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Title: How steel back brace made JFK a sitting duck in Dallas
Source:
The Standard
URL Source: http://www.thestandard.com.hk/stdn/std/Opinion/FK27Df02.html
Published: Sep 9, 2009
Author: James Reston
Post Date: 2009-09-09 21:10:18 by Turtle
Keywords: None
Views: 1744
Comments: 135
Two years ago, historian Robert Dallek revealed new details about the extraordinary range of shots, stimulants and pills former United States President John F Kennedy took to control his physical pain and present his youthful image to the world. Important and interesting as these details are, they should not distract us from the one medical remedy that probably killed the president: his corset. Members of Kennedy's inner circle had often witnessed the painful ritual that Kennedy endured in his private quarters before he ventured in public, when his valet would literally winch a steel-rodded canvas back brace around the president's torso, pulling heavy straps and tightening the thongs loop by loop as if it was a bizarre scene out of Gone With the Wind. Once in it, the president was planted upright, trapped and almost bolted into a ramrod posture. Many would wonder how JFK could ever move in such a contraption. And yet move he did, and, besides his painkillers, his corset contributed to the youthful, high-shouldered military bearing that he presented glamorously to the world. But this simple device imparted a fate almost Mephistophelean in its horror to the sequence of events in Dallas 41 years ago. In researching my biography of governor John Connally of Texas 15 years ago, I was led to the critical importance of Kennedy's corset in the ghastly six seconds in November 1963 by a former Texas senator, the late Ralph Yarborough, who was in the motorcade that day. Yarborough growled softly about that ``damned girdle,'' and this led me to the remarks of two doctors, Charles James Carrico and Malcolm Oliver Perry, buried in Volume 3 of the 26-volume set of testimony that attended the Warren Commission report. In November 1963, Carrico was the 28-year-old resident in the emergency room of Parkland Hospital who first received the injured president in the trauma room; Perry came quickly to the emergency room to supervise the case - and then to pronounce the president dead a half-hour later. Before the Warren Commission, Carrico told of removing Kennedy's back brace in the first seconds after his arrival. He described the device as made of coarse white fibre, with stays and buckles. Apart from the never-ending controversy over how many bullets Lee Harvey Oswald actually fired from the Texas School Book Depository, most experts agree with the Warren Commission that Oswald's first bullet passed cleanly through Kennedy's lower neck, missing any bone, then entered Connally's back, streaking through the governor's body and lodging in his thigh. This was the first so-called magic bullet. When Connally was hit, he pivoted in pain to his left, his lithe body in motion as it swivelled downward, ending up in the lap of his wife, Nellie. But because of the corset, Kennedy's body did not act as a normal body would when the bullet passed through his throat. Held by his back brace, Kennedy remained upright, according to the Warren Commission, for five more seconds. This provided Oswald the chance to reload and shoot again at an almost stationary target. The frames of the Zapruder film confirm this ramrod posture: Kennedy's head turns only slightly in those eternal seconds, and his upper body almost not at all, from frame 225 (when the first shot entered his neck) to the fatal frame of 313. Without the corset, the force of the first bullet, travelling at a speed of 600 metres a second, would surely have driven the president's body forward, making him writhe in pain like Connally, and probably down in the seat of his car, beyond the view of Oswald's cross hairs for a second or third shot. With no bones struck and the spinal cord intact, the president almost certainly would have survived the wound from the first bullet. Both Carrico and Perry testified to this likelihood (and apropos of the decades-long controversy, both testified that the small, round, clean wound in the front of Kennedy's neck was an exit wound rather than an entry wound). To Perry, under the questioning of then-assistant counsel - now senator from Pennsylvania - Arlen Specter, the injury was ``tolerable''; the president would have recovered. Because the bullet had passed below the larynx, the wound would not even have impaired his speech later. In the new focus on cortisone shots, codeine painkillers, barbiturates, stimulants such as Ritalin, and gamma globulin injections, the simple corset needs to be emphasised, tragically, in the context of those medical strategies Kennedy used to create the illusion of the vigorous leader.
Poster Comment: I've always been amused by Kennedy "experts" who've pontificated to me about three shooters, the grassy knoll, his driver shot him...and not one of them knew Kennedy was straight-jacketed into his back brace, and that the throat shot was not fatal, indeed not even that bad of a wound.
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#1. To: Turtle (#0)
There is no such thing as a magic bullet. If you need to rely on "magic" to explain an event, then the story is bullshit.
The back brace was no secret, at least not after the assassination, and was mentioned (as limited JFK's voluntary and involuntary movement when being shot) in the Warren Commission Report and in Josiah Thompson's Six Seconds in Dallas. The single bullet theory is, in fact, perhaps the only plausible explanation for Connally's injury's. Connally was hit by a bullet on a downward trajectory, evidently considerably reduced in speed and force by having passed through something else first. An examination of the Zapruder film shows that his wrist was in alignment with the bullet holes in his back and chest only about the same moment that JFK was first shot. To have hit Connally's back from Oswald's window (or anywhere in that vicinity, if you think the shot came from another window), the bullet must first go through JFK since Oswald did not have a clear view of Connally's back.
This is the bullet that magically entered JFK's back, did a left hand turn, stopped and did a sharp 90 degree turn to exit his throat, hit Connally in the back, turn, exit, hit him in the wrist, turn, travel up his hand, turn, then hit in the leg, all without damaging the bullet at all... Here's a diagram of what the Warren Commission claimed happened. More info below; I've never known any Kennedy conspiracist who knew about his back brace. It doesn't fit in with their fantasies, just as his worshippers don't know about his massive drug use and his extensive sexual immorality.
LOLOLOL
So it's ok with you that he was assassinated because he had a fling or two, or had some serious back pain? Of course, anyone who doesn't believe the fairy tale crap about a "lone gunman" is a "nut" in your eyes, right Turtle?
In 2007, the FBI reported on concern about white supremacists recruiting soldiers, saying "hundreds" of neo-Nazis were in the active military. But in April, a Department of Homeland Security report on extremism that reiterated much the same point was widely criticized by veterans groups and some conservative politicians as being unpatriotic, leading the Justice Department to retract the DHS report. Critics acknowledge that extremism in the Army is a touchy political subject. Typical conspiracist nonsense from an ignoramus. The bullet hit Kennedy in the back, exited through his throat, tumbled upright, made a "keyhole" wound in Connely's back, exited, hit his wrist and bounced into his thigh. I will tell you what I tell all conspiracist crackpots: I will give you 10,000 years to prove your case, be it Kennedy or the "Truther" nonsense. You're never do it.
Isn't it bizarre that some people swallow whatever is fed to them by the government, especially if it comes from "experts"... It's almost as if they worship the government as some form of god or something, and the words of the government are right up there with the Bible in their view.
Actually the bullet that went through JFK's throat entered the back of his neck considerably higher than in your drawing. The autopsy drawing put a dot for the entry wound in the shoulder right around the shoulder blades, which was Very misleading to all those amateur sherlocks, but the doctor wrote down on the same page very exact measurements in centimeters of the hold in relation to JFK's right mastoid process (that bony prominance right behind the ear and a standard anatomical landmark) which makes it clear that the bullet hole was not in the shoulder itself but in the back of JFK's neck, at or just a tiny bit above the top of the shirt collar, so the bullet did not take an upward turn at all but went through the neck in a fairly straight line, hitting only soft tissue.
The only problem I have with Kennedy is that he wasn't killed before he got us in Vietnam,
This is one of the most insane fables ever postulated. Lee and Jack and their handlers would be really, really proud of this one.
The only problem with this explanation is that the front of JFKs head explodes, leaving lots of goop on the trunk of the car.
Have you ever fired a gun Turtle? Bullets are made of lead and deform when they enter soft tissue, and if they hit bone they fragment. You're wasting your time. Conspiracists don't operate on facts and logic; they operate on fantasy and immature feeling, which is why I consider them, ultimately, to be leftists.
Eisenhower got us into Vietnam, Kennedy was about to pull out all troops but was assassinated before getting it done. Johnson escalated it to what it became.
