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Title: Emotional Goodbye For Afghanistan-Bound Marines (listen if you dare)
Source:
NPR
URL Source: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104267469
Published: May 18, 2009
Author: Catherine Welch
Post Date: 2009-05-18 19:10:22 by Deasy
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Keywords: Israel, Mideast, Obama, Security
Views: 2925
Comments: 83
Listen Now [5 min 33 sec] add to playlist Marines prepare for deployment as part of the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade, the first major deployment of U.S. Marines into southern Afghanistan. Lance Cpl. Josh Apsey, 18, waves and blows kisses to his family after boarding a bus for the first leg of his trip to Afghanistan on Saturday. All Things Considered, May 18, 2009 · The Marines known as "America's Battalion" are heading to Afghanistan. They are part of the 21,000 additional forces President Obama is deploying in the administration's new strategy for the war effort in Afghanistan. The mission of these Marines will take them to places American forces have rarely been in large numbers. Over the months of their deployment, NPR will focus on the people — the Marines and their families — who will carry the fight in Afghanistan and the burden of keeping life together at home. The Marines of the 2nd Battalion, 8th Regiment have been working hard, preparing for war in Afghanistan. But over the weekend at their home base at North Carolina's Camp Lejeune, it was all about meeting with family and friends, and saying goodbye. At first glance it looked like a large Sunday picnic. A rectangular lawn at the base was filled with hundreds of people. In one spot, a family sat in beach chairs talking; nearby, a young couple stood forehead-to-forehead holding each other tightly. Tom and Vicki Apsey, with their daughter, drove through the night — 11 hours from Tampa, Fla. — to be with their son, 18-year-old Lance Cpl. Josh Apsey. A Bible And Pictures From Home Tom Apsey said his son had talked about being a Marine since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon, but the family thought their then-10-year-old would outgrow the idea. "But he continually talked about it, and he started working toward it. It was a goal of his, and he's exactly where he wanted to be. So, as a father, I definitely couldn't be any prouder of him," he said. With about a year of Marine training under his belt, Josh Apsey said he is ready to go. "My mom, she got me a journal and inserted a few pictures in there, and she's written me a few letters; and I have pictures of my girlfriend and letters from her, as well; and I have a Bible that I keep that all in right now," he said. Josh said his Bible is his most important keepsake for this first mission overseas. In the past few days, mother and son read through the Bible together, going over passages from Proverbs and Psalms. "One of my favorites, Psalm 21: 'Where does my help come from? It comes from the Lord,' " she said. The battalion chaplain, Lt. Terry Roberts, said it is his job to remind the men of their spiritual side, which is often neglected in the heat of battle. Roberts, a Baptist preacher from the hills of Kentucky, spoke from experience. This is his fifth deployment. A Line Of Buses And The Difficult Goodbye The banter between Marines and their family members subsided as the empty buses pulled up to ferry the Marines to the airport. The Marines won't be in touch with their families again until they reach Afghanistan — and then, communication by telephone and e-mail will be difficult. "You know they have come out with a new machine. It's a one-button, text-messaging machine," Roberts quipped, pulling a pen out of his pocket to make the point that the men must learn to write letters. The Marines piled the gear onto the back of a tractor-trailer. Then, they lined up and boarded the buses as loved ones clapped and cried. Before the caravan had rounded the corner and was out of sight, the families had shuffled off to their cars. At the end of the day, a handful of Marines combed the empty lawn, picking up trash and preparing the same patch for the next crowd of families, who will gather outside the headquarters of America's Battalion to say goodbye. Emotional Goodbye For Afghanistan-Bound Marines
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#44. To: robnoel (#42)
rob... "Kids" volunteer for the military for many reasons, but THEY DO NOT volunteer to bleed and die. There are hosts of other reasons but stupidity and a death wish are not included. I did not serve with a single gung ho person, not one. We had jobs to do, we did them and hoped every day that we would survive. I hate war but I hate our government more.
What do you think, Cyni? Do you sense that our eggheads will take on both the Bear and the Dragon? That could be a mouthful. Like fighting a war on an Eastern and a Western front. What's your scenario en precis?
