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Title: Analysts Expect Long-Term, Costly U.S. Campaign in Afghanistan
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URL Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy ... /08/08/AR2009080802283_pf.html
Published: Aug 9, 2009
Author: Walter Pincus
Post Date: 2009-08-09 10:14:59 by christine
Keywords: None
Views: 1284
Comments: 85
As the Obama administration expands U.S. involvement in Afghanistan, military experts are warning that the United States is taking on security and political commitments that will last at least a decade and a cost that will probably eclipse that of the Iraq war. Since the invasion of Afghanistan eight years ago, the United States has spent $223 billion on war-related funding for that country, according to the Congressional Research Service. Aid expenditures, excluding the cost of combat operations, have grown exponentially, from $982 million in 2003 to $9.3 billion last year. The costs are almost certain to keep growing. The Obama administration is in the process of overhauling the U.S. approach to Afghanistan, putting its focus on long-term security, economic sustainability and development. That approach is also likely to require deployment of more American military personnel, at the very least to train additional Afghan security forces. Later this month, Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, is expected to present his analysis of the situation in the country. The analysis could prompt an increase in U.S. troop levels to help implement President Obama's new strategy. Military experts insist that the additional resources are necessary. But many, including some advising McChrystal, say they fear the public has not been made aware of the significant commitments that come with Washington's new policies. "We will need a large combat presence for many years to come, and we will probably need a large financial commitment longer than that," said Stephen Biddle, a senior fellow for defense policy at the Council on Foreign Relations and a member of the "strategic assessment" team advising McChrystal. The expansion of the Afghan security force that the general will recommend to secure the country "will inevitably cost much more than any imaginable Afghan government is going to be able to afford on its own," Biddle added. "Afghan forces will need $4 billion a year for another decade, with a like sum for development," said Bing West, a former assistant secretary of defense and combat Marine who has chronicled the Iraq and Afghan wars. Bing said the danger is that Congress is "so generous in support of our own forces today, it may not support the aid needed for progress in Afghanistan tomorrow." Some members of Congress are worried. The House Appropriations Committee said in its report on the fiscal 2010 defense appropriations bill that its members are "concerned about the prospects for an open-ended U.S. commitment to bring stability to a country that has a decades-long history of successfully rebuffing foreign military intervention and attempts to influence internal politics." The Afghan government has made some political and military progress since 2001, but the Taliban insurgency has been reinvigorated. Anthony H. Cordesman, another member of McChrystal's advisory group and a national security expert with the Center for Strategic and International Studies, told reporters recently that even with military gains in the next 12 to 18 months, it would take years to reduce sharply the threat from the Taliban and other insurgent forces. The task that the United States has taken on in Afghanistan is in many ways more difficult than the one it has encountered in Iraq, where the U.S. government has spent $684 billion in war-related funding. In a 2008 study that ranked the weakest states in the developing world, the Brookings Institution rated Afghanistan second only to Somalia. Afghanistan's gross domestic product in 2008 was $23 billion, with about $3 billion coming from opium production, according to the CIA's World Factbook. Oil-producing Iraq had a GDP of $113 billion. Afghanistan's central government takes in roughly $890 million in annual revenue, according to the World Factbook. Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates has pointed out that Afghanistan's national budget cannot support the $2 billion needed today for the country's army and police force. Dutch Army Brig. Gen. Tom Middendorp, commander of the coalition task force in Afghanistan's southern Uruzgan province, described the region as virtually prehistoric. "It's the poorest province of one of the poorest countries in the world. And if you walk through that province, it's like walking through the Old Testament," Middendorp told reporters recently. "There is enormous illiteracy in the province. More than 90 percent cannot write or read. So it's very basic, what you do there. And they have had 30 years of conflict." Unlike in Iraq, where Obama has established a timeline for U.S. involvement, the president has not said when he would like to see troops withdrawn from Afghanistan. White House officials emphasize that the burden is not that of the United States alone. The NATO-led force in the country has 61,000 troops from 42 countries; about 29,000 of those troops are American. Still, military experts say the United States will not be able to shed its commitment easily. The government has issued billions of dollars in contracts in recent years, underscoring the vast extent of work that U.S. officials are commissioning. Among other purposes, contractors have been sought this summer to build a $25 million provincial Afghan National Police headquarters; maintain anti-personnel mine systems; design and build multimillion-dollar sections of roads; deliver by sea and air billions of dollars worth of military bulk cargo; and supervise a drug-eradication program. One solicitation, issued by the Army Corps of Engineers, is aimed at finding a contractor to bring together Afghan economic, social, legal and political groups to help build the country's infrastructure. The contractor would work with Afghan government officials as well as representatives from private and nongovernmental organizations to establish a way to allocate resources for new projects. "We are looking at two decades of supplying a few billion a year to Afghanistan," said Michael E. O'Hanlon, a senior fellow and military expert at the Brookings Institution, adding: "It's a reasonable guess that for 20 years, we essentially will have to fund half the Afghan budget." He described the price as reasonable, given that it may cost the United States $100 billion this year to continue fighting. "We are creating a [long-term military aid] situation similar to the ones we have with Israel, Egypt and Jordan," he said.
