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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Who Are Genuine Christians?
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Jun 5, 2009
Author: None
Post Date: 2009-06-05 16:16:26 by richard9151
Keywords: None
Views: 414
Comments: 21

Who Are Genuine Christians?

“CHRISTIANITY exists only where the memory of Jesus Christ is activated in theory and practice.” (On Being a Christian) With those words, Swiss theologian Hans Küng states a self-evident truth: Genuine Christianity exists only where sincere individuals put Jesus’ teachings into practice.

What, then, if individuals or institutions claim to be followers of Christ but do not, in fact, practice what Jesus taught? Jesus himself said that many would claim to be Christians. They would point to various activities to prove that they had served him, saying: “Did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?” How, though, would Jesus react? His dramatic words express his judgment: “I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.”—Matthew 7:22, 23.

What a stark warning for “workers of lawlessness” who claim to follow Jesus! Consider two fundamental conditions that Jesus sets if he is to recognize people as genuine Christians rather than reject them as workers of lawlessness.

“If You Have Love Among Yourselves”

One condition Jesus sets is this: “I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”—John 13:34, 35.

Jesus requires his followers to have genuine love for one another and for the rest of mankind. Many individual Christians have fulfilled that condition during the centuries since Jesus walked the earth. But what about most of the religious organizations that have claimed to represent Christ? Has their history been marked by love? Certainly not. Instead, they have been in the forefront of countless wars and conflicts in which innocent blood has been spilled.—Revelation 18:24.

That has been true right up to modern times. Nations claiming to be Christian took the lead in the slaughter that marked the two world wars of the 20th century. More recently, members of so-called Christian churches were in the forefront of the savage atrocities and attempted genocide that took place in Rwanda in 1994. “Those who had turned against one another in this gory fashion,” writes former Anglican archbishop Desmond Tutu, “espoused the same faith. Most were Christian.”

“If You Remain in My Word”

A second fundamental requirement for genuine Christianity was spelled out by Jesus when he said: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”—John 8:31, 32.

Jesus expects his followers to remain in his word—that is, to stick to his teachings. Instead, religious teachers claiming to follow Christ have “increasingly adopted Greek concepts,” notes theologian Küng. They have replaced Jesus’ teachings with, among others, ideas like the immortality of the soul, a belief in purgatory, worship of Mary, and a clergy class—ideas borrowed from pagan religions and philosophers.—1 Corinthians 1:19-21; 3:18-20.

Religious teachers also introduced the incomprehensible doctrine of the Trinity, elevating Jesus to a position he never claimed for himself. In the process, they distracted people from worshipping the one to whom Jesus always directed attention—his Father, Jehovah. (Matthew 5:16; 6:9; John 14:28; 20:17) “When Jesus speaks of God,” writes Hans Küng, “he means the ancient God of the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: Yahweh . . . For him this is the one and sole God.” How many people today immediately associate Jesus’ God and Father with Yahweh, or Jehovah, as his name is commonly written in the English language?

Religious leaders have completely departed from Jesus’ command to stay neutral in political affairs. In Jesus’ day, Galilee “was the heartland of ethnic nationalism,” states writer Trevor Morrow. Many Jewish patriots took up arms to gain political and religious freedom. Did Jesus tell his disciples to get involved in such struggles? No. On the contrary, he told them: “You are no part of the world.” (John 15:19; 17:14) Instead of remaining neutral, however, church leaders developed what Irish writer Hubert Butler describes as “militant and political ecclesiasticism.” “Political Christianity,” he writes, “is almost always also militarist Christianity and when statesmen and ecclesiastics come to terms it always happens that, in return for certain privileges, the Church gives its blessing to the military forces of the state.”

False Teachers Disown Jesus

The apostle Paul warned of a falling away from genuine Christianity. He said that after his death, “oppressive wolves” from among professed Christians would “speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.” (Acts 20:29, 30) They would “publicly declare they know God,” but in reality they would “disown him by their works.” (Titus 1:16) The apostle Peter likewise warned that false teachers would “quietly bring in destructive sects and [would] disown even the owner that bought them.” Their bad conduct, he said, would cause people to speak “abusively” about “the way of the truth.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2) To disown Christ in this way, says Greek scholar W. E. Vine, means to “deny the Father and the Son, by apostatizing and by disseminating pernicious teachings.”

