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Title: Emotional Goodbye For Afghanistan-Bound Marines (listen if you dare)
Source:
NPR
URL Source: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104267469
Published: May 18, 2009
Author: Catherine Welch
Post Date: 2009-05-18 19:10:22 by Deasy
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Keywords: Israel, Mideast, Obama, Security
Views: 2895
Comments: 83
Listen Now [5 min 33 sec] add to playlist Marines prepare for deployment as part of the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade, the first major deployment of U.S. Marines into southern Afghanistan. Lance Cpl. Josh Apsey, 18, waves and blows kisses to his family after boarding a bus for the first leg of his trip to Afghanistan on Saturday. All Things Considered, May 18, 2009 · The Marines known as "America's Battalion" are heading to Afghanistan. They are part of the 21,000 additional forces President Obama is deploying in the administration's new strategy for the war effort in Afghanistan. The mission of these Marines will take them to places American forces have rarely been in large numbers. Over the months of their deployment, NPR will focus on the people — the Marines and their families — who will carry the fight in Afghanistan and the burden of keeping life together at home. The Marines of the 2nd Battalion, 8th Regiment have been working hard, preparing for war in Afghanistan. But over the weekend at their home base at North Carolina's Camp Lejeune, it was all about meeting with family and friends, and saying goodbye. At first glance it looked like a large Sunday picnic. A rectangular lawn at the base was filled with hundreds of people. In one spot, a family sat in beach chairs talking; nearby, a young couple stood forehead-to-forehead holding each other tightly. Tom and Vicki Apsey, with their daughter, drove through the night — 11 hours from Tampa, Fla. — to be with their son, 18-year-old Lance Cpl. Josh Apsey. A Bible And Pictures From Home Tom Apsey said his son had talked about being a Marine since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon, but the family thought their then-10-year-old would outgrow the idea. "But he continually talked about it, and he started working toward it. It was a goal of his, and he's exactly where he wanted to be. So, as a father, I definitely couldn't be any prouder of him," he said. With about a year of Marine training under his belt, Josh Apsey said he is ready to go. "My mom, she got me a journal and inserted a few pictures in there, and she's written me a few letters; and I have pictures of my girlfriend and letters from her, as well; and I have a Bible that I keep that all in right now," he said. Josh said his Bible is his most important keepsake for this first mission overseas. In the past few days, mother and son read through the Bible together, going over passages from Proverbs and Psalms. "One of my favorites, Psalm 21: 'Where does my help come from? It comes from the Lord,' " she said. The battalion chaplain, Lt. Terry Roberts, said it is his job to remind the men of their spiritual side, which is often neglected in the heat of battle. Roberts, a Baptist preacher from the hills of Kentucky, spoke from experience. This is his fifth deployment. A Line Of Buses And The Difficult Goodbye The banter between Marines and their family members subsided as the empty buses pulled up to ferry the Marines to the airport. The Marines won't be in touch with their families again until they reach Afghanistan — and then, communication by telephone and e-mail will be difficult. "You know they have come out with a new machine. It's a one-button, text-messaging machine," Roberts quipped, pulling a pen out of his pocket to make the point that the men must learn to write letters. The Marines piled the gear onto the back of a tractor-trailer. Then, they lined up and boarded the buses as loved ones clapped and cried. Before the caravan had rounded the corner and was out of sight, the families had shuffled off to their cars. At the end of the day, a handful of Marines combed the empty lawn, picking up trash and preparing the same patch for the next crowd of families, who will gather outside the headquarters of America's Battalion to say goodbye. Emotional Goodbye For Afghanistan-Bound Marines
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#1. To: christine, lodwick, Disgusted, Jethro Tull, Phant2000, Cynicom, PSUSA, Artisan, HOUNDDAWG, bluegrass, original_intent, fred mertz, Lady X, sushigirl (#0)
It's too bad that someone isn't leading them to DC where they could do more good.
stupid kid. wonder how long it will take him being there to get a clue.
The smooth criminal transition from Bush/Cheney to Obama
A gift from the administration of HOPE & CHANGE™. uh huh.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Hopefully, he will wise up and get out before he gets killed. Afghanistan is a burial ground for would-be occupiers. If anyone needs to know about that all they need to do is ask the Soviets. They didn't have much luck there, at least not good luck. De Hopemobile come a bustin' thru' Afganystan.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. I hope he comes back as on fire as Adam Kokesh. He'll be hardened by what he endures out there in the mountains.
Not stupid Christine. By no means. Immature, unsophisticated indeed, stupid no. I met a lot of other "kids", never a stupid one. A lot of different circumstances brought us together, we each had our own reason. We all became men over night. Consider this, without these kids volunteering for whatever reason, we would have a draft now rather than later.
If they could have only kept him on the "short bus" where he belongs, he wouldn't have been able to leave our shores.
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
If you say that about him, say it about his parents, and his teachers, his ministers, his grandparents and aunts and uncles. Say it about his community. Say it about his nation. We said we would stop slavery, make the world safe for democracy, and end poverty in a generation. Instead we got this.
Well, we are still waiting for your draft, which has been "imminent" for several years now. No, I agree with Christine. The kid is stupid. He has had almost eight years to figure out the "war on 'terra'" is a scam and still flunked. This is indicative of an IQ slightly above that of plant life.
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
What you mean "we," Kemo Sabe?
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
Your conspiratorial outlook helped you to see that things weren't OK. Not everyone is equipped with your preoccupations.
WOW! He said what I was thinking, (only more eloquently) I'm in. Where do I send the check?
"America without her freedoms, is like a body without a soul" - Adam Kokesh
freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=100493 I see you've already found his C4L election campaign announcement thread.
I heard your refrain first in the late 1930s, Roosevelt led the same type of Sam Houston song way back then. Sam, the huge majority of Americans back then bought into your refrain. For two long years it went on and on, all the while Roosevelt and the government were trying to find some way to make Americans swallow the dreaded draft pill. Guess what Sam????? Swallow we did. Wont happen again???? Try 1948, the draft was once again instituted, this time during peace time. May I assume you were around by then to lead the protests???? Somehow I think not. Then up popped Vietnam, did you lead a protest march Sam???? I suspect not. Without volunteers, perhaps your children or grand children would be dragged off to war. Be careful whom you label stupid.
