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Title: The thread that's changed its focus from the original title. Carry on ;)
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Published: Mar 21, 2009
Author: m e
Post Date: 2009-03-21 08:19:06 by Itistoolate
Keywords: None
Views: 28466
Comments: 2261
Officer Jack McLamb's shows:
arc.gcnlive.com/Archives2009/mar09/McLamb/030209.mp3
arc.gcnlive.com/Archives2009/mar09/McLamb/030309.mp3
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#4. To: Itistoolate (#0)
It could just be that Goldi has gone away for the weekend and doesn't know the site is down,or that there has been an equipment failure of some sort and they are working on getting it fixed. Or it could just be that she got tired of putting up with all the crap,and just pulled the plug. I doubt the last one,though. I think she would post a notice if she were going to do this.
Crap???? Like the resident Jews whining and sniveling to her all the time about the horrible anti semites????? I dont think so. Ass kissing goys make me and this forum sick.
Like the resident Jews whining and sniveling to her all the time about the horrible anti semites????? I guess it's all in the viewpoint. I see more Jew haters calling her names than I see Jews sniveling about anti-Semites. BTW,I was called a anti-Semite there the day before the site went down,and it wasn't the first time. I see no evidence of the Jews and Israeli-Firsters there having any more influence with her than anybody else. In fact,she even banned Margueritte a couple of years ago under another of her screen names.
Perhaps there is a thought... You also like magician, Marge and the others see nothing but Jew haters. If you look at LP, that is nearly all you see, people that see anti semitism under their bed, in the closet and are afraid to deal with it. No one on LP has ever raised the specter of anti goyism, have you ever wondered about that Pete???? I can go on LP and demand we nuke the Arab world, and not ONE WORD of disapproval, from anyone, not one.
Missed this one. I can't speak for anyone else,but you would hear protest there from me. What you seem to be missing is most of the people there (and everywhere else) that cheer the suggestion we nuke the A-Rabs aren't Jewish. Most are Christians,if in name only. They are people who bought into the whole terrorism thing at face value,and they are scared. BTW,I think that unless the NWO does take over we will eventually end up nuking several Muslim countries. It is inevitable that sooner or later some fundie Muslim group or another is going to get their hands on a nuke or a bio weapon,and use it to attack a major US city. Once that happens,all bets are off. Even I will be cheering to see the mushroom clouds over Arabia.
Maybe that's why I thought you to be the enemy. Do you still buy the lie that fundie muzzies hit us on 9/11 without Bush's help?
It pained me to believe it so without reservation, but the complicity by purposeful neglect indicts the globalist Bush Administration puppetmeisters is obvious IMO. Oh...And, no, I don't believe Bush himself was capable of masterminding a lemonade stand.
Ahhhh,but purposeful neglect is NOT the same thing as "being behind it". I don't think they made any real effort to stop any potential attack,but that's not the same thing as saying they planned or encouraged one.
I don't think they made any real effort to stop any potential attack,but that's not the same thing as saying they planned or encouraged one. Gray area there, Pete. I've made the case with respect to 9/11 as analogous to leaving the store door wide open and unguarded - along with an open cash register - then claiming no responsibility for the thievery.
I've made the case with respect to 9/11 as analogous to leaving the store door wide open and unguarded - If you both are going to say the WTC 1, 2 and 7 came down because of fire then you're both either very ignorant or trolls. There is too much evidence to the contrary to believe otherwise. Once you believe that the collapses were helped by explosives, then you have to believe that the Bush administration was complicit. And even if you can't see the physical impossibility of collapse by fire, you have to be able to see that no plane is going to fly into DC air space unidentified and unintercepted, without inside top level complicity. So which is it? Ignorance? Or shilliness?
wonderfully succinct
Before 911, a Logistics employee I am good friends with, for Fed Ex told me about a system of vectored red lights that DC had in place to warn of any unauthorized aircraft from even getting near the capitol, and if the craft did not turn around, anti aircraft weapons were at the ready. He flys a lot Alot. I believe him. However I have never broached the subject of the 911 attacks - for reasons of just getting along. I think he has got to go along with the ruse.
What is more likely? Our domestic air defense systems were hopelessly unprepared, or our government set it up, then perfectly executed the plan? Shit during the Clinton admin, a plane hit the white house, on accident. Our government is incompetent, that much is clear. It can't even torture people in Iraq in secret, do you think they can pull off a 9-11 without anyone knowing? Probably not. Our foreign policy caused 9-11, and silly conspiracy theories take away from learning the real truth. Playing chess with other nations has fucking consequences.
Not only that,but those same conspiracy theories are LOVED by the government because it allows them to dismiss any questions about their conduct as being linked to "those insane conspiracy freaks". Instead of helping the cause of freedom,all they are doing in hurting it and helping the government. AND....it does no good at all to argue with them because they are obsessed with every little detail,and have reams of false "Facts" to back up their arguments. What makes it so hard to argue against any conspiracy theory is that the best ones are all believable because there is a basis in fact to all of them. For example *I* am the one that started the conspiracy theory Hillary Clinton being behind the crash of JFK Jr's airplane and his death. I started this rumor on FR and used the fact that he had been talking about running for the same Senate seat ("his" family Senate seat) that she was running for,and this is the reason she had a had the airplane rigged to crash. Within a hour this was accepted as the gospel,and I was being called a DNC shill for saying it was made up,and a liar for saying I was the one who made it up. DESPITE the fact that the proof I was the one who made it up was right there on that very thread! Everybody jumped on the one little fact about the Senate seat,and that was all they needed or wanted to hear.
LOL As bright as you are; I don't get it. How can you be so blind ?
Sometimes the right answer is the simple one,not the one that makes you feel good or vindicated. This whole thing was planned,executed,and financed by Saudi Arabia.
Saudi Arabia had nothing to gain from it. Israel on the other hand, had EVERYTHING to gain from it, and are STILL reaping the rewards.
BullBarack! Saudi Arabia had EVERYTHING to gain from it. Saddam Hussein was never a threat to either Israel OR the US,but he was very much a threat to the House of Saud. Just like every other tribal leader/king in Arabia,the King there dreamed of being the King of a United Arabia. Saddam Hussein had this same dream,and he had the means and the willpower to do it. We invaded Iraq to protect the House of Saud.
Sneak...I spent a whole 'nother thread being logical with them and it didn't work... You're arguing with people who do not believe that a planes impact, exposion and ensuing fires caused more than even MINIMAL damage. IN some cases, some believe the planes were remote controlled. Now, they cannot tell you exactly HOW the Towers were brought down only that the catastrophy that we witnessed 9/11 wasn't enough. You're also arguing with people who believe that a well financed international terrorist group doesn't exist. Good luck, mon frer..
If you believe that a 110 story building (make that TWO 110 story buildings) can collapse in slightly more than free fall speed, then you must also believe that the tooth fairy is really the Easter bunny in drag.
Helloo...McFly...anyone home McFly?? You were linked to a report and a graph that makes your characterization look stupid. Yet there you go again.
Excuse me? The idiotic report you linked gave a minimum collapse speed LESS than the time it would take for a free fall through air, and the chart simply reflected the actual times of the collapse vs an object dropping through thin air. Did you miss the one that I posted to YOU, indicating it should have taken about 97 seconds? BTW. Have you ever REALLY looked at any of the collapse photos? It's obvious that MUCH of the top structure's mass disintegrated into dust and was blown out sideways. That being the case, how was there enough mass left over to cause the structure below to collapse?
You really are a tool...er fool...er what the hell...both... The steel did NOT disintegrate dickweed...
You have been a nasty mouthed little troll here war, I thought higher of you back on LP. Do you always resort to that sort of tactic when you are shown to be wrong? Anyways, the collapse photos most certainly show the majority of the upper structure being pulverized and ejected sideways. There was a HUGE loss of mass due to that, therefore there would be SUBSTANTIALLY less load on the lower portion of the structure. In fact, there was probably less loading force due to the kinetic energy of the upper part of the tower collapsing than the usual static loading force due to the potential energy of the upper part of the structure.
Post an analysis of the WTC dust as I did. Thanks...
Here's one for you to ponder; Now explain to everyone how a dust cloud can cause an intact floor to collapse, as the upper structure was pulverized into dust as it collapsed, leaving very little mass to actualy impact the lower floors. BTW, do you have calculations as to how much energy would be required to cause an entire floor to fail instantaneously by impact? There would be VERY little energy left over after the pulverization of an upper floor as it impacts a lower floor, and the lower floor must be caused to fail by the remaining energy if the "pancake" theory can be taken seriously. So go ahead, give us the equations and the details.
Geezus fucking Crickets... The "top structure" was NOT "pulverized"...what WAS pulverized was concrete, glass, people and drywall... BTW, do you have calculations as to how much energy would be required to cause an entire floor to fail instantaneously by impact? dude...did you even GLANCE atthat report?
