the radioactivity that is of concern. And, from a chemical toxicity standpoint, uranium is on the same order of toxicity as lead. Largely from work with animals, along with a few instances in which humans inhaled very large amounts of uranium, the chemical toxicity of uranium is known to produce minor effects on the kidney, which in humans who have suffered large acute exposures have been transitory and wholly reversible. Because depleted and natural uranium are only weakly radioactive, radiological effects from ingested or inhaled uranium have not been detected.

Human experience with uranium has spanned more than 200 years. In the early part of the 20th century, uranium was used therapeutically as a treatment for diabetes, and persons so treated were administered relatively large amounts of uranium by mouth. Tens of thousands of persons have worked in the uranium industry over the past several decades and have been followed up and studied extensively, as have populations in Canada and elsewhere who have high levels of uranium in their drinking water. The types of illness apparently suffered by those exposed to depleted uranium from weapons have never been observed in these groups. This is not surprising as the radiation dose from uranium is far overshadowed by its potential chemical toxicity, and intakes of uranium of sufficient magnitude to produce chemotoxic effects are unlikely in and of themselves. That notwithstanding, any such effects from ingestion or inhalation of uranium would likely manifest themselves first in the form of minor effects associated with the kidneys. That military personnel and others who may have had contact with depleted uranium from munitions are suffering from various illnesses is not in dispute. That their illnesses are attributable to their exposure to uranium is very, very unlikely. A truly enormous body of scientific data shows that it is virtually impossible for uranium to be the cause of their illnesses.

Health physicists are deeply concerned with the public health and welfare and, as experts in radiation and its effects on people and the environment, are quite aware that something other than exposure to uranium is the cause of the illnesses suffered by those who have had contact with depleted uranium from munitions. If we are to offer any measure of relief or solace to suffering people, and to gain some important additional knowledge in the process, we should not squander our valuable and limited energies, resources and time, traveling down a road that has already been well traveled and which has already shown us that uranium, either by itself or in combination with other materials, is almost certainly not the culprit. Rather we should put politics and political correctness, personal agendas, media coverage, and posturing aside and instead focus on scientifically determining what is in fact the cause of these illnesses. This would provide a true benefit to mankind; pointing accusing fingers at depleted uranium in the face of scientific evidence to the contrary is clearly wrong and counterproductive.

Ronald L. Kathren Professor Emeritus Washington State University Past President, Health Physics Society Past President, American Academy of Health Physics

There are several articles at:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3912/is_200403/ai_n9397845

Another:

http://www.pdhealth.mil/downloads/Chem-Rad-DU.pdf

Conclusions

Despite nearly 50 years of accrued information on the health effects of natural uranium, concern still exists regarding its potential hazard as a radiotoxicant.13.26 Reports linking DU to the Gulf War syndrome and leukemia in Balkans peacekeeping forces have been widely disseminated in the lay press. Although in vitro and rodent data suggest the potential for uraniuminduced carcinogenesis, cohort studies assessing the health effects of natural and DU have failed to validate these findings in humans.20,24.30.33-36 Recent reports have explicitly stated the lack of an association between DU and malignancy.8-11 Even the Royal Society report, which suggested a small link between DU, stated that "except in extreme circumstances any extra risks of developing fatal cancers as a result of radiation from internal exposure to DU arising from battlefield conditions are likely to be so small that they would not be detectable above the general risk of dying from cancer over a normal lifetime."12 Whereas much of the fear surrounding DU has focused upon its radiation properties, its principal toxicological effects stem from its properties as a heavy metal.8.11 Studies with natural uranium have demonstrated dose-dependent nephrotoxicity.29 However, both animal studies and a continuing cohort study performed by the U.S. Army Department of Veterans Affairs has documented normal renal function despite markedly elevated urinary uranium excretion.24.30.33 Environmental sampling of the Balkans, where more than 10 tons of DU was employed during the military conflict, has demonstrated no evidence of residual contamination in soil. water, or milk.18.54 As such, although continued surveillance of exposed cohorts and environments (particularly water sources) is recommended, current data would support the position of the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute that "DU is neither a radiological nor chemical threat."6

From the Australasian Radiation Protection Society:

http://www.arps.org.au/DU.htm

From:

http://www.cpeo.org/lists/military/2001/msg00029.html

From: Susan Gawarecki Date: 11 Jan 2001 18:39:21 -0000 Reply: cpeo-military Subject: [CPEO-MEF] Known properties and health impacts of DU

There have been a number of postings to the CPEO list regarding depleted uranium ammuntion and the potential environmental and health side effects. Below are two messages regarding known properties and health impacts of DU. These were posted on January 10 to the RadSafe list, which is a forum for radiation safety professionals. References and contacts of the authors are given.

