Freedom4um

Status: Not Logged In; Sign In

9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: An explosion of disbelief - fresh doubts over 9/11
Source: http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=6013
URL Source: http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=6013
Published: Feb 10, 2007
Author: Sue Reid
Post Date: 2007-02-10 08:45:52 by Kamala
Ping List: *9-11*     Subscribe to *9-11*
Keywords: None
Views: 14050
Comments: 205

An explosion of disbelief - fresh doubts over 9/11 Sue Reid – The Daily Mail February 10, 2007

The official story of what happened on 9/11 never fails to shock. Four American airliners are hijacked by Osama Bin Laden's terrorists in an attack on the heart of the Western world on September 11, 2001.

Two are deliberately flown into New York's famous Twin Towers, which collapse. A third rams into the United States defence headquarters at the Pentagon, in Washington D.C.

The last goes down in rural Pennsylvania, 150 miles north of the capital, after a tussle between the hijackers and some of the passengers onboard, whose bravery was recently portrayed in a Hollywood film, United 93.

Nearly 3,000 ordinary, decent Americans die in the attacks, provoking the U.S. President George W. Bush to mount a global war on terror, which leads to the invasion of Iraq, with Britain in tow.

Or that's how the official story goes.

Yet today, more than five years on, this accepted version of what happened on 9/11 is being challenged by a 90-minute internet movie made for £1,500 on a cheap laptop by three young American men. The film is so popular that up to 100 million viewers have watched what is being dubbed the first internet blockbuster.

The movie was shown on television to 50 million people in 12 countries on the fifth anniversary of 9/11 last autumn. More than 100,000 DVDs have been sold and another 50,000 have been given away. In Britain, 491,000 people have clicked on to Google Video to watch it on their computers.

Called Loose Change, the film is a blitz of statistics, photographs pinched from the web, eyewitness accounts and expert testimony, all set to hip-hop music. And it is dramatically changing the way people think about 9/11.

A recent poll by the respected New York Times revealed that three out of four Americans now suspect the U.S. government of not telling the truth about 9/11. This proportion has shot up from a year ago, when half the population said they did not believe the official story of an Al Qaeda attack.

The video claims the Bush administration was, at the very least, criminally negligent in allowing the terrorist attacks to take place. It also makes the startling claim that the U.S. government might have been directly responsible for 9/11 and is now orchestrating a cover-up.

Unsurprisingly, the film's allegations have been denied, even roundly condemned, by White House sources and U.S. intelligence services.

Only this week, the letters page of the Guardian newspaper was full of discourse about Loose Change, which was made by a trio of twentysomethings, including a failed film school student and a disillusioned ex-soldier.

Indeed, the movie's assertions are being explored by a number of commentators in America and Britain - including the former Labour Cabinet Minister Michael Meacher - who are questioning the official account of 9/11.

Mr Meacher, who last year proposed holding a screening of Loose Change at the House of Commons (he later changed his mind), has said of 9/11: "Never in modern history has an event of such cataclysmic significance been shrouded in such mystery. Some of the key facts remain unexplained on any plausible basis."

These words were written in a foreword for Professor David Ray Griffin's bestselling book, The New Pearl Harbour (a pointed reference to the conspiracy theory that President Roosevelt allowed the Japanese to assault the U.S. fleet in 1941, in order to force America into World War II).

Griffin, now nearing retirement, is emeritus professor at the Claremont School of Theology in California and a respected philosopher. While Loose Change is capturing the interest of internet devotees, Professor Griffin's equally contentious theories are receiving standing ovations in book clubs across the U.S.

Together, the book and the movie have raised the question: could the attack be a carbon copy of Operation Northwoods, an aborted plan by President Kennedy to stage terror attacks in America and blame them on Communist Cuba as a pretext for a U.S. invasion to overthrow Fidel Castro?

In other words, on a fateful September morning in 2001, did America fabricate an outrage against civilians to fool the world and provide a pretext for war on Al Qaeda and Iraq?

This, and other deeply disturbing questions, are now being furiously debated on both sides of the Atlantic.

Why were no military aircraft scrambled in time to head off the attacks? Was the collapse of the Twin Towers caused by a careful use of explosives? How could a rookie pilot - as one of the terrorists was - fly a Boeing 757 aircraft so precisely into the Pentagon? And who made millions of dollars by accurately betting that shares in United and American Airlines, owners of the four doomed aircraft, were going to fall on 9/11 as they duly did?

An extremely high volume of bets on the price of shares dropping were placed on these two airline companies, and only these two. In the three days prior to the catastrophe, trade in their shares went up 1,200 per cent.

Initially, like most people in America, Professor Griffin dismissed claims the attacks could have been an inside job.

It was only a year later, when he was writing a special chapter on American imperialism and 9/11 for his latest academic tome, that the professor was sent a 'timeline' on the day's events based entirely on newspaper and television accounts. It was then that he changed his mind.

And one of the most puzzling anomalies that he studied was that none of the hijacked planes was intercepted by fighter jets, even though there was plenty of time to do so and it would have been standard emergency procedure in response to a suspected terrorist attack.

Indeed, it is mandatory procedure in the U.S. if there is any suspicion of an air hijack. In the nine months before 9/11, the procedure had been implemented 67 times in America.

Readers of The New Pearl Harbour and viewers of Loose Change are reminded that it was 7.59am when American Airlines Flight 11 left Boston. Fifteen minutes later, at 8.14am, radio contact between the pilot and air traffic control stopped suddenly, providing the first indication that the plane might have been hijacked.

Flight 11 should have been immediately intercepted by fighter pilots sent up from the nearby McGuire Air Force Base in New Jersey. They could have made the journey to the World Trade Centre in three minutes.

But, surprisingly, F-15 fighter jets were instead ordered out of an airbase 180 miles away at Cape Cod. They appear to have flown so slowly - at 700mph, instead of their top speed of 1,850mph - that they did not arrive in time to stop the second attack, on the South Tower of the World Trade Centre. They were 11 minutes too late.

And this is not the only worrying question. Incredibly, the attack on the Pentagon was not prevented either. The defence headquarters was hit by the hijacked American Airlines Flight 77 at 9.38am. But fighter jets from Andrews Air Force Base, just ten miles from Washington, weren't scrambled to intercept it.

