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Editorial
See other Editorial Articles

Title: Cal Thomas: Unions, overregulation drove American Dream into a ditch
Source: SacBee
URL Source: http://www.sacbee.com/opinion/story/1920481.html
Published: Jun 5, 2009
Author: Cal Thomas
Post Date: 2009-06-05 16:06:01 by farmfriend
Keywords: None
Views: 1597
Comments: 137

Cal Thomas: Unions, overregulation drove American Dream into a ditch

By Cal Thomas
Published: Friday, Jun. 5, 2009 - 12:00 am | Page 19A

See the USA in your Chevrolet

America is asking you to call.

Drive your Chevrolet through the USA

America's the greatest land of all.

Fifty years ago, those words set to music each week on NBC's "The Dinah Shore Show" reflected an America and an automobile industry that is no more. That time and that industry were laid to rest this week when General Motors filed for bankruptcy and the government effectively nationalized GM and Chrysler after wasting billions of our tax dollars on a failed bailout.

Despite disclaimers from President Barack Obama that the government doesn't want to be in the car business, it is hard to see what it has bought with our tax dollars other than two of what used to be known as "the big three."

Government by default or determination will choose the types of cars the companies it owns will make. Government will buy a lot of them because not enough customers will unless they are made offers they can't refuse, not by a car salesman in a loud sport coat, but by a government bureaucrat in a suit.

It's difficult to let go of an American dream. When I was growing up, every kid wanted to drive his own car. Our frugal parents (who had just one car) would let us drive it, but with restrictions, including a set time to bring the car back in the same pristine condition in which we found it.

A car was a rite of passage. It conveyed independence and status.

Each September we salivated at the prospect of new models. There was always a big buildup and we'd go to the Chevy (or Ford) dealer early on the morning they were for sale. Sometimes they would be covered with sheets and a dramatic unveiling would take place. TV commercials would show parts of new models in a kind of striptease before their debut.

Some believe the models between 1955 and 1959, especially the 1957 Chevy Bel Air and the 1958 Impala, are unsurpassed, though Ford devotees have their Mustangs and T-Birds. Pontiac's GTO and some Dodge and Plymouth models were also great.

Chrysler had the Imperial, which resembled a boat with running lights, and the New Yorker for "old rich people." And then there was the one beyond our reach, but not beyond our dreams: the Cadillac. The song "Pink Cadillac" became a hit, in part because we saw Elvis in one.

America's relationship with its cars has rightly been called a love affair. Though some have tried to replicate the smell of a new car in spray cans, there is nothing quite like the feeling of sinking into new faux leather and later, if you could afford it, the real thing.

Much if not all of those thrills will be gone, thanks to greed by the unions, government overregulation and bad management. The customers, who once were always right, have been cheated.

All one has to do is look at government-made cars to see they are about as attractive as government art, government architecture, or many other things government does poorly. The Skoda (when the Czechoslovakia communist party made them – they're nice now thanks to free-market capitalism) had its own jokes: "How much is a Skoda worth with a full tank of gas?" Answer: "Twice as much."

East Germany's Trabant, a major polluter, was little more than a two-cycle engine encased in the thinnest veneer, and the old Soviet Union cars were about as appealing as a Siberian winter. These are the kinds of cars governments have produced.

Obama says all of those laid-off autoworkers will have to "sacrifice" for the sake of their children and grandchildren. So much for their American Dream. If a Republican president had said that, he would have been denounced as insensitive and uncaring.

On a highway, or a road along the levee

Performance is sweeter

Nothing can beat her

Life is completer in a Chevy.

Not anymore.

Bye-bye Miss American Pie;

drove my Chevy to the levee but the levee was dry.

This is the day GM died.

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#91. To: Original_Intent (#89)

that there may some evils involved in Unionism but that the alternative to no unions is slave labor. Unions only form and succeed when management has been abusive over a long period of time and Unions are the reaction to the abusive behavior not the abusive behavior a result of the unions.

