4um: Joel Osteen: Mitt's a Real Christian (Mormon-LDS-Smithian Cult)

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Title: Joel Osteen: Mitt's a Real Christian (Mormon-LDS-Smithian Cult)
Source: AOL News
URL Source: http://news.aol.com/political-machi ... osteen-mitts-a-real-christian/
Published: Dec 28, 2008
Author: Tommy Christopher
Post Date: 2008-01-13 13:30:23 by _______
Keywords: Mormon, Smithian, Cult
Views: 3394
Comments: 21

In an interview with Fox News' Chris Wallace, popular televangelist Joel Osteen gave Mitt Romney an endorsement of sorts, addressing the doctrinal issues that many had hoped would be addressed in Romney's "Faith in America" speech.

WALLACE: And what about Mitt Romney? And I've got to ask you the question, because it is a question whether it should be or not in this campaign, is a Mormon a true Christian?
OSTEEN: Well, in my mind they are. Mitt Romney has said that he believes in Christ as his savior, and that's what I believe, so, you know, I'm not the one to judge the little details of it. So I believe they are. And so, you know, Mitt Romney seems like a man of character and integrity to me, and I don't think he would - anything would stop me from voting for him if that's what I felt like.
WALLACE: So, for instance, when people start talking about Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, and the golden tablets in upstate New York, and God assumes the shape of a man, do you not get hung up in those theological issues?
OSTEEN: I probably don't get hung up in them because I haven't really studied them or thought about them. And you know, I just try to let God be the judge of that. I mean, I don't know. I certainly can't say that I agree with everything that I've heard about it, but from what I've heard from Mitt, when he says that Christ is his savior, to me that's a common bond.

How, if at all, will this help Mitt Romney? What did Osteen say about Huckabee? What does my Mom think about all of this? After the jump.
This is interesting to me, because it can cut several ways. Osteen is very popular, and very influential with a large number of evangelical Christians. A statement like this could knock some people off the fence about Romney. On the other hand, Osteen gets some criticism from theologians who doubt his credibility as a preacher, and people like that might be unmoved.
To me, the fact that the question was even asked is ridiculous. In fairness to Osteen, he says elsewhere in the interview that faith is a factor, but not the only factor. I agree with him there. If the Jets get a great Quarterback in the draft, I don't care if he worships Magilla Gorilla. Conversely, it would be nice if our next president were a Jets fan, but I'm not gonna switch my vote over it. (Okay, maybe I will.)
Wallace asks Osteen about Mike Huckabee, too, and I'll include the exchange and get back to it later.

WALLACE: So in that sense, what do you make of Mike Huckabee, a Southern Baptist pastor who's doing so well and, in effect, using his faith as part of his platform?

OSTEEN: Well, you know what? I like Mike Huckabee. I've never met him. My brother's from Little Rock and he knows him and says he's a fine man. And so I like what he stands for.
From what I've seen, I don't think he's overdone it. I think he's just - you know, he's a Baptist pastor. That's in him. And I think he's just standing up for what he believes in.

In this post on my Mom's blog, Lady of Light, she kinda takes Joel to the woodshed a little. She made me promise to say that she loves Joel Osteen, and makes her criticism lovingly. She makes some very interesting points about Osteen's response.
When asked about his lack of formal bible education, Joel mentioned that the disciples didn't have a formal education and they were chosen by Jesus. While it is true that the disciples didn't have formal bible education, we must remember that they walked with Jesus, himself, and if they had any questions, they could ask him directly. Today, we rely on God's word and those who are knowledgeable in God's word to guide us and help us to formulate sound doctrine and beliefs. In the book of Timothy, Paul exhorted Timothy to
"Study and show thyself approved, a workman who need not be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH.: (2 Timothy2:15)

The common bond of salvation that Joel Osteen acknowledges with Mitch Romney is important but sloughing off the validity of the doctrine of the Mormons, which differs from other Christian Churches is not following in the example which was given to young Timothy as a Pastor of the early church. Paul continues to tell Timothy in 2 Timothy Chapter 4:1-2:
"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; PREACH THE WORD INSTANT IN SEASON AND OUT OF SEASON: REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT WITH ANN LONGSUFFERING AND DOCTRINE..."

While Joel Osteen may have a special calling, it is important to know that he has a concern for sound doctrine as well because in our everyday life we don't want to be "tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men..." (Ephesians 4:14) as the bible warns. I don't think a person needs a Doctorate for that - they just need to believe that the bible is the word of God and find out what it teaches. I know Joel Osteen believes that the bible is the Word of God ...where does it speak of these things that are mentioned about the doctrine of the Mormons?
It's a great point that I've often wondered about regarding religions in general. If everybody's "saved", what's the point of having different doctrines, and if you believe yours is correct, how can you believe others are "saved"? Her point is that Osteen was correct to say that Mitt is "really a Christian", but that he should have pointed out the importance of doctrine to each church.

As for Osteen's remarks about Huckabee, I see in them either a complete disinterest in the topic, or a damnation with faint praise, I can't decide. "My brother likes him"? I think that Osteen's responses here bespeak an appropriate disinterest in the "world of men". Later in the transcript, Wallace asks Osteen why he doesn't weigh in often on topics like "gays or abortion."

"And I even heard Billy Graham say this, and I think it's true. Sometimes when you take strong stands, if you're not called to do it, you're dividing the audience you're trying to reach.
I'm trying to throw a big net out there to say to anyone that God loves them and he's in control. And I think the moment - even our church is so diverse. We have Republicans, Democrats, independents.

And I think the moment I start saying, "Well, go this route," well, this group's going to just say, 'I'm not going to listen to him because of the political stance.'"
Whatever you think of Osteen as a preacher, it's hard to argue with that point. I think ultimately, this will help Romney, even if it shouldn't.
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Mormonism - Christian or Cult?

Mormonism
Christian* or Cult?#

Mormonism, known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (with headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah -- a state that is now 70% Mormon), was officially founded in 1830 by Joseph Smith Jr. (1805-1844). Smith claimed to have had a personal visit from God the Father at the age of 15, who introduced him to Christ.1 Jesus then supposedly told him not to join any church because they were all wrong and all the Christian church's doctrines "were an abomination" (Joseph Smith -- History 19, Pearl of Great Price). After Smith's murder in 1844, Brigham Young took the cult to Utah, where there is now a major University named after him, and the number of Mormons exceed one million. The Mormon Church currently claims about 11 million baptized members worldwide (5.2 million U.S., ranking it 5th among the largest 25 U.S. denominations), up from about 2.5 million in 1970. 1970. Over the last decade, nearly 300,000 individuals over the age of eight have joined the Mormon Church every year. Membership is expected to grow to over 23 million over the next two decades. It is growing fastest in Latin America and Asia. Official publications include Church News, a weekly 16-page newspaper, and the Ensign, a monthly magazine.

The Mormon Church collects at least $6 billion a year from its members, and generates at least another $5 billion in sales from its various business enterprises; total church assets exceed $30 billion. (At least 100 companies are controlled by the Mormon Church, and some estimate its total annual revenues in excess of $20 billion! The church also owns 18 radio stations in the U.S.) Part of the Church's income goes to operate an elaborate internal welfare system so its members avoid any governmental assistance. The Mormon Church also has a 58,000-plus missionary force working in more than 160 nations in 102 languages. The Church's Provo, Utah, 26-acre Missionary Training Center receives 500 new missionaries a week into its 3-9 week intensive missionary training program. (All boys, once they turn 19, are expected to dedicate two years of their lives to missionary service.) Fielding missionaries is a $500 million per year effort and currently reaps more than 300,000 new converts each year. Nevertheless, only about 46% of Mormons attend a church meeting at least once a month. (The clean-cut image that Mormons have attained has been a major factor in the attractiveness of the Mormon Church to outsiders. They are forbidden to drink coffee, tea, and alcoholic beverages, and use tobacco products.)
The Mormon church (LDS) is organized so that one prophet leads the church. Beneath the prophet in authority is the Council of the Twelve Apostles. A third group of men are called the First and Second Councils of the Seventy. All of these men together are called the General Authorities. Local churches are called Wards or Stake Centers and meet for worship in what the Mormons call "meetinghouses." The Temples are not for worship, but are used for ceremonies for the living and the dead. Less than ten percent of all LDS members are allowed to enter these structures.

