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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: Magnetic forces to blame for 9/11 tower collapse
Source: The Independent
URL Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s ... 911-tower-collapse-924509.html
Published: Jul 24, 2009
Author: Steve Connor
Post Date: 2009-07-24 16:54:32 by Lysander_Spooner
Keywords: None
Views: 1474
Comments: 119

Magnetic forces to blame for 9/11 tower collapse

By Steve Connor

Wednesday, 10 September 2008

Scientists can finally explain why the Twin Towers collapsed on September 11, despite the temperature of the fires being well below the 1,500C melting point of the steel girders holding up the buildings.

The discovery that unusual magnetic forces within the girders made them weak at temperatures of about 500C explains away the conspiracy theories that have spread like wildfire since the disaster.

Sergei Dudarev, of the UK Atomic Energy Agency, found that steel loses its strength above 500C because its molecules undergo a physical transition from one state to another due to magnetic fluctuations. "The steel didn't melt, it just became soft. It is an unusual state and the temperatures in the Twin Towers were high enough to cause it because the thermal insulation was knocked off the girders through the impact with the aircraft," he said.

"Understanding how materials behave means we can find the right 'medicine' to make steel stronger at high temperatures... and if our work can be used for other applications, such as safeguarding tall buildings against disasters, so much the better," he said.

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#48. To: RickyJ (#44)

Any backyard griller can tell you that their grills never collapse to the ground at free fall speed despite grilling all day.

Well, to be fair, that's not a good analogy. Backyard grills are built to withstand that kind of heat without collapsing. The heat is not near the melting poing of a grill.

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-10-28   12:29:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: SonOfLiberty (#48)
(Edited)

Neither is the temperature of burning kerosene. In fact, burning charcoal burns at a much higher temperature that jet fuel does in an open flame burn at STP.

randge  posted on  2009-10-28   12:34:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: randge, christine, Lysander_Spooner, Kamala (#47)

Sorry for your poor understanding of science. Also, all these years later not one person in the implosion demolition business has defended your scenario.

To be honest, I think your views of implanted explosives, remote controlled drone planes, etc did much damage to the credibility of the more probable "let 9/11 happen" scenario" by labeling all 9/11 dissenters as kooks and forcing a man like Gore Vidal to defend himself against that label of conspiracy nut.

"We have oil. We have Putin - all that Russians think they need." - Vladimir Dubin, senior researcher at the Moscow-based Levada Centre.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   12:38:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: randge (#49)

You don't need to melt steel just heat it up enough for it to weaken. Like I said - why do they fireproof structural steel then? Insurance scam?

"We have oil. We have Putin - all that Russians think they need." - Vladimir Dubin, senior researcher at the Moscow-based Levada Centre.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   12:40:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Destro (#50)

What brought those buildings down is highly speculative.

You'll notice that no one on this thread mentioned "implanted explosives, remote controlled drone planes, etc".

The argument here is that the arguments officially put forth to explain the collapse of these buildings are lacking.

Myself, I would gladly leave all of this alone, and I would sleep better at night if the "let 9/11 happen" scenario" were true. There are just legions of unanswered questions still hanging out there as far as collapse is concerned.

randge  posted on  2009-10-28   12:47:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: randge (#52)

To bring about the post 9/11 world all you need is the event of the planes hitting the buildings. That is mind shattering enough. You don't need the towers to collapse to drive the point home. Every event that the bushies carried out after 9/11 would have been done regardless if one or none of the towers collapsed.

"We have oil. We have Putin - all that Russians think they need." - Vladimir Dubin, senior researcher at the Moscow-based Levada Centre.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   12:52:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: SonOfLiberty (#48)

Well, to be fair, that's not a good analogy. Backyard grills are built to withstand that kind of heat without collapsing. The heat is not near the melting poing of a grill.

We all know that there were other passports in that WTC Blaze ... and that's what did it ... hahahahaha

Auto engines don't melt, fireplace grates don't melt, and neither did the beams in the WTC !