Have you ever fired a gun Turtle? Bullets are made of lead and deform when they enter soft tissue, and if they hit bone they fragment. You are truly an ignoramus. The bullet was steel-jacketed.
Bullets don't look brand new when they hit two people, and you're very gullible if you believe that it is possible.
Typical immature leftist nonsense. Kennedy had no intention of pulling out. He was an evil man, a pure politician, as bad as Lincoln, Bush, or Clinton.
Only a mentally-ill crackpot holds a trial for almost 50 years and gets exactly nowhere. You'e never fired a firearm in your life. Don't say you have, because I don't believe you.
No it wasn't, and any halfway intelligent person can look at the bullet and see that it was copper jacketed, just as any other modern round. If it was a steel jacketed bullet it would NOT have been deflected by anything and would have torn through the car itself, and would certainly not have landed softly with no marks on it other than rifling.
Then again you believe anything the government tells you because you worship it. Are you byeltsin?
My God, you can't even tell a steel-jacket by looking at it. I was right - you've never fired a gun in your life.
Besides qualifying as Rifle Expert in the USMC, I have quite a few different firearms I own personally which I have fired thousands of rounds through. So shove it up your lying ass idiot.
Look it up on the web douchbag, the "magic bullet" was a copper jacketed bullet, not steel. Do you know how to use Google, or does your handler need to do it for you?
I don't believe a word you're saying. The last guy who lied to me about being in the military who a security guard who told me he "didn't use" military time when he was in.
I was right -- a mentally ill conspiracist, lying about being in the military. paranoid, seeing conspiracies everywhere, and says the bullet was lead, now changes his mind and says copper-jacked, and doesn't understand the generic term for any bullet like that is "steel-jacket."
I heard about it first maybe five or six years ago. For many years, you didn't hear it because of the whole Camelot cult and they didn't want to admit that their stoned cripple president was corsetted up like Scarlett O'Hair and thus made himself a rigid target for a second fatal shot by an assassin.
Loddy, you ever hear of such an animal? One would think that a steel jacket would weld itself to the barrel.
He was an evil man, a pure politician, as bad as Lincoln, Bush, or Clinton. You are a liar and a shill. That makes you much more evil than anything you see in Kennedy that drives you to see that. Besides his EO announcing a troop pullout in Vietnam, Kennedy fired CIA Director Dulles, was about to disband the CIA entirely, was very upset about Israeli nuclear bomb making, and started printing real money backed by silver, pissing off the boys who run the FED. Wake up.
So I see your game here Turtle. You lay dormant on the forum, acting like a tard amusing people occasionally, but when push comes to shove you act like yukon over at LP. Is that you yukon?
I heard about it maybe five, six years ago, but I knew what a vile person Kennedy was long before that. His worshippers cannot tolerate the fact one lowlife (Oswald) killed another lowlife (Kennedy(. They have to create all kinds of bizarre fantasies about magic bullets, three shooters, grassy knolls, and his own driver shooting him, in order to keep their fantasies intact.
Fuck you asswipe, I was serving in the USMC while you were fondling your boyfriend in the backseat of your mom's car. If I ever by chance meet you in person, perhaps I'll show you what I do to people who call me a liar about my military service. But of course you'd never say it to my face you fucking coward.
That's a big myth, one punctured quite easily. Look at Wikipedia, to name just one source: This executive order delegates to the Secretary of the Treasury the president's authority to issue silver certificates under the Thomas Amendment of the Agricultural Adjustment Act. The order was for the Treasury to issue silver certificates against all silver held by the government which did not already have certificates against it. The order was needed due to the passage of Public Law 88-36 which repealed the Silver Purchase Act and other related monetary measures. One result was that after the repeals, only the President could issue new silver certificates.[citation needed] The Federal Reserve System could replace the certificates, but only in larger denominations. The thrust of the order returned the authority to issue new silver certificates (and specify denominations) back to the U.S. Treasury. This executive order allowed for the Federal Reserve System to distribute and exchange currency at lower denominations that met the growing economic need. The authoritative basis for the Order was substantially nullified on September 13, 1982 with the passage of Public Law 97-258. [1] The order was never directly reversed, but on September 9, 1987, Executive Order 12608 revoked the section that Executive Order 11110 had added to Executive Order 10289,[2] essentially nullifying the order. This executive order is the subject of one of many conspiracy theories concerning the assassination of President Kennedy, with the claim that it was the first step in a plan to close the Federal Reserve Bank.
Big mouth + no balls = coward. Live in your mentally-ill conspiracist fantasy world all you want. I find it amusing. I repeat: anyone who holds a trial for almost 50 years, and can get nowhere, is mentally ill.
So are you really as stupid as you sound, or are you paid to be that way?
Do you deny that he fired Allen Dulles?
BTW, ANYONE can write whatever they want on Wiki.
Loddy, you ever hear of such an animal? Great catch there - I missed it. No, of course not. Copper or lead, or copper-clad lead, form the bullets.
Oh no no no -- you're puncturing the conspiracist's fantasies! Don't you know the bankers killed him? No, wait -- it was the CIA! Or was it Castro?
BTW Turtle, I thought better of you up till today. You've proven yourself to be quite the asshole, at least now it's right out there in the open.
Turtle starts arguments that he can't finish and then we find him aflounder in his little pond vainly trying to right himself with nonsensical assertions. "Musta been a steel-jacketed bullet." There actually is such an animal for small arms. I know of a 7.62x39 armor piercing. It has a copper wash. Without it, yeah, it would indeed weld itself to the barrel. But I think you would look in vain for steel-jacketed munitions made for milsurp rifles of this vintage. Here's Wiki on the ammunition used in the purported JFK assassination weapon. "A 6.5 mm 160 gr (10 g). round-nosed fully copper-jacketed military-type bullet, of a type normally used in 6.5 mm military rifles (such as the Carcano) was found by Governor Connally's gurney in Parkland Hospital. This bullet (CE 399, see single bullet theory), and two bullet fragments found in the presidential limousine, were ballistically matched to the rifle found in the book depository building. A partial palm print of Oswald was also found on the barrel of the gun.[19]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_rifle
SALUS POPULI SUPREMA LEX :P
I will tell you what I tell everyone: I will give you 10,000 years to prove that anyone but Oswald killed Kennedy, or that there were remote-controlled airplanes and explosives in the WTC. You cannot do it.
Those are really steel core, not steel jacketed. There ARE some foreign rounds that are in fact steel jackets with lead cores, but what it comes down to is that the "magic bullet" was a standard copper jacketed lead core round.
I'll give you the same amount of time to prove that Oswald did it.
I'll give you the same amount of time to prove that Oswald did it. A fair wager - Go!
As far as the WTC collapse, it's a physical impossibility for the towers to have collapsed at close to free fall speeds, being that the majority of the structure was undamaged (according to the official story at least). Take into account that the majority of the buildings falling mass was pulverized into dust and shot upwards or outwards, there was very little mass and kinetic energy left to do the sort of damage witnessed live on national TV, where it was absolutely impossible for it to have happened the way it did WITHOUT explosives.
The 6.5 Carcano was a fine rifle (made with Czech steel), the round was more than adequate for what Oswald did with it. Sources: personal.stevens .edu/~gliberat/carcano/emary.html "The 91/41 and most other Carcanos are well made rifles that exhibit old world craftsmanship and are a fine addition to anyone's collection." Source: www.surplu srifle.com/shoo...005/carcano9141/index.asp It's a low-recoil cartridge that exhibits similar ballistics for other 6mm European cartridges that are popular for moose and other European game.
_________________________________________________________________________ First Turtle needs to prove that Oswald did it, because if he can't, then SOMEONE besides Oswald had to have done it...
Do you believe that the magic bullet was steel jacketed too?
Wikipedia is quite correct in this instance. Google around and look at all the bizarre and contradictory theories about this EO. The EO only allowed a transfer of authority to Treasury so that smaller denomination silver certificates could be issued since the previous authorizing law had expired and the Fed was only authorized to print very large silver certificates. So JFK had the Treasury given the authority to issue silver certificates in smaller denominations that small investors could afford. And contrary to these wild theories, LBJ did not repeal that EO or make any change to it and it continued on for 20 years after that. So apparently the killer Fed failed if that's why they killed JFK. Sheesh. Now, the Fed is a killer all right. But they didn't kill JFK. That's an urban myth, most likely started by silver bugs.
