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War, War, War
See other War, War, War Articles

Title: Remains of Pilot Missing 18 Years in Iraq Found
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=8232398
Published: Aug 2, 2009
Author: PAULINE JELINEK
Post Date: 2009-08-02 08:26:36 by Jethro Tull
Keywords: None
Views: 716
Comments: 68

PHOTO: Michael
This image provided by the U.S. Navy is an Oct. 11, 2002 photo of Navy Capt. Michael "Scott"... Expand
This image provided by the U.S. Navy is an Oct. 11, 2002 photo of Navy Capt. Michael "Scott" Speicher, the F/A-18 "Hornet" pilot who was shot down over Iraq on the opening night of Operation Desert Storm in Jan. 1991. The Pentagon initially declared him killed, but uncertainty led officials over the years to change his official status a number of times to "missing in action" and "missing-captured." (AP Photo/US Navy Photo) Collapse
(US Navy Photo/AP)

The remains of the first American lost in the Persian Gulf War have been found in Iraq, the military said Sunday, after struggling for nearly two decades with the question of whether he was dead or alive.

The Armed Forces Institute of Pathology has positively identified the remains of Navy Capt. Michael "Scott" Speicher, whose disappearance has bedeviled investigators since his fighter jet was shot down over the Iraq desert on the first night of the 1991 war.

The top Navy officer said the discovery illustrates the military's commitment to bring its troops home.

"Our Navy will never give up looking for a shipmate, regardless of how long or how difficult that search may be," said Adm. Gary Roughead, Chief of Naval Operations. "We owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to Captain Speicher and his family for the sacrifice they have made for our nation and the example of strength they have set for all of us."

The Pentagon initially declared Speicher killed, but uncertainty 52; and the lack of remains 52; led officials over the years to change his official status a number of times to "missing in action" and later "missing-captured."

Family spokeswoman Cindy Laquidara said relatives learned on Saturday that Speicher's remains had been found.

adsonar_placementId=1280789;adsonar_pid=43749;adsonar_ps=-1;adsonar_zw=165;adsonar_zh=220;adsonar_jv='ads.adsonar.com';

"The family's proud of the way the Defense Department continued on with our request" to not abandon the search for the downed pilot, she said. "We will be bringing him home."

Laquidara said the family would have another statement after being briefed by the defense officials, but she didn't know when that would be.

After years, the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq finally gave investigators the chance to search inside Iraq. And it led to a number of leads, including what some believed were the initials "MSS" scratched into the wall of an Iraqi prison.

The search also led investigators to excavate a potential grave site in Baghdad in 2005, track down Iraqis said to have information about Speicher and make numerous other inquiries in what officials say has been an exhaustive search. (3 images)

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#28. To: Cynicom (#22)

.MIA...and to my knowledge not a dime was ever spent looking for his remains. Shot down on their first bombing run over North Korea.

You gave the reason why in your own post. He went missing over North Korea,and we have never been allowed to go there to look for MIA's. There was nothing to spend a dime on.

The US pilots and SF people who went missing in Laos,Cambodia,and North Vietnam weren't looked for or found until years after the VN war ended and we got permission to go into those countries to look.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   14:04:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Cynicom (#1)

Speicher was a Jew.

A Jew in the military? Must have had a lot of white blood in him.

There's no place better thanTurtle Island.

Turtle  posted on  2009-08-02   14:06:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: sneakypete (#24)

DESERT STORM U.S./ALLIED MISSING IN ACTION OR CAPTURED January 17, 1991 LT.COL. DONNIE R. HOLLAND — U.S. Air Force, age 42, Bastrop, Louisiana MAJ. THOMAS F. KORITZ — U.S. Air Force, age 37, Rochelle, Illinois COL. DAVID WILLIAM EBERLY — U.S. Air Force, age 43, Goldsboro, North Carolina MAJ. THOMAS EDWARD GRIFFITH, JR. — U.S. Air Force, age 34, Goldsboro, North Carolina LT.CDR. MICHAEL SCOTT SPEICHER — U.S. Navy, age 33, Jacksonville, Florida