The U.S. Govt has become a tyrannical butcher; U.S. taxpayers are accomplices to international murder and mayhem. If you satisfy your fears by bowing to this butcher, you forfeit your humanity and possibly your soul.

noone222  posted on  2009-10-28   12:58:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: noone222 (#54)

Well, I hate venturing onto 9/11 threads honestly. So many people with so many emotions that it's hard to say anything, even a neutral statement, without being hounded.

My post was simply suggesting that the analogy might be wrong. Grills are built to take the heat of glowing ember charcoals, even full flaming charcoals. I don't think buildings are built with that in mind (could be wrong). It just seemed like the wrong analogy for illustrating the point he was trying to make. The actual point itself I wasn't criticizing.

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-10-28   13:02:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: SonOfLiberty (#55)

Well, I like your tagline ...

The U.S. Govt has become a tyrannical butcher; U.S. taxpayers are accomplices to international murder and mayhem. If you satisfy your fears by bowing to this butcher, you forfeit your humanity and possibly your soul.

noone222  posted on  2009-10-28   13:04:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: noone222, randge (#54)

We all know that there were other passports in that WTC Blaze ... and that's what did it ... hahahahaha

See, that is a legit issue that makes me a 9/11 official party line doubter. But then if I bring it up I am labeled a kook because of the stigma associated with 9/11 conspiracists due to the demolitions in the towers belief which remains not credible. That is why I once and maybe still I felt that the more extreme 9/11 demolition by black ops theories were pushed and financed on the web by the Bush crowd as a way to shut up 9/11 dissenters.

"We have oil. We have Putin - all that Russians think they need." - Vladimir Dubin, senior researcher at the Moscow-based Levada Centre.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   13:13:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Destro (#57)

Not to belabor the subject, but I think the CIA/MOSSAD hired (arab) intel type contractors to blow the building up. I think they planted the necessary explosives when TRI-DATA did the 1993 clean up after that bombing. (TRI-DATA is owned by SYSTEMS PLANNING CORP.)

On 9-11 I think the planes that hit the Towers were flown by remote control using devices manufactured by SYSTEMS PLANNING CORP. a company that had as its former CEO a man named DOV ZAKHEIM that had left to become the COMPTROLLER at the PENTAGON and was the Pentagon Comptroller on 9- 11, just one day after Rumsfeld announced that the PENTAGON couldn't account for 2 TRILLION DOLLARS ... there ya have it ... MEANS, MOTIVE and OPPORTUNITY !!!

The U.S. Govt has become a tyrannical butcher; U.S. taxpayers are accomplices to international murder and mayhem. If you satisfy your fears by bowing to this butcher, you forfeit your humanity and possibly your soul.

noone222  posted on  2009-10-28   13:26:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Destro (#51)

You don't need to melt steel just heat it up enough for it to weaken

I have not seen convincing evidence that the steel in this building got anywhere near the 500°C claimed to cause the weakening spoken of above.

Sorry for your poor understanding of science.

I'm not a scientist or engineer, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe neither are you. I've studied physics and chemistry, so I'm not a complete dolt at these things. No reason to get personal here.

randge  posted on  2009-10-28   13:35:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Shoonra, a.k.a. Weasel Mike, TwentyTwelve, Wudidiz, christine, Jethro Tull, FormerLurker, IndieTX, Scrapper2, CadetD, farmfriend, Lysander_Spooner, Rotara, randge, ItIsTooLate, Happy2BeMe4um, all (#5) (Edited)

It's not an unusual state. Any blacksmith can tell you that when heated at temperatures well below the level produced in the WTC fires, steel and iron weaken and become malleable. Some conspiracy nuts think that the only way steel can weaken is if it's heated to complete liquification; they were only demonstrating their own ignorance.

Yawn.

