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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: Magnetic forces to blame for 9/11 tower collapse
Source: The Independent
URL Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s ... 911-tower-collapse-924509.html
Published: Jul 24, 2009
Author: Steve Connor
Post Date: 2009-07-24 16:54:32 by Lysander_Spooner
Keywords: None
Views: 1571
Comments: 119

Magnetic forces to blame for 9/11 tower collapse

By Steve Connor

Wednesday, 10 September 2008

Scientists can finally explain why the Twin Towers collapsed on September 11, despite the temperature of the fires being well below the 1,500C melting point of the steel girders holding up the buildings.

The discovery that unusual magnetic forces within the girders made them weak at temperatures of about 500C explains away the conspiracy theories that have spread like wildfire since the disaster.

Sergei Dudarev, of the UK Atomic Energy Agency, found that steel loses its strength above 500C because its molecules undergo a physical transition from one state to another due to magnetic fluctuations. "The steel didn't melt, it just became soft. It is an unusual state and the temperatures in the Twin Towers were high enough to cause it because the thermal insulation was knocked off the girders through the impact with the aircraft," he said.

"Understanding how materials behave means we can find the right 'medicine' to make steel stronger at high temperatures... and if our work can be used for other applications, such as safeguarding tall buildings against disasters, so much the better," he said.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 90.

#5. To: Lysander_Spooner (#0)

It's not an unusual state. Any blacksmith can tell you that when heated at temperatures well below the level produced in the WTC fires, steel and iron weaken and become malleable. Some conspiracy nuts think that the only way steel can weaken is if it's heated to complete liquification; they were only demonstrating their own ignorance.

And, by the way, some nut started the story of a pool of molten steel at Ground Zero, still liquid days after the collapse. Simply impossible. Even a nuclear explosion wouldn't have that effect. Nobody did a metallic analysis that showed this was steel or any other normal metal. What was seen was a greyish puddle of a variety of fluids, including water, paint, melted plastic, various industrial liquids, that had mixed together from the fire, collapse and fire fighting efforts at the WTC.

Shoonra  posted on  2009-07-24   23:58:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Shoonra (#5)

Any backyard griller can tell you that their grills never collapse to the ground at free fall speed despite grilling all day.

Government stooges like you have a special place reserved for you in hell.

RickyJ  posted on  2009-07-29   4:32:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: RickyJ (#44)

Any backyard griller can tell you that their grills never collapse to the ground at free fall speed despite grilling all day.

Well, to be fair, that's not a good analogy. Backyard grills are built to withstand that kind of heat without collapsing. The heat is not near the melting poing of a grill.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-10-28   12:29:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: SonOfLiberty (#48) (Edited)

Neither is the temperature of burning kerosene. In fact, burning charcoal burns at a much higher temperature that jet fuel does in an open flame burn at STP.

randge  posted on  2009-10-28   12:34:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: randge (#49)

You don't need to melt steel just heat it up enough for it to weaken. Like I said - why do they fireproof structural steel then? Insurance scam?

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   12:40:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Destro (#51)

You don't need to melt steel just heat it up enough for it to weaken

I have not seen convincing evidence that the steel in this building got anywhere near the 500°C claimed to cause the weakening spoken of above.

Sorry for your poor understanding of science.

I'm not a scientist or engineer, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe neither are you. I've studied physics and chemistry, so I'm not a complete dolt at these things. No reason to get personal here.

randge  posted on  2009-10-28   13:35:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: randge, Destro, TwentyTwelve, christine, all (#59)

You don't need to melt steel just heat it up enough for it to weaken

I have not seen convincing evidence that the steel in this building got anywhere near the 500°C claimed to cause the weakening spoken of above.

Sorry for your poor understanding of science.

I'm not a scientist or engineer, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe neither are you. I've studied physics and chemistry, so I'm not a complete dolt at these things. No reason to get personal here.

Oh, it is absolutely necessary for a shill to get personal. It is one of their primary tactics in avoiding facts and issues.

Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-10-28   14:02:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Original_Intent, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine (#61)

You don't need to melt steel just heat it up enough for it to weaken I have not seen convincing evidence that the steel in this building got anywhere near the 500°C claimed to cause the weakening spoken of above.

