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Title: Depleted U - An impromptu interview w/ a Career Tank Specialist
Source: me
URL Source: http://none.com
Published: Apr 27, 2005
Author: Tom007
Post Date: 2005-04-27 22:07:28 by tom007
Keywords: Specialist, impromptu, interview
Views: 2013
Comments: 488

Had an intesting conversation with a man I have known for about 5 months. He delivers to my store, handles alot of cash and is a "straight up" kind of guy. I like him, and I am sure his employer does as well. A steady Eddie man, the kind that makes the country run.

We somehow got talking about the ME, and he mentioned he had been to Egypt, and really did not care for any of it. I asked him how it was that he found himself in the ME and he said he was in the service of the military.

Naturally I wanted to know in what type of service he was in. Well, he was drafted into 'Nam, and did twentyfour years, and tanks were his thing. He started out in a tank designation I did not know of. I know a little about M1A1' and wanted to know some things about them, and the man was very evidently the real deal, no swagger, no he man stories etc. He is who he claims.

After some talk of tactics, guns, how to disable an M1A1, exploding armor, all of which he had the knolwedge of a solider who had spent many years with this type of equipment. He was pretty high up in the system.

Then I asked him about DU. Well turns out he was one of the men on the ground testing it at Aburdeen Proving grounds, shooting various things, like mounds of earth, then digging into it to estimate the ballistics, etc.

Did this many time, and my friend related that one time a DU projectile fragmented into the mound of earth. They were to go dig all the pieces of the remenents out. As he tells me, there was a hole that one of the fragments had made, and as they were poking around, a field mouse was scared up and scampered into that hole made by a fragment.

He just sat back and waited for it to come out-; it didn't. After a few minutes, he saw that it was dead.

He went and got the General of the testing operation, and showed him what he had discovered. The General and his men looked at the situation and told all the testers to go away. For three weeks the site was closed, except to the investigators.

Three weeks later, the investigation was complete. The report said the mouse died of "starvation". My friend looked at me, eye to eye, and laughed. "That mouse damn sure didn't die of starvation", he said emphatically.

He said when the DU rounds hit a tank, he could "see a mushroom cloud", formed (Note, alot of high intensity heat will form a mushroom cloud event).

He said "if you take a giger counter into one of the tanks with DU munitions it will beep like crazy". He said that the explosiom of a DU round into steel was" basically a miniature explosion of a nuclear bomb".

He said they would put goats in the test tanks, and around them. He stated that " for twentyfive meters around the tank, hit by a DU round, all the goats would be dead, ten meters, mangled, turned inside out".

He believed DU dust to be alot more dangerous than the military was allowing.

This man is much more creadible, to me, much more, than the talking hairdoo's reading spin points from the Pentagon.

Draw your own conclusions, this is what I heard today, from a man with incontrovertable creadibility with me. He was there.

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#1. To: All, christine, ziporrah, red jones, OKCsubmariner, wakeup, crack monkey, diana, jhoffa, arator, arete, its1allmosttoolate, (#0)

ping

tom007  posted on  2005-04-27   22:14:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: tom007 (#0)

I'm not sure what to make of the whole DU thing, but how do they actually split an atom to make an atomic explosion???

By smashing an atom from a material such as plutonium, or Uranium. If you have depleted Uranium, you have atoms that would create a similar blast, and seeing how it is depleted, as well as probably not focused it might make the same kind of minature explosion.

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2005-04-27   22:21:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: tom007, robin, justlurking, Jethro Tull, Arator, Aric2000, cruisinaround, SKYDRIFTER, ALL (#1)

whoa, tom, great post. i'm not one bit surprised. dammit, BRING 'EM HOME!

christine  posted on  2005-04-27   22:28:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: tom007 (#0)

Hell of a post, Tom.

I can only conclude (once again) that we are being ruled by madmen.

Arator  posted on  2005-04-28   0:01:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: All, *Restore the Republic* (#4)

ping!

Arator  posted on  2005-04-28   0:02:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: tom007 (#1)

DU Death Toll Tops 11,000

Nationwide Media Blackout Keeps U.S. Public Ignorant About This Important Story

http://americanfreepress.net/html/du_death_toll.html

By James P. Tucker Jr.

The death toll from the highly toxic weapons component known as depleted uranium (DU) has reached 11,000 soldiers and the growing scandal may be the reason behind Anthony Principi’s departure as secretary of the Veterans Affairs Department.

This view was expressed by Arthur Bernklau, executive director of Veterans for Constitutional Law in New York, writing in Preventive Psychiatry E-Newsletter.

“The real reason for Mr. Principi’s departure was really never given,” Bernklau said. “However, a special report published by eminent scientist Leuren Moret naming depleted uranium as the definitive cause of ‘Gulf War Syndrome’ has fed a growing scandal about the continued use of uranium munitions by the U.S. military.”

The “malady [from DU] that thousands of our military have suffered and died from has finally been identified as the cause of this sickness, eliminating the guessing. . . . The terrible truth is now being revealed,” Bernklau said.

Of the 580,400 soldiers who served in Gulf War I, 11,000 are now dead, he said. By the year 2000, there were 325,000 on permanent medical disability. More than a decade later, more than half (56 percent) who served in Gulf War I have permanent medical problems. The disability rate for veterans of the world wars of the last century was 5 percent, rising to 10 percent in Vietnam.

“The VA secretary was aware of this fact as far back as 2000,” Bernklau said. “He and the Bush administration have been hiding these facts, but now, thanks to Moret’s report, it is far too big to hide or to cover up.”

Terry Johnson, public affairs specialist at the VA, recently reported that veterans of both Persian Gulf wars now on disability total 518,739, Bernklau said.

“The long-term effect of DU is a virtual death sentence,” Bernklau said. “Marion Fulk, a nuclear chemist, who retired from the Lawrence Livermore Nuclear Weapons Lab, and was also involved in the Manhattan Project, interprets the new and rapid malignancies in the soldiers [from the second war] as ‘spectacular’—and a matter of concern.’ ”

While this important story appeared in a Washington newspaper and the wire services, it did not receive national exposure—a compelling sign that the American public is being kept in the dark about the terrible effects of this toxic weapon. (Veterans for Constitutional Law can be reached at (516) 474- 4261.)

Not Copyrighted. Readers can reprint and are free to redistribute - as long as full credit is given to American Free Press - 645 Pennsylvania Avenue SE, Suite 100 Washington, D.C. 20003

Itisa1mosttoolate  posted on  2005-04-28   0:15:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: TommyTheMadArtist, All (#2)

DU is actually less radioactive than U refined at it's natural isotope concentrations. I'd venture the critters around the tanks are killed mainly by kinetic effects. The finely divided metal is toxic merely from the standpoint of it's being a heavy metal, most are (like lead, chrome, cadmium, etc...)

If a geiger counter is set to detect any amount of radiation that's, say, 2X background, you're going to have it set so it'll "chatter" around something like a tank, because the sheer mass of the object incorporates far more radioisotopes than stuff like wood, dirt and other less dense items. The M1, IIRC, also has 10 tons of DU armor on it these days and while "depleted" of the more (relatively speaking) unstable 235 isotope, it'll still have enough to work that counter.

I sometimes carry around the Troxler nuclear density gauge, and get to wear a little badge because it has a Cesium and Americium source in it (one emits gamma and quantifies soil density, the other emits neutrons which are preferentially absorbed by the hydrogen in water and returns a moisture content). I'll bet dollars to donuts that less than 1 meter from that gauge with the probe retracted (it retracts back inside a lead enclosure with a tungsten sliding block to cover the opening) is probably the same or greater reading than one would find inside the tank.

Now, I'm not belittling the possibility that DU has screwed up folks, you'll be prettey well roasted if you inhale a few lungfulls of finely divided lead, and I'm willing to bet DU is going to be in the same neighborhood for unpleasantness unless and until the elemental metal is sequestered by processes such as further oxidation and binding with clays and such when it's dispersed in the environment. It's just that I don't believe that the toxicity is in any way related to any type of radioactve properties of the element.

Axenolith  posted on  2005-04-28   0:34:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: tom007 (#0)

My best guess is that the DU dust is physically toxic metal, similar to inhaling cyanide dust. It's not that much to do with the radiation.


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2005-04-28   1:53:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: SKYDRIFTER (#8)

My best guess is that the DU dust is physically toxic metal, similar to inhaling cyanide dust. It's not that much to do with the radiation.

OMG!!

Something that Sky says I agree with because it is actually factual!!

No, Skydrifter, that is EXACTLY right..

No guessing involved.

DU has the half the radioactivity of NATURAL Uranium.

There is NO possible way that it could ever create a nuclear reaction of ANY sort.

It is a heavy metal, and like any heavy metal, if ingested, like lead, it can lead to sickness, if too much is ingested. But radioactivity? Forget about it, and Nuclear reaction, totally, and completely IMPOSSIBLE.....

Aric2000  posted on  2005-04-28   2:14:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: SKYDRIFTER (#8)

The basic gist of this is...

Lead used as a projectile is JUST as big a deal as DU being used as a projectile.