Strawman Argument
"Straw man" is one of the best-named fallacies, because it is memorable and vividly illustrates the nature of the fallacy. Imagine a fight in which one of the combatants sets up a man of straw, attacks it, then proclaims victory. All the while, the real opponent stands by untouched.

Inevitably we get an endless redux of the same shabby shopworn tactics to buttress the "Official Conspiracy Theory®" over and over and over again.

Does anyone who has looked at the situation seriously suggest that liquefaction was neccessary for the towers to collapse?

NO. They do not and you can produce no reference or quote, from a credible researcher, to support your poor lame Straw Man.

On the flip side neither can you produce any credible evidence or authoritative, based on actual engineering science, explanation as to how the towers collapse symmetrically, uniformly, within 1 hour, and how the initial collapse was initiated simultaneously in 360 degrees by fires localized in limited areas; which the one fire crew to reach the scene radioed back required only 3 Hose Crews to "knock down the flames".

It is amusing to watch the "Official Conspiracy Theory®" morph over time and yet remain so much the same: "19Arabswhohateuscuzwe'refree" directed by a madman in the mountains of Tora Bora, with his "Magic Cellphone©", highjacked 4 airliners, in the most controlled airspace on the planet with box cutters and Pepper Spray, while striking such lightning speed and professional coordination as to prevent all 4 from broadcasting the 4 digit highjack code - following a final night of boozing and whoring while conspicuously leaving a Koran in a Bar (disregard that as these were fanatically devout Muslims to who such activities are prohibited by their fanatical religious laws), cast a spell to put NORAD to sleep, and then proceeded to leisurely crash 3 of those planes into massive structures built of interlocking reinforced steel girders (as much as 4 feet thick in places) causing them to tumble as though made of toothpicks neatly into their own footprints at nearly freefall speed.

It is almost breathtaking each time I see someone travel again down and around the FruitLoop attempting to float the latest preposterous planted explanation to justify the "Official Conspiracy Theory®".

We have gone from jet fuel to office fires to not even mentioning a source for the heat but just asserting that it somehow magically existed.

Of course even NIST and FEMA have been forced to admit that the Jet Fuel, initially used to justify the collapse, all burned up in the first ten minutes, and that Class Alpha Office Fires don't get hot enough to weaken steel. And yet each and every time we get a defender of the "Official Conspiracy Theory®" they always come back to some form of "incredible heat weakened the steel" cause by yet another in a succession of preposterous mechanisms for localized fires to create a uniform, symmetrical, simultaneous, collapse in 360 degrees, while not accounting for the resistance of the underlying structure to collapse. For a theory to be valid it must account for uniformly, predictably, and reproducibly, ALL of the observed phenomena. Yours, as usual with all shills/government apologists, does not. Of course there was one thing uniformly demolished - your argument.

And, by the way, some nut started the story of a pool of molten steel at Ground Zero, still liquid days after the collapse. Simply impossible. Even a nuclear explosion wouldn't have that effect.

The "nuclear explosion" quip is another delightful introduction of our old friend the Strawman.
Nuclear debris still producing radioactivity could, in a confined space such as a rubble pile, continue to generate sufficient heat, YEARS after the fact, to keep molten or near molten steel trapped near it in the rubble pile. Earth to Mikey/Shoonra - that is why Nuclear Piles require "cooling" water. They use it to, uh, prevent the pile from melting the containment vessel (as well as damp the reaction).

Unfortunately for your specious argument there exist a number of videos showing the recovery of molten debris up to 8 weeks after the Towers collapse.

A couple are located here

It is just so unfortunate for your childish petulant denial that the recovery of molten material from the Ground Zero was been recorded on more than one video. As well as having multiple witnesses attesting to the fact. I do not have to provide an explanation to simply show that your argument is false so don't even try that one. You are welcome to try and explain away documented evidence - that should be most amusing.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-10-28   13:59:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: randge, Destro, TwentyTwelve, christine, all (#59)

You don't need to melt steel just heat it up enough for it to weaken

I have not seen convincing evidence that the steel in this building got anywhere near the 500°C claimed to cause the weakening spoken of above.