Also, citing evidence of high rise fires for buildings NOT built like the WTC was where the outer shell was part of the structure over a boxed frame construction and did NOT have a plane of that size fly into them as an apples to apples comparison is just not acceptable. I can't take it serious as a comparison. That is common sense.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   14:10:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: Destro, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, all (#62)

You don't need to melt steel just heat it up enough for it to weaken I have not seen convincing evidence that the steel in this building got anywhere near the 500°C claimed to cause the weakening spoken of above.

Also, citing evidence of high rise fires for buildings NOT built like the WTC was where the outer shell was part of the structure over a boxed frame construction and did NOT have a plane of that size fly into them as an apples to apples comparison is just not acceptable. I can't take it serious as a comparison. That is common sense.

As with all Strawman Arguments you leave out any data not accounted for in the "Official Conspiracy Theory®" i.e., that these particular buildings were designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707 which is very close in size to the aircraft that did hit the towers.

And did I adduce other fires into the argument? NO. So, you commit another related fallacy that of the Red Herring.

What kind of plane hit WTC 7?

Why did CNN report WTC 7's imminent collapse an hour in advance and BBC report that it had collapsed 25 minutes ahead of the fact?

What heating mechanism are you employing to justify the simultaneous, symetrical in 360 degrees, uniform collapse of the towers?

We've already ruled out the two Strawmen of Jet Fuel, and Paper Fires.

What removed the underlying support columns which, at the very least, should have severely limited the rate of collapse?

At this point in the game I have little time for shills, and brain dead apologists seeking to avoid the logical conclusions i.e., that the buildings were brought down intententionally and that the aircraft crashed into the buildings were merely cover to obscure the actual mechanisms by which the buildings were intentionally collapsed.

911 was a PsyOp to provide justification for war and the evisceration of the Bill of Rights.

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-10-28   14:39:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Original_Intent, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, mininggold (#68)

were designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707 which is very close in size to the aircraft that did hit the towers.

No, the 707 is much smaller. Sorry. If you can't get that right what can I say about the rest of the assertions made?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/b767.htm#at

The 767-200 provides several advantages over the 707. Because of its wide-body configuration, the 767 offers 50 percent more floor space and nearly twice the volume of the 707. The 767 can carry a heavier payload, has a greater range and flies higher than the 707.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   14:59:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Destro, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, all (#69)

There is only one minor problem with your misleading argument - the facts. As the following excerpt illustrates:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Other engineers are on public record as saying that the World Trade Center would even survive an impact of the larger and faster Boeing 747.

The maximum takeoff weight for a Boeing 707-320B is 336,000 pounds.
The maximum takeoff weight for a Boeing 767-200ER is 395,000 pounds.

The wingspan of a Boeing 707 is 146 feet.
The wingspan of a Boeing 767 is 156 feet.

The length of a Boeing 707 is 153 feet.
The length of a Boeing 767 is 159 feet.

The Boeing 707 could carry 23,000 gallons of fuel.
The Boeing 767 could carry 23,980 gallons of fuel.

However, the actual aircraft involved in the World Trade Center impacts were only flying from Boston to Los Angeles, and consequently, would have been nowhere near fully fueled on takeoff (the Boeing 767 has a maximum range of 7,600 miles (12,220 km)). The aircraft would have carried just enough fuel for the trip together with some safety factor. Remember, that carrying excess fuel means higher fuel bills and less paying passengers. The aircraft would have also burnt some fuel between Boston and New York.

Government sources estimate that each of the Boeing 767's had approximately 10,000 gallons of unused fuel on board at the times of impact.

To give you some idea how much jet fuel this is, an 11 foot by 11 foot by 11 foot tank contains 10,000 gallons (1 US gallon = 0.13368 cubic feet). So a novel way of destroying high-rise buildings is to load an 11 foot by 11 foot by 11 foot glass tank of jet fuel into a Ryder truck, drive it into the ground floor lobby, break the glass, set light to the fuel and walk away, the high-rise should collapse in about an hour (after all, 12,000 gallons of diesel was all it took to bring down WTC 7). Look mom, no explosives needed. ..."

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-10-28   15:09:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Original_Intent, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, mininggold (#70)

Yea, they are not the same - not even remotely close. That is like saying a boxer who is 5'5" is close to body mass of a boxer who is 6' or even 5'9"

Plug those numbers in an equation that calculates mass x velocity makes nonsense of you assertion that these airplanes are basically the same.

Kinetic energy = 1/2 x mass x velocity x velocity (K.E.=1/2 x m x v 2).

