4um: Review of January 5th, 2008 ABC GOP Debate

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Title: Review of January 5th, 2008 ABC GOP Debate
Source: 4
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Published: Jan 5, 2008
Author: buckeye
Post Date: 2008-01-05 21:57:08 by buckeye
Keywords: Ron Paul
Views: 1763
Comments: 103

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Quick synopsis
Ron Paul, my focus during this event, was tired, slow to articulate his points, and easily overwhelmed by aggressive partisans.
McCain appeared to withdraw his insistence on amnesty, and then spent excess time interrupting other candidates who were differentiating themselves from his former positions — in defense of what he had apologized for.
Romney was effective at articulating his technical perspectives on issues (medical care, immigration) but clearly will not deviate from the Bush doctrines of war.
Thompson was reserved and came across as a fat cat at times. He smirked at Ron Paul several times.
Giuliani was about the same as he has always been. He smirked and laughed mirthlessly at Ron Paul several times.
John McCain was especially demeaning to Ron Paul during discussion of war.
Smirking and chuckling was prevalent when Ron Paul was talking about the Federal Reserve and inflation.
Illegal Immigration

This is my main reason for posting this thread.
It became abundantly clear that no one on the stage would deal with illegal immigration adequately. PC rules the day. we are not being heard yet.
Ron Paul lost an incredible chance to demonstrate his resolve on this issue, but he came close by emphasizing welfare.
The other GOP members are weak-kneed and left themselves with massive openings for abandoning their commitments to deal with immigration.
Huckabee talked about building a fence, and sounded like he's been listening to Gilchrist; his credibility is very low in my opinion.
The American people have NOT communicated their anger effectively with these people.
Ron Paul's demeanor

This was a fair debate with an open format.
Rushed, combative, on the defensive in many cases.
Unable to keep up with cross-talk and interruptions.
Should have worn a red tie, I'm hearing.
Ron Paul's victory
He kept his temper when badly mistreated not by ABC, but by the other participants.
He kept his humor, and joked several times.
He did articulate the threat of inflation/monetary-abuse.
He did talk about civil liberties and preemptive war.
He did talk about free enterprise and the Constitution.
He is the only candidate truly planning on implementing change.

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#1. To: FOH, christine, iconoclast, Cynicom, who knows what evil, lodwick (#0)
ping

buckeye posted on 2008-01-05 22:01:27 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#2. To: buckeye (#0)
Thanks buck...
In his behalf, Paul is near my age and we do tire easily.
On the other hand Paul has also lived more history than the rest and he is a gentleman.

Cynicom posted on 2008-01-05 22:02:55 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#3. To: buckeye (#1)
Paul was the only one who didn't make a complete ass of himself.
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org

who knows what evil posted on 2008-01-05 22:04:05 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#4. To: Cynicom (#2)
On the other hand Paul has also lived more history than the rest and he is a gentleman.

He knows what America needs. The others know what their owners need.

Peppa posted on 2008-01-05 22:04:48 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#5. To: Peppa (#4)
Thompson is a fair actor, a poor lawyer and was a worthless Senator that has always had words put in his mouth by OTHERS.

Cynicom posted on 2008-01-05 22:07:09 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#6. To: Cynicom, who knows what evil (#2) (Edited)
On the other hand Paul has also lived more history than the rest and he is a gentleman.

Absolutely. As WKWE says, RP did not compromise himself as the others did. And I mean the others did in one way or another. I was especially grateful to have the chance to hear them squirm on illegal immigration and government-manipulated "free" markets.

buckeye posted on 2008-01-05 22:12:06 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#7. To: who knows what evil (#3)
Paul was the only one who didn't make a complete ass of himself.

yeah, the rest of them just didn't seem like very nice people. I'm not saying you should support someone because you'd like to have a beer with him, but by the same token, you probably shouldn't support someone who you'd rather see get beaten up in a bar fight.

kiki posted on 2008-01-05 23:13:10 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#8. To: kiki (#7)
the rest of them just didn't seem like very nice people.

Too true.

buckeye posted on 2008-01-05 23:17:18 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#9. To: buckeye (#1)

_______ posted on 2008-01-05 23:23:29 ET (1 image) Reply Trace Private Reply
#10. To: _______ (#9)
What are the odds?

buckeye posted on 2008-01-05 23:25:19 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#11. To: buckeye (#10)
What are the odds?