Instead, jets were ordered from Langley Air Force Base in Virginia, 100 miles away. By the time they arrived, Flight 77 had already hit the Pentagon.

So what of the fall of the Twin Towers?

The official version is that the buildings collapsed because their steel columns were melted by the heat from the fuel fires of the two crashed planes.

It is a mantra that has been repeated in White House briefings, official inquiries into 9/11, leaks by the American intelligence services and almost every TV documentary on the attack in the U.S. and Britain.

But, according to the allegations of Loose Change (which are endorsed by Professor Griffin), the science does not stand up. Steel does not begin to melt until it reaches around 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit, but open fires of jet fuel - such as those in the Twin Towers inferno - cannot rise above 1,700 degrees.

Professor Griffin and the makers of Loose Change are convinced the Twin Towers were deliberately blown up.

The film shows clip after clip of the towers coming down in one fell swoop to loud and distinct booms. Were they the sound of detonators being set off?

And the Pentagon attack? The hotly disputed theory of the film and Professor Griffin is that a passenger plane never hit the building at all.

The terrorist pilot, Hani Hanjour, was so slow to learn the fundamentals at flight school that his tutors reported him to the authorities for his incompetence five times.

How could he have guided the huge aircraft in such a complex manoeuvre into the building? And if he did, what happened to the aircraft?

The Loose Change narrator says: "The official explanation is that the intense heat from the jet fuel vapourised the entire plane. Indeed, from the pictures, it seems there was no discernible trace of a fully loaded Boeing 757 at the crash scene.

"But if the fire was hot enough to incinerate a jumbo jet, then how could investigators identify 184 out of 189 dead people found at the defence headquarters?"

Intriguingly, the narrator adds: "The only visible damage to the outer wall of the Pentagon is a single hole no more than 16ft in diameter. But a Boeing 757 is 155ft long, 44ft high, has a 124ft wingspan and weighs almost 100 tons.

"Are we supposed to believe that it disappeared into this hole without leaving any wreckage on the outside? Why is there no damage from the wings or the vertical stabiliser or the engines which would have slammed into the building?

"Remember how big the engines were," the film adds persuasively.

"If six tons of steel and titanium banged into the Pentagon at 530mph, they would bury themselves inside the building, leaving two very distinct imprints. And yet the only damage to the outer wall is this single hole."

And what of the Boeing's 40ft high tail? "Did it obligingly duck before entering the building?" asks Professor Griffin.

So if a commercial aircraft did not hit the building, what did? The wildest of all the theories in Professor Griffin's writings - echoed in Loose Change - is that the Pentagon was attacked by a military missile of some kind. Certainly, several onlookers quoted in the film claim that they saw a tiny aircraft piercing the defence HQ.

Another witness says it made a shrill noise, quite unlike a giant passenger plane.

So if it wasn't hijacked and flown by a terrorist into the Pentagon, what happened to Flight 77, last heard of on its way to Ohio?

No one knows. But one thing is sure, asserts Professor Griffin. Dick Cheney, the U.S. vice- President, and Condoleezza Rice, at the time President Bush's national security adviser, were in the White House bunker as the drama unfolded.

They, and their advisers, knew a hijacked aircraft was heading towards Washington. The obvious target was the White House, not the Pentagon. Yet Cheney and Rice were never evacuated from the White House. Did someone in high places already know that they were safe and that it was the Pentagon that was going to be the target?

Of course, no account of 9/11 by the conspiracy lobby is complete without a minute-by-minute observation of President Bush's behaviour.

He was hundreds of miles away in Florida, about to read a book to primary school children when the worst terrorist attack of the modern age happened.

The President reportedly showed little reaction when an aide told him that the first plane had crashed into the Twin Towers. Why not?

He, apparently, told the school's principal: "A commercial plane has hit the World Trade Centre, but we're going ahead with the reading thing anyway."

Then President Bush, who is also the commander-in-chief of the American military, settled down to recite My Pet Goat to a group of seven-year-olds.

He was interrupted a few minutes later by a whispered message in his ear from an aide that a second aircraft had hit the Twin Towers.

The President's face, captured by photographers at the school, remained completely passive. He showed no sign of emotion.

Now it must have been obvious a terrorist maelstrom was being unleashed on his country. But three days later, back in the American capital, he was a different man. By now he was certain that Osama Bin Laden and his Al Qaeda henchmen were to blame.

Surrounded by the Christian evangelist preacher Billy Graham, a cardinal, a rabbi and an imam, the President delivered a sermon in America's national cathedral in Washington.

The words he uttered are recounted by both Professor Griffin and the makers of Loose Change.

President Bush announced: "Our responsibility to history is already clear: to answer these attacks waged against us by stealth, deceit and murder and rid the world of evil."

The scene had been swiftly set for the West's war on terror. www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=435265&in_page_id=1811

Watch Loose Change here.

Printer friendly version Email this article to a friend

Last updated 10/02/2007

Homepage Subscribe to *9-11*

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 177.

#30. To: Kamala, ALL (#0)

Called Loose Change, the film is a blitz of statistics, photographs pinched from the web, eyewitness accounts and expert testimony, all set to hip-hop music. And it is dramatically changing the way people think about 9/11.

Now the cold hard facts about the Loose Change video:

The ScrewLooseChange video:
http://www.lolloosechange.co.nr/

A guide to the ScrewLooseChange video:
http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html

A great blog related to the ScrewLooseChange video:
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/

A related discussion forum:
http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/

More great data:
http://lol.chroniclesofgaras.com/sources.html

The above sites are the arsenal of anyone confronting those promoting LooseChange.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-10   17:25:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: BeAChooser (#30) (Edited)

Honestly, while a good introduction for the average citizen, it has some sloppy of information.

I like to use the BPAT/FEMA/NIST reports to refute the governments own fairytale. The reports are full of deception and misleading conclusions.

Kamala  posted on  2007-02-10   17:31:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Kamala, ALL (#32)

Griffin, now nearing retirement, is emeritus professor at the Claremont School of Theology in California and a respected philosopher. While Loose Change is capturing the interest of internet devotees, Professor Griffin's equally contentious theories are receiving standing ovations in book clubs across the U.S.

***********

http://www.911myths.com/html/quote_abuse.html

"Quote Abuse

... snip ...