"Prove" is a hard word. It takes a lot of expertise to "prove" anything in this regard. We rely on experts in this assassination, and the debate often boils down to a battle of experts. It should be noted that at least two of the nation's top acoustics labs claims a very high probability of five shots from acoustic evidence that can be matched with photos and film such as Zapruder's 8mm recording. Furthermore at least on of those shots echo-locates to another location, specifically the infamous Grassy Knoll. It was this evidence in part which motivated the House of Representative to conclude that there likely was a conspiracy in the murder of John F. Kennedy. http://pages.prodigy.net/whiskey99/hearnoevil.htm
SALUS POPULI SUPREMA LEX Thousands of tons of skyscraper just turned to dust and floated away? Now I've heard it all.
Wasn't the Dealy Plaza rifle a Carcano 38? I don't think they had a very good reputation as a battle rifle, and the Italian soldiers weren't very fond of them. Never fired one but I've handled a few. They ain't Mausers, that's for sure. Good caliber for the job, so to speak. But I would have chosen a better rifle for an assassination if that were my trade.
SALUS POPULI SUPREMA LEX Does this look like solid floors pancaking, or does this look like a bit of dust falling up, across, and everywhere... It was surplus military ammo: Oswald didn't reload ammo with hunting bullets. I don't even think spire-pointed/hunting-style 6.5 Carcano bullets were available back in 1963. Further, from See Parris and Die (H. Paul Jeffers and Dick Levitan, Hawthorn Books, Inc., 1971): "On his own request, Oswald was transferred from the active to the reserve Marines because his mother had been injured in an accident. Later, when Oswald defected to the Soviet Union, he was given an undesirable discharge, which he sought to have changed by appealing directly to Secretary of the Navy John connally. He wrote on January 30, 1962, that he would "employ all means to right this gross mistake or injustice." "It is clear that he thought he had been unjustly treated," concluded the Warren Report. The Navy Review Board, which had rejected nine out of ten men asking for modifications of their discharges in 1962, turned Oswald down, too, on July 25, 1963. There are students of the Oswald affair who believe that the fatal shots fired in Dallas on November 22, 1963, were aimed not at president John F. Kennedy or former Navy Secretary Connally but a that undesirable discharge from the Marines." I agree with this theory as being most likely, but I reject the 'magic bullet' BS. That 6.5mm FMJ bullet behaves like all other similar weight FMJ bullets do on game: excellent penetration with minimal expansion.
_________________________________________________________________________ The silver certificates were discontinued 5 months after JFK's death.
I disagree, it was a well-made rifle. See my links above (post #49). See this link for modern assessments by people who own them: http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/other-military-firearms/42148-6-5mm-carcano- why-bad-hype.html
_________________________________________________________________________ According to the Warren Commission, the 6.5 mm caliber Carcano rifle was the most accurate, rapidest firing rifle known to humanity at the time...
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#2. To: Turtle (#0)
#3. To: Turtle (#0)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#4. To: Shoonra (#2)
There's no place better thanTurtle Island.
#5. To: FormerLurker (#3)
This is the bullet that magically entered JFK's back, did a left hand turn, stopped and did a sharp 90 degree turn to exit his throat, hit Connally in the back, turn, exit, hit him in the wrist, turn, travel up his hand, turn, then hit in the leg, all without damaging the bullet at all...
#6. To: Turtle (#4)
(Edited)
It doesn't fit in with their fantasies
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#7. To: christine (#5)
#8. To: FormerLurker (#3)
There's no place better thanTurtle Island.
#9. To: christine (#5)
LOLOLOL
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#10. To: FormerLurker (#3)
#11. To: FormerLurker (#6)
So it's ok with you that he was assassinated because he had a fling or two, or had some serious back pain due?
There's no place better thanTurtle Island.
#12. To: Turtle, Magic Bullet Fans (#0)
#13. To: Turtle (#0)
#14. To: Turtle (#8)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#15. To: Shoonra (#10)
There's no place better thanTurtle Island.
#16. To: Turtle (#11)
The only problem I have with Kennedy is that he wasn't killed before he got us in Vietnam
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#17. To: FormerLurker (#14)
There's no place better thanTurtle Island.
#18. To: Shoonra (#10)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#19. To: FormerLurker (#16)
Kennedy was about to pull out all troops but was assassinated before getting it done. Johnson escalated it to what it became.
There's no place better thanTurtle Island.
#20. To: FormerLurker (#18)
Bullets don't look brand new when they hit two people, and you're very gullible if you believe that it is possible.
There's no place better thanTurtle Island.
#21. To: Turtle (#17)
The bullet was steel-jacketed.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#22. To: Turtle (#20)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#23. To: FormerLurker (#21)
There's no place better thanTurtle Island.
#24. To: Turtle (#20)
You'e never fired a firearm in your life
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#25. To: Turtle (#23)
My God, you can't even tell a steel-jacket by looking at it. I was right - you've never fired a gun in your life.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#26. To: FormerLurker (#24)
Besides qualifying as Rifle Expert in the USMC, I have quite a few different firearms I own personally which I have fired thousands of rounds through.
There's no place better thanTurtle Island.
#27. To: FormerLurker (#25)
does your handler need
There's no place better thanTurtle Island.
#28. To: Turtle (#4)
I've never known any Kennedy conspiracist who knew about his back brace.
#29. To: Lod, Turtle (#17)
The bullet was steel-jacketed.
Mike Flaherty: Yeah, it's been there a long time. I wish I knew which corner.
My Man Godfrey (1936)
#30. To: Turtle (#19)
Kennedy had no intention of pulling out.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#31. To: Turtle (#27)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#32. To: TooConservative (#28)
There's no place better thanTurtle Island.
#33. To: Turtle (#26)
The last guy who lied to me about being in the military who a security guard who told me he "didn't use" military time when he was in.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#34. To: FormerLurker (#30)
...[JFK]...started printing real money backed by silver, pissing off the boys who run the FED.
In essence, this was a bit of bookkeeping, not some glorious return to the silver standard, a myth apparently promulgated for years to give the Camelot imprimateur to returning to silver money. Of course, the silver bugs, holding huge quantities of silver, would be happy to have silver money in wide circulation again. So, no, JFK wasn't starting any silver standard. Only ignorant people believe this myth. You don't have to believe me; go look at the law and the EO at Wikipedia. It spells it all out and there is some writing from the time about what Kennedy was doing.
Executive Order 11110 was issued by U.S. President John F. Kennedy on June 4, 1963. Purpose
Conspiracy theory
#35. To: FormerLurker (#33)
There's no place better thanTurtle Island.
#36. To: Turtle (#35)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#37. To: TooConservative (#34)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#38. To: TooConservative (#34)
Look at Wikipedia, to name just one source:
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#39. To: Esso, shooters (#29)
The bullet was steel-jacketed.
#40. To: TooConservative (#34)
not some glorious return to the silver standard
There's no place better thanTurtle Island.
#41. To: Turtle (#32)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#42. To: Esso (#29)
#43. To: Dakmar (#7)
#44. To: randge (#42)
Turtle starts arguments that he can't finish
There's no place better thanTurtle Island.
#45. To: randge (#42)
I know of a 7.62x39 armor piercing
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#46. To: Turtle (#44)
I will give you 10,000 years to prove that anyone but Oswald killed Kennedy
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#47. To: FormerLurker, Turtle, all (#46)
I will give you 10,000 years to prove that anyone but Oswald killed Kennedy
#48. To: Turtle (#44)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#49. To: Turtle (#17)
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?”
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#50. To: Lod, Turtle, all (#47)
A fair wager - Go!
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#51. To: X-15 (#49)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#52. To: FormerLurker (#38)
BTW, ANYONE can write whatever they want on Wiki.
#53. To: Turtle (#44)
#54. To: X-15. all (#49)
6.5 Carcano information - it was a POS -
#55. To: FormerLurker (#48)
Take into account that the majority of the buildings falling mass was pulverized into dust and shot upwards or outwards...
