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War, War, War
See other War, War, War Articles

Title: Four Unspeakable Truths
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/120404
Published: Mar 8, 2007
Author: Jacob Weisberg
Post Date: 2007-03-08 07:38:38 by leveller
Keywords: None
Views: 597
Comments: 96

What politicians won't admit about Iraq

When it comes to Iraq, there are two kinds of presidential candidates. The disciplined ones, like Hillary Clinton, carefully avoid acknowledging reality. The more candid, like John McCain and Barack Obama, sometimes blurt out the truth, but quickly apologize.

For many presidential aspirants, the first unspeakable truth is simply that the war was a mistake. This issue came to a head recently with Hillary Clinton's obstinate refusal to acknowledge that voting to give President Bush the authority to invade Iraq was the wrong thing to do. Though fellow Democrats John Edwards and Christopher Dodd have managed to say they erred in voting for the 2002 war resolution, Clinton is joined by Joe Biden and a full roster of Republicans in her inability to disgorge the M-word. Perhaps most absurdly, Chuck Hagel has called Bush's 21,500-troop "surge" the biggest blunder since Vietnam without ever saying that the war itself was the big blunder and that he favored it.

Reasons for refusing to admit that the war itself was a mistake are surprisingly similar across party lines. It is seldom easy to admit you were wrong—so let me repeat what I first acknowledged in Slate in January 2004, that I am sorry to have given even qualified support to the war. But what is awkward for columnists is nearly impossible for self-justifying politicians, who resist acknowledging error at a glandular level. Specific political calculations help to explain their individual decisions. Hillary, for instance, worries that confessing her failure will make it easier for hawks to savage her if she gets the nomination. But at bottom, the impulse is always the same. Politicians are stubborn, afraid of looking weak, and fearful that any admission of error will be cast as flip-flopping and inconsistency.

A second truth universally unacknowledged is that American soldiers being killed, grotesquely maimed, and then treated like whining freeloaders at Walter Reed Hospital are victims as much as "heroes." John Kerry was the first to violate this taboo when he was still a potential candidate last year. Kerry appeared to tell a group of California college students that it sucks to go and fight in Iraq. A variety of conservative goons instantly denounced Kerry for disrespecting the troops. An advanced sufferer of Senatorial Infallibility Syndrome, Kerry resisted retracting his comment for a while, but eventually regretted what he called a "botched joke" about President Bush.

Lost in the debate about whether Kerry meant what came out of his mouth was the fact that what he said was largely true. Americans who attend college and have good employment options after graduation are unlikely to sign up for free tours of the Sunni Triangle. People join the military for a variety of reasons, of course, but since the Iraq war turned ugly, the all-volunteer Army has been lowering educational standards, raising enlistment bonuses, and looking past criminal records. The lack of better choices is a larger and larger factor in the choice of military service. Our troops in Iraq may not see themselves as cannon fodder or victims of presidential misjudgments, but that doesn't mean they're not.

Reality No. 3, closely related to No. 2 and following directly from No. 1, is that the American lives lost in Iraq have been lives wasted. Barack Obama crossed this boundary on his first trip to Iowa as an announced candidate when he declared at a rally, "We ended up launching a war that should have never been authorized and should have never been waged and to which we have now spent $400 billion and have seen over 3,000 lives of the bravest young Americans wasted." With lightning speed, Obama said he had misspoken and apologized to military families.

John McCain used the same proscribed term when he announced his candidacy on Late Night With David Letterman last week. "We've wasted a lot of our most precious treasure, which is American lives." This was a strange admission, given McCain's advocacy of a surge bigger than Bush's. In any case, McCain followed Obama by promptly regretting his choice of words. (The patriotically correct term for losing parts of your body in a pointless war in Mesopotamia is, of course, "sacrifice.") These episodes all followed Kinsley's law of gaffes. The mistake Kerry, Obama, and McCain made was telling the truth before retreating to the approved banality and euphemism

A fourth and final near-certainty, which is in some ways the hardest for politicians to admit, is that America is losing or has already lost the Iraq war. The United States is the strongest nation in the history of the world and does not think of itself as coming in second in two-way contests. When it does so, it is slow to accept that it has been beaten. American political and military leaders were reluctant to acknowledge or utter that they had miscalculated and wasted tens of thousands of lives in Vietnam, many of them after failure and withdrawal were assured. Even today, American politicians tend not to describe Vietnam as a straightforward defeat. Something similar is happening in Iraq, where the most that leaders typically say is that we "risk" losing and must not do so.

Democrats avoid the truth about the tragedy in Iraq for fear of being labeled unpatriotic or unsupportive of the troops. Republicans avoid it for fear of being blamed for the disaster or losing defense and patriotism as cards to play against Democrats. Politicians on both sides believe that acknowledging the unpleasant truth will weaken them and undermine those still attempting to persevere on our behalf. But nations and individuals do not grow weaker by confronting the truth. They grow weaker by avoiding it and coming to believe their own evasions.

http://www.slate.com/id/2161385/fr/rss/

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#1. To: leveller (#0)

It is seldom easy to admit you were wrong—so let me repeat what I first acknowledged in Slate in January 2004, that I am sorry to have given even qualified support to the war. But what is awkward for columnists is nearly impossible for self-justifying politicians, who resist acknowledging error at a glandular level.

But nations and individuals do not grow weaker by confronting the truth. They grow weaker by avoiding it and coming to believe their own evasions.

Jacob Weisberg lost me in this article. Talk about someone being evasive and not confronting truth about the tragic consequences of his and other MSM journalists' war mongering. He thinks he can explain away his bloody hands with "I am sorry to have given even qualified support to the war." And worse, he believes politicians could also gain absolution with admission of error.

A war built on lies is not simply "a mistake" to explain away with a breezy "I'm sorry."

I think Mr. Jacob Weisberg and the other war mongers should be in shackles today and their family's assets should be cleared out to the last dime and assigned to the Iraqi peoples.

Here's some of Jacob Weisberg's comments to attest to his great "awakening" about the Iraq War - NOT. All Jacob is pissed about is that the illegal war of lies was not handled more competently so the ratio of costs benefits was more favorable - not that he personally expended any "costs" but that's beside the point. As a side note, Jacob Weisberg - like most neocons - has a face that could stop a train - ugly face, ugly heart.

http://www.busybusybusy. com/b3_arc_04_0112.shtml

"I should have realized that the administration's mendacity and incompetence rendered it unfit to manage the transformation of Iraq, but was blinded by enthusiasm for Saddam Hussein's accelerated demise."

"The question here is whether our early pro-war stance was correct given the predictable ratio of costs to benefits - a relevant calculation for a non- defensive war - and I'm not seeing a strong case for that at this point."