_______ posted on 2008-01-05 23:26:59 ET (1 image) Reply Trace Private Reply
#12. To: _______ (#11)
I see.

buckeye posted on 2008-01-05 23:28:16 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#13. To: Cynicom, buckeye, *Ron Paul for President 2008* (#2) (Edited)
I disagree with this analysis, I thought Dr. Paul behaved like a gentleman, and did very well. He was more careful this time in his explanation of his domestic policies; that was a relief.
The best part, IMO, was the question he posed that received no answer: "Then why do we prop up their dictators?"
Also, there was clearly a "Gentlemen's Agreement" to LAUGH together AT Dr. Paul.
Dr. Paul did not engage in attacking others, which was very smart.
Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!
The Revolution will not be televised!
robin posted on 2008-01-06 7:59:56 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#14. To: kiki, buckeye, All (#7)
the rest of them just didn't seem like very nice people

The Republican establishment is not made up of "very nice people".
I have been musing over what shape Dr. Paul's game plan may take as the 2008 race goes forward.
I do not see evidence of RP's throwing much of the treasure chest around, and I have come to feel strongly that he will declare third party (unless someone on a white horse charges in, and I don't know who the hell that would be).
Perhaps it is just wishful thinking on my part, but I believe the good Doctor may/has come to the conclusion that the most realistic step toward return to a Constitution based government may be first putting a stake through the heart of the faux "conservative" party in the form of a huge and painful and undeniable rejection of the treasonists in November.
Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?
iconoclast posted on 2008-01-06 9:16:06 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#15. To: iconoclast, christine, kiki, scrapper2, Cynicom (#14)
...I believe the good Doctor may/has come to the conclusion that the most realistic step toward return to a Constitution based government may be first putting a stake through the heart of the faux "conservative" party in the form of a huge and painful and undeniable rejection of the treasonists in November.

I'm watching this again (see [ABC Debate 1-5-08 Complete]).
I'm reminded of the following among the others:
Refusal to recognize the war's failures (Ron Paul got his alternative ideas out fairly well).
Refusal to admit that immigration policy has been terrible.
Glib attitudes toward the loss of America's manufacturing base.
Wanton reaffirmation of the intents of telecommunications spying, the Patriot Act and the MCA (Ron Paul talked about civil liberties).
An intentional lack of interest in inflation and monetary policy (Ron Paul nailed it on the price of oil).
Leaving the Democrats aside, we're seeing a headlong rush to take up the treasons Bush baton here.
I have to say again that Huckabee's preemptive health care was the most disturbing demonstration of his collectivism that I've heard to date.
Iconoclast, I hope you are RIGHT. For America's sake, I hope so.

buckeye posted on 2008-01-06 10:15:37 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#16. To: buckeye, ALL (#0)
(from Buckeye's article)
Ron Paul's victory
He kept his temper when badly mistreated not by ABC, but by the other participants.
He kept his humor, and joked several times.
He did articulate the threat of inflation/monetary-abuse.
He did talk about civil liberties and preemptive war.
He did talk about free enterprise and the Constitution.
He is the only candidate truly planning on implementing change.

thank you from the bottom of my heart Buckeye for writing and posting this article
you gave me all the information I wanted, you are a great help
and you did an excellent job!
I read every word you wrote, and where you summed up Ron Paul's victory, I am immensely pleased
It is a superb victory, Ron Paul did excellent!!
Great
as for where you felt he was lacking, I am not concerned
I don't think those lacks amounted to anything
altho I like the suggeston he wear a red tie
It sounds to me like anyone not acquainted with Ron Paul,
who watched this debate, had a chance to get to know him
The man and what he stands for
Which is all we want from these debates
Love, Palo

palo verde posted on 2008-01-06 10:25:26 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#17. To: robin, ALL (#13)
I thought Dr. Paul behaved like a gentleman, and did very well.
He was more careful this time in his explanation of his domestic policies;
that was a relief.
The best part, IMO, was the question he posed that received no answer:
"Then why do we prop up their dictators?"
Also, there was clearly a "Gentlemen's Agreement" to LAUGH together AT Dr. Paul.
Dr. Paul did not engage in attacking others, which was very smart.

