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Dead Constitution
See other Dead Constitution Articles

Title: Sarah and the Death Panels
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://townhall.com/columnists/PatB ... ah_and_the_death_panels?page=2
Published: Aug 21, 2009
Author: Pat Buchanan
Post Date: 2009-08-21 08:37:46 by Eric Stratton
Keywords: None
Views: 472
Comments: 54

Sarah and the Death Panels
Pat Buchanan
Friday, August 21, 2009

"The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil."

Of Sarah Palin it may be said: The lady knows how to frame an issue. Culture of Corruption by Michelle Malkin FREE

And while she has been fairly criticized for hyperbole about the end-of-life counselors in the House bill, she drew such attention to the provision that Democrats chose to dump it rather than debate it

And understandably so. For if Congress enacts universal health care coverage, we are undeniably headed for a medical system of rationed care that must inevitably deny care to some terminally ill and elderly, which will shorten their lives, perhaps by years. Consider:

Democrats call Medicare the model of government-run universal health care. But Medicare is a system whereby 140 million working Americans pay 2.9 percent of all wages and salaries into a fund to pay for health care for 42 million mostly older Americans. And Medicare is already going bust.

If Obamacare is passed, the cost of health care for today's 47 million uninsured will also land on those 140 million. And if Obama puts 12 million to 20 million illegal aliens on a "path to citizenship," as he promises, they, too, will have their health care provided by taxpayers.

Here is the crusher. The Census Bureau projects that, by 2050, the U.S. population will explode to 435 million. As most of these folks will be immigrants, their children and grandchildren, the cost of their heath care would also have to be largely born by middle-class and wealthy taxpayers.

Now factor this in.

In 2000, the average American male in a population of 300 million lived to 74; the average female to 80. But in 2050, the average male in a population of 435 million Americans will live to 80 and the average female to 86. And, according to U.N. figures, 21 percent of the U.S. population in 2050, some 91 million Americans, will be over 65, and 7.6 percent, or 33 million Americans, will be over 80 -- and consuming health care in ever-increasing measures.

Now if a primary purpose of Obamacare is to "bend the curve" of soaring health care costs, and half of those costs are incurred in the last six months of life, and the number of seniors will grow by scores of millions, how do you cut costs without rationing care? And how do you ration care without denying millions of elderly and aged the prescriptions, procedures and operations they need to stay alive?

Consider two beloved Americans: Ted Kennedy and Ronald Reagan.

Since he was diagnosed with brain cancer more than a year ago, Sen. Kennedy has had excellent care, including surgery and chemotherapy, which have kept him alive and, until very recently, active.

For a decade, President Reagan, because of round-the-clock care, lived with an Alzheimer's that had robbed him of his memory and left him unable to recognize his own family and close friends.

In the future, will a man of Kennedy's age, with brain cancer but without the means of offsetting his own health care costs, be kept alive, operated on, given chemotherapy -- by a government obsessed with cutting health care costs?

Will a bureaucracy desperate to cut costs keep alive for years the tens of thousands of destitute 80- and 90-year-old patients with Alzheimer's, as was done with Ronald Reagan?

What if, in 2050, Palin and her husband are not here. And 42-year-old Trig, with Down syndrome, has been in an institution for years, and the cost of his care and that of hundreds of thousands like him with Down syndrome is draining the resources of the health care system?

Will there not be voices softly suggesting a quiet and merciful end?

In Oregon, the law permits doctors to assist in the suicide of terminal patients who wish to end their lives. Let us assume numerous patients have Alzheimer's and, so, cannot be part of the decision to end their lives. Who then makes the decision to continue or end life? Would it be unfair to call the decision-makers in those cases a death panel?

Almost a third of all unborn babies in America have their lives terminated each year with the consent of their mothers. Fifty million since Roe v. Wade have never seen the light of day. For many, the quality of life now supersedes in value the sanctity of life. That is who we are.