The only reason that DU is such a big deal, is because it has Uranium in the name, and they can create a huge public problem with it.

It is just as dangerous as lead is, BUT, that is it....

SO, if you are going to freak out about DU, then you had better freak out about lead as well, otherwise, forget about it.....

Aric2000  posted on  2005-04-28   2:17:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: tom007 (#1)

This is one of the MANY issues that are being totally ignored by the media and worse, the military and congress etc. It's a national and international disgrace.. what is happening to our soldiers and what we're doing to the countries where DU is being used.. Have you seen the film by Dr. Rokke? Here is a link to the Dr. Rokke video as well as others on DU:

Snowshoe Films: DU

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-28   9:05:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Aric2000 (#10)

The only reason that DU is such a big deal, is because it has Uranium in the name, and they can create a huge public problem with it.

It is just as dangerous as lead is, BUT, that is it....

SO, if you are going to freak out about DU, then you had better freak out about lead as well, otherwise, forget about it.....

On this you are SO wrong.. why not defer to an expert like Dr. Doug Rokke rather than just reguritating the official BS?

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-28   9:09:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Aric2000, Zipporah (#10)

According to Dr. Rokke, DU is not purely DU, but is chocked full of other byproducts from nuclear fission, including highly radioactive elements.

It's basically low grade radioactive waste. Nothing to worry about, I'm sure. < /sarcasm >

Arator  posted on  2005-04-28   9:13:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Aric2000, tom007 (#10)

WHO ‘suppressed’ scientific study into depleted uranium cancer fears in Iraq

Poisoned? Shocking report reveals local troops may be victims of america's high-tech weapons

HOW DEPLETED URANIUM WEAPONS ARE KILLING OUR TROOPS *PIC* Posted By: ChristopherBollyn <Send E-Mail>
Date: Friday, 31 December 2004, 12:00 a.m.

The following document by Marion Fulk, a nuclear physical chemist, and Leuren Moret, a geo-scientist, provides a concise and essential explanation of the biological response to depleted uranium (DU) particulate internal exposure.

Military research laboratories report that the particulate effect of DU causes 1 million times more damage than the expected damage from the radiation effect alone - genetic damage. Cancer starts with a single alpha particle under the right conditions.

The following letter was written by Marion Fulk, former scientist with the Manhattan Project and nuclear physical chemist at the National [nuclear weapons] Laboratory at Livermore, California.

The letter is addressed to Dr. Chris Busby, a radiation expert who has written independent reports on low level radiation exposure for the British government and the European Parliament.

The use of depleted uranium weapons is causing a nuclear holocaust, with a global effect.

Leuren Moret,
Berkeley, California

December 14, 2004

Dr. Chris Busby
Green Audit
9 Prospect Street
Aberystwyth, Wales SY23 1JJ
United Kingdom

Dear Dr. Busby,

At your request, Marion Fulk and I are providing information and details on internal exposure to depleted uranium particulates.

Mr. Fulk is a nuclear physical chemist, retired from the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in Livermore, California. He conducted research on rainout of very fine radioactive particulates generated by atmospheric testing for the Nuclear Weapons Program. He holds a high level US Govt. clearance, and is an international expert on radiation and the biological effects from internal exposure.

I am the Past President of the Association for Women Geoscientists, with a background in the Geosciences. I have conducted extensive scientific research on atmospheric dust, the transport and cycling of radionuclides through the environment and through biological systems. I am recognized as an international expert, on the impact on global public health and the health of the environment, from radiation caused by atmospheric testing, nuclear power plants and depleted uranium.

Mr. Fulk and I are actively conducting research on the particulate effect, and internal radiation exposure. The particulate effect is newly recognized as a result of studies on the biological and medical effects of depleted uranium internal exposure.

THREE EFFECTS OF DEPLETED URANIUM INTERNAL EXPOSURE


Internal exposure to depleted uranium is known to have three separate effects which may or may not act together, which may occur at different times, or have delayed effects:

1. Chemical – changes in a substance due to an alteration of its chemical composition caused by changes in its atoms or molecules;

2. Radiological – changes when the nucleus of an isotope undergoes disintegration and releases energy in the form of alpha or beta particles and/or gamma rays. About 30% of radiation damage to cells is caused by the “bullet effect” of the alpha and beta particles tearing through the cells. About 70% of the damage is caused by changes in the cells and biological molecules from the energy dissipated along the pathway of the alpha and beta particles, and gamma rays;

3. Particulate – changes caused by the particle size, the most harmful being nano-particles which are defined as particles with a diameter of 0.1 micron and smaller.

Because you have already provided information about the chemical and radiological effects detailed in the ECRR Report (2003) and the CHERRIE Report (2004), this letter will primarily address the particulate effect.

THE PARTICULATE EFFECT

The “particulate effect” is a new phenomenon. It is now being recognized from research on nano-particles and from the effects of battlefield and downwind exposure to depleted uranium.

The resulting complex of diseases caused by depleted uranium and possible chemical exposure is known as Gulf War Syndrome (Table
1).

Depleted uranium gas and dust, formed on the battlefield, produces large numbers of extremely fine particles. The greatest number by mass on the battlefield are formed in the nano-particle range – 0.1 microns and smaller (1). Coincidentally, international funding and research in the new field of nano-technology has also provided details from studies on the effects of nano-particles, which until now have not been well studied. Recently discoveries have revealed that there is a particulate effect caused by these nano-particles in living tissues. There are now 16 peer-reviewed journals devoted to the new field of nano-technology.

In a normal air sample there are billions of dust particles in a range of sizes. For example there are 1 billion dust particles with a diameter of 0.1 micron per cubic meter. A diameter of 0.1 micron is about 100 times smaller than a blood cell. An average man breathes about 28 cubic meters of air per day, inhaling approximately 28 billion 0.1 micron particles.

This is also the peak population size of invisible atmospheric dust particles, which are transported around the world and remain permanently suspended until they are rained or snowed out of the atmosphere. Nano-particles remain suspended by Brownian motion, and do not behave like larger sized particles. They behave according to the rules of quantum mechanics.

Some nano-particles have catalytic and extraordinary electronic properties, like oxides of uranium, which behave in non-stoichiometric ways. Uranium is a very large and complex atom, with a large cloud of many electrons around the nucleus as well as in the outer shells. Uranium can act as a reducer, donating electrons, or as an oxidizer, scavenging or accepting electrons. Because uranium compounds are unpredictable in the way they behave, uranium is also biologically unpredictable. In this atmosphere of unpredictability characteristic of uranium, anything can happen.

Because uranium and phosphate have an interaction, uranium can interfere with biological processes where the phosphate structure is present. Examples are in the DNA, the histone or Master Code (2) which controls part of the _expression of the DNA, and fragments of the RNA which control part of the _expression of the DNA.

TRANSPORT AND EXPOSURE PATHWAYS

Exposure pathways for depleted uranium can be through the skin, by inhalation, and ingestion. Nano-particles have high mobility and can easily enter the body. Inhalation of nano-particles of depleted uranium is the most hazardous exposure, because the particles pass through the lung-blood barrier directly into the blood. In the blood they are transported throughout the body and may be filtered out by the tissues. Delivery to the cell systems is expedited by transport in the liposomes, and probably in cholesterol.

Because the depleted uranium particles are much smaller than the liposomes or cholesterol, their presence is masked or hidden from the cell defenses, and therefore can end up any place in the cell and tissues. Mild electric shocks can also transport things into cells, as was demonstrated in early lab experiments to modify genes, and the reported mixing of bacterial DNA from lightning strikes (3).

When inhaled through the nose, nano-particles can cross the olfactory bulb directly into the brain through the blood brain barrier, where they migrate all through the brain (4). Many Gulf-era soldiers exposed to depleted uranium have been diagnosed with brain tumors, brain damage, and impaired thought processes. Uranium can interfere with the mitochondria, which provide energy for the nerve processes, and transmittal of the nerve signal across synapses in the brain.

Damage to the mitochondria, which provide all energy to the cells and nerves, can cause chronic fatigue syndrome, Lou Gehrig’s disease, Parkinson’s Disease, and Hodgkin’s disease (5).

SIZE DETERMINES TOXICITY MORE THAN COMPOSITION

A limited number of animal studies have shown that inhaled nano-particles are more toxic than micro-sized particles of the same basic chemical composition (4). Top UK toxicopathologist Vyvyan Howard has reported that nano-particle toxicity is more related to their size than to the material they are made from (6). A good example is gold which is usually inert, but highly reactive at the nano-scale. Dr. Howard has claimed that nano-particles can move across the placental barrier from mother to fetus.

In a study on fish exposed to nano-particles reported by Jim Thomas in The Ecologist, “buckyballs” caused brain damage and genetic changes in fish (7). Prof. Guenter Oberdoester at the Univ. of Rochester Dept. of Environmental Medicine, reported that Teflon particles that were 0.13 microns in diameter (the size of a virus) caused no ill effects in mice. But when mice were exposed to nano-particles 0.02 microns in diameter for just 15 minutes, nearly all the mice were dead within 4 hours.