January 18, 1991 LT. ROBERT WETZEL — U.S. Navy, age 30, Metuchen, New Jersey LT. JEFFREY NORTON ZAUN — U.S. Navy, age 28, Cherry Hill, New Jersey LT. WILLIAM THOMAS "TOM" COSTEN — U.S. Navy, age 27, St. Louis, Missouri LT. CHARLIE TURNER — U.S. Navy, age 29, Richfield, Minnesota

January 19 LT.COL. CLIFFORD M. ACREE — U.S. Marine Corps, age 29, Oceanside, California CWO GUY L. HUNTER, JR. — U.S. Marine Corps, age 46, Camp Pendleton, California CAPT. HARRY MICHAEL ROBERTS — U.S. Air Force, age 30, Savannah, Georgia MAJ. JEFFREY SCOTT TICE — U.S. Air Force, age 35, East Rockhill, Pennsylvania

January 21 LT. LAWRENCE RANDOLPH SLADE — U.S. Navy, age 26, Norfolk, Virginia

January 28, 1991 CAPT. MICHAEL C. BERRYMAN — U.S. Marine Corps, age 28, Yuma, Arizona

January 30 SPEC. DAVID LOCKETT — U.S. Army, age 23, Bessemer, Alabama MELISSA A. RATHBUN-NEALY — U.S. Army, age 20, Newaygo, Michigan

January 30 STAFF SERGEANT THOMAS CLIFFORD BLAND, JR. — U.S. Air Force, age 26, Fort Walton Beach, Florida STAFF SERGEANT JOHN P. BLESSINGER — U.S. Air Force, age 33, Fort Walton Beach, Florida SENIOR MASTER SERGEANT PAUL G. BEUGE — U.S. Air Force, age 43, Mary Esther, Florida SERGEANT BARRY M. CLARK — U.S. Air Force, age 26, Hurlburt Field, Florida CAPTAIN ARTHUR GALVAN — U.S. Air Force, age 33, Navarre, Florida CAPTAIN WILLIAM D. GRIMM — U.S. Air Force, age 28, Hurlburt Field, Florida STAFF SERGEANT TIMOTHY R. HARRISON — U.S. Air Force, age 31, Ft. Walton Beach, Florida TECHNICAL SERGEANT ROBERT K. HODGES — U.S. Air Force, age 28, Hurlburt Field, Florida SERGEANT DAMON V. KANUHA — U.S. Air Force, age 28 MASTER SERGEANT JOHN B. MAY II — U.S. Air Force, age 40, Fort Walton Beach, Florida STAFF SERGEANT JOHN L. OELSCHLAGER — U.S. Air Force, age 28, Niceville, Florida STAFF SERGEANT MARK J. SCHMAUSS — U.S. Air Force, age 30, Hurlburt Field, Florida CAPTAIN DIXON L. WALTERS, JR. — U.S. Air Force, age 29, Navarre Beach, Florida MAJOR PAUL J. WEAVER — U.S. Air Force, age 34, Alamosa, Colorado

February 3 1 LT. JORGE I. ARTEAGA — U.S. Air Force, age 26, Trumbull, Connecticut 1LT. ERIC D. HEDEEN — U.S. Air Force, age 27, Malaga, Washington CAPT. JON JEFFREY OLSON — U.S. Air Force, age 27, Blytheville, Arkansas

abraxas  posted on  2009-08-02   14:06:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Cynicom (#15)

sorry to hear that.

Glory to God in the highest, and Peace to His people on Earth.
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2009-08-02   14:10:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: abraxas (#23)

No Sneaky, go take a look here: http://www.usvetdsp.com/gulfwar.htm

This site lists the MIA/POW by name and a brief entry on what happened to them in Desert Shield and Dessert Storm.

Yes,but your link only covers half the story. None of those men are still missing,or were still missing after the war ended. That's what makes them and their cases different than SPEICHER.

If you go to the link below you can see their names listed as either returnees,or remains recovered.

http://www.pownetwork.org/gulf/index_gulf_war.htm

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   14:25:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: sneakypete (#32)

Yes,but your link only covers half the story. None of those men are still missing,or were still missing after the war ended. That's what makes them and their cases different than SPEICHER.

Thank you Sneaky.

What about the dozen or so who have "Body NOT recovered" status tags. How is it that their status changes from MIA?

abraxas  posted on  2009-08-02   14:31:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: sneakypete (#28)

Pete...

Records show 4167 bodies returned from North Korea, due joint North Korean/American efforts, there are still 417 unaccounted for.