A very few cultures have delt with this ancient issue sucessfully, IMVHO.

One of the basic drivers of most humans is fear of lack of food - you can see it in the greed of an infant suckling a breast. It is understandable, fear of starving tomorrow is an honest concern.

However time and time we can see societies with plenty sack most of the goods for the powerful and leave the rest in a marginal situation, yet it is the majority of the population, nearly by definition,, that is able to produce the food and wealth that is captured by the wealthy.

"Satan / Cheney in "08" Just Foreign Policy Iraqi Death Estimator

tom007  posted on  2009-06-07   0:42:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: Cynicom (#90)

One brave denizen here on the forum used another name to tell me 25 cents was all I was worth

Ill pay fifty cents in a silver Ben.

And you are welcome to come over to enjoy the new fire pit we built in the backyard.

Beer's on me as I own a Liquor store.

"Satan / Cheney in "08" Just Foreign Policy Iraqi Death Estimator

tom007  posted on  2009-06-07   0:46:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: Cynicom (#90)

You are most welcome.

"I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-06-07   1:18:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: Deasy (#60)

You misunderstand Liberty.

Liberty is the freedom to do as you wish so long as you are not interfering with someone else's freedom or property.

It isn't anarchy, but rather an arrangement where if you want to paint your house purple, you're welcome to do it, but if you pollute your neighbor's land, you are held liable for it.

Limited Government is supposedly what we have now. How is that working out?

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-07   13:36:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: Original_Intent (#81)

All of the unionism of the late 1800's and on into the 1900's was for self protection.

Yes, and they won. But most unions nowadays are white-collar Government workers. Tell me what protections a Network Engineer requires, please, and I will tell you how those Unions these days screw over their members.

But like most "causes" - once the battle is won, they don't comprehend "maintenance mode" and push things beyond where they need to go and actually make things WORSE.

The Civil Rights movement is a perfect example of this. From equal rights to special rights.

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-07   13:41:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: mirage (#94)

I think you fail to realize just how deep our rabbit hole of a political charade really goes. Neither camp has brought us out of the desert, and that's for a good reason. As long as the Barry Goldwaters and the John F. Kennedys can get standing ovations for their vacant but sweet-sounding ideologies, we'll never be really free.

Deasy  posted on  2009-06-07   13:42:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: mirage, Original Intent (#95)

Yes, and they won. But most unions nowadays are white-collar Government workers.

Yes they won to some extent, but I hope you noticed the endless number of workers that were shot to death for daring to protest conditions.

I read the list OI posted and did not see one owner or management dying.

There is something significant there.

Cynicom  posted on  2009-06-07   13:46:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: Cynicom (#97)

Yes they won to some extent, but I hope you noticed the endless number of workers that were shot to death for daring to protest conditions.

Nowhere is that being diminished or discounted or even ignored.

The question is this - that was 100 years ago. What is the use of Unions today?

Do we have management shooting workers today? If the answer is no, then the question still remains -- what are unions "protecting" their people from TODAY?

The best that I can find is that Unions protect workers from prosecution for the workers' OWN malfeasance, the workers' OWN criminal activity, and the workers' OWN incompetence.

If you want to live a century in the past, feel free, but that has little to no bearing on what goes on TODAY.

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-07   14:26:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: Deasy (#96)

Neither camp has brought us out of the desert, and that's for a good reason.

IMO the professional politician is the main reason.

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-07   14:27:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: mirage (#98)

What is the use of Unions today?

What private-sector unions? We've already agreed that they're mostly non-existent in corporate America today. They've been busted, driven out, dismantled. Now where they had remained (auto industry) those industries themselves have been hollowed out.

With free trade, free flow of international capital, and open immigration unions are definitely impotent.

That situation has arisen because of Americans answering the phony call for free enterprise. An America-first form of free enterprise might have worked, but the capitalists said that wasn't good enough. They wanted the world. Now they have it, and we have nothing.