How would Jesus react if professed disciples deliberately failed to “remain in [his] word” and to meet other requirements that he set out? He warned: “Whoever disowns me before men, I will also disown him before my Father who is in the heavens.” (Matthew 10:33) Of course, Jesus does not disown someone who makes a mistake despite his earnest desire to be faithful. For example, although the apostle Peter denied Jesus three times, Peter repented and was forgiven. (Matthew 26:69-75) However, Jesus disowns individuals or institutions that turn out to be wolves in sheep’s clothing—pretending to follow Christ but willfully and persistently rejecting his teachings. Of such false teachers, Jesus said: “By their fruits you will recognize those men.”—Matthew 7:15-20.

Apostles Die, and Apostasy Develops

When did false Christians begin to disown Christ? Very shortly after Jesus’ death. He himself warned that Satan the Devil would quickly oversow “weeds,” or false Christians, among the “fine seed,” or genuine Christians, that Jesus planted during his ministry. (Matthew 13:24, 25, 37-39) The apostle Paul warned that deceptive teachers were already at work in his day. The fundamental reason for their deviation from the teachings of Jesus Christ, he said, was that they had no real “love of the truth.”—2 Thessalonians 2:10.

The apostles of Jesus Christ acted as a restraint against this apostasy for as long as they lived. After the death of the apostles, however, religious leaders using “every powerful work and lying signs and portents and . . . every unrighteous deception” in order to mislead many turned more and more people away from the truths taught by Jesus and his apostles. (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 6-12) In time, writes English philosopher Bertrand Russell, the original Christian congregation was changed into a religious organization that “would astonish Jesus, and even Paul.”

Genuine Christianity Restored

The record is clear. Since the death of the apostles, Christ has not been in much of what has taken place in the name of Christianity. However, that does not mean that Jesus has failed to keep his promise to be with his followers “all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Matthew 28:20) We can be sure that ever since he said those words, there have been faithful individuals among whom “the memory of Jesus Christ [has been] activated in theory and practice.” Jesus Christ has kept his promise to support such ones as they have endeavored to show the love that marks true Christians and to remain loyal to the truths that he taught.

Even better, Jesus promised that in the last days of this system of things, he would gather his faithful disciples into a clearly identifiable Christian congregation that he would use to accomplish his will. (Matthew 24:14, 45-47) He is right now using that congregation to gather together “a great crowd” of men, women, and children “out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,” and he is uniting them under his headship into “one flock” under “one shepherd.”—Revelation 7:9, 14-17; John 10:16; Ephesians 4:11-16.

Turn away, then, from any institutions or organizations that have besmirched the name of Christ and defamed Christianity over the past two thousand years. Otherwise, as Jesus Christ told the apostle John, you could “receive part of [their] plagues” when God executes his judgment on them in the near future. (Revelation 1:1; 18:4, 5) Make it your resolve to be among those spoken about by the prophet Micah when he said that “in the final part of the days,” true worshippers—adherents of true Christianity—would listen to God’s instructions and “walk in his paths” of restored pure worship. (Micah 4:1-4) The publishers of this magazine will be happy to help you identify those true worshippers.

Think, please, on these two points;

Why do genuine Christians not participate in warfare?

“Have love among yourselves” and “remain in my word” are fundamental conditions that Jesus sets for genuine Christians

See the paper; Did Jesus Christ Teach the Trinity?

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#1. To: richard9151 (#0)

Who Are Genuine Christians?

Who cares!

Valhalla I'm Coming!!

"America without her freedoms, is like a body without a soul" - Adam Kokesh

Flintlock  posted on  2009-06-05   16:39:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: richard9151 (#0)

“all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

That is a horrible translation. It's not "conclusion of the system of things", its "the end of the age".

Their bad conduct, he said, would cause people to speak “abusively” about “the way of the truth.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2)

You wont hear many sermons preached on that one...

The publishers of this magazine will be happy to help you identify those true worshippers.

Sure they will...

What is the JW position on deadly force applied to an imminent threat to life or limb? I'ts one thing to condemn warfare, and rightly so. But what about personal protection?

.


It's a fine line between being too specific and long winded and therefore too irritating to bother to read, and being too cryptic and therefore too irritating to try to interpret.

It's a forum post, not a doctoral thesis.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

PSUSA  posted on  2009-06-05   17:46:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: richard9151 (#0) (Edited)

...true worshipers—adherents of true Christianity...