Cyni, i don't see today's enlistees in any way like those who were drafted in past wars. this boy had a choice. he has not done his due dilligence as far as research. there is access to much history, especially Viet Nam from which he could have learned. if not himself, then his parents could have. they have done him a great injustice by encouraging and supporting his decision.
The smooth criminal transition from Bush/Cheney to Obama
now there's a smart kid. "it is our duty to resist"
The smooth criminal transition from Bush/Cheney to Obama
Christine, I see this a different way. Despite our growing list of interactive communications venues, 4um and others like it included, the flow of information is more controlled now than ever before. Jewish power and influence in the areas of media, education, and government builds on itself. What could bring a whole nation into the first world war could also build additional mechanisms of influence between then and now. We live in a society with very tightly controlled opinions.
that's the kind of passionate leadership we need!
The smooth criminal transition from Bush/Cheney to Obama
God bless you Adam Kokesh. You sir, are an American hero *and* a leader.
well, i disagree. this boy and his parents have access to the same information that you and i and the adam kokesh's have. he failed to do his due diligence. he learned nothing from age 10 to now. he will learn the hard way now.
The smooth criminal transition from Bush/Cheney to Obama
I have a neighbor that has a son in Iraq on his second tour. This young man is far from "stupid". Being from a family of modest means, he made the mistake of taking government help to finance medical school. He is on duty 24/7 as a surgeon, amputating the limbs of young kids and old men, day after day, telling them all the same lies, as to how they will be "fine", the government and the military will take care of them, etc etc. Once again, I would never, ever, attempt to judge how any youngster got there, I did not walk in their shoes, I did walk in mine, as a volunteer and people were only too happy to see the "stupid" kids of the lower class be gone. And then the military decided there were not enough stupid volunteers and out went the dragnet. The weeping and wailing by the parents was endless, surely their prized children should be exempt? A few days ago an Army Sgt. was killed in the ME at age 60. He had learned nothing but again he was not stupid. He had 40 years to learn.
Do I so agree with that sentiment.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" Six weeks, for the first doubts to creep in. Unless hes a rapture nutter- than anything goes.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" Try expressing concerns about excessive militarism in our country in 99% of the christian churches in the US and see what happens. In my church the subject is verbotem. The war dosen't exist unless some nut comes in to talk about Armageddon and Israel and the satan worshiping heathens. The usual ancient crapolla. Here it is damn near the greatest concern of our times ----- and the silence is deafening.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" Yes, Yes Yes. Governments have taken advantage of boys since the morning of "civilization".
"Satan / Cheney in "08" One of the best videos I have seen posted on here. Sure wish we had 435 like him in the House and 100 in the Senate. Wouldn't make much difference who the president was if we had that.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Many people don't have the time to devote to trying to understand why things are so upside down from what they ought to be in a free republic based on the rule of law. And most of what the MSM tells us makes sense if we don't understand the complexity of the Federal Reserve's history and the history of Zionism. Even here, most 4um readers are unwilling to look hard at how these things could happen to America. We're talking about trying to change a whole society. And most people aren't as concerned about real liberty as we are, anyway. The things that propelled you and I to look deeper just don't matter to the NASCAR patriots. What we want to do takes a miracle.
i'm betting that today, you'd not volunteer. circumstances are much different now than they were when you did. it was before Viet Nam and before the phony War on Terror. another bet, he and his parents voted for more war.
The smooth criminal transition from Bush/Cheney to Obama
It's up to the Boomer generation to bury their parents and finally leave behind the lies of the second and first world wars. Only we can do it. Those lies were the lies repeated to justify the Iraq and Afghanistan invasions, and the forceful ejection of Arabs from Palestine so that the Jewish "victims" could finally have a "home." We're the ones who have to put a stop to this madness.
whatever the excuse, they have to take responsibility for that, don't they?
The smooth criminal transition from Bush/Cheney to Obama
Their brand of Christianity voids and nullifies that obligation.
That effort has been carried on by foreign interests, and by a small minority of our own people; but it has been so successful that, today, our country stands on the verge of war. At this time, as the war is about to enter its third winter, it seems appropriate to review the circumstances that have led us to our present position. Why are we on the verge of war? Was it necessary for us to become so deeply involved? Who is responsible for changing our national policy from one of neutrality and independence to one of entanglement in European affairs? Personally, I believe there is no better argument against our intervention than a study of the causes and developments of the present war. I have often said that if the true facts and issues were placed before the American people, there would be no danger of our involvement. Here, I would like to point out to you a fundamental difference between the groups who advocate foreign war, and those who believe in an independent destiny for America. If you will look back over the record, you will find that those of us who oppose intervention have constantly tried to clarify facts and issues; while the interventionists have tried to hide facts and confuse issues. We ask you to read what we said last month, last year, and even before the war began. Our record is open and clear, and we are proud of it. We have not led you on by subterfuge and propaganda. We have not resorted to steps short of anything, in order to take the American people where they did not want to go. What we said before the elections, we say [illegible] and again, and again today. And we will not tell you tomorrow that it was just campaign oratory. Have you ever heard an interventionist, or a British agent, or a member of the administration in Washington ask you to go back and study a record of what they have said since the war started? Are their self-styled defenders of democracy willing to put the issue of war to a vote of our people? Do you find these crusaders for foreign freedom of speech, or the removal of censorship here in our own country? The subterfuge and propaganda that exists in our country is obvious on every side. Tonight, I shall try to pierce through a portion of it, to the naked facts which lie beneath. When this war started in Europe, it was clear that the American people were solidly opposed to entering it. Why shouldn't we be? We had the best defensive position in the world; we had a tradition of independence from Europe; and the one time we did take part in a European war left European problems unsolved, and debts to America unpaid. National polls showed that when England and France declared war on Germany, in 1939, less than 10 percent of our population favored a similar course for America. But there were various groups of people, here and abroad, whose interests and beliefs necessitated the involvement of the United States in the war. I shall point out some of these groups tonight, and outline their methods of procedure. In doing this, I must speak with the utmost frankness, for in order to counteract their efforts, we must know exactly who they are. The