Deasy  posted on  2009-06-07   14:31:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: mirage (#99)

IMO the professional politician is the main reason.

They get their funds from corporate and foreign interests. Ordinary citizens can't afford those things. Now I recognize that unions had the money to fund lobbyists, but where are they today? GM and Chrysler are out of business, for all intents and purposes. I don't blame unions for that. I blame bad management, NAFTA, and the bloody flow of capital outside of our country over the past 40 years.

Deasy  posted on  2009-06-07   14:37:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: Deasy (#100)

With free trade, free flow of international capital, and open immigration unions are definitely impotent.

Except in certain "showcase" industries like the Auto Industry where the Federal Government through the NLRB keeps them alive.

You're correct in your analysis that free trade, free flow of capital, NAFTA, and open immigration has demolished companies and thus unions. That is why GOVERNMENT WORKERS are now the majority of union members.

Thus my question I haven't gotten a good answer for on this thread. "What good are the Unions for white collar Government workers?" I get a bunch of crap in response saying "Oh you don't know history" - really? Still the same, the question remains that nobody wants to deal with. Avoidance of the question tells me that posters on this thread are living in the past and don't comprehend that times have changed, nor do they want to.

Every company that can has gone away from defined benefit plans. The automakers were stuck with it due to Federal interference. Now with bankruptcies, those are going to go away as well.

If the Unions really were protecting their workers, they would have taken the pensions onto themselves as opposed to saddling the companies with them. A company can take losses and wind up downsizing and in trouble. If the Unions had half a brain, they would have managed the pension funds themselves.

Of course, that assumes the Unions are honest. Historically, they haven't been. Ask Jimmy Hoffa about that.

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-07   14:45:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: mirage (#98)

If you want to live a century in the past, feel free, but that has little to no bearing on what goes on TODAY.

Do you really believe that?

Cynicom  posted on  2009-06-07   14:51:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: mirage (#102)

Of course, that assumes the Unions are honest. Historically, they haven't been. Ask Jimmy Hoffa about that.

Let's take that a step further. What has been honest about 20th/21st century American politics and social policy? Given all the lies, all the distortions, why wouldn't people join unions as the best way to attempt to obtain their piece of the pie? Nothing has worked out as planned, not just unions. Singling them out is a favorite Republican pastime, and of course the Republican party has historically earned millions in corporate donations on that basis.

Every company that can has gone away from defined benefit plans. The automakers were stuck with it due to Federal interference. Now with bankruptcies, those are going to go away as well.
You're not telling us anything new. We know that America's industrial might has been hollowed out. We know that its most successful businesses have been laid low. We know that hard work isn't enough.
Thus my question I haven't gotten a good answer for on this thread. "What good are the Unions for white collar Government workers?"
They too will come to find that there is no such thing as commitment. They too will learn that when a country goes broke, even unions can't help them. But they hoped, and they joined. If they want to be union, let them. If you want to know why they're union, ask them, not us. I can't see anything in the constitution that bars them from joining unions.
You're correct in your analysis that free trade, free flow of capital, NAFTA, and open immigration has demolished companies and thus unions. That is why GOVERNMENT WORKERS are now the majority of union members.
That makes sense to me. Everything else can be off-shored, underbid, outsourced, Blackwatered, and so forth. You're not persuading anyone that unions are obsolete in that regard.

I'd like to remind you that it has long been a Republican, "conservative" plank to open up free trade, permit migrant workers onto our agribusiness farms, and make the free international flow of capital possible. That along with union busting has been very good for the Republican party until recently.

Nobody cares anymore. Jobs for anyone are too scarce. GOP conservatives and anti-union conservatives (who aren't really patriotic and aren't really pro-worker) have had their way. America's industries are toast. Capital is more mobile than ever before. It seems to fly right out of the pockets of the American people now, faster than ever. And now the Democrats are helping, since they're all working for the same people anyway.

