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Title: Judge Strikes Reference to God in Kentucky Law That Created The Kentucky Office of Homeland Security
Source:
Associated Press
URL Source: [None]
Published: Aug 27, 2009
Author: Associated Press
Post Date: 2009-08-27 14:53:09 by Brian S
Keywords: None
Views: 2590
Comments: 91
Decision: Homeland Security's Dependence on "Almighty God" Akin to Establishing a Religion (AP) It is one thing to trust in God, but quite another to be ordered to rely on protection from above during national emergencies, a judge has ruled. Franklin Circuit Judge Thomas Wingate said in Wednesday's decision that references to a dependence on "Almighty God" in the law that created the Kentucky Office of Homeland Security is akin to establishing a religion, which the government is prohibited from doing in the U.S. and Kentucky constitutions. Ten Kentucky residents and a national atheist group sued to have the reference stricken. "It is breathtakingly unconstitutional," said Edwin Kagin, national legal director for American Atheists Inc. in Union, "and Judge Wingate goes to great detail as to why it is." The judge wrote in the 18-page ruling: "The statute pronounces very plainly that current citizens of the Commonwealth cannot be safe, neither now, nor in the future, without the aid of Almighty God. Even assuming that most of this nation's citizens have historically depended upon God, by choice, for their protection, this does not give the General Assembly the right to force citizens to do so now." The language in the 2006 legislation had been inserted by state Rep. Tom Riner, D-Louisville, a pastor of Christ is King Baptist Church in Louisville. Riner said he planned to ask Kentucky Attorney General Jack Conway to seek a reconsideration of the order. Conway has 10 days to do that, and 30 days to appeal. "They make the argument ... that it has to do with a religion," Riner said, "and promoting a religion. God is not a religion. God is God." A spokeswoman for Kentucky Attorney General Jack Conway says he has not yet decided whether to appeal. The state Office of Homeland Security was created in response to the Sept. 11 attacks, Wingate said in the order, and two amendments added to the statute creating the office were at issue. One required that training materials include information that the General Assembly stressed a "dependence on Almighty God as being vital to the security of the Commonwealth." The other required a plaque to be placed at the entrance to the state's Emergency Operations Center in Frankfort that said, in part, "the safety and security of the Commonwealth cannot be achieved apart from reliance upon Almighty God." Wingate noted in the order that there are 32 references to God or Almighty God in state statutes and the state constitution. But the reference in the homeland security law "places an affirmative duty to rely on Almighty God for the protection of the Commonwealth," Wingate wrote. "This makes the statute exceptional among thousands of others, and therefore, unconstitutional." Riner said he was not willing to consider rewording the phrases to make them pass muster. "This is no small matter, the understanding that God is real," he said. "There are real benefits to acknowledging Him. There was not a single founder or framer of the Constitution who didn't believe that."
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#25. To: F16Fighter (#21)
If you honestly want to know why read the "God is Not Great" by Christopher Hitchens. He makes the case in great detail, and eloquently. If you want to know the mind of your enemy, read it. In short because religion makes people irrational. It makes good people do bad things. It justifies hatred, in the name of love, and it values ignorance. You probably can't see it in our society, but look at what it does to Islamic society. Look at what it did to Europe during the reformation. It had man killing his fellow man over whether communion bread during into Jesus or not. I'm not exaggerating when I say millions of people have died over senseless issues like that.
Not really. You lack understanding. You want to dismiss it and dismiss all evidence in favor. As I said before, the hard part is broadening your concepts. As for dragons, they did exist. So did cyclops and griffins. They have found the bones. Dismissing such things as myths only serves to stop research.