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#1. To: christine (#0)
The analysis could prompt an increase in U.S. troop levels to help implement President Obama's new strategy.
CBS is about to do a story on that.
I was just reading last night that they are now in the process of building a major new US base there with a PX,Burger King,and the whole 9 yards. We will still be there,protecting and supporting those parasites 30 years from now.
Posted here: freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/re....cgi?ArtNum=104449&Disp=0
Why don't the teabaggers ever rally against this? At our latest one on our courthouse lawn on July 4, the speaker here decried Obama for NOT increasing the military budget, which he DID do, BTW, just not enough for the retired teabagging military officer (who, like McCain, was once a guest at the Hanoi Hilton). This is another key reason the GOPers are finished. They are AGAINST Big Gubmint, except when they're not. ANYTHING which can be related to wars and the military gets a pass. The Blue Dog Dems with military bases in their district are no better. Eisenhower's prophecy came true. This country is a captive of the MIC. We are all their slaves.
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
Well, there is one little detail you left out there. GWBush had a chance to capture OBL early on in Afghanistan. Instead, he felt confident going into Iraq waging a do nothing campaign liberating the whole planet from tyrants. The tempo for success was lost in Afghanistan leading to well understood fact of where we are today. And even if we accomplished our military and political objectives in Afghanistan, we would still fail. The Taliban would be replaced by others perhaps even more radical.
on all the MSM channels this morning - do we need a major troop surge in Afghanistan...
And even if we accomplished our military and political objectives in Afghanistan, we would still fail. We would fail with our ostensible objectives in Afghanistan because that is what they are designed to do - fail. Our real objectives have nothing to do with Afghanstan at all. Our real objectives involve staying in the region as long as possible. Our real objectives involve providing Iran with the surround sound of our artillery fire. Our real objectives involve jacking around with Russia in their own back yard. The Taliban would be replaced by others perhaps even more radical. The Taliban are about ten percent more conservative than the peasants from whose loins they spring. They are just the neighborhood bully boy farm hands that would rather sit around reading the Koran and walk the barrio toting AK's, than till the soil. They live off the dope we let them export. If it weren't for us, they'd be run out of town and have to find jobs. BTW, Bucky, Big Bad Bin Ladin has been room temperature since '02, and the Chimpster had no intention of capturing him. Like Saddam he was our Frankenstein from early on. (He is ali-i-ive! Ha-ha-ha-ha!) Now these boys are dead.
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. I disagree with you about "real objectives" although America is acting as the catalyst as the de facto standard for ME aggression. The real objectives are the control of gas/oil energy pipelines into Southeast Europe.
Then we're on the same page. This requires armed presence in Russia's outback for the forseeable future. Turning Iran would be a nice adjunct to all this. The Taliban provide our leaders with a fright mask to shake on the face of the rubes that pay for and man our battalions over there.
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. So, you have to place things in perspective. America is NOT in the ME to raise havoc even though it appears that way. The US maintains about 25% of the world's economy although it is relatively declining with the rise of China and India as industrial powerhouses. Still, the undercurrent we are discussing is about energy which fuels America's industrial capacity and capabilities and ensures our future to compete on the global markets. And I mean cheap fuel, too. It also ensures our allies have energy for their struggling economies as well. So, you better believe there is national strategic interest in the ME. But it was never about "liberation" as that idiot and earlier liar and thief, GWBush, suggested countless times. It is about maintenance of stable markets ensuring tranquility on the home-front.
Actually I think it is a tool for furthering destabilization. This is used to promote statism and control. Those are the goals. Nothing else matters.
Stable markets at home depend on political and market stability abroad. No one is a greater enemy of a stable international order than the fanatics at the controls of this country. Stability? When do you remember stability? You watch too many talking heads.
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. When I was born, the Korean War was ongoing. So here is the timeline to address your question. And through this time, the US has been a founding member of just about every major world organization: from the UN to the WTO and World bank besides SEATO and NATO. 1964 The U.S. Senate passes the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution at the request of President Johnson. The Resolution approves U.S. military involvement in the Vietnam conflict. 1973 President Nixon orders a halt to offensive operations in North Vietnam on Jan. 15 and representatives from all sides sign a peace pact, ending the longest war in U.S. history. The last American troops depart by March 1973. I was involved in this silly war, too. Check out my home page if you have time. 1983 President Reagan orders an invasion of Grenada to establish order on the island and eliminate the Cuban military presence there. A U.S. peace-keeping force remains until 1985. 1989 The Berlin Wall comes down, marking the end of the Cold War. 1989 President Bush sends troops to Panama to depose and capture Manuel Noriega, who had been indicted for drug trafficking. 1991 Persian Gulf War—the U.S. leads a coalition of 32 countries to drive Iraq out of Kuwait, which it had invaded. 1993 Somalia A U.S.-led multinational force attempts to restore order to war-torn Somalia so that food can be delivered and distributed within the famine-stricken country. 1994 Haiti After Haiti's democratically elected president Jean-Bertrand Aristide is ousted in a coup in 1991, a U.S. invasion three years later restores him to power. 1994–1995 Bosnia During the Bosnian civil war, which begins shortly after the country declares independence in 1992, the U.S. launches air strikes on Bosnia to prevent ethnic cleansing. It becomes a part of NATO's peacekeeping force in the region. 1999 Kosovo Yugoslavia's province of Kosovo erupts in war in the spring of 1999. A U.S.-led NATO force intervenes with air strikes after Slobodan Milosevic's Serbian forces uproot the population and embark on a plan of ethnic cleansing of Kosovo's ethnic Albanian population. 2001 After the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the U.S. declares war on terrorism. 2001 Operation Enduring Freedom—the U.S. invades Afghanistan and deposes the Taliban, who had sheltered terrorist leader Osama bin Laden. 2003 The U.S. launches Operation Iraqi Freedom, an invasion of Iraq, as part of the war on terrorism.
