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Title: The thread that's changed its focus from the original title. Carry on ;)
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Published: Mar 21, 2009
Author: m e
Post Date: 2009-03-21 08:19:06 by Itistoolate
Keywords: None
Views: 28434
Comments: 2261
Officer Jack McLamb's shows:
arc.gcnlive.com/Archives2009/mar09/McLamb/030209.mp3
arc.gcnlive.com/Archives2009/mar09/McLamb/030309.mp3
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#1959. To: TwentyTwelve, mininggold (#1942)
Like whom? The foxes are guarding the other foxes.
Take note.
lol!
;P
I'm not here if anyone asks. ;-)
Saturday, May 19, 2007 Steven Jones on WTC 7 Collapse: "We Really Screwed Up" Admits WTC 7 collapse time was at least twice as long. (BNN - May 19, 2007 - New York, NY) - In the first candid admission on record by a 9/11 Truth Movement leader of being wrong, Steven Jones (above, left) admitted today that he and other 9/11 researchers "screwed up on the collapse time of WTC 7. We blew it." For years, Jones and others have claimed that WTC 7 collapsed in 6.5 seconds, nearly free fall speed. Jones's admission comes on the heels of a debate on the Rob Bishop show last night when Jason Bermas (above, right), one of the amateur filmmakers responsible for the film, "Loose Change", became flustered when the question of the WTC 7 collapse time came up. Bermas was confronted with the CBS video of the collapse of WTC 7 clearly showing it took over 13 seconds to collapse from beginning to end. "That is a fantasy! I've looked at all the videos. WTC 7 collpased in 6.5 seconds, period!", Jason declared in a nervous voice. Pat Curley, who participated in the debate last night and co-wrote with James Bennett the debunking of the film, "Loose Change", demonstrated conclusively that WTC 7 collapsed in over 13 seconds. "The CBS video clearly shows that the East Penthouse collapsed first, followed by the West Penthouse and the rest of the structure. Between the beginning of the East Penthouse collapse and the beginning of the structure collapse, 7 seconds went by. The structure collapse then took an additional 6 - 7 seconds," Pat explained. Bermas, visibly shaken, responded by completely dismissing the video evidence. Pat pointed out that the 9/11 Truth Movement has inexplicably argued against its own controlled demolition theory for years. "The CBS video demonstrates that internal collapses were taking place in WTC 7 before the entire structure fell. The 9/11 Truth Movement could have argued that bombs were going off inside of WTC 7 to weaken the structure so structure collapse could take place, just like internal explosives are set off to cause a structure collapse in real controlled demolitions. Instead, they adamantly argue that no internal collapse took place before the building collapsed. Isn't that strange?" Responding to the overnight controversy, Steven Jones announced this morning that WTC 7 did indeed take over 13 seconds to collapse. "We screwed up. We had never seen the CBS video when we claimed that it took WTC 7 6.5 seconds to collapse. We only relied on the street video that does not show the Penthouses. By the time we saw the CBS video, we had so much invested in the 6.5-second collapse time, we could not disappoint our supporters who were successfully using the 6.5 free fall time to push 9/11 Truth. We just ignored the evidence. Asked how his revelation would affect 9/11 Truth, Jones said it would enhance and strengthen it. Jones said, "There is no question that bombs went off in WTC 7 to weaken the internal structure before the building came down. That is obvious from the video and why it took over 13 seconds for WTC 7 to collapse."
I guess a lot of you have heard about the website ae911truth where a group of individuals claim that what happened to WTC 1, 2 and 7 could not have happened. This is just a claim, because they have nothing to show for their allegation that it could not have happened the way it did. You won't find any calculations that show how the NIST Report is wrong. On this site, you will find many structural engineers - those who actually know what they are talking about - explaining why the towers collapsed the way they did. So feel free to look at all the information I have gathered about the research done on the collapse on the towers. The research has been published in numerous engineering magazines and all over the internet on engineering sites (See the links on the right side of this site). Only a handful of architects and engineers question the NIST Report, but they have never come up with an alternative. Although at first blush it may seem impressive that these people don't believe the NIST Report, remember that there are 123,000 members of ASCE(American Society of Civil Engineers) who do not question the NIST Report. There are also 80,000 members of AIA(American Institute of Architects) who do not question the NIST Report. Although their field of expertise is not related to the construction of buildings - they don't seem to have a problem with that over at AE911truth - there are also 120,000 members of ASME(American Society of Mechanical Engineers) who do not question the NIST report. There are also 370,000 members of IEEE(Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers) who do not question the NIST report. There are also 40,000 members of AIChE(American Institute of Chemical Engineers) who do not question the NIST Report. There are also 35,000 members of AIAA (American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics) who do not question the NIST report. So who would you rather believe?