----------------------

Then we have this quote from a David Ray Griffin essay:

----------------------

"Craig Carlsen said that he and other firefighters “heard explosions coming from . . . the south tower. . . . There were about ten explosions. . . . We then realized the building started to come down” (NYT, Carlsen, pp. 5-6)." http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html

-------------------

Here's the full version, with the snipped part in bold (which is our emphasis).

-------------------

"...there were about ten explosions. At the time I didn't realize what it was. We realized later after talking and finding out that it was the floors collapsing to where the plane had hit. We then realized the building started to come down". http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110505.PDF

-----------------

And another, from the same Griffin piece:

-----------------

"Firefighter Joseph Meola said, “it looked like the building was blowing out on all four sides. We actually heard the pops" http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html

-----------------

Again, a possible attempt to offer an alternative explanation to explosives, that the “pops” may have been the building falling, has been omitted (our emphasis):

-----------------

"As we are looking up at the building, what I saw was, it looked like the building was blowing out on all four sides. We actually heard the pops. Didn't realize it was the falling -- you know, you heard the pops of the building. You thought it was just blowing out." http://a1022.g.akamai.net/f/1022/8160/1d/www.newsday.com/includes/fdny-9-11/pdf/9110287.pdf

------------------

... snip ...

*******************

Looks like Griffin was committing quote abuse.

And here's something else written by *Professor* Griffin:

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2006/911-WTC-Twin-Towers26jan06.htm

In it he states

To return now to testimonies about explosions: There were many reports about an explosion in the basement of the north tower. For example, janitor William Rodriguez reported that he and others felt an explosion below the first sub-level office at 9 AM, after which co-worker Felipe David, who had been in front of a nearby freight elevator, came into the office with severe burns on his face and arms yelling "explosion! explosion! explosion!"6

Rodriguez’s account has been corroborated by José Sanchez, who was in the workshop on the fourth sub-level. Sanchez said that he and a co-worker heard a big blast that “sounded like a bomb,” after which “a huge ball of fire went through the freight elevator.”7

But why is this unexpected if a plane full of fuel hit the structure and penetrated the elevator shafts as numerous eyewitnesses testified? One would expect fuel released from the impacting aircraft would enter the freight elevator shaft and explode, sending a pressure wave and fireball down the shaft.

In another section Griffins states

Given these testimonies to explosions in the basement levels of the towers, it is interesting that Mark Loizeaux, head of Controlled Demolition, Inc., has been quoted as saying: “If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure.”9

But this is deceptive of Griffin. Mark Loizeaux is also on record stating that what happened at the WTC was NOT a demolition with explosives. And he's an expert.

Griffin says

Several FDNY members reported that they heard an explosion just before the south tower collapsed. ... snip ... These statements by Ober and Cruthers, indicating that there was a delay between the explosion and the beginning of the collapse,

Actually, there are reports of firemen hearing loud noises that sounded like explosions more than 10 minutes before the collapse. Odd sort of controlled demolition. Indeed, the structure was seen to be sagging and tilting many minutes before the collapse. Odd sort of planned demolition.

And who are Griffin's sources?

Christopher Bollyn,

A proven liar. An anti-government hack ... not a *journalist*. What he wrote about the seismic data in his articles was an outright LIE and not a single seismologist in the world backs his claims up, yet the seismic data is available to any seismologist in the world. The seismologists who he quotes in his articles are on record in technical papers and other venues saying JUST THE OPPOSITE of what Bollyn claimed they said.

Eric Hufschmid

This man doesn't believe man landed on the moon. He lies about the size of the hole in the Pentagon, the amount of debris at the Pentagon, the engine found at the Pentagon. He thinks that DU tipped missiles were used at the WTC and Pentagon.

Jim Hoffman

He's a software engineer. Forget the bombs ... he thinks giant super secret microwave beam projectors, installed in the basement of the towers, is what brought them down. I'll give some credit to Hoffman, though. He's right in saying the other CT'ers are wrong to claim the towers collapsed in 10 seconds and he says Bollyn promoted numerous claims that are not supported by any evidence.

Jeffrey King

MIT engineer. Yeah. An electrical engineer and molecular biologist ... who has been a medical doctor for the last 25 years.

Randy Lavello

Who claimed a fireman admitted 9-11 was an inside job. But the fireman says that's untrue and accuses Mr Lavello of slander. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=61418

Kevin Ryan

Oh yes ... the water treatment expert.

*************

And here's still another article by *Professor* Griffin that makes one wonder about his honesty.

**************

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20050523112738404

The 9/11 Commission Report: A 571-Page Lie

by Dr. David Ray Griffin

... snip ...

5. The omission of the fact that fire has never, before or after 9/11, caused steel-frame buildings to collapse (25).

Actually fire has caused many steel frame BUILDINGS to collapse in the past. That's why there are codes now to protect steel framed building from fire. And all the portions of the Windsor Tower (a skyscraper in Madrid) that depended solely on a steel frame for support did in fact collapse in a post 9/11 fire (no impact).

6. The omission of the fact that the fires in the Twin Towers were not very big, very hot, or very long-lasting compared with fires in several steel-frame buildings that did not collapse (25-26).

This is untrue. The best experts in the business using the best fire codes in existence have concluded that the fires were very hot and long lasting, and ultimately led to softening of steel members which caused the collapse. Which is why only one or two structural engineers in the world have come forward to agree with Griffin's assertion. And Griffin is also omitting the fact that where there have been fires in tall steel structures that did not collapse, the structures were built differently, the fires spread differently, the fires were actively fought by firefighters, and there were other mitigating factors.

7. The omission of the fact that, given the hypothesis that the collapses were caused by fire, the South Tower, which was struck later than the North Tower and also had smaller fires, should not have collapsed first (26).

Untrue. NIST has carefully explained why one tower collapsed before the other.

8. The omission of the fact that WTC 7 (which was not hit by an airplane and which had only small, localized fires) also collapsed---an occurrence that FEMA admitted it could not explain (26).

The building was in fact extensively damaged by falling debris from the towers and the fires were not localized or small. Plus, NIST did explain what FEMA did not.

9. The omission of the fact that the collapse of the Twin Towers (like that of Building 7) exemplified at least 10 features suggestive of controlled demolition (26-27).