Gotcha... Back in the 1930s we had stability for years.
But the place holder of government rhetoric and dogma besides action is to ensure stability. The believers of any government authority must be stunned by the mess these same charlatans have created.
buck... It was such a mess that Roosevelt and his communist running dogs KNEW war was the only way out. Proof...FDR had six long years to make repairs and things got worse. Henry Wallace started taking young pigs and plowing them under while people were hungry and some starving. Can we afford to give Obama six long years????? I dont think so.
We're probably quibbling about the issues on the margins. But I think that we can agree that the US wants to ensure that the energy that we are talking about flows south and west and not north and east. From a macro perspective, the natural thing would be for it to flow to energy hungry Asia. The only way to ensure that it doesn't is have boots on the ground to maintain a presence and secure the ports and the pipelines. You have to have a raison d'etre for those troops to be there. That's why instability in the ME is preferable to stability. This suits our little "friend" (the only democracy in the Middle East™) just fine too. There are those among us, and I would hope that I could number you among them, that feel that we have everything we need at home. What do we really need from other folks? Chromium?? If you add it all up, the US has the greateset concentration of hydrocarbons of any nation on Earth. If you add in our contiguous neighbors we could be sitting quite pretty. Our lords, though, have no interest in peace and prosperity. Prosperity, or the prospect of it, is only of interest to them insofar as it provides them with a carrot to entice us into the endless wars that they have planned for us.
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. We shall not abide such. Not on our lives.
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. People were more stoic , more self sufficient, more self reliant in those days. The majority were tied to the soil. None of those apply in these times. None.
Then Adolf Hitler became the world's nastiest man. The effort of war worked liked a charm. America stood at the outcome of WWII as the SUPERPOWER. Too cool, too. That's when the glorious manifestations of Truman came into being: the UN on the one hand and the CIA on the other.
It went downhill when the world elite decided war was the answer to world hunger.
The only apparent energy source on the horizon are nuclear fuel rods. The costs are prohibitive and most commercial plants are state funded anymore through federal mandates for compliance with existing laws. Even bio energy sources have proved, upon analysis to be a dream. The cost of corn and distillation processes do not include the actual cost of crop production and denial of probable food supplies; the cost of energy production for all these alternative methods is prohibitive. I even have solar at my home kicking out 32KWHs/ day. This method removes me from the electricity grid but the initial costs are not for the common man. It will take me years to come to recoup the costs. America has turned into a failure through massive regulation that has turned the nation into a international war machine frightened by everyone around the world.
Please remember the essential content of the article we are discussing. It is about further intrusion into Afghanistan by another ignorant elected president. And Afghanistan only has a population base of about 32Million, about one-tenth that of the USA; and it is one of the poorest nations on the planet. American interests controlling the military actions there only want the pipelines. America could give a damned about world hunger in that hot, unbearable climate. Where is the water to turn farms into a gold mine? Nope, it is all about the cross-roads of energy pipe-lines for energy consumption into Pakistan/India and the EU. The Taliban stand in our way.
I disagree. Our only interest over there is poppy crops.
Ya know, I was just think how cheaply this Seinfeldian "war-about-nothing" was costing us (cough, hack.) "Experts"?? HELLO. Are they now finally admitting what many of us have predicted the moment George W. Bush announced "Mission Accomplished" would be replaced by "OPERATION: Nation Building." I'M "warning" that this latest "mission" - "OPERATION: Blood-Sucking Elites Rape America" will be in full swing until the year 2525.
And for every one of those 30 years resenting out sacrifice and presence while deriding how stoopid America is. Iraq's infrastructure will have been totally reconstructed while our own cities, bridges, sewer and water systems crumble. What benefit are we getting out of this scam again? Oh that's right - the Bogeyman Man is dead and the 1500 year Muslim tradition of "DEATH TO THE INFIDEL" will change over night; Silly me - I'm a bit of a cynic.
I thought "war" was the answer to "control-the-sheep"?
The issues in Afghanistan have nothing to do with narcotics. And I have a Hookah to prove it although it is bit dusty.
Right, that's why we went to war on the taliban right after they cut off the opium trade.
Au contraire, my dear. America was attacked by al-Qa'ida directly from Afghanistan and all of the ME with the singular exception of Iraq. Those MFers needed their asses fried creating a war situation. Unfortunately, America had a snot-nosed braggart at the helm; he even ditched his military assignments during earlier years. Yet, as a liar in thief the asshole chose to misdirect that war effort in Afghanistan playing mummbly pegs with Saddam Hussein.