"I supported the war despite clear indications the Bush administration would bungle the job, but even though little has happened since that wasn't predictable then, I'm now wondering whether it was worth the cost. "

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-08   9:43:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: leveller (#0)

These episodes all followed Kinsley's law of gaffes. The mistake Kerry, Obama, and McCain made was telling the truth before retreating to the approved banality and euphemism

I agree with this part for sure.

It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-03-08   11:32:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: scrapper2 (#1)

I think Mr. Jacob Weisberg and the other war mongers should be in shackles today and their family's assets should be cleared out to the last dime and assigned to the Iraqi peoples.

Well, then, we can expect him to strike you from his jury panel!

leveller  posted on  2007-03-08   13:47:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: scrapper2 (#1)

"I should have realized that the administration's mendacity and incompetence rendered it unfit to manage the transformation of Iraq, but was blinded by enthusiasm for Saddam Hussein's accelerated demise."

"The question here is whether our early pro-war stance was correct given the predictable ratio of costs to benefits - a relevant calculation for a non- defensive war - and I'm not seeing a strong case for that at this point."

"I supported the war despite clear indications the Bush administration would bungle the job, but even though little has happened since that wasn't predictable then, I'm now wondering whether it was worth the cost. "

Good stuff. There is something fundamentally wrong with that old saying, "the devil is in the details." Most often it's not. Most often the devil is in the plan itself.

leveller  posted on  2007-03-08   13:49:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: leveller, ALL (#0)

American political and military leaders were reluctant to acknowledge or utter that they had miscalculated and wasted tens of thousands of lives in Vietnam, many of them after failure and withdrawal were assured.

The American left (media and anti-war movement) are unable to acknowledge that they played a key role in that defeat. Because they dishonestly portrayed the results of the Tet offensive in 1968 as a defeat rather than the immense victory it was. Even the North Vietnamese have ackknowledged this. But not the American left. And the media and anti-warriors have been doing the same thing since day one of the Iraq war. Turning victory into defeat. Congratulations...

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   14:03:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: BeAChooser, Burkeman1 (#5) (Edited)

The American left (media and anti-war movement) are unable to acknowledge that they played a key role in that defeat. Because they dishonestly portrayed the results of the Tet offensive in 1968 as a defeat rather than the immense victory it was. Even the North Vietnamese have ackknowledged this. But not the American left. And the media and anti-warriors have been doing the same thing since day one of the Iraq war. Turning victory into defeat. Congratulations...

Oye vay. And why am I not surprised by your BOT cookie cutter reponse.

Uh huh - the Vietnam War was lost by the librul media and anti-war movement and if only those 2 thingies did not exist, we would have whooped the North Vietnamese asses and their communist Chinese benefactors' asses something fierce. We would have had to genocide most of Vietnam to get this pyrrhic victory and we would have had 200,000 American soldier body bags come home, but victory was at hand if only we had stayed loooonger.

And here's the rub, by now we'd be engaging in free trade with a thriving democracy if it weren't for the librul press and anti-war groups - Ooops. We are engaging in free trade with Vietnam now and our gov't could care less whether the Vietnamese gov't is comprised of communists or pink purple eaters. But it mattered 40 years ago because of...fill in the blanks, BAC...I'll give you a hint...the missing words have the initials, M-I-C.

Get a clue, BAC - an ill begotten war ( faux Gulf of Tonkin incident)has bad results. Similarly it applies to the Iraq War. Or here's something simpler for your mind to ponder as it applies to our various wars for lies - "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."

P.S. Have you ever fought in a war apart from a war of words in cyberspace, BAC?

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-08   14:19:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: scrapper2 (#6)

The US "Defeat" in Vietnam (actually a win for the American people in that the empire wasn't expanded) is one of the few achievements of the "Left" in this country. It didn't last though- as DC was back to waging elective wars against hapless weakling countries within a decade.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-08   14:45:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: scrapper2, ALL (#6)

We would have had to genocide most of Vietnam to get this pyrrhic victory and we would have had 200,000 American soldier body bags come home

Apparently you are unaware of the fact that the North Vietnamese commander who accepted the surrender of South Vietnam is on record saying that following Tet, General Giap was ready to sue for peace. He said we could have won the war at that point if we'd only cut the Ho Chi Minh trail and bombed the North. At that point they thought the war was lost. But then they saw the way the American media was presenting Tet, saw the actions of the anti-war movement and saw a weak-willed democRAT president. And knew they only had to wait ... that the American media and anti-war movement would accomplish what they'd been unable to accomplish.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   14:46:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: beachooser (#8)

Apparently you are unaware of the fact that the North Vietnamese commander who accepted the surrender of South Vietnam is on record saying that following Tet, General Giap was ready to sue for peace. He said we could have won the war at that point if we'd only cut the Ho Chi Minh trail and bombed the North. At that point they thought the war was lost. But then they saw the way the American media was presenting Tet, saw the actions of the anti-war movement and saw a weak-willed democRAT president. And knew they only had to wait ... that the American media and anti-war movement would accomplish what they'd been unable to accomplish.

The same profiteering U.S. leadership will be forced into a defeat in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Only this time, we'll be withdrawing from blatant War Crimes; no questions possible.

(That is your breed, BAC; the War Criminals!)

The "Texas Prayer" -

"Please God, just one more war; we won't squander the money, this time."


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-03-08   14:56:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: BeAChooser (#8)

The below site has the Wall Street Journal interview of Colonel Bui Tin on 3 August 1995. I think this is what you're referencing, since he's the guy who accepted the surrender. It's posted elsewhere also, this site was convenient. He doesn't say that they were ready to sue for terms, but it is an interesting interview.

http://www.viet- myths.net/buitin.htm

The important part is:

"Q: What about the results? A: Our losses were staggering and a complete surprise;. Giap later told me that Tet had been a military defeat, though we had gained the planned political advantages when Johnson agreed to negotiate and did not run for re-election. The second and third waves in May and September were, in retrospect, mistakes. Our forces in the South were nearly wiped out by all the fighting in 1968. It took us until 1971 to re-establish our presence, but we had to use North Vietnamese troops as local guerrillas. If the American forces had not begun to withdraw under Nixon in 1969, they could have punished us severely. We suffered badly in 1969 and 1970 as it was. "

Rivers of blood were spilled out over land that, in normal times, not even the poorest Arab would have worried his head over." Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

historian1944  posted on  2007-03-08   15:05:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: historian1944 (#10)

DC got their Victory in Vietnam and did pull out. Then the North invaded the South and the puppet government collapsed in two months and its multi billion dollar "highly trained" military equipped with the latest gizmos and technology disintergrated overnight- as the South regime was then- as it was always- an illegitimate puppet regime of a foreign power.