The exposure to nano-particles below a threshold size killed the mice, but there is no “dictionary disease” to explain the deaths, however the exposure had the effect of a disease.

Particles in the nano-particle range are a “new breed of cat”. They can get into vital process centers of the cell which larger diameter particles cannot reach. The processes are not fully understood.

Sincerely yours,

Leuren Moret and Marion Fulk
Berkeley & Livermore, California

REFERENCES:

1. “Characteristics of Particles and Particle Dispersoids”, HANDBOOK OF CHEMISTRY AND PHYSICS 53rd Edition (1961).
http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/Particle-Dispersoids-TableSep61.htm

2. “Preferential Staining of Nucleic Acid-Containing Structures For Electron Microscopy” H. E. HUXLEY, Ph.D., and G. ZUBAY, Ph.D., Biophysical and Biochemical Cytology 11 (2): 273. (Nov 1961)


http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/Huxley-Zubay-Staining1nov61.htm

3. “Isolation of Lightning-Competent Soil Bacteria” Hélène Cérémonie, François Buret, Pascal Simonet, and Timothy M. Vogel, Applied and Environmental Microbiology Journal (2004) V. 70 (10) p. 6342-6346.[link]

4. AMERICAN CHEMICAL SOCIETY MEETING: “Nanomaterials Show Signs of Toxicity” by Robert F. Service, Science 11 April 2003; 300: 243
US Congress. 2003. House of Representatives. Committee on Science Hearing: The Societal Implications of Nanotechnology. April 9, 2003, 2318 Rayburn House Office Building.

5. “Sandia nanolaser may help extend life-spans by rapidly analyzing possible neuroprotectant drugs” by Neal Singer, Sept. 19, 2003, p.1.

http://www.sandia.gov/LabNews/LN09-19-03/key09-19-03_stories.html#nano

6. “Dangers come in small particles” Hazards Magazine August 2004.http://www.hazards.org/nanotech/safety.htm

7. “Ten Toxic Warnings” by Jim Thomas, The Ecologist January 2004 p. 13.

robin  posted on  2005-04-28   9:49:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Aric2000, tom007 (#10)

Depleted Uranium: The Trojan Horse of Nuclear War

Depleted Uranium:
The Trojan Horse of Nuclear War

LEUREN MORET / World Affairs – The Journal of International Issues 1jul04

Heat not a furnace for your foe so hot that it do singe yourself.
William Shakespeare (1564-1616)

The use of depleted uranium weaponry by the United States, defying all international treaties, will slowly annihilate all species on earth including the human species, and yet this country continues to do so with full knowledge of its destructive potential.

LEUREN MORET

Since 1991, the United States has staged four wars using depleted uranium weaponry, illegal under all international treaties, conventions and agreements, as well as under the US military law. The continued use of this illegal radioactive weaponry, which has already contaminated vast regions with low level radiation and will contaminate other parts of the world over time, is indeed a world affair and an international issue. The deeper purpose is revealed by comparing regions now contaminated with depleted uranium — from Egypt, the Middle East, Central Asia and the northern half of India — to the US geostrategic imperatives described in Zbigniew Brzezinski’s 1997 book The Grand Chessboard.

Fig. 1: Brzezinski’s map of the Eurasian Chessboard

SOUTH REGION:

“This huge region, torn by volatile hatreds and surrounded by competing powerful neighbors, is likely to be a major battlefield, both for wars among nation-states and, more likely, for protracted ethnic and religious violence. Whether India acts as a restraint or whether it takes advantage of some opportunity to impose its will on Pakistan will greatly affect the regional scope of the likely conflicts. The internal strains within Turkey and Iran are likely not only to get worse but to greatly reduce the stabilizing role these states are capable of playing within this volcanic region. Such developments will in turn make it more difficult to assimilate the new Central Asian states into the international community, while also adversely affecting the American-dominated security of the Persian Gulf region. In any case, both America and the international community may be faced here with a challenge that will dwarf the recent crisis in the former Yugoslavia.” Brzezinski

The fact is that the United States and its military partners have staged four nuclear wars, "slipping nukes under the wire" by using dirty bombs and dirty weapons in countries the US needs to control. Depleted uranium aerosols will permanently contaminate vast regions and slowly destroy the genetic future of populations living in those regions, where there are resources which the US must control, in order to establish and maintain American primacy.

Described as the Trojan Horse of nuclear war, depleted uranium is the weapon that keeps killing. The half-life of Uranium-238 is 4.5 billion years, the age of the earth. And, as Uranium-238 decays into daughter radioactive products, in four steps before turning into lead, it continues to release more radiation at each step. There is no way to turn it off, and there is no way to clean it up. It meets the US Government’s own definition of Weapons of Mass Destruction.

After forming microscopic and submicroscopic insoluble Uranium oxide particles on the battlefield, they remain suspended in air and travel around the earth as a radioactive component of atmospheric dust, contaminating the environment, indiscriminately killing, maiming and causing disease in all living things where rain, snow and moisture remove it from the atmosphere. Global radioactive contamination from atmospheric testing was the equivalent of 40,000 Hiroshima bombs, and still contaminates the atmosphere and lower orbital space today. The amount of low level radioactive pollution from depleted uranium released since 1991, is many times more (deposited internally in the body), than was released from atmospheric testing fallout.

A 2003 independent report for the European Parliament by the European Committee on Radiation Risk (ECRR), reports that based on Chernobyl studies, low level radiation risk is 100 to 1000 times greater than the International Committee for Radiation Protection models estimate which are based on the flawed Atomic and Hydrogen Bomb Studies conducted by the US Government. Referring to the extreme killing effects of radiation on biological systems, Dr. Rosalie Bertell, one of the 46 international radiation expert authors of the ECRR report, describes it as:

"The concept of species annihilation means a relatively swift, deliberately induced end to history, culture, science, biological reproduction and memory. It is the ultimate human rejection of the gift of life, an act which requires a new word to describe it: omnicide."

1943 MANHATTAN PROJECT BLUEPRINT FOR DEPLETED URANIUM

In a declassified memo to General Leslie R. Groves, dated October 30, 1943, three of the top physicists in the Manhattan Project, Dr James B Conant, A H Compton, and H C Urey, made their recommendation, as members of the Subcommittee of the S-1 Executive Committee, on the ‘Use of Radioactive Materials as a Military Weapon’:

"As a gas warfare instrument the material would be ground into particles of microscopic size to form dust and smoke and distributed by a ground-fired projectile, land vehicles, or aerial bombs. In this form it would be inhaled by personnel. The amount necessary to cause death to a person inhaling the material is extremely small … There are no known methods of treatment for such a casualty … it will permeate a standard gas mask filter in quantities large enough to be extremely damaging."

As a Terrain Contaminant:

"To be used in this manner, the radioactive materials would be spread on the ground either from the air or from the ground if in enemy controlled territory. In order to deny terrain to either side except at the expense of exposing personnel to harmful radiations … Areas so contaminated by radioactive material would be dangerous until the slow natural decay of the material took place … for average terrain no decontaminating methods are known. No effective protective clothing for personnel seems possible of development. … Reservoirs or wells would be contaminated or food poisoned with an effect similar to that resulting from inhalation of dust or smoke."

Internal Exposure:

"… Particles smaller than 1µ [micron] are more likely to be deposited in the alveoli where they will either remain indefinitely or be absorbed into the lymphatics or blood. … could get into the gastro-intestinal tract from polluted water, or food, or air. … may be absorbed from the lungs or G-I tract into the blood and so distributed throughout the body."

Both the fission products and depleted uranium waste from the Atomic Bomb Project were to be utilised under this plan. The pyrophoric nature of depleted uranium, which causes it to begin to burn at very low temperatures from friction in the gun barrel, made it an ideal radioactive gas weapon then and now. Also it was more available because the amount of depleted uranium produced was much greater than the amount of fission products produced in 1943.

Britain had thoughts of using poisoned gas on Iraq long before 1991:

"I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes. The moral effect should be good... and it would spread a lively terror..." (Winston Churchill commenting on the British use of poison gas against the Iraqis after the First World War).

GUIDED WEAPONS SYSTEMS

Depleted uranium weapons were first given by the US to Israel for use under US supervision in the 1973 Sinai war against the Arabs. Since then the US has tested, manufactured, and sold depleted uranium weapons systems to 29 countries. An international taboo prevented their use until 1991, when the US broke the taboo and used them for the first time, on the battlefields of Iraq and Kuwait.

The US military admitted using depleted uranium projectiles in tanks and planes, but warheads in missiles and bombs are classified or referred to as a ‘dense’ or ‘mystery metal’. Dai Williams, a researcher at the 2003 World Depleted Uranium Weapons Conference, reported finding 11 US patents for guided weapons systems with the term ‘depleted uranium’ or ‘dense metal’, which from the density can only be depleted uranium or tungsten, in order to fit the dimensions of the warhead.