As a racist nation, the chickens were coming home to roost. Certainly you agree.
The evidence is indisputable. We went to war over drugs not oil.
oh, so it was Al Qaeda who attacked us on 911?
Yeah. It is indisputable. Puleze don't start the "truther faerie tale" again. This has been a fine thread so far.
And did we know that 6 months before when we approached the government of India about attacking Iraq? And did we know it at the end of July 2001 when John Ashcroft's office announced he would no longer fly on commercial airliners specifying unidentified "threats"?
"I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
Oh, so Al-CIAda was able to wire the towers with nano-themates, commandeer multiple airliners (and with known incompetents at the stick fly them like Richtoften's Flying Circus), wave his majick Cell Phone three times and make WTC 7 fall down, while ordering the FBI to confiscate every one of the 32 surveillance videos surrounding the approach to the Pentagram the afternoon of 911 (none of which have ever been released 9 years after the fact), then through his agents in DC was able to convince Geeeeee Duhbya to have the structural members of the towers put under armed guard, prevent forensic examination of the structural elements, have them shipped out of the country to be melted (staying under armed guard even at the dump until they were out of the country), order Geeeeeeeee Duhbya to have all of Osama Ben Goldstein's family flown out of the country the next day, shred the ATC records, put a gag order (still in effect) on the Air Traffic Controllers who watched it unfold, and on and on with the anomalies .... That Al CIAda? Oh, and how did Osama Ben Golstein create the molten metal pulled up six weeks after the towers collapsed - rub his majick lamp?
"I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician
I'm a recent convert. I have a video you should see.
Here is what I know and have always maintained: a pile of ignorant Muslims under the direction of Osama bin Laden bombed America. The common denominator for their attacks was the US government both about aggression in the ME and lackadaisical security here in America. Trillions of dollars have been handily shelled out by tax payers to the FBI/CIA about learning this crap for years. And they failed. But of course, government always fails. But they are always the first to say they succeed.
And you would be wrong.
Massive publick pandemonium is not a direct function of government involvement. It is about the initial trigger mechanisms creating the excitement and tragedy and in the case of 9/11 the devastating effects that linger on. You can't find one thread of evidence concerning government conspiratorial involvement about 9/11; just futile attempts to bring cohesive forces after wards.
Yes actually you can. You really need to see this video. I was on the fence about this stuff until recently. Send me a mailing address and I'll send you a video.
Somehow, earlier on I knew that this thread would become majick truther faerie tale stuff for the weak of mind, brainless or infant minded. So go ahead and convince me. It better be good too.
You already have my email addy.
Hard to mail a CD that way. Up to you.
What is the content or title? What is the Internet link?
As I said I was very much on the fence. I believed the government line and didn't follow the truther threads. What little I did see was intriguing hence being on the fence. This video lays it all out very nicely. The CNN footage of the planes crashing into the buildings was interesting and of course the BBC announcing that building seven had fallen when it is clearly in the picture behind the reporter is also rather interesting. I've got lots of good videos that show the government for what it is including cops posing as protesters trying to start a riot. Great stuff.
I'll have to get back to you on that, my copy seems to be missing. I think my son has it somewhere.
Found my copy. It's 9-11 Ripple Effect produced by William Lewis and Dave Vonkieist. I'm sure you can purchase it on line but I have no link.
omg. i never knew you were a believer in the .gov tale.
But that is always after the fact. For 9/11, the US government was just an inept organization, non-caring about the original attack. It started from the top down, too. Here is footage of GWBush reading about Pet Goats with a class of kids while being informed of the Twin Towers fiasco; he didn't give a damn: These people in charge of government don't care. They think the world owes then a living.
Actually that is not what you are seeing. Bush clearly stated many times he saw the planes hit the towers.
But, the truth is: America had nothing to do with the trigger mechanisms. All you see is ineptitude and silly blunders in governance before and after the event.
tell me, buck, how is that Bin Laden was able to make NORAD stand down that day?
I'm not wild about Alex Jones. The video I talked about is better and more comprehensive.
No. Really you need to see that video. I'm going to see if some of it is on youtube. Stay tuned.
Mohamed Atta was not an American he was an Egyptian. He was a terrorist upon America soil just like all the others from Saudi Arabia during 9/11 using box-cutters and Jets.
Ok this one was taken from the video I was talking about.
It wasn't Laden. It was a failure of governance. Then again, that is not the reason for the trigger mechanisms. It just shows the incompetence of the people in power that are too lazy to perform their jobs while eating donuts and sucking down coffee while watching porn on government computers. These people that forcefully extract our tax dollars are worthless towards the sanctity and preservation about our individual rights and liberties. And what makes it worse, they know it, too.
That's an out-of-date figure. I'd say it's below 20 by now. The U.S. GDP number in itself is phony, based mainly on vendor-financed consumption. The vendors are wising up, too. They realize this economy is a hollow shell and they have no hope of ever being paid back.