Cynicom  posted on  2009-08-02   14:36:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: abraxas (#26)

THOMAS R. ADAMS, JR. — U.S. Marine Corps, age 21, Baton Rouge Parish Louisiana

ADAMS, THOMAS R. JR. Returnee

GARY S. DILLON — U.S. Marine Corps, age 29, Stark County, Ohio DILLON, GARY S. Body NOT recovered

KEVIN R. DOLVIN — U.S. Marine Corps, age 29, DuBose County, Illinois Dolvin,Kevin R. body not recovered.

WILLIAM D. CRONIN, JR. — U.S. Marine Corps, age 29, Merrimack County, New Hampshire Cronin,William D Jr body not recovered.

The first man mentioned about is listed as a returnee when the war ended. He is not and never was a MIA.

The last three men mentioned above were crewmen on one of the helicopters mentioned below that were lost at sea. When you are lost at sea you are really lost and there will be no body recovery. These men haven't been treading water the last 19 years. They are dead and have been declared dead ever since the search for survivors ended.

(excerpt from official report) The two helicopters disappeared from radar and failed to respond to radio calls during the training mission. Searches revealed no sign of the aircraft of its crew, and all were declared missing at sea.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   14:41:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: sneakypete (#28)

Remains of American MIA's Found in North Korea

Remains believed to be those of American soldiers missing in action from the Korean War have been recovered by two teams of United States specialists and will be repatriated to U.S. control at Yongsan Military Compound in Seoul on Oct. 15.

A more precise number will be determined in follow-on forensic examinations.

The repatriation marks the fifth and final remains recovery operation in North Korea this year.

Since 1996, 32 joint operations have been conducted in North Korea, during which remains believed to be those of more than 200 soldiers have been recovere

Pete, the above does not support your statement. This was from five years ago.

Cynicom  posted on  2009-08-02   14:43:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: abraxas (#30)

As I wrote earlier,go to the link below and you can click on their names and discover that they were all either returned when the war ended or never reported as being MIA at all. Some (most?) of them were even seen on tv after their aircraft crashed.

There is a huge difference between being a POW and being a MIA.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   14:43:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: sneakypete (#32)

Did you read this one?

The name of Marine Capt. James Wilbourn, age 29, appeared on Pentagon missing lists in early March 1991. There has been no other information released by media or government sources about him.

In early March 1991, 21 American POWs were released by the Iraqis, but James Wilbourn was not among them. No further word of his fate has been released. Then in mid-March, Wilbourn was declared dead. It was not announced whether the declaration was based on the return of remains or circumstantial.

Several thousand families whose loved ones remain missing in Vietnam, Korea, and World War II are very concerned about the "information gap" regarding the missing and prisoners in the Middle East war. They remember being told to "keep quiet" for the sake of their loved ones. They know that it was only when they became actively vocal that world pressure stopped the torture and ill treatment of their men.

They know that nameless, faceless men are easily left behind at the end of hostilities. They are afraid that another generation of prisoners and missing, unknown to the American public, will be abandoned to the enemy.

abraxas  posted on  2009-08-02   14:44:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: abraxas (#33)

What about the dozen or so who have "Body NOT recovered" status tags. How is it that their status changes from MIA?

They were never missing in action to start with. Most were never even IN action, They fell off boats and drowned,or their aircraft went down at sea.

I am almost positive there were a few cases where a soldier was seen to step on a mine or booby trap and be instantly vaporized,and he will forever be listed as "body not recovered",too. Not because there is any doubt he or she was killed,but because there is nothing left to recover.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   14:46:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: sneakypete (#37)

I did go and read them. There is no reason given as to a change in status from MIA when the body has not been recovered. I have also read that families are told to not question as are veterans groups. It was my understanding that without a body, the status should remain MIA and the quest to bring them home continue. Once the status is changed, the DOD need not carry on with any attempt to locate them.

I provided you an excerpt from another case that offers no reasoning for a change in MIA status other than the DOD desired the change.

abraxas  posted on  2009-08-02   14:48:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: sneakypeteabraxas (#39)

Pete...

This is official listing of my friend in Korea...