three most important groups who have been pressing this country toward war are the British, the Jewish and the Roosevelt administration. Behind these groups, but of lesser importance, are a number of capitalists, Anglophiles, and intellectuals who believe that the future of mankind depends upon the domination of the British empire. Add to these the Communistic groups who were opposed to intervention until a few weeks ago, and I believe I have named the major war agitators in this country. I am speaking here only of war agitators, not of those sincere but misguided men and women who, confused by misinformation and frightened by propaganda, follow the lead of the war agitators. As I have said, these war agitators comprise only a small minority of our people; but they control a tremendous influence. Against the determination of the American people to stay out of war, they have marshaled the power of their propaganda, their money, their patronage. Let us consider these groups, one at a time. First, the British: It is obvious and perfectly understandable that Great Britain wants the United States in the war on her side. England is now in a desperate position. Her population is not large enough and her armies are not strong enough to invade the continent of Europe and win the war she declared against Germany. Her geographical position is such that she cannot win the war by the use of aviation alone, regardless of how many planes we send her. Even if America entered the war, it is improbable that the Allied armies could invade Europe and overwhelm the Axis powers. But one thing is certain. If England can draw this country into the war, she can shift to our shoulders a large portion of the responsibility for waging it and for paying its cost. As you all know, we were left with the debts of the last European war; and unless we are more cautious in the future than we have been in the past, we will be left with the debts of the present case. If it were not for her hope that she can make us responsible for the war financially, as well as militarily, I believe England would have negotiated a peace in Europe many months ago, and be better off for doing so. England has devoted, and will continue to devote every effort to get us into the war. We know that she spent huge sums of money in this country during the last war in order to involve us. Englishmen have written books about the cleverness of its use. We know that England is spending great sums of money for propaganda in America during the present war. If we were Englishmen, we would do the same. But our interest is first in America; and as Americans, it is essential for us to realize the effort that British interests are making to draw us into their war. The second major group I mentioned is the Jewish. It is not difficult to understand why Jewish people desire the overthrow of Nazi Germany. The persecution they suffered in Germany would be sufficient to make bitter enemies of any race. No person with a sense of the dignity of mankind can condone the persecution of the Jewish race in Germany. But no person of honesty and vision can look on their pro-war policy here today without seeing the dangers involved in such a policy both for us and for them. Instead of agitating for war, the Jewish groups in this country should be opposing it in every possible way for they will be among the first to feel its consequences. Tolerance is a virtue that depends upon peace and strength. History shows that it cannot survive war and devastations. A few far-sighted Jewish people realize this and stand opposed to intervention. But the majority still do not. Their greatest danger to this country lies in their large ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio and our government. I am not attacking either the Jewish or the British people. Both races, I admire. But I am saying that the leaders of both the British and the Jewish races, for reasons which are as understandable from their viewpoint as they are inadvisable from ours, for reasons which are not American, wish to involve us in the war. We cannot blame them for looking out for what they believe to be their own interests, but we also must look out for ours. We cannot allow the natural passions and prejudices of other peoples to lead our country to destruction. The Roosevelt administration is the third powerful group which has been carrying this country toward war. Its members have used the war emergency to obtain a third presidential term for the first time in American history. They have used the war to add unlimited billions to a debt which was already the highest we have ever known. And they have just used the war to justify the restriction of congressional power, and the assumption of dictatorial procedures on the part of the president and his appointees. The power of the Roosevelt administration depends upon the maintenance of a wartime emergency. The prestige of the Roosevelt administration depends upon the success of Great Britain to whom the president attached his political future at a time when most people thought that England and France would easily win the war. The danger of the Roosevelt administration lies in its subterfuge. While its members have promised us peace, they have led us to war heedless of the platform upon which they were elected. In selecting these three groups as the major agitators for war, I have included only those whose support is essential to the war party. If any one of these groups--the British, the Jewish, or the administration--stops agitating for war, I believe there will be little danger of our involvement. I do not believe that any two of them are powerful enough to carry this country to war without the support of the third. And to these three, as I have said, all other war groups are of secondary importance. When hostilities commenced in Europe, in 1939, it was realized by these groups that the American people had no intention of entering the war. They knew it would be worse than useless to ask us for a declaration of war at that time. But they believed that this country could be entered into the war in very much the same way we were entered into the last one. They planned: first, to prepare the United States for foreign war under the guise of American defense; second, to involve us in the war, step by step, without our realization; third, to create a series of incidents which would force us into the actual conflict. These plans were of course, to be covered and assisted by the full power of their propaganda. Our theaters soon became filled with plays portraying the glory of war. Newsreels lost all semblance of objectivity. Newspapers and magazines began to lose advertising if they carried anti-war articles. A smear campaign was instituted against individuals who opposed intervention. The terms "fifth columnist," "traitor," "Nazi," "anti-Semitic" were thrown ceaselessly at any one who dared to suggest that it was not to the best interests of the United States to enter the war. Men lost their jobs if they were frankly anti-war. Many others dared no longer speak. Before long, lecture halls that were open to the advocates of war were closed to speakers who opposed it. A fear campaign was inaugurated. We were told that aviation, which has held the British fleet off the continent of Europe, made America more vulnerable than ever before to invasion. Propaganda was in full swing. There was no difficulty in obtaining billions of dollars for arms under the guise of defending America. Our people stood united on a program of defense. Congress passed appropriation after appropriation for guns and planes and battleships, with the approval of the overwhelming majority of our citizens. That a large portion of these appropriations was to be used to build arms for Europe, we did not learn until later. That was another step. To use a specific example; in 1939, we were told that we should increase our air corps to a total of 5,000 planes. Congress passed the necessary legislation. A few months later, the administration told us that the United States should have at least 50,000 planes for our national safety. But almost as fast as fighting planes