Robin this is superb post you wrote
and from what I witnessed, true
you did great
Love, Palo
Dr Paul did excellent in the debate!

palo verde posted on 2008-01-06 10:30:15 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#18. To: palo verde (#16)
... thank you from the bottom of my heart Buckeye for writing and posting this article you gave me all the information I wanted, you are a great help

Well thank you Palo Verde. I wish I could have done better, but I did not take notes (I regret that) and my coverage was vague.
On the idea that he did well in the eyes of critical audiences, I don't know about that, and I suspect not. But they are blinded by the party pundits and free media support the government has received. Millions and millions of Americans know their government has gone mad, and they will be interested in the fact that Ron Paul is different. That's a start.
On the other hand, I refuse to support any politician blindly, and I will continue to criticize Ron Paul and other candidates as the election process continues.

buckeye posted on 2008-01-06 10:31:14 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#19. To: Cynicom (#2)
Thanks buck...

... Paul has also lived more history than the rest and he is a gentleman.

very nice post, Cynicom
and true!
Love, Palo

palo verde posted on 2008-01-06 10:34:07 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#20. To: who knows what evil, ALL (#3)
Paul was the only one who didn't make a complete ass of himself.

they all got a chance to present themselves and say their piece
that is what we want from these debates
Viva democracy!
and Shame on FOX for excluding Ron Paul this evening
ABC did good to have this debate
I thank them from the bottom of my heart
Love, Palo
I am no Duncan Hunter fan, but I love democracy, and he should have been in the debate too!

palo verde posted on 2008-01-06 10:40:32 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#21. To: palo verde (#20) (Edited)
I am no Duncan Hunter fan, but I love democracy, and he should have been in the debate too!

Full agreement here. It would have helped Ron Paul to demonstrate his resolute positions on immigration, some of [edit] which are probably as effective or better than Hunter's.

buckeye posted on 2008-01-06 10:44:18 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#22. To: buckeye, ALL (#6)
Ron Paul did not compromise himself as the others did

Ron Paul has it easy, all he has to do is speak his truth
Rudy is sincere, but misguided
I think Fred would prefer being an actor in Hollywood
the other 3 just didn't seem real to me
and in no way deserve to be President of the United States of America at this time
they are mindless (and corrupt)

palo verde posted on 2008-01-06 10:49:11 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#23. To: palo verde (#19)
he is a gentleman.

Palo...
Paul is not the best looking candidate, nor the most articulate, but he has more personal accomplishments than all the others put together, plus, Paul is a gentleman.
A gentleman, first, last and always. I cannot say that about the others.

Cynicom posted on 2008-01-06 10:51:31 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#24. To: palo verde (#22)
Rudy is sincere, but misguided

Rudy is too intelligent to be sincere in this case. He's a traitorous heel, involved with the North American Superhighway and with Norman Podhoretz on his foreign policy team.

buckeye posted on 2008-01-06 10:56:34 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#25. To: buckeye (#18)
Millions and millions of Americans know their government has gone mad,
and they will be interested in the fact that Ron Paul is different.
That's a start.

very perceptive post, Buckeye, I congratulate you
our government has gone mad, and my hunch is half our citizens are aware of it consciously, half feel it vaguely
which is why Ron Paul's sanity and solutions will be experienced by them as wonderful rain to thirsty earth
GO Ron GO
Love, Palo

palo verde posted on 2008-01-06 10:57:27 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#26. To: buckeye (#8)
I have a hard time understanding why any decent person would not vote for Ron Paul. If he merely articulated his views, then he had to have gained supporters, despite looking tired.
1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
Red Jones posted on 2008-01-06 10:58:39 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#27. To: Cynicom (#23)
Palo...
Paul is not the best looking candidate, nor the most articulate,
but he has more personal accomplishments than all the others put together,
plus, Paul is a gentleman.
A gentleman, first, last and always. I cannot say that about the others.

what an exquisite and true post you wrote, Cynicom
I thank you for it
All my love, Palo

palo verde posted on 2008-01-06 10:59:50 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#28. To: Red Jones (#26)
I have a hard time understanding why any decent person would not vote for Ron Paul.
If he merely articulated his views, then he had to have gained supporters...

Bravo Red, for perfectly sensible post
You got to the crux of the matter
I agree with you
Love, Palo

palo verde posted on 2008-01-06 11:02:40 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#29. To: Peppa, ALL (#4)
(Cynicom) On the other hand Paul has also lived more history than the rest and he is a gentleman.
(Peppa) Ron Paul knows what America needs. The others know what their owners need.

that's it in a nutshell
Love, Palo

palo verde posted on 2008-01-06 11:06:31 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#30. To: Cynicom (#5)
After last night's debate, I would stick needles in my eyes rather than vote for Thompson. He can go suck an ostrich egg.
Tag Line For Rent
Critter posted on 2008-01-06 11:08:39 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#31. To: Red Jones (#26)
I have a hard time understanding why any decent person would not vote for Ron Paul.