Currently, only one demolition expert in the world agrees with Griffin that Building 7 was a controlled demolition. And he based his conclusion solely on viewing material hand picked by conspiracists. Nothing more. And ironically, that same individual is on the record saying that the collapse of WTC1 and WTC2 are definitely NOT controlled demolitions.

10. The claim that the core of each of the Twin Towers was "a hollow steel shaft"---a claim that denied the existence of the 47 massive steel columns that in reality constituted the core of each tower and that, given the "pancake theory" of the collapses, should have still been sticking up many hundreds of feet in the air (27-28).

But they were sticking up in the air after the collapses. This is proven by looking at the videos and photos from that day. Here, this video shows the core was still standing after the floors had pancaked:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1615521411849861778

These images also show that core was still sticking up many hundreds of feet in the air after the floors pancaked:

11. The omission of Larry Silverstein's statement that he and the fire department commander decided to "pull" Building 7 (28).

Silverstein did not say "pull building 7". He said pull it and a look at the context in which he said that should lead a reasonable person to conclude Silverstein was referring to the firefighting effort and the firefighters that were around the building.. Furthermore, demolition experts (at http://ImplosionWorld.com, for instance) say the "pull" terminology is not used in the way alleged by Griffin.

12. The omission of the fact that the steel from the WTC buildings was quickly removed from the crime scene and shipped overseas before it could be analyzed for evidence of explosives (30).

Numerous structural engineers, FBI agents and countless others had access to the site and the steel before it was removed. Many pieces of steel were eventually saved.

17. The omission of any discussion of whether the damage done to the Pentagon was consistent with the impact of a Boeing 757 going several hundred miles per hour (34).

All the structural engineers in the world seem to think it was.

18. The omission of the fact that there are photos showing that the west wing's façade did not collapse until 30 minutes after the strike and also that the entrance hole appears too small for a Boeing 757 to have entered (34).

Untrue. The entrance hole is large enough to accommodate everything but the wing tips and the tail of the plane. This is clear from photos to the left and right of the main impact hole:

And here is a fine animation which shows how the damage to the Pentagon is completely consistent with the impact of a 757.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21568_The_Pentagon_Attack_Simulation&only

19. The omission of all testimony that has been used to cast doubt on whether remains of a Boeing 757 were visible either inside or outside the Pentagon (34-36).

The portions of the plane not containing fuel or much mass shattered with the remains strewn in front of the Pentagon as seen in photo after photo. The above animation shows images of many of these pieces. There are also photos of debris both inside and outside the Pentagon that could only come from a 757. Numerous people familiar with such jets toured the site ... including members of 757 crews. They ALL say what they saw is consistent with Flight 77 hitting the building.

22. The omission of Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld's reference to "the missile [used] to damage [the Pentagon]" (39).

If Griffin thinks a missile was used, could he tell us what missile would cause damage like that seen? Remember, there was hole in the Pentagon about 90 feet wide. Columns on the right side were broken and bent towards the left. There was a winged shape hole on both sides of the central impact site.

And actually, here is Rumsfeld's full quote based on what Parade magazine initially said he said: http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2001/t11182001_t1012pm.html "Here we're talking about plastic knives and using an American Airlines flight filed with our citizens, and the missile to damage this building and similar (inaudible) that damaged the World Trade Center."

But not everyone agreed. http://frustratingfraud.blogspot.com/2006/11/rumsfelds-missile-admission.html "Problems with the audio transcription are evident or else there wouldn't be a "similar (inaudible)" involved. So I zoomed in on the second “and” that created the impression of two separate objects and tried replacing it with the similar sounding “as” and got “using an American Airlines flight filed with our citizens AS the missile to damage this building.” This makes the whole statement make more sense, and is exactly what the government has always said."

In fact, Parade admitted in September 2004 that "a transcription error led to the confusion, but conspiracy theorists latched onto Rumsfeld's supposed admission and spread it over the Internet."

*******************

Given all the above, one wonders why the thread's article places so much faith in Griffin as an *expert* source.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-10   22:35:36 ET  (5 images) Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: BeAChooser (#33)

PANCAKING! Ha, ha. You need to get some new material BAC. NIST has backed away and said the towers did not pancake. As a matter of fact, the NIST report does not explain the dynamic collapse of the towers. NIST stops at what it calls, "poised for global gravity collapse."

Very strange indeed.

There was only one elevator shaft that ran the entire vertical building. The elevator itself sealed the shaft.

All other elevators were staggard and sealed off at each mechanical floor. The towers were 3 buildings in one. Each completely sealed and independent of the next section.

Eyewitness accounts have the middle elevators having extensive damage coming from the bottom and the basement. The problem with the pressure wave/fireball theory is the lower, middle elevators only ran the bottom 27 floors.

Very strange indeed.

Cascading and pooling jet fuel coming from 1000 feet above, is going to destroy the lobby and multiple sub-basements, machine shops, giant lift presses, parking garages? According to NIST, there was only around 4500 gals available. A pressure wave isn't going to blow out concrete 5-7 basements down.

There was only one stairwell that ran the whole height of the towers. Where was this fireball blowing out the stairwells and doors? Where was all the dark smoke from the jet fuel fireball?

Very strange indeed.

Why don't you ccp the account of a firefighter who was on the lower floors of the towers, checking for employees, and found about every 3 floors that the doors leading to the office areas were crumpled and damage coming from the inside. When he pried open one of the office doors, he found extensive damage, with a "white smoke event", with a covering of light dust and debris. No fire, no dark smoke.

Very strange indeed.

You are right, 0.3% of the steel was handpicked by FEMA/NIST, around 240 pieces and sections. These section were, according to FEMA/NIST, from the fire and impact zones.

FEMA actually had some WTC 7 steel and it was tested. The steel was found to have sulphaded, eutectic formations. The structual steel was turned to swiss cheese and was completely evaporated.

It takes around 5100 degress to evapoate structual steel. Very strong diesel fuel, I guess.

Very strange indeed.

Before 911, no structual steel skyscaper has completely collasped from fire and or damage. The Madrid fire burned 20 times longer and burned at gas temps of over 2000 degrees.

No primary structual steel vertical girder has ever failed due to fire. There has been localized failure of horizontal steel girders that have resulted in localized failure and collapse. This would result in the primary girders collapsing also because of no box support. Just like in the case of Madrid.