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. Sadly, I must agree. More senseless deaths for us, and them, who are only growing more poppies for the CIA, and poppy himself. What a waste of lives.
True but stop and think about what you have written. WW2 was ALWAYS portrayed as a just and noble cause, the brain washing worked then and now. Consider after WW2, NO war has been portrayed as just and necessary, not a one, just WW2. Why is that?????
Guaranteed. If you had lived thru the 1930s, to see the nations aligning themselves as if in slow motion, our present days look like a rerun.
Yes I hear you but you can't disagree with what the military does to change a kid to man in 6 weeks
Oh, please. I know the story. I grew up in a liberal college town. By the time I got done with high school, the one thing on my mind was getting the hell out of there. I hung out with working class kids. Not because I had to, but because I wanted to. The atmosphere that these "progressives" created was mind-numbing.
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. All I'm saying is that in the minds of my relatives, the myth was real. It wasn't that they had to be persuaded later, they believed. And they continued to believe.
rob... I meant to agree with you on that. They teach all how to kill, which is easily done, but then it becomes difficult when you realize someone is trying to kill you. Then it becomes survival, very personal. My brother is buried in Holland, one among a thousand unknowns in one cemetery. Think of that, one thousand unknowns in one place. We never thought of WW2 as being a just war. All of that patriotic talk was a myth then and now.
You are quite correct, it was drummed into peoples heads day and night, endlessly. Indeed the myth was real in peoples minds. However the government knew better. People WANT to believe their government, people want to be loyal and patriotic, that is in all of us, and it makes us susceptible to mind bending.
And now we seem to have sealed our belief in the righteousness of that war with the blood we shed, both the enemy's and our own. I don't know how to break the cycle.
Have you read this Lt. Erin Watada and a Standing Army by Jacob G. Hornberger The case of Lt. Erin Watada provides a good example of why our American ancestors opposed a standing army. You’ll recall that Watada is the U.S. military officer who refused orders to deploy to Iraq on the ground that to do so would constitute the war crime of waging a war of aggression. The U.S. Army prosecuted him for refusing to obey such orders but then screwed up by agreeing to the granting of a mistrial after Watada’s trial had already begun. Since another trial would have violated the constitutional provision on double jeopardy, U.S. military officials have recently decided to drop the charges. Still pending are charges relating to Watada’s criticism of President Bush.
Very good... And it has come to bother your conscience, is that correct????? I was most fortunate back in the 1930s to have a Father that was an American and a conservative and railed every day about Roosevelt. I recall the fireside chats when FDR like Sam denied, denied and denounced there would never be another military draft. My father would call him a lying SOB. However the majority thought of FDR as the Savior and worshiped him in return. When FDR dragged off their children and grand children for war, they fell silent.
Have you watched the 1988 film "The Beast of War" with George Dzundza, Jason Patric and Stephen Bauer? It's a great film about a Soviet tank crew on "hearts and minds patrol" in Afghanistan, and I highly recommend it if you enjoy uplifting morality plays about courageous guerilla fighters. Their guts, skill and experience as tribal warriors are more than ample compensation for their lack of technology, and in no time a seasoned Soviet tank crew is dreading contact with the enemy.... Dzundza is the tank commander and he's a truly evil bastard who greased his tank tracks with the body of a local villager and, well, he shouldn't have done that! His fate in the film is something I wouldn't wish on many. And, I hate to think of 19 yr old Americans (and Brits) risking similar horrors just to keep the opium poppies in full bloom in the land where Alexander The Great became Alexander the Mediocre.
Yes. And I disliked him for what he did, and on the other side I have the utmost respect for the stand he took.
I wonder what brainwashing techniques and propaganda they're using on these kids to get them to Kill Kill Kill people who have done nothing to us??
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
Yes. Dresden, Nagasaki, Berlin... millions of innocent dead Germans and Japanese.
Funny....the film was released in the USA as "The Beast", not "The Beast of war". "America without her freedoms, is like a body without a soul" - Adam Kokesh
The mantra: we've done nothing to deserve bin Laden's hatred. 9/11 was a hate crime against freedom. We're all Israelis now. America is going to save the world again.
