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Title: Film of DC rally (How many does it look like to you?)
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Published: Sep 14, 2009
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Post Date: 2009-09-14 12:37:53 by christine
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Views: 1162
Comments: 117
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#51. To: Flintlock, Cynicom, all (#47)
How does anyone on this forum know what RP thinks about that gathering Saturday? Maybe I have this wrong but his message to me has always been to change the Republican party from within. That's the least favorite method of change for me, but it's obvious that the march wasn't aroused or mobilized by the politics of a Dick Armey or any other establishment R. Armey, et al, might be trying to plant their flag in front of the parade, but IMO the true leadership hasn't yet bubbled up.
IMO, if the KKK, skinheads, Aryan Nations, etc. decided to hold an all expenses paid national conference in Hawaii, they'd have about 100 people show up, and half of those would be feds. They are a SPLC/ADL manufactured fund raising entity, nothing more.
Sure, no question. I was just looking for the most despicable examples. Fill in the blanks for whatever group(s) you may feel fit the definition of utterly grotesque. The power of this entire movement is that it has no real leaders and is organically self organized by individuals of no consequence standing up and saying 'no more'. It's a beautiful example of spontaneous order, in my opinion. Utterly different than how the statists work, who need to be organized by Supreme Leaders and told what to say, when to say it, and where to go.
MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.
Paul chose that method because he knows full well it is impossible. His own son is running as a bona fide republican. We saw the evidence on national TV when Paul never once took on McCain, instead he allowed himself to be laffed off stage.
I was in town for a different function. I had some free time on Saturday so I hopped on the Metro and checked out the rally/protest. I was too late to see the march so I headed toward the Capitol to check it out. Mudbot says he was there too. I didn't bump into him or anyone else I knew from over the years - too many people were there.
Yep, I see what's happening the same way. How the leadership vacuum is filled will determine it's future success, or lack thereof.
I was thinking Jim Robinson was there, strolling around in his wheelchair looking for some donations.
“Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.”
agreed. is it the detractors contention then that none of these people should have shown up to this event or any of the townhall/tea parties all over the country? events, btw, where R politicians get confronted and boo'ed. regarding Ron Paul, why hasn't he commented one way or the other? and, let me remind folks that he's doing an event with Michelle Bachmann.
Thing is, I don't see a 'vacuum' per se that needs filled. There's no lack of purpose or sense of direction that needs provided. This may well end up being fully spontaneous the entire time. I certainly hope so.
MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.
This is what those who just insist it must be some kind of R conspiracy utterly overlook, whether intentionally or out of ignorance.
MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.
I like your tag line. I had an eye out for a guy in a wheelchair, but it wasn't meant to be.
Was there a contingent of freepers there with signs waving, "FreeRepublic.com"?
“Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.”
Let the seniors figure out where that half of a check will come from with no help from you! ;) HAH! LOL ..... I like the way you think. ..... are you any relation to Saul Alinsky? ;-)
I was looking for FReakers, but like I said, the crowd was too big and lady luck wasn't on my side. I spent about 45 minutes looking and walking but I didn't bump into anyone. I suppose if I wanted to spend hours I might have found out where they were.
Since you got there late, what was the "feel" concerning the size of the crowd? I wasn't there but as you know that particular Washington DC demonstration was one of the LARGEST in history. And no arrests.
“Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.”
LOL. Escher could help in making folks look more numerous.
regarding Ron Paul, why hasn't he commented one way or the other? and, let me remind folks that he's doing an event with Michelle Bachmann. I was at a local event and can say unequivocally the Rs weren't appreciated, never mind leading it. I'm a person who hasn't voted for an R since Reagan, and haven't voted at all since '00 (Buchanan, Reform Party). Why detractors do what they do is why our tiny minority has been, and will always be fractured. We're independent souls, and each has their own take on politics. We should, however, celebrate what we saw Saturday. As to where RP was, wasn't he at a function w/Michelle Bachmann (R), the erstwhile "air head" many here believe? Tell me, if they believe that, what does it tell them about RP? SoL has a great point regarding leaderless resistance. Maybe this is an example? Time will tell. Time will also expose those "on our side" who haven't the ability to look a gift horse in the mouth.
You offer criticism, which is fine, but do you have more to give than that? If so, what? The campaign for liberty is actually a good plan. It just shouldn't allow itself to be co-opted by people who clearly are only pretending to agree. A movement filled with intelligent people making rational arguments will eventually grow. At that point the republicans or democrats will change their policy to gain there votes. Right now you guys are putting out on a mere promise of a chance in policy. A change that will not occur. Though the probable outcome is that nothing changes. The republican party has 10 retards for every intelligent conservative.
Since I had an ant's eye view vice bird's eye my opinion is mainly subjective. I would guess 100s of thousands were in attendance over the course of several hours. Again it is just a guess. Had I tried to make the march I don't think I could have gotten on the Metro to get there because the Crystal City one was packed to the gills/street. That might be a good source of data to explore - Metro traffic on the morning of 9/12. The Metro was very full when I tried to get on at about 12:30 and this was after the march had started.