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
This and similar presentations show that no matter how you weasel-word it (no "trigger mechanmisms" and "failure of governance" there) it's a lead-pipe cinch that 19 Arabs were NOT the authors of this horror. They are the Lee Harvey Oswalds of this generation. And at least six of them are demostrably walking around breathing and giving interviews. Only the most dense among us don't recognize the something here stinks terribly with this story - the government story.
Join 2x4 Tuesdays & protect your RKBA. Unconvincing. It is a surreptitious method of creating doubt about direct American government involvement using shadows and various methods that have no basis in fact. I had a friend on a plane that day although it hit the pentagon not the twin towers. I have never seen her again. And I can say, I truly miss her.
Just great; you are quibbling with the fact that America comprises about 4% of the world's total population. Please understand the tremendous ramifications of our wealth here in America; we dominate the entire planet.
That phrase is quite telling. It's indicative of a phony, consumption-based, FIRE-based economy. "Transactions" are not the same as "production." The U.S. economy is now about five percent smaller than it was at its peak. China slowed down, but has not had a down quarter yet. I don't know about India.
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
If you had bothered to read the stats presented, you could have realized these folks are way behind us. Now, please don't misunderstand me again. I am not suggesting America is increasing economic strength. I am suggesting we actually carry the world's economy particularly when you factor in the populace. Some folks around the world consider us as living GODS because of this average wealth disparity amongst nations. You can't get around it.
And for every one of those 30 years resenting out sacrifice and presence while deriding how stoopid America is. We ARE stoopid for doing this. I have said it before and I will say it again,where we screwed up was in not calling all the tribal chiefs together after removing the Taliban from power,and telling them,"We are done here. Now it's up to you to form your own government and take care of your own problems. If you want a Islamic government,that's fine with us as long as you don't try to cause us any more grief. If you are friendly,we may even give you a few bucks for reconstruction and send some skilled people to tell you how to build and fix things. If you screw up and let the Taliban take power again or cause us any grief in any way,we will come back and hang whatever goat-humper you put in charge of your country and his entire government with pigs intestines and then burn or destroy every mosque and other public building in the country before leaving again. And then we should have left.
9-11 The Ripple Effect Here it is.
here's the problem with your scenario, pete. we're not there for the reasons you enumerate. that's simply the pretense. this is an excerpt regarding 911/Iraq/Afghan from a newsletter of Jim Willie. i believe he's dead on in his assessment: No need to expound too much on my views regarding the 911 False Flag attack on the Pentagon and World Trade Center. A quick summary will do. Fully 50% of Americans call it an inside job, but only 12% believe the WTC collapse was a demolition project, still relatively clueless. Basic understanding of high school chemistry and physics would lead to over 90% comprehension and suspicion (see gravity and melting point of structural steel). A missile hit the Pentagon precisely at the Army Accounting office location, which was soon to publish a report on $2.3 trillion in missing funds over two decades. The World Trade Center event on 911 was the biggest bank heist in US history, yet unrecognized officially in annals. The theft of $100 billion in gold bullion from basement vaults, along with $100 billion in USTreasury bearer bonds, and $100 billion in diamonds was truly significant. Information sources of mine are as numerous as they are independent, all consistent in the stories. The entire 911 events enabled the launch of an Iraq War to establish a military foundation in the Middle East, to motivate enormous defense contracts, to confiscate Iraqi oil to assure military oil supply, and to enable vast service contractor funds to flow for gigantic fraud and theft. Recall that $50 billion is still missing, not even being searched for, in the Iraqi Reconstruction Fund managed by the Bush II Admin. Mission Accomplished! Last was the biggest benefit of all: the capture of the Afghan narcotics prize by the CIA. That permitted the CIA to control over 80% of the global narcotics trade, whose clearinghouse is the Bank of Baghdad, managed by JPMorgan. The US Federal Reserve is well aware of the money laundering operations that reach Wall Street banks.
I like your new schtick. This site is getting it's version of McCain Rocks. lol
My favorite 911 film is Sofia Shafquat's 911 Mysteries: Demolitions. It can be viewed here, but it's well worth purchasing the DVD.
++
Thanks, I'll look into it. My political group has meetings on the 2nd and 4th wed so one of our members has a movie night at his place on the alternate wed. I probably wouldn't watch half these movies otherwise.
Thanks!
Perfect solution. And much cheaper. Would apply in Iraq as well. If you screw up and let the Taliban take power again or cause us any grief in any way,we will come back and hang whatever goat-humper you put in charge of your country and his entire government with pigs intestines and then burn or destroy every mosque and other public building in the country before leaving again. And then we should have left. Lol, nice touch. A bit edgy, but sends a clear message. Why ARE we still in Afghanistan again?
I agree... IF we were there for legit reasons, that solution would have sufficed well. BUT alas, we are left with the reality of a 9/11 False Flag attack on the Pentagon and World Trade Center and convenient excuse to create a trillion dollar-plus boondoggle war in both Afghanistan and Iraq.
Hey brutha - what it eee-is? :-)
As near as I can tell it is because defense related industries in states with powerful congresscritters from both branches of the ruling party are making too much money and employing too many people to make a pullout economically and politically practical. Take the votes and the profits out of it,and we would be gone.