Deasy  posted on  2009-06-07   15:07:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: Cynicom (#103)

Do you really believe that?

Let me give you an example that illustrates my point.

I was running an IT shop with a unionized IT force (education) and one person did an outstanding job on a project.

First, I tried to promote that person - the Union said NO
Then I tried to give them a bonus. The Union said NO

Tell me how the Union is protecting this person. I would really like to know.

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-07   16:01:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: Deasy (#104)

Everything else can be off-shored, underbid, outsourced, Blackwatered, and so forth. You're not persuading anyone that unions are obsolete in that regard.

Tell us how Unions can prevent this and you will make a point for them.

I'll tell you the truth in this matter - they can't prevent it.

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-07   16:03:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: mirage (#106)

None of us can. Where did you have the impression that I was pro-union? I'm an America firster. All I'm saying is that unionizing is inevitable given the history of international capitalism.

Deasy  posted on  2009-06-07   16:05:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: Deasy (#107)

Where did you have the impression that I was pro-union?
All I'm saying is that unionizing is inevitable given the history of international capitalism.

Unionizing is inevitable only under certain conditions.

You will note that Honda and Toyota don't have Union shops. Why is that?

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-07   16:23:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: mirage (#108)

Toyota union leader shot dead in Venezuela
Tue May 5, 2009 6:30pm EDT
www.reuters.com/article/r...ce5/idUSTRE5446TA20090505

It's not true.

Deasy  posted on  2009-06-07   16:28:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: Deasy (#109)

It's not true.

That's Venezuela which is in complete chaos currently.

Are you saying the United States can actually be compared to Venezuela? Granted, it is possible to claim we have Barack Chavez in office, but so far, we don't have a Dictatorship.

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-07   16:45:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: mirage (#110)

You said Toyota wasn't unionized, but it is. You're definitely missing my point, so I won't belabor it any longer. The same factions that were anti-union (think Reagan/Goldwater) were the ones who worked opposite to the left to put us where we are today.

It's time to move on, with what little we have remaining of a country.

Deasy  posted on  2009-06-07   16:49:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: Deasy (#111)

Toyota is not unionized in the United States. Sorry, since the thread here is about California and Unions, I made a bad assumption we were limiting discussion to the USA.

I didn't know that third-world countries and California government unions were equivalent, but perhaps I should re-evaluate that assessment. You have made a compelling argument that the Union thugs in California (some of whom I know well) are the equivalent of third-world Dictators.

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-07   16:53:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: mirage (#112)

What are you going to do about it? Nothing you've talked about up until now hasn't been said a million times. Reagan and Bush failed to deliver your fabled conservative American renewal. The record is skipping and repeating. We're going nowhere with the old left/right schism. Rave on, brother.

Deasy  posted on  2009-06-07   16:58:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: Deasy (#113) (Edited)

What are you going to do about it?

I'm doing the one thing that nobody else wants to do.

I am helping the system fall apart and fail.

Out of the ashes may come something workable.

What are YOU doing?

Also, kindly note that you're stuck on the left/right thing. Not once have I even referenced it. Why is that?

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-07   21:40:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: mirage (#114)

What are YOU doing?

All I can do is look for different perspectives to offer. I figure we need a new outlook if we want to improve things that have been happening for a long time, for the same reasons.

Deasy  posted on  2009-06-08   19:36:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: Deasy (#115)

I figure we need a new outlook if we want to improve things that have been happening for a long time, for the same reasons.

I concur, which is why I go neither left nor right, but settled on increasing Liberty.

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-08   22:17:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: Deasy, mirage (#115)

We need to .remember what group or interest is now in charge of this country and have always been in control.

It has never been...UNIONS...nor their members.

Union members have always paid the price of protest, in their own blood and death, government has always been the enforcer for capitalism.