The "top structure" was NOT "pulverized"...what WAS pulverized was concrete, glass, people and drywall... Are you retarded? You contradict yourself within the same sentence. That "concrete, glass, and drywall..." along with furniture and office equipment had WEIGHT, in fact, MOST of the weight of any particular floor. The steel columns are a mystery as they should have remained standing even WITH a "pancake" collapse. In fact, the core could not collapse per se, it would have needed to have been shredded and torn apart for it to totally fail. Anyways, what kinetic energy there was due to the momentum of the upper structure was largely expended in pulverizing the upper structure to dust, where there could have been very little kinetic energy left to break all the trusses and supports of the floor below
What steel columns?
Those which were part of the steel core.
What makes you believ that they should have been left standing? You do know that they were sectional? You do know that they were tapered?
For one, it is highly unlikely the supporting bolts and rods holding the trusses onto the core would have been strong enough to rip the core apart. If the floors pancaked then the floors should have slid over the core. However, there wasn't much left to slide since the upper floors pulverized as they collapsed, so there was not enough energy to cause a collapse of the lower floors in the first place. Thus, not only should the core have remained standing, but the 100 or so UNDAMAGED floors of both towers should have survived the collapse of the upper structure of both buildings, except for perhaps the top section of the remaining undamaged structures. And sure, the top was tapered, BUT strong enough to hold most of the weight of the WTC structure at that level. In fact, it was highly improbable for a total collapse even at the damaged section to occur at all.
You are basing this upon what? The inane belief that the only force being exerted was DOWNWARD? What was one of the functions of the outer support structure? LATERAL stability. When LATERAL support fails...what happens?
Nothing unless there are high winds or a hurricane taking place. The towers didn't start swaying back and forth. Is that what you trying to say, the collapse was caused by SWAYING? Besides, only a relatively tiny part of the exterior columns were damaged.
You're out of your mind...what happens when you try to stack too much of something on top of each other?
Oh and BTW, the WTC towers were not just a bunch of stacked cans, they were rigid structures. There would have virtually no loss of lateral strength anyways due to the minimal damage to the exterior columns, yet it wouldn't have mattered if there WAS a total loss of lateral strength (which would be impossible due to the construction of the buildings themselves). There were no hurricane force winds that day, and even if there had been, there was no overall loss of lateral strength as the purpose of the exterior walls was to DISTRIBUTE the lateral load across the entire building, and a missing section of column would not affect that.
Not when the links between the two support structures failed...
Huh? There was a relative pinhole in the exterior wall, and the inner steel core was ALSO still there. There are also apparently some huge inaccuracies concerning the makeup of the floors themselves, where rather than flimsy trusses it appears that there were steel girders bridging the gap between the core and the outer walls. I need to read up on that before I post the actual article, but your post makes zero sense, there was no horizontal failure or movement, otherwise the top of the tower WOULD have toppled. As I posted on another thread, the top of one tower did in fact start to lean, but that was due to a loss of integrity in one corner of the supporting structure below it, it didn't begin to sway or lean as you are apparently trying to concoct. If it HAD begun to sway or lean due to horizontal forces, and there was a loss of horizontal integrity as you are trying to claim, it would have fallen over, not straight down.
You're assuming that the WHOLE structure would have to move...it wouldn't....all it would take would be continuing stress on the building to keep its center of gravity moving enough to compromise its support structure.
You are grasping at straws. You are trying to make it sound as if it was an inherently unstable structure and was performing a balancing act. It was not a disjointed unbalanced structure, it was a ridid structure supported by a steel core, so there was no shifting of center of gravity taking place.
Wha...huh? Dude...firmly anchor a 10 foot pole in the ground 2 feet and shake the bottom and then shake the top...this is BASIC stuff you're arguing against... A whip's TAIL breaks the sound barrier but where you are holding it, it does not...
A whip's TAIL breaks the sound barrier but where you are holding it, it does not... Huh? Are you trying to say that someone at the bottom of the WTC picked it up and tried snapping it like a whip? I always knew you were a whackjob, but I wasn't aware that you were a stark raving lunatic. In reference to your analogy of a pole, are you trying to say that the towers were swaying all over the place? You are a jackass. The towers were solidly in place and NOT experiencing ANY abnormal sway, if they swayed at all from the VERY slight wind that morning. You are acting like a cartoon character that even little children would see as an idiot.
Had you ever been in the towers? You could feel the sway in the upper floors. This one is the easiest of your rantings to bitch slap. The towers swayed...it 's why lateral support was so important. And, uh, the design engineers after they had tested their prototypes that determined how much sway both the building and the occupants could take, they then developed a MASSIVE system of viscoelastic dampers that mitigated the sway. Guess where they put these dampers....BETWEEN THE TRUSSES AND THE PERIMETER COLUMNS. Your problem is that you've assumed a conclusion, i.e. "BOOOSH BRUNG DOWN THE TOWERS!!!" and are trying to construct a fairy tale based upon Moonbatism Your further problem is, there are several REALITIES that stand in the way of your paranoiac fanrasy. So to cut to the chase here and answer your question...yes, Alice IN Wonderland, the towers did sway and the lost of perimeter support exacerbated that sway.
You stupid assed dork, NOWHERE have I EVER said ""BOOOSH BRUNG DOWN THE TOWERS!!!", only drooling retards such as yourself have ever thought ANYONE has ever honestly said that. What is clear is that there are MANY lies and distortions being given as the "official truth" that are simply improbable or impossible, and not only is that reason to investigate what really DID happen, but to wonder why those in the US government and the media would try to coverup what DID happen. Might Bush have known about the plan? More than likely he was kept in the dark in terms of operational details but knew SOMETHING was going to happen, and didn't blink an eyelash when it did. More than likely Cheney was fully aware and in fact part of the operation, along with a few other high ranking members of the administration. That is simply an observation of what they did AFTER the attacks to stifle any sort of real investigation of what happened.
Exactly. We do not have to have a complete solution to know that the Official Fairy Tale is contradicted by multiple documented datums and is thus not the correct solution. Without even getting heated about it we can point out the contradictions in the players who were trained at U.S. Fedgov installations, the known incompetence of the pilots, the stand down of NORAD and their inability to intercept (or so they say) ANY of the 4 aircraft, the failure of even one of the 4 aircraft to transmit the 4 digit hijack code (which takes about 2 to 3 seconds),the transfer of monies from the CIA connected Pakistani ISI to Mohammed Atta, the presence of Thermate residue on girders from the towers, the fact that the structural steel was protected from examination by ARMED GUARDS, and the list goes on to several hundred to several thousand anomalies all of which contradict the Official Fairy Tale. This is even before we get to the government obstructionism and prevention of an honest review and analysis of the data: A Fema Report which has had to be revised and re-explained because it has been shredded and is little better than a laughingstock. NIST, which has several top experts on nano-thermates, which has refused to consider and has steadfastly avoided examining the residue. They had to invent an entirely new physics to try to explain away Building 7's collapse - which is laughed at everywhere but the controlled U.S. Media. The firing of an environmental scientist at Underwriter Laboratories for pointing out that the structural steel in the towers had been certified for higher temperatures, by UL, than were known to have occurred in the towers. Professor Stephen Jones' work on the physics of the collapses and chemical analysis of thermate residues. (Which resulted in massive heat on BYU, where he was a well respected Professor of Physics, and he was forced out with a Golden Handshake). His work was repudiated by Administrators but not the faculty who turned out in his support. (BYU has a lot of programs dependent on FEDGOV funding.) The Popular Mechanics Hit Piece which has been shredded, shown to be false, and which used doctored photographs, misrepresented as Bldg. 7 but were actually of Bldg. 6 but had been reoriented, to try to push the cover legend. I could go on for several pages on the anomalies surrounding 911. Take for example the famous Dancing Troupe from Israel - "The Dancing Israelis" who were set up and photographing the towers BEFORE their collapse. In fact the reports seem to indicate they were setting up BEFORE the first plane hit. Then their was the e-mail warning to employees of Odigo, an Israeli owned company, warning them to stay away from the towers that morning. The more layers of the cover story you peel back the more that onion disappears as the chimera it is.
The suspension of belief is required to accept any of it, but especially building 7. *ESPECIALLY* 7. The fairy tale believers won't even touch it no matter how many times the evidence is put before them.
No matter how they try Building 7 is the one element for which no Official Fairy Tale has ever come close to explaining and they won't touch the obvious conclusion observable in the physical data i.e., it was "pulled". Explosive demolition is the only hypothesis that accounts for ALL of the data known about the collapse of Building 7. One need only look at it objectively: The building's collapse was symmetrical i.e., it collapsed at all points in 360 degrees simultaneously. Viewing the films you can slow it down and watch it in slow motion and note that the first cracks appear simultaneously along two lines along the reinforced central core and then the building proceeds to collapse in on itself and neatly into its own footprint. The building's collapse from initiation to completion took 6.6 seconds. A pure freefall from the buildings top, say if you dropped a Bowling Ball, is 6 seconds. So, the obvious conclusion is that the structure offered little or no resistance to the collapse of the structure. The only way that occurs is if the underlying structure is removed and the only way you do that is with explosives. So you have the following signature items: Symmetrical Collapse in 360 degrees. It fell at an effectively freefall rate. The rubble accumulated in the footprint of the structure. These are all signatures of an explosive demolition not of a catastrophic collapse. If one studies the history of catastrophic collapse one finds that there is always a first failure point and that the failure is not uniform throughout the structure. Having a first failure point the structure fails, collapses, in the direction of the weak point not uniformly in 360 degrees nor symmetrically.