Here's a hint- the side that doesn't need foreign troops to prop them up - is always going to win.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-08   15:12:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: BeAChooser (#5)

The American left (media and anti-war movement) are unable to acknowledge that they played a key role in that defeat. Because they dishonestly portrayed the results of the Tet offensive in 1968 as a defeat rather than the immense victory it was. Even the North Vietnamese have ackknowledged this. But not the American left. And the media and anti-warriors have been doing the same thing since day one of the Iraq war. Turning victory into defeat. Congratulations...

Victory was always around the corner for the British, too. They won all the battles, and they could have won the war, had they only made up their mind to devote enough troops, and to lose enough troops, to kill all of the American colonists. Yet the radical whig Brits, such as James Burgh and Catharine Macaulay, and the Tories like Burke, who wrote and spoke out against the war with America, are recognized today as the best friends Britain had during that period.

If the American left engineered the defeat in Vietnam, then you owe them your thanks, for they temporarily halted the US government's expensive, wasteful, bloody, and illegal campaign in the far east, and gave us all some room to breathe before Americans forgot the real lessons of Vietnam, and got fooled again by another Texas President.

leveller  posted on  2007-03-08   15:27:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: leveller (#12)

Edmond Burke's record on the "colony troubles" was right every step of the way . . . but that didn't stop the ignorant morons who advanced Brtain down the path to first alienation from the colonies to outright rebellion and warfare from blaming him for being right. Burke pointed out the folly of the Crown's actions every step of the way- from the needless acts of taxation in the 1760's to absolutely counter productive and gratuitous insulting measures taken in response to mild resistance to such acts to denouncing the folly of the war itself (which he said was "unwinnable" in any practical sense in that even if the Crown "won" it would only serve to lay the foundation for later independence as the hatred engendered in achieving such a "victory" could never be overcome.)

It's funny- but the same morons who lead the Crown into war against her colonies and who had been wrong every step of the way had the nerve to call Burke a "traitor" for being right.

By the way- given that the strongest and richest superpower of its time- with the largest navy the world had ever seen- with a population about 20 times that of colonial America was unable to "Win" against only a third of that population that supported Independence- how comical is it to think that the Japs or the Germans were going to invade and "take over" an America of 180 million strong and the most industrialized land mass in the world in 1941?

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-08   15:44:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: BeAChooser (#5)

What kind of victory are we winning in Iraq?

Which side are we even fighting for?

Iraq and Vietnam are not really comparable. In Vietnam we knew who the enemy was and knew who we were fighting for, the South Vietnamese. In Iraq the enemy is vaguely defined as the "terrorists" and we are vaguely fighting for the "good" guys, whoever they are. Let's face it, we are there based on lies to further personal self interests of those in the Bush Administration, namely Dick Cheney and his interests in Haliburton.

God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]

RickyJ  posted on  2007-03-08   15:48:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: RickyJ (#14) (Edited)

It's larger than just Bush and Cheney's bank accounts. It is the bank accounts of thousands and thousands of people and their hangers on . . . the bank accounts of the Houses of powerful American families that we are talking about. It is also a bureaucratic juggernaught that demands something to do- like wage war at all times. We have a HUGE government apparat that exists for soeley the puropose of waging elective foreign wars and administration of the aftermath. And not just bureaucratic- but also in our "media" and "think tanks". An entire parasitical intellectual class has been hired by these interests to gloss over what is rank self interest and greed and murder and theft with high falutin lies about spreading "Democracy" and "global markets" and "human rights". All crap to mask what is basically a policy of never ending war motivated soley by greed and self interest. Our DC Oligarchy is very good at (and spends a lot of money) dressing up their evil in white silk robes and calling it good.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-08   15:59:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Burkeman1 (#13)

how comical is it to think that the Japs or the Germans were going to invade and "take over" an America of 180 million strong and the most industrialized land mass in the world in 1941?

They would never have tried.

Nowadays, they could do it, and it would be easy. They would start by taking away American Idol and Extreme Makeover, and we'd be throwing ourselves off bridges.

leveller  posted on  2007-03-08   16:16:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: leveller (#12)

As based on lies as Vietnam was . . . it never approached the level of lies we are witnessing now in regard to the ME wars in Iraq an Afghanistan. Just one comparison- the level of illegitmacy of the puppet regimes. At the very least, the Quisling regime (actually- regimes plural as the US burned through a number of them) of South Vietnam had a modicum kernal of genuine support among some powerful families of former colonial administrators for the French and Catholic converts . . . Iraq doesn't even have that among the Sunni or the Shia (the Kurds being of no help other than death squad volunteers). South Vietnam's quisling army- though always poor- was actually able to fight on its own. Iraq's "Army" doesn't even merit the term. Finally- South Vietnam stood for 2 years on its own with no American troops other than a few advisors. Iraq's government would literally not last two days without massive US troop presence. Finally- US troops and Western media could do things like- oh- get a cup of coffee at a caffe in Saigon and not worry about being killed by an outraged vengence seeking populace. That cannot be done on Haifa street in Baghdad- right outside the Green Zone. This war was ALWAYS lost before it even started. It was lost because Iraqis had myriad justified reasons to DESPISE this country even before the first American soldier set foot inside Iraq in 2003 and this hatred had nothing to do with their support or lack of support for Saddam Hussein.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-08   16:43:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: leveller (#16)

They would start by taking away American Idol and Extreme Makeover, and we'd be throwing ourselves off bridges.

lol

christine  posted on  2007-03-08   16:44:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: leveller (#16)

They would start by taking away American Idol and Extreme Makeover, and we'd be throwing ourselves off bridges.

Then they could mop-up the remaining 0.1% by shutting off the electricity & water for 24 hours.

Most of us have more sources of aggravation than we need and 4um is one source that twists my innards. I’m tracking each and every keystroke at that forum. Anti-Zionists have nowhere to hide. Free speech? I don’t think so.
Aaron - El Pee poster

Esso  posted on  2007-03-08   16:49:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Burkeman1 (#17)

As based on lies as Vietnam was . . . it never approached the level of lies we are witnessing now in regard to the ME wars in Iraq an Afghanistan.

Not much lying was required. Two decades of cold war rhetoric had already prepared the US people for a battle with the Communist Menace. But the phony GWOT is another matter, entirely. A new vocabulary was required ("enemy combatant," "islamofascist," etc.) and a whole new outlook was necessary to imprint upon the Murikan Mind. Lotsa lyin' needed.