I hadn't thought of that. That makes as much sense - MORE sense - than anything else. Have we an "official" reason beside raiding opium fields and building bases?
I don't know,and to be honest I really don't care. What I DO know is that we have no business being there and should have left immediately after removing the Taliban from power. The reason we didn't is the same as ever,too many people making too much money from our being there. Follow the money. Beyond that any other information is just noise,not reason.
wazzy ! What's the story over at el pee and Ms. RimJob JR ?
zaaaahhhhhhup! What's the story over at el pee and Ms. RimJob JR ? Equipment SNAFU. I hear the patient won't recoup for 7-10 days... ITMT, 4um's getting a nice audition.
-- The Invisible Have Rights Too
Hear ya. The reason we didn't is the same as ever,too many people making too much money from our being there. Partly, no doubt, but this aimless mission also happens to tie up huge resources and assets there as well and in Iraq, preventing them from defending the Constitution here - if you get my drift.
-- The Invisible Have Rights Too
Yes,I get your drift,but I don't agree with it. Things would have to be a LOT worse than they are now before the US military would step forward and take control in the US. At a minimum there would have to be widespread rioting with cities burning and the near total collapse of government. And that's for starters.
#2. To: Cynicom (#1)
#3. To: christine (#0)
#4. To: sneakypete (#3)
#5. To: christine (#0)
#6. To: Sam Houston (#5)
Eisenhower's prophecy came true. This country is a captive of the MIC. We are all their slaves.
#7. To: Sam Houston, Cynicom (#5)
#8. To: buckeroo (#6)
(Edited)
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#9. To: randge (#8)
Our real objectives involve staying in the region as long as possible. Our real objectives involve providing Iran with the surround sound of our artillery fire. Our real objectives involve jacking around with Russia in their own back yard.
#10. To: buckeroo (#9)
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#11. To: randge (#10)
#12. To: buckeroo, randge, Original_Intent (#11)
It is about maintenance of stable markets ensuring tranquility on the home-front.
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#13. To: buckeroo, farmfriend, Original_Intent (#11)
It is about maintenance of stable markets ensuring tranquility on the home-front.
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#14. To: randge, farmfriend, Original_Intent (#13)
Stability? When do you remember stability?
1950 Communist North Korea invades South Korea. President Truman sends American troops to defend South Korea. The U.S. goes on to lead forces from 15 other nations in the Korean War (1950–1953).
There has not been a day in my life where the USA has not been creating conflict or meddling/interfering around the world. But that is largely because the USA is a superpower and must exert presence to ensure homeland security. The obvious influence of the CIA has lead to this enormous disparity about real objectives and the results. As a nation, we are feared anymore. We have lost respect from everyone around the world. And I should know, too as I travel extensively and survey where I can.
#15. To: randge (#13)
Stability? When do you remember stability?
#16. To: Cynicom (#15)
Back in the 1930s we had stability for years.
#17. To: buckeroo (#16)
(Edited)
#18. To: buckeroo (#11)
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#19. To: Cynicom (#17)
Can we afford to give Obama six long years????? I dont think so.
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#20. To: randge (#19)
We shall not abide such. Not on our lives.
#21. To: Cynicom (#17)
Proof...FDR had six long years to make repairs and things got worse.
#22. To: buckeroo (#21)
#23. To: randge (#18)
There are those among us, and I would hope that I could number you among them, that feel that we have everything we need at home. What do we really need from other folks? Chromium?? If you add it all up, the US has the greateset concentration of hydrocarbons of any nation on Earth. If you add in our contiguous neighbors we could be sitting quite pretty.
#24. To: Cynicom (#22)
It went downhill when the world elite decided war was the answer to world hunger.
#25. To: buckeroo, Cynicom (#24)
American interests controlling the military actions there only want the pipelines.
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#26. To: christine (#0)
As the Obama administration expands U.S. involvement in Afghanistan, military experts are warning that the United States is taking on security and political commitments that will last at least a decade and a cost that will probably eclipse that of the Iraq war.
#27. To: sneakypete (#3)
We will still be there,protecting and supporting those parasites 30 years from now.
#28. To: Cynicom (#22)
It went downhill when the world elite decided war was the answer to world hunger.
#29. To: farmfriend (#25)
#30. To: buckeroo (#29)
The issues in Afghanistan have nothing to do with narcotics.
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#31. To: farmfriend (#30)
#32. To: buckeroo (#31)
#33. To: buckeroo (#31)
Au contraire, my dear.
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#34. To: buckeroo (#31)
#35. To: christine (#34)
#36. To: christine (#34)
#37. To: buckeroo, christine, all (#35)
#38. To: buckeroo (#35)
Yeah. It is indisputable. Puleze don't start the "truther faerie tale" again. This has been a fine thread so far.
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#39. To: Jethro Tull (#32)
As a racist nation, the chickens were coming home to roost. Certainly you agree.
#40. To: buckeroo (#39)
Here is what I know and have always maintained: a pile of ignorant Muslims under the direction of Osama bin Laden bombed America.
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#41. To: Original_Intent (#37)
#42. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#41)
You can't find one thread of evidence concerning government conspiratorial involvement about 9/11; just futile attempts to bring cohesive forces after wards.