--Susan Gawarecki

Message 1:

There are several reports in the news about the implied toxicity of depleted uranium used for projectiles and shielding material in modern warfare. It has been suggested to be a potent carcinogen and leukemia inducer.

The toxicity of uranium has been under study for at least 50 years including life span studies in small animals. Depleted uranium is only very weakly radioactive, and virtually all of the observed or expected effects are from nephrotoxicity associated with deposition in the kidney tubules and glomeruli damage at high doses. The radiation doses from depleted uranium (specific activity only 15 Bq/mg)(U-238 has a 4.5 billion year half life)are very small compared to potential toxic effects from uranium ions in the body (primarily damage to kidney tubules). The main route of potentially hazardous exposure is inhalation since gastrointestinal uptake is very small (<1/10,000).

Consider, for example the deposition of a respirable particle of depleted uranium dioxide in the human lung. If that particle is approximately spherical and has a diameter of 1 micrometer (aerodynamic diameter about 3 micrometer), it will emit an average of only one alpha particle every 100 days. Meanwhile the cells of the lung are being irradiated in a milieu of even more energetic alpha particles from natural radon and its decay products that are present in all the air on the surface of the earth. The total radiation dose to the lung from even relatively high exposures to airborne depleted uranium particles is not remarkable. The TLV is 0.2 mg/cubic-meter based on chemical toxicity.

After inhalation, uranium will be slowly mobilized and enter the systemic circulation. The uranyl ion is the form of mobile uranium within the body. It deposits at bone surfaces and remains in the bone matrix with a half time of up to one year. It is slowly cleared to the blood and excreted via the kidneys. While in the bone, alpha radiation is emitted, but with very low intensity since depleted uranium is not very radioactive. The range of alpha radiation in the bone is about 30 micrometer and the radiation is very diffuse, so the bone marrow is not effectively irradiated by uranium in the bone. Radiation induction of leukemia requires effective high dose-rate irradiation of the bone marrow. There is no known or expected leukemia risk associated with small amounts of U-238 in the bone because the marrow is not efficiently irradiated. [The same is true for much more highly radioactive radium-226 and plutonium-239.]

As to its "heavy Metal" toxicity, the closest analogy is lead. However, metallic lead has considerably higher toxicity than metallic uranium. Compounds of lead are much more hazardous than compounds of uranium since uranium tends to form relatively insoluble compounds which are not readily absorbed into the body. Also, lead within the body affects the nervous system and several biochemical processes, while the uranyl ion does not readily interfere with any major biochemical process except for depositing in the tubules of kidney where damage occurs if excess deposition occurs. Glomeruli damage has been reported at high doses as well. The kidney damage is dosage dependent and somewhat reversible. Lead bullets are probably more dangerous than uranium bullets.

References: "Handbook of the Toxicology of Metals", Friberg et al.(1990), "Uranium, Plutonium, Transplutonium Elements", Hodge et al. (1973), "A five year inhalation study with natural uranium dioxide", HEALTH PHYS 25, 230-258 (1973), "Depleted Uranium In The Gulf": http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du_ii

********************************************** Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D., CHP Institute of Toxicology & Environmental Health (Street Address: Bldg. 3792, Old Davis Road) University of California, Davis, CA 95616 E-Mail: ograabe@ucdavis.edu Phone: (530) 752-7754 FAX: (530) 758-6140 *********************************************** END Message 1

-----

Message 2:

A hot question now in Europe is depleted uranium in Kosowo. I prepared a text on this subject for the Polish government. ... _____________ Zbigniew Jaworowski Central Laboratory for Radiological Protection ul. Konwaliowa 7, 03-194 Warszawa, Poland voice: (48-22)717-6250; fax: 717-5324; e-mail: jaworo@clor.waw.pl [Dr. Jaworowski is the retired Head of the Central Lab, and member and former chairman of UNSCEAR.] -------------------------------------