Notice died while missing?? That is how hundreds were written off

"CESSNA MARVIN JR SSGT AIR FORCE ONTARIO CALIFORNIA 31 DEC 1953 DIED WHILE MISSING"

If you read carefully you will see a gross discrepancy, the war ended in June 1953, why the difference.

Typical military, last day of the year, write everyone off. Books are all clean and up to date. Stroke of a pen Pete.

Cynicom  posted on  2009-08-02   14:51:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: abraxas (#40)

Nr 41 was for you also.

Cynicom  posted on  2009-08-02   14:52:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Cynicom (#34)

Records show 4167 bodies returned from North Korea, due joint North Korean/American efforts, there are still 417 unaccounted for.

I will take your word for that number,but add that there is nothing I or anyone else can do about the ones still unaccounted for until and unless the NK's allow search teams in to look for them.

BTW,LTC Robert Howard testified before the Senate kangaroo court held by John McLunatic and John Wayne Kerry to have ALL MIA's declared to be dead that just a short time before (I can't remember the exact time frame right now) he had been the commander of SOG in South Korea,and he had PERSONALLY seen evidence that the North Koreans were holding MIA's from VN prisoner in North Korea. Bob Howard said this under oath while wearing his uniform,and there is no power in heaven or earth that could force him to tell a lie under those circumstances. Unlike what the did with the POW/MIA wives,neither McLunatic nor Kerry were stupid enough to call him a liar (he is not only a Medal of Honor winner,but the most decorated soldier in the history of the US Army) after he testified. They just thanked him,dismissed him,and ignored what he said because it wasn't what they wanted to hear.

I do believe there was also at least one MIA from the Korean War after that who made a public announcement to a western journalist visiting NK,and told him his name and said he wanted to go home to NC. He was a deserter that crossed the lines to surrender to the NK's,and had lived there ever since. He even married and had children,

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   14:53:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: sneakypete (#43)

Pete read my nr 41, that is from military records

Cynicom  posted on  2009-08-02   14:57:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: sneakypete (#39)

They were never missing in action to start with.

Then why were they initially classified as such?

abraxas  posted on  2009-08-02   14:57:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Cynicom (#36)

Pete, the above does not support your statement. This was from five years ago.

Then I was wrong. North Korea has a reputation as the most restrictive country in the world,and they just don't allow people to travel around freely. Not even their own people. I know they had refused to allow this in the past,and had just assumed they were still denying permission to search.

It does prove the point that the US Government is spending more than "a dime" to find missing Korean War MIA's,though.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   14:58:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: abraxas (#45)

My nr 41...

How does one go from MIA to died while MIA if no one knows where the body is?????

Creative book keeping by the military, keep things tidy, unless of course you have clout with the President. My friends parents had nothing.

Cynicom  posted on  2009-08-02   14:59:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: sneakypete (#39)

REMARKS: OPERATION DESERT STORM

SYNOPSIS: During the early weeks of the Middle East war, each time a Coalition serviceman was shot down or captured, extensive media coverage followed. The public and POW/MIA families alike had the information they wanted at the touch of a dial.

When Coalition POWs began being showed on Iraqi television, the world suffered with their families as they haltingly gave coerced "peace" statements. This propaganda effort on the part of the Iraqis actually had a positive effect in the United States. Families at least knew their missing loved one was alive, and could assess their mental and physical condition from propaganda interviews.

Then the "information gap" began. The Pentagon announced that it would no longer release any information other than name, rank, age and branch of service of missing or captured personnel. This step was taken, they said, to protect the well-being of prisoners and to avoid jeopardizing search and rescue efforts for the missing.

Pentagon briefings and television reports listed the loss of aircraft and statistics, and the human element of the war was gone. Even long after search and rescue efforts would cease, no information was released on missing personnel. Intelligence reports indicating "missing" people were captured were largely ignored. In the 6 weeks following the televised propaganda interviews by Coalition POWs, only one Coalition serviceman was declared POW - and even then, no information was released about him.

Sneaky, I have to say, that I am surprised you agree with the "ONLY ONE MIA" mantra from the Pentegon.

abraxas  posted on  2009-08-02   15:03:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: abraxas (#38)

Did you read this one?

The name of Marine Capt. James Wilbourn, age 29, appeared on Pentagon missing lists in early March 1991. There has been no other information released by media or government sources about him.

No. Not until you pointed it out. You should be aware that the following paragraph was immediately after the paragraph you quoted,though.