Between 2012 and 2030, 74 million baby boomers will retire, cease to be the major contributors to Medicare and become the major drain on Medicare. How long will an overtaxed labor force in a de-Christianized America be wiling to pay the bill to keep all those aging boomers alive?

Rationed care is coming, and the death panels will not be far behind.

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#4. To: Eric Stratton (#0)

Here is the crusher. The Census Bureau projects that, by 2050, the U.S. population will explode to 435 million. As most of these folks will be immigrants, their children and grandchildren, the cost of their heath care would also have to be largely born by middle-class and wealthy taxpayers.

Great point, and one we tried to explain to the trained Obama seals when they began clapping at the mention of government health care. Could they give us an estimate of the ultimate cost of this behemoth? No. Did they care that illegal aliens would now be our permanent medical wards? No. Where have the Obama'tards gone? Long time passing.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2009-08-21   9:56:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Eric Stratton (#0)
(Edited)

So socialized medicine will kill our grandparents despite the fact that medicine is already socialized for everyone over 65?

And never mind Sarah Palin lied about death panels, because it worked?

Doesn't this bull s**t insult conservatives? They really think you are that stupid I guess.

Rhino369  posted on  2009-08-21   10:02:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: lucysmom (#3)

I hope the Palins have good health insurance with a high lifetime cap that can't be cancelled, otherwise Trig's medical care will be paid for by the state.

I bet her healthcare was being provided by government until Palin quit her job as governer. Hmmm, maybe thats why she quit. Alaska was trying to kill her daughter.

Rhino369  posted on  2009-08-21   10:03:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: lucysmom (#3)

She's not allowed to think outside the box and criticize government, because government might, without any consent on her part, provide a "service" to her son in some vague misty future?

Is the only option "agreement" with government then?

If a person uses the Post Office, does that then mean that they're not allowed to be against any future government program proposals?

Because that's what your post insinuates.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-08-21   10:22:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Rhino369 (#5)

So socialized medicine will kill our grandparents despite the fact that medicine is already socialized for everyone over 65?

When you want to cover "everyone" for "less," you will eventually have to do cost/benefit analysis.

All of a sudden dissent is no longer patriotic.

4 givan 1  posted on  2009-08-21   10:29:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: 4 givan 1 (#8)

When you want to cover "everyone" for "less," you will eventually have to do cost/benefit analysis.

And you'll have to have bureaucrats decide who gets covered and who doesn't for critical treatments.

Sarah used a bit of hyperbole in language use, but the fact fundamentally is true. Of course there is no provision called "Death Panels", which is why liberals go around screaming that it's a lie. They're using the words of the rhetoric literally, in order to deny what is actually in the bill but not called the words of the rhetoric.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-08-21   10:32:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: SonOfLiberty (#9)

And you'll have to have bureaucrats decide who gets covered and who doesn't for critical treatments.

Instead of the corporate bureaucrats who do so now?

A business has every incentive to provide as little coverage as possible. Every dime it doesn't spend is profit. Government, for better or worse, doesn't really care. In fact if history is any guide, they'll probably spend too much, provide too much service.

Sarah used a bit of hyperbole in language use, but the fact fundamentally is true.

No, it was fundamentally false. She picked a specific portion of the bill and called it a death panel. When in fact that section of the bill didn't have any power to deny coverage, it was basically therapy for people who were dying. This was rhetoric, it was a downright lie.

Sarah Palin's understand of the health care debate is strong as her knowledge of the walstreet bailout, that she didn't understand during the election.

Rhino369  posted on  2009-08-21   10:48:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Rhino369 (#10)

Instead of the corporate bureaucrats who do so now?

You're allowed to pay for your own medical care, without insurance, if you want. Ever try negotiating with a medical provider? They will negotiate and give you DEEP discounts if you don't have insurance.

And, it should be pointed out, that saying "but but but...insurance" doesn't mean that it's right for government.