MEDICAL EFFECTS OF DEPLETED URANIUM IN KOSOVO Zbigniew Jaworowski Central Laboratory for Radiological Protection, Warsaw, Poland

Between March and June 1999 about 3000 to 30 000 35 mm - caliber rounds, fitted with depleted-uranium, were fired over Kosovo and to a lesser extent over Serbia, mainly by American A-10 assault aircraft. The core of each round contained about 0.80 kg of almost pure uranium-238, from which its 14 radioactive daughters and uranium-235 were separated. This depleted uranium is much less radioactive than natural uranium normally present in the soil and rock, where it has since time immemorial been in equilibrium with radioactive isotopes of radium, radon, thorium, protoactine, polonium, lead and bismuth. During its decay it emits energetic alpha particles (4.26 MeV) and very weak beta (0.01 MeV) and gamma (0.001 MeV) radiation. However, its immediate short lived daughters emit a more energetic beta (2.29 MeV) and gamma (1.00 MeV) radiation. Alpha particles penetrate to a rather short distance in the air and in human tissues.

The total mass of depleted uranium dispersed over Kosovo ranged between 2.5 and 25 tons. The radioactivity of one round was about 10 megabecquerels (MBq). Assuming that 30 000 rounds were fired, one can easily calculate that a total activity of about 300 000 MBq of uranium-238 activity was dispersed over the environment of Kosovo. In a 1 cm thick layer of soil in Kosovo (area: 10 887 km2) the radioactivity of natural uranium-238 in equilibrium with its daughters amounts to about 100 000 000 MBq. Thus, a 1-cm thick layer of soil in Kosovo contains about 300 times more natural uranium than that dispersed there by American forces. However, at the target sites, the local concentrations of depleted uranium may be higher than the average concentration of natural uranium in the soil. From these patches of activity depleted uranium may be resuspended into the air, and also enter the food chain. This, however, should not lead to any observable medical consequences.

The weak beta and gamma radiation does not pose any serious radiation protection problems. For example, radiotoxicity of inhaled uranium-238 (in terms of Sv per Bq) is over 1000 times lower than radiotoxicity of cesium-137. Because of these features of depleted uranium, its radiation protection standards are based not on its radioactivity but on its chemical toxicity. Like other heavy metals (lead, cadmium, or mercury) uranium is a toxic agent. Experimental and epidemiological studies, carried out over half a century, suggest that the main adverse effect of uranium-238 is chemical impairment of the renal function. Secondary protection standards for uranium-238 (for example concentration limits in air and food) are based on a limit of 3 micrograms of uranium per gram of kidney.

In epidemiological studies of over 32 000 workers, exposed to uranium between 1943 and 1986 in nuclear installations in the USA and UK, except for renal problems, no other health impairment was observed, which could be related to this metal. Among this worker cohort mortality due to all diseases was lower than in the general population, and mortality due to all cancers and leukemia was also lower.

Among about 150 000 soldiers, who for various periods of time were stationed in Kosowo between March 1999 and the end of 2000, up to now 17 died due to leukemia. This corresponds to about 11 deaths per 100 000 soldiers. The annual leukemia death rate in the United Kingdom is 11 per 100 000. Thus, the rate of soldiers dying due to leukemia appears to agree with European norms.

Some years ago "clusters" of leukemia were found in several countries, in which the morbidity of leukemia was higher (up to ten times) than that in the general population. The first of such clusters was discovered in the village of Seascale, near Sellafield, which is the site of the main nuclear fuel reprocessing plant in the United Kingdom. The excess was reported in a television program in November 1983, and later similar clusters were found in other places in the UK and later in Germany, France, Canada and the USA. At first it was suspected that the cause of clusters are radioactive emissions from nuclear installations. However, it was soon realized that they also appear at other non-nuclear sites where migration of large number of people occurred. In an extensive review of these findings in its 1994 report UNSCEAR concluded that a possible explanation is that these excesses are due to a spread of infection resulting from the mixing of populations from urban and rural areas. One might expect that this phenomenon could also occur among large military formations. But this may not be the case in Kosovo, where the incidence of leukemia fits the European norm rather well. The shortest latency time for leukemia induced by ionizing radiation is two years. As this disease began to appear among the soldiers much earlier, and since no reports on a dramatic increase of renal problems were filed, the cause of leukemia in Kosovo, does not seem to be radiation from depleted uranium, but rather a natural one. This is supported also by the fact that no increase in diseases of kidneys, which are a critical organ for uranium, occurred among the soldiers in Kosovo.