Not really. A broader understanding of God and his nature does not negate other belief systems. The hard part is broadening your understanding of God. Try fitting M theory, string theory, space time and multiple universes into your concept of God. Is it possible that the unifying theory is actually God? Can you grasp the concept of God as the ultimate in evolution? A being who exists outside space time and multiple universes who is able to manipulate space time. Are you so sure that this possibility doesn't exist? Is your Earth still flat? Does your sun still revolve around the Earth? Can you so easily dismiss what has yet to be proved? The problem, of course, in arguing with a confirmed atheist is the same as arguing with any form of religious fanatic: "My mind is made up now don't try to confuse me with the facts". Atheism has no more logical and rational foundation than a belief in the fuzz in one's navel. It is in fact a rejection of belief and a negation of belief. I say this without carrying water for any particular sect. However, when one dissects the atheist viewpoint down to its basics it fails to account for the observable data and phenomena: All events, activities, etc., can be shown to have a cause resulting in an effect. Intelligence is a deterministic phenomena i.e., it is the result of a conscious and self aware life force. This is checkable simply by asking yourself a simple question: Am I aware that I am aware? Unless you are a Freeptard® the answer is yes. Therefore we can posit an intelligent awareness which is distinct from the material universe in which it exists. This force vitale, life force, is the individual awareness unit or self. As you delineated in your comment we can observe empirically that the physical universe of Matter, Energy, Space, and Time exists (henceforth MEST for short). However, its existence is an effect not a cause. That is MEST is inanimate, has no awareness, and is itself an artifact of some creation. We can observe, empirically and logically, that effects have a cause. Given that the physical universe is an effect we can thus logically infer a cause. This "First Cause" of the "First Effect" is that awareness which, dogma aside, we name "God". Now the ultimate nature and reality of that is not currently within the realm of our knowledge, but we can rationally infer its existence. Atheism is at its roots the denial that effects have causes and that the observable physical universe "always was" or that "shit happens" all by itself. Logically, despite their pretensions to their religion of "rationalism", "skepticism", and their interpretation of Holy Science, their argument falls apart epistemologically. (Edited to correct typo.)
"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France
Well my concepts are hard to grasp and difficult for me to put into words. As I said they are not...normal. I am a Bible believing Christian though. I have simply broadened my view to incorporate science. I don't see the disconnect everyone tries to make exist. I see harmony where others see discordance. Too me is it like arguing whether an E is better than an F and claiming they should never be played together, yet I have seen them used in beautiful music. Carmina Burna being one example.
Dude, as a result of following biblical principles and tenets, America and our Republic has been forged, and foundation still standing. Denying that would be monumentally disingenuous and intellectually dishonest... What about America follows biblical principles? Things like representative republics, liberty, and the like aren't in the bible. Other principles like capitalism are expressly preached against by Jesus. Materialism is rejected by Jesus. The beatitudes call for poverty, hunger, pacifism, and meekness. The discourse on ostentation is about is unamerican as you can get. Rebellion itself is unbiblical. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, not found in the bible, but in enlightenment era philosophical essays. Yes.
Not really. You lack understanding. It is rational to dimiss things for which no evidence exists. You dismiss dragons, because no evidence exists for them. You want to dismiss it and dismiss all evidence in favor. As I said before, the hard part is broadening your concepts. As for dragons, they did exist. So did cyclops and griffins. They have found the bones. Dismissing such things as myths only serves to stop research. Equally so with "Young Earth" Creationists (who argue that all of the geolgocic record was created 6,000 years ago - to f**k with our minds I guess) and Darwinists who categorically reject and have hissy fits with anatomically modern human remains and artifacts dating back into the Miocene (Miocene Period: 5 million to 25 million years ago). One because of their religious dogma and misinterpretation and the other by what has come to be secular religious dogma which may not be questioned - which both are antithetical to the Scientific Method which the Atheists claim to worship.
"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France
Oh bravo! I do love your intellect!
One of the best arguments for the existence of divine inspiration. The most beautiful choral work ever written. Therein lies proof of the existence of the human spirit as there can be no other explanation for something so ethereal as music - which has absolutely has no utilitarian rationale and yet exalts the human spirit like no other art.
"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France
Not buying that for one moment - it's a false premise perpetrated by the Elites who exploited a supposed "Christian" Dubya Bush and conveniently scapegoated who else? Christians. As most everyone has discovered, the "Homeland Security" imperative and mindset forged from 2001-2004 was based on trumped up bullsh*t. DAMAGE DONE.
Exactly. I have to go back to the scientist, sadly I can't remember her name, who didn't dismiss "myths" such as the cyclops and griffin and decided to do research on them instead. People didn't just make this stuff up out of thin air, they had valid reasons for believing these things existed. She found the bones! Course we know these bones to belong to animals that not only have different names but different characteristics than that assigned by the "myth" creators. Mammoth bones giving rise to cyclops etc.