In early March 1991, 21 American POWs were released by the Iraqis, but James Wilbourn was not among them. No further word of his fate has been released. Then in mid-March, Wilbourn was declared dead. It was not announced whether the declaration was based on the return of remains or circumstantial.

It clearly states he is dead,and not missing in action.

There is something really strange about this case,though. I have never heard of a POW/MIA case being resolved with the man being declared dead with no other information ever released about where he was,what he was doing,or the circumstances that led to him being declared dead.

And don't say "It's because he was working spook operations." I know better than that. They hide the deaths of these guys with the deaths of conventional military members that are KIA the same day when it was somebody involved in covert ops.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   15:05:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: abraxas (#40)

To: sneakypete I did go and read them. There is no reason given as to a change in status from MIA when the body has not been recovered. I have also read that families are told to not question as are veterans groups. It was my understanding that without a body, the status should remain MIA and the quest to bring them home continue. Once the status is changed, the DOD need not carry on with any attempt to locate them.

First off,Arteaga was never suspected of being a POW. He was "missing in action" only in the sense that he was lost at sea. There was NEVER any question of the enemy holding him as a prisoner.

Here is the rest of the story below

ARTEAGA, JORGE I. Name: Jorge I. Arteaga Rank/Branch: 1st Lieutenant/US Air Force Unit: 97th Bombardment Wing Age: 26 Home City of Record: Trumbull CT Date of Loss: 03 February 1991 Country of Loss: Indian Ocean Loss Coordinates: Status in 2002: Killed/Body Not Recovered Acft/Vehicle/Ground: B52

1991, hostilities in the Middle East again called the B52 into action. On February 3, a B52 crashed about 2,500 miles east of Saudi Arabia over the Indian Ocean. The aircraft, carrying six crew members, was returning to Diego Garcia Air Base from a mission over Iraq. The crew was from the 97th Bombardment Wing on temporary duty assignment from Eaker Air Force Base. Three crew members were rescued from the water, but three - Arteaga, Hedeen and Olson - remained missing.

And they will always remain missing. People missing at sea tend to stay missing. You know they are dead because they were never found.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   15:10:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: sneakypete, abraxas (#50)

Pete...

Re Speicher...

This from today..just ONE of the attempts forced by the family via Jewish organizations to cause the military to expend more time and money.

"My heart goes out to the family, again," said Sen. Bill Nelson, the Florida senator who was instrumental several years ago in getting the Navy to renew a search for the missing pilot. "We all clung to the slim hope that Scott was still alive and would one day come home to his family."

Cynicom  posted on  2009-08-02   15:14:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Cynicom (#41)

Notice died while missing?? That is how hundreds were written off

"CESSNA MARVIN JR SSGT AIR FORCE ONTARIO CALIFORNIA 31 DEC 1953 DIED WHILE MISSING"

If you read carefully you will see a gross discrepancy, the war ended in June 1953, why the difference.

Sounds to me like they suspect or know that he was executed by the NK's,and are just playing pretty diplomatic word games in order to not offend the NK's. Maybe because they hope to recover the bodies of the executed if they don't rub the NK's noses in their murders,or maybe because of some other reason we will never know about.

Remember the teams going into Russia after the USSR collapsed to look for remains of missing US soldiers and airmen from WW-2? The ones that were rumored to have been captured by the Red Army and held as prisoners? That was kept so quiet that most people have no idea it even happened.

Not any doubt about that being suspiscious wording,though. I don't think I have ever seen anything like it.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   15:14:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: abraxas (#45)

They were never missing in action to start with.

Then why were they initially classified as such?

Because there is a difference between missing and missing in action. Missing just means the US military doesn't know exactly where they are at that time. Missing in action means that,and it also means the missing may be being held as prisoners of war by the enemy.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   15:16:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: sneakypete (#53)

Because there is a difference between missing and missing in action. Missing just means the US military doesn't know exactly where they are at that time. Missing in action means that,and it also means the missing may be being held as prisoners of war by the enemy.

Perhaps there is logic, but I csnnot find it.

Cynicom  posted on  2009-08-02   15:17:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Cynicom (#47)

How does one go from MIA to died while MIA if no one knows where the body is?????

Based on eyewitness accounts by prisoners that survived,and sometimes even by former guards.