Figure 2 - Hard target guided weapons in 2002: smart bombs

& cruise missiles with "dense metal" warheads (updated September 2002)

Warhead weight

Hard
target guided weapons
in 2001: smart bombs & cruise missiles with

Warhead weights include explosives (~20%) and casing. Dense metal ballast or liners (suspected to be DU) estimated to be 50-75% of warhead weight - necessary to double the density of previous versions. AUP = Advanced penetrators. S/CH

= Shaped Charge. BR = BROACH Multiple Warhead System (S/CH+AUP). P = older 'heavy metal' penetrators. © Dai Williams 2002

source: Depleted Uranium weapons in 2001-2002: Occupational, public and environmental health issues - Mystery Metal Nightmare in Afghanistan? Collected studies and public domain sources compiled by Dai Williams, first edition 31 January 2002

Extensive carpet bombing, grid bombing, and the frequent use of missiles and depleted uranium bullets on buildings in densely populated areas has occurred in Iraq, Yugoslavia, and Afghanistan. The discovery that bomb craters in Yugoslavia in 1999 were radioactive, and that an unexploded missile in 1999 contained a depleted uranium warhead, implies that the total amount of depleted uranium used since 1991 has been greatly underestimated. Of even greater concern, is that 100 per cent of the depleted uranium in bombs and missiles is aerosolized upon impact and immediately released into the atmosphere. This amount can be as much as 1.5 tons in the large bombs. In bullets and cannon shells, the amount aerosolized is 40-70 per cent, leaving pieces and unexploded shells in the environment, to provide new sources of radioactive dust and contamination of the groundwater from dissolved depleted uranium metal long after the battles are over, as reported in a 2003 report by the UN Environmental Program on Yugoslavia. Considering that the US has admitted using 34 tons of depleted uranium from bullets and cannon shells in Yugoslavia, and the fact that 35,000 NATO bombing missions occurred there in 1999, potentially the amount of depleted uranium contaminating Yugoslavia and transboundary drift into surrounding countries is staggering.

Because of mysterious illnesses and post-war birth defects reported among Gulf War veterans and civilians in southern Iraq, and radiation related illnesses in UN Peacekeepers serving in Yugoslavia, growing concerns about radiation effects and environmental damage has stirred up international outrage about the use of radioactive weapons by the US after 1991. At the 2003 meeting of parties to the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, discussing the U.S. desire to maintain its nuclear weapons stockpile, the Hiroshima Mayor Tadatoshi AKIBA stated,

"It is incumbent upon the rest of the world ... to stand up now and tell all of our military leaders that we refuse to be threatened or protected by nuclear weapons. We refuse to live in a world of continually recycled fear and hatred".

ILLEGAL UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW

Four reasons why using depleted uranium weapons violates the UN Convention on Human Rights:

LEGALITY TEST FOR WEAPONS UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW

TEMPORAL TEST – Weapons must not continue to act after the battle is over.

ENVIRONMENTAL TEST – Weapons must not be unduly harmful to the environment.

TERRITORIAL TEST – Weapons must not act off of the battlefield.

HUMANENESS TEST – Weapons must not kill or wound inhumanly.

International Human Rights and humanitarian lawyer, Karen Parker, determined that depleted uranium weaponry fails the four tests for legal weapons under international law, and that it is also illegal under the definition of a ‘poison’ weapon. Through Karen Parker’s continued efforts, a sub-commission of the UN Human Rights Commission determined in 1996 that depleted uranium is a weapon of mass destruction that should not be used:

RESOLUTION 1996/16 ON STOPPING THE USE OF DEPLETED URANIUM - DU

The military use of DU violates current international humanitarian law, including the principle that there is no unlimited right to choose the means and methods of warfare (Art. 22 Hague Convention VI (HCIV); Art. 35 of the Additional Protocol to the Geneva (GP1); the ban on causing unnecessary suffering and superfluous injury (Art. 23 §le HCIV; Art. 35 §2 GP1), indiscriminate warfare (Art. 51 §4c and 5b GP1) as well as the use of poison or poisoned weapons.

The deployment and use of DU violate the principles of international environmental and human rights protection. They contradict the right to life established by the Resolution 1996/16 of the UN Subcommittee on Human Rights.

FOUR NUCLEAR WARS

"Military Men Are Just Dumb,
Stupid, Animals To Be Used
As Pawns In Foreign Policy"

Henry Kissinger

Although restricted to battlefields in Iraq and Kuwait, the 1991 Gulf War was one of the most toxic and environmentally devastating wars in world history. Oil well fires, the bombing of oil tankers and oil wells which released millions of gallons of oil into the Gulf of Arabia and desert, and the devastation from tanks and heavy equipment destroyed the desert ecosystem. The long term and far reaching effects, and dispersal of at least 340 tons of depleted uranium weapons, had a global environmental effect. Smoke from the oil fires was later found in deposits in South America, the Himalayas and Hawaii. Large annual dust storms originating in North Africa, the Middle East, and Central Asia will quickly spread the radioactive contamination around the world, and weathering of old depleted uranium munitions on battlefields and other areas will provide new sources of radioactive contamination in future years. Downwind from the radioactive devastation in Iraq, Israel is also suffering from large increases in breast cancer, leukemia and childhood diabetes.

RADIATION RESPECTS NO BORDERS, NO SOCIOECONOMIC CLASS, AND NO RELIGION

The expendability of the sanctity of life to achieve US political ends was described by US soldiers on the ground, and from the air, along the Highway of Death in Iraq in 1991:

"Iraqi soldiers [whether they] be young boys or old men. They were a sad sight, with absolutely no fight left in them. Their leaders had cut their Achilles’ tendons so they couldn’t run away and then left them. What weapons they had were in bad repair and little ammunition was on hand. They were hungry, cold, and scared. The hate I had for any Iraqi dissipated. These people had no business being on a battlefield."
(S Hersh, New Yorker, May 22, 2000)

American pilots bombing and strafing, with depleted uranium weapons, helpless retreating Iraqi soldiers who had already surrendered, exclaimed:

"We toasted him…. we hit the jackpot….a turkey shoot….shooting fish in a barrel….basically just sitting ducks… There’s just nothing like it. It’s the biggest Fourth of July show you’ve ever seen, and to see those tanks just ‘boom’, and more stuff just keeps spewing out of them… they just become white hot. It’s wonderful."

(L A Times and Washington Post, both February 27, 1991)

Nearly 700,000 American Gulf War Veterans returned to the US from a war that lasted just a few weeks. Today more than 240,000 of those soldiers are on permanent medical disability, and over 11,000 are dead. In a US Government study on post-Gulf War babies born to 251 veterans, 67 per cent of the babies were reported to have serious illnesses or serious birth defects. They were born without eyes, ears, had missing organs, fused fingers, thyroid or other malfunctions. Depleted uranium in the semen of the soldiers internally contaminated their wives. Severe birth defects have been reported in babies born to contaminated civilians in Iraq, Yugoslavia, and Afghanistan and the incidence and severity of defects is increasing over time. Women in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq are afraid now to have babies, and when they do give birth, instead of asking if it is a girl or a boy, they ask ‘is it normal?’.

KNOWN ILLNESSES INFLICTED BY INTERNALIZATION OF DEPLETED URANIUM PARTICLES

Table 1: Compiled by Leuren Moret from Interviews with Gulf War Vets and their families

GENERAL

abnormal births and birth defects
abnormal metabolism of semen: contains

amine & ammonium alkaline
acute autoimmune symptoms
(lung-, liver-, kidney failure)
acute myeloid leukemia
(deadly within days or weeks)

acute immune depression
acute respiratory failure
asthma
auto-immune deficiencies
Balkan-syndrome
blood in stools and urine

body function control loss
bone cancer
brain damage
brain tumors
burning semen
burning sensations

calcium loss in body
cardiovascular signs or symptoms
chemical sensitivities
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
chronic kidney and liver disorders
chronic myeloid leukemia

chronic respiratory infections
colon cancer
confusion
diarrhea
digestive problems
dizziness

Epstein Barr Syndrome
fluid buildup
fibromyalgia

gastrointestinal signs/symptoms
general fatigue

genetic alterations
glandular carcinoma
Gulf war-syndrome
headaches (severe)
heart attack/disease
high blood pressure

high frequency of micturition
Hodgkin lymphoma
immune system deficiency
infections
insomnia
involuntary movements

joint/muscle/leg pain
kidney failure/damage
leukemia
liver carcinoma
loss of feeling in fingers
Lou Gehrigs Disease -ALS

low blood oxygen saturation
( low HbO2)
low lung volume
lung damage
lung cancer
lymph cancer

lymphoma
melanoma
memory loss
metallic taste
Microplasma fermentans/
incognitis infections

mood swings – violence
homicide/
suicide

multiple cancers
multiple myeloma
myeloma

muscle pain
nerve damage
neuro-muscular degenerative
disease
non-Hodgkin lymphoma
other malignancies

pancreas carcinoma
Parkinsons disease
petit & grand mal fits
rashes
reactive airway disease

reduced IQ
respiratory ailments
shortness of breath
sinus diseases
skin cancer
skin damage: sweat glands

with trapped du-particles
skin infections
skin spotting
smell, loss of
sleep disturbances
stiffening of fingers

teeth crumbling
thyroid cancer
thyroid disease
unable to walk
unusual fevers/night sweats
unusual hair loss

vision problems
weight loss

CHILDREN

alimentary disorders
asthma
bladder & sphincter paralysis
blindness
complete range of known and

unknown Congenital Defects
deafness
dyspraxia
headache
kidney disease
leukemia

lymphoma
malformations of legs, arms,
toes & fingers
respiratory disorders
stillbirth

neural tube defects

FEMALE

abdominal pain
breast cancer
breast cancer at very young

age (20)
cervix cancer
endometriosis
headaches
incontinence
joint pain

lung cancer at age 20 and
non-smoker
menstrual problems
miscarriages
nausea
ovarian cancer

paralysis of digestive system
thyroid problems
uterine cancer

MALE

(acute) headache
acute myeloid leukemia
arthritis
avoiding people
breathing problems
(stridor)

chemical sensitivity
chronic myeloid leukemia
endometriosis in partners
gastrointestinal disorder
hip and leg pain
joint pain

lung cancer at young age
lymphoma
skin cancer
skin eruptions
stomach pain
suicide

testicular cancer
unable to walk

VISIE: http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/du-diagnosis.html
DESERT SHIELD/DESERT STORM website: http://www.ushostnet.com/gulfwar/articles.htm 04/1504