...will be happy to help you identify those true worshipers.

Though Bethel likens itself to 'true Christianity' or 'true worship,' they too miss the mark.

In 'truth' the genuine followers of The Lamb and Our Father are to be found everywhere in this world. Although they're not 'members' of any of the mainstream 'religions' necessarily, or even 'witnesses,' their personal values and their love of truth, and yes their love for their fellows of all races, colors and national identities, sets them apart.

This 'earthly existence' is not the 'final test' of our desire to follow 'the way.' We're assured in 'the Word' that all will be raised from death and be given the 'waters of life' before our final choice which comes later.

The 'witnesses' mean well, among the rank and file, but their 'leadership' is as corrupt as any. Robots will be robots...

SCPO Blackshoe Retired  posted on  2009-06-06   4:19:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: richard9151, all, thread, somebody, anybody, please, (#0)

Who Are Genuine Christians?

The "real" question here is "who are genuine assholes" ?

I must admit when I saw the article title I knew it would be something richard9151 had laid on the forum for his own personal zealotry agenda. I know it has been said that "it takes one to know one" and I'm willing to accept the tag of "asshole" if it gives me the satisfaction of asking for a vote.

I may be an asshole but I'm a democratic asshole that will not impose my asshole related zealotry upon an unsuspecting public like this asshole Richard does. I see that Richard9151 is only happy when he's able shove his JW junk down other peoples throats or when he's able to self elevate to esteemed teacher of the unwashed masses.

Being a democratic asshole I believe in taking the consensus from the pool being subjected to the never ending taunting of assholes like Richard9151. So, please bear with me and take a moment to vote on this question as presented.

The question is this: Is it easier to tell that Richard9151 is (a) a Christian, or (b) an asshole ?

Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.

De La Boétie

noone222  posted on  2009-06-06   5:03:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: noone222 (#4) (Edited)

The question is this: Is it easier to tell that Richard9151 is (a) a Christian, or (b) an asshole ?

False choice. I vote C) Deceived". He thinks he has found the truth because he learned a few things about the fraudulent doctrines, interpretations and translations of the mainstream, but he hasn't learned that there is also fraud and deception in the JW organization. He refuses to see it, because the JW were probably the only ones that he knew that exposed these things and he might be a little too loyal to them for doing it.

He makes a great deal about how much love there is in the .org, and how much they study scriptures, and that may be, but engage him and he will almost always answer with JW doctrines.

.


It's a fine line between being too specific and long winded and therefore too irritating to bother to read, and being too cryptic and therefore too irritating to try to interpret.

It's a forum post, not a doctoral thesis.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

PSUSA  posted on  2009-06-06   7:47:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: noone222 (#4)

The question is this: Is it easier to tell that Richard9151 is (a) a Christian, or (b) an asshole ?

You forgot opeion numbero 3. You are a cunt.

I choose you are a cunt.

Old Friend  posted on  2009-06-06   7:50:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: richard9151 (#0) (Edited)

“If You Remain in My Word”

A second fundamental requirement for genuine Christianity was spelled out by Jesus when he said: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”—John 8:31, 32. ....

.

Religious teachers also introduced the incomprehensible doctrine of the Trinity, elevating Jesus to a position he never claimed for himself

never????

Jhn 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

Jhn 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Jhn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.

Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, **** I AM

Jhn 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him:......

[because He was declaring Himself to be the Great I AM: God the Father, so don't let them blame Jesus' death on the Romans. edit. The Pharisees would have killed Him themselves, if He had let them, but it had been declared long ago how He should die: www.blueletterbible.org/s....cfm?b=Gen&c=3&v=15&t=KJV , The Romans would have let Him go, but the Jews yelled "Crucify Him!".... yet if they had understood the prophecy, they would never have let Him be killed: kingjbible.com/1_corinthians/2.htm ....thus they fell right into His trap. bible.cc/john/19-11.htm / bible.cc/john/8-44.htm ]

.......but Jesus "hid" himself,

[.....becoming a "Ghost" or "Spirit", perhaps?]

....and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/s....cfm?b=Jhn&c=8&v=58&t=KJV

Exd 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, **** I AM hath sent me unto you.