Professor T. Domanski from Poland before few years served as a head of a study group of the Ministry of Health of Kuwait responsible for estimation of health effects depleted-uranium munition in this desert country. He recently reported that according to estimate of this group about 100 000 rounds with depleted uranium were fired over Kuwait during the Gulf War, what corresponds to about 300 tons of uranium dispersed in the environment. Unexploded munition, splinters and military equipment destroyed with uranium munition are stored at depots in the desert. Uranium contamination of the ground, up to a level 10 to 20 times higher than average natural level, was found only to a distance of up to 100 meters from the depots, and no contamination of local vegetation was observed. Professor Domanski reported that until 1998 no increase of leukemia and other cancers was observed in Kuwait, that might be related to depleted uranium.

So, is this just much ado about nothing, or is it merely an expression of a negative feeling towards a new type of ammunition or towards Americans?

From:

http://arc.cs.odu.edu:8080/dp9/getrecord/oai_dc/alsos.wlu.edu/oai:alsos.wlu.edu: 1763

Dublin Core Metadata

Title Toxicity of Depleted Uranium

Creator Priest, N. D.

Subject Chemistry

Subject Medical/Biological Effects of Radiation

Description This article examines the chemical and radiological effects of depleted uranium (DU) on human health. N. D. Priest asserts that depleted uranium, U-235, poses a negligible health risk to those exposed to it and that only in situations in which individuals receive large inhaled or ingested doses of it do chances exist for health complications. He cites medical studies that indicate that the risks posed by DU, under realistic estimations of exposure levels, are insignificant. Priest also points to supporting evidence provided by 22 American Gulf War veterans who have DU shrapnel present in their bodies and have shown no ill effects. He dismisses the claims by servicemen who were exposed to DU in the former Yugoslavia that they are suffering from medical complications caused by DU radiation exposure; he argues that DU radiation levels are so low that complications would not arise for several decades in those veterans. The issue of the health hazards associated with depleted uranium is highly controversial; this article represents one side of the controversy.

Publisher The Lancet

Date 27 January 2001

Kyle  posted on  2005-04-28   14:09:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Kyle (#33)

I've never read anything from the administration on this subject.

I don't believe you. It is very clear from your many posts on LP, and your posts here, that you have read plenty of propaganda, talking points, etc., from your administration. So there is no reason to suppose that you did not read about this subject.

What I do believe is: the persistent reports of illness among Gulf War I veterans, and birth defects among their offspring. Your telling us that depleted uranium is "less toxic than lead" (which is pretty toxic) is a weak, limp-wristed argument. But then, you administration shills are always doing weak, limp-wristed things.

You have never been convincing, in any of your many posts on LP, nor in your posts here, because your drive to defend your administration, above all else, makes your bias glaringly obvious. If you are receiving any compensation of any kind (monetary or otherwise, including inward feelings of self-satisfaction), you are getting this reward for free--because your strenuous defenses of Bush & Co. are completely ineffectual. One might even speculate that you do Bush more harm than good, by being so obvious a shill.

And your continued overblown support of this mal-administration makes you, in my opinion, as bloody-handed as is the administration itself. The blood of every American and Iraqi and Afghan needlessly killed in Bush's fraudulent war is on your hands. May you pay for it for all eternity, murderer.

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-28   14:10:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: tom007 (#0)

One wonders why this was done intially.

Could it have been a relatively easy way to utilise the vast amounts of nuclear material left over from the frantic pace of nuclear weapons building in the ColdWar.

At least they're going to be looking for an alternative.

swarthyguy  posted on  2005-04-28   14:12:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Zipporah (#48)

You havent addressed Dr. Rokke's position on DU nor why the UN called for a ban:

Who is Dr. Rokke? I submit that they are either looney or have a political axe to grind, as they are running counter to the good science that has been donr for half a century.

The UN's position is obvious - pure, unadulterated pandering to anti-US elements and crazed conspiracy theorists- happens ALL the time.

As for the rest of your post - it's BS (consider the sources) or has already been dealt w/ in my other posts.