Soldiers who served in Bradley fighting vehicles, where it was common to sit on ammunition boxes where depleted uranium ammunition was stored, are now reporting that many have rectal cancer.

For the first time, medical doctors in Yugoslavia and Iraq have reported multiple in situ unrelated cancers developing in patients, and even in families who are living in highly contaminated areas. Even stranger, they report that cancer was unknown in previous generations. Very rare and unusual cancers and birth defects have also been reported to be increasing above normal levels prior to 1991, not only in war torn countries, but in neighbouring countries from transboundary contamination.

Dr. Keith Baverstock, a senior radiation advisor who was on the staff of the World Health Organization, co-authored a report in November 2001, warning that the long-term health effects of depleted uranium would endanger Iraq’s civilian population, and that the dry climate would increase exposure from the tiny particles blowing around and be inhaled for years to come. The WHO refused to give him permission to publish the study, bowing to pressure from the IAEA. Dr. Baverstock released the damning report to the media in February 2004. Pekka Haavisto, Chairman of the UN Environment Program’s Post-Conflict Assessment Unit in Geneva, shares Baverstock’s anxiety about depleted uranium but UNEP experts have not been allowed into Iraq to assess the pollution.

"DEPLETED URANIUM SCARE" - Claimed by President George W. Bush on the official White House website:

"During the Gulf War, coalition forces used armor-piercing ammunition made from depleted uranium, which is ideal for the purpose because of its great density. In recent years, the Iraqi regime has made substantial efforts to promote the false claim that the depleted uranium rounds fired by coalition forces have caused cancers and birth defects in Iraq. Iraq has distributed horrifying pictures of children with birth defects and linked them to depleted uranium. The campaign has two major propaganda assets:"

"Uranium is a name that has frightening associations in the mind of the average person, which makes the lie relatively easy to sell; and Iraq could take advantage of an established international network of antinuclear activists who had already launched their own campaign against depleted uranium."

"But scientists working for the World Health Organization, the UN Environmental Programme, and the European Union could find no health effects linked to exposure to depleted uranium."

The US war in Afghanistan made it clear that this was not a war IN the third world, but a war AGAINST the third world. In Afghanistan where 800 to 1000 tons of depleted uranium was estimated to have been used in 2001, even uneducated Afghanis understand the impact these weapons have had on their children and on future generations:

"After the Americans destroyed our village and killed many of us, we also lost our houses and have nothing to eat. However, we would have endured these miseries and even accepted them, if the Americans had not sentenced us all to death. When I saw my deformed grandson, I realized that my hopes of the future have vanished for good, different from the hopelessness of the Russian barbarism, even though at that time I lost my older son Shafiqullah. This time, however, I know we are part of the invisible genocide brought on us by America, a silent death from which I know we will not escape."
(Jooma Khan of Laghman province, March 2003)

In 1990, the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority (UKAEA) wrote a report warning about the potential health and environmental catastrophe from the use of depleted uranium weapons. The health effects had been known for a long time. The report sent to the UK government warned "in their estimation, if 50 tonnes of residual DU dust remained ‘in the region’ there could be half a million extra cancers by the end of the century [2000]." Estimates of depleted uranium weapons used in 1991, now range from the Pentagon’s admitted 325 tons, to other scientific bodies who put the figure as high as 900 tons. That would make the number of estimated cancers as high as 9,000,000, depending on the amount used in the 1991 Gulf War. In the 2003 Gulf War, estimates of 2200 tons have been given — causing about 22,000,000 new cancer cases. Altogether the total number of cancer patients estimated using the UKAEA data would be 25,250,000. In July of 1998, the CIA estimated the population of Iraq to be approximately 24,683,313.

Ironically, the UN Resolution 661 calling for sanctions against Iraq, was signed on Hiroshima Day, August 6, 1990.

THE PARALLELS

War can really cause no economic boom, at least not directly, since an increase in wealth never does result from destruction of goods.
– Ludwig von Mises

The parallels between Iraq, Yugoslavia and Afghanistan are startlingly similar. The weapons used, the unfair treaties offered by the US, and the bombing and destruction of the environment and entire infrastructure. In every city of Iraq and Yugoslavia, the television and radio stations were bombed.

Educational centres were targeted, and stores where educational materials were sold were destroyed on nearly the same day. Under UN sanctions, Iraq was not even allowed pencils for schoolchildren. Cultural antiquities and historical treasures were targeted and destroyed in all three countries, a kind of cultural and historical cleansing, a collective national psychic trauma.

The permanent radioactive contamination and environmental devastation of all three countries is unprecedented, resulting in huge increases in cancer and birth defects following the attacks. These will increase over time from unknown effects due to chronic exposure, increasing internal levels of radiation from depleted uranium dust, and permanent genetic effects passed on to future generations. Clearly, this has been a genocidal plan from the start.

Fig. 3: Map of regions within a 1000 mile radius of Baghdad and Afghanistan which have been contaminated with depleted uranium since 1991. Depleted uranium dust will be repeatedly recycled throughout this dry region, and also carried around the world. More than ten times the amount of radiation, released during atmospheric testing, has been released from depleted uranium weaponry since 1991. In 2002 the US government admitted that every person living in the US between 1957 and 1963 was internally contaminated with radiation. Note that the contaminated region corresponds with the "South" region on the Eurasian chessboard in Fig. 1.

What has happened to Human Rights, to the Rights of the Child, to civil society, and to common humanity?

It is up to the citizens of the world to stop the depleted uranium wars, and future nuclear wars, causing irreversible devastation. There are just a few generations left before the collapse of our environment, and then it will be too late. We can be no healthier than the health of the environment — we breathe the same air, drink the same water, eat food from the same soil.

"Our collective gene pool of life, evolving for hundreds of millions of years has been seriously damaged in less than the past fifty. The time remaining to reverse this culture of ‘lemming death’ is on the wane. In the future, what will you tell our grandchildren about what you did in the prime of your life to turn around this death process?" (Rosalie Bertell, 1982)

THE DEEPER PURPOSE: G*O*D* [Gold, Oil, and Drugs]

"We must become the owners, or at any rate the controllers at the source, of at least a proportion of the oil which we require."

(British Royal Commission, agreeing with Winston Churchill's policy towards Iraq 1913).

"It is clear our nation is reliant upon big foreign oil. More and more of our imports come from overseas."
(US President George W. Bush, Beaverton, Oregon, Sep. 25, 2000).

"If they turn on the radars we're going to blow up their goddamn SAMs (surface-to-air missiles). They know we own their country. We own their airspace... We dictate the way they live and talk. And that's what's great about America right now. It's a good thing, especially when there's a lot of oil out there we need."


(US Brig. General William Looney in 1999, referring to Iraq).

Millions of years ago, before India crashed into the Eurasian continent and uplifted the Himalayas, the ancient shallow Tethys sea stretched from the Atlantic across what is now the Mediterranean, Black, Caspian and Aral seas. Rich oil deposits are now located where ancient life accumulated and ‘cooked’ under just the right conditions to form large oil deposits in the ancient sediments. Long before 1991, Unocal in Afghanistan, Amoco in Yugoslavia, and various oil companies interested in Iraq oil deposits, had conducted extensive exploration and characterisation of oil deposits in the Middle East and Central Asian regions, including the northern half of India.

Britain has maintained an interest in Middle Eastern oil deposits for a century, and has been the staunchest military partner of the US since the first depleted uranium war in 1991 in Iraq. Germany, another military partner in Yugoslavia with forces now in Afghanistan, was one of the major economic beneficiaries of the breakup of Yugoslavia and the colonisation of the Balkans. US interest in Yugoslavia had much to do with building pipelines from Central Asia to the Mediterranean warm water ports in Yugoslavia. A silent and hidden partnership between the US and Japan provided large amounts of cash from Japan to finance the 1991 Iraq and 1995/1999 Yugoslavian wars, with additional help in Afghanistan by providing not only cash, but fuel for the war, from Aegis warships of the Japanese Self Defense Forces in the Indian Ocean. Nippon Steel, Mitsubishi, and Halliburton are now partners in a Central Asian oil pipeline project. In 2004, despite much citizen opposition in Japan, the Japanese government has sent Self Defense Forces to Iraq for ‘reconstruction’. This action taken by the Japanese government, of placing troops on the ground in a war zone, will lead to rescinding Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution, which forever prohibits military aggression by Japan.