This conclusion doesn't follow from any of your premises. Why would you possibly label this first cause God? God implies consciousness, timelessness, omniscience, and all sorts of other attributes, you haven't shown. What you have done is shown nobody understands the creation, beginning of, or nature of the universe. Instead of admitting this ignorance, you decide to argue that it necessarily is a god. You define god so widely it could be anything. Why can't you just leave it at, we don't know yet, and we may never know. You have constructed a way of turning, I don't understand into a deity, seemingly for no reason.
Amen!
Apparently you are willing to believe anything without regard to whether its true or not.
Apparently you don't pay attention to outside the box research.
I thank you fair madam for the kind words. "An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France
God is not a myth and I can prove it.
TRAITORS TO AMERICA AND BRAINWASHED IDIOTS SUPPORT AND DEFEND ISRAEL. TO HELL WITH ZIONISTS AND THIER AMERICAN FRONTS: AIPAC/PNAC/ADL/JPCA/NAACP/CFR/FEDERAL RESERVE/NWO/SPLC/JINSA/ACLU/FPI/CHRISTIAN ZIONISTS/AEI/FEDERAL MEDIA/HOLLYWOOD, et. al.
God is not a myth and I can prove it. Lets hear it.
That would be the response of any lunatic trying to legitimize his crackpot theories. What makes yours different?
Is Cyclops real? Author’s book touches on the age-old myth By: Mark Bahm In this book, Adrienne Mayor, a classicist specializing in ancient folklore, contends that the Greeks and Romans had a much more-extensive knowledge of the fossil remains of extinct animals than is usually admitted by modern writers. This is due, she explains, to the fact that while paleontologists know their animal fossils, they normally have little familiarity with classical authors. And while classicists have mastered the ancient literature, they usually lack knowledge of paleontology. In this fascinating volume, Mayor seeks to bridge the gap between the two disciplines. One of the most-interesting topics in her book, “The First Fossil Hunters: Paleontology in Greek and Roman Times,” is the possible influence of fossil discoveries on the development of classical folklore. Mayor’s prime example of this is the griffin, a legendary creature with the head of an eagle and a lion-like body, sometimes depicted with wings and sometimes without. Legends depict the griffin as living deep in the mountains of central Asia, where they guarded hordes of gold from interlopers. Greek authors claim to have acquired knowledge of the griffin from the Saka-Scythians, an Iranian tribe that in ancient times dominated the Eurasian steppes from the Ukraine to the western borders of China. As it happens, the Greek word for griffin, “gryps,” is derived from an Iranian word, “giriften,” meaning “to grip, seize.” At the eastern edge of the Saka-Scythians’ domain are the Altay Mountains, which today mark the western border of Mongolia. The name Altay means “gold” in Mongolian, and the mountains do indeed contain rich gold deposits. Furthermore, some 30 miles from the Altay Mountains, in the Gobi desert, an American paleontological expedition in 1922 discovered the fossil remains of the protoceratops, a lion-sized dinosaur ancestral to the much larger and better-known three-horned triceratops. Proceratops, with its large-beaked hornless head, bears a striking resemblance to the griffin, is of roughly the same size and lived in exactly the same region, where its fossilized remains are often plainly visible, embedded in rock formations. Thus, Mayor concludes that the griffin legend derives from Saka-Scythian stories passed on to the Greeks, stories which doubtless lost little dramatic interest in the retelling. Another, much more fantastic creature of Greek legend also may have been derived from the fossil remains of ancient creatures. This is the Cyclops, the giant, one-eyed man-eating humanoid creature encountered, most famously, in the “Odyssey.” Though extinct except in Africa by historical times, elephants had once been fairly common in the Mediterranean basin. The ancients are known to have found their remains, and these remains have a couple of peculiarities that may well have given rise to the Cyclops myth. When found in a disarticulated jumble, as is usually the case, a fossilized elephant’s skeleton can easily be mistaken for the bones of a monstrous, man-like creature. In addition, an elephant skull, viewed from the front, resembles a human skull with a single “eye socket” in the forehead, just as with the Cyclopes. This is in fact the area where the elephant’s trunk is attached to its skull. Elephant skulls often retain the tusks, and some sources credit the Cyclopes with being so equipped. When the Greeks and Romans discovered large bones, they sometimes preserved and stored them.These were often thought to be the bones of ancient heroes. Heroes in the ancient world were not merely men who performed extraordinary deeds, but were demigods, altogether superior to mortal men in strength and stature. As Homer wrote of Telamonian Ajax in Book 12 of “the Iliad:” “No man now alive could heft that stone “in his two hands, not even someone young and strong, “but Ajax raised it high, then hurled it, smashing “(Epicles’) … helmet and completely crushing “his entire skull.” Thus, it seemed quite reasonable that large bones should belong to the great heroes of old. The earliest mention of the discovery of such bones is in Herodotus, who writes of the Spartan acquisition in about 560 B.C. of the 10-foot skeleton of Orestes, son of Agamemnon – probably in fact the bones of a mammoth. Many years later, Greek and Roman writers wrote of such finds, which were often displayed in temples, in effect as sacred relics. The Roman Emperor Augustus (r. 31 B.C.