A business has every incentive to provide as little coverage as possible. Every dime it doesn't spend is profit.

That's why every time anybody gets very sick and goes into a hospital, they die immediately.

Oh wait, they don't most of the time. Odd isn't it?

Government, for better or worse, doesn't really care. In fact if history is any guide, they'll probably spend too much, provide too much service.

Yeah, like they provide too much service in military hospitals. Right.

No, it was fundamentally false. She picked a specific portion of the bill and called it a death panel. When in fact that section of the bill didn't have any power to deny coverage, it was basically therapy for people who were dying. This was rhetoric, it was a downright lie.

There will still be bureaucrats that decide that grandma has outlived her taxability...er...usefulness and should just be given a pill instead of a heart transplant. There's no denying that. Obama was pretty clear that he'd give a pill instead of medical treatment as well.

Like it or not, the charge is correct, even if you don't like the person giving it.

Sarah Palin's understand of the health care debate is strong as her knowledge of the walstreet bailout, that she didn't understand during the election.

I wouldn't argue that she's the sharpest knife in the drawer. On the other hand, Barry is at about the same intelligence level and some of the less mentally gifted folks seem willing to hand over life and death medical decisions to him. So in the end, arguing about intelligence has little bearing on government policies.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-08-21   10:57:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: SonOfLiberty (#9)

Sarah used a bit of hyperbole in language use, but the fact fundamentally is true. Of course there is no provision called "Death Panels", which is why liberals go around screaming that it's a lie.

Let 'em defend circle the wagon of this provision and all provisions of this sh*tty bill.

Isn't it funny how Liberals have been using weaselly euphemisms for decades in order to lie about their true intentions, yet now that they're used against them (by Palin of all people) they squawk?

This is a beautiful thing; By taking the offensive Sarah Palin actually stopped the Left dead in its tracks as everyone NOW scrutinized this particular "Death Panel" provision.

Since unshackling herself from her thankless Alaska governorship, the woman has become quite a weapon against the Left's madness.

Liberator  posted on  2009-08-21   11:05:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Rhino369 (#10)

In fact if history is any guide, they'll [gubmint] probably spend too much, provide too much service.

You have GOT to be kidding...

Government "provide too much service"??

She [Palin] picked a specific portion of the bill and called it a death panel. When in fact that section of the bill didn't have any power to deny coverage, it was basically therapy for people who were dying. This was rhetoric, it was a downright lie.

What's the matter? Don't much like euphemisms anymore?

Isn't "Affirmative Action" actually "Racial profiling"?

Aren't "Progressives" nothing more than "Liberals"?

Isn't "pro-Choice" code for "pro-baby-murder"?

Potentially 0bamaCare is riddled with several "Death Panel"-type provisions - So much so that 0bama and the Dems have panicked. The Senate is even stripping "end of life" counseling language - not that it'll matter much in any case. This thing is DOA.

Btw, a Federal Health Board, aka DEATH PANEL established by 0bamaCare would be charged with collecting data on various forms of treatment for different conditions to assess which are the most effective and efficient. Those recommendations may well decide that Gramma is a lost cause and treatment denied.

Liberator  posted on  2009-08-21   11:23:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: F16Fighter (#13)

One wonders too, if there were no "death panels", why did the dems say they were taking those provisions out of the bill? How can you take out, what didn't exist?

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-08-21   11:27:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: SonOfLiberty (#11)

I wouldn't argue that she's the sharpest knife in the drawer.

SoL, Palin's degree of intelligence needs no disclaimer; Harvard "educations" are grossly overrated, and common sense underrated.

On the other hand, Barry is at about the same intelligence level and some of the less mentally gifted folks seem willing to hand over life and death medical decisions to him. So in the end, arguing about intelligence has little bearing on government policies.

There ya go...Yet, I would argue that 0bama, Pelosi, Kennedy, etal. are actually stupid and reality-challenged.