Because he comes across as weak on illegal immigration. I'm just reporting what I know, not what I prefer.

buckeye posted on 2008-01-06 11:17:29 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#32. To: Cynicom (#23)
A gentleman, first, last and always.

I agree. His gentlemanliness was obvious during the wolfpack mentality of the other debaters. I don't think it's a good forum for him, as the jackals don't play by the rules. It gives MSM an opportunity to discredit Paul rather than showcase him. The hee-hawing of Guiliani was almost to much to bear.
Live free or die.
angle posted on 2008-01-06 11:19:31 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#33. To: noone222, buckeye, ALL (#0)
(Palo) I found this post by noone222 at the bottom of last night's thread, I am copying it here,
because we are talking about these things here
posters will want to read his 2 cents
I have my own comment on it, I'll post it below

by noone222
I don't think RP looked very confident last night. His demeanor is low key and his being a gentleman amongst arrogance may cost him unless he's able to get in the fray.
I hate to be critical of the ONLY worthy candidate ... but if he doesn't step it up a couple of notches he's doomed.
"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create money ." --- Josiah Stamp
noone222

I want to give thought to how I respond to this
because it matters
so I'm just posting this now
and will comment when I've thought about it

I am glad NoOne raised this issue, because everyone has thought it
but my hunch is it is not true
I mean Dr Paul is doing everything perfectly, he does not have to be different
but again, let me try to think it thru
Love, Palo
I would very much like to hear what everyone else thinks about this too?

palo verde posted on 2008-01-06 11:35:24 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#34. To: noone222, buckeye, critter, Cynicom Peppa, Robin, ALL (#33)
by noone222
I don't think RP looked very confident last night.
His demeanor is low key and his being a gentleman amongst arrogance may cost him
unless he's able to get in the fray.
I hate to be critical of the ONLY worthy candidate ...
but if he doesn't step it up a couple of notches he's doomed.

Ron Paul did look perfectly confident and relaxed last night
he was not aggressive and he is not charismatic
(does not have charisma)
I looked up charisma in dictionary on google
1) a personal magic of leadership arousing special popular loyalty or enthusiasm for a public figure (as a political leader)
2) a special magnetic charm or appeal (the charisma of a popular actor)
Ron Paul is a modest person
He is a quiet person
He is a calm person
Ron Paul offers his mind and his character
His mind is filled with sane and sensible ideas of how to stop the madness which has taken hold of our government now
and steer our ship of state back to liberty, peace, and abundance
Ron Paul is perfectly honest, trustworthy, and cannot be bought off
It is a tremendous blessing of God, a man like that is running for President of the United States now
and it is our job to put him in our Oval Office this time next year
And we will
On our side, our citizens all have minds
the power elites are banking on their idea that we don't have minds
but they are wrong
and anyone who hears Ron Paul's message and gets to meet him on TV will be interested
and a majority will want him to be our President
Love, Palo

palo verde posted on 2008-01-06 11:54:38 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#35. To: who knows what evil, lodwick, ALL (#34)
I forgot to ping you to my above post
Love, Palo

palo verde posted on 2008-01-06 11:56:24 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#36. To: palo verde (#34)
and a majority will want him to be our President

I'm hopeful at idea that he might form a third party, since the GOP machinery is clearly so corrupt.

buckeye posted on 2008-01-06 11:57:28 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#37. To: buckeye (#36)
Ron Paul doesn't have to form a 3rd party, he just has to be President this time next year
we still do have free elections, we have to put him in Office now
Love, Palo
we'll have to deal with corruption in GOP after Ron Paul is President

palo verde posted on 2008-01-06 12:03:33 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#38. To: palo verde (#37)
You may want to go figure out what happened in Wyoming yesterday and get back to us on that, Palo. Note that I don't understand myself.

buckeye posted on 2008-01-06 12:08:03 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#39. To: buckeye, palo verde, iconoclast, christine, kiki, scrapper2, Cynicom, robin, all (#15)
I believe the good Doctor may/has come to the conclusion that the most realistic step toward return to a Constitution

I have needed to think about this... for some time, before anything could/should be said. To be frank, I had trouble watching the debate. If there are people, and obviously there are, in America that were attracted to what the 'others' in this so-called debate had to say, then America is truly deserving of what is planned for her.
On the other side, for those who were not/are not familiar with Dr. Paul's message, I doubt he converted many. Robin is correct; there was a concerted effort by all others to belittle the message of Dr. Paul. That was pretty well done, although it is the only thing that was pretty well done 'by them.' And the message that Dr. Paul was putting out was intended for his base; this is a BIG mistake.
There is a common theme that runs through today's politics in America and that Dr. Paul needs to put out, or he is done.
1. We were told before the invasion of Iraq that the oil would pay for all expenses. We have now spent or committed more than 1 tillion dollars (repeat repeat repeat) and we can not afford to repair New Orleans - pay for health care - repair our infastructure - cut taxes for the middle class - repeat endlessly. Everytime something is said about paying for something, base it on i trillion dollars spent in a needless neverending war. Ask how much is enough? Ask if we need to spend 2 trillion. 3 trillion. 4 trillion.
There really is no other way to get this into the view of most Americans.
2. China now has more than 1.3 trillion dollars in reserve. Money that we Americans have spent on Chinese products because we no longer have any manufacturing in America. And, by the way, how many years did it take for China to accumualte all of that money? Yet, in Iraq, we have spent/commited more than 1 trillion dollars in just 4 years!
3. A prestiges British company/research institute (?) recently did an analysis of deaths in the civilian population in Iraq. They used internationally accepted methods in doing this, methods which have been used in many different locations around the world and which methods are accepted by the UN -- this research revealed that as many as 1 million EXTRA Iraq civilians have died in Iraq since the United States invaded the nation. 1 million needless deaths. 1 million. Repeat. Plus more than 4 thousand Americans have died there, and we have more than 20,000 (?) severly wounded, increased suicides, and etc.
No one needs to attack the others; all they need to do is put before the American public the facts that the major media denies, and, then back everything up on the web site. That is all that it takes, and I could not see that this is being done. Basically, he is playing, as far as I can see, by 'their' rules.
Keep playing by their rules, and this is simply, as I suspected from the beginning, an excercise in futility.
You are all correct in that Dr. Paul's message is the only message that is different. BUT...... therein lies the problem, because that means that it is outside of what Americans have come to consider normal. Which means that it is outside of their confort zone. Not many people are willing to change; it requires something akin to shock to force change on them, and, there was no shock in his message during the debate. And in particular in NH, that is something that would have been valued.
Dr. Paul was a gentleman. Gentlemen do not win these kinds of fights.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
richard9151 posted on 2008-01-06 12:11:04 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#40. To: palo verde (#34)
Don't think that I'm not 1000% supportive of Dr. Paul. I just think he possesses the attributes of a Statesman and Constitutional awareness this country needs to put into practice, but seems hesitant to forcefully project himself into the debate.
While the others (unworthy to lace his shoes) seemed able to inject themselves whenever they wished, Dr. Paul waited until he was addressed by the moderator. This was likely the more polite approach, but formulas presented by the scumbags hogging the air time have already been heard for 100 years, haven't succeeded in the least, and is simply so much blah, blah, blah.
One last thing just in case anyone has some insider ability to mention something to Dr. Paul. He mentions the young people sometimes as if they are his primary supporters almost to the exclusion of everyone else. I KNOW his supporters are all ages, races, and religions, include members of every level of the social stratum and are looking to remain free from governmental intrusion and the nanny state. Dr. Pauls enthusiastic supporters are sick of the status quo and want real change and not the tired old repeated ad nauseum promises of change we hear every election cycle.
Dr. Paul needs to show up and make himself noticed in the mainstream in order to win. I'm not saying he hasn't already made a huge difference, because he most definitely has. The internet isn't enough, he must secure the hearts and minds of Americans far and wide.
I think he's the only thing standing between a free America and a civil war. I've been watching politics for 45 years and never witnessed such a grass roots ground swell of wide ranging support. We must do all we can to win, even if that is so we know we did everything we could to salvage the country. It's very serious, and I don't think I have the capability to express just how serious it is.
"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create money ." --- Josiah Stamp
noone222 posted on 2008-01-06 12:35:00 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

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Freedom4um

Quick synopsis

Illegal Immigration

Ron Paul's demeanor

Ron Paul's victory

Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org