Exd 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of] God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them......

http://www.blueletterbible.org/s....cfm?b=Exd&c=3&v=14&t=KJV

http://www.blueletterbible.org/s...d&c=6&v=3&t=KJV#JEHOVAH_3

bible.cc/exodus/6-3.htm

Strong's H3068 - Yhovah •7;•2;•3;•2;

Transliteration

Yhovah

Pronunciation

yeh·ho·vä' (Key)

Part of Speech

proper noun with reference to deity

Outline of Biblical Usage

Jehovah = "the existing One"

1) the proper name of the one true God

http://www.blueletterbible.org/l...n.cfm?Strongs=H3068&t=KJV

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

[ Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Rev 1:14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire;

Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

[note to myself: "many waters" Comet Lulin]

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death....

http://www.blueletterbible.org/B...m?b=Rev&c=1&v=11&t=KJV#11

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. **** I am the root [ See God http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=3&v=38#38 / http://www.blueletterbible.org/s...ev&c=22&v=16&t=KJV#I_am_3 and the offspring of David, [ http://www.blueletterbible.org/s....cfm?b=Luk&c=3&v=23&t=KJV ] [and] the bright and morning star.

[Luk 3:23 — And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli,

"The real father of Joseph was Jacob ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=1&v=16#16 ); but having married the daughter of Heli, and being perhaps adopted by him, he was called his son, and as such was entered in the public registers; Mary not being mentioned, because the Hebrews never permitted the name of a woman to enter the genealogical tables, but inserted her husband as the son of him who was, in reality, but his father-in-law. Hence it appears that Matthew, who wrote principally for the Jews, traces the pedigree of Jesus Christ from Abraham, through whom the promises were given to the Jews, to David, and from David, through the line of Solomon, to Jacob the father of Joseph, the reputed or legal father of Christ; and that Luke, who wrote for the Gentiles, extends his genealogy upwards from Heli, the father of Mary, through the line of Nathan, to David, and from David to Abraham, and from Abraham to Adam, who was the immediate ""son of God"" by creation, and to whom the promise of the Saviour was given in behalf of himself and all his posterity" http://www.blueletterbible.org/s....cfm?b=Luk&c=3&v=23&t=KJV ]

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

[note to myself: Comet Lulin]

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly......

[note to myself: Comet Lulin]

The Root and The Offspring of David. One of the most curious titles associated with Jesus is one that He chose to use. www.direct.ca/trinity/root.html

Revelation 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies. I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star. ... bible.cc/revelation/22-16.htm

23. ROOT AND OFFSPRING OF DAVID. "I am the Root and the Offspring of David."—Rev. 22:16 ... As God, He is the Root of David; as man, He is his offspring. ... http://www.gracegems.org/LAW/gl23.htm

The Root of Jesse. I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star. ... http://www.shalom.org.uk/Messiah/rootJesse.htm

"... Messiah Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus the Messiah is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:5-11)" http://www.shalom.org.uk/Messiah/MightyGod.htm

==========================

“If You Remain in My Word”

A second fundamental requirement for genuine Christianity was spelled out by Jesus when he said: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”—John 8:31, 32. ....

"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2009-06-06   8:53:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: SCPO Blackshoe Retired (#3)

This 'earthly existence' is not the 'final test' of our desire to follow 'the way.' We're assured in 'the Word' that all will be raised from death and be given the 'waters of life' before our final choice which comes later.

I keep hearing variations of that theme.

Would you be so kind as to tell me where that is written?

Thanks.

"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2009-06-06   8:56:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: noone222, Richard9151 (#4)

The question is this: Is it easier to tell that Richard9151 is (a) a Christian, or (b) an asshole ?

Which is easier for you to savage with wild ass swings that connect to nothing, Richard9151 or his well argued citations of Christian dogma?

Why don't you tell us why he's mistaken and how it is that George W. Bush really was doing the Lord's work when he ordered the destruction of The Cradle Of Civilization and how he walked with Jesus when he lied like Hell to sell it to other pseudo-Christian psychos?

And, do true Christians worship public figures that host male hustlers in the White House for over 200 sleepovers?

Are you going to stay in that trance until the bodies around you start to rot like those in Jonestown?

Separation from the secular world while awaiting the Rapture is one thing, but, true Christians don't cocoon themselves to keep away from the bloodshed, or in defense of slavery, or to elevate their controllers and themselves above accountability for ghastly crimes against humanity....