Sorry for your poor understanding of science.

I'm not a scientist or engineer, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe neither are you. I've studied physics and chemistry, so I'm not a complete dolt at these things. No reason to get personal here.

Oh, it is absolutely necessary for a shill to get personal. It is one of their primary tactics in avoiding facts and issues.

Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-10-28   14:02:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Original_Intent, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine (#61)

You don't need to melt steel just heat it up enough for it to weaken I have not seen convincing evidence that the steel in this building got anywhere near the 500°C claimed to cause the weakening spoken of above.

Also, citing evidence of high rise fires for buildings NOT built like the WTC was where the outer shell was part of the structure over a boxed frame construction and did NOT have a plane of that size fly into them as an apples to apples comparison is just not acceptable. I can't take it serious as a comparison. That is common sense.

"We have oil. We have Putin - all that Russians think they need." - Vladimir Dubin, senior researcher at the Moscow-based Levada Centre.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   14:10:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Kamala (#30) (Edited)

Many, many witnesses reported molten iron or metal at the WTC.

The outside decorative "facade" (sic) was made of low grade metal similar to rebar. Rebar is the "mutt" of scrap steel with a very low melting point. I would bet this "molten steel" was the facade.

belmontconservative  posted on  2009-10-28   14:20:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: randge (#59)

I have not seen convincing evidence that the steel in this building got anywhere near the 500°C claimed to cause the weakening spoken of above.

My self cleaning oven heats up to 600 degrees I believe. The oven has never melted at that temperture. The TC fire was way way above 500 degrees.

belmontconservative  posted on  2009-10-28   14:33:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: noone222 (#58)

CIA/MOSSAD knowledge and involvement? I am without doubt (Dancing Israelis were actually arrested on 9/11 for terrorist suspicions let us not forget). Remote piloted drone planes? I don't buy it.

"We have oil. We have Putin - all that Russians think they need." - Vladimir Dubin, senior researcher at the Moscow-based Levada Centre.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   14:35:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Destro (#62)

Also, citing evidence of high rise fires for buildings NOT built like the WTC was where the outer shell was part of the structure over a boxed frame construction and did NOT have a plane of that size fly into them as an apples to apples comparison is just not acceptable. I can't take it serious as a comparison. That is common sense.

If there are similiarly built buildings I wonder if they have been retrofitted to prevent another such occurrence?

mininggold  posted on  2009-10-28   14:39:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: belmontconservative (#64)

Centigrade.

randge  posted on  2009-10-28   14:39:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: Destro, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, all (#62)

You don't need to melt steel just heat it up enough for it to weaken I have not seen convincing evidence that the steel in this building got anywhere near the 500°C claimed to cause the weakening spoken of above.

Also, citing evidence of high rise fires for buildings NOT built like the WTC was where the outer shell was part of the structure over a boxed frame construction and did NOT have a plane of that size fly into them as an apples to apples comparison is just not acceptable. I can't take it serious as a comparison. That is common sense.

As with all Strawman Arguments you leave out any data not accounted for in the "Official Conspiracy Theory®" i.e., that these particular buildings were designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707 which is very close in size to the aircraft that did hit the towers.

And did I adduce other fires into the argument? NO. So, you commit another related fallacy that of the Red Herring.

What kind of plane hit WTC 7?

Why did CNN report WTC 7's imminent collapse an hour in advance and BBC report that it had collapsed 25 minutes ahead of the fact?

What heating mechanism are you employing to justify the simultaneous, symetrical in 360 degrees, uniform collapse of the towers?

We've already ruled out the two Strawmen of Jet Fuel, and Paper Fires.

What removed the underlying support columns which, at the very least, should have severely limited the rate of collapse?

At this point in the game I have little time for shills, and brain dead apologists seeking to avoid the logical conclusions i.e., that the buildings were brought down intententionally and that the aircraft crashed into the buildings were merely cover to obscure the actual mechanisms by which the buildings were intentionally collapsed.

911 was a PsyOp to provide justification for war and the evisceration of the Bill of Rights.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-10-28   14:39:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Original_Intent, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, mininggold (#68)

were designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707 which is very close in size to the aircraft that did hit the towers.

No, the 707 is much smaller. Sorry. If you can't get that right what can I say about the rest of the assertions made?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/b767.htm#at

The 767-200 provides several advantages over the 707. Because of its wide-body configuration, the 767 offers 50 percent more floor space and nearly twice the volume of the 707. The 767 can carry a heavier payload, has a greater range and flies higher than the 707.

"We have oil. We have Putin - all that Russians think they need." - Vladimir Dubin, senior researcher at the Moscow-based Levada Centre.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   14:59:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Destro, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, all (#69)

There is only one minor problem with your misleading argument - the facts. As the following excerpt illustrates:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Other engineers are on public record as saying that the World Trade Center would even survive an impact of the larger and faster Boeing 747.

The maximum takeoff weight for a Boeing 707-320B is 336,000 pounds.
The maximum takeoff weight for a Boeing 767-200ER is 395,000 pounds.

The wingspan of a Boeing 707 is 146 feet.
The wingspan of a Boeing 767 is 156 feet.

The length of a Boeing 707 is 153 feet.
The length of a Boeing 767 is 159 feet.

The Boeing 707 could carry 23,000 gallons of fuel.
The Boeing 767 could carry 23,980 gallons of fuel.

However, the actual aircraft involved in the World Trade Center impacts were only flying from Boston to Los Angeles, and consequently, would have been nowhere near fully fueled on takeoff (the Boeing 767 has a maximum range of 7,600 miles (12,220 km)). The aircraft would have carried just enough fuel for the trip together with some safety factor. Remember, that carrying excess fuel means higher fuel bills and less paying passengers. The aircraft would have also burnt some fuel between Boston and New York.

Government sources estimate that each of the Boeing 767's had approximately 10,000 gallons of unused fuel on board at the times of impact.

To give you some idea how much jet fuel this is, an 11 foot by 11 foot by 11 foot tank contains 10,000 gallons (1 US gallon = 0.13368 cubic feet). So a novel way of destroying high-rise buildings is to load an 11 foot by 11 foot by 11 foot glass tank of jet fuel into a Ryder truck, drive it into the ground floor lobby, break the glass, set light to the fuel and walk away, the high-rise should collapse in about an hour (after all, 12,000 gallons of diesel was all it took to bring down WTC 7). Look mom, no explosives needed. ..."

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-10-28   15:09:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Destro (#69)

I just want to know if the gov has made the retrofitting of similiar built structures a priority as it has been known to do in the past with various entities when they unexpectedly fail and there is a large loss of life.

mininggold  posted on  2009-10-28   15:10:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: belmontconservative, Kamala (#63)

I would bet

In which engineering reference do I find "I would bet"?

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-10-28   15:38:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Lysander_Spooner (#0)

Magnetic forces to blame for 9/11 tower collapse

No, no, no. It was because the terrierists ate a lot of spicy food the night before, and that extra gas blew the towers apart.

Hell, it's about as good of an explanation as the one presented here.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-10-28   15:39:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Original_Intent, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, mininggold (#70)

Yea, they are not the same - not even remotely close. That is like saying a boxer who is 5'5" is close to body mass of a boxer who is 6' or even 5'9"

Plug those numbers in an equation that calculates mass x velocity makes nonsense of you assertion that these airplanes are basically the same.

Kinetic energy = 1/2 x mass x velocity x velocity (K.E.=1/2 x m x v 2).

Force=Mass x Acceleration

Let us pretend mass is 100 and velocity is 500 result = 50,000

Let us increase mass by a little 125 and velocity stays at 500 result = 62,500

That tells me increase in mass even slightly increases kinetic force by large degrees if speed remains the same.

"We have oil. We have Putin - all that Russians think they need." - Vladimir Dubin, senior researcher at the Moscow-based Levada Centre.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   15:40:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: mininggold (#71)

I just want to know if the gov has made the retrofitting of similiar built structures a priority as it has been known to do in the past with various entities when they unexpectedly fail and there is a large loss of life.

And cause the business community to spend money? The airlines did not want to upgrade cockpit doors for safety and lobbied against it - mostly Republicans took their blood money but some Dems did too.

"We have oil. We have Putin - all that Russians think they need." - Vladimir Dubin, senior researcher at the Moscow-based Levada Centre.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   15:42:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: mininggold, Destro, all (#71)

I just want to know if the gov has made the retrofitting of similiar built structures a priority as it has been known to do in the past with various entities when they unexpectedly fail and there is a large loss of life.

It would appear that THE CRICKETS HAVE LANDED.

Related would be to ask where the Forensic Engineering Examination of the collapsed structure (standard when there is a loss of life) was published?

Why did the Bush Junta stand adamantly opposed for nearly a year to an official examination of the events of 911?

Why, when one was finally allowed, was it limited to exploring ONLY intelligence failures?

Why has the Chairman of that Commission's Report distanced himself from it saying that the government routinely and repeatedly lied to the commission?

There are considerably more valid questions than answers. That those questions remain devoid of official inspection is in and of itself a curious datum.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-10-28   15:44:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Original_Intent, mininggold (#76)

It would appear that THE CRICKETS HAVE LANDED.

I assume by crickets you meant the sound of crickets because I was not responding. Beforse your post I already posted a reply @ #75. No crickets involved. This is not a conversation we are having across the lunch table to expect a real time response.

"We have oil. We have Putin - all that Russians think they need." - Vladimir Dubin, senior researcher at the Moscow-based Levada Centre.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   15:48:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: Destro, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, all (#74)

Nice Strawman.

Skyscrapers are not boxers.

Neither are human bodies made of high grade structural steel.

You have totally avoided the point of the data.

The difference in size between the type of aircraft allegedly used as a missle was nearly insignificant compared to the specs for the kind of aircraft the building was designed to withstand an impact from.

Independent engineers have asserted that the structures were robust enough to withstand an impact from a much larger and faster 747.

All you are doing is attempting to obscure the data. You are hoist by your own Petard.

You are a disinformation shill identified as such by your methods and tactics.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-10-28   15:51:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: Destro, mininggold, Kamala, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, all (#75)

I just want to know if the gov has made the retrofitting of similiar built structures a priority as it has been known to do in the past with various entities when they unexpectedly fail and there is a large loss of life.

And cause the business community to spend money? The airlines did not want to upgrade cockpit doors for safety and lobbied against it - mostly Republicans took their blood money but some Dems did too.

You are avoiding a perfectly valid question.

The correct, and honest, response is "Yes or No"?

I'll even repeat mininggold's question for you:

I just want to know if the gov has made the retrofitting of similiar built structures a priority as it has been known to do in the past with various entities when they unexpectedly fail and there is a large loss of life.

To which I will append my relevant related questions:

Related would be to ask where the Forensic Engineering Examination of the collapsed structure (standard when there is a loss of life) was published?

Why did the Bush Junta stand adamantly opposed for nearly a year to an official examination of the events of 911?

Why, when one was finally allowed, was it limited to exploring ONLY intelligence failures?

Why has the Chairman of that Commission's Report distanced himself from it saying that the government routinely and repeatedly lied to the commission?

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-10-28   15:56:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Original_Intent, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, mininggold (#78)

The difference in size between the type of aircraft allegedly used as a missle was nearly insignificant compared to the specs for the kind of aircraft the building was designed to withstand an impact from.

I just demonstrated that a small increase of mass changes greatly the force of impact so your statement is wrong.

"We have oil. We have Putin - all that Russians think they need." - Vladimir Dubin, senior researcher at the Moscow-based Levada Centre.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   15:56:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Original_Intent, mininggold, Kamala, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine (#79)

The correct, and honest, response is "Yes or No"?

Really? I can respond as I like. I know of no changes to building codes in America but that does not mean non happened.

America is run by oligarchs who constantly want to eliminate or water down any safety regulations that they have to pay for and so lobby their pro business cronies - mostly Republicans to eliminate such rules - see my cockpit analogy. Hell, a book/movie called the 'Towering Inferno' in the 70s was all about how they were building sky scrapers to be death traps so it is very possible they knew when they built them they were unsafe buildings. .

How can you get fire fighting equipment that far up? Rescue people? You can't.

"We have oil. We have Putin - all that Russians think they need." - Vladimir Dubin, senior researcher at the Moscow-based Levada Centre.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   16:03:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: Destro, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, mininggold, Kamala, all (#80)

I just demonstrated that a small increase of mass changes greatly the force of impact so your statement is wrong.

No you posted a strawman purporting to prove a known physical principle.

However, this is also a matter of scale.

The difference between a fly and a gnat hitting a windshield is not significant they both become icky goo.

The difference between an arrow and a crossbow bolt hitting a screen door (which is basically what the facade of the towers was - but on a very large scale) is the same. They both penetrate the screen and the house remains standing.

By throwing numbers around you hope to obscure the matter of scale and whether the small differences between the mass of a 767 and a 707 is significant.

You have made an unproven assertion you have not proved that assertion.

I could further demolish your argument but am not inclined to waste my time.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-10-28   16:10:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: Destro, Original_Intent, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, mininggold (#74)

Plug those numbers in an equation that calculates mass x velocity makes nonsense of you assertion that these airplanes are basically the same.

Kinetic energy = 1/2 x mass x velocity x velocity (K.E.=1/2 x m x v 2).

Force=Mass x Acceleration

Let us pretend mass is 100 and velocity is 500 result = 50,000

Let us increase mass by a little 125 and velocity stays at 500 result = 62,500

Did you even consider the fact that the aircraft was carrying less than half the fuel it could carry?

You are assuming the maximum load of fuel, well ok, let's look at that for a minute...

A gallon of jet fuel is about 6.5 pounds.

If we are talking about only 10,000 gallons of fuel out of a possible 23,980 gallons on the 767, then that's 13,980 gallons less than max.

So, 6.5 lbs/gal * 13,980 gallons = 90,870 lbs.

Considering the towers were supposed to handle a 707 with FULL tanks, the weight of the 707 remains at 336,000 lbs.

The max weight of the 767 is 395,000 lbs., take away the weight of the fuel that wasn't onboard, we have 395,000 lbs. - 90,870 lbs. = 304,130 lbs.

That means the 767 was (336,000 lbs. - 304,130 lbs.) = 31,870 lbs. lighter than the 707 that the towers were designed to handle.

Your example for F=ma is flawed by the way, you are showing velocity in your example, not accelation, which would be rate of change of velocity.

Kinetic energy is as you say, E=1/2mv2

Thus, for a velocity of 500 fps and a mass of 100 lbs., the equation would become;

E= 100/2 * (500 * 500) = 12,500,000 foot pounds.

For a mass of 125, the equation becomes;

E= 125/2 * (500 * 500) = 15,625,000 foot pounds.

So here we have an increase of 3.125 million foot pounds. Ok.

Now, look at the actual numbers. 500 fps is a bit low, where if the plane was traveling at 500 mph the speed in feet per second is 733 fps, so let's use that.