were turned out from our factories, they were sent abroad, although our own air corps was in the utmost need of new equipment; so that today, two years after the start of war, the American army has a few hundred thoroughly modern bombers and fighters--less in fact, than Germany is able to produce in a single month. Ever since its inception, our arms program has been laid out for the purpose of carrying on the war in Europe, far more than for the purpose of building an adequate defense for America. Now at the same time we were being prepared for a foreign war, it was necessary, as I have said, to involve us in the war. This was accomplished under that now famous phrase "steps short of war." England and France would win if the United States would only repeal its arms embargo and sell munitions for cash, we were told. And then [illegible] began, a refrain that marked every step we took toward war for many months--"the best way to defend America and keep out of war." we were told, was "by aiding the Allies." First, we agreed to sell arms to Europe; next, we agreed to loan arms to Europe; then we agreed to patrol the ocean for Europe; then we occupied a European island in the war zone. Now, we have reached the verge of war. The war groups have succeeded in the first two of their three major steps into war. The greatest armament program in our history is under way. We have become involved in the war from practically every standpoint except actual shooting. Only the creation of sufficient "incidents" yet remains; and you see the first of these already taking place, according to plan [ill.]-- a plan that was never laid before the American people for their approval. Men and women of Iowa; only one thing holds this country from war today. That is the rising opposition of the American people. Our system of democracy and representative government is on test today as it has never been before. We are on the verge of a war in which the only victor would be chaos and prostration. We are on the verge of a war for which we are still unprepared, and for which no one has offered a feasible plan for victory--a war which cannot be won without sending our soldiers across the ocean to force a landing on a hostile coast against armies stronger than our own. We are on the verge of war, but it is not yet too late to stay out. It is not too late to show that no amount of money, or propaganda, or patronage can force a free and independent people into war against its will. It is not yet too late to retrieve and to maintain the independent American destiny that our forefathers established in this new world. The entire future rests upon our shoulders. It depends upon our action, our courage, and our intelligence. If you oppose our intervention in the war, now is the time to make your voice heard. Help us to organize these meetings; and write to your representatives in Washington. I tell you that the last stronghold of democracy and representative government in this country is in our house of representatives and our senate. There, we can still make our will known. And if we, the American people, do that, independence and freedom will continue to live among us, and there will be no foreign war. Nothing has changed today.
Correct. However that is now a consideration in hindsight. Just as now, back two generations ago, I and others had to make our decisions on what was before us and calculate our chances of survival. Whether the war was just or unjust was never a consideration, We wanted to survive, if possible. War is and has always been a social class affair. When you are at the bottom of the social ladder, you are always expendable, you are the one that will bleed and die. Even the military will show you the statistics that over 90 per cent of the "volunteers" are from the lower class, blacks being a barometer. There are varying reasons why people volunteer, the overwhelming reason being to escape poverty, joblessness, etc etc. Does anyone honestly believe they enlist to bleed and die??????? That would be absurd. I found myself with an older "kid", college prep, Ivy league, money, he had it all. I could be labeled stupid but certainly not him. Perhaps you know of Charles Bohlen, he was of that family. Why was he there???? I never knew.
During WWII, many, many American men believed they had to fight and die to preserve America's sovereignty, its borders, and their families. And now look at us.
Yeah, well, the universities in Hitler's and Stalin's time were crammed with the best brains of their generations and probably provided many of the most gung ho volunteers. It seems to me like the most intelligent are often most susceptible to the waves of propaganda that their masters disseminate, most probably because propaganda is not aimed at the stupid. It is aimed at the moderately to highly literate because such people form the class that leadership is drawn from and does the most to form opinion at large. All the 'Pubicans I know who are just fine with this war and include pious prayers for the troop in saying grace at the table are educated folks. It is almost impossible to discuss the subject with them. Small wonder that some of their children sign up. The less educated follow in hopes of getting education and benefits. So, is the kid "stupid?" He may be, but he is probably not. He is a victim of mainstreamthink that has effectivly marginalized criticism of the war while propagating the fear of mythological threats to the homeland. Thanks to the "government" and thanks to the "media." Damn them to hell.
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. The same government, and the same media, that brought us into WWII.
What you have written is a myth, begun as propaganda and perpetuated by the governing elite to ensure that WW2 will always be viewed as a just and necessary war. We did not believe it then and for present generations to accept it as the truth, is a positive indication that the government,has indeed been successful in brain washing the following generations thru education. Roosevelt and his Communist friends conned the American people then and the myth continues.
My ex-neighbor...a proud "progressive" Democrat, ACLU member, PhD in a Carnegie fellowship is the most over-educated dummie I ever met. He's almost robotic.
How ironic that both the boys of WWII and today's kids had/have as a CIC a socialist.
Yes, they are one and the same for all intents and purposes, and all of this is just another chapter in their project. They have more sizable foes in their sights this time, and these adversaries are not stupid, nor are they ignorant of their methods.
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. Agreed... Sam needs to review, Witness, by Whitaker Chambers. The people that brought us WW2 were the elite liberal Ivy League people, mostly all Harvard grads just as we have now.
Allow me to jump in here I sure as hell did not volunteer but I had no option and hated every moment of it however when I look back it had a profound effect on my life I learned discipline,respect and that I had the power to do whatever I thought was impossible ....there is something to be said about the military experience takes a kid who thinks he is bullet proof and then kicks his ass into reality ...the war stuff is a whole other story
The latter part is true, but some families, and I grew up in one, believed. And they bled for it.
rob... "Kids" volunteer for the military for many reasons, but THEY DO NOT volunteer to bleed and die. There are hosts of other reasons but stupidity and a death wish are not included. I did not serve with a single gung ho person, not one. We had jobs to do, we did them and hoped every day that we would survive. I hate war but I hate our government more.
What do you think, Cyni? Do you sense that our eggheads will take on both the Bear and the Dragon? That could be a mouthful. Like fighting a war on an Eastern and a Western front. What's your scenario en precis?
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. Sadly, I must agree. More senseless deaths for us, and them, who are only growing more poppies for the CIA, and poppy himself. What a waste of lives.