You need to phone home for new instructions, ET. (BNN - May 19, 2007 - New York, NY) - In the first candid admission on record by a 9/11 Truth Movement leader of being wrong, Steven Jones (above, left) admitted today that he and other 9/11 researchers "screwed up on the collapse time of WTC 7. We blew it." For years, Jones and others have claimed that WTC 7 collapsed in 6.5 seconds, nearly free fall speed.... Responding to the overnight controversy, Steven Jones announced this morning that WTC 7 did indeed take over 13 seconds to collapse. "We screwed up. We had never seen the CBS video when we claimed that it took WTC 7 6.5 seconds to collapse. We only relied on the street video that does not show the Penthouses. By the time we saw the CBS video, we had so much invested in the 6.5-second collapse time, we could not disappoint our supporters who were successfully using the 6.5 free fall time to push 9/11 Truth. We just ignored the evidence.
You need to phone home for new instructions, ET. (BNN - May 19, 2007 - New York, NY) - In the first candid admission on record by a 9/11 Truth Movement leader of being wrong, Steven Jones (above, left) admitted today that he and other 9/11 researchers "screwed up on the collapse time of WTC 7. We blew it." For years, Jones and others have claimed that WTC 7 collapsed in 6.5 seconds, nearly free fall speed.... Responding to the overnight controversy, Steven Jones announced this morning that WTC 7 did indeed take over 13 seconds to collapse. "We screwed up. We had never seen the CBS video when we claimed that it took WTC 7 6.5 seconds to collapse. We only relied on the street video that does not show the Penthouses. By the time we saw the CBS video, we had so much invested in the 6.5-second collapse time, we could not disappoint our supporters who were successfully using the 6.5 free fall time to push 9/11 Truth. We just ignored the evidence. Delightfully dishonest ploy there - which took all of about 2 seconds to spot. Conflating the collapse time of the twin towers with time to collapse of WTC 7 is a comparison of unlike items. Whatever time it took for the towers collapse is irrelevant to the time to collapse for WTC 7. Anyone can take a stopwatch and measure it for themselves. The video is readily available (where it hasn't been scrubbed). It takes approximately 6.6 seconds (that is O.6 seconds greater than a pure freefall) for WTC 7 to collapse. From the time the cracks appear in the facade as shown in the street level video to the time the structure collapses, implodes, neatly, symmetrically, in 360 degrees, into its own footprint is about 6.6 seconds. Even if you add another second or two for the penthouse the rate of collapse is impossibly fast for a normal structural failure. You are clutching at straws to avoid the conclusion demonstrated to anyone with eyes, brains, and a stopwatch - WTC 7 was collapsed via explosive demolition. Even adding a second or two does not take away from the visible and obvious evidence i.e., that the structure collapsed uniformly, symmetrically, in 360 degrees into its own footprint. This is without taking into consideration the fact that the core of the building, as in the towers, was a massive interlaced network of heavy steel girders which had been further hardened and reinforced by Rudy Ghouliani to be the NYC command center in the event of a major natural castrophe. Adding further circumstantial data: Rudy Ghouliani admitted in a press conference that they had evacuated at least 6 hours ahead of the collapse. CNN reported the collapse was imminent an hour before it happened. The BBC reported it had collapsed a half an hour before it did - the Reporterette giving the report was filmed with it still standing in the background. The BBC scrubbed the video and then tried to deny its existence but too many people had already downloaded copies and so they were forced to backtrack. You could probably sell your Schlock on Freeptard Republic but it is no sale here.
Bush-Linked Company Handled Security for the WTC, Dulles and United by Margie Burns George W. Bush's brother was on the board of directors of a company providing electronic security for the World Trade Center, Dulles International Airport and United Airlines, according to public records. The company was backed by an investment firm, the Kuwait-American Corp., also linked for years to the Bush family. The security company, formerly named Securacom and now named Stratesec, is in Sterling, Va.. Its CEO, Barry McDaniel, said the company had a ``completion contract" to handle some of the security at the World Trade Center ``up to the day the buildings fell down."
Bush-Linked Company Handled Security for the WTC, Dulles and United by Margie Burns George W. Bush's brother was on the board of directors of a company providing electronic security for the World Trade Center, Dulles International Airport and United Airlines, according to public records. The company was backed by an investment firm, the Kuwait-American Corp., also linked for years to the Bush family. The security company, formerly named Securacom and now named Stratesec, is in Sterling, Va.. Its CEO, Barry McDaniel, said the company had a ``completion contract" to handle some of the security at the World Trade Center ``up to the day the buildings fell down." The "Coincidence Theorists" will of course pooh-pooh it. I was aware of the connection though. It is interesting though to look at all the coincidences: Marvin Bush on the Board of Securacom. Orrin Hatch telling the press on the Capital Steps, on the evening of 911, that it just had to be the work of the dastardly FEMA disaster people flying into town the day before. An exercise involving multiple simultaneous hijackings is scheduled and run the morning of 911 - while the "hijackers" are in the air. The chief NIST Investigator is an expert on Nano-Thermites but NIST will not examine the residue for Nano-Thermites. Hundreds of millions in Stock and Options trading the week before 911 on the airlines involved. Lots of coincidences.
too many to be believed as coincidental. the probability of this many coincidences is mathematically impossible prior to such a catastrophic event!
Not to the believing mind of the "Coincidence Theorist". Everything bad in the whole wide world occurs "coincidentally".
Helpful hint to war: You'd come off as a better disinfo artist if you questioned one or two aspects of the 9/11 Official Story rather than acting as though everything on the matter that came out of DC was gospel. O_I thinks you're a pro. That little ol' me has to point this out to you shows you to be an amateur.
I've seen no evidence of that...
At least flag the person you're deriding, you rude-ass backstabber.
Go soak yer head. This thread is a one long example of what you're barking at me about. Go bark at them too...
This thread is one long example of your dedication to the art of disinformation. The rest of us are here because we don't believe the Feds. You're here because you do believe them.
Cite one link that is to the government report...in pooint of fact, this thread is testimony to me dealing with each and every one of the points that you Moonbats have raised while each and every one of you ignoring not only my points of rebuttal but my questions surrounding your blatherings. So, you can also feel free to answer the questions that I have raised. You can begin with the fact that UL did not certify the steel and where Professor Jones got his samples as well as his admission that WTC 7 took twice as long to fall as he had been promoting. Thanks.
[21] See here for pictures and comments in FEMA’s report mentioning the melted steel: www.911research.wtc7.net/...nce/metallurgy/index.html “Although virtually all of the structural steel from the Twin Towers and Building 7 was removed and destroyed, preventing forensic analysis, FEMA's volunteer investigators did manage to perform "limited metallurgical examination" of some of the steel before it was recycled. Their observations, including numerous micrographs, are recorded in Appendix C of the WTC Building Performance Study. Prior to the release of FEMA's report, a fire protection engineer and two science professors published a brief report in JOM disclosing some of this evidence.” 1 “The results of the examination are striking. They reveal a phenomenon never before observed in building fires: eutectic reactions, which caused "intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese." The New York Times described this as "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation."2 WPI provides a graphic summary of the phenomenon.” “The severe corrosion and subsequent erosion of Samples 1 and 2 are a very unusual event. No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified. The rate of corrosion is also unknown. It is possible that this is the result of long-term heating in the ground following the collapse of the buildings. It is also possible that the phenomenon started prior to collapse and accelerated the weakening of the steel structure. A detailed study into the mechanisms of this phenomenon is needed to determine what risk, if any, is presented to existing steel structures exposed to severe and long-burning fires.” Evidence of evaporated steel as reported by the New York Times: “Engineers have been trying to figure out exactly what happened… ‘Fire and the structural damage… would not explain steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been partly evaporated’” from: Glanz, James (2001). “Engineers are baffled over the collapse of 7 WTC; Steel members have been partly evaporated,” New York Times, November 29. 2001.
They don't have to worry about that anymore. They only made one batch of the Magickal Jet Fuel™.
Well, think about it. How many skyscrapers caught on fire and never fell into their own footprint before 9/11? How many after? And of course the answer is that it never happened before or since. Ergo, Magickal Jet Fuel™.
www.prisonplanet.com/arti...st2007/190807Building.htm Ground Zero Building Catches Fire, Doesn't Collapse Prison Planet Sunday Aug 19, 2007 The 40 story Deutsche Bank building next to the ground zero site in New York, where the world trade center once stood, caught fire yesterday and burned intensely for seven hours without collapsing. This represents another modern day miracle in light of the commonly accepted premise that since 9/11, all steel buildings that suffer limited fire damage implode within two hours. This building had even suffered structural damage on 9/11 and had been partially dismantled. The raging fire, which killed two firefighters, was finally declared under control late saturday afternoon, a full seven hours after it had begun to burn. On 9/11 the south tower of the WTC burned for just 56 minutes before collapsing, while the north tower lasted around an hour and 45 minutes. According to the official transcripts of the firefighter tapes, fires in both towers were almost out immediately before the collapses. The saving grace that could have prevented Deutsche Bank from imploding may have been the fact that it was not hit by a plane, as the twin towers were on 9/11. However, the absence of a jet strike wasn't enough to prevent WTC 7 from crumbling into its own footprint within 7 seconds later that fateful afternoon. Hundreds of buildings worldwide suffered major fires that gutted the entire facade of their structure before 9/11 and did not collapse, but since the twin towers behaved differently, rather than consider an alternative explanation for the collapse of the towers, experts simply decided to reverse the fundamental precepts of all known physics to make it easier for everyone to understand. Since that time, it has been commonly accepted that limited fires in tall buildings are 99% certain to cause an almost instantaneous collapse.