-14 A.D.) established a museum at his villa at Capri to display giant bones. By this time, more “scientific” views had begun to take hold, and according to Augustus’ biographer Suetonius, many of these were known to be the bones of “normal” extinct animals. However, Augustus still displayed what were claimed to be the tusks of the Calydonian Boar, a monstrous creature slain by Hercules. One of the most helpful features of Mayor’s book is her discussion of ancient writers who made mention of finds of large bones. These range from very well-known authors, such as Herodotus, Pliny the Elder and St. Augustine, to the less-famous, such as Diodorus of Sicily and Pausanias, to the downright obscure, like Palaephatus and Phlegon of Tralles. By this detailed review of the many ancient mentions of such bones, Mayor demonstrates that discussion of fossils was an established part of classical intellectual discourse, and brings this often-neglected aspect of ancient thought to our attention. Mark Bahm is a reference librarian at the Terrebonne Parish Main Library, 151 Library Drive, Houma. He can be reached at 876-5861. Book reviews represent the opinion of the writer and not necessarily of this newspaper.
Science.
The article says Ancient Cultures found real remains of real species that were extinct, and then believed they were myths. It doesn't say, nor imply they were the actual mythical beasts the Romans and Greeks assumed they were.
The first fossil hunters (pictures at link) Recently I caught an interesting episode of Ancient Mysteries on the History Channel (I know, I know, something actually related to history on the History Channel!). According to Adrienne Mayor, an author and classical folklorist, Greek myths may have been inspired by prehistoric fossils. After researching numerous passages from ancient authors, interviewing various paleontologists and analyzing and interpreting ancient art, Mayor concludes that the Ancient Greeks came across prehistoric bones and associated them with strange creatures like the Griffin and Cyclops. The show was so interesting that after it ended I ordered Mayor's book The First Fossil Hunters on Amazon to learn more. The verdict? Although it's needlessly repetitious, Mayor's overall conjecture is fascinating and perhaps even plausible. One of the things I was surprised to learn is that the scientific community doesn't believe the Ancient Greeks were capable of recognizing prehistoric fossils as bones. I can't fanthom why this would be, and luckily Mayor agrees. She argues that they DID recognize the bones of prehistoric animals, and cites various ancient authors to prover her point. For example, Herodotus reports that in order to win a war against their neighbor Tegea, the Spartans were told by the priestess of Delphi to find and bring home the bones of Orestes (a prince of Mycenae and a relation to the Spartan king Menelaus). Eventually the bones were found on the edge of Tegea, where they were encased in a large coffin measuring almost ten feet long. The Spartans took the remains back to Sparta, reburied them in a lavish ceremony, and won the war. Although it seems strange to us that the Greeks would think bones that big could be human, Mayor explains that the Ancient Greeks believed heroes like Theseus and Orestes to be three times the size of mortal men! Since most of the prehistoric bones found in Greece belong to huge prehistoric mammals like elephants and rhinosoraus, it's not hard to see why the Ancient Greeks believed in giants and bigger-than-life heroes. Mayor offers more proof that the Greeks understood fossils with the Monster of Troy vase. This otherwise normal looking column-krater has--for inexplicible reasons--the Monster of Troy portrayed as a weird, white, skull-looking... thing. Mayor insists it is a skull, perhaps a fossil poking out from the side of a cliff. She draws attention to the fact that the teeth are drawn like that of prehistoric animal and that mouth looks like an actual jawbone. She also thinks that the Griffin, which has its origin in Scythia may be based on a dinosaur. Mayor traces the story of the Griffin all the way to the Gobi desert, where nomadic tribes roamed about prospecting for gold. These nomadic Scythians reported to the Greeks that they had seen winged creatures with the body of a lion and the beak of an eagle, and that they fiercely protected the gold dust that fell from the mountains. When Mayor did some investigating she learned that around the area are the well preserved bones of Protoceratops, a dinosaur with a beaked skull and a large crest that could be mistaken for wings. Her side-by-side comparison between the remains of a Protoceratops and a picture of a Griffin is pretty interesting. Although there's no way to prove her theory is correct, it's interesting to think that if they didn't inspire the myths, prehistoric bones at least convinced the ancients that giants and heroes of huge size really existed. At any rate, despite a few editing issues I enjoyed the book. I think I might even use some of the material in my story. :)
Peer reviewed journal? Or internet website with black background and red text?