Don't look now but you've begun to foam at the mouth and force people to visualize some truly ugly images. I can hardly wait to see your Christian grace when you turn the other "cheek" (presumably to conjure up and visualize another "asshole")

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2009-06-07   2:26:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: HOUNDDAWG (#9)

Why don't you tell us why he's mistaken and how it is that George W. Bush really was doing the Lord's work when he ordered the destruction of The Cradle Of Civilization and how he walked with Jesus when he lied like Hell to sell it to other pseudo-Christian psychos?

1st, the argument is more important to Richard than the truth. That's my observation over the years, and I don't always disagree with the message. I do detest the never ending barrage of arguments that have been argued for thousands of years without resolution. The know it all approach also pisses me off a little since many minds better than his (or mine) have failed to reach consensus ... so why beat a dead horse.

2nd, how anyone can attach God to George W. Bush is beyond me in my most imaginative state.

Lastly, I have continually noted that I believe the so called Christian evangelicals are wrong headed zealots that are the only reason the zionazi state of Israel exists.

Don't look now but you've begun to foam at the mouth and force people to visualize some truly ugly images. I can hardly wait to see your Christian grace when you turn the other "cheek" (presumably to conjure up and visualize another "asshole")

If I had a picture of you, others could see the asshole conjured up in my mind ... alas, look in the mirror is the best advice I can offer.

Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.

De La Boétie

noone222  posted on  2009-06-07   5:29:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#8) (Edited)

This 'earthly existence' is not the 'final test' of our desire to follow 'the way.' We're assured in 'the Word' that all will be raised from death and be given the 'waters of life' before our final choice which comes later.

I keep hearing variations of that theme.

Would you be so kind as to tell me where that is written?

Thanks.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt,

I'd be glad to! I hope you find the links interesting, enlightening and encouraging. Hopefully, somewhat humorous too.

http://bible-truths.com/

http://bible-truths.com/lake5.html

http://bible-truths.com/email15.htm#failure

SCPO Blackshoe Retired  posted on  2009-06-08   0:06:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: PSUSA, noone222, richard9151 (#5)

The question is this: Is it easier to tell that Richard9151 is (a) a Christian, or (b) an asshole ?

False choice. I vote C) Deceived". He thinks he has found the truth because he learned a few things about the fraudulent doctrines, interpretations and translations of the mainstream, but he hasn't learned that there is also fraud and deception in the JW organization. He refuses to see it, because the JW were probably the only ones that he knew that exposed these things and he might be a little too loyal to them for doing it.

He makes a great deal about how much love there is in the .org, and how much they study scriptures, and that may be, but engage him and he will almost always answer with JW doctrines.

Personally, from the little reading I have done, if one truly wished to get closer to the "Christianity" actually practiced by Christ one would become a Nestorian or Coptic Christian as their practices and beliefs are likely closer to what Christianity originally was.

The most fundamental problem is that we have no documents in Christ's own writing, and the Christian Bible as is, is bowlderized, edited, and reformulated to the wishes of the temporal powers at each mistranslation of an earlier translation.

"I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-06-08   0:29:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Original_Intent, PSUSA (#12)

and the Christian Bible as is, is bowlderized, edited, and reformulated to the wishes of the temporal powers at each mistranslation of an earlier translation.

I am sorry to hear you say this, because, in reality, this is what you are saying; I have no faith in the ability of a maybe Almighty God to protect His own Word.

If you lack that faith, then you lack the basic and essential element that is needed for salvation. Faith in God, and in His son, Jesus Christ.

I posted this before and I am going to post it again. Perhaps you should read it.

Do We Really Need the Originals of the Bible?

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2009-06-08   1:20:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Original_Intent (#12)

Personally, from the little reading I have done, if one truly wished to get closer to the "Christianity" actually practiced by Christ one would become a Nestorian or Coptic Christian as their practices and beliefs are likely closer to what Christianity originally was.

I started out trying to be funny or make a point that I get tired of Richard acting as if he or the JWs have discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls. Several others have posted serious responses to my laughable reply so I guess I should try to be a little more serious.

I don't want to argue about things the church fathers have already argued ad infinitum. I don't care to be preached to and even if I did the JWs Church isn't where I'd go. It simply seems to me that Richard gets some sick pleasure out of starting an argument or having a place where he can take a dump every day. That's all.

