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Religion
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Title: School prayer charges stir protests
Source: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/14/criminal-pra
URL Source: http://www.washingtontimes.com
Published: Aug 17, 2009
Author: Julia Duin
Post Date: 2009-08-17 13:09:22 by freepatriot32
Ping List: *libertarians*     Subscribe to *libertarians*
Keywords: aclu, florida, prayer, jackbooted thugs
Views: 1458
Comments: 94

Students, teachers and local pastors are protesting over a court case involving a northern Florida school principal and an athletic director who are facing criminal charges and up to six months in jail over their offer of a mealtime prayer.

There have been yard signs, T-shirts and a mass student protest during graduation ceremonies this spring on behalf of Pace High School Principal Frank Lay and school athletic director Robert Freeman, who will go on trial Sept. 17 at a federal district court in Pensacola for breaching the conditions of a lawsuit settlement reached last year with the American Civil Liberties Union.

"I have been defending religious freedom issues for 22 years, and I've never had to defend somebody who has been charged criminally for praying," said Mathew Staver, founder and chairman of Liberty Counsel, the Orlando-based legal group that is defending the two school officials.

An ACLU official said the school district has allowed "flagrant" violations of the First Amendment for years.

"The defendants all admitted wrongdoing," said Daniel Mach, director of litigation for its freedom of religion program. "For example, the Pace High School teachers handbook asks teachers to 'embrace every opportunity to inculcate, by precept and example, the practice of every Christian virtue.' "

The fight involving the ACLU, the school district and several devout Christian employees began last August when the ACLU sued Santa Rosa County Schools on behalf of two students who had complained privately to the group's Florida affiliate, claiming some teachers and administrators were allowing prayers at school events such as graduations, orchestrating separate religiously themed graduation services, and "proselytizing" students during class and after school.

In January, the Santa Rosa County School District settled out of court with the ACLU, agreeing to several things, including a provision to bar all school employees from promoting or sponsoring prayers during school-sponsored events; holding school events at church venues when a secular alternative was available; or promoting their religious beliefs or attempting to convert students in class or during school-sponsored events.

Mr. Staver said the district also agreed to forbid senior class President Mary Allen from speaking at the school's May 30 graduation ceremony on the chance that the young woman, a known Christian, might say something religious.

"She was the first student body president in 33 years not allowed to speak," he said. Subscribe to *libertarians*

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 55.

#3. To: freepatriot32 (#0)

The district also agreed to forbid senior class President Mary Allen from speaking at the school's May 30 graduation ceremony on the chance that the young woman, a known Christian, might say something religious.

God forbid, because as we all know, none of those loony Christian Founders NEVER mentioned "God" or "Jesus" or "The Almighty" in their writings, speeches, or letters.

"She was the first student body president in 33 years not allowed to speak," he said.

PRAISE ALLAH!! PRAISE 0BAMA!! PRAISE GAIA!! PRAISE NIETZCHE!!

Liberator  posted on  2009-08-17   13:39:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: F16Fighter (#3)

PRAISE ALLAH!! PRAISE 0BAMA!! PRAISE GAIA!! PRAISE NIETZCHE!!

My new Pakistani Muslim acquaintance, whose daughter attends the same school as mine, rather likes bluegrass music.

Who knew?

Prefrontal Vortex  posted on  2009-08-17   15:26:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Prefrontal Vortex (#4)

My new Pakistani Muslim acquaintance, whose daughter attends the same school as mine, rather likes bluegrass music.

Who knew?

Muslims can be almost "normal"...eating hamburgers and fries and listening to bluegrass...until Allah "orders" them to fly passenger planes, wear bomb-belts, and stab cartoonists.

Liberator  posted on  2009-08-17   18:03:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: F16Fighter (#23)

Muslims can be almost "normal"

Christians can be almost "normal"...eating hamburgers and fries and listening to bluegrass...until their governments order them off to drop all kinds of high powered ordnance on the heads of friends, foes and neutrals alike.

I don't think it would take much research to substantiate the contention that Christians have killed more Muslims than the other way around. There may be many reasons for it, but the chief one is probably that they are just plain better at it.

randge  posted on  2009-08-17   18:19:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: randge (#36)

Christians can be almost "normal"...eating hamburgers and fries and listening to bluegrass...until their governments order them off to drop all kinds of high powered ordnance on the heads of friends, foes and neutrals alike.

Waaaay to generalized a claim to be taken seriously, randge.

So your beef with Christians is that when they join the US Armed Forces, that they follow orders?

Don't non-Christians follow those same orders?

Liberator  posted on  2009-08-17   18:24:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: F16Fighter (#40) (Edited)

Waaaay to generalized a claim to be taken seriously, randge.