Seriously, you need to get some new material. I seen all your stuff from LP. I won't continue long with you. Just enough to give you a good beatdown.

Kamala  posted on  2007-02-11   7:51:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Kamala, ALL (#36)

NIST has backed away and said the towers did not pancake.

***********

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

"Some 200 technical experts—including about 85 career NIST experts and 125 leading experts from the private sector and academia—reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations of the sequence of events that occurred from the moment the aircraft struck the towers until they began to collapse.

Based on this comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius) significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers. Both photographic and video evidence—as well as accounts from the New York Police Department aviation unit during a half-hour period prior to collapse—support this sequence for each tower.

NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.

NIST’s findings also do not support the “controlled demolition” theory since there is conclusive evidence that:

* the collapse was initiated in the impact and fire floors of the WTC towers and nowhere else, and;

* the time it took for the collapse to initiate (56 minutes for WTC 2 and 102 minutes for WTC 1) was dictated by (1) the extent of damage caused by the aircraft impact, and (2) the time it took for the fires to reach critical locations and weaken the structure to the point that the towers could not resist the tremendous energy released by the downward movement of the massive top section of the building at and above the fire and impact floors.

Video evidence also showed unambiguously that the collapse progressed from the top to the bottom, and there was no evidence (collected by NIST, or by the New York Police Department, the Port Authority Police Department or the Fire Department of New York) of any blast or explosions in the region below the impact and fire floors as the top building sections (including and above the 98th floor in WTC 1 and the 82nd floor in WTC 2) began their downward movement upon collapse initiation.

In summary, NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to Sept. 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly show that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward until the dust clouds obscured the view."

*****************

FEMA actually had some WTC 7 steel and it was tested. The steel was found to have sulphaded, eutectic formations. The structual steel was turned to swiss cheese and was completely evaporated. It takes around 5100 degress to evapoate structual steel.

*****************

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Biederman/Biederman-0112.html

An Initial Microstructural Analysis of A36 Steel from WTC Building 7

by J.R. Barnett, R.R. Biederman, and R.D. Sisson, Jr.

A section of an A36 wide flange beam retrieved from the collapsed World Trade Center Building 7 was examined to determine changes in the steel microstructure as a result of the terrorist attack on September 11, 2001. This building was not one of the original buildings attacked but it indirectly suffered severe damage and eventually collapsed. While the exact location of this beam could not be determined, the unexpected erosion of the steel found in this beam warranted a study of microstructural changes that occurred in this steel. Examination of other sections in this beam is underway.

ANALYSIS

Rapid deterioration of the steel was a result of heating with oxidation in combination with intergranular melting due to the presence of sulfur. The formation of the eutectic mixture of iron oxide and iron sulfide lowers the temperature at which liquid can form in this steel. This strongly suggests that the temperatures in this region of the steel beam approached ~1,000ºC, forming the eutectic liquid by a process similar to making a “blacksmith’s weld” in a hand forge.

... snip ...

J.R. Barnett is a professor of fire protection engineering, and R.R. Biederman and R.D. Sisson, Jr. are professors of materials science and engineering, at Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, Massachusetts, 01609.

*************

http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/steel.html

The "Deep Mystery" of Melted Steel

There is no indication that any of the fires in the World Trade Center buildings were hot enough to melt the steel framework. Jonathan Barnett, professor of fire protection engineering, has repeatedly reminded the public that steel--which has a melting point of 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit--may weaken and bend, but does not melt during an ordinary office fire. Yet metallurgical studies on WTC steel brought back to WPI reveal that a novel phenomenon--called a eutectic reaction--occurred at the surface, causing intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese.

Materials science professors Ronald R. Biederman and Richard D. Sisson Jr. confirmed the presence of eutectic formations by examining steel samples under optical and scanning electron microscopes. A preliminary report was published in JOM, the journal of the Minerals, Metals & Materials Society. A more detailed analysis comprises Appendix C of the FEMA report. The New York Times called these findings "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation." The significance of the work on a sample from Building 7 and a structural column from one of the twin towers becomes apparent only when one sees these heavy chunks of damaged metal.

A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes--some larger than a silver dollar--let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes.

A eutectic compound is a mixture of two or more substances that melts at the lowest temperature of any mixture of its components. Blacksmiths took advantage of this property by welding over fires of sulfur-rich charcoal, which lowers the melting point of iron. In the World Trade Center fire, the presence of oxygen, sulfur and heat caused iron oxide and iron sulfide to form at the surface of structural steel members. This liquid slag corroded through intergranular channels into the body of the metal, causing severe erosion and a loss of structural integrity.

"The important questions," says Biederman, "are how much sulfur do you need, and where did it come from? The answer could be as simple--and this is scary- as acid rain."

Have environmental pollutants increased the potential for eutectic reactions? "We may have just the inherent conditions in the atmosphere so that a lot of water on a burning building will form sulfuric acid, hydrogen sulfide or hydroxides, and start the eutectic process as the steel heats up," Biederman says. He notes that the sulfur could also have come from contents of the burning buildings, such as rubber or plastics. Another possible culprit is ocean salts, such as sodium sulfate, which is known to catalyze sulfidation reactions on turbine blades of jet engines. "All of these things have to be explored," he says.

From a building-safety point of view, the critical question is: Did the eutectic mixture form before the buildings collapsed, or later, as the remains smoldered on the ground. "We have no idea," admits Sisson. "To answer that, we would need to recreate those fires in the FPE labs, and burn fresh steel of known composition for the right time period, with the right environment." He hopes to have the opportunity to collaborate on thermodynamically controlled studies, and to observe the effects of adding sulfur, copper and other elements. The most important lesson, Sisson and Biederman stress, is that fail-safe sprinkler systems are essential to prevent steel from reaching even 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, because phase changes at the 1,300-degree mark compromise a structure's load-bearing capacity.

The FEMA report calls for further metallurgic investigations, and Barnett, Biederman and Sisson hope that WPI will obtain NIST funding and access to more samples. They are continuing their microscopic studies on the samples prepared by graduate student Jeremy Bernier and Marco Fontecchio, the 2001–02 Helen E. Stoddard Materials Science and Engineering Fellow. (Next year's Stoddard Fellow, Erin Sullivan, will take up this work as part of her graduate studies.) Publication of their results may clear up some mysteries that have confounded the scientific community.