#56. To: X-15 (#49)
#57. To: TooConservative (#55)
Thousands of tons of skyscraper just turned to dust and floated away? Now I've heard it all.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#58. To: FormerLurker (#51)
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?”
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#59. To: TooConservative (#52)
(Edited)
And contrary to these wild theories, LBJ did not repeal that EO or make any change to it and it continued on for 20 years after that.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#60. To: Lod (#54)
(Edited)
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?”
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#61. To: randge (#56)
 | Gold and silver are REAL money, paper is but a promise. |
#62. To: X-15 (#58) (Edited)
Copper jacketed rounds that hit tissue do not look brand new. As far as Oswald, he deserted to the USSR while stationed at Iwakuni Japan, married a Soviet bride, then was given thousands of dollars by the US State Department and was allowed to come home to the US with his wife. He was certainly a CIA asset.
I agree with this theory as being most likely, but I reject the 'magic bullet' BS. That 6.5mm FMJ bullet behaves like all other similar weight FMJ bullets do on game: excellent penetration with minimal expansion
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#63. To: FormerLurker, turtle, All (#24)
I believe you called it right here. What can you expect from someone who has told us a thousand times about his pug(s). Furthermore he is delusional and I'm being kind here. Just ask him what a great lover he is, great outdoorsman, well educated, high IQ, and a big slimy piece of excrement. Anyone who needs constant attention is a sicko. That's turtle. What a putz!
So shove it up your lying ass idiot.
#64. To: Elliott Jackalope (#61)
Funny thing is, it didn't even make the assault weapons list. They must have forgotten about it when they wrote the assault weapons ban. Realistically, it was a serious POS and could not have fired as accurately as would be required. One other little problem is that Oswald was buying a soda when the shots were fired, so he'd have to be REALLY talented to pull it off...
According to the Warren Commission, the 6.5 mm caliber Carcano rifle was the most accurate, rapidest firing rifle known to humanity at the time...
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#65. To: X-15 (#60)
Thanks and I will check it out, if you'll do one favor - to the right of "Make blank lines new paragraphs" is a box to check "Auto Hyperlink Web Addresses" which is a real help for we old folks. No Copy/Paste, just click on the link. Thanks, much.
#66. To: FormerLurker, TooConservative (#57)
It almost looks as though perhaps there might have been some sort of explosion. But the government says it pancaked due to kerosene fires. Who to believe?
"The trouble with people is not that they don't know but that they know so much that ain't so." ~ Josh Billings
#67. To: Lod (#65)
I checked the box, but the whole link wasn't highlighted in red when I hit "Preview", I didn't want a dud link. It seems that a link longer than about 20 characters won't highlight.
_________________________________________________________________________
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?”
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#68. To: LACUMO (#63)
Like I said later on, I think he acts like a clown to get people offguard and make them think he is just a harmless old guy who craves attention. I think it's a smokescreen, as he uses the standard disinfo tactics well known shillsters use on a daily basis across any forum on the planet, when called upon to do so.
What a putz!
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#69. To: TooConservative, FormerLurker (#52)
Who do you think was responsible for his death? Have you seen this?
Now, the Fed is a killer all right. But they didn't kill JFK. That's an urban myth, most likely started by silver bugs.
"The trouble with people is not that they don't know but that they know so much that ain't so." ~ Josh Billings
#70. To: X-15 (#60)
Don't know if they're talking about the 38 in particular here. Like I say I've handled a few and the tolerances were pretty sloppy. Fit and finish were poor, IMHO, but I'm not an expert by any means. I'm going to do some research on this rifle and also on the question: "What rifle should the JFK assassin used?"
SALUS POPULI SUPREMA LEX
#71. To: Turtle (#0)
You, and this writer, are morans.
This provided Oswald the chance to reload and shoot again at an almost stationary target.
http://kaygriggs.blogspot.com/ On freedom4um.com, Alex Jones is more dangerous than Henry Kissinger. May you live in interesting times.
#72. To: X-15, christine, Penguinite, coders (#67)
Huh! Let's bitch to the host and hostess then. ;-) Anyway, I don't believe that LHO was anything more than a patsy. And I won't argue the details any more. We all believe what we believe, and that's the way that it is.
#73. To: FormerLurker (#33)
If I ever by chance meet you in person, perhaps I'll show you what I do to people who call me a liar about my military service. But of course you'd never say it to my face you fucking coward. Ha ha. Awesome.
Fuck you asswipe, I was serving in the USMC while you were fondling your boyfriend in the backseat of your mom's car.
http://kaygriggs.blogspot.com/ On freedom4um.com, Alex Jones is more dangerous than Henry Kissinger. May you live in interesting times.
#74. To: wudidiz (#66)
That top down demolition beginning at 1:38 or so in the video is more than likely the way it was done at the WTC.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#75. To: TooConservative (#34)
Your source is suspect bro. Wikipedia is not a good one.
http://kaygriggs.blogspot.com/ On freedom4um.com, Alex Jones is more dangerous than Henry Kissinger. May you live in interesting times.
#76. To: randge (#70)
I'd say .308 Winchester (or 7.62x51mm NATO - pretty much the same thing. That became available in the 50's, and is an excellent caliber / rifle for sniper work.
I'm going to do some research on this rifle and also on the question: "What rifle should the JFK assassin used?"
| Gold and silver are REAL money, paper is but a promise. |
#77. To: wudidiz, turtle (#69)
Swamp gas reflecting off of one of jupiters moons caused the SS to stand down that day instead of protecting the POTUS.
Have you seen this?
http://kaygriggs.blogspot.com/ On freedom4um.com, Alex Jones is more dangerous than Henry Kissinger. May you live in interesting times.
#78. To: Clitora (#73)
I get a bit perturbed when someone questions my military service. It's sort of like getting robbed of my history by someone who wants to trash me for their own agenda.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#79. To: FormerLurker (#78)
Turdle seems to get off on riling people up. I bet he has autism and chronologically is 39 but mentally 7.
It's sort of like getting robbed of my history by someone who wants to trash me for their own agenda.
http://kaygriggs.blogspot.com/ On freedom4um.com, Alex Jones is more dangerous than Henry Kissinger. May you live in interesting times.
#80. To: FormerLurker (#68)
Whatever he is or whatever his reasons for his attention craving, he is definitely sickening. I picture him as looking and being like the toothless mountainman in the movie Deliverence who sodomized the character played by Ned Beatty.
Like I said later on, I think he acts like a clown to get people offguard and make them think he is just a harmless old guy who craves attention.
#81. To: randge (#42)
If price is any indicator of value, the Cacarno is a POS rifle. Gunsamerica.com has some from $200 - $400. Not exactly Sako quality.
#82. To: FormerLurker (#59)
Woodward, G. Thomas (1996), "Money and the Federal Reserve System: Myth and Reality," Congressional Research Service. The silver certificates were discontinued 5 months after JFK's death.
E.O. 11,110 did not create authority to issue new silver certificates, it only affected who could give the order. The purpose of the order was to facilitate the reduction of certificates in circulation, not to increase them. In October 1964 the Treasury ceased issuing them entirely. The Coinage Act of 1965 (PL 89-81) ended the practice of using silver in most U.S. coins, and in 1968 Congress ended the redeemability of silver certificates (PL 90-29). E.O. 11,110 was never reversed by President Johnson and remained on the books until 1987 when there was a general cleaning-up of executive orders (E.O. 12,608, 9/9/87). However, by this time the remaining legislative authority behind E.O. 11,110 had been repealed by Congress with PL 97-258 in 1982.
#83. To: Turtle (#40)
your assertion that jackie climbed out of the limo and onto the trunk in those few seconds to retrieve a piece of her husband's skull is one of the most ridiculous theories i have ever heard.
#84. To: FormerLurker, Turtle (#33)
Those reality challenged among us are quick to attack the messenger before reviewing the facts or their own logic. It's easier to say one is a conspiracy theorist or project their insanity rather than re-examine their own fragile and flawed world view.
I was right -- a mentally ill conspiracist, lying about being in the military. paranoid, seeing conspiracies everywhere...