Now who is playing with words.
Peer reviewed like all the evidence of anthropogenic global warming? I have little faith in peer review at this point.
Can't you just summarize? Hitchens - though brilliant at times - has a blind spot the size of Rhode Island on the issue of God. Now how is Hitchens (or anyone) explaining away God if they both reject and refuse to understand a Metaphysical World that is real? In short because religion makes people irrational. It makes good people do bad things. It justifies hatred, in the name of love, and it values ignorance. Secular Humanism is a "religion"; As is Islam; As is Protestantism. There can be no blanket equivalent in assessing "religion." And anyway, most of the American Founders did in fact belong to Christian sects. You probably can't see it in our society, but look at what it does to Islamic society. I'm the LAST person who needs to be convinced that the Muslim "religion" is a net negative. Look at what it [religion] did to Europe during the reformation. It had man killing his fellow man over whether communion bread during into Jesus or not. Yes, because the true tenets of Christianity were subverted and corrupted - first by Constantine, and then sporadically through the centuries by corrupt Popes. I'm not exaggerating when I say millions of people have died over senseless issues like that. Perhaps, though spread over the course of centuries...and through Europe and the Middle East. But even if your premise is accepted, have you any idea of the numbers murdered in the name of atheistic communism and fascism during the 20th century?
Now who is playing with words. You said dragons existed. I said you are crazy. You post a story about how Romans thought Mammoth and other prehistoric bones were remains of mythological creatures. I don't see what you are trying to prove here.
Somehow, someway, we are here. Whatever and/or whomever is responsible for us being here is god. You and anyone else, of course, may chose an alternative moniker. How one describes this or subscribes to this entity or force or whatever or whoever is subject to much earthly interpretation--both personal and collectively (primarily and popularly espoused among various man made religions).
TRAITORS TO AMERICA AND BRAINWASHED IDIOTS SUPPORT AND DEFEND ISRAEL. TO HELL WITH ZIONISTS AND THIER AMERICAN FRONTS: AIPAC/PNAC/ADL/JPCA/NAACP/CFR/FEDERAL RESERVE/NWO/SPLC/JINSA/ACLU/FPI/CHRISTIAN ZIONISTS/AEI/FEDERAL MEDIA/HOLLYWOOD, et. al.
LOL well that is the ultimate point right there!
Because there isn't any reason to believe a metaphysical world exists. A philosophy really. There isn't a case I've found where religion helps, and many it hurts. Its not factual, and harms society. If there is a religion that is not harmful I haven't heard about it. Of course some (Islam) are worse than others (quakers). Like I said you are too close to Christianity. Its abso-fucking-lutely ridiculous to kill millions of people over communion. How much world despair would have been avoided if the reformation and the Thirty Years War didn't turn Germany into a shit hole, and prevent its union? Communism didn't kill because it was atheist. Just like Fascism didn't kill because it was Christian. And Fascism was Christian. I don't know where you think it was atheist. It happened in two catholic countries, and a catholic and Lutheran country. But like I said, it wasn't related to Christianity.
And that somehow doesn't have to be a god. And what created god? If god just is, why do you dismiss that the universe just is?