THE IRON TRIANGLE (all under one roof): MILITARY, BIG BUSINESS, POLITICS

The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power.

- Franklin Delano Roosevelt

But what do oil, military partners, depleted uranium wars, and US foreign policy have to do with nuclear weapons? The answer came to me in 1991 when I became a whistleblower at the Livermore Nuclear Weapons Laboratory near San Francisco, California. Richard Berta, the Western Regional Inspector for the Department of Energy, told me "The Pentagon exists for the oil companies… and the nuclear weapons labs exist for the Pentagon."

Depleted uranium was used beginning in 1991 for three reasons:

  • To test the radiobiological effects of 4th generation nuclear weapons, which are still under development

  • To blur and break down the distinction between conventional and nuclear weapons
  • To make it easier to reintroduce nuclear weapons into the US military arsenal

Today, the US is number one in 4th generation nuclear weapons research and development, followed by Japan and Germany tied for number two, and Russia and other countries follow.

Figure 4: Depleted uranium and 4th generation nuclear weapons

Map by Mika TSUTSUMI 12/12/03

The Carlyle Group, a private massive equity firm, the 12th largest defense business with an obscenely high profit margin, is a business "arrangement" between the Bush and Bin Laden families, wealthy Saudis, former British Prime Minister John Major, James Baker III, Afsaneh Masheyekhi, Frank Carlucci, Colin Powell, other former US Government administrators, and Madeleine Albright’s daughter. The Carlyle Group is the ‘gatekeeper’ to the Saudi investment community. It owns 70 percent of Lockheed Martin Marietta, the largest military contractor in the US, and because Carlyle is privately owned, has no scrutiny or accountability whatsoever. A journalist who calls himself ‘a skunk at the garden party’ described investigating the Carlyle Group, he said ‘it’s like shadow boxing with a ghost’. The Group hires as lobbyists the best known politicians from around the world, in order to influence the politics of war, and privately profit from their previous public policies. The conflict of interest is obvious: President George W. Bush is creating wars as his father, former President George Bush, is globally peddling weapons and "protection". Lockheed Martin Marietta now owns Sandia Laboratories, a private contractor that makes the trigger for nuclear weapons, with a Sandia laboratory facility across the street from Los Alamos and Livermore National Laboratories, where the nuclear bombs are made.

At the May 2003 University of California Regents meeting which I attended, Admiral Linton Brooks was present and newly in charge of the nuclear weapons programme under the Department of Energy. Admiral Brooks informed California Lt. Governor Cruz Bustamante and the UC Regents that the management contract for the nuclear weapons laboratories, held unchallenged by the University of California for over 60 years, will be put up for competitive bid in 2005. The favoured institution, with a faculty member on the ‘blue ribbon committee’ making the contract award, is the University of Texas. This privatisation and management contract transfer of the US nuclear weapons programme will put control of the US nuclear weapons programme close to the Carlyle Group. The incestuous relationship between the US government, private companies, and the Bush and Bin Laden families in a way answers many of the lingering questions in everyone’s minds about many of the ill fated decisions and policies that have been implemented.

But who is Osama bin Laden really?
Let me rephrase that. What is Osama bin Laden?

He’s America’s family secret. He is the American President’s dark doppelganger.

The savage twin of all that purports to be beautiful and civilised. He has been sculpted from the spare rib of a world laid to waste by America’s foreign policy; its gunboat diplomacy, its nuclear arsenal, its vulgarly stated policy of "full spectrum dominance," its chilling disregard for non-American lives, its barbarous military interventions, its support for despotic and dictatorial regimes, its merciless economic agenda that has munched through the economies of poor countries like a cloud of locusts. Its marauding multinationals who are taking over the air we breathe, the ground we stand on, the water we drink, the thoughts we think.

Arundhati Roy
The Algebra of Infinite Justice

Leuren Moret has worked at two US nuclear weapons laboratories as a geoscientist. In 1991 she became a whistleblower at the Livermore nuclear weapons lab, and since then has worked as an independent citizen scientist and radiation specialist in communities around the world, and contributed to the UN subcommission investigating depleted uranium. Her research on the environmental and public health effects of low level radiation from atmospheric testing fallout, nuclear power plants, and depleted uranium weaponry, is available on the internet and at http://www.mindfully.org. In 2003, she testified at the International Criminal Tribunal for Afghanistan held in Japan, and presented at the World Depleted Uranium Weapons Conference in Hamburg, Germany, and at the World Court of Women at the World Social Forum in Bombay, India in January 2004. She is a Contributing Editor to GLOBAL OUTLOOK, a City of Berkeley Environmental Commissioner, and the Past President of the Association for Women Geoscientists.

More on Mindfully.org by Leuren Moret

Websites:

  • International Criminal Tribunal for Afghanistan written opinion of Judge N. Bhagwat: also at http://www.traprockpeace.org/tokyo_trial_13march04.doc

  • Question 11: What does the US Government know about depleted uranium: http://traprockpeace.org/moret_25nov03.pdf

  • World Depleted Uranium Weapons Conference: http://www.uraniumweaponsconference.de

  • Radiation and Public Health Project: http://www.radiation.org

  • "A comparison of delayed radiobiological effects of depleted-uranium munitions versus fourth-generation nuclear weapons"

    by A. Gsponer, J.-P. Hurni, and B. Vitale, 4th International Conference of the Yugoslav Nuclear Society, Belgrade, September 30-October 4, 2002. http://arXiv.org/abs/physics/0210071

  • "Fourth Generation Nuclear Weapons: The Physical Principles Of Thermonuclear Explosives, Inertial Confinement Fusion, And The Quest For Fourth Generation Nuclear Weapons" by Andre Gsponer and Jean-Pierre Hurni http://www.inesap.org/publ_tech01.htm

  • 54 minute VPRO Dutch TV "Carlyle Group" documentary on internet: http://www.vpro.nl/info/tegenlicht/index.shtml?7738514+7738518+7738520+11838857

    • Real Player Video Documentary on the Carlyle Group, by VPRO Dutch television [500 kbps real video]

    • Real Player Video Documentary on the Carlyle Group, by VPRO Dutch television [100 kbps real video]

    • Overview of documentary - Interactive Flash Animation - with links to biographies and articles (Dutch) and specific sections of video.

    • English translation of Dutch introduction Translation of the first one minute forty seven seconds of this program.

      The war in Iraq is over.

      The rubble is still smoking While the first dozers are already entering the country.
      After the coalition forces destroyed Baghdad it is now primarily American companies who are to rebuild Iraq.

      An interesting point is that these companies usually have people on the payroll who have been politicians. Is this a conflict of interests or a new (global) way of doing business?

      One of the corporations that work this way is the Carlyle Group. On their payroll are people like : George Bush (Sr.), James Baker III and old premier John Major.

      The Carlyle Group is a private investment bank which doesn't come to the publics attention very often but it is one of the biggest American (ed: USA) investors of the defense industry, telecom, property and financial services.

      What is the Carlyle Group? Who are the people behind the name? And how much power does Carlyle have?

  • Global Outlook: http://www.globalresearch.de

  • An interesting response. . .

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Leuren Moret" <leurenmoret@yahoo.com>
    To: < [US Army Col Special Ops Green Beret] >

    Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 12:56 AM
    Subject: Re: Treachery And Treason

    Hi John - Here is an article coming out in July in World Affairs Journal. Can you please tell me what you think and whose decision it could have been to use DU on the Arab world? It looks to me like it was in the 1970s.

    Leuren

    -------- Response ---------

    From: < [US Army Col Special Ops Green Beret] >
    To: "Leuren Moret" <leurenmoret@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Treachery And Treason

    Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 11:10:01 -0700

    Hi Leuren,

    Your report is very comprehensive and compelling.

    It begs the question WHO and WHY re the responsibility for the decision to create an area of deniability that covers the Arab world.


    It seems credible that the decision to isolate the Arab occupied areas of the world was and is intentional for the express purpose of controlling the flow of oil from Russia, through the mid-east countries of Afghanistan and Iraq (with eventual expansion to Syria and Iran and North Africa, and Saudi Arabia) while simultaneously destroying the current population to preclude resistance.

    Deaths in the contested area as a direct result of DU is, in my opinion, the covert means by which CONTROL over these lands will be accomplished.

    Systems must be in development to eventually provide automated CONTROL of the oil production mechanisms with minimum human exposure for maintenance. High altitude observation will CONTROL the threat of sabotage in ways perfected to secure Area 51 in Nevada.

    Whose Idea was this scenario? Henry Kissinger's fingerprints are all over this project. The Carlyle Group is in perfect position to carry out Henry's design.