Force=Mass x Acceleration

Let us pretend mass is 100 and velocity is 500 result = 50,000

Let us increase mass by a little 125 and velocity stays at 500 result = 62,500

That tells me increase in mass even slightly increases kinetic force by large degrees if speed remains the same.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28   15:40:28 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: Destro, Original_Intent, randge, TwentyTwelve, christine, mininggold (#74)

Plug those numbers in an equation that calculates mass x velocity makes nonsense of you assertion that these airplanes are basically the same.

Kinetic energy = 1/2 x mass x velocity x velocity (K.E.=1/2 x m x v 2).

Force=Mass x Acceleration

Let us pretend mass is 100 and velocity is 500 result = 50,000

Let us increase mass by a little 125 and velocity stays at 500 result = 62,500

Did you even consider the fact that the aircraft was carrying less than half the fuel it could carry?

You are assuming the maximum load of fuel, well ok, let's look at that for a minute...

A gallon of jet fuel is about 6.5 pounds.

If we are talking about only 10,000 gallons of fuel out of a possible 23,980 gallons on the 767, then that's 13,980 gallons less than max.

So, 6.5 lbs/gal * 13,980 gallons = 90,870 lbs.

Considering the towers were supposed to handle a 707 with FULL tanks, the weight of the 707 remains at 336,000 lbs.

The max weight of the 767 is 395,000 lbs., take away the weight of the fuel that wasn't onboard, we have 395,000 lbs. - 90,870 lbs. = 304,130 lbs.

That means the 767 was (336,000 lbs. - 304,130 lbs.) = 31,870 lbs. lighter than the 707 that the towers were designed to handle.

Your example for F=ma is flawed by the way, you are showing velocity in your example, not accelation, which would be rate of change of velocity.

Kinetic energy is as you say, E=1/2mv2

Thus, for a velocity of 500 fps and a mass of 100 lbs., the equation would become;

E= 100/2 * (500 * 500) = 12,500,000 foot pounds.

For a mass of 125, the equation becomes;

E= 125/2 * (500 * 500) = 15,625,000 foot pounds.

So here we have an increase of 3.125 million foot pounds. Ok.

Now, look at the actual numbers. 500 fps is a bit low, where if the plane was traveling at 500 mph the speed in feet per second is 733 fps, so let's use that.

If there is 31,870 lbs. less mass, then the difference in kinetic energy is as follows;

E = 31,780 lbs/2 * (733 ft/s * 733 ft/s) = 8,537,522,210 foot pounds

SO, the 767 aircraft that struck the WTC had approximately 8.5 BILLION foot pounds LESS kinetic energy than a 707 would have had.

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-10-28   16:15:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: FormerLurker (#83)

Neatly done.

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-10-28   16:51:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: Original_Intent (#89)

Neatly done.

Thanks. It's basic high school math and simple physics pretty much.

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-10-28   16:54:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 90.

#96. To: FormerLurker, Original_Intent (#90)

You had to jigger the results for the outcome though over reporting the fuel and speed used in tests for the first airplane and under reporting the fuel for the 9/11 airplane to get the results. All I was demonstrating is that a little bit of mass more affects the kinetic energy substantially more.

Here is the data parameters used for the first test crash and not your numbers.

http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=leslie_robertson

Between September 3, 2001 and September 7, 2001: WTC Structural Engineer Says Trade Center Designed for 707 Crashing Into It

The Boeing 707 was the largest in use when the towers were designed. Robertson conducted a study in late 1964, to calculate the effect of a 707 weighing 263,000 pounds and traveling at 180 mph crashing into one of the towers. He concluded that the tower would remain standing. However, no official report of his study has ever surfaced publicly. [GLANZ AND LIPTON, 2004, PP. 138-139, 366] A previous analysis, carried out early in 1964, calculated that the towers would handle the impact of a 707 traveling at 600 mph without collapsing (see February 27, 1993). In 2002, though, Robertson will write, “To the best of our knowledge, little was known about the effects of a fire from such an aircraft, and no designs were prepared for that circumstance.” [ROBERTSON, 3/2002]

The planes that hit the WTC on 9/11 are 767s, which are almost 20 percent heavier than 707s. [SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, 10/9/2001; NEW YORKER, 11/19/2001]

Destro  posted on  2009-10-28 17:14:02 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 90.

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