Mine too. However the FDR lovers changed tunes when they realized he had lied to them for many years.
how about if i say instead that the kid's decision is stupid. he thinks he's fighting for our freedom and against terrorists. he'll learn soon enough.
The smooth criminal transition from Bush/Cheney to Obama
The Beast darn, Netflix doesn't have it.
The smooth criminal transition from Bush/Cheney to Obama
I'm watching it now on ewe toob.
We're all There. Fixed it.
well that is kind of you to refrain from calling them stupid. I voted for bush senior, twice, and for bush junior in 2000. so, a lot of the new world order stuff was known by plenty of people long before that. hell i supposedly knew something about it before 2000, hearing about the ''international bankers' and how kissinger was a 'dog' from the time i was a kid. yet i still voted for 2 bushes? was i stupid? looking back it would be easy to accuse myself of being naive and ignorant but stupid, maybe not. so, there is always hope. those decieved become the greatest adversaries of tyranny once they realize who the enemy is. heck, i think i am still learning every day who the enemy is, and how they operate. it is an ongoing process.
Glory to God in the highest, and Peace to His people on Earth. Oh, please. I know the story. I grew up in a liberal college town. By the time I got done with high school, the one thing on my mind was getting the hell out of there. I finally figured it out, thanks to Dr. Iris Metts. (She has more diplomas than Sidney Poitier in GUESS WHO'S COMING TO DINNER, but, she "buhleez dat black folks need affirmative action" despite the fact that there were bidding wars to hire her as superintendent of schools in DE, MD other states and for a federal post.) These good people may be heavily credentialed and not have the present ability to expel urine from knee high footwear, but it's because their indoctrination is not about critical thinking or the scientific method-it's about unflagging adherence to dogma. And, the reason why they abuse heretics or blasphemers is because that was how their teachers dealt with the problem when they were "up th' college!" But, what choice was there? One cannot rationally explain and teach the irrational and inexplicable, i.e., IQ tests are a fair measure of aptitude and intelligence except for American born and raised blacks who apparently speak a different language and who have only a marginal familiarity with American icons, traditions, culture, science, physics or history. For instance, a question that asks "If you pass a man on the street in the morning are you more likely to see him carrying a; A) Newspaper, or B) Cane? In the ghetto the correct answer is B. Canes are carried as weapons. The Chitlin Test But G_D help you if you suggest that blacks are more violence prone or that blacks don't read. But, anyone who can read may easily verify that the black ghettos in Wilmington and Dover are responsible for the obscenely high numbers of gun homicides in this state. But, any who suggest that there's a correlation between black assailants and victims and a cultural predisposition for violence are "h8terz". Not because it's false or even unproven but because it will hurt and anger some people, who may then kill the offending person if the opportunity arises. Dat honkey is tryin'to hold us down by sayin dat we blacks is violent. And now I got to kill him for dat!"
Hey, old friend, don't beat yourself up about it. They don't advertise like TRUCKMASTERS SCHOOL OF TRUCKING and there aren't any universities that specialize by awarding DOCTORATES IN GLOBAL CONSPIRACIES. In fact, the PWs (Power Whisperers) monopolize and control every form of mass communication and pop culture, and that influence is used to condition us as kids to eschew such suspicious thinking about them or their agenda(s). The "good guys" are clean cut and clean living. Remember the cops on ADAM 12, and The JEE MEN on THE EEF BEE EYE? and the wild eyed kooks look like Theodore "If you think I Need A Haircut I'LL BLOW THIS PLACE UP!" Kaczynski) And don't ever overlook the fact that a lifetime of trial and error of combining professional TV, film, academic and social indoctrination methodologies (not to mention involuntary or ill informed drug experiments on some poor souls and then announcing them and daring us to try and stop them in the future as ancillary experiments on the rest of us) are quite possibly taught in secret locations and respected like an alchemist's recipe for turning lead into gold, because they're the most powerful human resource tools in the universe. To quote The Man, "When I think back on all the (DAWGIE DEW) I learned in high school, It's a wunder I can think a tall!"
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
I would buy that. I made a lot of stupid mistakes as a kid. I realized with your original post you meant nothing harmful for the kid, however, most of us except Sam Houston, were once kids and made horrible mistakes.