If all goes well, for the NeoCons, the need for lying will decrease substantially, because the lies they are telling now will become self- fulfilling prophecies. The GWOT may very well succeed in creating a global enemy, perhaps even a monolithic one.

leveller  posted on  2007-03-08   16:54:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Esso (#19)

Then they could mop-up the remaining 0.1% by shutting off the electricity & water for 24 hours.

The only stalwart resistance would come from the Unabomber.

leveller  posted on  2007-03-08   16:55:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Esso (#19)

If Americans had to live without electricity or running water for a week (think of that for a moment- what that means to the quality of your life if you had say a three year old, a newborn, and your elderly parents living with you in a three room apartment 4th floor walk up in Baghdad) they would dawn black pajamas and straw hats and wave around Mao's little red book while burning down their libraries is they thought it would turn the boob tube and the AC back on.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-08   16:57:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Burkeman1 (#22)

Yeah...I know.

Most of us have more sources of aggravation than we need and 4um is one source that twists my innards. I’m tracking each and every keystroke at that forum. Anti-Zionists have nowhere to hide. Free speech? I don’t think so.
Aaron - El Pee poster

Esso  posted on  2007-03-08   17:02:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: historian1944, BeAChooser, Burkeman1, leveller, Ricky J (#10)

The below site has the Wall Street Journal interview of Colonel Bui Tin on 3 August 1995. I think this is what you're referencing, since he's the guy who accepted the surrender. It's posted elsewhere also, this site was convenient. He doesn't say that they were ready to sue for terms, but it is an interesting interview.

http://www.viet- http://myths.net/buitin.htm

a. Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter wrap themselves with glee using the words of Colonel Bui Tin and parading the reason he gives for America missing out on winning one heck of noble war as the last word on the subject - like this Colonel Bui Tin is the official oracle on the Vietnam War..

What Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter and Michael Savage and Mark Levine fail to tell everyone is that Colonel Bui Tin is a former communist "true believer" recently turned disenchanted vocal anti-communist dissent who lives in exile in Paris. Hmmm...let's think about the reasons why Colonel Bui Tin would be motivated to say what he said in an interview with the Wall Street Journal ( HA!)...capitalism symbol par excellence....

Here's a little background on the good colonel - and by the way he was a communist army journalist during the Vietnam War and he served on general staff of the NV army so knows the value of good propaganda - he stepped into a moment of history by chance due to circumstance and not because he was an experienced battle hardened war officer for the NV.

I believe he's telling his American benefactors what they want to hear when he gives the reason he does.

Also consider the fact that the Vietnamese had a history of fighting outsiders for long stretches of time - 1000 years against the Chinese dynasties - how long were we prepared to bleed in Vietnam and fight for its "independence" or whatever we thought we were doing there.

They didn't want us there. They did not like the corrupt S. Vietnamese gov't we were supporting. We left when we did because we should not been been in that stupid war in the first place. What a waste of blood and treasure and an example of our shameful use chemical weapons against civilian populations. That war has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

But worse, we did not even learn a lesson from that grotesque mistake.

When GWB did his WTO thumping for communist Vietnam this January, I felt relieved that many of the parents who gave up their sons for that elective Vietnam war "to fight communism" were not alive to see our gov't sponsoring communist Vietnam into the WTO. Pathetic. Nor were they alive to read newly released documents that showed LBJ lied us into the war due to a faux Tonkin Incident.

Here's a little current info on Colonel Bui Tin.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1992/WR92/ASW-15.htm ( Human Rights Watch)

b. Here's some background info on new behind the scenes docs about the Vietnam War quagmire and also some info regarding what MacNamara said about the reasons why Vietnam and why this also so similar to the Iraq debacle.

http://newsaigonsanjose.blogspot.co m/

Nov. 17, 2005

"On the American wars in Vietnam and Iraq"

Newly-released secret documents reveal that the Bush administration is struggling with the same issues that faced the administration of Richard Nixon.

Full text of NYT article here - cut and paste the url:

http://www. >http://nytimes.com/2005/11/17/international/17nixon.html? ex=1173502800&en=9c5c9f67c421ed62&ei=5070

"Vietnam Archive Casts a Shadow Across Decades" Thom Shanker and David Stout

WASHINGTON, Nov. 16, 2005 - White House advisers convene secret sessions about the political dangers of revelations that American troops committed atrocities in the war zone, and about whether the president can delicately intervene in the investigation. In the face of an increasingly unpopular war, they wonder at the impact on support at home. The best way out of the war, they agree, is to prop up a new government that they hope can unite the fractured foreign land.

The National Archives and Records Administration on Wednesday released 50,000 pages of previously classified documents from the Nixon administration that reveal how all of that president's men wrestled with issues that eerily parallel problems facing the Bush administration.

There are many significant differences between the wars in Vietnam and in Iraq - a point that senior administration officials make at any opportunity. But in tone and content, the Nixon-era debate about the impact of that generation's war - and of war-crimes trials - on public support for the military effort and for White House domestic initiatives strikes many familiar chords.

As the Nixon administration was waging a war and trying to impose a peace in South Vietnam, it worried intensely about how the 1968 massacre at My Lai of South Vietnamese civilians by American troops would hurt the war effort, both at home and in Asia.

My Lai "could prove acutely embarrassing to the United States" and could affect the Paris peace talks, Defense Secretary Melvin R. Laird warned President Nixon. "Domestically, it will provide grist for the mills of antiwar activists," Mr. Laird said.

Documents show how the Nixon White House fretted over politics and perception, much as the Bush White House has done during the Iraq war, and that it feared that mistreatment of civilians could be ruinous to its image.

"The handling of this case to date has strictly observed the code of military justice," Henry A. Kissinger, then the national security adviser, wrote in a memo to the Nixon aide H. R. Haldeman. Mr. Kissinger said the court-martial of Lt. William L. Calley Jr., who was implicated in the massacre and ultimately convicted, would alleviate press concerns about a cover-up.

Moreover, President Nixon believed that images could be changed, as the presidential aide John R. Brown III wrote to Mr. Kissinger. "Secretary Laird's press is a measure of the good things a onetime hard-liner can earn by playing the dove for the liberal press," Mr. Brown wrote on Jan. 14, 1970.

With so many academic studies, popular histories and memoirs on the bookshelf - and more than seven million pages of Nixon documents released since 1986 by the National Archives in an ongoing declassification process - historians combing over the files on Wednesday said they were looking for golden needles in a haystack more than mining a previously unknown vein of precious metals.

The new release of documents included files on early American assessments of Israel's nuclear program, debates about supporting Pakistan during its war with India in 1971 and the superpower rivalry with Moscow.

Some of the Vietnam documents contain details about how the Nixon administration tried to prop up South Vietnam's president, Nguyen Van Thieu, behind the scenes while portraying him publicly as a courageous leader, as President Johnson had done.