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#43. To: farmfriend (#40)
#44. To: farmfriend (#42)
#45. To: buckeroo (#44)
You already have my email addy.
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#46. To: farmfriend (#45)
#47. To: buckeroo (#43)
Somehow, earlier on I knew that this thread would become majick truther faerie tale stuff for the weak of mind, brainless or infant minded. So go ahead and convince me. It better be good too.
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#48. To: buckeroo (#46)
What is the content or title? What is the Internet link?
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#49. To: buckeroo (#46)
What is the content or title? What is the Internet link?
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#50. To: buckeroo (#35)
#51. To: farmfriend (#47)
I've got lots of good videos that show the government for what it is including cops posing as protesters trying to start a riot. Great stuff.
#52. To: buckeroo (#51)
Here is footage of GWBush reading about Pet Goats with a class of kids while being informed of the Twin Towers fiasco; he didn't give a damn:
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#53. To: All (#51)
#54. To: farmfriend (#52)
#55. To: buckeroo (#54)
#56. To: buckeroo (#53)
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#57. To: buckeroo (#54)
But, the truth is: America had nothing to do with the trigger mechanisms. All you see is ineptitude and silly blunders in governance before and after the event.
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#58. To: christine (#50)
#59. To: buckeroo (#53)
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#60. To: christine (#55)
#61. To: buckeroo (#11)
The US maintains about 25% of the world's economy
#62. To: farmfriend (#59)
www.righttokeepandbeararms.com
#63. To: farmfriend (#59)
#64. To: Sam Houston (#61)
That's an out-of-date figure. I'd say it's below 20 by now. The U.S.
#65. To: Sam Houston (#61)
And just in case you didn't think I saw your 20% error that you claim I created, here is some news from the World Bank proving I was correct about the economic strength of America. America stands at about 24% of world economic transactions.
Rank Country GDP (millions of USD) — 
World62,250,000 — 
European Union18,850,000 1 
United States14,330,000 2 
Japan4,844,000 3 
People's Republic of China4,222,000 4 
Germany3,818,000 5 
France2,978,000 6 
United Kingdom2,787,000 7 
Italy 2,399,000 8 
Russia1,757,000 9 
Spain1,683,000 10 
Brazil1,665,000 11 
Canada1,564,000 12 
India1,237,000 13 
Mexico1,143,000 14 
Australia1,069,000 15 
Netherlands909,500 16 
South Korea857,500 17 
Turkey798,900 18 
Poland 567,400 19 
Belgium530,600 20 
Sweden512,900 21 
Indonesia510,800 22 
Switzerland492,600 23 
Norway481,100 24 
Saudi Arabia467,700 25 
Austria432,400 26 
Taiwan401,600 27 
Iran382,300 28 
Greece373,500 29 
Denmark369,600 30 
Argentina338,700 31 
Venezuela 331,800 32 
South Africa300,400 33 
Finland287,600 34 
Ireland285,000 35 
Thailand272,100 36 
United Arab Emirates270,000 37 
Portugal255,500 38 
Colombia249,800 — 
Hong Kong223,800 39 
Nigeria220,300 40 
Czech Republic217,200 41 
Malaysia 214,700 42 
Romania213,900 43 
Ukraine198,000 44 
Israel188,700 45 
Chile181,500 46 
Philippines172,300 47 
Algeria171,300 48 
Hungary164,300 49 
Pakistan160,900 50 
Kuwait159,700 51 
Egypt158,300 52 
Singapore 154,500 53 
Kazakhstan141,200 54 
New Zealand135,700 55 
Peru131,400 56 
Qatar116,900 57 
Libya108,500 58 
Slovakia100,600 59 
Angola95,950 60 
Iraq93,800 61 
Vietnam90,880 62 
Morocco90,497 63 
Bangladesh 83,040 64 
Croatia63,950 65 
Sudan62,190 66 
Belarus57,680 67 
Luxembourg57,610 68 
Slovenia57,010 69 
Oman56,320 70 
Cuba55,180 71 
Ecuador54,670 72 
Azerbaijan53,260 73 
Serbia52,180 74 
Bulgaria 51,930 75 
Lithuania48,750 76 
Dominican Republic45,690 77 
Syria44,490 78 
Sri Lanka42,160 79 
Tunisia41,770 80 
Guatemala36,280 81 
Latvia33,900 82 
Kenya31,420 83 
Costa Rica30,380 84 
Turkmenistan28,820 85 
Uruguay 28,350 86 
Lebanon28,020 87 
Yemen27,560 88 
Uzbekistan26,620 89 
North Korea26,200 90 
Cyprus25,590 91 
Estonia25,210 92 
Ethiopia25,080 93 
Cameroon25,000 94 
Trinidad and Tobago24,610 95 
Ivory Coast23,780 96 
Panama 23,420 97 
El Salvador22,280 98 
Tanzania20,630 99 
Equatorial Guinea20,160 100 
Bahrain19,680 101 
Bosnia and Herzegovina19,360 — 
Macau19,200 102 
Jordan19,120 103 
Iceland19,020 104 
Bolivia18,940 105 
Ghana17,720 106 
Brunei 17,180 107 
Paraguay16,360 108 
Gabon15,910 109 