Liberator  posted on  2009-08-21   11:27:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: F16Fighter (#15) (Edited)

I don't actually think she's stupid. Is she the smartest person ever? Well, no. But neither am I. Nor was Einstein.

It would be nice if the socialists could just sit down and shut up about her. While I'm no ragin Palin fan per se, the way they go on about her it's clear that it has more to do with her daring to be a woman who made it without their feminist theory help, than it is her politics. I've never seen such hate filled misogyny in my life, always raised whenever any woman dare to succeed without being a groveling sneering feminazi.

EDIT: Obligatory that I include this. She's smokin' hot in ways I wish other women could be after they have kids. Nothing sparkles like a pretty woman who takes care of herself. :)

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-08-21   11:30:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: SonOfLiberty (#14)

One wonders too, if there were no "death panels", why did the dems say they were taking those provisions out of the bill? How can you take out, what didn't exist?

Yeah, "Oooops!" These people do NOTHING but lie a thousand different ways...

That particular provision that Palin red-dotted is just the start of tearing this thing apart and exposing 0bamaCare as "Take-A-Pill-And-Shut-Up-And-Die-Already" Care.

Liberator  posted on  2009-08-21   11:32:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: SonOfLiberty (#11)

You're allowed to pay for your own medical care, without insurance, if you want. Ever try negotiating with a medical provider? They will negotiate and give you DEEP discounts if you don't have insurance.

And under the plans being proposed this wouldn't change.

That's why every time anybody gets very sick and goes into a hospital, they die immediately.

Oh wait, they don't most of the time. Odd isn't it?

Hospitals provide emergency coverage even if it gets denied by insurance. And of course the insurance companies must provide some level of service or be abandoned by customers. But the inventive is always to provide the cheapest service.

Yeah, like they provide too much service in military hospitals. Right.

They are better than the average private hospital in fact. But either way I wouldn't support a system in which the government directly ran healthcare like it does the VA. The government would only act as a payer.

There will still be bureaucrats that decide that grandma has outlived her taxability...er...usefulness and should just be given a pill instead of a heart transplant. There's no denying that. Obama was pretty clear that he'd give a pill instead of medical treatment as well.

Medicare wouldn't be changed at all. So that is just not true. If Palin wants to dissolve Medicare she should come out and say it.

Like it or not, the charge is correct, even if you don't like the person giving it.

It isn't correct, as I've shown.

I wouldn't argue that she's the sharpest knife in the drawer. On the other hand, Barry is at about the same intelligence level and some of the less mentally gifted folks seem willing to hand over life and death medical decisions to him.

You can say a lot about Obama, but I don't see how you'd assume he wasn't a smart guy. He graduated top ten percent at Harvard Law. He is undoubtedly a very intelligent man. That doesn't mean he is wise, or correct, but he is smart.

But Palin is stupid. I wouldn't necessary support someone because they were smart, but I'd never listen to a stupid person.

Rhino369  posted on  2009-08-21   11:36:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: SonOfLiberty (#14)

One wonders too, if there were no "death panels", why did the dems say they were taking those provisions out of the bill? How can you take out, what didn't exist?

It was counseling for end-of-life issues, that she called death panels. The democrats took it out because people believed Palin.

Guess what? In 2003 the Republican medicare bill first funded, counseling for end-of-life issues. So these "Death Panels" have been operating for 5 years! Holy s**t maybe they killed my grandmother! I better check.

Rhino369  posted on  2009-08-21   11:41:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: SonOfLiberty (#16)

I don't actually think she's stupid. Is she the smartest person ever? Well, no. But neither am I. Nor was Einstein.

No, she's not, but that's the Liberal-Left's argument that "discredits" her. They don't teach "Common Sense", "Honor", and "Honesty" at Harvard, do they?

It would be nice if the socialists could just sit down and shut up about her.