A lot of us were stupid. My first lesson in "party" politics was when both "parties" offered the nomination to Eisenhower. How could that be??????? My personal alarm bells went off but I was not astute or mature enough to understand what it all meant. I voted Ike because he stopped the war and I got to go home, alive. That meant a lot.
Ike was the Supreme Allied Commander of the allied forces that won the war for The Soviets. And, since a certain tiny but influential ethnic minority wanted commieism to prevail over the other isms, Ike was our greatest living war hero. (Discounting Sgt. Alvin C. York of course. He didn't have the power to starve thousands of Germans after the cessation of formal hostilities, so, his hero status was...ho hum... to the folks who molded public opinion then. And, Nazi sympathizer George S. Patton? well, the less said about him after his welcome, timely and likely arranged demise the better. I can certainly understand why the DEMs wanted IKE, too. After all, the people behind the curtain of both parties (then and now) were the same elated victims who were relying on IKE's anti German-pro reparations zeal. ________________________ From wiki: "He made the decision to reclassify German prisoners of war (POWs) in U.S. custody as Disarmed Enemy Forces (DEFs), thus depriving them of the protection of the Geneva convention. As DEFs, their food rations could be lowered and they could be compelled to serve as unfree labor (see Rheinwiesenlager). Eisenhower was an early supporter of the Morgenthau Plan to permanently remove Germany's industrial capacity to wage future wars. In November 1945 he approved the distribution of 1000 free copies of Morgenthau's book Germany is Our Problem, which promoted and described the plan in detail, to American military officials in occupied Germany. Historian Stephen Ambrose draws the conclusion that, despite Eisenhower's later claims the act was not an endorsement of the Morgenthau plan, Eisenhower both approved of the plan and had previously given Morgenthau at least some of his ideas about how Germany should be treated.[36] He also incorporated officials from Morgenthau's Treasury into the army of occupation. These were commonly called "Morgenthau boys" for their zeal in interpreting the occupation directive JCS 1067, which had been heavily influenced by Morgenthau and his plan, as strictly as possible.[37] And this: "Throughout his presidency, Eisenhower preached a doctrine of dynamic conservatism.[citation needed](Too funny! This was the Republicans giving our Jewish bruthas and sistas what they wanted while selling it as some kind of "dynamic conservatism." The mood of the country was such that the PWs could draft and slip the IRS Code of 1954 to us shortly after._HD) so He continued all the major New Deal programs still in operation, especially Social Security. He expanded its programs and rolled them into a new cabinet-level agency, the Department of Health, Education and Welfare, while extending benefits to an additional ten million workers. His cabinet, consisting of several corporate executives and one labor leader, was dubbed by one journalist, "Eight millionaires and a plumber."[42] Eisenhower won his second term in 1956 with 457 of 531 votes in the Electoral College, and 57.6% of the popular vote." By the time he warned the country about the military industrial complex it was too little too late. And, he must have known that he was largely responsible with his "strong, anti commie NATO" commitment. And then there was this: "Civil rights "Eisenhower supported the 1954 Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka U.S. Supreme Court decision, in which segregated ("separate but equal") schools were ruled to be unconstitutional. The very next day he told District of Columbia officials to make Washington a model for the rest of the country in integrating black and white public school children.[48][49] He proposed to Congress the Civil Rights Acts of 1957 and 1960 and signed those acts into law. Although both Acts were weaker than subsequent civil rights legislation, they constituted the first significant civil rights acts since the 1870s. The "Little Rock Nine" incident of 1957 involved the refusal by Arkansas to honor a Federal court order to integrate the schools. Under Executive Order 10730, Eisenhower placed the Arkansas National Guard under Federal control and sent Army troops to escort nine black students into an all-white public school. The integration did not occur without violence. Eisenhower and Arkansas governor Orval Faubus engaged in tense arguments." Do you see why the DEMS couldn't have fielded a more responsive hand puppet? And, what could an anti IKE platform possibly have been? "Sure, IKE won the war but do we really want a bald man as our president?"