For example,suppose you are in a helicopter with a bunch of other guys that is shot down or crashes for some other reason in the jungle or in the ocean. Everybody on the helicopter is listed as Missing in Action until and unless the enemy lists them as people they have captured and are holding prisoner. If their names don't show up on that list,they will always remain as missing in action until the government finds out what happened to them.

Sometimes they find out what happened when the other prisoners are released,and one or two will say,"Yeah,we were the only survivors of the crash. Everybody else died when it exploded." The government will then list the missing as MIA,presumed dead." They will maintain that status until the crash site is located and a team goes there and finds the remains.

Sometimes it's years after the war ended and it's a local farmer that tells a traveling search team,"Yeah,there was a helicopter that crashed on that mountain over there years ago,but it blew up when it crashed and there were no survivors. We went there when the fire was out to salvage what we could find,and we buried the crew members in that field over there."

This has happened a lot in VN,Laos,and Cambodia,and also happened a lot in South Korea,where US forces were overan in the early days,and the NK's executed a lot of US prisoners when they were chased out.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   15:24:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: abraxas (#48)

Sneaky, I have to say, that I am surprised you agree with the "ONLY ONE MIA" mantra from the Pentegon.

Ok,name another.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   15:24:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: sneakypete (#55)

Did you note the book keeping method on Cessna??????

Cynicom  posted on  2009-08-02   15:26:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Cynicom (#51)

This from today..just ONE of the attempts forced by the family via Jewish organizations to cause the military to expend more time and money.

Good for them! Maybe some Christian organizations should get together and push for Christian POW's to be found?

I'm all for the US Government spending the time and money to find out what happened to the men and women they send off to fight and die.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   15:27:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Cynicom (#57)

Did you note the book keeping method on Cessna??????

Yes. It seems to imply he was executed. Or at least that is the way it looks to me.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   15:28:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: sneakypete (#56)

Ok,name another.

I already provided you with the information on another. You agree it is a "strange case" and without question accept the DOD dead verdict with no body or other evidence provided to substantiate the claim. He went from POW to dead with just a few taps on the keyboard.

I also provided you with the DOD changes in providing status information on MIA cases, which makes it so much easier for them to write them off as dead and sweep them under the carpet.

abraxas  posted on  2009-08-02   15:30:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: sneakypete (#58)

Good for them! Maybe some Christian organizations should get together and push for Christian POW's to be found?

Dont look but that has been tried in the past.

By many women after Vietnam and ME. they got the backs of the hands from the government. Surely you recall that after Vietnam and what McCain had to say to them??????

McCain was not very nice.

Cynicom  posted on  2009-08-02   15:31:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: sneakypete (#59)

Yes. It seems to imply he was executed. Or at least that is the way it looks to me.

Pete, surely you do not expect me to believe that?????

Cynicom  posted on  2009-08-02   15:32:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: abraxas (#60)

I already provided you with the information on another.

No,you didn't. He was declared dead,not MIA.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   15:50:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Cynicom (#61)

Surely you recall that after Vietnam and what McCain had to say to them?????

McCain was not very nice.

I wrote about this in a earlier post to you.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   15:51:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Cynicom (#62)

Yes. It seems to imply he was executed. Or at least that is the way it looks to me.

Pete, surely you do not expect me to believe that?????

Why not? It's what I believe based on what I read.

What conclusions do you come to? Do you think he is still alive? If so,based on what?

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   15:52:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: sneakypete (#63)

No,you didn't. He was declared dead,not MIA

His status is: PFOD - remains status unknown.

Convenient don't you think?

Name: James Wilbourne Rank/Branch: Captain/US Marine Corps Unit: Age: 29 Home City: Date of Loss: 03/ /91 Country of Loss: Loss Coordinates:

abraxas  posted on  2009-08-02   15:56:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: abraxas (#60)

Ok,name another.

I already provided you with the information on another.

No,you didn't. He was determined to be dead,not a MIA. His status is PFOD,which I assume means "Presumptive Finding of Death". Mostly because I have heard that term used before.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   18:44:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: abraxas (#66)

His status is: PFOD - remains status unknown.

Again,PFOD means "Presumptive Finding of Death.

"remains status unknown" means they don't know where the body is.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-08-02   18:49:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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