-JKM

*************

Before 911, no structual steel skyscaper has completely collasped from fire and or damage.

Before 911, no structural steel skyscraper was subjected to a high speed impact by a commercial jet loaded with fuel.

The Madrid fire burned 20 times longer and burned at gas temps of over 2000 degrees.

I'd like to see your backup for that 2000 degree temperature claim but in any case, all portions of the Windsor (Madrid) tower that relied solely on a steel frame did in fact collapsed.

No primary structual steel vertical girder has ever failed due to fire. There has been localized failure of horizontal steel girders that have resulted in localized failure and collapse. This would result in the primary girders collapsing also because of no box support. Just like in the case of Madrid.

Again, all portions of the Windsor (Madrid) tower that relied solely on a steel frame collapsed. The reason the Windsor tower as a whole didn't collapse is that it had a reinforced concrete core and the frame from the 17 floor on down was also reinforced concrete.

"I was real close to Building 7 when it fell down... That didn't sound like just a building falling down to me while I was running away from it. There's a lot of eyewitness testimony down there of hearing explosions. [..] and the whole time you're hearing "boom, boom, boom, boom, boom." I think I know an explosion when I hear it... — Former NYC Police Officer and 9/11 Rescue Worker Craig Bartmer

"Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o'clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o'clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse." — Deputy Chief Peter Hayden, Division 1 - 33 years.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-11   17:54:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: BeAChooser (#40)

And let's get our facts straight. The Towers were NOT designed to withstand this sized plane impacting the towers at velocity they did

Not so sure youre right on this one..

Hmm and have you forgotten the Empire State Building withstood THIS? :P

Zipporah  posted on  2007-02-11   18:00:39 ET  (1 image) Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Zipporah (#41)

Hmm and have you forgotten the Empire State Building withstood THIS? :P

...and this...

:P

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2007-02-11   18:05:47 ET  (1 image) Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#42)

Hm a B52.. ? hole 18 X 20 feet.. well ya know when that structure was built I'd venture to guess that the technology wasnt as advanced as when the WTC blgs were built..

Zipporah  posted on  2007-02-11   18:07:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Zipporah (#43)

Hm a B52.. ? hole 18 X 20 feet.. well ya know when that structure was built I'd venture to guess that the technology wasnt as advanced as when the WTC blgs were built..

Yeah... By the time the WTC Towers were built in the '60's and '70's, folks had forgotten about all that air traffic around NY (I hardly noticed it myself growing up there...), and it didn't occur to them that someone might either purposely or by accident fly a plane into a super-tall building at top speed... So they blithely designed the Twin Towers as though that could never happen...

Of course... as we now know.... that obliviousness had tragic consequences on 9/11....

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2007-02-11   18:12:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#44)

So they blithely designed the Twin Towers as though that could never happen...

Hmm I do recall though seeing a video of one of the engineers or designers of the WTC saying that they had designed the bldgs to withstand an impact from a plane.. let me see if I can locate it. ;)

Zipporah  posted on  2007-02-11   18:18:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Zipporah (#45)

So they blithely designed the Twin Towers as though that could never happen...

Hmm I do recall though seeing a video of one of the engineers or designers of the WTC saying that they had designed the bldgs to withstand an impact from a plane.. let me see if I can locate it. ;)

Could you tell I was being a smartass in that last post? :P

Seriously though, despite the probability that the "choosers" here will dismiss it as a "conspiracy site," here is a link to a good summary (with cross-referencing) of the design features of the WTC Towers which were indeed intended to provide the structual integrity and strength to withstand and survive just such an event as 9/11.

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2007-02-11   18:38:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#48)

Now this is interesting from your link:

"According to the calculations of engineers who worked on the Towers' design, all the columns on one side of a Tower could be cut, as well as the two corners and some of the columns on each adjacent side, and the building would still be strong enough to withstand a 100-mile-per-hour wind. 7 Also, John Skilling is cited by the Engineering News Record for the claim that "live loads on these [perimeter] columns can be increased more than 2000% before failure occurs."

Zipporah  posted on  2007-02-11   18:48:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Zipporah (#50)

There ya go Zip. Great quote. I've used it before. The towers could lose around 25%-30% of its core girders or perimeter girders.

In NISTs own report, the towers primary girders only saw 14% severe damage. You could lose around 60 perimeter girders and it would stand. It could see severe damage to around 15 core girders an still support the building.

The steel used for the core was rated at 42,000psi and the outer girders at 100,000psi. Super strong stuff.

The hat truss design at the top of the towers was the key to transfering the stresses from the inner to the outer girders.

Good work.

Kamala  posted on  2007-02-11   19:00:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Kamala (#52)

The steel used for the core was rated at 42,000psi and the outer girders at 100,000psi. Super strong stuff.

Yes, and what seems to escape the shills like BAC is this rating is for tensile strength - a pulling measurement - rather than a compaction measurement...

Like I've said before, a 200 lb man can stand on an empty beer can without crushing it. Of course the beer can can't be dented, but still - we're talking about mighty thin aluminum... Compare the strength of that can to even a tin can - (it's VERY easy to crush a beer can by hand, but try to do it to a soup can)... AND we're still talking about mighty thin material...

Now compare those to the metal used in the Trade Center Buildings....

Jesus Christ - what has happened to common sense in this country??? I think it completely left this country concurrently with the gold standard...

innieway  posted on  2007-02-12   9:55:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: innieway, ALL (#60)

Yes, and what seems to escape the shills like BAC is this rating is for tensile strength - a pulling measurement - rather than a compaction measurement...

Curious. Are you an expert in buckling phenomena too? ROTFLOL!

And by the way, the proper term is compression, not compaction. Compaction is what one does to soil foundations.

Like I've said before, a 200 lb man can stand on an empty beer can without crushing it.

But can a 200 lb man drop a foot onto a empty beer can without crushing it? That's more the situation that existed at the WTC towers.

Now compare those to the metal used in the Trade Center Buildings....

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-12   21:45:55 ET  (1 image) Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: BeAChooser (#64)

Curious. Are you an expert in buckling phenomena too? ROTFLOL!