true, "13odd seconds" is a duration, not a "freefall speed" which makes no sense because any instantaneous earth-bound velocity could be on some differential curve for free fall; more accurately free fall is an acceleration which the high school math teacher's presentation of wtc7's collapse made abundantly clear was achieved. did it fly over your head like the glorious albatross taking flight, freeing you of your crushing ignorance? how's that for a starter? if only in aid to relieve you of a feigned or real condition...
thanks, that doesn't answer the question
WHA...CHUCKLE....HUH? "Free fall speed" is 32 feet per second per second or 10 meters per second squared FOR ANY OBJECT. There is no "differential curve" for free fall...
The question was why FEMA concluded something. They didn't conclude anything.
jokes are fun! 32 feet per second per second is acceleration due to gravity, i.e. speed increases (not fixed in respect to barreling toward mama earth)
I just typed that.
the question concerned provenance of the sulfur that contributed to the eutectic reaction in steel retrieved from wtc7. are you claiming none was found?
But, in re WTC, when I weigh engineering factors and I am given the opinion of some structural engineer and some by a pastor or a radio talk show host whom do you believe I am going to give more weight to? When I read the opinion of an engineer regarding what happened versus some Moonbat on the internet whose only retort is that I am a government shill, whom do you believe I will give more weight to? A simple yes or no would have been sufficient. LOLOL
speed is distance per second; acceleration is distance per second per second and is the second derivative of a motion curve, remaining constant when an object is subject to gravity only (no additional forces)
Fourteen Points of Agreement with Official Government Reports on the World Trade Center Destruction
not conclusions, son, evidence
Agreed: the “pancake theory of collapse” is incorrect and should be rejected. This theory of collapse was proposed by the earlier FEMA report and promoted in the documentary “Why the Towers Fell” produced by NOVA [7]. The “pancake theory of collapse” is strongly promoted in a Popular Mechanics article along with a number of other discredited ideas [8, 9]. We, on the other hand, agree with NIST that the “pancake theory” is not scientifically tenable and ought to be set aside in serious discussions regarding the destruction of the WTC Towers and WTC 7.
Free fall speed has a direct correlation to the accelerative force of gravity... You cannot claim that an object fell at free fall speed while also claiming that it did not accelerate as such.
The indisputable facts are that all three towers collapsed into their own footprints on that day, that no plane hit WTC 7 that day, that the fires burning inside WTC 7 were hardly overwhelming, and no steel- framed skyscraper had ever collapsed due to fire before or after 9/11 all lead me to the conclusion that WTC 7 was brought down by controlled demolition. If it flies like a duck, quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, dabbles like a duck, has feathers like a duck, and leaves little duckie droppings behind it as it walks around the pond in the middle of the local park, I'm going to call it a duck. The collapse of WTC7 shares all of the qualities of a controlled demolition, and I'm going to call it a controlled demolition. By the way, who started the whole "honey pot" regarding the speed of the fall of the building? That doesn't strike me as terribly relevant, being as the speed of the implosion can be controlled by the timing of the charges. There's been a TON of "honey pots" spread all around 9/11, all carefully placed by those who wait for people to mention one of them, so that the disinformationistas can then jump up and exclaim "No! That ONE ITEM is NOT TRUE! Therefore EVERYTHING they say is WRONG WRONG WRONG". Well, sorry Charlie, I'm not going to play that game. You know and I know that WTC 7 is the weakest link in the official story and the "smoking gun" that points out what really happened that day, and more and more people are wising up to that fact. Bummer for you.
Too many qualified and respected in the industry
#1960. To: war (#1958)
It fell at 6.8 seconds, not 13....
#1961. To: christine (#1959)
The thread that's changed its focus from the original title. Carry on ;)
#1962. To: litus (#1961)
#1963. To: christine (#1962)
This day in 1962
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams 
#1964. To: litus (#1958)
It fell at 6.8 seconds, not 13....
#1965. To: litus (#1958)
Architects and Engnieers for 9/11 Truth
#1966. To: war (#1953)
13odd seconds is not freefall speed. So, that's a non starter right there.
#1967. To: war (#1955)
FEMA's report was a) interim and b) not official.
