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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: Magnetic forces to blame for 9/11 tower collapse
Source: The Independent
URL Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s ... 911-tower-collapse-924509.html
Published: Jul 24, 2009
Author: Steve Connor
Post Date: 2009-07-24 16:54:32 by Lysander_Spooner
Keywords: None
Views: 4980
Comments: 119

Magnetic forces to blame for 9/11 tower collapse

By Steve Connor

Wednesday, 10 September 2008

Scientists can finally explain why the Twin Towers collapsed on September 11, despite the temperature of the fires being well below the 1,500C melting point of the steel girders holding up the buildings.

The discovery that unusual magnetic forces within the girders made them weak at temperatures of about 500C explains away the conspiracy theories that have spread like wildfire since the disaster.

Sergei Dudarev, of the UK Atomic Energy Agency, found that steel loses its strength above 500C because its molecules undergo a physical transition from one state to another due to magnetic fluctuations. "The steel didn't melt, it just became soft. It is an unusual state and the temperatures in the Twin Towers were high enough to cause it because the thermal insulation was knocked off the girders through the impact with the aircraft," he said.

"Understanding how materials behave means we can find the right 'medicine' to make steel stronger at high temperatures... and if our work can be used for other applications, such as safeguarding tall buildings against disasters, so much the better," he said.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 86.

#5. To: Lysander_Spooner (#0)

It's not an unusual state. Any blacksmith can tell you that when heated at temperatures well below the level produced in the WTC fires, steel and iron weaken and become malleable. Some conspiracy nuts think that the only way steel can weaken is if it's heated to complete liquification; they were only demonstrating their own ignorance.

And, by the way, some nut started the story of a pool of molten steel at Ground Zero, still liquid days after the collapse. Simply impossible. Even a nuclear explosion wouldn't have that effect. Nobody did a metallic analysis that showed this was steel or any other normal metal. What was seen was a greyish puddle of a variety of fluids, including water, paint, melted plastic, various industrial liquids, that had mixed together from the fire, collapse and fire fighting efforts at the WTC.

Shoonra  posted on  2009-07-24   23:58:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Shoonra (#5)

Any backyard griller can tell you that their grills never collapse to the ground at free fall speed despite grilling all day.

Government stooges like you have a special place reserved for you in hell.

RickyJ  posted on  2009-07-29   4:32:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: RickyJ (#44)

Any backyard griller can tell you that their grills never collapse to the ground at free fall speed despite grilling all day.

Well, to be fair, that's not a good analogy. Backyard grills are built to withstand that kind of heat without collapsing. The heat is not near the melting poing of a grill.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-10-28   12:29:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: SonOfLiberty (#48) (Edited)

Neither is the temperature of burning kerosene. In fact, burning charcoal burns at a much higher temperature that jet fuel does in an open flame burn at STP.

randge  posted on  2009-10-28   12:34:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: randge (#49)

You don't need to melt steel just heat it up enough for it to weaken. Like I said - why do they fireproof structural steel then? Insurance scam?

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   12:40:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Destro (#51)

You don't need to melt steel just heat it up enough for it to weaken

I have not seen convincing evidence that the steel in this building got anywhere near the 500°C claimed to cause the weakening spoken of above.

Sorry for your poor understanding of science.

I'm not a scientist or engineer, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe neither are you. I've studied physics and chemistry, so I'm not a complete dolt at these things. No reason to get personal here.

randge  posted on  2009-10-28   13:35:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: randge, Destro, TwentyTwelve, christine, all (#59)

You don't need to melt steel just heat it up enough for it to weaken

I have not seen convincing evidence that the steel in this building got anywhere near the 500°C claimed to cause the weakening spoken of above.

Sorry for your poor understanding of science.

I'm not a scientist or engineer, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe neither are you. I've studied physics and chemistry, so I'm not a complete dolt at these things. No reason to get personal here.

Oh, it is absolutely necessary for a shill to get personal. It is one of their primary tactics in avoiding facts and issues.

Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-10-28   14:02:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Original_Intent, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine (#61)

You don't need to melt steel just heat it up enough for it to weaken I have not seen convincing evidence that the steel in this building got anywhere near the 500°C claimed to cause the weakening spoken of above.

Also, citing evidence of high rise fires for buildings NOT built like the WTC was where the outer shell was part of the structure over a boxed frame construction and did NOT have a plane of that size fly into them as an apples to apples comparison is just not acceptable. I can't take it serious as a comparison. That is common sense.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   14:10:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: Destro, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, all (#62)

You don't need to melt steel just heat it up enough for it to weaken I have not seen convincing evidence that the steel in this building got anywhere near the 500°C claimed to cause the weakening spoken of above.

Also, citing evidence of high rise fires for buildings NOT built like the WTC was where the outer shell was part of the structure over a boxed frame construction and did NOT have a plane of that size fly into them as an apples to apples comparison is just not acceptable. I can't take it serious as a comparison. That is common sense.

As with all Strawman Arguments you leave out any data not accounted for in the "Official Conspiracy Theory®" i.e., that these particular buildings were designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707 which is very close in size to the aircraft that did hit the towers.

And did I adduce other fires into the argument? NO. So, you commit another related fallacy that of the Red Herring.

What kind of plane hit WTC 7?

Why did CNN report WTC 7's imminent collapse an hour in advance and BBC report that it had collapsed 25 minutes ahead of the fact?

What heating mechanism are you employing to justify the simultaneous, symetrical in 360 degrees, uniform collapse of the towers?

We've already ruled out the two Strawmen of Jet Fuel, and Paper Fires.

What removed the underlying support columns which, at the very least, should have severely limited the rate of collapse?

At this point in the game I have little time for shills, and brain dead apologists seeking to avoid the logical conclusions i.e., that the buildings were brought down intententionally and that the aircraft crashed into the buildings were merely cover to obscure the actual mechanisms by which the buildings were intentionally collapsed.

911 was a PsyOp to provide justification for war and the evisceration of the Bill of Rights.

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-10-28   14:39:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Original_Intent, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, mininggold (#68)

were designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707 which is very close in size to the aircraft that did hit the towers.

No, the 707 is much smaller. Sorry. If you can't get that right what can I say about the rest of the assertions made?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/b767.htm#at

The 767-200 provides several advantages over the 707. Because of its wide-body configuration, the 767 offers 50 percent more floor space and nearly twice the volume of the 707. The 767 can carry a heavier payload, has a greater range and flies higher than the 707.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   14:59:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Destro (#69)

I just want to know if the gov has made the retrofitting of similiar built structures a priority as it has been known to do in the past with various entities when they unexpectedly fail and there is a large loss of life.

mininggold  posted on  2009-10-28   15:10:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: mininggold (#71)

I just want to know if the gov has made the retrofitting of similiar built structures a priority as it has been known to do in the past with various entities when they unexpectedly fail and there is a large loss of life.

And cause the business community to spend money? The airlines did not want to upgrade cockpit doors for safety and lobbied against it - mostly Republicans took their blood money but some Dems did too.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   15:42:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: Destro, mininggold, Kamala, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, all (#75)

I just want to know if the gov has made the retrofitting of similiar built structures a priority as it has been known to do in the past with various entities when they unexpectedly fail and there is a large loss of life.

And cause the business community to spend money? The airlines did not want to upgrade cockpit doors for safety and lobbied against it - mostly Republicans took their blood money but some Dems did too.

You are avoiding a perfectly valid question.

The correct, and honest, response is "Yes or No"?

I'll even repeat mininggold's question for you:

I just want to know if the gov has made the retrofitting of similiar built structures a priority as it has been known to do in the past with various entities when they unexpectedly fail and there is a large loss of life.

To which I will append my relevant related questions:

Related would be to ask where the Forensic Engineering Examination of the collapsed structure (standard when there is a loss of life) was published?

Why did the Bush Junta stand adamantly opposed for nearly a year to an official examination of the events of 911?

Why, when one was finally allowed, was it limited to exploring ONLY intelligence failures?

Why has the Chairman of that Commission's Report distanced himself from it saying that the government routinely and repeatedly lied to the commission?

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-10-28   15:56:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Original_Intent, mininggold, Kamala, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine (#79)

The correct, and honest, response is "Yes or No"?

Really? I can respond as I like. I know of no changes to building codes in America but that does not mean non happened.

America is run by oligarchs who constantly want to eliminate or water down any safety regulations that they have to pay for and so lobby their pro business cronies - mostly Republicans to eliminate such rules - see my cockpit analogy. Hell, a book/movie called the 'Towering Inferno' in the 70s was all about how they were building sky scrapers to be death traps so it is very possible they knew when they built them they were unsafe buildings. .

How can you get fire fighting equipment that far up? Rescue people? You can't.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   16:03:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: Destro, mininggold, Kamala, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, all (#81)

The correct, and honest, response is "Yes or No"?

Really? I can respond as I like. I know of no changes to building codes in America but that does not mean non happened.

The rest of your post is irrelevant to the question.

Repeating, for reference, mininggold's question for you:

I just want to know if the gov has made the retrofitting of similiar built structures a priority as it has been known to do in the past with various entities when they unexpectedly fail and there is a large loss of life.

Your answer translated into quibble free plain English is: NO to your knowledge NO changes were made to any building code or structure as a result of the collapse of the towers as chronicled in the "Official Conspiracy Theory®".

Where was the Forensic Engineering Examination and Report published?

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-10-28   16:36:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 86.

#88. To: Original_Intent, mininggold, Kamala, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine (#86)

Your answer translated into quibble free plain English is: NO to your knowledge NO changes were made to any building code or structure as a result of the collapse of the towers as chronicled in the "Official Conspiracy Theory®".

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Upgrading+building+codes+post+9%2F11.+(Insiders+Outlook)- a0105369952

Following the New York City and Washington, D.C. attacks many voices uttered the demise of future skyscrapers of great height. The argument was that such towers presented an inviting target for terrorist attack. Another argument, financial in nature, was that developers would never be able to find companies willing to risk their employees' lives by occupying such towers and risking future attack of similar scale.

Keep in mind that most experts say that there is no modern skyscraper designed to withstand the devastating effects of the impact and subsequent explosions.

Various engineering committees will issue a host of position papers by year-end addressing issues of safety and security for new structures.

Upgrading structural materials will provide more fire resistance with the use of reinforced concrete cores or concrete-encased steel exterior columns.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28 16:48:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 86.

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