This is one of those chowderhead things fundies like to do, stick the appellation 'God' everywhere in legislation and on public land. Just another way for a dog to raise it's leg to try to make something his territory. The above story from Florida about the shirts takes the cake. It is something out of the Fred Phelps ad agency dedicated to promote Christianity. It hurts that religion far more then Islam, as it is already being used to fuel anti- American hatred in the Islamic world. It came to mind when I saw this thread.
aside from this topic changing courses to bicker about 'the existance of God', i don't know if this topic would generate angst, regarding a judge striking reference to god from a 'homeland security' law. do people here really give a shit about such irrelevent nonsense? a reichland security gestapo is by it's very nature, ungodly. This country is ungodly. so why do so many mainline dopes focus on irrelevant minutia when the actions that their state and statist heros take against the masses daily are very extremely ungodly; not to mention the fact that their "godly" country has allowed the slaughter of 20 million babies. That is not 'godly'. yet they put their hand on their hearts and repeat the pledge written by the nazi, and chant 'IN GOD WE TRUST'. the country is full of dopes.
Glory to God in the highest, and Peace to His people on Earth. The name of your god is universe.
TRAITORS TO AMERICA AND BRAINWASHED IDIOTS SUPPORT AND DEFEND ISRAEL. TO HELL WITH ZIONISTS AND THIER AMERICAN FRONTS: AIPAC/PNAC/ADL/JPCA/NAACP/CFR/FEDERAL RESERVE/NWO/SPLC/JINSA/ACLU/FPI/CHRISTIAN ZIONISTS/AEI/FEDERAL MEDIA/HOLLYWOOD, et. al.
That is playing semantics. If your definition of god is limitless, saying there is a god is useless.
Why would you possibly label this first cause God? God implies consciousness, timelessness, omniscience, and all sorts of other attributes, you haven't shown. What you have done is shown nobody understands the creation, beginning of, or nature of the universe. Instead of admitting this ignorance, you decide to argue that it necessarily is a god. You define god so widely it could be anything. Why can't you just leave it at, we don't know yet, and we may never know. You have constructed a way of turning, I don't understand into a deity, seemingly for no reason. Did I say deity? No. A first cause is just that - the first cause of the first effect. We can logically infer certain things about that cause, but nothing requires deification. I would argue that "timelessness" is itself a function of awareness and existence and that time is simply the recognition, subjectively, of the individual of the track of sequential events. That there is physical quality called time has never been proven by western materialistic thought. The conept of "God" is a conscious decision of the self aware attempting to explain and lay name to that which created that which is observed. Omniscience is not a characteristic in direct evidence and thus I do not presume it - although I would note that their are phenomena associated with the self awareness we call man that would seem to imply a realm of ability which we cannot always consciously access. I don't pretend to have the ultimate and final answer and I do not. I do reject atheism as it is unsound both logically upon careful observation and reasoning. I refer to that first cause as God simply for lack of a better name other than the vague first cause. I am not defending the structures and dogma of specific religious beliefs with which I may not agree. Atheism is founded first and foremost in the relatively modern concept of materialism a creation of the minds of some of the western Philosphers e.g., Hegel, Hume, and Kant, which found root with Darwin, Freud, and and Wundt. It is founded ultimately upon the reasoning that only that which can be sensed within the limitations of the MEST universe has existence and ultimately that matter creates itself - that an inanimate unaware piece of MEST brought itself and awareness into existence. Further in its materialist viewpoint seeks to deny the ultimate spirituality of man and reduce him to the level of an unaware animal - all evidence to the contrary. Thus I reject atheism as unsupported by that which is observable empirically and by comparison to that often ill defined realm of the spirit that "elan vitale" posited by Bergson.
"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France
As well in one of his dialogues Plato quotes Solon as relaying a comment from and Egyptian Priest saying that they had records going back 100,000 years. That is one the messes with both the Darwinists and some Religionists.
"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France
Honesty, fairness and honor - hallmarks of biblical principles which are the backbone of law and order. Accountability to an Almighty has in no small measure been a catalyst in maintaining business ethics and wealth in America. * Main Entry: cap·i·tal·ism An economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market. (source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary) Even Jesus - as a carpenter - needed to be paid for his services. He was NOT anti-business, nor pro-communist, which advocates stealing time and wealth and work. As to Christ and his beatitudes, His context is taken out of context - He spoke in aphorisms and parables in addressing His audience about humility, spiritual hunger, and yes - rejecting the worship of earthly wealth on their way to His Kingdom. Rebellion itself is unbiblical. The Bible itself tells us Man is rebellious...against good. Against, the Bible must be understood in context - and when it is, it takes on a whole different meaning that is not so much literal - but not that it isn't as well. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, not found in the bible, but in enlightenment era philosophical essays. True - much of the concepts of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness were philosophies forged in the Age of Enlightenment by deists. However it doesn't detract from the biblical tenets nor high composition American Founders. Deists were odd birds; They reject supernaturalism, yet believed in God. They believe this same God had bailed out on Man - apparently just after His Creation, thus presuming Man has invented virtue. Q: America has historically NOT based on atheistic ethics and morals - what makes you thinks the Republic and liberty would thrive - much less survive?