In language that resonates with the positions of the Bush administration with regard to building a new government in Baghdad, the Nixon White House said in May 1969 that it wanted to establish in Vietnam "procedures for political choice that give each significant group a real opportunity to participate in the political life of the nation."

"What the United States wants for South Vietnam is not the important thing," said an internal White House planning-initiative memo. "What North Vietnam wants for South Vietnam is not the important thing. What is important is what the people of South Vietnam want for themselves."

The papers illustrate, too, how as late as 1969 American leaders really did not know very much about the psychology of North Vietnam - or, for that matter, about sentiments in the South.

In March 1969, while the Paris peace talks were under way, American officials worried about how strongly to react to a rocket attack on Saigon. Secretary of State William P. Rogers cabled American diplomats about the decision not to retaliate militarily against the North.

"Plainly, we shall need to have the most careful and continuing readings of the South Vietnamese temperature," Mr. Rogers wrote, reflecting concerns in Washington that the Saigon government would suspect it was being sold out.

Around that time, the State Department suggested that the American negotiator Henry Cabot Lodge soften his language in conveying American displeasure to the Hanoi delegation.

"We prefer this language not because it is less ambiguous than the original version but, on the contrary, because it is more ambiguous - and hence more flexible - as to our response," a State Department cable said.

That July, President Thieu fussed over Washington's editing of a speech he was to make recounting all the concessions that had been made to the Communists and calling again for general elections. A secret State Department wire to Saigon and Paris said an aide to Mr. Thieu, in describing his boss's annoyance, "used a phrase which, translated into English, comes out like 'Secretary Rogers has deflowered my speech.' "

President Nixon praised the July 11 speech as "a comprehensive, statesmanlike and eminently fair proposal for a political settlement in South Vietnam."

The documents show an internal debate in Washington over what effects the death of Ho Chi Minh, the North Vietnamese leader, in September 1969, would have.

Mr. Kissinger told the president that Ho's death would hurt North Vietnam's morale but would probably not soften its resolve. But a State Department cable to its diplomats around that time, when the department was headed by Mr. Kissinger's rival, Mr. Rogers, had a different perspective.

"We are, of course, uncertain ourselves of consequences of Ho's death," it read in part. "We are handicapped in our own analysis by paucity of good intelligence information on North Vietnamese intentions and internal politics."

During the summer and fall of 1969, a great effort was made by the Nixon White House to intervene in a military investigation of a group of Army Special Forces who had been accused of killing a suspected double agent in Nha Trang.

In a memorandum to Bryce Harlow, a Nixon aide, on Sept. 26, 1969, Mr. Kissinger counseled him about how to deal with the concerns of Congress. "The main substantive point you should make," Mr. Kissinger wrote, "is that the president is very concerned about the long-term implications of this case and that he is most anxious to dispose of it in a way which will do the least damage to our national security, the prestige and discipline of our armed services and to preserve our future freedom of action in the clandestine area."

"This is clearly a sign of things to come - and we are really going to be hit," Mr. Haldeman wrote to Mr. Kissinger, urging a quiet resolution. "Anything we can do - even at this late date?"

****The blogger who links to the NYT article says the following:***

The similarities are eerie. There are big differences to be sure. But note the similarities:

In 1995, former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, the architect of the American war in Vietnam, looked back and listed the major reasons for the failure of U.S. foreign policy there.

Here are some of them:

--We misjudged the intention of our adversaries and we exaggerated the danger to the United States.

--We viewed the people and the leaders in terms of our own experience. We saw in them a thirst for and a determination to fight for freedom and democracy. We totally misjudged the political forces within the country.

--We underestimated the power of nationalism to motive a people to fight and die for their beliefs and values – and we continue to do so today in many parts of the world.

--Our misjudgments of friend and foe alike reflected profound ignorance of the history, culture and politics of the people in the area and the personalities and habits of their leaders.

--We failed to recognize the limits of modern, high technology military equipment, forces and doctrine in confronting unconventional, highly motivated people's movements.

--We failed to adapt our military tactics to the task of winning the hearts and minds of the people from a totally different culture.

--We failed to draw Congress and the American people into a full and frank discussion and debate of the pros and cons of a large-scale military involvement before we initiated the action.

--After the action got underway and unanticipated events forces us off our planned course, we failed to retain popular support in part because we did not explain fully what was happening and why we were doing what we did. We had not prepared the public to understand the complex events we faced and how to react constructively to the need for changes in course as the nation confronted uncharted seas and an alien environment.

--We did not recognize that neither our people nor its leaders are omniscient.

--We did not hold to the principle that US military action – other than in response to direct threats to our own security – should be carried out only in conjunction with multinational forces fully and not merely cosmetically, by the international community.

--We failed to understand that in international affairs, as in other aspects of life, there may be problems in which there is no immediate solution.

I am not the first to say this, but those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-08   17:03:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: scrapper2 (#24)

After the action got underway and unanticipated events forces us off our planned course, we failed to retain popular support in part because we did not explain fully what was happening and why we were doing what we did. We had not prepared the public to understand the complex events we faced and how to react constructively to the need for changes in course as the nation confronted uncharted seas and an alien environment.

In other words- they lied, repeatedly - about everything- from troops increases (like they are doing now with the lies about "temporary surges") to body counts, to civilian casualties, to the nature of the insurgency itself (tried to paint it as merely a limited communist conspiracy among a tiny minority and not a broad popular nationalist movement to defeat a puppet regime and end foreign occupation- like they are doing now in regard to Iraq.) The lies added up and people got sick of it. As my father, who was almost sent over to Vietnam in 1969 after being called up in the reserves said at the time, by the late 60's- after years of lies from the government and Media - NO ONE believed anything that was said about that war any longer.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-08   17:17:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: BeAChooser (#5)

The American left (media and anti-war movement) are unable to acknowledge that they played a key role in that defeat....

Was your dad a piece of shit coward like you BAC? Was he a Vietnam war- mongerer that didn't have the guts to go over and put his money where his mouth is? Surly that yellow streak down your back is genetic.

Once more you show your true support for the troops. The Gulf of Tonkin incident was a complete fabrication responsible for the deaths of more than 50k American men and yet you choose to focus your anger on the American left and their reporting of Tet? It was the American left that got us in that war you fucking moron, although being the socialist, big government loving republican you are, I can understand why you would make the mistake of thinking Kennedy and LBJ were conservatives.

anti-warriors

You'd know all about being an anti-warrior wouldn't you.