"The trouble with people is not that they don't know but that they know so much that ain't so." ~ Josh Billings
#85. To: FormerLurker, *9-11* (#33)
LOL! Ping to a great reply and thanks for all your work.
FormerLurker's response to turtle....
Glory to God in the highest, and Peace to His people on Earth.
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#86. To: wudidiz (#84)
"turtle" spends countless hours on here posting complete nonsense, trivial superficial nonsense and stupid jokes. Not to mention being a complete statist hack. doesn't really fit in with the ideology of this site, but to each their own I suppose.
Glory to God in the highest, and Peace to His people on Earth.
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#87. To: Shoonra, Turtle (#10)
Bull shit. Here's the autopsy photo. Actually the bullet that went through JFK's throat entered the back of his neck considerably higher than in your drawing. The autopsy drawing put a dot for the entry wound in the shoulder right around the shoulder blades, which was Very misleading to all those amateur sherlocks, but the doctor wrote down on the same page very exact measurements in centimeters of the hold in relation to JFK's right mastoid process (that bony prominance right behind the ear and a standard anatomical landmark) which makes it clear that the bullet hole was not in the shoulder itself but in the back of JFK's neck, at or just a tiny bit above the top of the shirt collar, so the bullet did not take an upward turn at all but went through the neck in a fairly straight line, hitting only soft tissue.
"I just play to the goddess of music-and I know she's dancing."__Taj Mahal
#88. To: Artisan, Turtle (#86)
I've learned more about pugs here than I ever have anywhere else. ;-)
"The trouble with people is not that they don't know but that they know so much that ain't so." ~ Josh Billings
#89. To: FormerLurker (#74)
I agree. The WTC towers just disintegrated one floor at a time. How anyone can not see that with their own eyes is more of a mystifying phenomenon to me than the event itself. phenomenon Spell check turned off.
That top down demolition beginning at 1:38 or so in the video is more than likely the way it was done at the WTC.
"The trouble with people is not that they don't know but that they know so much that ain't so." ~ Josh Billings
#90. To: randge (#70)
If one were to choose a surplus military rife for the job, the swedish mauser would be the bomb!
I'm going to do some research on this rifle and also on the question: "What rifle should the JFK assassin used?"
Let me get this straight.
Obama's health care plan shall be written by a committee whose head says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that hasn't read it, signed by a president who smokes and has no birth certificate, funded by a treasury chief who did not pay his taxes, overseen by a surgeon general who is overweight and financed by a country that is nearly broke.
What could possibly go wrong? - buckeroo
#91. To: HOUNDDAWG (#87)
Is that a picture of the throat entry wounds? Thanks.
#92. To: HOUNDDAWG (#87)
well done. in the zapruder film, you can clearly see that kennedy's head flew back. the bullet came from the front of the limo. i believe that jackie knew this too and that's the reason she was trying desperately to escape the limo. had the shots come from behind, her reaction would have been to dive for the floor. IMO.
#93. To: Critter (#90)
I tend to agree, any of the 6mm calibers would be perfect: low recoil, excellent accuracy, devastating damage. Tthe 6mm's are very popular in Europe: they work, even on moose.
If one were to choose a surplus military rife for the job, the swedish mauser would be the bomb!
_________________________________________________________________________
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?”
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#94. To: LACUMO (#80)
He got really personally offended when I joked about that scene about a year ago. I wonder if it brings back some unpleasant memories for him...
I picture him as looking and being like the toothless mountainman in the movie Deliverence who sodomized the character played by Ned Beatty.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#95. To: TooConservative (#82)
Ok, so who gave the order to do that?
In October 1964 the Treasury ceased issuing them entirely.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#96. To: Artisan (#85)
I try to be gentle when I can, but at times the gloves come off when someone attacks me personally... :)
LOL!
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#97. To: FormerLurker (#95)
The Treasury secretary, of course. JFK's EO simply delegated his presidential authority to the Treasury. That is all that it did. No new money created. Silver was rising since the late Fifties. The gooberment wanted to get out of silver coinage and they were tossing around how to do it. Well, it proceeded kind of piecemeal but the plan was to eliminate silver certificates and coins, not issue more of them. You might read this. It's a good summary.
#98. To: TooConservative (#97)
From Wiki; In March 1964, Secretary of the Treasury C. Douglas Dillon halted redemption of Silver Certificates for Silver Dollars. In the 1970s, large numbers of the remaining silver dollars in the mint vaults were sold to the collecting public for collector value. All redemption in silver ceased on June 24, 1968. Paper currency is still valid legal tender without the Silver Certificate, instead being backed simply by the perceived strength of the U.S. economy. According to the U.S. treasury, "The notes have no value for themselves, but for what they will buy. In another sense, because they are legal tender, Federal Reserve notes are 'backed' by all the goods and services in the economy."[1] Interesting to note that JFK ordered MORE notes to be printed, rather than cutting them back. Also interesting to note, that the person who ran the CIA whom JFK had fired sat on the Warren Commission, an airport is named after him and his name is in high regard amongst intel types. The Israelis had a bit of a beef with him over the nuke dev thing as well.
Well, it proceeded kind of piecemeal but the plan was to eliminate silver certificates
Certificates circulated, mainly in the $1 denomination, widely throughout the United States in the years following 1934. When the '34s wore out, they were replaced with a new, more modern-looking Series 1953 (1935 for the $1 silvers; see below), with the same face changes as the Series 1950 Federal Reserve Notes had experienced. However, the Silver Certificates began to disappear from circulation during the 1940s and 1950s. The amount of Silver Certificates in circulation depended directly upon the amount of silver bullion in the Treasury vaults. As people redeemed the certificates for bullion or silver dollars, the notes were shredded, because the notes had lost their backing and could not be recirculated unless there was more silver being produced. The price of silver was also rising. In 1960, it was nearing $1.29, which meant that silver dollars were worth more than $1. This meant that people would receive their silver dollars and melt them down for the bullion, thereby reducing the amount of silver in circulation, which was already falling.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#99. To: FormerLurker (#98)
I don't disagree with your source. And, yes, the result of JFK's action resulted in more silver certs being issued for a period before the silver was withdrawn as money.
#100. To: TooConservative (#99)
I noticed in the biker bar on TOS2 that you've got 22rifle's panty's in a wad. Anything that pisses of that statist POS is a good thing. Keep up the good work.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976
The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope
#101. To: FormerLurker (#14)
It is true that bullets will deform. The bullet that went through Connally and lodged in his wrist was similarly deformed -- except the newspapers and then the amateur sherlocks used a photo taken from one angle (with the bend in the bullet directly away from the camera) that effectively concealed the deformity. Other photos, taken at 90 degrees to that, show that the bullet had been bent about midway to an angle that resembled an Australian boomerang.