They can't. She represents the biggest threat against their agenda and bullsh*t; THIS is why they've pulled all the stops in trying to shut her down. With every b*tch and moan, Palin become that much stronger.

While I'm no ragin Palin fan per se, the way they go on about her it's clear that it has more to do with her daring to be a woman who made it without her help, than it is her politics. I've never seen such hate filled misogyny in my life, always raised whenever any woman dare to succeed without being a groveling sneering feminazi.

Yep. Palin represents all that they hate - independence, individualism, patriotism, guns, God, righteousness, grace, confidence, femininity ...while turning her nose up at gubmint...and lesbianism ;-)

Liberator  posted on  2009-08-21   11:42:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Rhino369 (#18)

And under the plans being proposed this wouldn't change.

Oh? So I don't have to get coverage and I won't have a legal penalty for opting out? If I, say, am an independent contractor or am self employed, I can just opt completely out and pay cash if I want, without penalty?

Great!

Hospitals provide emergency coverage even if it gets denied by insurance. And of course the insurance companies must provide some level of service or be abandoned by customers. But the inventive is always to provide the cheapest service.

Sounds good in theory, real life, I've watched many sick relatives be provided with excellent service and care when they got sick, and recovered, or had their life extended far beyond what it would have been had they received no care or the cheapest coverage.

Medicare wouldn't be changed at all. So that is just not true.

Take it up with Obama, he's the one who said that under his plan, he'd give an elderly woman a pain pill instead of a heart surgery (I believe it was, maybe it was some kind of transplant). I heard him plain as day say it.

You can say a lot about Obama, but I don't see how you'd assume he wasn't a smart guy. He graduated top ten percent at Harvard Law. He is undoubtedly a very intelligent man. That doesn't mean he is wise, or correct, but he is smart.

He thinks we have 57 states, that we were founded 20 centuries ago, that Austrians speak Austrian, he doesn't know enough to keep his mouth shut about local matters and calls people stupid without knowing the facts, and when he's not on teleprompter he can only marginally speak English. Graduating from Harvard Law doesn't mean you're smart, it just means you did what they asked you to do. I'm not stating that he's a blithering idiot per se, I'm just noting that he's not the super smart guy people seem to believe. Because he's not.

But Palin is stupid. I wouldn't necessary support someone because they were smart, but I'd never listen to a stupid person

No she's not. Please. I'm not her biggest fan by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm not going to adopt the mantra of the left simply because they make the claim. My disagreements are with some of her positions, there's no need for me to smear her and call her names in order to hold those disagreements.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-08-21   11:45:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: F16Fighter (#13)

You have GOT to be kidding...

Government "provide too much service"??

Yes the government loves wasting money, since it isn't actually their money. I'd agree that if government were actually running the hospitals they'd f**k it up terribly, but under the current plans they just act as an insurance agency. They won't be managing doctors. They'll just be cutting checks, something they do all too well.

What's the matter? Don't much like euphemisms anymore?

f**k, pay attention. Death Panel means a panel who decides you should die. End of life counseling is an old person talking to a psychologist about their death. They have no power over your treatment. They are there to help with facing ones mortality.

Isn't "Affirmative Action" actually "Racial profiling"?

Affirmative action and racial profiling don't describe the same things. One is job discrimination the other is a law enforcement technique.

Potentially 0bamaCare is riddled with several "Death Panel"-type provisions - So much so that 0bama and the Dems have panicked. The Senate is even stripping "end of life" counseling language - not that it'll matter much in any case. This thing is DOA.

There are no death panels. If there were, you could show us the provisions. But you can't.

Btw, a Federal Health Board, aka DEATH PANEL established by 0bamaCare would be charged with collecting data on various forms of treatment for different conditions to assess which are the most effective and efficient. Those recommendations may well decide that Gramma is a lost cause and treatment denied.

Collecting data, and recommending the best treatment methods apparently equals a death squad in Republican land.