How many more times, to the nearest 10,000th, does it need to be pointed out to you that those buildings were of an entirely different framing construct than WTC? And don't ***think*** I didn't notice your use of the word "facade", weasle.
Evidence of evaporated steel as reported by the New York Times: “Engineers have been trying to figure out exactly what happened… ‘Fire and the structural damage… would not explain steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been partly evaporated’” from: Glanz, James (2001). “Engineers are baffled over the collapse of 7 WTC; Steel members have been partly evaporated,” New York Times, November 29. 2001.
November? How much of the study into why the collpases happened had bene completed? People usually are baffled until they research imnto why something happened. You still have yet to answer any of my questions. I am beginning to believe that your point here is to simply spam the thread hoping that I will go away. It's not going to happen.
I looked around YouTube a bit, couldn't find a 13 second clip of WTC 7's collapse. It would seem to me that this is a fact that we should be able to establish from video. 6 seconds or 13 seconds. Pick one. I think WTC 7 has always been the Truthers' strongest argument.
It doesn't matter if it was 6, 13 or 20 seconds. It was obviously a controlled demolition. There's no room for argument.
Yes, it does. In debate, if you can't establish facts that both sides will stipulate to, you have no grounds for any kind of debate. You have to start with shared facts. This matter of how many seconds the collapse took should not even be a matter for debate, there should be plenty of evidence for any reasonable person, plenty of cameras you can time to determine the time for collapse. Start with the facts you agree on. Then you can have a proper debate.
Yes, it does. In debate, if you can't establish facts that both sides will stipulate to, you have no grounds for any kind of debate. Actually I would argue that you are both correct. I am even willing to accept the stipulation that it was 13 seconds. Of course that is because it does not materially affect the conclusion. The rate of the collapse has always been a secondary datum which supported the argument but was not essential to the argument. The primary data to be observed, and which are not in dispute as they are recorded on the video is: The collapse began symmetrically in 360 degrees meaning it was uniform completely around the perimiter of the building. One can observe in the video that the building collapses in upon itself. Visible evidence of this fact is the two cracks that appear in the facade along lines approximating the physical presence in the building of the central core structure - the strongest part of the structure. The center of the building then begins to subside pulling the rest of the structure inward. This again supports the observation that the collapse was initiated simultaneously in 360 degrees and thus was thus symmetrical. This is directly at variance with known observations of catastrophic failure of a structure wherein there is always a weak point that gives way thus causing the failure to proceed in the direction of the point of initial failure. For it to collapse symmetrically means that it had to fail simultaneously in 360 degrees thus indicating a causal mechanism initiating a uniform collapse. In a normal catastrophic failure the failure occurs asymmetrically as their is a single point of initial failure which then compromises the structure thus resulting in failure proceeding in that direction. Simultaneous collapse is again buttressed by the appearance of the two cracks allong the core lines in the same unit of time. Were there only one point of failure the buildings collapse would have shown a definite slump in the direction of the point of failure. So, again we are brought back to the observable fact that the collapse was uniform and symmetrical in 360 degrees. This we can all observe without including the disputed datum of the rate of collapse which despite the disputation is measured in mere seconds from the time the first signature occurs until the structure collapses neatly into its own footprint - with the strongest part of the structure failing first. If we compare the collapse of building 7 to known instances of explosive demolitions of buildings the observable similarity is one of the most striking aspects of the building 7 collapse. I could build further on the argument but don't have the time at the moment, but I think this demonstrates clearly enough that the collapse of bldg. 7 does not conform to a normal engineering failure and there are elements unaccounted for which initiated the collapse above and beyond a normal structural failure.
You need to go back and look at that video...one side of the top visibly sags before the other...
Attaboy - keep clutching at those straws. The cracks appear so close together as to be materially insignificant. The structure observably collapsed symmetrically in 360 degrees with collapse being initiated uniformly in those 360 degrees. The entire support structure then just ceases to exist, as one sees in a controlled demolition, and the building collapses neatly into its own footprint. NIST to date has avoided the building 7 collapse and then finally came up with their thermal expansion "hypothesis" to explain away the observable data and thence became a laughingstock everywhere but in the controlled American Media. At this point the most you do is quibble and throw up whatever hoping it will stick as you continue to try to defend the Official Fairy Tale. How much DO they pay you? Do you have to sneak up on the mirror to shave? 'bot on duuuuuuuuuude!
My ass...you can "say" that all you want to as the we watch the left side sag visibly and collapse well prior to the building falling...we also see the top of the structure collapse well before the building does...link those to 13 seconds and that's STRIKE THREE... Where did Jones get his samples?
What is also interesting is when the BBC stated WTC 7 had collapsed, while they were live on air, but it was visibly still standing in the background behind the reporter. Now, how could a reporter report the collapse of a particular building so "prophetically"?
So they misreported...so what? That's evidence of a conspiracy? And I was accused of grasping at straws...
So what? Duh. The NWO media reported the collapse of WTC7 before it collapsed. All you can say is so what? You should be outraged!
The day was one big ball of confusion, moonie. You accuse the media of getting it wrong on a good day... That said, what in the fuck do you believe that this proves? When are you going to answer my questions? What are you afraid of?
Eight-years later and YOU are still confused!
Riiight...because we know that the media gets EVERYTHING right 100% of the time...especially during times of mass confusion...they are the Omnipotent and Omnipresent Beacon of All Things Right...
No, we know the media gets everything wrong. In fact, the weathermen can't even accurately predict rain. But "somehow" by some "miracle," the BBC clarevoyantly predicted the fall of WTC7, and went on and on discussing Solomon Brothers....all while the building remained standing, for over 25 minutes prior to it actually happening. And not to be undone by this "feat", the feed "mysteriously" disconnected right at the very time that the WTC7 was falling Nosiree....nothing smells there! It's all just another one of the 9/11 coinkydinks!
9/11 Troofers: The Media Is ALL KNOWING...WE TRUST THE MEDIA...
How much do they pay your illiterate ass? Is it worth it?
Chuckles...yea dude...I am just so OVERWHELMED by you fools. These "Troofer" threads are the easiest pickings on the internet. None of you, to a person, realize how FUCKING stupid you sound. That's En Oh En Ee of you...
None of you, to a person, realize how OBVIOUS you look. If it looks like a shill and smells like a shill......
When a Moonbat says "YOU CANNOT TRUST THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA!!!!" he really means: "Unless it supports some Moonbat blathering." When a Moonbat says: "THE FACT THAT THE TOWERS FELL AT FREE FALL SPEED MEANS THAT THEY WERE BLOWED UP!!!" he can also say "THE FACT THAT THE TOWERS DID NOT FALL AT FREE FALL SPEED MEANS THAT THEY WERE BLOWED-UP!!!" When a Moonbat says: "THE PLANES DID NOT EXPLODE INSIDE THE TOWERS!!!" He can also say: "THOSE PLANES WERE PULVERIZED AS THEY TORE THROUGH THE TOWERS!!!" A Moonbat can say: "THEY CLAIMED THAT JET FUEL BROUGHT DOWN THOSE TOWERS!!!!" When no-one has said that jet fuel brought down the Towers. A Moonbat can say: THE GOOBERMINT CLAIMS THAT TOWERS PANCAKED!!!" when in fact the NIST states, unequivocally, that the Towers did not pancake.
And .gov can tell FAIRY STORIES and people like you believe them...all of them, regardless of the fact that .gov has shown itself to be duplicitous, acting contrary to the Rule of Law, trampling over the Constitution, acting as tyrants rather than servants to the People, whose will .gov ignores.
Which doesn't mean that the NIST report is incorrect.
At this point, for me to believe anything that .gov says, they have to prove they're not lying. Short of that I don't trust it or believe it about anything, as far as I can spit.
I don't base my opinions on misanthropy. I base them on facts...what is proveable...what is not...
And how many more times does government and the politicians of the U.S. have to prove to you their level of lies, corruption, and willful disregard to the Rule of Law and the Constitution of the United States of America for you to begin to wonder about their motivations and statements?
bump!
He saw it and is sitting there considering the irpony of his statement.
This report was carried at "about 4:15 eastern daylight time" (according to the anchor), over an hour before the building actually collapsed at 5:20. Who told them the WTC 7 building "has either collapsed or is collapsing."? Keep in mind he did not say it was going to collapse, he said it either had or was in the process of doing so. The anchor says is "we are getting information now", who is giving him this information? If you pay close attention you can see after the anchor announces this he turns around and sees the building as clear as day still standing, he then proceeds to backtrack on the initial information which informed him clearly the building "has either collapsed or is collapsing."
Which proves what Moonbat? That some people thought WTC7 was going to collapse? You have FDNY on the records as pulling their guys out ofthe buildiomng because they were afraid it was going collpse. FDNY Chief of Operations Daniel Nigro: "The biggest decision we had to make was to clear the area and create a collapse zone around the severely damaged [WTC 7] building. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building’s integrity was in serious doubt."[ Fire Engineering magazine, 10/2002] "The most important operational decision to be made that afternoon was [that] the collapse [Of the WTC towers] had damaged 7 World Trade Center, which is about a 50 story building, at Vesey between West Broadway and Washington Street. It had very heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient around to protect our members, so we had to give up some rescue operations that were going on at the time and back the people away far enough so that if 7 World Trade did collapse, we [wouldn't] lose any more people. We continued to operate on what we could from that distance and approximately an hour and a half after that order was [given], at 5:30 in the afternoon, 7 World Trade Center collapsed completely. http://tinyurl.com/g8c6y 1. We walked over by number Seven World Trade Center as it was burning and saw this 40-plus story building with fire on nearly all floors. –FDNY Lieutenant Robert Larocco 2. ...Just when you thought it was over, you're walking by this building and you're hearing this building creak and fully involved in flames. It's like, is it coming down next? Sure enough, about a half an hour later it came down. – FDNY Lieutenant James McGlynn 3. I walked out and I got to Vesey and West, where I reported to Frank [Cruthers]. He said, we’re moving the command post over this way, that building’s coming down. At this point, the fire was going virtually on every floor, heavy fire and smoke that really wasn’t bothering us when we were searching because it was being pushed southeast and we were a little bit west of that. I remember standing just where West and Vesey start to rise toward the entrance we were using in the World Financial Center. There were a couple of guys standing with me and a couple of guys right at the intersection, and we were trying to back them up – and here goes 7. It started to come down and now people were starting to run. –FDNY Deputy Chief Nick Visconti http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/visconti.html 4. All morning I was watching 7 World Trade burn, which we couldn't do anything about because it was so much chaos looking for missing members. –Firefighter Marcel Klaes 5. When the building came down it was completely involved in fire, all forty- seven stories. –FDNY Assistant Chief Harry Myers (Smith, Dennis, 2002. Report From Ground Zero: The Heroic Story of the Rescuers at the World Trade Center. New York: Penguin Putnam. p. 160) 6. The concern there again, it was later in the afternoon, 2, 2:30, like I said. The fear then was Seven. Seven was free burning. Search had been made of 7 already from what they said so they had us back up to that point where we were waiting for 7 to come down to operate from the north back down. –Captain Robert Sohmer http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110472. PDF 7. Then we had to move because the Duane Reade, they said, wasn't safe because building 7 was really roaring. –FDNY Chief Medical Officer Kerry Kelly. 8. At this point Seven World Trade was going heavy, and they weren't letting anybody get too close. Everybody was expecting that to come down. –Firefighter Vincent Massa 9. Chief Cruthers told me that they had formed another command post up on Chambers Street. At this point there were a couple of floors burning on Seven World Trade Center. Chief McNally wanted to try and put that fire out, and he was trying to coordinate with the command post up on Chambers Street. This is after searching for a while. He had me running back and forth trying to get companies to go into Seven World Trade Center. His radio didn't seem to be working right either because he had me relaying information back and forth and Chief Cruthers had me -- Q. So everything was face-to-face? Nothing was by radio? A. Yeah, and it was really in disarray. It really was in complete disarray. We never really got an operation going at Seven World Trade Center. –FDNY Captain Michael Donovan 10. Building #7 was still actively burning and at that time we were advised by a NYFD Chief that building #7 was burning out of control and imminent collapse was probable. –PAPD P.O. Edward McQuade http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa- transcripts/pa-police-reports02.pdf page 48. 11. At Vesey St. and West St., I could see that 7 WTC was ablaze and damaged, along with other buildings. –M. DeFilippis, PAPD P.O. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports03.pdf page 49 [Note: the fires in 7 were probably not mainly due to damage from the south tower, but from the north.] 12. So yeah then we just stayed on Vesey until building Seven came down. There was nothing we could do. The flames were coming out of every window of that building from the explosion of the south tower. So then building Seven came down. When that started coming down you heard that pancaking sound again everyone jumped up and starts. Q: Why was building Seven on fire? Was that flaming debris from tower two, from tower two that fell onto that building and lit it on fire? A: Correct. Because it really got going, that building Seven, saw it late in the day and like the first Seven floors were on fire. It looked like heavy fire on seven floors. It was fully engulfed, that whole building. There were pieces of tower two [sic: he probably means tower one] in building Seven and the corners of the building missing and what-not. But just looking up at it from ground level however many stories -- it was 40 some odd -- you could see the flames going straight through from one side of the building to the other, that’s an entire block. –Firefighter Tiernach Cassidy 13. "We were down about a block from the base of the World Trade Center towers about an hour ago. And there was a great deal of concern at that time, the firemen said building number 7 was going to collapse, building number five was in danger of collapsing. And there's so little they can do to try to fight the fires in these buildings, because the fires are so massive. And so much of the buildings continues to fall into the street. When you're down there, Dan, you hear smaller secondary explosions going off every 15 or 20 minutes, and so it's an extremely dangerous place to be." –CBS-TV News Reporter Vince DeMentri http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.secondary.explosions.wmv 14. Well, they said that's (7) fully involved at this time. This was a fully involved building. I said, all right, they're not coming for us for a while. Now you're trapped in this rubble, and you're trying to get a grasp of an idea of what's going on there. I heard on the handy talky that we are now fighting a 40-story building fully involved. Now you're trapped in the rubble and the guys who are there are fighting the worst high-rise fire in the history of New York or history of the world, probably, I don't know, 40, story building fully involved, I guess that was probably the worst. I was, needless to say, scared to death that something else was going to fall on us, that this building was going to come down and we were all going to die, after surviving the worst of it. [Note: I deleted the link this account, and searching the net for the text doesn’t turn up anything. This sounds like an account from north tower stairwell B survivor. Anyone who knows for sure, let me know.] 15. And 7 World Trade was burning up at the time. We could see it. ... the fire at 7 World Trade was working its way from the front of the building northbound to the back of the building. There was no way there could be water put on it, because there was no water in the area. –Firefighter Eugene Kelty Jr. 16. The time was approximately 11a.m. Both of the WTC towers were collapsed and the streets were covered with debris. Building #7 was still standing but burning. ...We spoke to with a FDNY Chief who has his men holed up in the US Post Office building. He informed us that the fires in building 7 were uncontrollable and that its collapse was imminent. There were no fires inside the loading dock (of 7) at this time but we could hear explosions deep inside. – PAPD P.O. William Connors http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa- police-reports04.pdf page 69 17. "There's number Seven World Trade. That's the OEM bunker." We had a snicker about that. We looked over, and it's engulfed in flames and starting to collapse. We're kind of caught in traffic and people and things, and everything's going on. We hear over the fire portable, "Everybody evacuate the site. It's going to collapse." Mark Steffens starts yelling, "Get out of here! Get out of here! Get out of here! We've got to go! We've got to go! It's going to collapse." I turned around, and I piped up real loud and said, "Stay in the frigging car. Roll the windows up. It's pancake collapsing. We'll be fine. The debris will quit and the cloud will come through. Just stay in the car." We pulled the car over, turned around and just watched it pancake. We had a dust cloud but nothing like it was before. –Paramedic Louis Cook (Building 7 fire makes rescuer of NT stairwell victim’s route impassable, just before collapse): I remember it was bad and I'm going to get to a point where we came back that way on the way up. We couldn't even go that way, that's how bad the fire was, but by the time I was coming back it was rolling, more than a couple of floors, just fully involved, rolling. ...So now it's us 4 and we are walking towards it and I remember it would have at one point been an easier path to go towards our right, but being building 7 - - that must have been building 7 I'm guessing with that fire, we decided to stay away from that because things were just crackling, falling and whatnot. So as I’m going back, that fire that was on my right is now on my left. I’m backtracking and that fire is really going and on the hike towards there, we put down our masks, which at this point started to realize maybe it would have been good thing if we had this mask on the way back, but then again between the fire and about halfway when I was on the way back, I got a radio call from the guys that we left and it was Johnny Colon the chauffeur of 43, who was effecting a different rescue. He was carrying somebody out. He had called me and said “Hey Jerry don’t try and get back out the way you went in which was big heads up move because he said that building was rolling on top of the building that we were passing. That building was on fire and likely to collapse more too. Between Picciotto asking me are you sure we can get out this way because it really didn’t look good with that fire and my guy telling me that you better not because of the area we crawled in was unattainable now too. ...we started going back the other way. Q: Would that be towards West Street? A: That would have been back towards what I know is the Winter Garden....[west] –Firefighter Gerard Suden 18. I remember Chief Hayden saying to me, "We have a six-story building over there, a seven-story building, fully involved." At that time he said, "7 has got fire on several floors." He said, "We've got a ten-story over there, another ten-story over there, a six-story over there, a 13-story over there." He just looked at me and said, "Fuck 'em all. Let 'em burn." He said, "Just tell the guys to keep looking for guys. Just keep looking for the brothers. We've got people trapped. We've got to get them out." –Lieutenant William Ryan 19. I walked around the building to get back to the command post and that's when they were waiting for 7 World Trade Center to come down. ...They had three floors of fire on three separate floors, probably 10, 11 and 15 it looked like, just burning merrily. It was pretty amazing, you know, it's the afternoon in lower Manhattan, a major high-rise is burning, and they said 'we know.' –FDNY Chief Thomas McCarthy 20. We were champing at the bit," says WCBS-TV reporter Vince DeMentri of his decision to sneak behind police barricades and report from 7 World Trade Center a half-hour before it collapsed. "I knew the story was in there." But after he and his cameraman slipped past officers, they lost all sense of direction. "From outside this zone, you could figure out where everything was," he says. "But inside, it was all destruction and blown-out buildings, and we had no clue. I walked into one building, but I had no idea where I was. The windows were all blown out. Computers, desks, furniture, and people's possessions were strewn all over." He found a picture of a little girl lying in the rubble. Then he realized that No. 7, aflame, was about fifteen to twenty feet ahead of him. "I looked up Barclay Street," he says. "There was nobody out. No bodies, no injured. Nobody. There were mounds of burning debris. It was like opening a broiler." http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sept11/features/5183/index.html 21. They are worried that number 7 is burning and they are talking about not ceasing operations. –Deputy Commissioner Frank Gribbon 22. There were hundreds of firefighters waiting to -- they were waiting for 7 World Trade Center to come down as it was on fire. It was too dangerous to go in and fight the fire. –Assistant Commissioner James Drury 23. We assisted some FDNY personnel who were beginning to attempt to fight the fire at 7 WTC. We assisted in dragging hose they needed to bring water into the building. –Kenneth Kohlmann PAPD P.O. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa- transcripts/pa-police-reports04.pdf page 26 24. My first thoughts when I came down a little further into the site, south of Chambers Street, was, "Where am I?" I didn't recognize it. Obviously, the towers were gone. The only thing that remained standing was a section of the Vista Hotel. Building 7 was on fire. That was ready to come down. –Charlie Vitchers, Ground Zero Superintendent http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/profiles/profiles_vitchers_t.html 25. The whole south side of Seven World Trade had been hit by the collapse of the second Tower, and there was fire on every floor." – Fire Captain Brenda Berkman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 213) 26. At that point, Seven World Trade had 12 stories of fire in it. They were afraid it was going to collapse on us, so they pulled everybody out. We couldn't do anything. – Firefighter Maureen McArdle-Schulman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 17) 27. The 7 World Trade Center was roaring. All we could think is we were an Engine Company, we have got to get them some water. We need some water you know. With that, we positioned the rig, I don't know, 3 quarters of a block away maybe. A fire boat was going to relay water to us. I don't know if I have things in the right order, whatever, if we were getting water out of a hydrant first. Jesus Christ -- Q. Captain said you were getting water. You were draining a vacuum? A. It was draining away from us. Right. We had to be augmented. I think that's when the fire boat came. I think the fire boats supplied us. Of course you don't see that. You just see the (inaudible) way and you know, we are hooking up and we wound up supplying the Tower Ladder there. I just remember feeling like helpless, like everybody there was doomed and there is -- I just felt like there was absolutely nothing we could do. I want to just go back a little bit.– Firefighter Kevin Howe 28. "When I got out and onto a clear pile, I see that 7 World Trade Center and the customs house have serious fire. Almost every window has fire. It is an amazing site. –Captain Jay Jonas, Ladder 6. (Dennis Smith. Report From Ground Zero. New York: Viking Penguin, 2002. P. 103) 29. Firefighter TJ Mundy: "The other building, #7, was fully involved, and he was worried about the next collapse." (Dennis Smith. Report From Ground Zero. New York: Viking Penguin, 2002.) 30. 7 World Trade was burning from the ground to the ceiling fully involved. It was unbelievable. –Firefighter Steve Modica http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/modica.html 31. So I attempted to get in through the Barkley Street ramp which is on Barkley (sic) and West Broadway, but I was being held back by the fire department, because 7 World Trade, which is above the ramp, was now fully engulfed. –PAPD K-9 Sergeant David Lim http://www.911report.com/media/davidlim.pdf 32. We could hear fires crackling. We didn’t know it at the time, but No. 7 World Trade Center and No. 5 World Trade Center were immediately adjacent to us and they were roaring, they were on fire. Those were the sounds that we were hearing. ...At the same time, No. 5 World Trade Center, No. 6 World Trade Center and No. 7 World Trade Center were roaring. They were on fire. And they were right next to us. So we have all that smoke that we’re dealing with. –FDNY Capt. Jay Jonas http://archive.recordonline.com/adayinseptember/jonas.htm
I have heard the FDNY state, on video, they heard explosions. That was ignored by .gov. There was no reason to make bold claims that a building was going down one hour prior to it occurring, and acting AS IF, it had already happened. They did not do this with the WTC 1 or 2. But did with WTC 7....a building that was shielded from WTC 1 and 2 by other buildings, which did not collapse on their feet. Pulling people out of a building, "because they were afraid it was going to collapse", does also not negate .gov's complicity with causing that very building to become structurally unsound to begin with.
Way to go Mr. Circle...
By your "logic," if bank robbers, who plan their deeds well ahead of time (complete with explosive devices which they have others plant for them), set off the bombs at the appropriate timing, "announce" the building is going to collapse, the fact that they "suspected" the building was going to collapse exonerates them from being suspects themselves with either knowledge about or the planting of explosive devices in a building (which they had intent to rob).
Did I not tell you to stay away from logic or are you claiming that every single one of those quoted FDNY are in on the conspiracy?
Saying it twice only made it twice as stupid.
Imagine how you come across, repeating your .gov propaganda multiple times over.
Yep...all those other engineers...shills...
"Indeed, numerous scientists, engineers and demolition experts have said the official version of the destruction of the World Trade Centers is impossible." Indeed, I have read that a gag order was imposed on the firemen. I wouldn't doubt, as well, that .GOV has, in whatever way it wished, threatened anyone who was a witness and dare to tell the truth. They would lose their job, or be demoted, or lose their retirement, etc. I am aware, personally, of particular individuals during my lifetime, some fairly high up in the government (or, when I was younger, their father was), who were under DIRECT ORDERS not to tell what they know or witnessed surrounding particular events. They don't want the public to know things. Fool!
#1845. To: litus (#1843)
Neither does war, that is why he is here.
infowars.net/articles/march2007/280307blueprints.htm WTC Blueprints Leaked by Whistleblower Unseen documents show official investigations used flawed construction details Steve Watson Wednesday, March 28, 2007 A whistleblower that was on a team working for Silverstein Group in 2002 has made public an extensive set of detailed architectural drawings of the World Trade Center, that prove beyond any doubt that the official reports into the collapse of the towers misrepresented their construction. The documents were passed to physics Professor Steven Jones, formerly of Brigham Young University, who has done extensive research into the collapse of the buildings and contends that explosives were used to bring them down. Little is known about the identity of the whistleblower at this point, however the blueprints provided consist of 261 drawings included detailed plans for the North Tower (WTC 1), the World Trade Center foundation and basement, and the TV mast on top of the North Tower. Most of the drawings can be viewed here. The blueprints, unlike those of any other publicly funded building, have been withheld from public view since the 9/11 attacks without explanation and were even unavailable for viewing by the team of engineers from the American Society of Civil Engineers, who were assembled to investigate the collapses by FEMA, until they had signed legal documents which bound them to secrecy and demanded that they never use the information against the buildings' owners as part of a lawsuit. The website 911research.wtc7.net, one of the sites at the forefront of independent investigation into 9/11 for years now, states: The detailed architectural drawings make clear what official reports have apparently attempted to hide: that the Twin Towers had massive core columns, and those columns ran most of the height of each Tower before transitioning to columns with smaller cross-sections. Both of the government-sponsored engineering studies of the Twin Towers' "collapses" -- FEMA's and NIST's -- are highly misleading about the core structures. Neither Report discloses dimensions for core columns -- dimensions that are clearly evident in the architectural drawings. Both Reports use a variety of techniques seemingly designed to minimize the strength of the cores or to conceal their structural role entirely. FEMA, in its explanation of the collapses, stated: As the floors collapsed, this left tall freestanding portions of the exterior wall and possibly central core columns. As the unsupported height of these freestanding exterior wall elements increased, they buckled at the bolted column splice connections, and also collapsed. The blueprints show that FEMA's report was inaccurate in stating that core columns were "freestanding" when in fact large horizontal beams cross-connected the core columns in a three-dimensional matrix of steel. The NIST report into the collapses has also been proven inaccurate by the blueprints as it has implied that the only the corner columns were "massive" and that the core columns decreased in size in the higher stories when, in fact, the sixteen columns on the long faces of the cores shared the same dimensions for most of each Tower's height. These omitted and distorted facts serve to render the official reports extremely questionable. It seems that facts were being tweaked in order to get closer to an explanation for the collapses. Even then the reports both failed to provide adequate explanations of why the buildings fell. The buildings more or less fell into their own footprints, which is something that normally takes weeks of expert planning when a building is intentionally demolished and there are only a few companies on the planet that can do it. Within each trade tower there were 47 steel columns at the core and 240 perimeter steel beams. 287 steel-columns in total. According to the official story, random spread out fires on different floors caused all these columns to totally collapse at the same time and at a free fall speed, with no resistance from undamaged parts of the structure. Professor Steven Jones points out that the total annihilation of the building, core columns and all, defies the laws of physics unless it was artificially exploded: "Where is the delay that must be expected due to conservation of momentum – one of the foundational Laws of Physics? That is, as upper-falling floors strike lower floors – and intact steel support columns – the fall must be significantly impeded by the impacted mass. If the central support columns remained standing, then the effective resistive mass would be less, but this is not the case – somehow the enormous support columns failed/disintegrated along with the falling floor pans." Below is an examination of the official reports in more detail. The Official Explanation of the collapses of the Trade Towers and Building 7 The official explanation says that the towers collapsed because of the combined effect of the impact of the airplanes and the resulting fires. The report put out by FEMA said: “The structural damage sustained by each tower from the impact, combined with the ensuing fires, resulted in the total collapse of each building". And building 7's collapse according to FEMA was also due to fire, however FEMA could not give specific details: "The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse [“official theory”] remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis [fire/damage-caused collapse] has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue." FEMA is not an investigative agency, but it was entrusted with the sole responsibility for investigating the collapses. It began to coordinate the destruction of the evidence almost immediately. The structural steel was quickly removed and loaded on ships for transport to blast furnaces in India and China. Meanwhile, FEMA's investigation of the collapses consisted of assembling a group of volunteer investigators from the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE), dubbed the Building Performance Assessment Team (BPAT). The group was headed by W. Gene Corley, a structural engineer from Chicago who led the investigation of the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. FEMA's investigation of one of the worst and most pivotal events in history was farcical: *No independent investigation was funded: FEMA allocated $600,000 for the BPAT's study, which included the cost of printing their report. *Except for an early "tourist trip", The BPAT volunteers were barred from Ground Zero. *They did not see a single piece of steel until almost a month after the disaster. *They had to guess the original locations of the few pieces of steel they saw. *They collected 150 pieces of steel for further study (out of millions of pieces). *Their report, which called for "further investigation and analysis", was published after Ground Zero had been scrubbed. A key facet of the FEMA report on the towers' collapse was the pancaking floors theory, whereby each floor successively gave way due to buckled columns and the weight from above. This theory has since been roundly dismissed as it totally ignores the fact that the building's central core columns even existed and also ignores the toppling effect witnessed during the collapse of the South Tower and the explosive pulverizing of all materials into fine powder. NIST's Investigation It was not until long after the Ground Zero clean-up was completed that an investigation with a multi-million dollar budget began: NIST's 'Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation' was funded with an initial budget of $16 million. Where as the FEMA investigation in understanding the Collapse of the World Trade Center could be chalked up as a farce, the NIST's investigation cannot. NIST's results strongly indicate a cover-up. NIST's Final Report on the Twin Towers shows that: *NIST avoids describing, let alone explaining, the "collapse" of each Tower after they were "poised for collapse." Thus, NIST avoids answering the question their investigation was tasked with answering: how did the Towers collapse? *NIST describes the Twin Towers without reference to the engineering history of steel-framed buildings, and separates its analysis of WTC Building 7 into a separate report. By treating them in isolation, NIST hides just how anomalous the alleged collapses of the buildings are. *NIST avoids disclosing the evidence sulfidation documented in Appendix C of the FEMA's Building Performance Study.This unexplained phenomenon was described by the New York Times as "perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation." *NIST has refused to publish the computer models that its report imply show how the fires in the Towers led to "collapse initiation". The report explains the collapse of both towers with the following sentence: "The change in potential energy due to downward movement of building mass above the buckled columns exceeded the strain energy that could have been absorbed by the structure. Global collapse then ensued." So NIST promulgates a theory of "progressive collapse" - ie once the top started coming down, the whole lot came down with it, even the undamaged sections of the building. NIST admits that it didn't even attempt to model the undamaged portions of the building and only modeled a portion of each tower in any detail -- its "global floor model" which consisted of "several stories below the impact area to the top of the structure." Thus the structurally intact floors 1-91 of WTC 1 and floors 1-77 of WTC 2 were excluded from the so called "global" models of the towers. NIST provides no evidence that its model even predicted "collapse initiation". The excellent research website www.911review.com, which everyone should visit, succinctly sums up the cover up perpetrated by the NIST report: In summary: The reports by NIST say nothing about how -- and if! -- the collapse was able to progress through dozens and dozens of structurally intact floors without being stopped. If no external energy was available e.g. in the form of explosives, this would have been the opportunity to show that no such energy was needed. On the other hand, if some unaccounted-for energy broke the supporting structures enabling the collapse to progress with the speed it did, there would have been many good reasons not to try to model the impossible, ie. a purely gravitation-driven collapse. Stopping the analysis early enough also saves NIST from trying to explain the symmetrically of the collapses (despite non-symmetrical impact damage and fires), the almost complete pulverization of non-metallic materials as well as the extremely hot spots in the rubble. These remain as inexplicable by the official story as they have ever been. Despite calls from leading structural and fire engineers, and despite the fact that they published models of the plane impacts, NIST has refused to publish visual simulations from its computer models of the collapses. In an even more startling admission in its own report, NIST reveals that it "adjusted the input" of variables in tests beyond the visual evidence of what actually happened in order to save its own hypothesis: "The more severe case (which became Case B for WTC 1 and Case D for WTC 2) was used for the global analysis of each tower. Complete sets of simulations were then performed for Cases B and D. To the extent that the simulations deviated from the photographic evidence or eyewitness reports [e.g., complete collapse occurred], the investigators adjusted the input, but only within the range of physical reality. Thus, for instance,…the pulling forces on the perimeter columns by the sagging floors were adjusted..." (NIST, 2005, p. 142) NIST simply "discarded" realistic tests based on the empirical data because they did not cause the buildings to collapse. If this is not indicative of a cover up then what is? The investigation is the wrong way round, NIST has already decided what happened and is manufacturing data to prove it! Copyright © 2001-2007 Alex Jones All rights reserved.
No such order exists.
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#8. To: sneakypete (#4)
Or it could just be that she got tired of putting up with all the crap,and just pulled the plug.
#22. To: Cynicom (#8)
Crap????
#25. To: sneakypete (#22)
I guess it's all in the viewpoint. I see more Jew haters calling her names than I see Jews sniveling about anti-Semites.
#28. To: Cynicom (#25)
I can go on LP and demand we nuke the Arab world, and not ONE WORD of disapproval, from anyone, not one.
#33. To: sneakypete (#28)
I think that unless the NWO does take over we will eventually end up nuking several Muslim countries. It is inevitable that sooner or later some fundie Muslim group or another is going to get their hands on a nuke or a bio weapon,and use it to attack a major US city.
#76. To: Critter (#33)
Do you still buy the lie that fundie muzzies hit us on 9/11 without Bush's help?
#78. To: F16Fighter (#76)
complicity by purposeful neglect
#85. To: sneakypete (#78)
Ahhhh,but purposeful neglect is NOT the same thing as "being behind it".
#127. To: F16Fighter, sneakypete (#85)
I don't think they made any real effort to stop any potential attack,but that's not the same thing as saying they planned or encouraged one.
#137. To: Critter (#127)
And even if you can't see the physical impossibility of collapse by fire, you have to be able to see that no plane is going to fly into DC air space unidentified and unintercepted, without inside top level complicity.
#149. To: christine (#137)
And even if you can't see the physical impossibility of collapse by fire, you have to be able to see that no plane is going to fly into DC air space unidentified and unintercepted, without inside top level complicity.
#163. To: tom007 (#149)
#196. To: Rhino369 (#163)
silly conspiracy theories take away from learning the real truth
#198. To: sneakypete (#196)
it allows them to dismiss any questions about their conduct
#229. To: Rotara (#198)
As bright as you are; I don't get it. How can you be so blind ?
#237. To: sneakypete (#229)
This whole thing was planned,executed,and financed by Saudi Arabia.
#265. To: FormerLurker (#237)
Saudi Arabia had nothing to gain from it. Israel on the other hand, had EVERYTHING to gain from it, and are STILL reaping the rewards.
#281. To: sneakypete (#265)
#520. To: war, sneakypete (#281)
(Edited)
Now, they cannot tell you exactly HOW the Towers were brought down only that the catastrophy that we witnessed 9/11 wasn't enough.
#550. To: FormerLurker (#520)
#591. To: war (#550)
You were linked to a report and a graph that makes your characterization look stupid. Yet there you go again.