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2007-03-08   17:54:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: leveller (#21)

The only stalwart resistance would come from the Unabomber.

laughing again.

christine  posted on  2007-03-08   18:06:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Hayek Fan (#26)

although being the socialist, big government loving republican you are, I can understand why you would make the mistake of thinking Kennedy and LBJ were conservatives.

so true!

christine  posted on  2007-03-08   18:07:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Hayek Fan (#26)

Its fascinating that a "new left" had to be created to even opposse the Vietnam War. Resistance to that boondoggle of an evil war should have come from the Old Right in this country- and there were some peeps from that side against it- but for the most part the "Right" in this country had by then been totally co- opted by CIA fronts like Willian Buckley and "National Review" and real conservatives had long been purged. So we have, to this day, morons who think they are "Rightwing" thinking that the Vietnam war was some sort of noble crusade and not what it was- a disgusting civilian murdering spree of an elective war fought by and for the interests of Big DC Centralized Government and its parasite MIC.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-08   18:24:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: historian1944, ALL (#10)

The below site has the Wall Street Journal interview of Colonel Bui Tin on 3 August 1995. I think this is what you're referencing, since he's the guy who accepted the surrender. It's posted elsewhere also, this site was convenient. He doesn't say that they were ready to sue for terms, but it is an interesting interview.

http://www.viet- http://myths.net/buitin.htm

Pardon me, you are correct. It was General Giap, commander of the North's forces, who admitted in his memoirs that his army was shattered in Tet and that he was ready to sue for peace. He said he changed his mind after watching American news programs that proclaimed the Viet Cong the winners in the TET offensive and after watching the American antiwar protesters attack their president and attack the war effort.

*********

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1113369/posts

"Analysis: A mini-Tet offensive in Iraq?

by Arnaud de Borchgrave

WASHINGTON, April 6 (UPI)

... snip ...

Before plunging into an orgy of erroneous and invidious historical parallels between Iraq and Vietnam, a reminder about what led to the U.S. defeat in Southeast Asia is timely.

Iraq will only be another Vietnam if the home front collapses, as it did following the Tet offensive, which began on the eve of the Chinese New Year, Jan. 31, 1968. The surprise attack was designed to overwhelm some 70 cities and towns, and 30 other strategic objectives simultaneously. By breaking a previously agreed truce for Tet festivities, master strategist Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap in Hanoi calculated that South Vietnamese troops would be caught with defenses down.

After the first few hours of panic, the South Vietnamese troops reacted fiercely. They did the bulk of the fighting and took some 6,000 casualties. Vietcong units not only did not reach a single one of their objectives -- except when they arrived by taxi at the U.S. Embassy in Saigon, blew their way through the wall into the compound and guns blazing made it into the lobby before they were wiped out by U.S. Marines -- but they lost some 50,000 killed and at least that many wounded. Giap had thrown some 70,000 troops into a strategic gamble that was also designed to overwhelm 13 of the 16 provincial capitals and trigger a popular uprising. But Tet was an unmitigated military disaster for Hanoi and its Vietcong troops in South Vietnam. Yet that was not the way it was reported in U.S. and other media around the world. It was television's first war. And some 50 million Americans at home saw the carnage of dead bodies in the rubble, and dazed Americans running around.

As the late veteran war reporter Peter Braestrup documented in "Big Story" -- a massive, two-volume study of how Tet was covered by American reporters -- the Vietcong offensive was depicted as a military disaster for the United States. By the time the facts emerged a week or two later from RAND Corp. interrogations of prisoners and defectors, the damage had been done. Conventional media wisdom had been set in concrete. Public opinion perceptions in the United States changed accordingly.

RAND made copies of these POW interrogations available. But few reporters seemed interested. In fact, the room where they were on display was almost always empty. Many Vietnamese civilians who were fence sitters or leaning toward the Vietcong, especially in the region around Hue City, joined government ranks after they witnessed Vietcong atrocities. Several mass graves were found with some 4,000 unarmed civil servants and other civilians, stabbed or with skulls smashed by clubs. The number of communist defectors, known as "chieu hoi," increased fourfold. And the "popular uprising" anticipated by Giap, failed to materialize. The Tet offensive also neutralized much of the clandestine communist infrastructure.

As South Vietnamese troops fought Vietcong remnants in Cholon, the predominantly Chinese twin city of Saigon, reporters, sipping drinks in the rooftop bar of the Caravelle Hotel, watched the fireworks 2 miles away. America's most trusted newsman, CBS' Walter Cronkite, appeared for a standup piece with distant fires as a backdrop. Donning helmet, Cronkite declared the war lost. It was this now famous television news piece that persuaded President Johnson six weeks later, on March 31, not to run. His ratings had plummeted from 80 percent when he assumed the presidency upon Kennedy's death to 30 percent after Tet. His handling of the war dropped to 20 percent, his credibility shot to pieces.

Until Tet, a majority of Americans agreed with Presidents Kennedy and Johnson that failure was not an option. It was Kennedy who changed the status of U.S. military personnel from advisers to South Vietnamese troops to full-fledged fighting men. By the time of Kennedy's assassination in Nov. 22, 1963, 16,500 U.S. troops had been committed to the war. Johnson escalated all the way to 542,000. But defeat became an option when Johnson decided the war was unwinnable and that he would lose his bid for the presidency in November 1968. Hanoi thus turned military defeat into a priceless geopolitical victory.

With the Vietcong wiped out in the Tet offensive, North Vietnamese regulars moved south down the Ho Chi Minh trails through Laos and Cambodia to continue the war. Even Giap admitted in his memoirs that news media reporting of the war and the anti-war demonstrations that ensued in America surprised him. Instead of negotiating what he called a conditional surrender, Giap said they would now go the limit because America's resolve was weakening and the possibility of complete victory was within Hanoi's grasp.

Hanoi's Easter offensive in March 1972 was another disaster for the communists. Some 70,000 North Vietnamese troops were wiped out -- by the South Vietnamese who did all the fighting. The last American soldier left Vietnam in March 1973. And the chances of the South Vietnamese army being able to hack it on its own were reasonably good. With one proviso: Continued U.S. military assistance with weapons and hardware, including helicopters. But Congress balked, first by cutting off military assistance to Cambodia, which enabled Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge communists to take over, which, in turn, was followed by a similar Congressional rug pulling from under the South Vietnamese, that led to rapid collapse of morale in Saigon.

The unraveling, with Congress pulling the string, was so rapid that even Giap was caught by surprise. As he recounts in his memoirs, Hanoi had to improvise a general offensive -- and then rolled into Saigon two years before they had reckoned it might become possible.

That is the real lesson for the U.S. commitment to Iraq. Whatever one thought about the advisability of Operation Iraqi Freedom, the United States is there with 100,000 troops and a solid commitment to endow Iraq with a democratic system of government. While failure is not an option for Bush, it clearly is for Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., who called Iraq the president's Vietnam. It is, of course, no such animal. But it could become so if Congressional resolve dissolves.