If there is 31,870 lbs. less mass, then the difference in kinetic energy is as follows;

E = 31,780 lbs/2 * (733 ft/s * 733 ft/s) = 8,537,522,210 foot pounds

SO, the 767 aircraft that struck the WTC had approximately 8.5 BILLION foot pounds LESS kinetic energy than a 707 would have had.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-10-28   16:15:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: Destro, Original_Intent, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, mininggold (#80)

I just demonstrated that a small increase of mass changes greatly the force of impact so your statement is wrong.

As I just demonstrated, the 767 had LESS mass than the fully loaded 707. I also showed that your example was a bit flawed, where you were using a force equation to show kinetic energy, and calculating that incorrectly as you were using velocity rather than acceleration.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-10-28   16:22:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: FormerLurker, Original_Intent, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, mininggold (#83)

The mass of the the two different airplanes alone produces significant differences in kinetic energy outcomes if fuel was factored to zero.

That is all you or I can say without seeing the original test results. I was refuting the suggestion that they differences between plane models were slight when in reality every square foot of mass magnifies the kinetic force at speed. It is not the same. The boxer analogy is correct.

"We have oil. We have Putin - all that Russians think they need." - Vladimir Dubin, senior researcher at the Moscow-based Levada Centre.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   16:30:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: Destro, mininggold, Kamala, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, all (#81)

The correct, and honest, response is "Yes or No"?

Really? I can respond as I like. I know of no changes to building codes in America but that does not mean non happened.

The rest of your post is irrelevant to the question.

Repeating, for reference, mininggold's question for you:

I just want to know if the gov has made the retrofitting of similiar built structures a priority as it has been known to do in the past with various entities when they unexpectedly fail and there is a large loss of life.

Your answer translated into quibble free plain English is: NO to your knowledge NO changes were made to any building code or structure as a result of the collapse of the towers as chronicled in the "Official Conspiracy Theory®".

Where was the Forensic Engineering Examination and Report published?

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-10-28   16:36:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: Destro (#85) (Edited)

The mass of the the two different airplanes alone produces significant differences in kinetic energy outcomes if fuel was factored to zero.

Thing is, the planners were calculating for a fully fueled 707, and the 767 was not flying without fuel, it had 10,000 lbs. out of a possible 23,980 lbs.

I was refuting the suggestion that they differences between plane models were slight when in reality every square foot of mass magnifies the kinetic force at speed.

Square footage relates to area, not mass. Mass would be a function of the density of that square footage. Regardless, the mass is known for the worst case scenario, which is max takeoff weight. Besides only carrying half of the possible fuel load, it is doubtful the plane was fully packed to the brim with cargo...

So the net outcome is that the 767 aircraft was MUCH lighter than the 707 taken into consideration of the WTC design, thus, struck with much less force than which the towers were designed to withstand.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-10-28   16:42:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: Original_Intent, mininggold, Kamala, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine (#86)

Your answer translated into quibble free plain English is: NO to your knowledge NO changes were made to any building code or structure as a result of the collapse of the towers as chronicled in the "Official Conspiracy Theory®".

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Upgrading+building+codes+post+9%2F11.+(Insiders+Outlook)- a0105369952

Following the New York City and Washington, D.C. attacks many voices uttered the demise of future skyscrapers of great height. The argument was that such towers presented an inviting target for terrorist attack. Another argument, financial in nature, was that developers would never be able to find companies willing to risk their employees' lives by occupying such towers and risking future attack of similar scale.

Keep in mind that most experts say that there is no modern skyscraper designed to withstand the devastating effects of the impact and subsequent explosions.

Various engineering committees will issue a host of position papers by year-end addressing issues of safety and security for new structures.

Upgrading structural materials will provide more fire resistance with the use of reinforced concrete cores or concrete-encased steel exterior columns.

"We have oil. We have Putin - all that Russians think they need." - Vladimir Dubin, senior researcher at the Moscow-based Levada Centre.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   16:48:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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