Cynicom  posted on  2009-06-08   22:27:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: Cynicom (#117)

Union members have always paid the price of protest, in their own blood and death, government has always been the enforcer for capitalism.

Yes, and that's why I had one arrested and thrown in jail one day.

Want the details of the thug shakedown artists?

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-08   23:23:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: mirage (#118)

Want the details of the thug shakedown artists?

Not really.

I deplore unions as much or more than you, having been forced into one.

However, I do realize without them we would never have had a large middle class.

That being said, it has always been the big business and the government that have done the shooting and killing, compare that with union shakedowns and there is still a huge disparity.

It took a hundred years for society to demand that child labor be done away with, in my mind we are better for it. It took over a hundred years for the same government that shot and killed unionists to finally get around to enforcing safety regulations. Everyone said the sky would fall, but it did'nt.

So what did industry do? Moved to third world countries, little pay, no safety regulations and on and on. Capitalism does not have a clean background.

Cynicom  posted on  2009-06-08   23:34:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: Cynicom (#119)

That being said, it has always been the big business and the government that have done the shooting and killing, compare that with union shakedowns and there is still a huge disparity.

The union I had to have put away was the stageworkers' union.

Some friends and I were playing coffee shops and they decided they would give us a choice. Either we pay them off or they bust up all of our gear.

My drummer was a cop. You can figure out how that all ended for the union thugs.

The problem is ANYONE who does a shakedown, not just Government. It isn't right for the Government to do a shakedown and it still isn't right for a bunch of union thugs to do a shakedown. Wrong is wrong and the ends do NOT justify the means.

I still have family in the Ed Biz. NONE of them think the unions are worth a damn and for good reason.

At the public universities here, you aren't allowed to bonus the IT people who are unionized, nor are you allowed to promote them. The unions control all of that.

So again, I ask "What good are they these days, particularly in white collar occupations like Government employees who make up 90% of unionized workers?"

I am mindful there was a point in time when they were needed and were useful here in the USA, but that day, with the exception of a few hazardous occupations, are long long gone.

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-09   0:07:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: Cynicom, mirage (#119)

I deplore unions as much or more than you, having been forced into one.

However, I do realize without them we would never have had a large middle class.

The conditions under which workers labored before unions were grim.

My problem with organized labor is the fact that the most modern FORD PLANT in the world was built in Brazil because it was politically untenable to even pitch such modern automation in the US.

Of course the arrogant manufacturers didn't seem to be concerned that modern production methods could not only lower the end per-unit costs to the struggling public whose shrinking paychecks (or buying power even if their wages seem to be higher) but when they did build they went to a country where the govt will hose any pro-union "troublemakers", and no re-training of UAW members will be necessary.

FORD proved that they can modernize but they also signaled some ugly sentiments, specifically, Pork The Customer Who wants to buy American and PORK The American Worker!

Although millions are in sympathy with American labor, many simply cannot afford to pass up WALMART's prices and guerilla marketing for instance. And when the Japanese offered great cars for thousands less few Americans were well off enough to pay extra.

I've often criticized organized labor because they fought for higher wages instead of using their influence to protect the value of the dollar for all.

Their attitude seemed to be "We got ours so you get yours!" (like politicians who could raise their own salaries and also had no quarrel with the inflationary Monopoly Munny from the FED)

Those of us who got no sympathy from the UAW (or politicians) or the FED did what we could to stretch our shrinking paychecks, and that involved saying, "screw the unions" and buying Japanese, and either availing ourselves of tax loopholes and taking massive deductions or, dropping out of the wormy system altogether.

In fact if a politician ever again tries to shame Americans for not "paying their fair share" we should be quick to remind them that if adjusted for inflation our wages would result in very little tax "owed". And, we couldn't vote (or extort with the threat of violence) ourselves raises not only to maintain living standards, but to offset higher taxes to the private FED banksters with the license to steal.

No, I'm sorry to say that Cal Thomas is simply pointing to a symptom and he'd never have the courage to mention the real problem in polite conservative Christian company.