Bui Tin, who served on the general staff of the North Vietnamese army, received South Vietnam's unconditional surrender on April 30, 1975. In an interview with the Wall Street Journal after his retirement, he made clear the anti-war movement in the United States, which led to the collapse of political will in Washington, was "essential to our strategy."

Visits to Hanoi by Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and various church ministers "gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses."

America lost the war, concluded Bui Tin, "because of its democracy. Through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win." Kennedy should remember that Vietnam was the war of his brother who saw the conflict in the larger framework of the Cold War and Nikita Khrushchev's threats against West Berlin. It would behoove Kennedy to see Iraq in the larger context of the struggle to bring democracy, not only to Iraq, but the entire Middle East.

(Arnaud de Borchgrave covered Tet as Newsweek's chief foreign correspondent and had seven tours in Vietnam between 1951 under the French and 1972.)

*************

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   19:05:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Burkeman1, ALL (#13)

how comical is it to think that the Japs or the Germans were going to invade and "take over" an America of 180 million strong and the most industrialized land mass in the world in 1941

ROTFLOL! Priceless.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   19:07:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Burkeman1 (#29)

Its fascinating that a "new left" had to be created to even opposse the Vietnam War.

But was it a new left or was it the grassroots genuine left and the Old Right? It seems to me that, just as today, the two-party fraud and their butt-sniffing sychophants were all pro-war.

So we have, to this day, morons who think they are "Rightwing" thinking that the Vietnam war was some sort of noble crusade and not what it was- a disgusting civilian murdering spree of an elective war fought by and for the interests of Big DC Centralized Government and its parasite MIC.

I chaulk this up to an uneducated populace. My guess is that nine out of ten "conservatives" have never even heard of Russell Kirk, much less Edmund Burke. Their idea of a conservative is Rush Limbaugh and the modern day republican party.

Having said that, while I agree with much of Kirks comments on cultural conservatism, I much prefer Bastiat, John Stuart Mill (before he became a socialist), Hayek, Rothbard, and von Mises over that of Russell Kirk

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2007-03-08   19:07:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: scrapper2, ALL (#24)

I believe he's telling his American benefactors what they want to hear when he gives the reason he does.

He doesn't appear to have said anything that isn't true. The NVA and Viet Cong forces were shattered in Tet. That's a documented fact. They didn't recover for years. Again fact. The American and South Vietnamese forces had successfully cut off access to the south through central Vietnam. Fact. Any effort by the North hinged on the Ho Chi Minh trail. Fact. Nothing would have prevented us from cutting Laos in two by building a system of forts to do the same thing as was done in Vietnam. Fact. Westmoreland had a plan to do so. Fact. Johnson prevented it. Fact. And bombing the North would have been the capstone. Fact. Plus, it wasn't just Bui Tin saying this, Giap himself admitted it in his memoirs. And the North Vietnamese still celebrate the anti-war movement and it's major figures ... like Kerry and Fonda. Sorry, I don't think what you *believe* has any basis in reality, scrapper.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   19:17:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: scrapper2 (#24)

One thing I did note was that the good Colonel's words really didn't match what I'd read in books written by H. John Poole about how the Vietcong fought. With all the digging they did one would think they were in it for the long haul. And the Colonel's talk about wanting to not fight a guerrilla war jarred me too. One of the surest ways to ensure defeat is to try to fight us in the way that we're best at (just ask Hussein in 1991).

I think you've also hit on one of the easier ways to detect a war of choice. If the Vietnamese were willing to fight against subjugation for 1000 years, it's a guarantee that we weren't taking the long view like that. If it was a war of necessity, we would not have had to debate about continuing it. One can imagine that the North Vietnamese didn't have discussions like that about accepting foreign occupation.

The other interesting mental exercise is to answer the question: What discernable impact on US and world affairs did our failure in Vietnam have? I know that Pol Pot can be cited, but for us, what real impact was there after the failure?

Rivers of blood were spilled out over land that, in normal times, not even the poorest Arab would have worried his head over." Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

historian1944  posted on  2007-03-08   19:17:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: HOUNDDAWG, Hayek Fan, ALL (#26)

Hayek Fan - Was your dad a piece of shit coward like you BAC?

Is this another example of that respectful debate you were talking about, HOUNDDAWG?

And say, Hayek, where'd you disappear to? We were having such a lovely debate about the collapse of the WTC towers and the John Hopkins Iraq mortality studies. Then you just disappeared. ROTFLOL!

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   19:22:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: historian1944, ALL (#34)

What discernable impact on US and world affairs did our failure in Vietnam have?

Do a web browser search under the phrase "paper tiger".

For example:

http://www.jfednepa.org/mark%20silverberg/papertiger.html "Al Qaeda and its global Islamic terrorist affiliates came to the conclusion that America's weakness stemmed from a post-Vietnam conviction that required future wars to be short, antiseptic and casualty free. Bin Laden summed up his perception of Americans in an interview with ABC News reporter John Miller, published in Esquire in 1998: “After leaving Afghanistan, the Muslim fighters headed for Somalia and prepared for a long battle thinking that the Americans were like the Russians. The youth were surprised at the low morale of the American soldiers and realized, more than before, that the American soldier was a paper tiger and after a few blows……would run in defeat.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/contributors/robbins111601.shtml "Bin Laden and his planners were inspired by prior examples of United States retreat, most notably the defeat in Vietnam, but more proximately the U.S. withdrawal from Somalia in 1994 following the disastrous attempt to capture Somali warlord Mohammed Farah Aidid, and the pullout from Lebanon after the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1984. The impression had grown that the U.S. was a paper tiger. American forces had a technological edge and massive firepower, but if a foe could inflict a bloody nose, the skittish American public would demand withdrawal, and politicians would hold hearings to place blame. As Syrian Foreign Minister Abdel Halim Khaddam said to American negotiators after the Beirut bombings, "The United States is short of breath. You can always wait them out."

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2006/02/what_newly_released_al_qaeda_l_1.html "The Combating Terrorism Center at West Point has posted on its web site several al Qaeda-related documents that have been "captured in the course of operations supporting the GWOT." Two letters, dated September 30, 1993 and May 24, 1994, relate directly to al Qaeda operations in Somalia. The letters are from "Hassan al-Tajiki" to the "African Corps." Assuming their authenticity, the letters are consistent with the propaganda of bin Laden in the 1990s that Mogadishu and other events showed that America was "a paper tiger" and "a weak horse." He and his followers would use such imagery as a recruiting tool for al Qaeda, "the strong horse" in bin Laden's words, throughout the 1990s."