Zambia15,230 110 
Uganda15,040 111 
Senegal13,900 112 
Botswana13,810 113 
Honduras13,780 114 
Burma13,700 115 
Albania13,520 116 
Jamaica13,470 117 
Republic of the Congo 13,350 118 
Georgia13,280 119 
Democratic Republic of the Congo12,960 120 
Afghanistan12,850 121 
Nepal12,640 122 
Armenia12,070 123 
Cambodia10,820 124 
Mozambique9,788 125 
Madagascar9,729 126 
Republic of Macedonia9,624 127 
Chad9,106 128 
Mali 8,776 129 
Malta8,584 130 
Burkina Faso8,242 131 
Mauritius8,128 132 
Namibia7,781 133 
Haiti6,966 134 
Benin6,940 135 
The Bahamas6,935 — 
West Bank and Gaza6,641 136 
Nicaragua6,561 137 
Papua New Guinea6,363 138 
Moldova6,197 139 
Niger5,322 140 
Laos5,187 — 
Jersey5,100 141 
Kyrgyzstan5,050 142 
Liechtenstein4,993 143 
Mongolia 4,991 144 
Tajikistan4,788 — 
Aruba4,548 145 
Zimbabwe4,548f 146 
Montenegro4,515 147 
Guinea4,454 148 
Malawi4,082 149 
Rwanda4,027 — 
French Polynesia3,800 150 
Fiji3,783 151 
Barbados3,777 152 
Mauritania3,625 — New Caledonia3,300 — 
Kosovo 3,237 153 
Togo3,009 154 
Suriname2,984 155 
Swaziland2,968 — 
Guam2,773 — 
Guernsey2,742 — 
Isle of Man2,719 156 
Somalia2,600 157 
Central African Republic2,087 158 
Sierra Leone1,971 159 
Cape Verde1,845 — 
Faroe Islands 1,700 — 
Greenland1,700 160 
Lesotho1,652 161 
Eritrea1,479 162 
Belize1,383 163 
Bhutan1,368 164 
Maldives1,296 165 
Guyana1,134 166 
Antigua and Barbuda1,126 — 
Gibraltar1,066 167 
San Marino1,048 168 
Saint Lucia 1,031 169 
Djibouti973 170 
Liberia926 171 
Burundi903 — 
British Virgin Islands839.7 172 
The Gambia779 173 
Seychelles779 174 
Grenada657 — 
Northern Mariana Islands633.4 175 
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines597 176 
Vanuatu560 177 
Saint Kitts and Nevis 559 179 
Comoros557 180 
Samoa537 181 
East Timor489 182 
Solomon Islands460 182 
Guinea-Bissau442 183 
Dominica365 — 
American Samoa333.8 184 
Tonga258 185 
Micronesia232 — 
Cook Islands183 186 
Palau 164 187 
São Tomé and Príncipe160 188 
Marshall Islands144 — 
Anguilla108.9 189 
Kiribati71 190 
Tuvalu14.94 — 
Niue10.01
#66. To: buckeroo (#65)
"economic transactions"
#67. To: Sam Houston (#66)
China slowed down, but has not had a down quarter yet. I don't know about India.
#68. To: F16Fighter (#27)
We will still be there,protecting and supporting those parasites 30 years from now.
#69. To: farmfriend (#57)
#70. To: sneakypete (#68)
#71. To: buckeroo (#67)
Some folks around the world consider us as living GODS because of this average wealth disparity amongst nations. You can't get around it.
#72. To: Ragin1, farmfriend, buckeroo (#69)
#73. To: christine (#70)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams 
#74. To: christine (#72)
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#75. To: Ragin1 (#69)
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#76. To: sneakypete (#68)
We ARE stoopid for doing this. I have said it before and I will say it again,where we screwed up was in not calling all the tribal chiefs together after removing the Taliban from power,and telling them,"We are done here. Now it's up to you to form your own government and take care of your own problems. If you want a Islamic government,that's fine with us as long as you don't try to cause us any more grief. If you are friendly,we may even give you a few bucks for reconstruction and send some skilled people to tell you how to build and fix things.
#77. To: christine, sneakypete (#70)
here's the problem with your scenario, pete. we're not there for the reasons you enumerate. that's simply the pretense.
#78. To: Rotara (#73)
#79. To: F16Fighter (#76)
Why ARE we still in Afghanistan again?
#80. To: sneakypete (#79)
As near as I can tell it is because defense related industries in states with powerful congresscritters from both branches of the ruling party are making too much money and employing too many people to make a pullout economically and politically practical.
#81. To: F16Fighter (#80)
Have we an "official" reason beside raiding opium fields and building bases?
#82. To: F16Fighter (#78)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#83. To: Rotara (#82)
#84. To: sneakypete (#81)
What I DO know is that we have no business being there and should have left immediately after removing the Taliban from power.
#85. To: F16Fighter (#84)
but this aimless mission also happens to tie up huge resources and assets there as well and in Iraq, preventing them from defending the Constitution here - if you get my drift.
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