I'm sure that if I pressed the issue he'd repeat the well rehearsed mantra that criticizing central banksters is too close to "anti-Schzyemitizm" for comfort.

____________________

Judeo-Christian reasoning:

Many Banksters (religious and secular) worship Israel. All of those banksters worship fractional reserve banking.

ERGO, criticizing fractional reserve banking is criticizing Israel and is therefore not-so-cleverly-disguised-closet-anti-ewe-gno-what.

____________________

I joined the Musician's Union in 1970 (I was moving to Vegas) and The Boilermakers in 1988. I showed my (Musicians) union card in New York, Toronto, Las Vegas and some FLA gigs, but not in Hollywood CA or most other states I played. And the only thing the Musicians' Union ever did for us was to tell our women singers that they couldn't play percussion other than their tambourines in New York City!

I joined the Boilermakers to work in a shop on specialized and proprietary automatic welding processes because a fellow musician was working there and he convinced me it was a good job. (He was wrong. The shop sucked, the wages were low unless I was in the field fixing some usually simple electrical problem and I had fewer rights under that contract than I did under state and federal labor laws)

In short the only unions that had any muscle here were the UAW (at GM and CHRYSLER plants and both will be closed soon) and years ago when my in-laws tried to talk me into applying I correctly predicted that those plants would be closed before I could retire. The day I left the Boilermakers I told my co-workers that our shop was so inefficient that it would be a parking lot in five years, and it took only three. The company now trucks the equipment all the way from their non union division in Mississippi if they get a contract to build any oil or water tanks or a nuke plant "up Nawth".)

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2009-06-09   1:27:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: HOUNDDAWG (#121)

hound...

On the plus side for capital, I remember IBM during the depression did NOT lay anyone off. No one got rich but they ate regularly. IBM at the time was not a wealthy company. Henry Ford on the other hand was the richest man in the world and had men shot and killed because they protested slashing their wages in half and refusing to address worker safety concerns.

The overwhelming majority of us here and elsewhere are of the underclass, the unwashed masses, we have never been and will never be of the elite that own and operate this country and our government. Unions are not made up of concerned millionaires, thus when the new day comes and the masses need to rise up exert their will and anger it will once more be the union members that will do it.

No one else is organized.

Cynicom  posted on  2009-06-09   2:29:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: HOUNDDAWG (#121)

If you want to see muscle, take a look at California and how the public employee unions run the place.

Right now, those unions are driving California into the ground. In a state that has 12% state income tax and 10% state sales tax, they want $44B in tax increases to feed them.

That's a full third of California's budget, assuming they had all of it to spend this year.

Tax collection is down 50%+ in California, yet the public employee unions wish to hike taxes on everyone there because they have to be fed. They are overfed in California.

Its sad to say, but -- the REAL unions fought the battle and won. Their successors are pale shadows of REAL unions. REAL unions like IBEW take care of their people, train them, and make sure they have jobs.

Its truly sad to see what is going on nowadays.

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-09   2:44:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: Cynicom (#122)

Cyn - you're living 80+ years in the past.

We have to deal with the present. The Unions of the past were needed, supported by the public, and performed a worthwhile service.

What do they do today that makes them worthy of their predecessors?

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-09   2:45:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: mirage (#123)

That's one of the reasons we left CA in 1985.

The Franchise Tax Board were more aggressive than the IRS, with their billboards promising amnesty to those whose knees buckled, and implying something awful was awaiting those who didn't blink.

10 years ago the IBEW (Local 313-Delaware) came through my job sites every day handing out literature and trying to organize us. After 9/11 they had sent all of the travelers home and they had two hundred of their own members on the bench.

They never recovered and construction is still at a crawl since that terrible day.

In short all of the trades are hurting, and this trade union simply cannot guarantee jobs for its members.