Here's one of those two letters: http://www.ctc.usma.edu/aq_600053-3.asp "the Somali experience confirmed the spurious nature of American power and that it has not recovered from the Vietnam complex. It fears getting bogged down in a real war that would reveal its psychological collapse at the level of personnel and leadership. Since Vietnam America has been seeking easy battles that are completely guaranteed."

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   19:39:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: BeAChooser (#35)

Then you just disappeared. ROTFLOL

Liar. I didn't just disappear, nor did I debate you over the WTC towers. My only comment about the WTC towers was about how you refused to accept any information from anyone concerning the towers because they didn't meet your idea of expertise on the subject, while at the same time presenting me with the rants of unknown bloggers and telling me it's evidence of why the study was wrong.

I made it quite plain why I chose to end our conversation concerning the John Hopkins study. I chose to believe that the John Hoplins School of Public Health would not risk their worldwide reputation as the leader in public health in order to play gotcha with the Bush administration. I told you why I felt this way. You chose to believe differently. On top of that, you demand that I answer questions that I am not qualified to answer. There was nothing more to be gained from the conversation. It had turned into the equivalent of two children saying, "did not...did too...did not...did too." I've got better things to do with my time, even if you don't. ROTFLOL!

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2007-03-08   19:41:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: BeAChooser, historian1944, ALL (#36)

So the US is a paper tiger because the American people are not willing to have their children die in far off countries in wars that mean absolutley nothing to anyone but those in Washington DC? I tell you what. You let a country invade the United States and then we'll talk about a paper tiger.

You are the paper tiger BAC. You revel in war as long as you are sitting safe behind your computer in Podunk, USA.

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2007-03-08   19:53:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: historian1944, Burkeman1, BeAChooser (#34) (Edited)

One thing I did note was that the good Colonel's words really didn't match what I'd read in books written by H. John Poole about how the Vietcong fought. With all the digging they did one would think they were in it for the long haul. And the Colonel's talk about wanting to not fight a guerrilla war jarred me too. One of the surest ways to ensure defeat is to try to fight us in the way that we're best at (just ask Hussein in 1991).

I think you've also hit on one of the easier ways to detect a war of choice. If the Vietnamese were willing to fight against subjugation for 1000 years, it's a guarantee that we weren't taking the long view like that. If it was a war of necessity, we would not have had to debate about continuing it. One can imagine that the North Vietnamese didn't have discussions like that about accepting foreign occupation.

The other interesting mental exercise is to answer the question: What discernable impact on US and world affairs did our failure in Vietnam have? I know that Pol Pot can be cited, but for us, what real impact was there after the failure?

Thank you for your sustinct remarks and observations to explain better the ramifications of the glob of information I had included in my previous post. You tie up everything very nicely.

As to your last observation you are especially on point - the whole domino theory and worry about what it represented, the main reason given for sending US forces to Vietnam, a nation several thousands of miles away from us was proven to be by and large empty war mongering rhetoric. As you say - our failure in Vietnam did not have any discernable negative impact either on the USA or on world affairs. Sean Hannity always beats his breast about those poor 3 Million Cambodians that our withdrawal from Vietnam caused but I've never heard Sean fret about the 5 Million Vietnamese casualties that were a direct result of the Vietnam War we waged on their soil. What a hypocritical Bot shill punk.

http://www.vietnam- war.info/casualties/

"Vietnam released figures on April 3, 1995 that a total of one million Vietnamese combatants and four million civilians were killed in the war. The accuracy of these figures has generally not been challenged."

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-08   20:02:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Hayek Fan, ALL (#37)

My only comment about the WTC towers was about how you refused to accept any information from anyone concerning the towers because they didn't meet your idea of expertise on the subject, while at the same time presenting me with the rants of unknown bloggers and telling me it's evidence of why the study was wrong.

Actually, what you said is this:

What boggles my mind is that in the WTC debate, BAC refuses to accept any information from a person with a doctorate in physics because he isn't a metallurgist.

And my response was this:

*******

"There is much more to my reason for not believing Steven Jones than his not being a metallurgist. Why try to misstate my views, Hayek? Ex-Professor Jones claims some expertise in the subjects of structures, demolition, steel, fire, concrete, impact, seismology and macro-world physics. Yet, ex-professor Jones spent his entire 30 year career studying sub-atomic particles and cold fusion. Not once in that career did he publish a paper that had anything remotely to do with any of the topics needed to speak authoratively on the WTC.

Furthermore, Professor Jones has been dishonest about a number of subjects. To give you just one example, in speaking about the molten material seen flowing out of the South Tower shortly before it collapsed, he said "In the videos of the molten metal falling from WTC2 just prior to its collapse, it appears consistently orange, not just orange in spots and certainly not silvery." This is untrue. If you watch this video,

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2991254740145858863&q=cameraplanet+9%2F11,

you will see silver color in the stream of material once it gets away from the window. This occurs from 12 seconds in the video to 33 seconds in the video. It is especially clear at about 32 seconds. You'll also see it from 57 seconds to a 67 seconds. And from 74 to 75 seconds, material can be seen pouring from the corner of the tower and that material is very clearly silver, not orange. So Steven Jones is demonstrably lying. Why would you trust such a liar, Hayek? For the same reason you trust Les Roberts?

***********

If you had no response to that perhaps that indicates something ...

I chose to believe that the John Hoplins School of Public Health would not risk their worldwide reputation as the leader in public health in order to play gotcha with the Bush administration. I told you why I felt this way. You chose to believe differently.

My aren't you trusting. Even when the authors virtually admitted that they published the report with a preconceived agenda. When they admitted that they did the interviews with a group of Iraqis who mostly HATE Americans. Even when they ignored clear warning signs that something was amiss in their methods. Even when one of the authors runs for Congress as a democRAT. Even when the authors and those who reviewed the study gave money to democRATS during the election. Even when the Lancet changes its opinion about mortality rates without even commenting on that change. Even when the Lancet rushes the peer review process in, again, an admitted effort to affect the election against the war.

There was nothing more to be gained from the conversation. It had turned into the equivalent of two children saying, "did not...did too...did not...did too."

No, one of those children posted numerous sources ... not just by unnamed bloggers ... that pointed out serious questions about the study. The other just repeated the mantra that John Hopkins surely wouldn't put its *good* reputation at risk by publishing a bogus study.

I've got better things to do with my time, even if you don't.

Like make that respectful remark in post #26?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   20:08:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Hayek Fan, ALL (#38)

You are the paper tiger BAC. You revel in war as long as you are sitting safe behind your computer in Podunk, USA.

You know nothing about me, HF. But if you want to use this debating tactic in leiu of citing sourced facts, be my guest.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   20:10:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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