    Take for example the exposure of Kissinger's genocidal action by configuring over 3000 secret B-52 strikes (using multiple aircraft) on Cambodia (1969-72) as written in the book "Side Show". B-52's would take off from Guam with assigned targets in North and South Vietnam only to receive in-flight changes of the coordinates to targets in Cambodia. Only the Command Pilot and the Navigator were aware of the changes, by design, to keep the bombing of Cambodia compartmentalized from other crew members to minimize compromising the illegal acts of war on a neutral country. This dovetails with the covert DU attack on the Arab World. It also provides the reason the US. Air Force ran out of 750 bombs during the Vietnam War. This also provides insight as to the diversion of the war on terrorism which began in Afghanistan only to be shifted, without justification, to Iraq, thereby cutting off the available resources to go after bin Laden and al Qaeda strongholds in Afghanistan. It is now apparent that the United States only wanted the appearance of going after bin Laden since he is an integral part of the Carlyle Group. These are the "sources and methods" which must be kept compartmented from the clueless.

    Henry's other quote re military is; "they are mindless cattle". But, then again, the military leadership excepts it's existence as "expendable assets".

    He would have made a wonderful Nazi. Right up there with Goebbels, Eichmann, Erlichman, Haldeman, und Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz.


    We have definitely become the Aggressor Nation. I fear we will pay dearly for the criminal greed of those responsible.

    I will wait until your material is published before passing it on to interested parties.

    Strangely enough, the Trojan Horse inside a shield was the Green Beret emblem of the 10th Special Forces Group in Germany in the fifties and sixties....that was my first exposure to diabolical thinking and the "sources and methods" of the Agency.

    Best,
    John

robin  posted on  2005-04-28   10:05:42 ET  (5 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Arator, Aric2000, Zipporah, SKYDRIFTER (#13)

According to Dr. Rokke, DU is not purely DU, but is chocked full of other byproducts from nuclear fission, including highly radioactive elements.

It's basically low grade radioactive waste.

Whoever this Dr. Rokke is, their wrong. Aric2000 has it right, but actually overstated the problem. Lead is more chemically toxic than DU and DU is far less than 1/2 as radioactive as natural (3% U235) uranium. The half life of U238 is in the billions of years, so its decay rate is extremely low.

The radioactive waste remark is ludicrously off base. Even if the DU were made from radioactive waste (which it isn't; it's made from natural uranium ores as a byproduct of enrichment), other radioative isotopes could not be present because of the process used.

Uranium is reacted with fluorine to produce uranium hexafluoride gas. At this point, most other radioactive elements are exclude because they don't react with fluorine under the same conditions.

Then the gas is centrifuged over and over and over to separate the U238 and the U235 based on the slight difference in density. Any other gaseous radioactive compounds that MIGHT be present would have densities so low that they would all be separated out with the U235. This is purely theoretical because, in practice, they don't exist.

The gas is converted back into nearly pure U238. The only contaminate possible is residual U235, but the level is monitored closely.

Because DU comes from natural uranium and because of the production process and the monitoring of U235 levels, the resultant DU poses less of a radioactive risk than other natural and man-made sources.

Kyle  posted on  2005-04-28   10:08:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Kyle (#16)

the resultant DU poses less of a radioactive risk than other natural and man-made sources.

me-thinks you are in denial Mr. Kyle. I've read and heard from several experts who were paid by the US government to look into this, and they concluded that DU is deadly. There's also people paid by the UN to study this and they've concluded the same.

My goodness, a VA sponsored scientist concluded that DU killed 11,000 US soldiers from Gulf War 1 and you are still in denial over this.

I guess you can't handle the truth.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-04-28   10:16:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: tom007 (#0)

It is a HUGE irony that the propaganda those who rule over us used to justify their war on Iraq prominently claimed that Iraq represented a WMD threat, and then we invaded, and then we left behind DU which is upon close examination a WMD.

There are many among the regime that rules who will lie blatantly on this issue. The experts that our government has paid to look at this and have then concluded that DU is extremely bad news are just pushed to the side and not funded anymore. But these people have spoken. Only a few Americans will even hear them. Such is the nature of the propaganda coming down on the Americans.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-04-28   10:23:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Red Jones, christine, Zipporah, Arator, Kyle, Aric 2000 (#17)

Hey you guys--why would two people who regularly drink the poisoned Kool-aid of the repukelican propaganda machine be worried about the poisonousness of DU?

Any points you make with these shills, no matter how rational the points, will not be absorbed. They just aren't programmed to think independently. They are only programmed to regurgitate what their masters tell them to spew.

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-04-28   10:30:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Red Jones (#17)

I guess you can't handle the truth.

I know that he's never passed a Geiger counter over a piece of the stuff. Compared to anything you'll encounter in normal life, the stuff is hot as hell, many, many times what normal background radiation is. I wonder what he thinks he's getting out of spreading this bullshit.

Esso  posted on  2005-04-28   10:36:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Esso (#20)

I know, I read some comments above, they seem surreal. People are saying that because DU has only half or some portion of the radiation of refined uranium, then it is OK. I guess we should sprinkle it on cereal in the morning because it is only half the health problem as refined uranium.

Look DU is the stuff they use to actually create the material that goes in bombs. But they're unable to take all the radiation out of the DU, a lot still remains in it. After it is exploded and made a very fine dust it travels in the air, people who breathe it die, they get cancer, they produce birth-defect kids.

For crying out-loud there's been hundreds of thousands of American children born with birth-defects in the last 15 years whose daddies were exposed to this while in the military. and the bush-bots just can't face this reality.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-04-28   10:43:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Zipporah (#12)

Zipporah, I am NOT wrong.

DU has HALF the radioactivity of NATURAL Uranium, in other words very low, natural uranium is NOT toxic, except when swallowed, and again, ONLY because it is a heavy metal.

So please, get a grip on reality, DU is as dangerous as lead, PERIOD, end of story, it is just as dangerous as ANY OTHER heavy metal, the radioactivity is so far below TOXIC levels that it is NOT even worth discussing.

So, PLEASE, quit with the propaganda crap and listen to science, and COMMON SENSE!!!

Aric2000  posted on  2005-04-28   10:48:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Red Jones (#21)

Oh please, get a GRIP, it would NOT be the radioactivity, DU is NOT that hot, it has HALF the radioactivity of NONREFINED NATURAL URANIUM!!!

SO please, ALL of you, GO GET A FRICKING EDUCATIONS.......

PLEASE!!!

Aric2000  posted on  2005-04-28   10:50:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Aric2000 (#23)

Have you read what the physicists have to say? Or are you just way smarter than those guys. Yeah, that's it.

robin  posted on  2005-04-28   10:52:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Aric2000 (#22)

like I said, medical doctors and scientists hired by the US Army, hired by the VA, hired by the UN, hired by UN associated NGOs, and others working for private charities have investigated this stuff and found it to be extremely harmful.

They use this DU material to make nuclear bombs. But it is not radioactive, and it is not dangerous you say.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-04-28   10:53:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Red Jones (#25)

It is just as toxic as any other heavy metal......

Please, I have worked with this crap for years, it is NOT harmful unless A: you are sniffing it like Coke, or are sprinkling it on your breakfast cereal.

M-1 armour uses Depleted Uranium, and has for over 20 years, so for you to start hoppiong up and down about HOW radioactive it, when in fact IT IS NOT, and how dangerous it is, WHEN in fact it is just as dangerous as ANY OTHER heavy metal is beyond me.

Go ahead, get suckered, I don't care, but I have worked with the stuff, I have fired the stuff, and it is just as dangerous as ANY OTHER HEAVY METAL.

It has URANIUM in the name, so these people you quote can make a BIG deal out of it.

It is NOT that big a deal, I wouldn't want to breathe the dust, because just like lead, it can be toxic, but the radioactivity of DU is NIL, you'd need to bathe in the shit for a year before getting the eqivalent of an X-ray.

Aric2000  posted on  2005-04-28   11:00:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Red Jones (#25)

They use this DU material to make nuclear bombs. But it is not radioactive, and it is not dangerous you say.

ROFLMAO!!!

Oh please!! Get a grip on reality, if you used DU in a nuclear weapon it would NOT go off, DU is NOT a fissile material.

No matter what you did to DU, it could NEVER, EVER explode in a nuclear reaction, NEVER. It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

It would be just like using LEAD as the fissile material.

You're NUTS, totally and absolutely NUTS.

DU used in nuclear weapons.....ROFLMAO!!!

Aric2000  posted on  2005-04-28   11:03:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Aric2000 (#27)

DU is a by-product of the process that is used to create the material that is used in nuclear weapons. and the majority of the radioactivity remains in the DU after this process is done. It may be a weaker concentration, but it is still there. And regardless, actual experience with this material shows it to be a very bad killer. Many people have confirmed this.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-04-28   11:10:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Aric2000 (#22)

So, PLEASE, quit with the propaganda crap and listen to science, and COMMON SENSE!!!