#1968. To: postpunk (#1966)
which makes no sense because any instantaneous earth-bound velocity could be on some differential curve for free fall
#1969. To: postpunk (#1967)
that doesn't answer the question
#1970. To: war (#1968)
#1971. To: postpunk (#1970)
32 feet per second per second is acceleration due to gravity, i.e. speed increases (not fixed in respect to barreling toward mama earth)
#1972. To: war (#1969)
#1973. To: war (#1945)
Nope. I never claimed that I was but I do have a background in basic physics.
#1974. To: war (#1971)
#1975. To: war (#1964)
Steven E. Jones, Frank M. Legge, Kevin R. Ryan, Anthony F. Szamboti, and James R. GourleyThe Open Civil Engineering Journal, 2008, 2, 35-40
Received: March 17, 2008 | Revised: April 02, 20085. Essentially in Free Fall NIST: [Question:] “How could the WTC towers collapse in only 11 seconds (WTC 1) and 9 seconds (WTC 2)— speeds that approximate that of a ball dropped from similar height in a vacuum (with no air resistance)?” [Answer:] …As documented in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, these collapse times show that: “… the structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass at and above the impact zone. The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that energy through energy of deformation. Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos” [3].
We agree with some of this, that the building “came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos.” This is an important starting point. (Because of obscuring dust clouds, it is difficult to determine the exact fall times, but the statement that the buildings “came down essentially in free fall” seems correct when accelerations are viewed, for the WTC Towers and also for WTC 7.) [13, 14] Further, we agree with NIST that “the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance” to the fall – but we ask – how could that be? NIST mentions “energy of deformation” which for the huge core columns in the Towers would be considerable, and they need to be quantitative about it (which they were not) in order to claim that the “intact structure” below would not significantly slow the motion. Beyond that, NIST evidently neglects a fundamental law of physics in glibly treating the remarkable “free fall” collapse of each Tower, namely, the Law of Conservation of Momentum. This law of physics means that the hundreds of thousands of tons of material in the way must slow the upper part of the building because of its mass, independent of deformation which can only slow the fall even more. (Energy and Momentum must both be conserved.)
Published papers have argued that this negligence by NIST (leaving the near-free-fall speeds unexplained) is a major flaw in their analysis [13, 14]. NIST ignores the possibility of controlled demolitions, which achieve complete building collapses in near free-fall times by moving the material out of the way using explosives. So, there is an alternative explanation that fits the data without violating basic laws of physics. We should be able to agree from observing the near-free-fall destruction that this is characteristic of controlled demolitions and, therefore, that controlled demolition is one way to achieve complete collapse at near free-fall speed. Then we are keen to look at NIST’s calculations of how they explain near-free-fall collapse rates without explosives. We await an explanation from NIST which satisfies Conservation of Momentum and Energy for the rapid and complete destruction of all three WTC skyscrapers on 9/11, or a discussion of alternative hypotheses that are consistent with momentum and energy conservation in these near-free-fall events.
#1976. To: war (#1969)
#1977. To: war (#1971)
3. Pancake Theory Not Supported
NIST: “NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers… Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon” [3].
#1978. To: war (#1971)
only a tiny fraction of steel was analyzed from the WTC Towers, and none of the WTC 7 steel was analyzed by NIST. What happened to the rest of the steel from the crime scene?
#1979. To: postpunk (#1974)
speed is distance per second; acceleration is distance per second per second and is the second derivative of a motion curve, remaining constant when an object is subject to gravity only (no additional forces)
#1980. To: war (#1965)
 | Gold and silver are REAL money, paper is but a promise. |
#1981. To: war (#1971)
CONCLUSIONS
We have enumerated fourteen areas where we are in agreement with FEMA and NIST in their investigations of the tragic and shocking destruction of the World Trade Center. We agree that the Towers fell at near free-fall speed and that is an important starting point. We agree that several popular myths have been shown to be wrong, such as the idea that steel in the buildings melted due to the fires, or that the Towers were hollow tubes, or that floors “pancaked” to account for total Tower collapses. We agree that the collapse of the 47-story WTC 7 (which was not hit by a jet) is hard to explain from the point of view of a fire-induced mechanism and that NIST has refused (so far) to look for residues of explosives [3, 22, 27]. Our investigative team would like to build from this foundation and correspond with the NIST investigation team, especially since they have candidly conceded (in a reply to some of us in September 2007): “…we are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse” [25].
#1982. To: Elliott Jackalope, war (#1980)
bttt!
If it flies like a duck, quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, dabbles like a duck, has feathers like a duck, and leaves little duckie droppings behind it as it walks around the pond in the middle of the local park, I'm going to call it a duck. The collapse of WTC7 shares all of the qualities of a controlled demolition, and I'm going to call it a controlled demolition.
#1983. To: litus (#1978)
It's in those Chinese made toaster ovens at Walmart. They can really stand up to the heat. LOL
only a tiny fraction of steel was analyzed from the WTC Towers, and none of the WTC 7 steel was analyzed by NIST. What happened to the rest of the steel from the crime scene?
#1984. To: mininggold (#1983)
FOFL!!
#1985. To: litus (#1978)
That's a decptinve statment...not all the steel was supporting...
only a tiny fraction of steel was analyzed from the WTC Towers, and none of the WTC 7 steel was analyzed by NIST. What happened to the rest of the steel from the crime scene?
#1986. To: war (#1953)
AH! Finally you commit to a specific collapse time, after several weeks of posturing on your part, that's amazing. Anyways, since the free fall speed from the top of the towers would be 9.2 seconds, how do you account for the destruction of 100 floors of undamaged steel and cement in 3.8 seconds?
13odd seconds is not freefall speed. So, that's a non starter right there.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#1987. To: litus (#1975)
Youn do realize that I already posted this?
The Open Civil Engineering Journal, 2008, 2, 35-40
#1988. To: war (#1904)
Oh, so you think the columns became wet noodles too? Probably becasue of that fire, huh? The same fire that won't melt your steel grill but will cause sky scrapper strength quality steel to turn into wet noddles? You better find another excuse, that one won't work.
Uh no...but the load bearing capabilities of the structure holding up that mass certainly changed...the floor was ssuspended between two support structures...
God is always good!
#1989. To: war (#1985)
Doesn't look at all deceptive to me. Nothing in that statement states anything with regard to all the steel...supporting."
#1990. To: FormerLurker (#1986)
WTF are you babbling about, Moonie. Not only have I stated that on here several times...I've stated it for YEARS. Dude...it's obvious that through our exchanges, you either don't read what I post or you are of such obvious derangement that you don't comprehend what you read.
AH! Finally you commit to a specific collapse time, after several weeks of posturing on your part, that's amazing.
#1991. To: litus (#1989)
WQhy would any other steel need to be analyzed? BTW, if you want to bicth and moan about the clean up speed then I would be in agreement. I beleive ti's criminal that the greedheads were talking about rebuilding the site within a day of the attack and that they tried to thwart the recovery so that they could start construction.
Nothing in that statement states anything with regard to all the steel...supporting."
#1992. To: RickyJ (#1988)
Huh? You need to start subtitling your responses. I can't read Moronese.
Oh, so you think the columns became wet noodles too?
#1993. To: FormerLurker (#1986)
Huh? The 13 seconds, dickweed, was for WTC 7... More proof that you're functionally stupid.
Anyways, since the free fall speed from the top of the towers would be 9.2 seconds, how do you account for the destruction of 100 floors of undamaged steel and cement in 3.8 seconds?
#1994. To: Elliott Jackalope (#1980)
Lie.
that the fires burning inside WTC 7 were hardly overwhelming
#1995. To: war (#1979)
way past correlation, we're talking cause and flipping effect, pal! yes, i erred, hopefully not a capital offense. whatsoever i cannot claim, that sentence above does not help to disconfuse matters. acceleration = faster (increasing speed)
speed has a direct correlation to the accelerative force of gravity
You cannot claim that an object fell at free fall speed while also claiming that it did not accelerate as such.
#1996. To: war (#1991) (Edited)
That's a decptinve [sic] statment [sic] ... You're joking, right? You didn't just ask "why should a criminal investigation investigate the location and debris within and surrounding the area of a crime scene?"
none of the WTC 7 steel was analyzed by NIST. What happened to the rest of the steel from the crime scene?
WQhy [sic] would any other steel need to be analyzed?
#1997. To: postpunk (#1995)
Neither your cause nor your effect are steeped in anything remotelyuresembling reality.
we're talking cause and flipping effect
#1998. To: litus (#1996)
Nope. You are claiming that a controlled demo;lition occurred. To use one of your fellow Moonbat's phraseology...you can't even support he "effect" of a CD which makes your argument of "cause" moot.
You're joking, right?
#1999. To: war (#1994)
Here's some pictures of the WTC 7 fires. Here's some pictures from an overwhelming tower fire, in China this last February. One collapsed, the other didn't. Compare, contrast, discuss.
| Gold and silver are REAL money, paper is but a promise. |
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