Rhino369  posted on  2009-08-21   11:47:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Rhino369 (#19)

It was counseling for end-of-life issues, that she called death panels. The democrats took it out because people believed Palin.

And well that they did.

Remember, the income tax was only for the wealthiest 1% of the population at one time, and that parking meters in most cities were installed during World War II only to fund the war and would be taken out afterwards.

We all know where this is going. I'm sorry, but we're not the dupes that statists believe that we are.

Guess what? In 2003 the Republican medicare bill first funded, counseling for end-of-life issues. So these "Death Panels" have been operating for 5 years! Holy s**t maybe they killed my grandmother! I better check.

Wouldn't surprise me. The GOP is full of corrupt hacks and crooked players, just like the democrats. No big news there.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-08-21   11:48:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: SonOfLiberty (#21)

Oh? So I don't have to get coverage and I won't have a legal penalty for opting out? If I, say, am an independent contractor or am self employed, I can just opt completely out and pay cash if I want, without penalty?

Great!

You'll still get the s**t taxed out of you though.

Sounds good in theory, real life, I've watched many sick relatives be provided with excellent service and care when they got sick, and recovered, or had their life extended far beyond what it would have been had they received no care or the cheapest coverage.

Of course. I'm not saying the insurance companies are shit, and kill people. They do a fairly good job, but you must admit they have incentive to provide less coverage and the government does not.

Take it up with Obama, he's the one who said that under his plan, he'd give an elderly woman a pain pill instead of a heart surgery (I believe it was, maybe it was some kind of transplant). I heard him plain as day say it.

Got a link because thats pretty f**king crazy.

He thinks we have 57 states, that we were founded 20 centuries ago, that Austrians speak Austrian, he doesn't know enough to keep his mouth shut about local matters and calls people stupid without knowing the facts, and when he's not on teleprompter he can only marginally speak English.

Putting his foot in his mouth doesn't mean he isn't intelligent. The most intelligent people I know aren't great speakers. Of course that doesn't in any way show he is smart.

Graduating from Harvard Law doesn't mean you're smart, it just means you did what they asked you to do.

Not true. They grade on a strict curve, competing directly against each other. The average Harvard law student is in the top 1 percentile of intelligence, and is also a hard worker. And he did better than 90% of them.

I'm not stating that he's a blithering idiot per se, I'm just noting that he's not the super smart guy people seem to believe. Because he's not.

He's probably not a genius, but he is definitely a bright guy. Like I said, smart doesn't equal wise, or a good leader. His administration has been a disappointment to all so far.

No she's not. Please. I'm not her biggest fan by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm not going to adopt the mantra of the left simply because they make the claim. My disagreements are with some of her positions, there's no need for me to smear her and call her names in order to hold those disagreements.

The woman is clearly stupid. Not because she doesn't speak well, because she does. But because she shows no understanding of even basic issues. And I don't say this because she is a conservative. There are many extremely bright conservatives. She just isn't one of them.

Nothing she has ever done, or said has shown anything but a below average level of intelligence. She flunked out of terrible colleges, and has made a career of superficial political issues.

She is a bimbo.

Rhino369  posted on  2009-08-21   11:57:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: SonOfLiberty (#23)

And well that they did.

Remember, the income tax was only for the wealthiest 1% of the population at one time, and that parking meters in most cities were installed during World War II only to fund the war and would be taken out afterwards.

We all know where this is going. I'm sorry, but we're not the dupes that statists believe that we are.

You can't use the slippery slope argument when the counseling isn't at all like a death panel. They literally have nothing in common. Not one damn thing.

I'd support stripping it because if grandma wants counseling for dealing with the end of her life she can pay for it herself.

Rhino369  posted on  2009-08-21   11:59:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Rhino369 (#24)

You'll still get the s**t taxed out of you though.

And, I'll receive a legal penalty as well, if I refuse to participate.

So much for "you'll be able to do that after it as well" then I guess.