I could very well tell you the same thing.. as I sugguested, read or watch the video from Dr. Rokke and then let me know your thoughts on what he has to say..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-28   11:15:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Esso (#20)

the arrogance is astounding, isn't it?

christine  posted on  2005-04-28   11:20:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Aric2000 (#22)

Aric shutting down and not taking in any information.. from BOTH sides of an issue.. not looking at primary documentation is more than foolish and more than closeminded... Seems your ranting has caused you to ignore the info that robin and others have posted.. not propaganda but science.. so if you chose to ignore the facts then so be it but to tell others that they are not using common sense is absolutely ridiculous.

here is an entire plethora of links on DU..

The Trail of a Bullet series

Also.. this is from the military.. :

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-28   11:28:42 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#19)

They just aren't programmed to think independently. They are only programmed to regurgitate what their masters tell them to spew.

Independent thinkers they are not.. and the use of critical thought is apparently a foreign concept. What is astounding
is that they totally shut down.. how dare anyone believe anything other than the official BS?
Of course the government would NEVER do anything other than be benevolent.. LOL!

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-28   11:38:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t, Red Jones, christine, Zipporah, Arator, Aric 2000 (#19)

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t: Hey you guys--why would two people who regularly drink the poisoned Kool-aid of the repukelican propaganda machine be worried about the poisonousness of DU?

Red Jones: me-thinks you are in denial Mr. Kyle. I've read and heard from several experts who were paid by the US government to look into this, and they concluded that DU is deadly. There's also people paid by the UN to study this and they've concluded the same.

My goodness, a VA sponsored scientist concluded that DU killed 11,000 US soldiers from Gulf War 1 and you are still in denial over this.

1) I've never read anything from the administration on this subject. My information is based purely on my knowledge of the subject matter from independent sources.

2) I've yet to see anything purporting to 'prove' that DU is deadly, or that it has killed any significant number of people (except in the intended manner), that didn't have all the earmarks of crackpottery.

Do you deny any of the facts that I posted? That the half-life of U238 is in the order of billions of years and therefore has very, very low radioactivity? That DU contains virtually nothing except U238 and trace amounts of U235 and cannot contain other radioactive isotopes by virtue of the manufacturing process? That the chemical toxicity of U238 is much lower than that of the the principle alternative, lead?

Name calling and charges of brainwashing aren't an argument. I gave you facts.

Kyle  posted on  2005-04-28   11:41:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Kyle (#33)

Do you deny any of the facts that I posted? That the half-life of U238 is in the order of billions of years and therefore has very, very low radioactivity? That DU contains virtually nothing except U238 and trace amounts of U235 and cannot contain other radioactive isotopes by virtue of the manufacturing process? That the chemical toxicity of U238 is much lower than that of the the principle alternative, lead?

Name calling and charges of brainwashing aren't an argument. I gave you facts.

Reading the thread, I think what you are giving these people is your half baked unsupported opinion. Like the other times you have argued on this forum, you present NOTHING to back up the shit that spews from your mouth.

No facts.

No figures.

No supporting documents,

No logic.

Just spew from the mind of a 14 year old.

You stated above that lead is much more poisonous than DU. Why should anyone believe you? You are not qualified to make this statement. You have no facts to defend it. Lead has been in the environment for centuries. It's very common. A great deal is known about the toxic properties. DU on the other hand is not common, studies have only just begun and the sample group is still small.

Can you give us a basis for your childish opinion that doesn't come from Newsmax or some other equally silly piece of propaganda?

crack monkey  posted on  2005-04-28   12:42:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Red Jones, Aric2000 (#28)

DU is a by-product of the process that is used to create the material that is used in nuclear weapons.

True.

...and the majority of the radioactivity remains in the DU after this process is done.

Unadulterated BS. It is virtually all removed, because virtually all of the U235 is removed. U238 has a half-life in billions of years.

It may be a weaker concentration, but it is still there.

In trace amounts

And regardless, actual experience with this material shows it to be a very bad killer. Many people have confirmed this.

Many flakes. This is almost entirely a politicized issue.

Aric - Your statement that DU is not used in nuclear warheads is not technically true. It is not used in the fissile core, because it cannot sustain a chain reaction. It is used in the shell of thermonuclear devices because it will 'fast fission' under the bombardment of neutrons from the fusion reaction. In fact, this fast fission represents most of the yield of what are commonly referred to as fusion devices. This is just a technical corection and does not refute your absolutely correct position that DU is not capable of chain reaction and has very, very low radioactivity.

Kyle  posted on  2005-04-28   12:49:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Kyle (#33)

Name calling and charges of brainwashing aren't an argument. I gave you facts.

Where did I call you any names?? Seems that crap was started not by me ..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-28   12:52:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: crack monkey, h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t, Red Jones, christine, Zipporah, Arator, Aric 2000 (#34)

Can you give us a basis for your childish opinion that doesn't come from Newsmax or some other equally silly piece of propaganda?

Suck on this:

http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jdw/dutoxic010112_1_n.shtml

A short review of depleted uranium toxicity

By Prof Otto G Raabe PhD, CHP Institute of Toxicology & Environmental Health University of California

There are several reports in the news about the implied toxicity of depleted uranium used for projectiles and shielding material in modern warfare. It has been suggested to be a potent carcinogen and leukemia inducer.

The toxicity of uranium has been under study for at least 50 years including life span studies in small animals. Depleted uranium is only very weakly radioactive, and virtually all of the observed or expected effects are from nephrotoxicity associated with deposition in the kidney tubules and glomeruli damage at high doses. The radiation doses from depleted uranium (specific activity only 15 Bq/mg)(U-238 has a 4.5 billion year half life) are very small compared to potential toxic effects from uranium ions in the body (primarily damage to kidney tubules). The main route of potentially hazardous exposure is inhalation since gastrointestinal uptake is very small (<1/10,000).

Consider, for example the deposition of a respirable particle of depleted uranium dioxide in the human lung. If that particle is approximately spherical and has a diameter of 1 micrometer (aerodynamic diameter about 3 micrometer), it will emit an average of only one alpha particle every 100 days. Meanwhile the cells of the lung are being irradiated in a milieu of even more energetic alpha particles from natural radon and its decay products that are present in all the air on the surface of the earth. The total radiation dose to the lung from even relatively high exposures to airborne depleted uranium particles is not remarkable. The TLV is 0.2 mg/cubic-meter based on chemical toxicity.

After inhalation, uranium will be slowly mobilized and enter the systemic circulation. The uranyl ion is the form of mobile uranium within the body. It deposits at bone surfaces and remains in the bone matrix with a half time of up to one year. It is slowly cleared to the blood and excreted via the kidneys. While in the bone, alpha radiation is emitted, but with very low intensity since depleted uranium is not very radioactive. The range of alpha radiation in the bone is about 30 micrometer and the radiation is very diffuse, so the bone marrow is not effectively irradiated by uranium in the bone. Radiation induction of leukemia requires effective high dose-rate irradiation of the bone marrow. There is no known or expected leukemia risk associated with small amounts of U-238 in the bone because the marrow is not efficiently irradiated. [The same is true for much more highly radioactive radium-226 and plutonium- 239.]

As to its "heavy metal" toxicity, the closest analogy is lead. However, metallic lead has considerably higher toxicity than metallic uranium. Compounds of lead are much more hazardous than compounds of uranium since uranium tends to form relatively insoluble compounds which are not readily absorbed into the body. Also, lead within the body affects the nervous system and several biochemical processes, while the uranyl ion does not readily interfere with any major biochemical process except for depositing in the tubules of kidney where damage occurs if excess deposition occurs. Glomeruli damage has been reported at high doses as well. The kidney damage is dosage dependent and somewhat reversible. Lead bullets are probably more dangerous than uranium bullets.

References: "Handbook of the Toxicology of Metals", Friberg et al.(1990), "Uranium, Plutonium, Transplutonium Elements", Hodge et al. (1973),

"A five-year inhalation study with natural uranium dioxide", HEALTH PHYS 25, 230-258 (1973),

"Depleted Uranium In The Gulf": http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du_ii/

Kyle  posted on  2005-04-28   12:54:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: christine (#30)

the arrogance is astounding, isn't it?

I don't know what's going on here or why, but what I do know is that when I was trained in the use of radiation detection equipment over 20 years ago, the source that was used for practice detection was depleted uranium plates about 1/4" thick and 2" by 10" long. The Geiger counters would detect this with no problem. I no longer remember the exact ranges that we used, but to say that it is not a radiation source is ludicrous. The instructor explained that even though it was a low level radiation source, exposure to it should be kept to a minimum.

As far as this BS about "natural uranium", it doesn't occur naturally anymore than steel does. It has to be refined, processed and enriched.

The next thing we'll be hearing is that the "spent" fuel rods from nuke plants can be used as swizzel sticks. Sheesh.

Esso  posted on  2005-04-28   12:55:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Zipporah (#36)

Do you deny any of the facts that I posted?

Apparently not.

Kyle  posted on  2005-04-28   12:56:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Kyle, robin (#39)

Apparently not.

Nor did you address any of the facts that robin posted ..so lets see you address those.. then I'll address those..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-04-28   12:58:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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