True but stop and think about what you have written. WW2 was ALWAYS portrayed as a just and noble cause, the brain washing worked then and now. Consider after WW2, NO war has been portrayed as just and necessary, not a one, just WW2. Why is that?????
Guaranteed. If you had lived thru the 1930s, to see the nations aligning themselves as if in slow motion, our present days look like a rerun.
Yes I hear you but you can't disagree with what the military does to change a kid to man in 6 weeks
Oh, please. I know the story. I grew up in a liberal college town. By the time I got done with high school, the one thing on my mind was getting the hell out of there. I hung out with working class kids. Not because I had to, but because I wanted to. The atmosphere that these "progressives" created was mind-numbing.
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. All I'm saying is that in the minds of my relatives, the myth was real. It wasn't that they had to be persuaded later, they believed. And they continued to believe.
rob... I meant to agree with you on that. They teach all how to kill, which is easily done, but then it becomes difficult when you realize someone is trying to kill you. Then it becomes survival, very personal. My brother is buried in Holland, one among a thousand unknowns in one cemetery. Think of that, one thousand unknowns in one place. We never thought of WW2 as being a just war. All of that patriotic talk was a myth then and now.
You are quite correct, it was drummed into peoples heads day and night, endlessly. Indeed the myth was real in peoples minds. However the government knew better. People WANT to believe their government, people want to be loyal and patriotic, that is in all of us, and it makes us susceptible to mind bending.
And now we seem to have sealed our belief in the righteousness of that war with the blood we shed, both the enemy's and our own. I don't know how to break the cycle.
Have you read this Lt. Erin Watada and a Standing Army by Jacob G. Hornberger The case of Lt. Erin Watada provides a good example of why our American ancestors opposed a standing army. You’ll recall that Watada is the U.S. military officer who refused orders to deploy to Iraq on the ground that to do so would constitute the war crime of waging a war of aggression. The U.S. Army prosecuted him for refusing to obey such orders but then screwed up by agreeing to the granting of a mistrial after Watada’s trial had already begun. Since another trial would have violated the constitutional provision on double jeopardy, U.S. military officials have recently decided to drop the charges. Still pending are charges relating to Watada’s criticism of President Bush.
Very good... And it has come to bother your conscience, is that correct????? I was most fortunate back in the 1930s to have a Father that was an American and a conservative and railed every day about Roosevelt. I recall the fireside chats when FDR like Sam denied, denied and denounced there would never be another military draft. My father would call him a lying SOB. However the majority thought of FDR as the Savior and worshiped him in return. When FDR dragged off their children and grand children for war, they fell silent.
Have you watched the 1988 film "The Beast of War" with George Dzundza, Jason Patric and Stephen Bauer? It's a great film about a Soviet tank crew on "hearts and minds patrol" in Afghanistan, and I highly recommend it if you enjoy uplifting morality plays about courageous guerilla fighters. Their guts, skill and experience as tribal warriors are more than ample compensation for their lack of technology, and in no time a seasoned Soviet tank crew is dreading contact with the enemy.... Dzundza is the tank commander and he's a truly evil bastard who greased his tank tracks with the body of a local villager and, well, he shouldn't have done that! His fate in the film is something I wouldn't wish on many. And, I hate to think of 19 yr old Americans (and Brits) risking similar horrors just to keep the opium poppies in full bloom in the land where Alexander The Great became Alexander the Mediocre.
Yes. And I disliked him for what he did, and on the other side I have the utmost respect for the stand he took.
I wonder what brainwashing techniques and propaganda they're using on these kids to get them to Kill Kill Kill people who have done nothing to us??
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
Yes. Dresden, Nagasaki, Berlin... millions of innocent dead Germans and Japanese.
Funny....the film was released in the USA as "The Beast", not "The Beast of war". "America without her freedoms, is like a body without a soul" - Adam Kokesh
The mantra: we've done nothing to deserve bin Laden's hatred. 9/11 was a hate crime against freedom. We're all Israelis now. America is going to save the world again.
Mine too. However the FDR lovers changed tunes when they realized he had lied to them for many years.
how about if i say instead that the kid's decision is stupid. he thinks he's fighting for our freedom and against terrorists. he'll learn soon enough.
The smooth criminal transition from Bush/Cheney to Obama
The Beast darn, Netflix doesn't have it.
The smooth criminal transition from Bush/Cheney to Obama
I'm watching it now on ewe toob.
We're all There. Fixed it.
well that is kind of you to refrain from calling them stupid. I voted for bush senior, twice, and for bush junior in 2000. so, a lot of the new world order stuff was known by plenty of people long before that. hell i supposedly knew something about it before 2000, hearing about the ''international bankers' and how kissinger was a 'dog' from the time i was a kid. yet i still voted for 2 bushes? was i stupid? looking back it would be easy to accuse myself of being naive and ignorant but stupid, maybe not. so, there is always hope. those decieved become the greatest adversaries of tyranny once they realize who the enemy is. heck, i think i am still learning every day who the enemy is, and how they operate. it is an ongoing process.
Glory to God in the highest, and Peace to His people on Earth. Oh, please. I know the story. I grew up in a liberal college town. By the time I got done with high school, the one thing on my mind was getting the hell out of there. I finally figured it out, thanks to Dr. Iris Metts. (She has more diplomas than Sidney Poitier in GUESS WHO'S COMING TO DINNER, but, she "buhleez dat black folks need affirmative action" despite the fact that there were bidding wars to hire her as superintendent of schools in DE, MD other states and for a federal post.) These good people may be heavily credentialed and not have the present ability to expel urine from knee high footwear, but it's because their indoctrination is not about critical thinking or the scientific method-it's about unflagging adherence to dogma. And, the reason why they abuse heretics or blasphemers is because that was how their teachers dealt with the problem when they were "up th' college!" But, what choice was there? One cannot rationally explain and teach the irrational and inexplicable, i.e., IQ tests are a fair measure of aptitude and intelligence except for American born and raised blacks who apparently speak a different language and who have only a marginal familiarity with American icons, traditions, culture, science, physics or history. For instance, a question that asks "If you pass a man on the street in the morning are you more likely to see him carrying a; A) Newspaper, or B) Cane? In the ghetto the correct answer is B. Canes are carried as weapons. The Chitlin Test But G_D help you if you suggest that blacks are more violence prone or that blacks don't read. But, anyone who can read may easily verify that the black ghettos in Wilmington and Dover are responsible for the obscenely high numbers of gun homicides in this state. But, any who suggest that there's a correlation between black assailants and victims and a cultural predisposition for violence are "h8terz". Not because it's false or even unproven but because it will hurt and anger some people, who may then kill the offending person if the opportunity arises. Dat honkey is tryin'to hold us down by sayin dat we blacks is violent. And now I got to kill him for dat!"