DE used to have all kinds of work building panels for electrical and chemical processes (for Hercules and Dupont) as well as lots of commercial/industrial and even residential work. But with MBNA selling out and Dupont shrinking and banking in general in crisis the classifieds that used to be thick with jobs have one or two in some fields and none in some others.

Hell, there were two jobs that went into the paper every summer because they were the worst. One was a company that makes roofing materials and the other was a steel mill. Even their electricians decided not to quit and go job hunting since 9/11 and that means they have to suffer through the awful summer heat around hot tar/rubber vats and electric smelters.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2009-06-09   3:10:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: HOUNDDAWG (#125)

You'll note I'm blasting the Government unions and the Union Thugs like the Stageworkers' Union.

IBEW I have great respect for. Despite the downturn, they are still trying to find honest work for their folks.

CTA, on the other hand, I have zero respect for, but I'm closely tied to the Ed Biz and I know all the dirty tricks that go on behind the scenes and that administrative overhead in most districts approximates the number of teachers they have.

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-09   4:35:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: mirage (#124)

Cyn - you're living 80+ years in the past.

We have to deal with the present.

Lets bring it up to the present.

As a Federal employee I was forced into a Union for self preservation, DURING THE PRESIDENCY OF JOHN KENNEDY/LYNDON JOHNSON. They were two of the most socialist presidents this country has ever seen, if you recall they were the "labor" presidents???????

Many of my coworkers thought they could bring this country to a halt. They were all young turks, they were going to show the world the power they had. Talk as I and the older workers did, it made no difference.

Ronald Reagan showed them the door and I and the older hands cheered all the way. I retired just prior to this shameful labor act by the workers. Most of my coworkers and friends were former WW2 and Korean pilots,controllers etc etc etc.

Because I had friends in management in Washington, several came to me with hat in hand looking for their jobs back. I helped NONE.

Living in the past??? Perhaps to some. Even the controllers walkout did have a restraining effect on the government as an employer.

Cynicom  posted on  2009-06-09   8:12:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: Cynicom (#127) (Edited)

Lets bring it up to the present.

You're still living 30 years in the past with the Reagan Air Traffic controllers' strike.

Let's bring it up to today.

California: For example, there are pledge forms being passed around to lawmakers by a major labor union that might have attracted takers in budget battles past. The union, the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, wants the legislators to sign statements of support for up to $44 billion in new or higher taxes on the wealthy, oil companies, tobacco and other industries, products and people.

Defend that. It is exactly the behavior you are defending currently. Obviously you support higher taxes so the Government Unions in California can make out like bandits. Move there and pay it.

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-09   10:57:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: mirage (#128)

You're still living 30 years in the past with the Reagan Air Traffic controllers' strike.

OK,

The controllers now have a new union and they are laden with young turks, once again.

The union and their employer, the government, are at each others throats every day.

Anything changed in the last fifty years????? Nope.

Cynicom  posted on  2009-06-09   11:05:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: Cynicom (#129)

Anything changed in the last fifty years????? Nope.

The labor laws have changed significantly. Affirmative Action is now entrenched in hiring and promotion practices. Governments are running out of money whereas 50 years ago, still riding high off of the "last man standing" status from WWII, they were flush.

Companies are going bankrupt due to foreign competition and being unable to compete on price themselves.

100 million immigrants and their offspring now compete for jobs in the US with Americans whose ancestors had been here for generations.

We have computers and telecommunications technology that permit one to utilize knowledge workers from anywhere on the planet including Antarctica.

Nothing has changed indeed.

"We're looking for [Obama] supporters," said DeHaven of Hoover, one of the event's organizers. "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

mirage  posted on  2009-06-09   11:19:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: mirage (#130)

Nothing has changed indeed.

We wuz talkin bout Unions and employers.

I have witnessed nearly 80 years of this country sliding into chaos, and I even recall when we were relatively free. Course that is worthless ancient history.

Cynicom  posted on  2009-06-09   11:26:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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