#836. To: FormerLurker (#591)
BTW. Have you ever REALLY looked at any of the collapse photos? It's obvious that MUCH of the top structure's mass disintegrated into dust and was blown out sideways. That being the case, how was there enough mass left over to cause the structure below to collapse?
#992. To: war (#836)
The steel did NOT disintegrate dickweed...
#1136. To: FormerLurker (#992)
Anyways, the collapse photos most certainly show the majority of the upper structure being pulverized and ejected sideways.
#1145. To: war (#1136)
Post an analysis of the WTC dust as I did.
#1148. To: FormerLurker (#1145)
Now explain to everyone how a dust cloud can cause an intact floor to collapse, as the upper structure was pulverized into dust as it collapsed, leaving very little mass to actualy impact the lower floors.
#1150. To: war (#1148)
The "top structure" was NOT "pulverized"...what WAS pulverized was concrete, glass, people and drywall...
#1220. To: FormerLurker (#1150)
The steel columns are a mystery as they should have remained standing
#1222. To: war (#1220)
What steel columns?
#1225. To: FormerLurker (#1222)
Those which were part of the steel core.
#1229. To: war (#1225)
What makes you believ that they should have been left standing?
#1231. To: FormerLurker (#1229)
For one, it is highly unlikely the supporting bolts and rods holding the trusses onto the core would have been strong enough to rip the core apart.
#1233. To: war (#1231)
LATERAL stability. When LATERAL support fails...what happens?
#1236. To: FormerLurker (#1233)
Nothing
#1251. To: war (#1236)
(Edited)
what happens when you try to stack too much of something on top of each other?
#1252. To: FormerLurker (#1251)
Oh and BTW, the WTC towers were not just a bunch of stacked cans, they were rigid structures.
#1255. To: war (#1252)
(Edited)
Not when the links between the two support structures failed...
#1285. To: FormerLurker (#1255)
, and there was a loss of horizontal integrity as you are trying to claim, it would have fallen over, not straight down.
#1294. To: war (#1285)
You're assuming that the WHOLE structure would have to move...it wouldn't....all it would take would be continuing stress on the building to keep its center of gravity moving enough to compromise its support structure.
#1298. To: FormerLurker (#1294)
You are grasping at straws.
#1306. To: war (#1298)
Dude...firmly anchor a 10 foot pole in the ground 2 feet and shake the bottom and then shake the top...this is BASIC stuff you're arguing against...
#1362. To: FormerLurker (#1306)
In reference to your analogy of a pole, are you trying to say that the towers were swaying all over the place?
#1386. To: war (#1362)
Your problem is that you've assumed a conclusion, i.e. "BOOOSH BRUNG DOWN THE TOWERS!!!" and are trying to construct a fairy tale based upon Moonbatism
#1466. To: FormerLurker, war, TwentyTwelve, Wudidiz, all (#1386)
What is clear is that there are MANY lies and distortions being given as the "official truth" that are simply improbable or impossible, and not only is that reason to investigate what really DID happen, but to wonder why those in the US government and the media would try to coverup what DID happen.
#1468. To: Original_Intent (#1466)
They had to invent an entirely new physics to try to explain away Building 7's collapse - which is laughed at everywhere but the controlled U.S. Media.
#1474. To: Rotara, war, TwentyTwelve, Wudidiz, FormerLurker, all (#1468)
#1487. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker (#1474)
The building's collapse from initiation to completion took 6.6 seconds.
#1511. To: war, FormerLurker, TwentyTwelve, Rotara, Wudidiz, tom007, litus, bluegrass, all (#1487)
The building's collapse from initiation to completion took 6.6 seconds.
#1515. To: Original_Intent (#1511)
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0204-06.htm
#1518. To: litus (#1515)
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0204-06.htm
Fu Manchu Osama Ben Goldstein.
#1519. To: Original_Intent (#1518)
Lots of coincidences.
#1522. To: litus (#1519)
the probability of this many coincidences is mathematically impossible prior to such a catastrophic event!
#1534. To: Original_Intent, war (#1522)
#1541. To: bluegrass (#1534)
O_I thinks
#1544. To: Original_Intent, war (#1541)
#1548. To: bluegrass (#1544)
#1552. To: war (#1548)
(Edited)
This thread is a one long example...
#1558. To: bluegrass (#1552)
#1560. To: war (#1558)
#1564. To: TwentyTwelve (#1560)
A detailed study into the mechanisms of this phenomenon is needed to determine what risk, if any, is presented to existing steel structures exposed to severe and long-burning fires.
#1565. To: James Deffenbach (#1564)
ehehe
#1567. To: Rotara (#1565)
#1568. To: James Deffenbach, Rotara (#1567)
Well, think about it. How many skyscrapers caught on fire and never fell into their own footprint before 9/11? How many after? And of course the answer is that it never happened before or since. Ergo, Magickal Jet Fuel™.
#1572. To: TwentyTwelve (#1568)
Hundreds of buildings worldwide suffered major fires that gutted the entire facade of their structure before 9/11 and did not collapse, but since the twin towers behaved differently
#1593. To: war (#1572)
#1600. To: TwentyTwelve (#1593)
#1603. To: war, wudidiz (#1600)
#1604. To: TooConservative (#1603)
#1605. To: wudidiz (#1604)
It doesn't matter if it was 6, 13 or 20 seconds.
#1615. To: TooConservative, Wudidiz, christine, Rotara, TwentyTwelve, bluegrass, HOUNDDAWG, all (#1605)
It doesn't matter if it was 6, 13 or 20 seconds.
#1622. To: Original_Intent (#1615)
The collapse began symmetrically in 360 degrees meaning it was uniform completely around the perimiter of the building.
#1624. To: war, Wudidiz, TwentyTwelve, all (#1622)
#1625. To: Original_Intent (#1624)
The structure observably collapsed symmetrically in 360 degrees with collapse being initiated uniformly in those 360 degrees.
#1645. To: war, Original_Intent, TwentyTwelve (#1625)
#1705. To: litus (#1645)
#1707. To: war, litus, Rotara, wudidiz, Original_Intent ALL (#1705)
...so what?
#1711. To: TwentyTwelve (#1707)
#1713. To: war (#1711)
The day was one big ball of confusion, moonie
#1714. To: TwentyTwelve (#1713)
#1715. To: war, TwentyTwelve (#1714)
Riiight...because we know that the media gets EVERYTHING right 100% of the time...especially during times of mass confusion...they are the Omnipotent and Omnipresent Beacon of All Things Right...
#1716. To: litus (#1715)
#1718. To: war (#1716)
#1721. To: RickyJ (#1718)
#1726. To: war (#1721)
None of you, to a person, realize how FUCKING stupid you sound.
#1733. To: TwentyTwelve, litus, RickyJ, FormerLurker, Original Intent (#1726)
#1735. To: war, TwentyTwelve, RickyJ, FormerLurker, Original Intent (#1733)
#1737. To: litus (#1735)
And .gov can tell FAIRY STORIES and people like you believe them...all of them, regardless of the fact that .gov has shown itself to be duplicitous, acting contrary to the Rule of Law, trampling over the Constitution, acting as tyrants rather than servants to the People, whose will .gov ignores.
#1745. To: war (#1737)
(Edited)
Which doesn't mean that the NIST report is incorrect.
#1746. To: litus (#1745)
#1747. To: war (#1746)
I base them on facts...what is proveable...what is not...
#1748. To: litus (#1747)
To war: And how many more times does government and the politicians of the U.S. have to prove to you their level of lies, corruption, and willful disregard to the Rule of Law and the Constitution of the United States of America for you to begin to wonder about their motivations and statements?
"When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest."
#1751. To: TwentyTwelve (#1748)
"When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest."
#1752. To: litus (#1751)
#1757. To: war (#1752)
#1772. To: litus (#1757)
#1781. To: war (#1772)
That some people thought WTC7 was going to collapse? You have FDNY on the records as pulling their guys out ofthe buildiomng [sic] because they were afraid it was going collpse. [sic]
#1784. To: litus (#1781)
does also not negate .gov's complicity with causing that very building to become structurally unsound to begin with.
#1787. To: war (#1784)
#1792. To: litus (#1787)
#1796. To: war (#1792)
By your "logic," if bank robbers, who plan their deeds well ahead of time (complete with explosive devices which they have others plant for them), set off the bombs at the appropriate timing, "announce" the building is going to collapse, the fact that they "suspected" the building was going to collapse exonerates them from being suspects themselves with either prior knowledge of or involved with the planting of explosive devices in a building (which they had intent to rob).
#1800. To: litus (#1796)
#1817. To: war (#1800)
(Edited)
Saying it twice only made it twice as stupid.
#1825. To: litus (#1817)
#1843. To: war (#1825)
Yep...all those other engineers...shills.. Yep...that structural engineer...a shill Yep...those firemen shills all...
Replies to Comment # 1843. They don't want the public to know things.
#1846. To: litus, war (#1843)
#1909. To: litus (#1843)
Indeed, I have read that a gag order was imposed on the firemen.
End Trace Mode for Comment # 1843.