Hey, old friend, don't beat yourself up about it. They don't advertise like TRUCKMASTERS SCHOOL OF TRUCKING and there aren't any universities that specialize by awarding DOCTORATES IN GLOBAL CONSPIRACIES. In fact, the PWs (Power Whisperers) monopolize and control every form of mass communication and pop culture, and that influence is used to condition us as kids to eschew such suspicious thinking about them or their agenda(s). The "good guys" are clean cut and clean living. Remember the cops on ADAM 12, and The JEE MEN on THE EEF BEE EYE? and the wild eyed kooks look like Theodore "If you think I Need A Haircut I'LL BLOW THIS PLACE UP!" Kaczynski) And don't ever overlook the fact that a lifetime of trial and error of combining professional TV, film, academic and social indoctrination methodologies (not to mention involuntary or ill informed drug experiments on some poor souls and then announcing them and daring us to try and stop them in the future as ancillary experiments on the rest of us) are quite possibly taught in secret locations and respected like an alchemist's recipe for turning lead into gold, because they're the most powerful human resource tools in the universe. To quote The Man, "When I think back on all the (DAWGIE DEW) I learned in high school, It's a wunder I can think a tall!"
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
I would buy that. I made a lot of stupid mistakes as a kid. I realized with your original post you meant nothing harmful for the kid, however, most of us except Sam Houston, were once kids and made horrible mistakes.
A lot of us were stupid. My first lesson in "party" politics was when both "parties" offered the nomination to Eisenhower. How could that be??????? My personal alarm bells went off but I was not astute or mature enough to understand what it all meant. I voted Ike because he stopped the war and I got to go home, alive. That meant a lot.
Ike was the Supreme Allied Commander of the allied forces that won the war for The Soviets. And, since a certain tiny but influential ethnic minority wanted commieism to prevail over the other isms, Ike was our greatest living war hero. (Discounting Sgt. Alvin C. York of course. He didn't have the power to starve thousands of Germans after the cessation of formal hostilities, so, his hero status was...ho hum... to the folks who molded public opinion then. And, Nazi sympathizer George S. Patton? well, the less said about him after his welcome, timely and likely arranged demise the better. I can certainly understand why the DEMs wanted IKE, too. After all, the people behind the curtain of both parties (then and now) were the same elated victims who were relying on IKE's anti German-pro reparations zeal. ________________________ From wiki: "He made the decision to reclassify German prisoners of war (POWs) in U.S. custody as Disarmed Enemy Forces (DEFs), thus depriving them of the protection of the Geneva convention. As DEFs, their food rations could be lowered and they could be compelled to serve as unfree labor (see Rheinwiesenlager). Eisenhower was an early supporter of the Morgenthau Plan to permanently remove Germany's industrial capacity to wage future wars. In November 1945 he approved the distribution of 1000 free copies of Morgenthau's book Germany is Our Problem, which promoted and described the plan in detail, to American military officials in occupied Germany. Historian Stephen Ambrose draws the conclusion that, despite Eisenhower's later claims the act was not an endorsement of the Morgenthau plan, Eisenhower both approved of the plan and had previously given Morgenthau at least some of his ideas about how Germany should be treated.[36] He also incorporated officials from Morgenthau's Treasury into the army of occupation. These were commonly called "Morgenthau boys" for their zeal in interpreting the occupation directive JCS 1067, which had been heavily influenced by Morgenthau and his plan, as strictly as possible.[37] And this: "Throughout his presidency, Eisenhower preached a doctrine of dynamic conservatism.[citation needed](Too funny! This was the Republicans giving our Jewish bruthas and sistas what they wanted while selling it as some kind of "dynamic conservatism." The mood of the country was such that the PWs could draft and slip the IRS Code of 1954 to us shortly after._HD) so He continued all the major New Deal programs still in operation, especially Social Security. He expanded its programs and rolled them into a new cabinet-level agency, the Department of Health, Education and Welfare, while extending benefits to an additional ten million workers. His cabinet, consisting of several corporate executives and one labor leader, was dubbed by one journalist, "Eight millionaires and a plumber."[42] Eisenhower won his second term in 1956 with 457 of 531 votes in the Electoral College, and 57.6% of the popular vote." By the time he warned the country about the military industrial complex it was too little too late. And, he must have known that he was largely responsible with his "strong, anti commie NATO" commitment. And then there was this: "Civil rights "Eisenhower supported the 1954 Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka U.S. Supreme Court decision, in which segregated ("separate but equal") schools were ruled to be unconstitutional. The very next day he told District of Columbia officials to make Washington a model for the rest of the country in integrating black and white public school children.[48][49] He proposed to Congress the Civil Rights Acts of 1957 and 1960 and signed those acts into law. Although both Acts were weaker than subsequent civil rights legislation, they constituted the first significant civil rights acts since the 1870s. The "Little Rock Nine" incident of 1957 involved the refusal by Arkansas to honor a Federal court order to integrate the schools. Under Executive Order 10730, Eisenhower placed the Arkansas National Guard under Federal control and sent Army troops to escort nine black students into an all-white public school. The integration did not occur without violence. Eisenhower and Arkansas governor Orval Faubus engaged in tense arguments." Do you see why the DEMS couldn't have fielded a more responsive hand puppet? And, what could an anti IKE platform possibly have been? "Sure, IKE won the war but do we really want a bald man as our president?"