If your definition of universe is limitless, saying there is a universe is useless.
TRAITORS TO AMERICA AND BRAINWASHED IDIOTS SUPPORT AND DEFEND ISRAEL. TO HELL WITH ZIONISTS AND THIER AMERICAN FRONTS: AIPAC/PNAC/ADL/JPCA/NAACP/CFR/FEDERAL RESERVE/NWO/SPLC/JINSA/ACLU/FPI/CHRISTIAN ZIONISTS/AEI/FEDERAL MEDIA/HOLLYWOOD, et. al.
If your definition of universe is limitless, saying there is a universe is useless. That isn't what I meant. I mean if your definition of god is so loose that the universe fits it, its not a good definition.
All traits of western civilization since the Greeks. I don't see any reason to believe that. Jesus was not pro business. He advocated giving everything away that you own advised people to wait for his return in poverty. That doesn't match the American industrialist spirit. Jesus's message was to suffer in this world for the opportunity to go to heaven. America seeks to make this material world as great as it can be. It very specifically talks against rebelling against your kings. Again the point of the new testament was, who cares how terrible this world is, Jesus is going to take us all to heaven. An atheist america, would take with it the good morals we already have and leave behind ancient superstition.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestBut to what end do you and your lunatic fringe desire to stomp your feet and insist God needs to be eradicated from American society?
#26. To: Rhino369, Original_Intent (#17)
god as everyone else defines it is still a myth.
It is rational to dimiss things for which no evidence exists. You dismiss dragons, because no evidence exists for them.
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#27. To: farmfriend, Rhino369, Refinersfire, Artisan, all (#11)
(Edited)
Yes God is a myth. Why is that so hard to believe. Even if you believe in a god, you must then believe all the other gods people believe in, have believed in, and will believe in are myths right?
#28. To: Rhino369, Original_Intent (#19)
I'm sorry for acting like a dick, but your post seemingly made a ridiculous claim. And ridiculous claims can't be met with logic, and instead should only be met with dismissal.
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#29. To: F16Fighter (#24)
(Edited)
Do you really feel America is a better place as an atheistic society?
#30. To: farmfriend (#26)
god as everyone else defines it is still a myth.
#31. To: Original_Intent (#27)
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#32. To: farmfriend (#28)
Carmina Burna being one example.
#33. To: Artisan (#8)
this is the kind of screwy thing that pits the athiests againts the "good wholesome God belieiving homeland security advocates".
#34. To: Original_Intent (#30)
which both are antithetical to the Scientific Method which the Atheists claim to worship.
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#35. To: Original_Intent (#27)
Therefore we can posit an intelligent awareness which is distinct from the material universe in which it exists.
We can observe, empirically and logically, that effects have a cause. Given that the physical universe is an effect we can thus logically infer a cause. This "First Cause" of the "First Effect" is that awareness which, dogma aside, we name "God". Now the ultimate nature and reality of that is not currently within the realm of our knowledge, but we can rationally infer its existence. Atheism is at its roots the denial that effects have causes and that the observable physical universe "always was" or that "shit happens" all by itself. Logically, despite their pretensions to their religion of "rationalism", "skepticism", and their interpretation of Holy Science, their argument falls apart epistemologically.
#36. To: Original_Intent (#32)
One of the best arguments for the existence of divine inspiration. The most beautiful choral work ever written. Therein lies proof of the existence of the human spirit as there can be no other explanation for something so ethereal as music - which has absolutely has no utilitarian rationale and yet exalts the human spirit like no other art.
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#37. To: farmfriend (#26)
As for dragons, they did exist. So did cyclops and griffins. They have found the bones. Dismissing such things as myths only serves to stop research.
#38. To: Rhino369 (#37)
Apparently you are willing to believe anything without regard to whether its true or not.
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#39. To: farmfriend (#31)
#40. To: Rhino369 (#6)
While god is a myth,
#41. To: wbales (#40)
#42. To: farmfriend (#38)
Apparently you don't pay attention to outside the box research.