I have on more than one occasion in my construction experience seen the results of fire in structures. One was in the bleach plant part of a paper mill. One of the washers (made of fiberglass) caught on fire, and a line carrying 50% chlorine (also made of fiberglass) broke - making it nearly impossible to attempt to fight the fire. In fact several workers were hospitalized from being caught in the fumes of the chlorine. The decision was made to allow the fire to burn itself out. The fire spread to the other washers, and in total burned for over 3 hours.

When the crew I was on went in to repair the damage, I was amazed at the damage. The horizontal beams above the fire had buckled downward probably 4 feet in the center. HOWEVER, as they buckled THEY ALSO STRETCHED. The vertical columns they were attached to barely even pulled out of plumb, and were a long way from total failure. The building DID NOT COLLAPSE, and even though the floors above the fire had apparently lost most of their horizontal support, they did not even attempt to collapse down into the lower floors...

Heat rises. Fires spread upward much more readily than downward. In the case of the towers there was a great deal more building BELOW the impact/fire zone than above it. According to the laws of inertia, a body at rest tends to remain at rest. This is why in a traffic pile-up on an icy road the chain-reaction of a vehicle impacting the one in front of it driving it into the next one etc dies out. With each impact, some energy is absorbed causing each link in the chain to have less force than the one that hit it. This phenomena would have applied in a pancake collapse, as not every beam and column in every floor below the impact site was compromised. Each floor was designed to be able to carry the weight of everything above it. While a "dropping" of the weight above it may cause a failure of that floor, that floor would at least absorb some of the energy causing the next impact to have less velocity which would result in the next impact being able to absorb even more of the energy. The added weight would be much less a factor than velocity as the next floor was already designed for the weight. With the pancaking effect losing some of it's momentum every 12 feet or so, and having to travel over 800 feet, it would die out long before hitting the ground - or at the very least take more time than near free-fall speed which WAS the case of each of the 9/11 collapses.

    But can a 200 lb man drop a foot onto a empty beer can without crushing it? That's more the situation that existed at the WTC towers.

The point is that as thin and weak as aluminum is compared to steel (try tromping that soup can and see how much you collapse it), when you are talking about compression ( And by the way, the proper term is compression, not compaction - you're right, my bad) you're talking about numbers which make tensile strength numbers pale by comparison. Then when you're talking about that steel thickness being measured in inches as opposed to thousandths of inches, those numbers go up exponentially...

Curious, just WHAT is your area of "expertise"????? How many structures have you designed from scratch????? How much concrete have you mixed and poured????? How many structures have you erected????? How many welds have you made????? How many fire-damaged buildings have you been involved in the repair of????? How many steel cutting devices have you used, and how much have you used them????? I work with steel everyday, and I have done each of these things enough to be competent at it.....

Common sense is very uncommon. Common sense is in spite of, not as a result of education. Common sense is instinct, and enough is genius. Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he need more of it than he already has. Common sense is the knack of seeing things as they are, and doing things as they ought to be done. - Rudyard Kipling

innieway  posted on  2007-02-13   14:18:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: innieway, ALL (#95)

I have on more than one occasion in my construction experience seen the results of fire in structures. One was in the bleach plant part of a paper mill. One of the washers (made of fiberglass) caught on fire, and a line carrying 50% chlorine (also made of fiberglass) broke - making it nearly impossible to attempt to fight the fire. In fact several workers were hospitalized from being caught in the fumes of the chlorine. The decision was made to allow the fire to burn itself out. The fire spread to the other washers, and in total burned for over 3 hours.

Well that would have to make you an expert in comparison to the tens of thousands of structural engineers who have studied years on topics like fire and structures, and the thousands who every day work directly on the analysis and design of structures to resist fire. What do they know ... (sarcasm)

While a "dropping" of the weight above it may cause a failure of that floor, that floor would at least absorb some of the energy causing the next impact to have less velocity which would result in the next impact being able to absorb even more of the energy. The added weight would be much less a factor than velocity as the next floor was already designed for the weight. With the pancaking effect losing some of it's momentum every 12 feet or so, and having to travel over 800 feet, it would die out long before hitting the ground - or at the very least take more time than near free-fall speed which WAS the case of each of the 9/11 collapses.

And what do they know about impact phenomena ... (sarcasm)

But I have question for you. If the mass in 20 stories (that above the first floor that failed), dropping one floor, could cause the next undamaged floor to fail ... why wouldn't the material in 21 floors (that above the first failed floor plus the material in that floor), dropping one floor (to the next unfailed floor), do the same thing? Just because some energy was absorbed in the first impact, doesn't mean the energy available for the second impact is smaller. In fact, it is now the energy of 21 floors of mass dropping a floor. Plus whatever energy was left over after collapsing the first floor. Why is this so hard to understand when you are such an expert?

when you are talking about compression ( And by the way, the proper term is compression, not compaction - you're right, my bad) you're talking about numbers which make tensile strength numbers pale by comparison.

ROTFLOL! Not when you are talking about steel.

The tensile and compressive strength of steel is generally about the same. Didn't you know this? Don't believe me? Here:

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/eng99/eng99164.htm "Steel is more or less a linear elastic material. Unlike concrete, which is much weaker in tension than in compression, steel theoretically responds the same way in either tension or compression."

But materials under compression can buckle, which may prevent them from realizing their full compressive strength. Steel is particularly vulnerable to this. Steel in compression can also fail at lower loads due to shear failure.

Curious, just WHAT is your area of "expertise"?????

Well I think based on your responses so far, I can tell what your's isn't.

I work with steel everyday, and I have done each of these things enough to be competent at it.....

And yet you still think steel in stronger in compression than tension? ROTFLOL!

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-13   15:03:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#156. To: BeAChooser (#105)

"Steel is more or less a linear elastic material. Unlike concrete, which is much weaker in tension than in compression, steel theoretically responds the same way in either tension or compression."

THEORETICALLY...

However, with enough applied force, steel and other metals will cease to behave elastically and begin to behave plastically. When a material is linearly elastic, its deformation, or strain, will be directly proportional to the applied force and it will return to its original shape when the force is removed. A plastic material, on the other hand, will permanently deform without breaking (think of taffy or perhaps the stringiness of melted mozzarella cheese on a pizza).