As of year-end 2002, there were 114 operating temples of Mormondom worldwide, with another 14 under construction or approved (albeit less elaborate than the 50 temples in existence at the end of 1997). (Approximately 65,000 members must be in an immediate area to qualify for a temple.) Temples are required for Mormon marriages and for proxy baptisms of ancestors. Most people assume Mormon temples are places of worship. This is not true. Only secret, occult rituals for the living and the dead are performed there, and Mormons think they must perform them to have eternal life. It is tragic that over eleven million Mormons think they need secret handshakes, oaths, incantations, and rituals, which originated in occultic Scottish Rite Freemasonry, in order to be with God in heaven! (In the final years of Joseph Smith Jr.'s life, he became a "worshipful master" in the Masonic Lodge.)

Many today are under the false impression that Mormonism is merely another Christian denomination, when in actuality, Mormon beliefs are not only unbiblical, but anti-Christian. Below are the highlights of what Mormons believe concerning their source of authority, the Trinity, God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, sin, salvation, and heaven and hell:

1. Source of Authority. Mormonism teaches that the canon of Scripture was not closed when the Bible was completed. They have three sources in addition to the Bible, all of which they believe contain God's revelations -- the Book of Mormon 2 (changed in more than 4,000 places since 1830), Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. However, Mormons follow the teachings of these three books even when they contradict the Bible. For example, Mormonism teaches that the Bible is the Word of God "as far as it is translated correctly." Then whenever a Mormon belief contradicts Scripture, the Mormons say that particular part of Scripture is translated incorrectly, and that the correct translation is in one of the Mormon scriptures (The Maze of Mormonism, p. 131). Thereby, the Bible is rejected as the infallible Word of God. [e.g. "The Bible is considered usable, but suspect due to its many errors and missing parts" (Articles of Faith No. 8, Ensign, January 1989, pp. 25, 27).
2. Trinity. Mormonism teaches polytheism (versus monotheism taught in the Bible), believing that the universe is inhabited by many gods who produce spirit children. Joseph Smith declared, "I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370). Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie spoke about the Godhead in this way, "Plurality of Gods: Three separate personages: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods" (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 576-577).

3. God. In Mormon theology, the god of our planet is believed to have once been a man on another planet, who through self-effort and the help of his own father-god, was appointed by a counsel of gods in the heavens to his high position as the god of planet Earth, and now has a physical, resurrected, glorified body. Mormonism teaches that through the atonement of Christ and by their good deeds and "holy" living, men can one day become gods, and with their multiplicity of "goddess wives," populate their own planets. (This is what the celestial marriage and the Mormon temple vows are all about.) Mormon theology, therefore, humanizes God and deifies man.3

4. Christ. Mormonism acknowledges the divinity of Christ, but as noted above, Mormon doctrine on what constitutes divinity falls seriously short of the Biblical standard. Mormonism teaches that Jesus, Lucifer, and all the demons, as well as all mankind, are actually all spirit brothers and sisters, born in the spirit world as spirit babies to our man-god Heavenly Father and his goddess wives. Mormon leaders have consistently taught that God the Father ("Adam-god") had sexual relations on earth with Mary (his own spirit daughter), to produce the physical body of Jesus. Early Mormon apostles also asserted that Christ was a polygamist, and that His wives included Mary and Martha (the sisters of Lazarus) and Mary Magdalene.4
5. Holy Spirit. In Mormonism, a distinction is drawn between the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit. As LDS Apostle Marion G. Romney stated: "The Holy Ghost is a person, a spirit, the third member of the Godhead" (Ensign, May 1977, pp. 43-44). The sixth LDS prophet, Joseph F. Smith, explains that the Holy Spirit is not a person but rather an impersonal force: "You may call it the Spirit of God, you may call it the influence of God's intelligence, you may call it the substance of his power; no matter what it is called, it is the spirit of intelligence that permeates the universe" (Mormon Doctrine, McConkie, pp. 752-753).

6. Sin. In Mormon theology, it is not quite clear how the first humans, Adam and Eve, came to live on this earth and received bodies, but somehow they did and began the process of human procreation, whereby bodies are produced for their spirit children. But at the very beginning of the process of human generation, sin entered necessarily. The earthly bodies of Adam and Eve were intended to be immortal tabernacles for their spirits, "but it was necessary for them to possess through mortality and be redeemed through the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ that the fullness of life might come." Therefore, they disobeyed God's commands. Since the fall of man was necessary, it became necessary for men to disobey God in order to do His will. Adam's fall, thereby, was a fall "upward."5 Concerning the transmission of sin to Adam's posterity, Mormons take a negative position -- they believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. Having rejected the doctrine of the imputation of the guilt of sin, Latter-Day Saints likewise repudiate the transmission of inherent corruption or original sin.

7. Salvation. Mormon theology teaches that the atonement of Christ was essential to our salvation and eternal life with God, but that it is not sufficient. Christ's shed blood on the cross provides for universal resurrection of all people, but does not pay for personal sins; according to Mormonism, only Christ's blood shed in the Garden of Gethsemane atones for personal sin. Besides faith in Christ, complete and permanent repentance of all sin as well as many good works are required.6 Mormonism also teaches that one must be baptized in water to be saved (baptismal regeneration), and that salvation will also be available in the next world for those "missing-out" in this one. Therefore, Mormons avidly pursue genealogy and practice baptism for the dead.7

8. Heaven and Hell. Mormonism teaches that there are three degrees of glory: Celestial (for good Mormons able to cease sinning in this lifetime -- see endnote #6 below), Terrestrial (for good people who do not comply with all the teachings of Mormonism), and Telestial (for those who have lived unclean earthly lives). (See also Mormon Doctrines, p. 348.) Mormonism teaches that there is a hell, but only for the "sons of perdition," a very small number of souls that cannot be redeemed. According to Mormonism, then, the vast majority of mankind will be "saved," though it should be obvious that no one will make it to the Celestial Kingdom. [Blacks used to be totally out of the equation: "Black people are black because of their misdeeds in the pre-existence" (Three Degrees of Glory, LDS Apostle Melvin J. Ballard, p. 21); "The Negro is an unfortunate man. He has been given a black skin. But that is nothing compared with that greater handicap. He is not permitted to receive the priesthood and the ordinances of the temple, necessary to prepare men and women to enter into and enjoy a fullness of glory in the Celestial Kingdom" (Elder George E. Richards). In 1978, however, the Mormon Church announced that God had lifted his curse from the African race.]

9. Temple Rituals. A typical temple ceremony would take place as follows: "The ritual began in a small cubicle where we had to strip completely. We then put on 'the shield,' a poncho with a hole for the head, but open on the sides (similar to a hospital gown). We went through a series of 'washings and anointings,' as various parts of our bodies were touched by elderly temple workers who mumbled appropriate incantations over them. Our Mormon underwear, 'the garments,' are said to have powers to protect us from 'the evil one.' It had occult markings, which were so 'sacred' that we were instructed to burn them when the garments wore out. The endowment ceremony mocked all doctrines held to by Biblical Christianity, and Christian pastors were portrayed as servants of Satan. We had to swear many blood oaths, promising we would forfeit our lives if we weren't faithful, or if we revealed any of the secrets revealed to us in the temple ceremonies. We were made to pretend by grotesque gestures to cut our throats, chests, and abdomens, indicating how we would lose our lives. We were never told who would kill us! The inference was, and history testifies to, that it would be the Mormon priesthood." (Testimony of a former Mormon.) [Note: The blood oaths and portrayal of Christian pastors were removed in April of 1990, despite the fact that the ordinance was purported to have been given originally by a revelation and was never to be changed.]
10. More from the Mouths of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
Joseph Smith
"God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me to be God to you in His stead, and the elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it" (Documentary History of the Church, vol. 6, pp 319-320).

"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I" (D.H C., vol. 6, p. 408-409).

"The whole Earth shall bear me witness that I, like the towering rock in the midst of the ocean, which has withstood the mighty surges of the warring waves for centuries, am impregnable ... I combat the errors of ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the gordian knot of powers, and I solve mathematical problems of universities, with truth -- diamond truth; and God is my right hand man." (D.H.C., Vol. 6, p. 78).

"And I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted and there will not be so much as a potsherd left, ..." (D.H C., vol. 5, p. 394). [This prophecy was made in May of 1843, and the United States government has not been overthrown and wasted.]

"Here then is eternal life -- to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you..." (Teachings of the Prophet, Joseph Smith, p. 346).

"In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it" (Ibid., p. 349).

"The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead" [Our God of the Bible has forbidden us to have anything to do with the dead (Deut. 18:10,11).

Brigham Young

"I have never yet preached a sertuon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good a scripture" (Journa1 of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 95; also see vol. 13, p. 264).

"I say, rather than the apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath my Bowie knife, and conquer or die. [Great commotion in the congregation, and a simultaneous burst of feeling, assenting to the declaration.] Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put on the line ... If you say it is right, raise your hands [All hands up], let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 83)

"I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins ... This is loving our neighbor as ourselves, if he needs help, help him, and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 220). [Many were killed under what is called the "Blood Atonement Doctrine" Leaving Mormonism was one of the sins that the blood of Jesus could not atone for, and a person's own blood must be shed by Mormon priests as an atonement for sin.]

"I intend to meet them on their own grounds. ... and if any miserable scoundrel comes here, cut their throats." [And they obeyed; a wagon train of innocent men, women, and children were massacred at Mountain Meadows under the orders of Brigham Young. They were passing through Utah, and Brigham thought they were from Illinois where Joseph Smith had been killed. Many more were "atoned."]

"Gold and silver grow, and so does every other kind of metal, the same as the hair upon my head or the wheat in the field; ..." (JOD., vol. 1, p. 219).

"Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the Moon? ... So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the Sun. Do you not think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No Question of it; it was not made in vain." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 219).

"Do you think we shall ever be admitted as a State into the Union without denying the principal of polygamy? If we are not admitted until then, we shall never be admitted." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269). [The Edmunds Act was passed in 1882 forbidding polygamy in the territory, and only then was Utah allowed to enter the Union. At that point the LDS church officially gave up polygamy. Another false prophecy from the Mormon prophet!]

"I think these preliminaries will satisfy me, and I feel prepared to take my text. It is the words of Jesus Christ, but where they are in the Bible I cannot tell you now, for I have not taken pains to look at them. I have had so much to do, that I have not read the Bible for many years. I used to read and study it, but did not understand the spirit and meaning of it ..." (1854 Conference discourse, October 8). [Brigham Young obviously did not understand the Bible, and neither do any of the other Mormon prophets!]

* In recent years, Mormon leaders, including the church's modern-day "Prophet," Gordon B. Hinckley, have sought to align the LDS' public teachings and practices with those of politically correct, global ecumenicism. But it is only until recently that Mormons wanted to be called "Christians," preferring not to be included with Christian denominations, which Joseph Smith Jr. said were, "all wrong ... all their creeds were an abomination in His sight, and that those professors (Christians) were all corrupt" (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, 2:18-19); Mormons have preferred to be called "saints." However, in the recent years, the LDS church has spent millions of dollars in an intense "PR" campaign aimed at moving the Mormon church into the mainstream of Christianity. The political and economic benefits of Mormons being included in the mainstream of Christianity are obvious. Further, for Mormons to be accepted as traditional Christians would greatly aid in proselytizing the members of Christian denominations into the LDS church. This is why the LDS church is trying so hard to present itself as Christian and is trying to overcome the stigma of being a cult (9/16/96, FBIS, "Are Mormons Christians," by Cooper P. Abrams III). Moreover, Mormons let it be known in early-2001 that they no longer wanted to be referred to as "the Mormon Church," "the Latter-day Saints Church," or by "LDS Church." If the name must be shortened, "the Church of Jesus Christ," or "the Church" is acceptable, they said (3/19/01, USN&WR). [Back to Top]

# This report has been excerpted and/or adapted from two sources: (1) "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," Rick Branch (Watchman Fellowship Profile, 1993); and (2) Examining & Exposing Cultic & Occultic Movements, Jack Sin, "What is Wrong with Mormonism," April 2000, pp. 21-25.
Endnotes

1 The Bible lists six identifying marks of false prophets, any one of which is sufficient for identification: (1) through signs and wonders they lead astray after false gods (Dt. 13:1-4); (2) their prophecies don't come to pass (Dt. 18:20-22); (3) they contradict God's Word (Isa. 8:20); (4) they bear bad fruit (Mt. 7:18-20); (5) men speak well of them (Lk. 6:26); and (6) they deny that Jesus, the one and only Christ, has come once and for all in the flesh (1 Jn. 4:3), thereby denying His sufficiency in all matters of life and godliness (2 Pe. 1:3). Most cults are founded upon false prophecies, which, if pointed out, offer an effective way to open blind eyes and rescue cultists. Mormonism boasts of its prophets -- but they have all been false. In the course of 18 years, founding prophet Joseph Smith made 64 specific prophecies. Only six of them were fulfilled -- fewer than 10 percent. Many of his proclamations dealt with the future of his church. For example, in August of 1831 he stated that God had told him, "The faithful among you shall be preserved and rejoice together in the land of Missouri." In September of 1832, he stated that the city of Independence would become the "New Jerusalem ... even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation." Six years later the Mormons were driven out of Independence. No temple was built there. Eventually they were driven from Missouri and settled in Utah. In 1833, Smith prophesied that the United States would suffer unparalleled multiple disasters ("pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake") which would sweep the wicked (non-Mormons) off the land, leaving Mormons safe in their Zion haven in Missouri. Instead, they fled to Utah. Among Smith's many other false prophecies was the declaration in 1835 that Christ would return within 56 years and many living then would "not taste of death till Christ comes" (History of the Church [Vol. 2], p. 182; [Vol. 5], p. 336). Smith's successor, Brigham Young, prophesied that the Civil War would not free the slaves. [Back to Text]

2 The Book of Mormon, purported by Joseph Smith Jr. to be "inspired by God," is the most famous of specifically Mormon "scriptures." Smith concocted the preposterous yarn that an angel named Moroni (pronounced ma-roe-nee) appeared to him in 1827 and told him of some golden plates hidden in a hillside near Palmyra, New York. From these plates, Smith supposedly translated the Book of Mormon. [Published in 1830, this was to become the first of many scriptures for the Mormon Church. By this time, Smith had also officially organized the LDS Church and was gaining a following. Over the next ten years, the church headquarters would move to Kirtland, Ohio; Independence, Missouri, and Far West, Missouri. Finally it would find a resting place in Nauvoo, Illinois.] In actuality, the Book of Mormon is a fraud, having been plagiarized from the Bible, from Shakespeare, from the pope's Essays on Man, from the Westminster Confession of Faith, and from other leading authors of the last few hundred years prior to Smith's death. Despite its plagiarisms, the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible in hundreds of places (9/95, Maranatha Baptist Watchman). [Back to Text]
3 Joseph Smith explained, "I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did" (LDS History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 305). "The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fullness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over the world, and the world will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this" (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 48). [Back to Text]
4 Brigham Young stated, "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood, was begotten of his Father, as we were of our father" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 115). Mormon Apostle McConkie explained, "And Christ was born into the world as a literal Son this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. He was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events (Mormon Doctrine, p. 742). Jesus, according to Milton Hunter of the LDS First Council of the Seventy, is the brother of Lucifer: "The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer, son of the morning. Haughty, ambitious, and covetous of power and glory, this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind" (The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15). [Back to Text]
5 On June 8, 1873, speaking from the Salt Lake City Tabernacle, Brigham Young said, "The Devil told the truth ... I do not blame Mother Eve. I would not have had her miss eating the forbidden fruit for anything. ..." Another Mormon president declared, "The fall of man came as a blessing in disguise... We can hardly look upon anything resulting in such benefits [i.e., godhood] as a sin." Incredibly, Mormonism is based upon the belief that Satan's central lie is the gospel truth! [Back to Text]

6 See: (1) Book of Mormon: 3 Nephi 27:13-27; Moroni 10:32-33; Mosiah 15:26-27; Alma 12:14-28; 34:32-35; 1 Nephi 3:7; (2) Doctrine & Covenants: 14:7; 58:42-43; and (3) Miracle of Forgiveness (Kimball): pp. 206-210, 313-315, 321-322, 354-355. [Back to Text]
7 Mormons believe that everyone who lives and dies on this earth goes to a place called the Spirit Prison, except faithful Mormons, who go to Paradise. Mormon Spirit Missionaries go down from Paradise to the Spirit Prison and teach the Gospel of Joseph Smith to the lost Christians and others there. Those who accept Mormonism must remain in prison until a worthy Mormon performs certain essential rituals, called "Ordinances," for them in one of the Mormon Temples. Then they are released from Spirit Prison to join the Mormons in Paradise. Since these rituals or Ordinances require a physical body to be washed, anointed, baptized, etc., they can only be performed by a living person in the place and manner prescribed by Deity, acting under Universal (Mormon) cosmic laws. [Back to Text]
The Other Mormon Church# (RLDS)
(Community of Christ)

We are often asked about the "other Mormon church" that is headquartered in Independence, Missouri. The questions vary from: "are they a cult?" to "what is the difference between them and the Utah Mormons?"

The answer to the first is easy. YES, they are a cult.

The answer to the second is a bit more complicated. The RLDS (Reorganized Latter Day Saints) actually had its start after the assassination of Joseph Smith Jr., the founder and prophet of all LDS churches. After his death in 1844, there were many men who rose up and declared themselves to be the true prophet to replace Smith. Many of these new "prophets" began their own version of the "only true church." In fact, there have been over 100 distinct groups claiming to be the church that would end all controversy about the "restored" gospel. The RLDS is the largest of these spin-off groups.

When Brigham Young led most of the "saints" to the Salt Lake Valley in Utah, several leaders, who did not accept Smith's revelation on polygamy, branched off and formed the RLDS church. One of these men, Jason Briggs, who had been an elder in the LDS church in Nauvoo, Illinois, had his own revelation that Joseph Smith III (Joseph Jr.'s son) was the one to rightfully assume the mantle of "prophet." He, along with about 300 others, followed Emma Smith (Joseph Jr.'s first and only non-polygamous wife), to Independence, Missouri. At first, Joseph Smith III refused to take on the job of prophet, but he later relented and became the official head of the RLDS church on April 6, 1860. Its official publications are the monthly magazine Saints Herald and the bimonthly Restoration Witness.
Similar to most other churches which claim Joseph Smith Jr. as their founder, the RLDS Church is led by a Prophet and his counselors. These men are known collectively as the First Presidency. In addition, the RLDS Church has a Council of Twelve Apostles. There are lesser offices in the RLDS Church such as Bishops, Elders, etc. An RLDS Fundamentalist or Restorationist is one who believes the Book of Mormon is historically and theologically accurate. They also believe the RLDS Church, as defined by Joseph Smith III, is the only true church.

Since its founding, each RLDS prophet had to be a descendent of Joseph Smith Jr. This was not a problem until Prophet Wallace B. Smith failed to produce a male heir. But, the god of the RLDS was not to be foiled by this unfortunate turn of events; he "revealed" to Wallace in 1984 that it was now acceptable for women to hold the Mormon priesthood. Since Wallace does have daughters, it seemed likely that the next prophet of the RLDS church would be a prophetess. However, Wallace B. Smith retired several years ago, and for the first time in the church's history, a person not in direct lineage of Joseph Smith was appointed to be president -- Grant McMurray.

Strange as it may seem, the RLDS church has built its doctrinal statement on points of disagreement with the doctrine of the Utah Mormons. Unlike the Utah Mormons, they do not accept polygamy, marriage for time and eternity, that men can become gods, and blood atonement as taught by Joseph Smith Jr. Rather, they blame all these errors on Brigham Young. Here they had to change history, because both Young and Smith practiced and taught those things, semi-secretly until Smith's death. Later, Young taught all this in public without blushing. But, the RLDSs have plenty of heresies of their own.

Historically, the RLDS has taught the following doctrines:
The RLDS versions of the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants are considered to be scripture. They also accept Joseph Smith's rewritten version of the Bible, the Inspired Version [I.V.], as scripture.
Complete apostasy of the early Christian church (Fundamentals, F. Henry Edwards, pp. 175-210).
Joseph Smith Jr. was a prophet who restored God's church (D&C 1:4a and 1:5d-e).
Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods were restored (History of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Vol. 1, pp. 34-35).
Baptism for the remission of sins (D&C 39:2a-b, 16:4e).
Zion will be established in, and Jesus will return to, Independence, Missouri (I.V. of Gen. 7:20-25, D&C 57, Times and Seasons, Vol. 3, p. 710).
Heaven has three levels (D&C 76:5-7).
Those who do not hear the RLDS gospel in this life will have another opportunity in the next (D&C 76:6c).

Of the Holy Spirit, Kurt Goedelman of Personal Freedom Outreach, writes, "While it is easy to find stated that the Father and Son are regarded as persons in RLDS literature, it is difficult to find references to the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost) as a person. Rather, He is mainly regarded as 'the living power and presence of God'" (Quarterly Journal, Vol. 8, No. 1, p. 7).
Unlike the Mormon Church, most RLDS members view the Book of Mormon as a 19th century product (Position Papers, pp. 103-112). The RLDS version of the Doctrine and Covenants also contains additional and different revelations than will be found in the Mormon version. In addition, they do not use the Pearl of Great Price as do the Utah Mormons.
In recent years, the RLDS Church has avoided viewing the Restoration of the Church as an actual historical event. In a speech given at the First Presidency Meetings in 1979, it was stated, "When we are honest about our own personal and corporate history, we realize that the apostasy and the Restoration were not events that happened one time in history but rather are processes continually at work among us" (Presidential Papers, p. 28). Thus, by denying the Restoration was an actual historical event, the RLDS Church has undermined the very foundation upon which all of Joseph Smith Jr.'s later work depends and, thereby, undermining their own foundation.
Even these RLDS' doctrines that had been cast in stone are giving way to modern day liberalism and New Age thinking. Paul Edwards, the dean of the Park College Graduate School of Religion and Temple School Center director, has stated that each member must look to his or her own existential experience for a basis of truth. They should not base their beliefs on the Bible or even the Book of Mormon, for each individual must form his own belief founded on his experiences. The Bible is considered a springboard for each person to form his or her own theology without help from any authority. Here is a quote from Edwards: "One of the most important needs for RLDS people today is to look existentially at primary experiences as the starting point for their theological activity." (Emphasis ours.)
Simply stated, Edwards is advocating that each individual view theological truths from a personal, subjective perspective, rather than from an historical, objective perspective. Instead of beginning with the Bible, or even RLDS scripture, such as the Book of Mormon and/or Doctrine and Covenants, the RLDS dean of theology recommends that each believer looks to his or her own existential experience for a basis of truth. Based on this idea, it would be difficult for the RLDS hierarchy to adopt any single Statement of Faith; for each individual would interpret those beliefs in his own existential way.
Echoing Edwards' views, Anthony Chvala-Smith, who received his Ph.D. from Marquette University, "explained there can be no 'perennial theology, only a theology of wayfarers'" (Ibid., p. 9). Thus, each believer in the RLDS religion is left to stumble in darkness, making their own way through the maze, with no help from higher authorities.
Finally, Robert Mesle, professor of religion at Graceland, in speaking about the place of the Bible in RLDS theology, stated, "We need to be teaching our young people to be responsible, discriminating readers of scripture (who) use scripture as a springboard not a trap" (Ibid.). In RLDS theology, the Bible is simply a beginning point for the individual's personal theology. The important source for theological truth is not God's word, but rather that subjective, existential experience. It is felt by many cult researchers that this ambiguity of doctrine may be due, in part, to both the on-going controversy between Fundamentalists and Liberals within the RLDS Church and the church's tendency to reflect the latest social trends.

________________

#This article ("The Other Mormon Church -- RLDS") as been excerpted and/or adapted from an article in the January 1997 Mount Carmel Outreach newsletter; and from "Reorganized Church of Latter Day Saints," Craig Branch (Watchman Fellowship Profile, 1996[?]). On April 7, 2000, members of the RLDS voted at its world conference to go by a new name: Community of Christ. The new name took effect April 6, 2001. [Back to Top of RLDS]

_______ posted on 2008-01-13 13:41:29 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
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Joel Osteen - What's Wrong With His Preaching?

"By Cobblestone Road Ministries"
We do not know Joel Osteen personally. He seems like a nice man and he even seems very sincere and no doubt fervently believes in what he is preaching. But one can be sincere and be sincerely wrong.

He has been rebuked by many within Evangelical and Christian Fundamental circles for the very reason that he does not stick to just the preaching of the Word. It is not so much what he is preaching but rather what he is NOT preaching. The entire Word of God must be preached. Where is the Gospel? Where is the preaching of Jesus as Savior? The Lord Jesus died to save us from our SINS-- Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Joel Osteen says that he does not want to condemn anybody. Well, we are not supposed to condemn anybody. We are to preach the Good News that Jesus died to save us from our sins-- and that there is eternal damnation awaiting those who die in their sins. We cannot compromise Scripture or candy coat the SIN PROBLEM which exists.

One can paint daisies on a pig but in the end, a pig is a pig. We cannot candy coat sin and try to preach around it. Jesus did not die to give us a luxury car;
nor did He die to make us successful. Jesus died for
OUR SINS. Matthew 1:21 says, And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The Bible says in Revelation 21:8, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and
all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Well, that includes everyone then because all have lied at least once. God cannot have sin in His Holy presence. This is why Jesus died for us...to redeem us and to wash our sins away by His precious shed blood. The Bible says in 1John 3:5 And ye know that he [Jesus] was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. The bible also

tells us in 1Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God..." Hebrews 9:12 tells us that Jesus "by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."

Now, where is this preached in Joel Osteen's "success" type sermons? Many successful people pour into hell everyday. Many successful people die in their sins for they did not receive Jesus as their Savior. We all need a Savior to save us from our sins. This is why Jesus came. This is why we have received Him
as Savior. Whenever one forgets this is the
primary message, he has gone into the way of apostasy.

THE GOSPEL IS NOT A CONDEMNING MESSAGE

Joel Osteen said on Larry King Live, "The Gospel called the good news. My message is a message of hope, that's God's for you. You can live a good life

no matter what's happened to you." Herein lies the danger in such a statement. God is NOT for the sinner. God is righteous and holy. He sent His only begotten Son to die for us and to rise again because He loves us but God hates sin.

A person cannot even live a good life apart from Christ. All our righteousness
is found in Christ. He clothes us with His righteousness. We cannot change.
All of our righteousness is as filthy rags, the bible says.

John 3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING INTERVIEW CLIP OF THE LARRY KING SHOW:

Larry King: "You don't call them sinners?"

Joel Oteen: "I don't."

Larry King: "Is that a word you don't use?"

Joel Osteen: "I don't use it. I never thought about it. But I probably don't. But most people already know what they're doing wrong. When I get them to church I want to tell them that you can change. There can be a difference in your life. So I don't go down the
road of condemning."

No, Joel, one cannot change-- that is why one has to be born again. Outside of Christ Jesus, a person is a poor wretched sinner on his way to hell. It is Christ alone who changes us once we receive Him as Savior. We cannot transform ourselves-- it is God alone who transforms us once we have received His Son!
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Is the Gospel message a condemning one? No! The Lord Jesus said that those who did not believe on Him are condemned already. But John 1:12 says,
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name". So the good news is that Jesus saves. It is not a condemning message but rather the ONLY good message preached to a dying world-- a world that is already condemned because of its sin. GOOD NEWS IS THAT JESUS DIED FOR SINNERS....this is what the Bible says!!

We are to preach John 3:18...a verse MANY today have forgotten.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in
the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joel Osteen has been openly admonished by Evangelicals and Fundamentalists for blending his own philosophy--with jokes and humor and just throws choice scriptures in between a "sermon". With a very large church attendance such as his, we would pray that he would get on the straight and narrow and "study to shew thyself approved"so that he would better lead his congregation into the fundamentals of the Word.

In this day and age of apostasy, it is important for a pastor to stay true to the fundamentals of the faith for when the foundations of our faith are lost...where will the church be? Jesus said that when He returns; "shall I even find faith
on the earth?" So we know that faith will be scarce upon the earth in the Last Days.

The world is moving into a "universal faith" with a generic god and a "positive message" that removes the preaching of the Cross of Christ, removes hell, salvation, the blood of Jesus and even renounces the deity of Christ. Shall there be any faith found upon the earth when everything worth believing in is taken away? The Bible says that faith comes by HEARING the Word of God.

EARNESTLY CONTEND FOR THE FAITH

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

The Bible clearly admonishes us to "Earnestly contend for the faith." We are
to beware of false doctrines and to be aware of the spiritual dangers that await the unsuspecting Christian who has little or no discernment. Joel Osteen views
these particular Evangelicals and Fundamentalists who speak against his "gospel light" sermons as "critics". But what must be realized is that it has nothing to do with him but rather what he is preaching and what his kind of preaching leads to...ecumenism, new age ideas like "God and you" but our bible says that it is "Christ alone" which performs the good work in and through us.

We would rejoice at the success of his church if he were preaching the Gospel and teaching the Word of God...the deep things found within Scripture but
sadly he is on a dangerous path, as we shall explain. One website described his ministry as "MegaChurch and miniGospel".

Joel Osteen views his message as "positive" and it most certainly is but in the REAL world, there is good AND evil. The Bible speaks much about hell, the devil, the evil of this age and the spiritual battle that the Christian is in.

Congregations are to be taught the DANGERS of following false teachers and the dangers of not adhering strictly to Scripture. The Bible is not to be picked apart and pieced together to fit our own ideas. Christians should NOT be well liked by this world. Jesus said, "You will be hated for my name's sake."

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Lord Jesus said in John 3:20, For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Yet Joel Osteen's church is growing by leaps and bounds. It is a place where most can feel very comfortable. Everyone leaves feeling good about themselves and their "purpose". The Word of God warns us in 2Timothy 4:3-4
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Today, there are many pastors who are preaching what their congregations WANT to hear rather than what God's Word says to preach. The message the preacher delivers should be one of repentance. No one likes to hear the word, "repentance".

BE NOT DECEIVED

One cannot just preach the "positive" but rather one must rightly divide the
Word of Truth and preach the WHOLE WORD OF GOD. There is a devil. The bible says that he walks about seeking whom he may devour. Satan appears as an angel of light-- which means he is out to deceive and he is the master of deception. The Bible admonishes CHRISTIANS to be sober and vigilant. It is the Christian the Bible is warning:

1Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: How will the congregations across America recognize evil devices if they are not instructed in the Word of God?

If a vicious lion from the Houston Zoo were to get loose and run into Joel Osteen's church, would not everyone inside run for cover? Would there be a "feel good" positive response? Absolutely not! Every "dream your dream" type sermon and "fulfill your potential" sermon would not remedy the lion running through the isles. Yet the devil walks about in the spiritual realm seeking those he may devour. Just because you can't see him does not mean he does not
exist. The devil is out to destroy the sheep; he wants to destroy the faith of
the sheep. Since faith comes by hearing the Word of God, satan has made it

his goal to twist Scripture. His desire is the removal of scripture from the foundation of the sermon; he instead wants scripture as merely an "addition to" a man-made sermon.

THE DEVIL IS RELIGIOUS

The devil is religious. He doesn't mind if you read a verse here or there but he does not want you to really READ the Word-- for when a person Reads the Bible, they find the truth.

The devil rewrites God's Word..."Yea, hath God said?"
The devil is a POSITIVE PREACHER..."You won't die...your eyes will be opened, you will be like gods" is his theme among many "Christians" today,
just as it was with Eve in the garden of evil.

Christians now say, "Oh I don't believe in all that hell and damnation stuff. I
am into positive Christianity." Yet the Bible is specific in stating that there is a Lake of Fire and the bible is specific in stating that whosoever was not found

in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire.

Consider what Joel Osteen said on July 3, 2005, during an interview on Larry King:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0507/03/lkl.01.html

KING: But you're not fire and brimstone, right? You're not pound the decks and hell and dam nation?

OSTEEN: No. That's not me. It's never been me. I've always been an encourager at heart. And when I took over from my father he came from the Southern Baptist background and back 40, 50 years ago there was a lot more of that. But, you know, I just -- I don't believe in that. I don't believe -- maybe it was for a time. But I don't have it in my heart to condemn people. I'm there to encourage them. I see myself more as a coach, as a motivator to help them experience the life God has for us.

KING: But don't you think if people don't believe as you believe, they're somehow condemned?

OSTEEN: You know, I think that happens in our society. But I try not to do that. I tell people all the time, preached a couple Sundays about it. I'm for everybody. You may not agree with me, but to me it's not my job to try to straighten everybody out. The Gospel called the good news. My message is a message of hope, that's God's for you. You can live a good life no matter what's happened to you. And so I don't know. I know there is condemnation but I don't feel that's my place.

Well, if a pastor of 30,000 + doesn't feel its his place to literally tell his sheep about hell and what the Bible says, who on earth will tell them? Joel Osteen seemed a bit nervous when asked about his beliefs:

KING: Do you share Billy's beliefs of life after death in a sense of going somewhere?

OSTEEN: I do. I do. We probably agree on 99 percent. I do. I believe there's a heaven you know. Afterwards, there's, you know, a place called hell. And I believe it's when we have a relationship
with God and his son Jesus and that's what the Bible teaches us. I believe it.

Now, Larry King asks THE question we have all heard him ask before:

KING: What if you're Jewish or Muslim, you don't accept Christ at all?

OSTEEN: You know, I'm very careful about saying who would and wouldn't go to heaven. I don't know ...

KING: If you believe you have to believe in Christ? They're wrong, aren't they?

OSTEEN: Well, I don't know if I believe they're wrong. I believe here's what the Bible teaches
and from the Christian faith this is what I believe. But I just think that only God with judge a person's heart. I spent a lot of time in India with my father. I don't know all about their religion. But I know they love God. And I don't know. I've seen their sincerity. So I don't know. I know for me, and
what the Bible teaches, I want to have a relationship with Jesus.

They Love God? Which God? They have hundreds of gods and if they are not born again then they DO NOT know God for he who knows the Father must first know His Son-- the Lord Jesus!

Was Joel being a politician when he said, "I don't know if I believe they're wrong..."? Meanwhile, so many Christians all over the globe were saying, "Speak plainly-- Stand up for your faith!" There are missionaries and Christians all over the world who are standing up for the Lord Jesus Christ in the face of brutal persecution. Christians die every day for their faith. One has to wonder how they would respond to Joel's answers. True Christians believe Jesus is the ONLY way to Heaven and that is why they reach the lost. This is why they are willing to die preaching the Gospel.

The Bible is NOT shades of gray with blended philosophies of man. The Bible is very clear that it is ONLY through Jesus Christ that mankind can be saved. We cannot argue with God. We cannot rewrite the Bible. Joel Osteen made a written apology on his website for the King interview. One has to wonder if he also made an apology to Larry King-- for the misleading and cowardly statements. He very well should, if he has not already.

Preaching the whole Word of God is not a condemnation message either. It is

a message of Good News but it is only good news to those who already KNOW the bad news.

Preaching hell is not condemnation but rather good news that Jesus died to
save us from hell. We all deserve hell but Christ Jesus died for the ungodly.
He died so that we would not have to die in our sins. His blood can make the vilest sinner clean. One cannot get saved unless he knows he is truly lost. One must hear WHY Jesus died to save them. Jesus did not come to show us a "better life" but rather He died to save us from our SINS and He rose again from the dead on the Third Day. Jesus is the Living Savior!

It is only after one receives Him as Savior that they receive the benefits of salvation, which is abundant life through Jesus Christ.

We all need to pray for Joel Osteen and especially his congregation. He says that he believes the bible but he needs to be bold and preach the entire bible, not just the topics he likes. I happened to watch, for a few minutes, his "dedication" service for his new building on TBN the other night and hell was mentioned but only in the sense that they are NOT going to preach hell, just the "positive" things of the Bible.

Well, how can one know he needs a Savior if hell is not preached??

How can one know of biblical salvation without the WHOLE Gospel message being preached-- saved from what? From problems? or from hell? Jesus spoke of those that did not believe would perish. Jesus preached the doctrine of hell. He said that it would be better to cut off your hand than to go into everlasting torment.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

A PASTOR'S DUTY

2Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

It is a pastor's duty to build his congregation up on the most holy faith. A
pastor takes care of his sheep-- he guards them and feeds them. He guards against false doctrines infiltrating the church and he feeds his congregation

with the Word of God-- the milk of the Word and the meat as well. A pastor should KNOW the Word first before he preaches to others. Dodi Osteen was boasting to the Lakewood congregation that "thank God" her son does not have any formal education. You won't hear a doctor's mother saying that. A surgeon must learn before he operates and so must a pastor. If one cannot attend seminary, then some kind of doctrinal training and fervent personal
study is needed. A shepherd must lead the sheep in the proper direction. The only way he knows the right direction is by reading and studying the road map-- the Holy Bible-- all of it-- not just some of it.

2Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The foundation of any sermon is the preaching of the Word-- the focus being
on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work--what He accomplished for us
at the Cross and in His Resurrection. The sermon should not be about us but rather about Him. One observation that can be noted is that many churches today say "We" an awful lot but the bible is VERY clear in James 4:13-15:
"Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For
that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that."

Christ Jesus said in John 15:5, "Without me ye can do nothing."

"he which hath begun a good work in you
will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"

It is God alone who works a good work in us. We, of ourselves, can do nothing.

WORSHIP

In addition, the so-called worship songs of this age are becoming "We" and "I" songs but true worship is giving all glory to God alone. Tell of HIS wondrous deeds...praise the Lord-- "YOU have done great things O Lord."

Many worship songs are "I will worship you, I will sing to you, etc. "I...I...I..."
but its not about "I"-- it's about Him. He has saved us, redeemed us, He is coming back for us. Worship is to magnify the Lord, not to say, "I will sing to you". Worship is praising Him. "Praise you Lord for all you have done. You
are worthy. You are exalted above all." "Not I but Christ liveth in me."

CONCLUSION

1Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some
shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines
of devils;

The Bible warns us that in the Last Days, some shall listen to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons. The Bible warns about those having "itching ears".
The Greek means to "tickle the ears"...in other words "ear candy".
People seeking preachers who will preach sermons that please their ears.

How can a preacher possibly lead his flock on the narrow path when he has abandoned the ONE AND ONLY road map-- the Bible and the true doctrines found therein? How can the shepherd lead his sheep in truth when his road
map is lost among humanistic ideas and "make you feel good" type sermons?

The Bible-- Sola Scriptura-- must again resound within the Body of Christ.
Notice that God was speaking to the Church when the Holy Spirit penned:
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Read the words of Jesus:

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Jesus said, "Buy of me.." We are to LOOK to Him. The Church, as a whole, has much wealth, many goods and many "christian" books and sermons. They keep filling their storehouses with material wealth that is but temporal. If we believe God's Word, we are not to be ashamed of our faith in Christ Jesus.
We are to look to Him.

We are NOT to consider the words of Jesus as "condemning words".
We cannot rewrite the Christian faith to please the world. WE CANNOT IMPROVE THE WORLD! We were not called to make the world "civilized". We were not called to place bandages over sin. Jesus did NOT command us, "Go ye and improve the world." Jesus said, "Preach the Gospel." It is Jesus alone that can save and one only gets saved by hearing the Gospel message
and believing on Him.

Joel Osteen takes a well traveled path seeking to be an "encourager" but in turn compromises the Word of God by his omission of VERY important Scriptural truths. THERE IS A HELL AND JESUS DIED FOR OUR SINS so that we would not have to go there. The bible is to be preached IN ITS ENTIRETY. God’s Word tells us that, “ALL Scripture is profitable”…not just the Joel Osteen favorites.

2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

_______ posted on 2008-01-13 13:50:06 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#3. To: _______ (#2)
I think Joel Osteen & Dr. Phil are about the same myself.
1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
Red Jones posted on 2008-01-13 14:09:55 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#4. To: _______ (#2)
Jesus did NOT command us, "Go ye and improve the world." Jesus said, "Preach the Gospel." It is Jesus alone that can save and one only gets saved by hearing the Gospel message and believing on Him.

Amen bump.
Join the Ron Paul Revolution
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Lod posted on 2008-01-13 14:18:47 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#5. To: _______ (#2)
Give Joel a break. He lives in Houston, Texas. It is a LIVING HELL ON EARTH.
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
Sam Houston posted on 2008-01-13 16:23:58 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#6. To: _______ (#2)
9. Temple Rituals. A typical temple ceremony would take place as follows: "The ritual began in a small cubicle where we had to strip completely. We then put on 'the shield,' a poncho with a hole for the head, but open on the sides (similar to a hospital gown). We went through a series of 'washings and anointings,' as various parts of our bodies were touched by elderly temple workers who mumbled appropriate incantations over them. Our Mormon underwear, 'the garments,' are said to have powers to protect us from 'the evil one.' It had occult markings, which were so 'sacred' that we were instructed to burn them when the garments wore out. The endowment ceremony mocked all doctrines held to by Biblical Christianity, and Christian pastors were portrayed as servants of Satan. We had to swear many blood oaths, promising we would forfeit our lives if we weren't faithful, or if we revealed any of the secrets revealed to us in the temple ceremonies. We were made to pretend by grotesque gestures to cut our throats, chests, and abdomens, indicating how we would lose our lives. We were never told who would kill us! The inference was, and history testifies to, that it would be the Mormon priesthood." (Testimony of a former Mormon.) [Note: The blood oaths

Just as bad as bohemian grove & skull & bones occultist fags. I ran across a mormon guy i know last week and he referred to Paul as a 'liberal demoocrat'. He of course was a romney supporter. romney is a true conservative, he claimed.
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
Artisan posted on 2008-01-13 16:33:08 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#7. To: Sam Houston (#5)
Give Joel a break. He lives in Houston, Texas. It is a LIVING HELL ON EARTH.

True enough, but no excuse for inerrancy.
Is it?
Join the Ron Paul Revolution
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Lod posted on 2008-01-13 16:46:15 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#8. To: Artisan, _______ (#6) (Edited)
I ran across a mormon guy i know last week and he referred to Paul as a 'liberal demoocrat'

Just like Baptists who are planning to vote for the Huckster. I'm not supporting Romney not because he's a Mormon. I'm not supporting him because he isn't talking about our liberty at home. He's more worried about Iraqi liberation than American liberation. He doesn't even think we have a problem here.

buckeye posted on 2008-01-13 16:47:43 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#9. To: lodwick (#7)
I've seen Joel preach and have heard others, mostly women, react to him as if he's a rock star.
He's a "Dr. Feelgood" preacher. I'm not sure he even knows what "inerrancy" means.
Just as the Beatles didn't go to the Juillard School, no one should expect Joel to get a Doctor of Divinity from anywhere other than maybe Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory. After all, his own mama takes pride in her son's ignorance of all them high-falutin' theological doctrines.
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
Sam Houston posted on 2008-01-13 16:55:23 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#10. To: Sam Houston (#9)
When Robertson endorses Ghouli, you know that we're in trouble, pulpit-wise.
I've read lots better 'sermons' preached right here than I have from the local pulpits.
And when I want the real scoop, I open my Bible, and open my heart.
Join the Ron Paul Revolution
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Lod posted on 2008-01-13 17:13:51 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#11. To: lodwick (#10)
Mitt

Mitt? Who the hell names their kid after a baseball glove?

Sodie Pop posted on 2008-01-13 17:41:36 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#12. To: Sodie Pop (#11)
Mitt? Who the hell names their kid after a baseball glove?

Sometime during this last week, Mitt went in to an explanation of his name on some interview by the MSM.
He said his given name was Billy Mitt. Possibly he meant William, but was unclear. He said his Mother wanted to call him "Billy", because the song, BILLY BOY was popular at that time.
V1: Oh, where have you been, Billy boy, Billy boy? Oh, where have you been, charming Billy? I have been to seek a wife, She's the joy of my life,
Refrain: She's a young thing and Cannot leave her mother.

V2: Did she bid you to come in, Billy boy, Billy boy? Did she bid you to come in, charming Billy? Yes, she bade me to come in, By the dimple on her chin,
(Refrain)
As I remember Mitt telling this (a question asked of him sharing breakfast with supporters), he said "he was teased because of his name, and demanded that his Mother call him by his middle name: [Mitt]".
So that explains it, right?
: I still don't get it :

Peppa posted on 2008-01-13 17:53:13 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#13. To: Peppa (#12)
He said his given name was Billy Mitt.

Heaven help us.
I wouldn't name a dog that.
Billy Mutt, maybe, but, prolly not.
Join the Ron Paul Revolution
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Lod posted on 2008-01-13 18:21:31 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#14. To: lodwick (#13)
Heaven help us.
I wouldn't name a dog that.
Billy Mutt, maybe, but, prolly not.

I think it odd that his mother loved that song so. So many politicians "personal" stories are so contrived, they are unbelievable with the smallest amount of scrutiny. But in his world, maybe not.
Didn't Hillary say she was named after Sir Edmund Hillary? Turned out he wasn't at all known until after she was spawned.
She was on Russert this morning. I wish he would've asked her about that.

Peppa posted on 2008-01-13 18:30:26 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#15. To: Peppa (#14)
"spawned"

buckeye posted on 2008-01-13 18:39:26 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#16. To: _______ (#1)
Joel Osteen needs to take a good course on world religions. Mormons are not Christians, they deny the very deity of Christ and the Holy Trinity. Scripture is clear that anyone who denies the deity of Christ is not a Christian.
Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!
The Revolution will not be televised!
robin posted on 2008-01-13 18:49:40 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#17. To: buckeye (#15)
"spawned"

Whoops. ;)

Peppa posted on 2008-01-13 19:18:46 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#18. To: Peppa (#17)
As in "incubus." Yep.

buckeye posted on 2008-01-13 19:19:40 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#19. To: _______ (#1) (Edited)
great thread, thanks!
==========
It is tragic that over eleven million Mormons think they need secret handshakes, oaths, incantations, and rituals, which originated in occultic Scottish Rite Freemasonry, in order to be with God in heaven! (In the final years of Joseph Smith Jr.'s life, he became a "worshipful master" in the Masonic Lodge.)
Many today are under the false impression that Mormonism is merely another Christian denomination, when in actuality, Mormon beliefs are not only unbiblical, but anti-Christian.

Mormonism = Freemasonry = Jewish = NOT Christian, but ANTI-Christian.

". . . We have founded many secret associations, which all work for our purpose, under our orders and our direction. We have made it an honor, a great honor, for the Gentiles to join us in our organizations (such as Masonry), which are, thanks to our gold, flourishing now more than ever. Yet it remains our secret that those Gentiles who betray their own and most precious interests, by joining us in our plot, should never know that those associations are of our creation, and that they serve our purpose. One of the many triumphs of our Freemasonry is that those Gentiles who become members of our Lodges, should never suspect that we are using them to build their own jails, upon whose terraces we shall erect the throne of our Universal King of the Jews; and should never know that we are commanding them to forge the chains of their own servility to our future King of the World . . . We have induced some of our children to join the Christian Body, with the explicit intimation that they should work in a still more efficient way for the disintegration of the Christian Church, by creating scandals within her. We have thus followed the advice of our Prince of the Jews, who so wisely said: 'Let some of your children become cannons, so that they may destroy the Church.'......."
Speeches delivered at the B'nai B'rith Convention in Paris
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm

and more evidence of the non-Christian nature of Mormonism from "United States Presidents and The Masonic Power Structure."
By: Robert Howard:
"....1844 Murder of Joseph Smith. Also a descendent of Joseph Smith, Jr. who was Satanic Ritually Abuse victim, has quietly told certain people that her family is indeed a Satanic bloodline. Further, I have mentioned other confidential pieces of information about how the leaders of the Salt Lake City Mormon church (LDS) are working with the various parts of the Illuminati's empire, including the Jehovah’s Witnesses.1944 Brigham Young takes command of the Mormon Church. Young's first name was Brigham. It was given to him because of the importance of the Brigham family. His grandmother was Sibil Brigham. Sibyls were prophetesses of the ancient world, and the name is a semi-common occult name. Brigham Young and his family practiced magic. They were also intimately aware of their genealogy, which goes back to the Merovingian Dynasty! One wonders if it is coincidence that the Merovingian's primary symbol, the bee is also the symbol for the Mormon church and Utah. Look at a Deseret Industries (Mormon thrift stores) building in your area and you will see the bee on their side. But not only does Brigham Young have Merovingian blood from at least two lines of blood (and possibly as many as 6 lines of blood back), but he also is related to the Collins (Illuminati family of Massachusetts) www.thewatcherfiles.com/bloodlines/collins.htm . Further, Brigham Young is also a blood relative of the Wheelers. [more on Wheeler's, Freemasonry, Illuminati, the elite power structure, and the Mormons...scroll down to "TIES TO OTHER IMPORTANT FAMILIES" www.thewatcherfiles.com/bloodlines/freeman.htm ].
If Young's Wheeler relatives are related to the Satanic Illuminati Wheelers, then we have an example of how 3 strains of top Satanic blood have interwoven and resulted in the birth of the Freemason, Witch, and President of the LDS Brigham Young. Although the public split occurred between Mormonism and Masonry before the Mormons went to Utah, that was only for public consumption. The leadership have coordinated activities. The Mormon religion is really a high rite of Freemasonry, and this explains why when the Mormons went to Utah, the Mormons held Masonic schools. (Hosea Stout mentions these Mormon Masonic schools in On The Mormon Frontier; The Diary of Hosea Stout, ed. by Juanita Brooks, 2 vols., Salt Lake City: Univ. of Utah Press, 1964, 2: 415, 423.) After going to Utah, Brigham Young contacted the chiefs of Freemasonry in England and proposed that Mormonism be granted a public charter to become its own Masonic Rite. The hierarchy told him no. [ After that Brigham Young began to publicly distance Mormonism from Masonry, and the Masons strangely broke many of their own rules to distance themselves publicly from Mormonism.] The Freeman Bloodline "Yes, Mason's, it is said, were among the mob that murdered Joseph and Hyrum Smith in Carthage Jail. Joseph, leaping the fatal window, gave the Masonic signal of distress. The answer was the roar of his murder's muskets and the deadly balls that pierced his heart". (Mormon Elder Heber C. Kimball, a former Mason, quoted by Orson F. Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimbal, p. 26 )....."
http://www.heart7.net/uspresidentasmasons.htm

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Gal 2:4 — And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Gal/2/4.html

If the Zionist Fox News wants to promote Mormonism and Romney as Christian, you know they ain't.

============================================
President Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act on December 23, 1913. History proved that on that day, the Constitution ceased to be the governing covenant of the American people, and our liberties were handed over to a small group of international bankers. - Secrets of the Federal Reserve by Eustace Mullins
AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2008-01-14 8:16:42 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#20. To: _______ (#0)
fyi...speaking of Joel Osteen.... interesting commentaries on the Osteen interview with Larry King:
http://www.discernment.org/osteen.htm
Joel Osteen: True or False?
www.av1611.org/osteen.html [This one could be a tract]
and the "Leaven of Lakewood"
www.discernment.org/LeavenLakewood.htm
yikes! I will keep these handy as a reminder to myself, because I have been guilty too....I know that none are saved but by Jesus Christ....But Jesus Christ is God Almighty [Isaiah 9:6] who searches the hearts and reins of men, and what about those who through no fault of their own have never heard and love their neighbor as themselves... I have often wondered if Osteen is Jewish.
At any rate, his message is not what you would call historical Christianity, but he is very popular with the masses, even Jews and Muslims, and that would explain why Fox would choose him to put a good spin on Romney.
President Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act on December 23, 1913. History proved that on that day, the Constitution ceased to be the governing covenant of the American people, and our liberties were handed over to a small group of international bankers. - Secrets of the Federal Reserve by Eustace Mullins
AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt posted on 2008-01-14 10:45:49 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#21. To: buckeye (#18)
As in "incubus." Yep.

I'm turning over a new leaf.
I think I'm evolving into a Hillary supporter now. I mean she is brilliant. I can see that she truly cares about the invisible people. When you think about it, she WAS Goldwater Girl, and is in truth, a Republican. So, won't you all join me to vote for a winner?
Her Presidential 'campaign' has had a good long run. What 8 years now? I think she's earned the job, and furthermore, when she returns to the WH, she can bring back some of the furniture. Let's just get this over with. Let's vote tomorrow.

Peppa posted on 2008-01-14 18:44:13 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
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Freedom4um

Mormonism

Christian* or Cult?#

Endnotes

The Other Mormon Church# (RLDS)
(Community of Christ)

Freedom4um

Mormonism

Christian* or Cult?#

Endnotes

The Other Mormon Church# (RLDS) (Community of Christ)

The Other Mormon Church# (RLDS)
(Community of Christ)