Got a link because thats pretty f**king crazy.

It was broadcast on the radio. Look it up on YouTube I guess is all I can suggest.

Putting his foot in his mouth doesn't mean he isn't intelligent. The most intelligent people I know aren't great speakers. Of course that doesn't in any way show he is smart.

Now see, here we go. When he does these things, it doesn't mean he's not intelligent and gosh, most intelligent people we know aren't great speakers. But the same things, turned to Palin (or that beauty contestant chick), equate to automatic screeches of "stupid!" and worse.

He's probably not a genius, but he is definitely a bright guy.

I honestly think that anybody so easily guided and manipulated like he was in his upbringing, given his known associates and how he parrots them nearly verbatim, tells me he's not too bright. He's smart enough to speak well without stuttering in speeches, and he presents himself well. Bright though? I think the jury is still out on that one.

The woman is clearly stupid. Not because she doesn't speak well, because she does. But because she shows no understanding of even basic issues.

Nor would you if you were ambushed by a reporter out to make you look stupid (as would I as well, or anybody). Again, I'm not stating she's the smartest cookie to come down the pike, but good lord, calling her stupid (and bimbo) is nothing but bile.

Like I said, smart doesn't equal wise, or a good leader. His administration has been a disappointment to all so far.

Well, we do agree on that. I actually had some hopes that he'd turn around some of the more onerous Bush policies (Patriot Act, DHS, domestic unwarranted wiretapping, etc), but he turned around and directly violated his entire anti-Bush campaign rhetoric by justifying each of these things. Meh.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-08-21   12:05:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Rhino369 (#25)

You can't use the slippery slope argument when the counseling isn't at all like a death panel. They literally have nothing in common. Not one damn thing.

You have to take the whole bill in context though. She's getting counseling, because she's being denied a new organ transplant/heart surgery, because she's just too gosh darn old to justify spending more money on.

I'd support stripping it because if grandma wants counseling for dealing with the end of her life she can pay for it herself.

I totally agree.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-08-21   12:07:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: SonOfLiberty (#1)

deleted

Eric Stratton  posted on  2009-08-21   19:42:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Jethro Tull (#4)

deleted

Eric Stratton  posted on  2009-08-21   20:00:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Eric Stratton (#29)

We're not going to recognize this country in 2020.

I don't recognize it now.

The other day I was trying to talk to a nice liberal lady. She eventually said that she thought we were both patriots, but singing from different hymnals.

I told her no, I wasn't a patriot, and I have no trouble saying so.

Anti-racism is code for white genocide

Prefrontal Vortex  posted on  2009-08-21   20:54:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Prefrontal Vortex (#30)

deleted

Eric Stratton  posted on  2009-08-21   22:06:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: 4 givan 1 (#8)

When you want to cover "everyone" for "less," you will eventually have to do cost/benefit analysis.

A few years back I read an article in "JAMA" that claimed if the health insurance companies did nothing more than adopt a universal insurance claim form, more than a hundred BILLION dollars a year could be saved in physicians’ billing costs. That pretty much pays the yearly cost of the House bill.

lucysmom  posted on  2009-08-21   23:18:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: lucysmom (#32)

A few years back the federal government forced the insurance industry to adopt universal claim forms, and a standard electronic format to submit them. It works pretty good, except for all the custom crap Medicare and Medicaid are allowed to require.

In 2007, the FBI reported on concern about white supremacists recruiting soldiers, saying "hundreds" of neo-Nazis were in the active military. But in April, a Department of Homeland Security report on extremism that reiterated much the same point was widely criticized by veterans groups and some conservative politicians as being unpatriotic, leading the Justice Department to retract the DHS report.

Critics acknowledge that extremism in the Army is a touchy political subject.

Dakmar  posted on  2009-08-21   23:23:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: SonOfLiberty (#7)

Because that's what your post insinuates.