Kyle  posted on  2005-04-28   14:14:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: SKYDRIFTER (#49)

Who are you to question an MD? I thought you lived & breathed for authority?

Read my other posts - I quote tons of experts who say the diameteric opposite. Why do you insist that the one looney is correct and ther vasdt majority are wrong? I know, it's the CONSPIRACY.

Kyle  posted on  2005-04-28   14:16:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: crack monkey, christine (#50)

i don't know what's going on either, but i can guess. it's spelled s-h-i-l-l.

Looking at the support Kyle offers for his arguments, my guess is that Kyle's primary purpose here is to punish people who dare voice opinions that diverge from the RNC party line.

Read my other posts. My bias is toward facts and logic. Your attempt to discredit me by labeling me is lame. Deal w/ the substance or remain quite.

Kyle  posted on  2005-04-28   14:18:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: crack monkey, SKYDRIFTER (#52)

This is true. I was told in chemestry class that all heavy metals are poisonous in a similar manner. Mercury, lead, etc. The explanation I heard is that we have no good mechanism for cleaning them from our system and that they destroy emzines necessary for life. Constant low level exposure to anything from that region of the periodic table builds up in our systems and is eventually toxic.

In spite of your memory of chemistry class, the truth is in my posts. Most is excreted rather quickly and studies have found that there is no evidence of significant hazard.

Kyle  posted on  2005-04-28   14:20:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Red Jones (#47)

They both agreed that about 85% of the radioactivity remains in the DU after the rest is extracted.

Taken in the context of a substance, both of who's isotopes have half lives measured in billions of years, it's next to nothing.

And, the substance is an Alpha emitter. A sheet of paper stops Alpha radiation because an Alpha "ray" is actually a helium nucleus.

Where DU simulation cores are used in testing at Livermore's site 300, the main issue is it's heavy metal toxicity from a materials management standpoint...

Axenolith  posted on  2005-04-28   14:23:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: SKYDRIFTER (#53)

You dumb-shit! U-238 is a variant of U-235 - and radioactive! What does the term "Half-life" tell you about U-238? You can't even comprehend what you write!

You may as well argue that U-239 isn't radioactive! Jesus jumpin'-up-Christ. How stupid do you want to portray yourself as?

I keep telling you how freakin' stupid you are, but you just won't listen!

You obviously no nothing about radioactivity. U238 is not a 'variant' of U235. They are separate isotopes with entirely different decay properties. The term 'half-life' means the time for half of the material to decay. the FACT that the HL of U238 is 4.5 billion years means that it emits radiation at VERY low levels!

You are calling me stupid while displaying your ignorance. Priceless.

Kyle  posted on  2005-04-28   14:23:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: Kyle (#61)

I submit that they are either looney or have a political axe to grind, as they are running counter to the good science that has been donr for half a century.

You profess to be an expert on DU and don't know who Dr. Rokke is?? I submit that your posts are BS since you claim to be such an expert and have no knowledge of Dr. Rokke.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-28   14:25:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: SKYDRIFTER (#53)

The longer a half-life a substance has, the more stable and less radioactive it is.

Axenolith  posted on  2005-04-28   14:25:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#59)

I've never read anything from the administration on this subject.

I don't believe you. It is very clear from your many posts on LP, and your posts here, that you have read plenty of propaganda, talking points, etc., from your administration.

Don't call me a liar, asshole.

I have the views I have for two reasons:

1) I'm educated.

2) I'm rational.

If you are receiving any compensation of any kind...

This is inevitable. Everytime I post the truth and it conflicts with the conspiracy theorist rantings on these boards, I am immediately labeled as a paid shill. That is a lame comeback - You can't support your position so you label me as part of the 'CONSPIRACY'.

Kyle  posted on  2005-04-28   14:32:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Kyle (#63)

Hi Kyle..

Here's Page Three of the DU MSDS Sheet. MSDS Sheet

Isn't the FIOA wonderful? The Navy sent this in response.

PS: Looks like the dust is explosive too.. Now, isn't that interesting?

Jhoffa_  posted on  2005-04-28   14:34:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Zipporah (#67)

You profess to be an expert on DU and don't know who Dr. Rokke is?? I submit that your posts are BS since you claim to be such an expert and has no knowledge of Dr. Rokke.