I like studying the Bible or referencing it at times at my own whim.

Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.

De La Boétie

noone222  posted on  2009-06-08   1:39:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Original_Intent (#12)

The most fundamental problem is that we have no documents in Christ's own writing, and the Christian Bible as is, is bowlderized, edited, and reformulated to the wishes of the temporal powers at each mistranslation of an earlier translation.

That is what the "infallible" KJV is. It's a translation of a translation of a translation, if I recall correctly. IMO it's good, if you understand its limitations and correct a few errors that entire denominations have built their doctrines on.

And... that so-called perfect translation has gone thru a lot of revisions. I wonder which version is "perfect" now...

.


It's a fine line between being too specific and long winded and therefore too irritating to bother to read, and being too cryptic and therefore too irritating to try to interpret.

It's a forum post, not a doctoral thesis.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

PSUSA  posted on  2009-06-08   6:11:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: richard9151 (#13)

I am sorry to hear you say this, because, in reality, this is what you are saying; I have no faith in the ability of a maybe Almighty God to protect His own Word.

If OI wanted to say that, he'd say it.

Why did you ping me?

.


It's a fine line between being too specific and long winded and therefore too irritating to bother to read, and being too cryptic and therefore too irritating to try to interpret.

It's a forum post, not a doctoral thesis.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

PSUSA  posted on  2009-06-08   6:12:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: PSUSA, Original_Intent (#16)

Why did you ping me?

Because you were pinged by Original_Intent; no other reason.

If OI wanted to say that, he'd say it.

That is exactly what he did say, and it is exactly what you say on the subject as well. "Copies of copies of copies and we know that God did not protect the translations. Cause He can't." However you cut it, that is exactly what each of you claim.

As for me, I do not consider it to be an accident that all of the material that has been found by archelogists over the last, oh, 70 years or so can be anything other than the Hand of God preparing the world for the return of His Son. AND, leaving no excuses for those who, once again, just as when Jesus walked the earth, reject him and his teachings.

You should both carefully consider what you think, cause when Jesus returns, there will be a judical judging of the people alive today, just as there was with Sodom and Gommorah and with the Great Flood. It is fully discussed in the Bible.

The reason that people reject the Bible has nothing to do with the distrust of the copies; it has to do with rejecting the Power of Almighty God. There are numerous translators who have worked on this, and they all say the same thing; what we have today is as close as humanly possible to those words that Jesus read in the scrolls of that day, AND CONFIRMED BY HIS QUOTING THEM, and his words spoken in public and protected by God's Holy Spirit through the apostles. Of course, rather than listen to such experts, both of you and most others would rather listen to the nay sayers/sons of the wicked one who reject the Power of God.

Everything that you read in the Bible points to this time in the system of things, and in preparing us for the return of Jesus Christ. As I made the point before, until now, there was no real reason to have an accurate Bible (because of the resurrection of all); that reason, having an accurate Bible this close to the end of this wicked system of things, is an absolute neccessity NOW. Just as the restoration of His Holy Name to the Bible was an absolute neccessity. After all, since the originals of the Hebrew Scriptures had His Name in them more than 6,800 times, you can hardly have an accurate trnaslation without the Holy Name.

If you would simply put your prejudice about the copies aside and think this through, you would understand. If either of you can do so, I do not know. But I will give you one example. There was found a nearly complete Book of Isaiah that dates from 200 years before the birth of Jesus Christ. To all intents; identical to what is in the New World Translation.

And, of course, that is why I put that post, about the NWT, so people would have no excuse about knowing about it's accuracy.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2009-06-08   10:58:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: richard9151 (#17)

That is exactly what he did say, and it is exactly what you say on the subject as well. "Copies of copies of copies and we know that God did not protect the translations. Cause He can't." However you cut it, that is exactly what each of you claim.

OK Richard, tell me, which version of which translation is perfect? Remember, God is perfect, right? Which version has His Perfect and Divine Seal Of Approval?

Is it the NWT? I've already pointed out errors in that. Besides, before that translation there was what? What perfect version was there before the NWT? Did God just leave people in the dark before that? Too, it's probably an interpretation, not a translation.

I could tear your post apart, piece by piece, sentence by sentence. But I wont, because even though I asked you a question in this post, you won't answer it, because you can't.

.


It's a fine line between being too specific and long winded and therefore too irritating to bother to read, and being too cryptic and therefore too irritating to try to interpret.