That was a shocker to everyone that was paying attention. It was too late then to discredit Ike and what he had to say. Your outline of Ikes past is correct and it was managed by the democrat Jew Bernard Baruch. Ike was a user. After West Point he attached himself to General Fox Connor as a paper shuffler and yes man. Connor was the one that got Ike into all the proper military schools between wars. After Connor, Baruch took over and kept Ike in important planning and paper jobs until war broke out. When Ike became Commander in Europe he had climbed over 153 senior officers on his way to the top, INCLUDING PATTON. In Europe he was smart enough to know that in Patton he had a general that would fight. Upon cessation of combat all general officers were due to be reduced to their permanent ranks, meaning Patton would then become Ikes superior. If one takes time to read the letters from Patton to his wife, there are conclusions that can honestly be drawn. I cannot recall his written words but in essence he told his wife he would not be allowed to come home...ALIVE... Patton also voiced his opinions concerning the Jews of Europe and at home. Only a fool would believe his letters not read by others.
No, I haven't seen it but thanks for the tip. Sounds like a good movie.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. We are talking semantics. Okay, maybe he and the others are not "stupid" then, but they are "deliberately and perpetually ignorant" of everything going on around them.
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
If one of these kids can enunciate one sound reason for becoming part of this invading force, I'll stand in the crowd and wave the flag.
you are forgetting the contingent that volunteer to kill though. i'm thinking the mercenaries, gang members, the thugs who threw the puppy off the cliff and the maniacs who took part in the abu graib and other prison torture. i would assert that today's GIs are not anywhere near the quality of human being that were the GIs of wars past.
The smooth criminal transition from Bush/Cheney to Obama
What you point out is a reflection of the degradation of society that has taken place since WW2. All armies thruout history have never been made up of saints, not one. Any army is made up of a cross section of what is available from society. Armed military units in the past and present, are constituted of murderers, thieves, adulterers, God fearing men, family men, law abiding men...what society produces. It is a fact, reflected by people here, that it is rare for a member of the elite upper class to serve, the majority of the middle class will do anything to avoid military duty. So who does that leave? It leaves people such as myself from the lowest class, that are labeled stupid for doing something that will be done by the lowest class anyway, either voluntarily or by draft when necessary. Some time ago, the government printed a review of those that died in WW2, the deaths and injuries by social ranking, the odds of each class dying. The odds of an elite military person being killed were nearly zero, at the other extreme opposite end, those on the bottom of the social ladder, their odds of dying were very great.
yes. this is true. another consideration is the number of foreign (noncitizens) in the ranks. do you happen to know the percentage? i heard that the largest recruiting stations now are in other countries. It leaves people such as myself from the lowest class, that are labeled stupid for doing something that will be done by the lowest class anyway i want to reiterate that i see a vast difference between you and those who volunteered then to those who volunteer now. circumstances were very different then and i would never label you stupid. today's volunteers have access to much more information and history. i feel the same frustration and irritation with them as i do those who vote and support this corrupt, imperialistic government.
The smooth criminal transition from Bush/Cheney to Obama
You hang with Turtle and some of his Brains will rub off on you. I have plenty to spare.
Reading on his letters home at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Patton one notes the phrase "increasingly erratic." The Mandarins fear those who are powerful enough to grant them their terrible wishes. Patton understood that we were crushing the most effective enemies of communism.
#2. To: Deasy (#0)
Tom Apsey said his son had talked about being a Marine since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon, but the family thought their then-10-year-old would outgrow the idea.
#3. To: Deasy (#0)
They are part of the 21,000 additional forces President Obama is deploying in the administration's new strategy for the war effort in Afghanistan.
Lord Acton
#4. To: christine (#2)
stupid kid. wonder how long it will take him being there to get a clue.
Lord Acton
#5. To: christine (#2)
stupid kid. wonder how long it will take him being there to get a clue.
#6. To: christine (#2)
stupid kid. wonder how long it will take him being there to get a clue.
#7. To: christine (#2)
#8. To: Sam Houston (#7)
#9. To: Cynicom (#6)
#10. To: Deasy (#8)
#11. To: Sam Houston (#9)
#12. To: Deasy (#5)
Adam Kokesh
#13. To: Flintlock (#12)
#14. To: Sam Houston (#9)
(Edited)
Well, we are still waiting for your draft, which has been "imminent" for several years now.
#15. To: Cynicom (#6)
#16. To: Deasy (#5)
#17. To: christine, Cynicom, Sam Houston (#15)
#18. To: Deasy (#5)
#19. To: Deasy, Os (#5)
#20. To: Deasy (#17)
#21. To: christine (#15)
Cyni, i don't see today's enlistees in any way like those who were drafted in past wars.
#22. To: Deasy (#1)
It's too bad that someone isn't leading them to DC where they could do more good.
#23. To: christine (#2)
stupid kid. wonder how long it will take him being there to get a clue.
#24. To: Deasy (#17)
We live in a society with very tightly controlled opinions.
#25. To: Cynicom (#21)
Once again, I would never, ever, attempt to judge how any youngster got there, I did not walk in their shoes
#26. To: Deasy (#5)
Lord Acton
#27. To: christine (#20)
...well, i disagree. this boy and his parents have access to the same information that you and i and the adam kokesh's have.
#28. To: Cynicom (#21)
#29. To: christine, Cynicom (#28)
#30. To: Deasy (#27)
The things that propelled you and I to look deeper just don't matter to the NASCAR patriots.
#31. To: christine (#30)
#32. To: All, *Up to the Sun* (#29)
It is now two years since this latest European war began. From that day in September, 1939, until the present moment, there has been an over-increasing effort to force the United States into the conflict.
#33. To: christine, tom007 (#28)
i'm betting that today, you'd not volunteer.
#34. To: Cynicom (#33)
Does anyone honestly believe they enlist to bleed and die?
#35. To: Sam Houston, Cynicom (#9)
The kid is stupid. He has had almost eight years to figure out the "war on 'terra'" is a scam and still flunked. This is indicative of an IQ slightly above that of plant life.
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#36. To: randge (#35)
Thanks to the "government" and thanks to the "media."