That's a serious challenge, and it deserves a serious answer. The Muslims have posed no military challenge to Christian forces since Polish armies ran the Turks out of Austria in 1683. Since that time Christian forces were on the ascendancy everywhere as European nations extended influence and empire across the globe. I will admit that while victories in the field are not solely dependent upon inflicting the preponderance of casualties on a foe, they are commonly the result of it.

It would be quite a labor to tote up all the casualties suffered on both sides of all conficts waged between Mulims and Chirstians. But one could safely say that Christian armies have not been besting Muslim armies for the last 400 years for want of killing them.

So your beef with Christians is that when they join the US Armed Forces,that they follow orders?

This is the charge of course that I have heard traditionally laid at the feet of the nazis. Yeah, lots of guys signed up for what I consider misbegotten reasons. They invaded a country that had not attacked their nation in any wise. They did this irrespective of religion on the whole, I believe. They did it in response to what rulers have traditionally used to raise armies - propaganda. Some of course did it for the job and some for the adventure. I think that, as a result, lots of Iraqis - and Americans - have died for nothing.

Don't non-Christians follow those same orders?

Yes, they do, and fools they are.

randge  posted on  2009-08-17   19:15:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: randge (#48)

That's a serious challenge, and it deserves a serious answer.

Let's recap.

You're the one who just claimed, "[Christians'] governments order them [Christians] off to drop all kinds of high powered ordnance on the heads of friends, foes and neutrals alike."

REALLY? In the name of who?? Or what?? Don't tell me you mean to say bombs and "ordnance" are dropped on humanity "in the name of Jesus Christ"?

The Muslims have posed no military challenge to Christian forces since Polish armies ran the Turks out of Austria in 1683. Since that time Christian forces were on the ascendancy everywhere as European nations extended influence and empire across the globe.

Firstly, there have been no such "Christian forces" fighting anyone anywhere since 1683 - only sovereign nations and tribes battling offensively or defensively in the name of their respective Kingdom over existing territory and resources or their own empire. AS HAD BEEN THE CASE SINCE DAY ONE.

Secondly, the post-1683 Ottoman Empire and its Muslim surrogates have NEVER stopped through pushing around the infidels were left within its Empire or sphere of influence, or whatever territory their Muslim brethren infest till this day.

It would be quite a labor to tote up all the casualties suffered on both sides of all conficts waged between Mulims and Chirstians. But one could safely say that Christian armies have not been besting Muslim armies for the last 400 years for want of killing them.

Attributed to the mercy of Christendom and their ethics if anything.

This (following orders) is the charge of course that I have heard traditionally laid at the feet of the nazis. Yeah, lots of guys signed up for what I consider misbegotten reasons. They invaded a country that had not attacked their nation in any wise. They did this irrespective of religion on the whole, I believe. They did it in response to what rulers have traditionally used to raise armies - propaganda. Some of course did it for the job and some for the adventure. I think that, as a result, lots of Iraqis - and Americans - have died for nothing.

Let's NOT get crazy and compare Nazis "following orders" to "Americans following orders," ok? Geez...

While I don't approve of the invasion and occupation and "Nation Building" of Iraq at all, ALL of America was victimized by the propagandist reasons of being there in the first place; But while American forces were there, they have happened to have rebuilt a substantial part of Iraq's infrastructure, imparted a benevolence, and have helped establish "Democratic" form government and establishing civil rights. American Forces have performed brilliantly and without a brutality. Was it all worth it? Of course not.

Bottom line?

YOU singularly blamed and held American "Christians" accountable as a "Christian" force who was responsible for "dropping ordnance" squarely on the "heads of friends, foes and neutrals alike."

Your charge is nothing but fallacious bullsh*t which indiscriminately slandered good, patriotic Christian fighting American men and women who believe they are defending America.

I HOPE you're better than that.

Liberator  posted on  2009-08-17   20:29:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 55.

#65. To: F16Fighter (#55)

I don't think that the forces used by Christian kings over the centuries were morally superior to the Muslims, nor do I believe that the Muslims were any better men than their Christian counterparts.

Religion was used as a whip hand on both sides.

I am carry a big torch for Western civilization though. We should not let our world be subsumed by theirs. There would, ordinarily, be no fear of that, but our rulers insist on getting us involved in quarrels over there that are nor in our interest, and who is it that imports all those folks over here? They come here in numbers in direct proportion to the amount of mayhem that we are stirring up on that side of the world.

And don't kid yourself about what we've built in Iraq. Life is still a piece of s**t over there and, materially anyway, they still have a ways to go to get back to prewar standards in many respects. I've talked to men who were there not long ago, and large parts of Baghdad are still short of electricity for significant portions of the day.

What we did in Iraq wasn't particularly "Christian" in my humble opinion.

randge  posted on  2009-08-17 20:56:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 55.

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