#43. To: Rhino369, Original_Intent (#37)
Apparently you are willing to believe anything without regard to whether its true or not.
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#44. To: Rhino369 (#42)
That would be the response of any lunatic trying to legitimize his crackpot theories. What makes yours different?
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#45. To: farmfriend (#43)
#46. To: Rhino369, Original_Intent (#42)
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#47. To: farmfriend (#44)
Science.
#48. To: Rhino369 (#45)
The article says Ancient Cultures found real remains of real species that were extinct, and then believed they were myths. It doesn't say, nor imply they were the actual mythical beasts the Romans and Greeks assumed they were.
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#49. To: Rhino369 (#47)
Peer reviewed journal? Or internet website with black background and red text?
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#50. To: Rhino369 (#25)
If you honestly want to know why read the "God is Not Great" by Christopher Hitchens. He makes the case in great detail, and eloquently. If you want to know the mind of your enemy, read it.
#51. To: farmfriend (#48)
#52. To: Rhino369 (#41)
#53. To: Rhino369 (#51)
I don't see what you are trying to prove here.
"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791
#54. To: F16Fighter (#50)
Hitchens - though brilliant at times - has a blind spot the size of Rhode Island on the issue of God. Now how is Hitchens (or anyone) explaining away God if they both reject and refuse to understand a Metaphysical World that is real?
Secular Humanism is a "religion"
As is Islam; As is Protestantism. There can be no blanket equivalent in assessing "religion." And anyway, most of the American Founders did in fact belong to Christian sects.
Yes, because the true tenets of Christianity were subverted and corrupted - first by Constantine, and then sporadically through the centuries by corrupt Popes.
But even if your premise is accepted, have you any idea of the numbers murdered in the name of atheistic communism and fascism during the 20th century?
#55. To: wbales (#52)
Somehow, someway, we are here.
Whatever and/or whomever is responsible for us being here is god.
#56. To: farmfriend (#28)
(Edited)
US Church prints "Islam is of the Devil" shirts for members
#57. To: Brian S (#0)
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#58. To: Rhino369 (#55)
And what created god? If god just is, why do you dismiss that the universe just is?
#59. To: wbales (#58)
The name of your god is universe.
#60. To: Rhino369, farmfriend (#35)
We can observe, empirically and logically, that effects have a cause. Given that the physical universe is an effect we can thus logically infer a cause. This "First Cause" of the "First Effect" is that awareness which, dogma aside, we name "God". Now the ultimate nature and reality of that is not currently within the realm of our knowledge, but we can rationally infer its existence. Atheism is at its roots the denial that effects have causes and that the observable physical universe "always was" or that "shit happens" all by itself. Logically, despite their pretensions to their religion of "rationalism", "skepticism", and their interpretation of Holy Science, their argument falls apart epistemologically.
#61. To: farmfriend (#46)
#62. To: Rhino369 (#29)
What about America follows biblical principles? Things like representative republics, liberty, and the like aren't in the bible. Other principles like capitalism are expressly preached against by Jesus. Materialism is rejected by Jesus. The beatitudes call for poverty, hunger, pacifism, and meekness. The discourse on ostentation is about is unamerican as you can get.
* Pronunciation: Èka-pY-tY-Ìliz-Ym, Èkap-tY-, British also kY-Èpi-tY-
* Function: noun
* Date: 1877
#63. To: Rhino369 (#59)
If your definition of god is limitless, saying there is a god is useless.
#64. To: wbales (#63)
#65. To: F16Fighter (#62)
Honesty, fairness and honor - hallmarks of biblical principles which are the backbone of law and order.
Accountability to an Almighty has in no small measure been a catalyst in maintaining business ethics and wealth in America.
Even Jesus - as a carpenter - needed to be paid for his services. He was NOT anti-business, nor pro-communist, which advocates stealing time and wealth and work.
As to Christ and his beatitudes, His context is taken out of context - He spoke in aphorisms and parables in addressing His audience about humility, spiritual hunger, and yes - rejecting the worship of earthly wealth on their way to His Kingdom.
The Bible itself tells us Man is rebellious...against good. Against, the Bible must be understood in context - and when it is, it takes on a whole different meaning that is not so much literal - but not that it isn't as well.
Q: America has historically NOT based on atheistic ethics and morals - what makes you thinks the Republic and liberty would thrive - much less survive?
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