#37. To: Deasy (#34)
During WWII, many, many American men believed they had to fight and die to preserve America's sovereignty, its borders, and their families.
#38. To: randge (#35)
It is almost impossible to discuss the subject with them.
#39. To: Deasy (#34)
(Edited)
During WWII, many, many American men believed they had to fight and die to preserve America's sovereignty, its borders, and their families. And now look at us.
#40. To: Deasy (#36)
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#41. To: randge (#35)
It seems to me like the most intelligent are often most susceptible to the waves of propaganda that their masters disseminate, most probably because propaganda is not aimed at the stupid. It is aimed at the moderately to highly literate because such people form the class that leadership is drawn from and does the most to form opinion at large.
#42. To: Cynicom (#33)
#43. To: Cynicom (#37)
What you have written is a myth, begun as propaganda and perpetuated by the governing elite to ensure that WW2 will always be viewed as a just and necessary war.
#44. To: robnoel (#42)
#45. To: Cynicom (#41)
(Edited)
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#46. To: Deasy. all (#1)
It's too bad that someone isn't leading them to DC where they could do more good.
#47. To: Deasy (#43)
The latter part is true, but some families, and I grew up in one, believed. And they bled for it.
#48. To: randge (#45)
Do you sense that our egghead will take on both the Bear and the Dragon?
#49. To: Cynicom (#44)
#50. To: CadetD (#38)
My ex-neighbor...a proud "progressive" Democrat, ACLU member, PhD in a Carnegie fellowship is the most over-educated dummie I ever met. He's almost robotic.
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#51. To: Cynicom (#47)
WW2 was ALWAYS portrayed as a just and noble cause, the brain washing worked then and now.
Consider after WW2, NO war has been portrayed as just and necessary, not a one, just WW2. Why is that?????
A profound question. Let me know if you want an extended reply, perhaps tomorrow or later when I've thought about it. I know that WWII helped to destroy most remaining faith that ethnic nationalism could be a bulwark against collectivism. This was a small miracle, because ethnic (Anglo-Gaul-American) nationalism was used to justify our entry into the war.
#52. To: robnoel (#49)
Yes I hear you but you can't disagree with what the military does to change a kid to man in 6 weeks
#53. To: Deasy (#51)
All I'm saying is that in the minds of my relatives, the myth was real
#54. To: Cynicom (#53)
You are quite correct, it was drummed into peoples heads day and night, endlessly.
People WANT to believe their government, people want to be loyal and patriotic, that is in all of us, and it makes us susceptible to mind bending.
After all, this is the most free country on the earth. How can its government ever be that wrong? I've heard that so many times.
#55. To: Cynicom (#53)
#56. To: Deasy (#54)
After all, this is the most free country on the earth. How can its government ever be that wrong? I've heard that so many times.
#57. To: James Deffenbach, Deasy, christine (#4)
(Edited)
Hopefully, he will wise up and get out before he gets killed. Afghanistan is a burial ground for would-be occupiers. If anyone needs to know about that all they need to do is ask the Soviets. They didn't have much luck there, at least not good luck.
#58. To: robnoel (#55)
Have you read this
#59. To: Deasy (#0)
#60. To: Cynicom (#56)
And it has come to bother your conscience, is that correct?
However the majority thought of FDR as the Savior and worshiped him in return. When FDR dragged off their children and grand children for war, they fell silent.
Silent? Hell in my family, I've been told there were gold stars in the windows.
#61. To: HOUNDDAWG (#57)
Have you watched the 1988 film "The Beast of War"
#62. To: IndieTX, Cynicom (#59)
I wonder what brainwashing techniques and propaganda they're using on these kids to get them to Kill Kill Kill people who have done nothing to us?
#63. To: Deasy (#60)
Silent? Hell in my family, I've been told there were gold stars in the windows.
#64. To: Cynicom (#44)
#65. To: HOUNDDAWG, Flintlock (#57)
The Beast of War
#66. To: christine (#65)
#67. To: Deasy (#62)
Israelis Palestinians now.
#68. To: Cynicom, christine (#21)
at age 60. He had learned nothing but again he was not stupid. He had 40 years to learn
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#69. To: randge, bluegrass, CadetD (#50)
(Edited)
My ex-neighbor...a proud "progressive" Democrat, ACLU member, PhD in a Carnegie fellowship is the most over-educated dummie I ever met. He's almost robotic.
#70. To: Artisan (#68)
...looking back it would be easy to accuse myself of being naive and ignorant but stupid, maybe not.
#71. To: redpanther (#70)
ping
#72. To: christine (#64)
how about if i say instead that the kid's decision is stupid.
#73. To: Artisan (#68)
was i stupid?
#74. To: Cynicom (#73)
(Edited)
My first lesson in "party" politics was when both "parties" offered the nomination to Eisenhower. How could that be???????
#75. To: HOUNDDAWG, Deasy, Christine, randge (#74)
By the time he warned the country about the military industrial complex it was too little too late.
#76. To: HOUNDDAWG (#57)
Have you watched the 1988 film "The Beast of War" with George Dzundza, Jason Patric and Stephen Bauer?
Lord Acton
#77. To: Cynicom (#21)
A few days ago an Army Sgt. was killed in the ME at age 60. He had learned nothing but again he was not stupid. He had 40 years to learn.
#78. To: Sam Houston (#77)
#79. To: Cynicom (#44)
"Kids" volunteer for the military for many reasons, but THEY DO NOT volunteer to bleed and die.
#80. To: christine (#79)
i would assert that today's GIs are not anywhere near the quality of human being that were the GIs of wars past.
#81. To: Cynicom (#80)
(Edited)
What you point out is a reflection of the degradation of society that has taken place since WW2.
#82. To: Cynicom (#80)
It leaves people such as myself from the lowest class,
Dancing Turtles and Bouncing Boobs
...that's Turtle Island.
#83. To: Cynicom, HOUNDDAWG, Christine, randge (#75)
If one takes time to read the letters from Patton to his wife, there are conclusions that can honestly be drawn. I cannot recall his written words but in essence he told his wife he would not be allowed to come home...ALIVE...
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