Interesting that you would read it that way.

lucysmom  posted on  2009-08-21   23:23:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: lucysmom (#32)

That pretty much pays the yearly cost of the House bill.

Well, whom pays for the 43,000,000 illegal immigrants and otherwise uninsured idiots? Me? At increasing rates of taxation? I refuse to pay one more thin dime to this god-damned government.

Washington DC already took America to the cleaners around the world. Now, you think they can handle your physical health here in America?

The love of government is f**king America.

buckeroo  posted on  2009-08-21   23:25:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Rhino369 (#6)

I bet her healthcare was being provided by government until Palin quit her job as governer. Hmmm, maybe thats why she quit. Alaska was trying to kill her daughter.

As far as I know, there aren't any states that self-insure. I know that in California, state employees are insured by private companies and employees may choose what company and plan they wish.

Almost 25% of the total spending for private health insurance by employers is spent by government (tax payer funded).

I think Palin quit her job because she was hoping for better tax payer provided private insurance than the State of Alaska offers.

lucysmom  posted on  2009-08-21   23:41:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: buckeroo (#35)

Well, whom pays for the 43,000,000 illegal immigrants and otherwise uninsured idiots?

The same who that pays for the health of 43 million illegals now.

BTW, I am an uninsured idiot so have at it - flame away.

lucysmom  posted on  2009-08-21   23:46:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: lucysmom (#37)

BTW, I am... uninsured

Do you think being fined for not having insurance might motivate you to buy some?

In 2007, the FBI reported on concern about white supremacists recruiting soldiers, saying "hundreds" of neo-Nazis were in the active military. But in April, a Department of Homeland Security report on extremism that reiterated much the same point was widely criticized by veterans groups and some conservative politicians as being unpatriotic, leading the Justice Department to retract the DHS report.

Critics acknowledge that extremism in the Army is a touchy political subject.

Dakmar  posted on  2009-08-21   23:51:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: lucysmom (#37)

The same who that pays for the health of 43 million illegals now.

Don't even tell me you give a damn for those bastards that have come to America illegally. Why should I pay for them through government sponsored health-care reform?

I will revolt first, bringing blood into the publick streets. And I will kick the bastards out of Washington DC. America is or never was about f**king with my personal decisions for health.

buckeroo  posted on  2009-08-21   23:57:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Dakmar (#33)

A few years back the federal government forced the insurance industry to adopt universal claim forms, and a standard electronic format to submit them.

You're right, they did.

Medicaid is administered by private insurance companies.

lucysmom  posted on  2009-08-22   0:36:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: buckeroo (#39)

Why should I pay for them through government sponsored health-care reform?

You pay for them now, it just costs more.

I will revolt first, bringing blood into the publick streets.

If you haven't revolted in the past several decades, why would you revolt then?

lucysmom  posted on  2009-08-22   0:40:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: lucysmom (#41)

Whom made you the sponsor of my medical care? I don't pay for anyone other than fascist PIGS telling me I already pay anyway.

You are looking at one tired American about to take his guns out of the safe when s**t is forced down my throat.

buckeroo  posted on  2009-08-22   0:45:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: lucysmom (#40)

So is Medicare, but they all have to comply with CMS regs, which are extremely unevenly enforced, and quite often ill thought out.

In 2007, the FBI reported on concern about white supremacists recruiting soldiers, saying "hundreds" of neo-Nazis were in the active military. But in April, a Department of Homeland Security report on extremism that reiterated much the same point was widely criticized by veterans groups and some conservative politicians as being unpatriotic, leading the Justice Department to retract the DHS report.

Critics acknowledge that extremism in the Army is a touchy political subject.

Dakmar  posted on  2009-08-22   0:45:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Dakmar (#38)

Do you think being fined for not having insurance might motivate you to buy some?

Have you heard the saying, "You can't get blood from a turnip"?

lucysmom  posted on  2009-08-22   0:53:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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