That was a shocker to everyone that was paying attention. It was too late then to discredit Ike and what he had to say. Your outline of Ikes past is correct and it was managed by the democrat Jew Bernard Baruch. Ike was a user. After West Point he attached himself to General Fox Connor as a paper shuffler and yes man. Connor was the one that got Ike into all the proper military schools between wars. After Connor, Baruch took over and kept Ike in important planning and paper jobs until war broke out. When Ike became Commander in Europe he had climbed over 153 senior officers on his way to the top, INCLUDING PATTON. In Europe he was smart enough to know that in Patton he had a general that would fight. Upon cessation of combat all general officers were due to be reduced to their permanent ranks, meaning Patton would then become Ikes superior. If one takes time to read the letters from Patton to his wife, there are conclusions that can honestly be drawn. I cannot recall his written words but in essence he told his wife he would not be allowed to come home...ALIVE... Patton also voiced his opinions concerning the Jews of Europe and at home. Only a fool would believe his letters not read by others.
No, I haven't seen it but thanks for the tip. Sounds like a good movie.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. We are talking semantics. Okay, maybe he and the others are not "stupid" then, but they are "deliberately and perpetually ignorant" of everything going on around them.
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
If one of these kids can enunciate one sound reason for becoming part of this invading force, I'll stand in the crowd and wave the flag.
you are forgetting the contingent that volunteer to kill though. i'm thinking the mercenaries, gang members, the thugs who threw the puppy off the cliff and the maniacs who took part in the abu graib and other prison torture. i would assert that today's GIs are not anywhere near the quality of human being that were the GIs of wars past.
The smooth criminal transition from Bush/Cheney to Obama
What you point out is a reflection of the degradation of society that has taken place since WW2. All armies thruout history have never been made up of saints, not one. Any army is made up of a cross section of what is available from society. Armed military units in the past and present, are constituted of murderers, thieves, adulterers, God fearing men, family men, law abiding men...what society produces. It is a fact, reflected by people here, that it is rare for a member of the elite upper class to serve, the majority of the middle class will do anything to avoid military duty. So who does that leave? It leaves people such as myself from the lowest class, that are labeled stupid for doing something that will be done by the lowest class anyway, either voluntarily or by draft when necessary. Some time ago, the government printed a review of those that died in WW2, the deaths and injuries by social ranking, the odds of each class dying. The odds of an elite military person being killed were nearly zero, at the other extreme opposite end, those on the bottom of the social ladder, their odds of dying were very great.
yes. this is true. another consideration is the number of foreign (noncitizens) in the ranks. do you happen to know the percentage? i heard that the largest recruiting stations now are in other countries. It leaves people such as myself from the lowest class, that are labeled stupid for doing something that will be done by the lowest class anyway i want to reiterate that i see a vast difference between you and those who volunteered then to those who volunteer now. circumstances were very different then and i would never label you stupid. today's volunteers have access to much more information and history. i feel the same frustration and irritation with them as i do those who vote and support this corrupt, imperialistic government.
The smooth criminal transition from Bush/Cheney to Obama
You hang with Turtle and some of his Brains will rub off on you. I have plenty to spare.
Reading on his letters home at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Patton one notes the phrase "increasingly erratic." The Mandarins fear those who are powerful enough to grant them their terrible wishes. Patton understood that we were crushing the most effective enemies of communism.
#45. To: Cynicom (#41)
(Edited)
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#46. To: Deasy. all (#1)
It's too bad that someone isn't leading them to DC where they could do more good.
#47. To: Deasy (#43)
The latter part is true, but some families, and I grew up in one, believed. And they bled for it.
#48. To: randge (#45)
Do you sense that our egghead will take on both the Bear and the Dragon?
#49. To: Cynicom (#44)
#50. To: CadetD (#38)
My ex-neighbor...a proud "progressive" Democrat, ACLU member, PhD in a Carnegie fellowship is the most over-educated dummie I ever met. He's almost robotic.
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#51. To: Cynicom (#47)
WW2 was ALWAYS portrayed as a just and noble cause, the brain washing worked then and now.
Consider after WW2, NO war has been portrayed as just and necessary, not a one, just WW2. Why is that?????
A profound question. Let me know if you want an extended reply, perhaps tomorrow or later when I've thought about it. I know that WWII helped to destroy most remaining faith that ethnic nationalism could be a bulwark against collectivism. This was a small miracle, because ethnic (Anglo-Gaul-American) nationalism was used to justify our entry into the war.
#52. To: robnoel (#49)
Yes I hear you but you can't disagree with what the military does to change a kid to man in 6 weeks
#53. To: Deasy (#51)
All I'm saying is that in the minds of my relatives, the myth was real
#54. To: Cynicom (#53)
You are quite correct, it was drummed into peoples heads day and night, endlessly.
People WANT to believe their government, people want to be loyal and patriotic, that is in all of us, and it makes us susceptible to mind bending.
After all, this is the most free country on the earth. How can its government ever be that wrong? I've heard that so many times.
#55. To: Cynicom (#53)
#56. To: Deasy (#54)
After all, this is the most free country on the earth. How can its government ever be that wrong? I've heard that so many times.
#57. To: James Deffenbach, Deasy, christine (#4)
(Edited)
Hopefully, he will wise up and get out before he gets killed. Afghanistan is a burial ground for would-be occupiers. If anyone needs to know about that all they need to do is ask the Soviets. They didn't have much luck there, at least not good luck.
#58. To: robnoel (#55)
Have you read this
#59. To: Deasy (#0)
#60. To: Cynicom (#56)
And it has come to bother your conscience, is that correct?
However the majority thought of FDR as the Savior and worshiped him in return. When FDR dragged off their children and grand children for war, they fell silent.
Silent? Hell in my family, I've been told there were gold stars in the windows.
#61. To: HOUNDDAWG (#57)
Have you watched the 1988 film "The Beast of War"
#62. To: IndieTX, Cynicom (#59)
I wonder what brainwashing techniques and propaganda they're using on these kids to get them to Kill Kill Kill people who have done nothing to us?
#63. To: Deasy (#60)
Silent? Hell in my family, I've been told there were gold stars in the windows.
#64. To: Cynicom (#44)
#65. To: HOUNDDAWG, Flintlock (#57)
The Beast of War
#66. To: christine (#65)
#67. To: Deasy (#62)
Israelis Palestinians now.
#68. To: Cynicom, christine (#21)
at age 60. He had learned nothing but again he was not stupid. He had 40 years to learn
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#69. To: randge, bluegrass, CadetD (#50)
(Edited)
My ex-neighbor...a proud "progressive" Democrat, ACLU member, PhD in a Carnegie fellowship is the most over-educated dummie I ever met. He's almost robotic.
#70. To: Artisan (#68)
...looking back it would be easy to accuse myself of being naive and ignorant but stupid, maybe not.
#71. To: redpanther (#70)
ping
#72. To: christine (#64)
how about if i say instead that the kid's decision is stupid.
#73. To: Artisan (#68)
was i stupid?
#74. To: Cynicom (#73)
(Edited)
My first lesson in "party" politics was when both "parties" offered the nomination to Eisenhower. How could that be???????
#75. To: HOUNDDAWG, Deasy, Christine, randge (#74)
By the time he warned the country about the military industrial complex it was too little too late.
#76. To: HOUNDDAWG (#57)
Have you watched the 1988 film "The Beast of War" with George Dzundza, Jason Patric and Stephen Bauer?
Lord Acton
#77. To: Cynicom (#21)
A few days ago an Army Sgt. was killed in the ME at age 60. He had learned nothing but again he was not stupid. He had 40 years to learn.
#78. To: Sam Houston (#77)
#79. To: Cynicom (#44)
"Kids" volunteer for the military for many reasons, but THEY DO NOT volunteer to bleed and die.
#80. To: christine (#79)
i would assert that today's GIs are not anywhere near the quality of human being that were the GIs of wars past.
#81. To: Cynicom (#80)
(Edited)
What you point out is a reflection of the degradation of society that has taken place since WW2.
#82. To: Cynicom (#80)
It leaves people such as myself from the lowest class,
Dancing Turtles and Bouncing Boobs
...that's Turtle Island.
#83. To: Cynicom, HOUNDDAWG, Christine, randge (#75)
If one takes time to read the letters from Patton to his wife, there are conclusions that can honestly be drawn. I cannot recall his written words but in essence he told his wife he would not be allowed to come home...ALIVE...
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