In real life, of course, there is no such thing as a perfectly elastic or plastic material. In the case of steel, structural engineers are concerned about the tensile strength in terms of both the ultimate strength and the yield strength. When a specimen reaches its yield strength, it will begin to stretch and transition from elastic to plastic behavior. As more force is applied, the steel will reach its ultimate tensile strength and break. Structural engineers take advantage of this property in their designs. In an extreme event, such as an earthquake or major structural failure, this plastic phase is useful because it allows the structure to sag and absorb extra loads.

From your link... Of course, it mentions immediately in the second paragraph 'real life' - something which theory sometimes just doesn't answer.

    Well that would have to make you an expert in comparison to the tens of thousands of structural engineers who have studied years on topics like fire and structures, and the thousands who every day work directly on the analysis and design of structures to resist fire. What do they know ... (sarcasm)

Hey - there's tens of thousands of doctors working hard everyday to cure cancer, but so far all they have is a treatment program with a 70% failure rate. Just because someone has a label of "expert" doesn't mean they're competent. And if you don't believe that go ask any one of the 7 million in American jails how competent their lawyer was (whether they were guilty or not)... BTW, did you know that we are now the largest "imprisoner" of people in the history of the world???? Land of the free you know.... Not that it has shit to do with this thread.

    Curious, just WHAT is your area of "expertise"?????

    Well I think based on your responses so far, I can tell what your's isn't.

You still haven't answered the question, nor the NORAD standdown.... At this point in the debate a personal attack just makes you look like a dumbass grasping at straws. The only responses I've given so far is what I've learned through experience, NOT what I've been told by others.

    And yet you still think steel in stronger in compression than tension? ROTFLOL!

EVERYTHING is stronger in compression than in tension - even air. Well that is if you're looking at fact rather than theory... I see steel everyday in my welding shop that gets pulled in two by extreme forces. Invariably, it gives first on the "pull" or tension side of the strain (which may then tear apart) as opposed to the "crush" or compression side (which may happen as a result of giving first on the tension side)... Don't believe it???? Take 2 pairs of pliers and bend a piece of wire in as sharp of a 90% angle as you possibly can. Observe the effect. Did the inside radius of the bend "compress" OR did the outside radius of the bend stretch?????? That is life experience, and knowing what happens because you've witnessed it yourself. NOT relying on heresay bullshit or what it "should do in theory".

OH, and yes, even though there is added mass in the pancake collapse theory with each new floor adding it's mass to the aggregate, the resistance force of the next floor would slow it down... Bottom line, even at 15 seconds (which is a stretch) there had to be practically no resistance from the lower 2/3 of the tower when unopposed (except for air) freefall speed would have been in the 11 second range for that distance.....

innieway  posted on  2007-02-14   5:48:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: innieway, ALL (#156)

However, with enough applied force, steel and other metals will cease to behave elastically and begin to behave plastically. ... snip ... In real life, of course, there is no such thing as a perfectly elastic or plastic material. In the case of steel, structural engineers are concerned about the tensile strength in terms of both the ultimate strength and the yield strength. When a specimen reaches its yield strength, it will begin to stretch and transition from elastic to plastic behavior. As more force is applied, the steel will reach its ultimate tensile strength and break. Structural engineers take advantage of this property in their designs. In an extreme event, such as an earthquake or major structural failure, this plastic phase is useful because it allows the structure to sag and absorb extra loads.

Now you are going to give us a lesson in plasticity?

Well tell us, oh *expert*, is there a difference in the stress at which steel yields in compression versus tension?

I have an idea. Why don't you tell us all about dynamic load factors.

Tell us what the impact of strain rate is on ultimate limit of steel.

Tell us all about buckling and its affect during compression.

We are dying to hear your words of wisdom, since you apparently consider yourself more "competent" than the thousands and thousands and thousands of professionals with actual education and experience in structural engineering, demolition, steel, fire, seismology and macro-world physics who seem comfortable with the notion that impact and fire brought down the towers.

You still haven't answered the question

I don't intend to answer your question. I'm content to rely on the expertise of the tens of thousands of professionals around the world who have designed and built the world we live in and all its marvels. Unlike you, I'm not claiming expertise.

At this point in the debate a personal attack just makes you look like a dumbass grasping at straws.

I have made no personal attack. I've simply noted that you claimed expertise about steel but didn't seem to realize that steel has the same modulus of elasticity and yield strength in compression and tension. Curious...

The only responses I've given so far is what I've learned through experience, NOT what I've been told by others.

So *book learning* is for *incompetents*?

EVERYTHING is stronger in compression than in tension - even air.

In the case of a steel column, you are wrong. Here is a challenge for you. Take a pair of identical steel rods (say 1/2 an inch in diameter and a foot long) into your local university lab. Do a tensile test on one ... till it snaps. Plot the force/deflection curve and the deflection at which it fails. Now do a compression test on your second rod. Plot the force/deflection curve and note the deflection at which the experiment goes boom. Then come back and tell us your results.

OH, and yes, even though there is added mass in the pancake collapse theory with each new floor adding it's mass to the aggregate, the resistance force of the next floor would slow it down.

But the resistance of the next floor is no greater than the previous floor's resistance. And now an even greater mass has fallen the same distance as the previous mass fell to impact the first floor. Thus, there has to be even more kinetic energy in the aggregate mass than there was in the first impact. And that's without even adding in the residual velocity (energy) from the first impact. So you are simply wrong, innieway. Once the first floor collapsed, if the upper portion of the building wasn't completely stopped by the resistance of the next intact floor, nothing on earth was going to stop the collapse before it reached the ground. You don't know what you are talking about. Which is why you can't find ANY structural engineers who agree with you.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-14   13:39:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#177. To: beachooser, Critter, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#172)

Your "complexity cloudwork" isn't having much of an effect, BeOcho.

"If you can't blind 'em with brilliance - baffle 'em with bullshit."

You're at least good in the attempt - but this isn't your 'condidtioned' elPee crowd.

A simple stopwatch attests to the only possible truth - controlled demolition; you can't change that with the absolute sum of your limp-wristed rationalizations.

I hear the Iranian invasion is getting close - is that the discussion/information that you're trying to dissuade, with the best remnants of your bullshit??

Goldi still loves you, BAC. (But you know that better than anyone.)

"Go home, BeOcho!"


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-02-14   13:54:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 177.

        There are no replies to Comment # 177.


End Trace Mode for Comment # 177.

TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest