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Title: Christians for Torture
Source:
Lew Rockwell
URL Source: http://lewrockwell.com/vance/vance171.html
Published: May 14, 2009
Author: Laurence Vance
Post Date: 2009-05-14 06:58:33 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 647
Comments: 44
The most ardent atheist would be rendered speechless should he hear of Christians for abortion, profanity, adultery, or drunkenness. Of all people in the world, it is certainly Christians – and especially the conservative, evangelical, and fundamentalist kind – that atheists, agnostics, and infidels expect to be opposed to these things. So what in the world is an atheist to think when he sees the widespread Christian support for torture? Yes, torture. But don’t Christians claim to follow the ethics of Jesus and the apostles in the New Testament? Aren’t Christians commanded to put off anger, wrath, and malice (Colossians 3:8), "be ready to every good work" (Titus 3:1), and "live peaceably with all men" (Romans 12:18)? Yes, Christians. What is really tragic is that most Christians who of late have weighed in on the subject of torture are not arguing whether or not waterboarding and other "enhanced interrogation techniques" constitute torture – they readily admit that they do – but that torture is justified in the name of fighting terrorism, national security, defending our freedoms, keeping us safe, or protecting our children and grandchildren. In my recent article "Waterboard an A-rab for Jesus," I mentioned two polls which showed that a great percentage of evangelicals supported the use of torture against suspected terrorists. Now come two additional surveys that are even more shocking. When an Allen Hunt Show poll asked for views on torture, 50 percent of the participants indicated their preference for the position: "Am A Christian – And I Support Torture." Hunt himself, thank God, is opposed to the practice. And in a story on OneNewsNow (a division of the American Family New Network) about Southern Baptist leader Richard Land saying that the use of waterboarding is unethical, a poll asked simply: "Do you agree with Dr. Land? Is waterboarding ‘unethical’?" The results: less than 10 percent agreed with Land. What is interesting about Land is that he fully supports Bush’s war on terror, minus the torture, of course. These are unbelievable poll results. Christian torture advocates should be ashamed of themselves for being so ignorant of New Testament ethics. This is FrontPage Magazine Christianity. This is National Review Christianity. This is imperial Christianity at its worse. I lay a great deal of the blame on pastors for being servants of the state instead of servants of Christ. It is pastors who ought to be teaching and warning their congregations about what is wrong with the U.S. empire, the U.S. military, the CIA, U.S. wars, and U.S. foreign policy. Instead, we have pastors that lead their congregations to pledge to the flag, sing praise to the state on every national holiday, and honor the U.S. war machine on special military appreciation days. It is one thing for Christians to think that the Republican Party is the lesser of two evils, that we should be fighting a global war on terror, that U.S. troops are defending our freedoms by fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, that we are protecting Israel by fighting against terrorism, that it is "liberal" to be opposed to war, that we should fight them "over there" lest we have to fight them "over here," or that Iraq attacked us on 9/11 (all completely bogus ideas) – but this in no way justifies torture. We didn’t torture Nazi war criminals to reveal the names of others similarly guilty. Although we sentenced some of them to death, and some of them to prison terms, we never tortured them even though they were guilty of genocide. We don’t torture serial killers to get them to reveal where all the bodies of their victims are buried. Even when we call them monsters and sentence them to death, we still don’t torture them. We don’t allow police to torture suspects until they confess to committing a crime, and neither do we allow confessions obtained by torture to be used in court. Heck, we didn’t even torture Saddam Hussein when we captured and imprisoned him. We associate torture with Japan (American WWII POWs), North Korea (American Korean War POWs), China (recently deceased Air Force Colonel Harold E. Fischer), and Vietnam (just ask John McCain). We associate torture with third-world prisons, the KGB, the Stasi, and other secret police organizations, the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Reign of Terror, mass murderers, massacres, and genocides. We associate torture with the Soviet Union under Stalin, China under Mao, Germany under Hitler, Korea under Kim Il-sung, Cuba under Castro, Cambodia under Pol Pot, Iraq under Saddam Hussein, and Uganda under Idi Amin. We associate torture with everything that is evil, vile, and inhuman. What have we come to in the United States when people who name the name of Christ support torture? How dare Christians criticize Muslims for saying that Islam is a religion of peace and then advocate the torturing of suspected terrorists. By their support for torture, Christians have given "great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme" (2 Samuel 12:14).
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#4. To: Ada (#0)
What a complete load of shit.
Actually they will burn because they have rejected forgiveness for their sins. None of us live up to being "good".
That is a bold faced lie. Either that or you are really really stupid.
Actually they will burn because they have rejected forgiveness for their sins. None of us live up to being "good". Well they won't actually burn because its a fairy tale like Santa, Allah and Athena, but how can you believe the above is good? If you step on my shoe, I say I forgive you, and you don't respond the the good thing to do isn't, for me to torture you to death is it? I find it hard to believe anyone actually believes this inanity, and I find it even harder to believe people actually believe it is moral. I guess it just shows you how easily people are controlled by lies when fed them by someone in authority. Religion is the greatest conspiracy of them all. It robs people of their rationality.
Complete lie. This article was written by a moron.
_________________________________________________________________________ Tell me, where's the lie?
It's a forum post, not a doctoral thesis. Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
Burn in what? Literal fire, or symbolic fire? None of us live up to being "good". Of course not. He MADE US THAT WAY. .
It's a forum post, not a doctoral thesis. Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
12 November, 2005 Source: www.guardia n.co.uk/uk/2005/nov/12/secondworldwar.world Kensington Palace Gardens is one of the most exclusive, and expensive, addresses in the world: its stately row of 160-year-old mansions, built on land owned by the crown, is home to ambassadors, billionaires and princes. One property bought by the Indian steel magnate Lakshmi Mittal for a reputed £57m is said to be the most expensive house in London. Down the road, a pair of Manhattan tax lawyers are renovating No 6, while next door, No 7, is the London home of the Sultan of Brunei. Over the years No 8 has housed its fair share of dowagers and dukes. Between July 1940 and September 1948, however, these three magnificent houses were home to one of the country's most secret military establishments: the London office of the Combined Services Detailed Interrogation Centre, known colloquially as the London Cage. The London Cage was run by MI19, the section of the War Office responsible for gleaning information from enemy prisoners of war, and few outside this organisation knew exactly what went on beyond the single barbed-wire fence that separated the three houses from the busy streets and grand parks of west London. Years later Tony Whitehead, a consultant psychiatrist in Brighton, recounted in his memoirs how, as a young aircraftsman delivering a belligerent SS sergeant to the Cage, he was shocked to see a German naval officer in full dress uniform on his hands and knees, cleaning the entrance hall floor. An enormous Guardsman stood with one foot on the prisoner's back, casually enjoying a smoke. When Whitehead collected his prisoner three days later, the man was completely subdued, rarely looked up, and addressed him as sir. "I do not know what had happened to him at the London Cage," Dr Whitehead wrote. By examining thousands of documents stored at the National Archives, formerly the Public Record Office, as well as the archives of the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva, the Guardian has established what happened to this prisoner, and many others like him. The London Cage was used partly as a torture centre, inside which large numbers of German officers and soldiers were subjected to systematic ill-treatment. In total 3,573 men passed through the Cage, and more than 1,000 were persuaded to give statements about war crimes. The brutality did not end with the war, moreover: a number of German civilians joined the servicemen who were interrogated there up to 1948. The Cage was commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Scotland, a forceful, outspoken man deemed to have the perfect background. Although English, the colonel had served briefly in the German army in what is now Namibia shortly after the turn of the century, and was later awarded the OBE for his work interrogating German prisoners during the first world war. In 1939, at the age of 57, he was recalled for service. The Cage had space for 60 prisoners at any time, and five interrogation rooms. Scotland had around 10 officers serving under him, plus a dozen NCOs who served as interrogators and interpreters. Security was provided by soldiers from the Guards regiments, selected, one archived document asserts, "for their height rather than their brains". Among the documents stored at the National Archives at Kew is the manuscript of Scotland's memoirs. In his first draft he recalled how he would muse, on arriving at the Cage each morning: "'Abandon all hope ye who enter here.' For if any German had any information we wanted, it was invariably extracted from him in the long run." There was pandemonium at the War Office when the book was submitted to be censored in June 1950. Officials begged Scotland to quietly lock the manuscript away, then threatened him with prosecution under the Official Secrets Act. Special Branch detectives were sent to raid his retirement home at Bourne End, Buckinghamshire. The Foreign Office urged suppression of the book, as it would assist "persons agitating on behalf of war criminals". An assessment by MI5 pointed out that Scotland had detailed repeated breaches of the Geneva convention, with his admissions that prisoners had been forced to kneel while being beaten about the head; forced to stand to attention for up to 26 hours; threatened with execution; or threatened with "an unnecessary operation". The book was eventually published after a seven-year delay, and only after all incriminating material had been deleted. It is now clear, however, that Scotland could have tried to reveal far more. Within the National Archives are documents from two official inquiries into the methods employed at the Cage, one which heard evidence that guards were under orders to knock on some prisoners' cell doors every 15 minutes, depriving them of sleep, and another which concluded with "the possibility that violence was used" during interrogations. There is also a long and detailed letter of complaint from one SS captain, Fritz Knoechlein, who describes his treatment after being taken to the Cage in October 1946. Knoechlein alleges that because he was "unable to make the desired confession" he was stripped, given only a pair of pyjama trousers, deprived of sleep for four days and nights, and starved. The guards kicked him each time he passed, he alleges, while his interrogators boasted that they were "much better" than the "Gestapo in Alexanderplatz". After being forced to perform rigorous exercises until he collapsed, he says he was compelled to walk in a tight circle for four hours. On complaining to Scotland that he was being kicked even "by ordinary soldiers without a rank", Knoechlein alleges that he was doused in cold water, pushed down stairs, and beaten with a cudgel. Later, he says, he was forced to stand beside a large gas stove with all its rings lit before being confined in a shower which sprayed extremely cold water from the sides as well as from above. Finally, the SS man says, he and another prisoner were taken into the gardens behind the mansions, where they were forced to run in circles while carrying heavy logs. "Since these tortures were the consequences of my personal complaint, any further complaint would have been senseless," Knoechlein wrote. "One of the guards who had a somewhat humane feeling advised me not to make any more complaints, otherwise things would turn worse for me." Other prisoners, he alleged, were beaten until they begged to be killed, while some were told that they could be made to disappear. At the time Knoechlein made these allegations he was facing the death penalty, having been convicted of the murder of 124 British soldiers, including 98 members of the Royal Norfolk Regiment. These soldiers had been massacred by men under Knoechlein's command after being taken prisoner on the retreat to Dunkirk in May 1940. He was in a desperate position, and may have been making desperate allegations in a bid to escape the hangman. Nevertheless, his complaint was taken seriously by War Office officials, who considered whether to convene an inquiry. They eventually decided against this, on the grounds that this would mean delaying Knoechlein's execution. There was no legal precedent for this, one official noted, besides which "any court of inquiry into these allegations would be futile". Similar torture allegations surfaced in 1947, and again the following year, when 21 Gestapo and police officers were tried for the murder of 50 RAF officers who had been shot after tunnelling their way out of Stalag Luft III, the breakout recreated in the Hollywood film The Great Escape. The court in Hamburg was told that many of the defendants had been starved and systematically beaten at the London Cage, confined in the cold water shower, and "threatened with electrical devices". Among the defendants was Erich Zacharias, a sergeant in the Gestapo's frontier police. The only evidence against him was his confession which, MI5 noted in its assessment of Scotland's memoir, had been signed only because "being a prisoner in their hands, he had been worked on psychologically". Zacharias insisted that he had also been beaten. Twenty of the defendants were convicted and 14 were hanged, Zacharias among them. It is impossible to discern, from the War Office archives, whether Scotland was regarded by this time as a maverick whose methods were to be quietly overlooked, or whether he was acting with clear, official approval. It is clear, however, by late 1946 there was "disquiet about his methods" being expressed at the headquarters of the British army of the Rhine. By then the Red Cross was aware of the existence of the Cage, although only because its location had inadvertently been included on a list of PoW camps sent to the organisation. A Red Cross inspector called twice at Kensington Palace Gardens in March 1946 but was turned away. In a lengthy memo to the War Office, Scotland explained that he had identified the officer responsible for disclosing its location, and that this man had promised "that this blunder would not be repeated". Scotland went on to argue that the Red Cross need not be admitted, because his prisoners were either civilians, or "criminals within the armed forces", and neither, he said, were protected by the Geneva convention. Should the Red Cross be allowed inside the Cage, he added, he would instruct the RAF to stop sending him prisoners suspected of involvement in the Stalag Luft III murders. "The interrogation of these criminals must proceed in Germany under conditions more closely related to police methods than to Geneva convention principles." Furthermore, he wrote: "The secret gear which we use to check the reliability of information obtained must be removed from the Cage before permission is given to inspect the building. This work will take a month to complete." It is unclear what sort of "secret gear" Scotland wanted to conceal from the Red Cross. It was a further 18 months before the Red Cross could enter the Cage. Its inspector found little evidence of ill-treatment but, as he noted in subsequent reports, 10 prisoners in the worst physical condition appeared to have been moved to other PoW camps the night before his arrival, and there was evidence that any prisoner who lodged a complaint in his presence would suffer reprisals. Despite the growing number of complaints it was receiving about the London Cage, the International Committee of the Red Cross eventually decided to do nothing "through official channels" as it had been assured that its closure was imminent, and because it feared such action would be against the interests of the men still detained there. As the work of the Cage was wound down, the interrogation of prisoners was switched to a number of internment camps in Germany. And there is evidence that the treatment meted out in these places was, if anything, far worse. While many of the papers relating to these interrogation centres remain sealed at the Foreign Office, it is clear that one camp in the British zone became particularly notorious. At least two German prisoners starved to death there, according to a court of inquiry, while others were shot for minor offences. In one complaint lodged at the National Archives, a 27-year-old German journalist being held at this camp said he had spent two years as a prisoner of the Gestapo. And not once, he said, did they treat him as badly as the British.
_________________________________________________________________________ You mean free will.
Tell me, where's the lie? Tell me the names of 10 christians that support torture. It should be really easy since most of us "support torture".
Yes, the writer is an idiot. However, he advances this argument to make the point that we have done things that hitherto we have sworn off as a matter of national policy and in conformance to treaties that we are signatory to. I am not aware of instances where the United States used torture during the WWII, however we know that it was employed on witnesses at Nuremberg after the war, and we know too that torture was routinely used during the Cold War and in conflicts like the war in Vietnam with the infamous use of "tiger cages" to extract information from the enemy. We are aware of this history in spite of the strenuous attempts to conceal the facts. These were concealed precisely because the governments involved knew that they were illegal. Now we live in a world in which well-tailored administration lawyers advise Congress that agents of the president may crush the genitals of children in front of their parents in order to obtain information. The difference today is that now we claim the prerogative to do any damned thing that we please. God help this nation.
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. Gary Bauer,Pat Robertson,James Dobson,John Hagee,Rick Warren,Tim Lehay,.....want me to continue?
Don't you read or follow the news, O.F. ??
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. Ok you have named some names. Now prove that they are christians.
I follow the news, not propaganda. Such as this article.
What free will? Or perhaps you can exercise your mighty free will and stop sinning? While you're at it, could you "free will" me about a million dollars? ,
It's a forum post, not a doctoral thesis. Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
You kidding right....you have been walking with them for the past 8 years
See what he does? He's leading you by the nose to try and get you to prove something that cannot be proven. Those names you list are well known "christians". They are christians because they say they are, no different than Smirk, and that is enough for the vast majority to believe them. .
It's a forum post, not a doctoral thesis. Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
While you're at it, could you "free will" me about a million dollars? You are not coherent here.
Walking with them? WTF are you talking about? My point is that many who say they are christians are not. Even Hitler claimed to be a christian. It is impossible as a human being to know if someones heart is actually right with God. And no I wasn't kidding.
You are correct. It cannot be proven. So that makes you a liar who spoke about most christians being for torture when by your own admission you can't prove they are christians.
But you do support torture. You love it. How many people here have you told to "go to hell", and you meant it? Never mind the fact that there is no "hell" to go to, it's the thought that counts. .
It's a forum post, not a doctoral thesis. Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
Again you are lying.
Liar? Me? LOL! They are self professed christians. I didn't say they were for real. They are the liars, not me. .
It's a forum post, not a doctoral thesis. Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
You said most christians support torture. Now you are saying the fake christians support torture. Sounds like someone is trying to smear the real christians.
Lovely.
How do you know they are not for real. You said it was impossible to tell. Make up your mind would you please.
Backing Torture More Important than Opposing Abortion posted by Dan Savage on November 7 at 8:04 AM Prominent talibangelist Pat Robertson endorses pro-abortion, pro-gay-rights, pro-torture Rudy Giuliani. Make no mistake–this is a coup for Mr. Giuliani’s campaign. Mr. Giuliani spoke at Regent University, the evangelical school Mr. Robertson founded, several months ago and was warmly received. The endorsement helps them quiet talk the talk that had bubbled up among Christian conservative leaders about supporting a third-party candidate if Mr. Giuliani, a supporter of abortion rights is the nominee, and bolstering his advisers’ contention that he can compete among Christian conservative voters who are dominant in early voting states like South Carolina and Iowa. http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/11/backing_torture_more_important_than_oppo
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. I'd watch your video but my sound is messed up right now. I think it is a virus that slows down my computer and slows down my sound.
Is your post supposed to be news to me? Is it supposed to prove something?
What do you think it purports to demonstrate?
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. That there are people who say they are christians when most likely they are not.
It's the Cornflake bug. Just pour some fresh milk on your key pad and it will go away.
I'll help you, OF. Allen Hunt says that 6 out of 10 evangelical white christians support the proposition that torture is sometimes or often necessary. The respondents who were least likely to support torture were those with no religious affiliation. I believe he is citing the results gleaned from a large volume of calls he received in reponse to a broadcast during which he said that he opposed torture.
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. Halleluja. We agree on something. This nation is going down the path of blood and conquest well trodden by christian empires before it.
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. Tell me, who are the "real christians"? Is it someone that believes God will torture people forever in real fire, but dont believe it's right for people to torture anyone? Are THEY the "real christians"??? .
It's a forum post, not a doctoral thesis. Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
/crickets chirping/...
It's a forum post, not a doctoral thesis. Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
Some people work for a living and don't play on the net all day. Hell is real. I don't care if you think so or not.
Some people get to work and play on the net all day. Answer the question, hypocrite. .
It's a forum post, not a doctoral thesis. Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
How am I a hypocrit? I answered the question already besides.
Tell me, who are the "real christians"? Is it someone that believes God will torture people forever in real fire, but dont believe it's right for people to torture anyone? Are THEY the "real christians"???
It's a forum post, not a doctoral thesis. Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
So what in the world is an atheist to think when he sees the widespread Christian support for torture?
#5. To: PSUSA (#1)
According to their sick take on NT ethics, their "god" is going to torture the vast majority of creation in REAL FIRE, for an ENDLESS period of time, BECAUSE THEY DONT BELIEVE AS THE "christian" DOES!
#6. To: PSUSA (#1)
Never mind those that DIDNT EVEN HAVE A CHANCE TO HEAR ONE WORD OF THE GOSPEL! They dont account for those people. They just chuck them into the flames to be burned forever.
#7. To: Old Friend (#5)
#8. To: Ada (#0)
We didn’t torture Nazi war criminals to reveal the names of others similarly guilty. Although we sentenced some of them to death, and some of them to prison terms, we never tortured them even though they were guilty of genocide.
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?”
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#9. To: Old Friend (#6)
That is a bold faced lie.
It's a fine line between being too specific and long winded and therefore too irritating to bother to read, and being too cryptic and therefore too irritating to try to interpret.
#10. To: Old Friend (#5)
Actually they will burn because they have rejected forgiveness for their sins.
It's a fine line between being too specific and long winded and therefore too irritating to bother to read, and being too cryptic and therefore too irritating to try to interpret.
#11. To: Ada (#0)
We didn’t torture Nazi war criminals to reveal the names of others similarly guilty.
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?”
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#12. To: PSUSA (#10)
Of course not. He MADE US THAT WAY.
#13. To: PSUSA (#9)
That is a bold faced lie.
#14. To: X-15 (#11)
Complete lie. This article was written by a moron.
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#15. To: Old Friend (#13)
#16. To: robnoel, Old Friend (#15)
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#17. To: robnoel (#15)
Gary Bauer,Pat Robertson,James Dobson,John Hagee,Rick Warren,Tim Lehay,.....want me to continue?
#18. To: randge (#16)
Don't you read or follow the news, O.F. ??
#19. To: Old Friend (#12)
You mean free will.
It's a fine line between being too specific and long winded and therefore too irritating to bother to read, and being too cryptic and therefore too irritating to try to interpret.
#20. To: Old Friend (#17)
#21. To: Old Friend, robnoel (#17)
Ok you have named some names. Now prove that they are christians.
It's a fine line between being too specific and long winded and therefore too irritating to bother to read, and being too cryptic and therefore too irritating to try to interpret.
#22. To: PSUSA (#19)
What free will? Or perhaps you can exercise your mighty free will and stop sinning?
#23. To: robnoel (#20)
You kidding right....you have been walking with them for the past 8 years
#24. To: PSUSA (#21)
See what he does? He's leading you by the nose to try and get you to prove something that cannot be proven.
#25. To: Old Friend (#13)
It should be really easy since most of us "support torture".
It's a fine line between being too specific and long winded and therefore too irritating to bother to read, and being too cryptic and therefore too irritating to try to interpret.
#26. To: PSUSA (#25)
But you do support torture. You love it.
#27. To: Old Friend (#24)
. So that makes you a liar who spoke about most christians being for torture when by your own admission you can't prove they are christians.
It's a fine line between being too specific and long winded and therefore too irritating to bother to read, and being too cryptic and therefore too irritating to try to interpret.
#28. To: PSUSA (#27)
They are self professed christians. I didn't say they were for real. They are the liars, not me.
#29. To: Ada (#0)
#30. To: PSUSA (#27)
I didn't say they were for real. They are the liars, not me.
#31. To: Old Friend (#18)
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#32. To: Jethro Tull (#29)
#33. To: randge (#31)
#34. To: Old Friend (#33)
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#35. To: randge (#34)
What do you think it purports to demonstrate?
#36. To: Old Friend (#32)
#37. To: Old Friend (#32)
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#38. To: Old Friend (#35)
That there are people who say they are christians when most likely they are not.
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#39. To: Old Friend (#28)
Now you are saying the fake christians support torture. Sounds like someone is trying to smear the real christians.
It's a fine line between being too specific and long winded and therefore too irritating to bother to read, and being too cryptic and therefore too irritating to try to interpret.
#40. To: All, Old Friend (#39)
Is it someone that believes God will torture people forever in real fire, but dont believe it's right for people to torture anyone? Are THEY the "real christians"???
It's a fine line between being too specific and long winded and therefore too irritating to bother to read, and being too cryptic and therefore too irritating to try to interpret.
#41. To: PSUSA (#40)
/crickets chirping/...
#42. To: Old Friend (#41)
It's a fine line between being too specific and long winded and therefore too irritating to bother to read, and being too cryptic and therefore too irritating to try to interpret.
#43. To: PSUSA (#42)
#44. To: Old Friend (#43)
It's a fine line between being too specific and long winded and therefore too irritating to bother to read, and being too cryptic and therefore too irritating to try to interpret.
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