So let me see if I understand your reasoning. Every thing I've posted from experts worldwide is BS because I don't know who your looney is. Is that your reasoning?

Kyle  posted on  2005-04-28   14:36:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Jhoffa_ (#70)

Here's Page Three of the DU MSDS Sheet. MSDS Sheet

Isn't the FIOA wonderful? The Navy sent this in response.

PS: Looks like the dust is explosive too.. Now, isn't that interesting?

ROTFL!!!!

If that's what you're down to, I guess you are about to concede. I can show you and MSDS on the hazards of air!

Kyle  posted on  2005-04-28   14:38:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Kyle (#71)

    "8. Should DU be handled in powdered form [DU munitions create a fine powder when fired due to their pyrophoric nature] or should a DU penetrator oxidize resulting from a penetrator's involvement in an accident such as a fire, then the intake of DU aerosol or ash via inhalation, ingestion or absorption pesents an internal radiation hazard.

    9. Depending on the solubility of the particular DU compound in body fluids, it may also be toxic, particular to the kidney."

Holy Makral, Kyle.. this stuff sounds dangerous!

Then again, it's probably just those conspiracy kooks over at the US NAVY pulling everyones chain again, eh?

Jhoffa_  posted on  2005-04-28   14:41:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Kyle (#69)

Since you are so educated and rational, I know you are going to want to consult this information.

Mr Nuke Buzzcut  posted on  2005-04-28   14:41:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Kyle (#72)

I can show you and MSDS on the hazards of air!

Okay do it. Or, maybe you are just a liar.

Mr Nuke Buzzcut  posted on  2005-04-28   14:42:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Kyle (#72)

    If that's what you're down to, I guess you are about to concede.

But, I thought you liked authoritative sources, Kyle?

In an effort to accomidate this, I give you the US Navy themselves, and you choke.

Tsk, Tsk, Kyle.. For shame!

Jhoffa_  posted on  2005-04-28   14:43:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#75)

I agree with Kyle. Under certain cnditions, AIR may indeed be harmful.

Regardless however, it does nothing to prove DU is not.

If you read the link, they seem to be concerned aith fine particulates. They're a "radiation hazzard" Explosive and may be toxic, especially to the Kidney.

This ain't fucking Nerf balls we're shooting, regardless of Kyles (well intentioned, I'm sure..) arguements to the contrary.

Jhoffa_  posted on  2005-04-28   14:45:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: Kyle (#71)

Every thing I've posted from experts worldwide is BS because I don't know who your looney is. Is that your reasoning?

Dr. Doug Rokke was a U.S. Army health physicist assigned to 12th Preventive Medicine AM theater (Gulf War) and was with University of Illinois Physics Department and was "sent to the Gulf to ensure that all military and civilian personnel were prepared for the anticipated nuclear, biological, chemical, and environmental exposures. and was assigned to two equally vital special operations teams: Bauer's Raiders and the Depleted Uranium Assessment team."..so I suppose if he's loony then the military are the loons since they sent him there .. thus you are loony since you support the military and their use of DU.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-28   14:56:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: Jhoffa_ (#77)

An intact DU shell is not that big of a hazard - assuming the manufacturer uses ONLY depleted uranium. Unfortunately, studies have proven that the shells often have excessive concentrations of non-depleted uranium as well as other radioactive isotopes.

But the real issue, as you point out, is that a high percentage of the DU penetrator is gasified on impact. It becomes an aerosol. Consequently, you get high levels of internal contamination.

Kyle knows this. He knows damn well it is dangerous. He just doesn't care. Military be damned, civilians be damned, just so long as he gets to revel in the deaths of muslims.

Mr Nuke Buzzcut  posted on  2005-04-28   15:03:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Jhoffa_ (#73)

"8. Should DU be handled in powdered form [DU munitions create a fine powder when fired due to their pyrophoric nature] or should a DU penetrator oxidize resulting from a penetrator's involvement in an accident such as a fire, then the intake of DU aerosol or ash via inhalation, ingestion or absorption pesents an internal radiation hazard.

9. Depending on the solubility of the particular DU compound in body fluids, it may also be toxic, particular to the kidney."

Already addressed in previous posts. Hazards are minimal.

Kyle  posted on  2005-04-28   15:04:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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