#102. To: Turtle (#44)
On JFK: About the assassination: The Zapruder film contains all the evidence one needs. Kennedy is first hit while the limo is behind the large street sign--around Zapruder frames 216-220. As Kennedy comes into view front behind the street sign his arms are in motion to grasp at his throat. By the time he comes into view from behind the sign, this bullet is LONG gone. This bullet hit Kennedy in his back and exited out his throat and hit no one else. As the frames continue and at 230, Connally has turned back to his right and towards Kennedy who is, by then, clutching his throat in reaction to being hit during frames 216-220. In frame 230, Connally’s RIGHT wrist can be clearly seen HOLDING his Stetson at chin level. Connally HAS NOT been hit in frame 230. From 230 to when Connolly is hit in frame 238, Connally swings back towards the front of the car; his right wrist makes a sweeping motion down to the front and towards his left thigh; his torso becomes more perpendicular with the front of the limo. It is then, at frame 238, that Connally is hit. His cheeks puff out at frame 238 and the trajectory is set for a shot from top, back right going down through his chest (shattering ribs), hitting his right wrist (which, by that time, is atop his LEFT leg), with the bullet coming to rest at Connally’s left femur near his knee. The Zapruder film runs at 18 frames per second. Kennedy and Connally were hit by different bullets from different weapons from different angles one second apart. About 4.1 seconds after Connally was hit and at frame 313, Kennedy’s death shot came from level front right. Even a steel jacket round would exhibit deformity subsequent to inflicting bone damage as seen in Connally. The weight of the magic bullet and the bullet fragments left in Connally add up to more than the round under consideration, anyway. On this alone, the magic bullet theory is 100% bullshit. The magic bullet may well be the one that initially hit Kennedy and no one else. About who and why: Let’s review what President Kennedy was doing/did leading up to his murder. 1) In a fight with Israel over Israel obtaining and possessing nuclear weapons. 2) Wanted to take power away from the federal reserve. 3) a double cross in the Bay of Pigs 4) Cut a backroom deal with Khruschev during the Cuban missile crisis and made, in the eyes of some, too many concessions to Russia. 5) wanted to and WAS going get US out of Vietnam 6) was a northern catholic Yankee; charismatic and didn’t take shit from no one. 7) was going to divest the CIA of a lot of power 8) didn’t like or get along with Hoover/FBI 9) was a womanizer and shared Mafia women while brother Bobby declared war on the Mafia (condoned by JFK and which was seen as reneging on Mafia support for JFK‘s election). 10) would have been re-elected. Needless to say, JFK had a plethora of “enemies” both within and without the government. Whether or not LBJ actively participated in the actual assassination, his administration damn well covered it up. In my opinion a cabal of divergent interests came together to kill JFK and then cover it up. In November 1963, there was a coup d’etat . In my opinion, the orders came from the Zionists, American Big Business Elite (including the military-industrial complex [which, interestingly, Eisenhower had warned us all about]), and elements of the CIA. It was a confluence of interests and they employed underworld and untraceable actors to do the deed. I cannot say which of these interests led the cabal but am always partial to the saying “follow the money“--so I guess I would lean towards the Federal Reserve Power Masters as being the main driving force. Because of what transpired during the USS Liberty incident [see below], I tend to lean away from Israel/Mosaad as MAJOR players in JFK’s murder--I bet they were “pushing” the plan . (As an aside, there was no doubt that Bobby Kennedy was going to be elected. We see what happened to him. Teddy started drinking and just shut up.) The events following the assassination were nothing less than astounding: the Warren Commission; the magic bullet theory; Ruby killing Oswald then conveniently dying; the autopsy and lost evidence fiascos; the dead witnesses; on and on and on--all of it just surreal. In closing and addressing what I think may have prompted your query, Fred, was that I made a connection between LBJ, the USS Liberty and Israel. When the USS Liberty was attacked and despite the IDF immediately targeting the Liberty’s communications systems, the Liberty crew did get off a message to the Sixth Fleet. The Sixth Fleet (Admiral Larry Geis) then knew it was Israel perpetrating the attack. Geis dispatched fighters from his two carriers. That Americans other than those on the Liberty knew it was them, the IDF, attacking the Liberty AND that Americans who could actually shoot back were on the way, Israel backed off--but there were some behind the scenes activities rapidly occurring. Israel did not want Washington, DC to know that Israel was about to lay a sneak attack on and major escalation of the hostilities on its neighbors to the north and south. Some Israeli nationals have freely and openly opined that Israel thought that the Liberty/U.S. was either intentionally or unintentionally providing information on Israel's military movements to Israel's enemies and that, therefore, Israel justifiably did what it had to do to take the Liberty out AND/OR the Israeli military was going to sink the Liberty and blame Egypt. Had the IDF sent the Liberty and all hands to the bottom and thanks to the inordinate amount of control and influence Zionists and liberal Jews have over the American news and entertainment industries, most Americans would now think that Egypt did it. On to the connection: LBJ and McNamara RECALLED the fighters while the attack on ON!!! Un-f-ing believable!! The decision by Washington, DC to recall the fighter cover was abetting the IDF’s act of premeditated murder. This was treasonous. It was the Commander in Chief turning on his own troops. WHY, OH, WHY?? Why would Johnson recall fighter protection from an American ship under fire?? What could explain that? And, further, what could possibly explain the federal government’s subsequent handling of the entire Liberty affair--its treatment of the crew--its COVER UP? Israel. That’s what. Here is what I think is extremely probable and this all happened in an extremely short period of time. Israel said we’ll back off; you stop the fighters and we won’t go public about your [LBJ‘s] involvement with and/or in JFK’s murder. We’ll both say and maintain forever that it was all just a tragic case of mistaken identity. The deal was done. It is, therefore, that I make the connection between JFK, LBJ, the USS Liberty, and Israel. Now, could you, and completing our “deal”, specifically and exactly explain how and why, in your opinion, President Bush would say that Israel’s security and defense is vital to America and Americans--a true national interest of the United States including detailing the specific and exact benefits to America and Americans from the American-Israeli relationship.
I posted this here about five years ago and it seems this thread is a good place for a repost:
TRAITORS TO AMERICA AND BRAINWASHED IDIOTS SUPPORT AND DEFEND ISRAEL. TO HELL WITH ZIONISTS AND THIER AMERICAN FRONTS: AIPAC/PNAC/ADL/JPCA/NAACP/CFR/FEDERAL RESERVE/NWO/SPLC/JINSA/ACLU/FPI/CHRISTIAN ZIONISTS/AEI/FEDERAL MEDIA/HOLLYWOOD, et. al.
#103. To: wbales (#102)
No, he didn't. Quite the opposite. He cooperated with the general move on the government's part to end the silver certificates which could be exchanged for silver dollars which, at the time, had a bullion value of $1.29. This was a trend of rising silver prices from the late Fifties and Congress wanted to end the silver certs and silver money. The Fed does not, of course, favor any metals-backing for currency and never has. However, JFK was an anti-silver and anti-gold president, very much in line with Federal Reserve policy and philosophy. As for the Liberty, I think your explanations are lacking. You might want to read this. Suspicion of LBJ is always warranted but I think his motives were different than you suggest.
2) Wanted to take power away from the federal reserve.
#104. To: Shoonra (#101)
That seems practically impossible since the bullet shown is straight and true. Post a picture of what you're talking about if it exist. I'd be interested in who the source is for that as well.
Other photos, taken at 90 degrees to that, show that the bullet had been bent about midway to an angle that resembled an Australian boomerang.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#105. To: wbales (#102)
It is, therefore, that I make the connection between JFK, LBJ, the USS Liberty, and Israel. I think you have it nailed. I've seen no other plausible explanation for LBJ's recall of the fighters.
Here is what I think is extremely probable and this all happened in an extremely short period of time. Israel said we’ll back off; you stop the fighters and we won’t go public about your [LBJ‘s] involvement with and/or in JFK’s murder. We’ll both say and maintain forever that it was all just a tragic case of mistaken identity. The deal was done.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#106. To: TooConservative (#103)
I'll take his actions as evidence of his philosophy before I believe an analysis written by those who seek to exonerate their masters. Whatever is out there has been pondered and fine tuned to paint the FED as innocent and uninvolved in the JFK assassination. However, it is an undeniable fact that Kennedy ordered MORE silver certificates issued, which was opposite the desires and interests of those who pull the strings at the FED.
However, JFK was an anti-silver and anti-gold president, very much in line with Federal Reserve policy and philosophy.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#107. To: wbales (#102)
As the frames continue and at 230, Connally has turned back to his right and towards Kennedy who is, by then, clutching his throat in reaction to being hit during frames 216-220. In frame 230, Connally’s RIGHT wrist can be clearly seen HOLDING his Stetson at chin level. Connally HAS NOT been hit in frame 230. From 230 to when Connolly is hit in frame 238, Connally swings back towards the front of the car; his right wrist makes a sweeping motion down to the front and towards his left thigh; his torso becomes more perpendicular with the front of the limo. It is then, at frame 238, that Connally is hit. His cheeks puff out at frame 238 and the trajectory is set for a shot from top, back right going down through his chest (shattering ribs), hitting his right wrist (which, by that time, is atop his LEFT leg), with the bullet coming to rest at Connally’s left femur near his knee. The Zapruder film runs at 18 frames per second. Kennedy and Connally were hit by different bullets from different weapons from different angles one second apart. About 4.1 seconds after Connally was hit and at frame 313, Kennedy’s death shot came from level front right. To deny this in favor of Arlen Specter's lie is to believe in a government conspiracy called the Warren commission.
The Zapruder film contains all the evidence one needs. Kennedy is first hit while the limo is behind the large street sign--around Zapruder frames 216-220. As Kennedy comes into view front behind the street sign his arms are in motion to grasp at his throat. By the time he comes into view from behind the sign, this bullet is LONG gone. This bullet hit Kennedy in his back and exited out his throat and hit no one else.
#108. To: FormerLurker (#106)
No new certificates were created. He did delegate to the Treasury the power to create the smaller denomination certificates. The Federal Reserve, prior and after, had the authority to issue the large institutional silver certs. The reason JFK did this is because Congress was changing the laws, preparing the way to eliminate silver and they had repealed the law that previously had covered the issue of small-denom silver certs. Trying to make JFK the champion of hard money is a fool's errand. He was a fixture of the liberal establishment and the banking interests, none of whom liked hard money in any way.
However, it is an undeniable fact that Kennedy ordered MORE silver certificates issued, which was opposite the desires and interests of those who pull the strings at the FED.
#109. To: TooConservative (#108)
Whatever. I'll retain my original assessment. Perhaps we can agree on this: JFK pissed somebody off.
Trying to make JFK the champion of hard money is a fool's errand. He was a fixture of the liberal establishment and the banking interests, none of whom liked hard money in any way.
TRAITORS TO AMERICA AND BRAINWASHED IDIOTS SUPPORT AND DEFEND ISRAEL. TO HELL WITH ZIONISTS AND THIER AMERICAN FRONTS: AIPAC/PNAC/ADL/JPCA/NAACP/CFR/FEDERAL RESERVE/NWO/SPLC/JINSA/ACLU/FPI/CHRISTIAN ZIONISTS/AEI/FEDERAL MEDIA/HOLLYWOOD, et. al.
#110. To: TooConservative (#108)
Wrong. $4,292,893,815 US Treasury Notes rather than Federal Reserve Notes were to be printed. Have you ever read this? No new certificates were created.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#111. To: FormerLurker (#110)
I have now. I'm not going to waste my time debunking it. For people who refuse to believe the truth or who prefer to admit only certain facts while excluding others or just make stuff up out of thin air, there is no point in argument or discussion. You're welcome to your delusions. Just don't expect me to join your club.
Have you ever read this?
#112. To: TooConservative (#111)
For people who refuse to believe the truth or who prefer to admit only certain facts while excluding others or just make stuff up out of thin air, there is no point in argument or discussion. You are not going to waste your time debunking it, but yet claim that those who cannot accept your "facts" are making things up makes you an intellectual whore.
I'm not going to waste my time debunking it.
http://kaygriggs.blogspot.com/ On freedom4um.com, Alex Jones is more dangerous than Henry Kissinger. May you live in interesting times.
#113. To: Clitora (#112)
Nonsense. My comments were based on the facts which are well-known. They are not in contradiction of the EO or the laws passed by Congress at the time. They are consistent with the government's policy toward hard money at a time when a silver dollar had 30% more value when melted down and sold as metal. The same cannot be said for these JFK-the-silver-champion delusional websites. The Fed is plenty evil enough but they don't knock off presidents.
You are not going to waste your time debunking it, but yet claim that those who cannot accept your "facts" are making things up makes you an intellectual whore.
#114. To: TooConservative (#108)
EO 11110 was issued on June 4th, 1963, accompanying the signing of the Silver Purchase Repeal Act, PL 88-36, 77 Stat 54. The Act repealed the 1934 law which instructed the Treasury to accumulate metallic silver. The new Act essentially told the Treasury to stop purchasing silver, except if any was needed to back up the silver certificates already issued, and when all the outstanding silver certificates had been redeemed in silver not to issue any more certificates nor purchase any more silver. The EO facilitated this law by delegating to the Secretary of the Treasury the authority (previously reposed in the President) to order the issue of any more silver certificates - if any more were needed to balance any metallic silver remaining in the Treasury vaults. In other words, both the Act and the EO were intended to flush all the metallic silver out of the money supply and end the production of silver certificates (which, by 1963, were being used only for small denomination bills), so that FRNs could completely replace silver certificates even for the low denominations. In other words, both the Act and the EO favored, rather than opposed, the Federal Reserve. By the way, the Federal Reserve Board Chairman at that time was William McChesney Martin, a dedicated and extremely patriotic public servant and a Presbyterian. In point of fact, no new silver certificates were issued as a result of EO 11110, the Treasury having determined that there were already enough being circulated to balance the metallic silver in the Treasury vaults. Claims that the EO commanded the production of a specific amount of currency, or that it related to United States Notes, and such, are completely false. The EO still appears as a part of the Official Notes to 3 USC §301.
#115. To: TooConservative (#113)
Yeah, and israel is a non racist country.[/sarcasm]
The Fed is plenty evil enough but they don't knock off presidents.
http://kaygriggs.blogspot.com/ On freedom4um.com, Alex Jones is more dangerous than Henry Kissinger. May you live in interesting times.
#116. To: TooConservative (#110)
John F. Kennedy vs The Federal Reserve
#117. To: Shoonra (#114)
Exactly. But I think the facts aren't going to appeal to some folks. Making up conspiracies is much more fun than the dull facts.
In other words, both the Act and the EO were intended to flush all the metallic silver out of the money supply and end the production of silver certificates (which, by 1963, were being used only for small denomination bills), so that FRNs could completely replace silver certificates even for the low denominations. In other words, both the Act and the EO favored, rather than opposed, the Federal Reserve.
#118. To: Lod (#54)
even the Italians realized the 6.5 carcano was under powered when it was issued. many of them were captured in Ethiopia which had never been fired in anger with the bulk of those only having been dropped once.
The best gun to have, is the gun you have, when you need a gun.
#119. To: TooConservative (#111)
You're welcome to your delusions. Just don't expect me to join your club. Are you trying to say that US Notes were not printed in 1963 to replace Federal Reserve Notes? For people who refuse to believe the truth or who prefer to admit only certain facts while excluding others or just make stuff up out of thin air, there is no point in argument or discussion.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#120. To: FormerLurker (#119)
whoa
http://kaygriggs.blogspot.com/ On freedom4um.com, Alex Jones is more dangerous than Henry Kissinger. May you live in interesting times.
#121. To: Turtle (#11)
He issued an E.O. to pull out of Viet Nam.
The only problem I have with Kennedy is that he wasn't killed before he got us in Vietnam,
formerly GJones.
#122. To: christine, turtle (#83)
Now that is truly bizarre. Turtle do you really think this?
your assertion that jackie climbed out of the limo and onto the trunk in those few seconds to retrieve a piece of her husband's skull is one of the most ridiculous theories i have ever heard.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" 
#123. To: FormerLurker (#119)
JFK's EO and the two laws it worked in concert with applied only to silver certificates. Nothing else.
#124. To: tom007 (#122)
Because it is true. "And just as I turned and looked at him, I could see a piece of his skull and I remember it was flesh colored. I remember thinking he just looked as if he had a slight headache. And I just remember seeing that. No blood or anything." " I was trying to hold his hair on. From the front there was nothing --- I suppose there must have been. But from the back you could see, you know, you were trying to hold his hair on, and his skull on." The Secret Service Agent Clint Hill, seen in films and photos in Dealey Plaza climbing onto the rear of the limousine, stated in his Warren Commission testimony. "Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb on the car." There were pieces of the Presidents skull found in the street and all over the back of the limousine. The piece of skull described by Mrs. Kennedy could have been one she retrieved off the back of the limousine, or a piece of skull still attached to his head. Part of JFK’s skull was found in the grass to the rear and left of where he was hit, indicating that the shot came from right-front. Turtle do you really think this?
http://kaygriggs.blogspot.com/ On freedom4um.com, Alex Jones is more dangerous than Henry Kissinger. May you live in interesting times.
#125. To: tom007, turtle, christine (#122)
Actually, Jackie scrambling on the trunk to get skull pieces or brain pieces isn't that uncommon in the JFK genre. You can google lots of web pages. Also pages on Jackie as the second gunman. And Jackie in cahoots with LBJ. Also, Jackie in cahoots with Onnassis. Then there was her stint for a few years at the CIA, after Vasser and her season in Paris but before she worked as a photographer...well, you get the idea. Jackie still fascinates people.
#126. To: Clitora (#124)
I thought Jackie claimed amnesia for the event.
#127. To: TooConservative (#126)
She said she wore her blood splattered suit to "remind everyone what they had done to Jack". You have seen the "hoodwink" picture of crypto johnson?
I thought Jackie claimed amnesia for the event.
http://kaygriggs.blogspot.com/ On freedom4um.com, Alex Jones is more dangerous than Henry Kissinger. May you live in interesting times.
#128. To: Clitora (#124)
yeah, right. conjecture on Mr Hill's part and more Warren Commission bullsh!t. that's just what she'd be thinking of in those few seconds after seeing her husband's head blown off, Connally getting shot, bullets flying. it's ludicrous. i'm not buying it.
"Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb on the car." There were pieces of the Presidents skull found in the street and all over the back of the limousine. The piece of skull described by Mrs. Kennedy could have been one she retrieved off the back of the limousine, or a piece of skull still attached to his head. Part of JFK’s skull was found in the grass to the rear and left of where he was hit, indicating that the shot came from right-front.
#129. To: christine (#128)
I cannot tell what she is doing. I think she was mind controlled.
http://kaygriggs.blogspot.com/ On freedom4um.com, Alex Jones is more dangerous than Henry Kissinger. May you live in interesting times.
#130. To: christine (#128)
It's too bad we didn't have eBay way back when. :)
Part of JFK’s skull was found in the grass to the rear and left of where he was hit, indicating that the shot came from right-front.
#131. To: X-15, Critter, christine, lod (#93) (Edited)
I tend to agree, any of the 6mm calibers would be perfect: low recoil, excellent accuracy, devastating damage. Tthe 6mm's are very popular in Europe: they work, even on moose. The Swedish Mauser was 6.5mm caliber though. (which is not 6mm) And that particular Swedish caliber, 6.5 X 55 (mm) works at considerably lower chamber pressures than most other main battle rifles, particularly those developed later, in the early or mid 20th century. The 6mm REM and its Winchester-chambered equivalent, the .243 WIN both work at higher pressures and would be better choices for sniper work than the 6.5 Swedish or Carcano chamberings. Unlike military snipers modern police snipers in urban settings take their shots from an average distance of 78 feet which is why some agencies choose rifles that will accurately end hostage situations with a minimum of overkill. In fact the Steyr Mannlicher SSG sniper rifle was available in both .308 and .243 for a time. (I owned one in .308) One modern wildcat chambering, the 6.5-06 (which is self explanatory, the .30-06 brass necked down to accept 6.5 mm bullets) is an excellent long range caliber, and is favored by bighorn sheep hunters attempting to accurately place a shot and harvest a trophy from one mountaintop to the next. Needless to say this wildcat (that is, not factory chambered in rifles or commercially loaded in ammo) works at considerably higher pressures than any of the late 19th century military chamberings for the 6.5. I suppose Critter is basing his high praise of the Swedish Mauser on its mild recoil and adequate killing power. However, if I were to select a sniper caliber (for a JFK-type of contract) I'd lean toward a more powerful cartridge such as the 7mm Rem Mag. Not only can the caliber reliably "put 'em thru one hole" at 300 yards, but the powerful belted magnum will do the job with a single solid hit and only one shot would be necessary, thereby negating any concerns about recoil and recovery for follow up shots. Of course the "BIG 7" is a loud, "pain in the ass" rifle and over penetration is a very real possibility, but the JFK team didn't seem to be concerned about collateral damage or the crowd hearing multiple shots from different locations. It must have been reassuring to know in advance that the media, the secret service and the commission that investigated would all be pulling for you to make it a successful hit. This may have required the team to use the same caliber rifles so that the lone nut story wasn't exposed by the recovery of a bullet in a different caliber. And, that may be why the assassination was so crappily executed. And, it's highly doubtful that the results would have been much improved had they used the Swedish caliber ( developed in 1891) instead of the antiquated Italian chambering.
If one were to choose a surplus military rife for the job, the swedish mauser would be the bomb!
"I just play to the goddess of music-and I know she's dancing."__Taj Mahal
#132. To: TooConservative (#125)
So do you believe it?
Actually, Jackie scrambling on the trunk to get skull pieces or brain pieces isn't that uncommon in the JFK genre.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
#133. To: tom007 (#132)
I have no idea what she was doing. She'd just seen her husband's head blown off and someone else in the car just got shot too so maybe she didn't remember or was reacting irrationally. People quite often behave in a dreamlike way in these situations. I don't think there's anything to win in the who-killed-JFK thing now. If they've withheld info, they've done pretty well at it. No matter what they say or do or what anyone proves or disproves about the event, most people will ignore it or be suspicious of it or whatever. The event is passing into mythology and history, not part of the nation's current political life. In a few more years, it will be fify years so it really is over, no matter how many questions some conspiracy mongers want to raise, well, that and books/movies they want to sell.
#134. To: TooConservative (#133)
It's a pity you don't offer insulting labels for those who have not only sealed the evidence but, have been caught lying about it. But, as any former KGB snitch will tell you, it takes no courage at all to agree with and suck up to the people who can drag you away in the middle of the night. And, for many Lilliputians the tippy toeing around the conspirators' crimes is certainly not without a great deal of thought on just how to appease the tyrants that so obviously frighten the timid souls among us. I never figured you for one of those. The good news is, our success or failure won't hinge on their support any more than it did during the American Revolution. And, BTW, our DOJ files conspiracy charges with nearly every felony indictment they seek. If a husband and wife mess up on a joint tax return it's "conspiracy to defraud the US Govt". They see conspiracies everywhere they look except when an assassin shoots a politician. In Europe it's always political "gangs" (like Bader Meinof-or crazed Muslims with shady connections to militant immigrant groups) that commit political assassinations, but in the US it's always a lone nut who sprouted in a vacuum, and "don't look too deeply into the kook's recent contacts with govt agents and "The ACE Tomato Company", thank you very much. So, go ahead and compliment the Emperor on his stunning new wardrobe. After all, you can always disappear the way those very vocal and smarmy Nixon supporters finally did when they realized how stupid they looked and in fact were and are.
...conspiracy mongers....
"I just play to the goddess of music-and I know she's dancing."__Taj Mahal
#135. To: HOUNDDAWG (#134)
Given the sheer variety of these various theories, it is necessary to recognize that not all of them can be correct. In fact, only 10%-20% of these theories can possibly be correct. Therefore, no matter how you slice it, at least 80% of these theories about the JFK murder must be conspiracy mongers. The same can be said for Truthers. There is no one single theory these groups promulgate. Sturm und Drang for JFK conspiracy theorists? Yeah, I'm sure thousands have been hauled away to Guantanomo. Generally, that is exactly what it is. I do oppose the stacking of charges as a corrupt juridical tactic. However, you should separate conspiracy theorists who are hypothesizing with people who commit fraud or are involved in drug peddling or murder and conspire to do so. Co-conspirators are not conspiracy mongers. People love to imagine that some earthshaking change will occur as a result of their proving of their particular theory. I don't think that is true. Particularly, I think you'd be surprised at how little would change if you proved LBJ killed JFK or BushCo LetItHappen or Yomama was proven to be born in Kenya. You overestimate the people, you give them too much credit.
It's a pity you don't offer insulting labels for those who have not only sealed the evidence but, have been caught lying about it.
But, as any former KGB snitch will tell you, it takes no courage at all to agree with and suck up to the people who can drag you away in the middle of the night.
And, BTW, our DOJ files conspiracy charges with nearly every felony indictment they seek. If a husband and wife mess up on a joint tax return it's "conspiracy to defraud the US Govt".
So, go ahead and compliment the Emperor on his stunning new wardrobe. After all, you can always disappear the way those very vocal and smarmy Nixon supporters finally did when they realized how stupid they looked and in fact were and are.
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