It's a forum post, not a doctoral thesis.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

PSUSA  posted on  2009-06-08   11:05:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: PSUSA (#18)

which version of which translation is perfect?

Never said it was perfect. Does not have to be perfect. What on this earth, as controlled by man/men is perfect? Nothing. That being said, the NWT is as close as anything can be that is prepared by men. According to the experts.

I've already pointed out errors in that.

So you claim. And who has named you as an expert? I will take the word of the professor of languages over yours. Sorry, but I have a lot of experience with living with and understanding a foreign language, and the nuances of such is beyond anyone who did not grow up in both languages. Or, who has an innate ability to learn languages AND is willing to devote their life to doing so.

Did God just leave people in the dark before that

No. And why would you make such a silly claim? Remember when you argued with me about the Roman church and their banning of the Bible? The biggest enemy that the Roman church has is the Bible. Why? Because both of us are an example of what can be done when you read the Bible and act on what you read. I clensed myself of the trinity and holy days of the world through the Bible. So did you, or so you say. So how were we in the dark?!

BUT... that does not change what is going on in the world today, which is a preparation for the return of Jesus Christ. Much more important now, cause those who reject the Christ NOW will NOT be resurrected. Ever.

And, of course, you are busy arguing exactly has you have before about the Power of God and His inability to protect and make ready His Word to accomplish His Purposes. So be it.

Daniel 2:44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;.

richard9151  posted on  2009-06-08   11:34:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: richard9151 (#19)

Never said it was perfect. Does not have to be perfect. What on this earth, as controlled by man/men is perfect?

I am sorry to hear you say this, because, in reality, this is what you are saying; I have no faith in the ability of a maybe Almighty God to protect His own Word.

If you lack that faith, then you lack the basic and essential element that is needed for salvation. Faith in God, and in His son, Jesus Christ.

Those are your words, not mine. What YOU are saying is that God did not "protect His own word".

Now you can backtrack all you want to, but these quotes simply do not match up. You are not consistent.

So you claim. And who has named you as an expert? I will take the word of the professor of languages over yours. Sorry, but I have a lot of experience with living with and understanding a foreign language, and the nuances of such is beyond anyone who did not grow up in both languages. Or, who has an innate ability to learn languages AND is willing to devote their life to doing so.

Now this is funny! First you criticize the RC church for hiding scripture, but now you also depend on those with degrees??? Do you realize how nonsensical that is?

D James Kennedy had either 5 or 6 DOCTORATES! Se spoke fluent greek and hebrew! He was not stupid! But he didn't have a clue!

You are letting others do your thinking for you.

Now I have pointed out various inconsistencies in the scriptures translations, particularly in the KJV but I can do the same thing to the JW bible too. You dont need a degree in basket weaving to do that. I never one single time claimed to be an "expert".

Now you made a claim that God is able to "protect His own word". Now either God sinned in failing to hit that mark, or there is a perfect translation out there.

Which one is perfect?

And what exactly is "maybe Almighty God"? Where di you come up with this stuff?

.


It's a fine line between being too specific and long winded and therefore too irritating to bother to read, and being too cryptic and therefore too irritating to try to interpret.

It's a forum post, not a doctoral thesis.

Click for Privacy and Preparedness files

PSUSA  posted on  2009-06-08   13:24:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: richard9151 (#19)

...cause those who reject the Christ NOW will NOT be resurrected. Ever.

Oddly, there are many 'Christians' who believe that. Even the 'witnesses.'

However, and fortunately, this is not at all what Our Father, by means of The Word, has told us.

The Lamb came into the world to save the world, the whole world (all life upon earth), and it shall be done!

The teachings of the corrupted Roman Church, infiltrated by Pharisaic Pretenders to 'destroy' the word of The Lamb, continue on today.

Why? Because they are very 'useful' to the controllers and dominators who 'rule' by fear. They are the teachings of Sah-Tahn and his offspring.

Our Father and The Lamb are love, and they rule by love. Not one will be forgotten or lost. We will, however, all be brought to the fullness of truth and love by various 'programs' of learning. Those are going to be the wonderful times which will follow what is soon coming in the way of 'Global Warming.'

It is gonna be one rough and tumble ride!

SCPO Blackshoe Retired  posted on  2009-06-10   0:02:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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