No, I won't allow myself to join the Nazi's because the Commies are coming or vice versa. Though if the leadership was the leadership who are in charge of the tea parties, yes I would. It would have to be a pretty extreme leader for me not to. KKK, Nazi, Communist, Fundamentalist Christian theocracy, that type of stuff.
So, why would the MSM attempt to suggest it was a factor of ten less than what it was? Aren't these guys interested in BIG_STORIES any more? It is amazing to me, that we have to go outside the nation to find any accuracy in reporting anymore.
“Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.”
And what do you suggest? A 20 page ideological purity pre-entrance examination for everybody showing up at protests? Seriously, there's no way to filter, regardless of the group in question. We're not trying to create another debate club, like the Libertarian party. And they did kinda try the whole 'purist' mode, and it kept them marginalized. What we're seeing now, or at least I am, are people accepting more libertarian ideas fully, straight out of libertarian theory, and growing in their views and scope of political awareness. Yes yes, hangers on and flag planting wannabes are here trying to co-opt, but it's not taking. Not yet anyway. There is no way to get purity of ideas AND have a mass movement capable of changing the course of a society. Even the statists cannot achieve this, there is plenty of disagreement in their ranks, however, they are able to put up a unified front (albeit well directed and full of Strongmen Wannabes issuing orders) when they want something done. Right now our push is to stop the push by Obama and the progressives/fascists. That seems to be the only real goal that everybody agrees on. With that agreement in mind, we're achieving just that. Obama's term thus far has been an utter train wreck, precisely at a time in history when he should be able to line up every plank of the socialist party/fascist party and get them passed without opposition. Something to think about. We can stop him and his lackeys now, or we can perform anal examinations on each incoming person wanting to help, testing for ideological purity.
MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.
Why not just allow them to have their way with us. This method should propel some REAL change fairly quickly.
“Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.”
Stopping him from what? Look at Obama's tenure in office, he's pretty much been a moderate version of Bush. The question is why are all the Bushbots protesting what Bush did when it happens to be Obama? Because they are ignorant party shills. Thinking that they are engaging in some political revolution is really stupid. If Obama happened to be a republican, they'd be claiming he is single handedly saving America from economic ruin. They aren't rational people and they should be ignored. They aren't "getting the troops out" they are the generals leading them. So if you do beat Obama, the teabagging army will just vote in people Beck and Army tell them to. What you do when you ally yourself with people like Beck and Armey, is you lose all credibility with anyone who can rub two brain cells together. Its the reason why the youngest generation's best and brightest aren't going to be conservatives. In name only.
Goldi just posted this one about crowd estimates on elPee.... 69.55.11.240/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=273390&Disp=0 This sort of debate about the size of the crowds always occurs at a large event. I heard many quoting upwards of a million while I was on the street and on the Metro. I don't know. When I got back to the hotel and checked the Internet the first story I saw was WaPo reporting 10s of thousands...I knew the fix was in.
An establishment republican. Who until Obama got elected didn't give a shit about liberty. You are proving my point.
Because the goal should NOT be to have a civil war, that's why. If you can stop them dead in their tracks without a drop of blood being spilled, that is ALWAYS preferable to letting them put a boot on our collective necks such that we rise up and kill them. Violence in the real world is not fun, or an adventure. It's horrible, gruesome and revolting. It should never be wished for as a first order of business, and only used as a last recourse when all other options have been tried. So far, we're winning. There's no other way to see it. We've shot down every fascist attempt since Barry and Co. took office. With a full majority in Congress, both house and senate, they still can't get their dream list passed, a dream list which they all pretty much want. That's something. That's power. Our power. As a former soldier, as a person who respects, admires and practices many tenants of the warrior culture, I'm still utterly aware of how devastating society wide violence would be. We don't want that here, if we can avoid it. Giving up when victory is standing there inviting you to a big ol' smooch is absurd.
MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.
Not really. Maybe WE'RE the ones converting people. It happens. Individuals change their minds when presented with reason. Without our movement, Bachmann may have stayed the same as she was. Our views are still political suicide, to an insider, so her taking them up isn't quite as pat as you'd think.
MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.
I also find it interesting that 0bama skipped out of town that day. But his "speeches" in Minnesota were covered BIG_TIME. Tehese are the moments in history that we are lucky to see wherein the nation is imploding right before our eyes. Don't forget to tell your grand children about these events. The goal is to rebuild society as quick as we can without the nuisance of lies and propaganda fettering the future, too.
“Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.”
No but they aren't. They are using libertarian talking points on certain issues, but entirely disregard it everywhere else. This is how Glen Beck republicans can claim liberty for stock brokers, and health care, yet call for tyranny on the 4th amendment, terrorism, or war. The closest thing to fascists in our political spectrum are people like Glenn Beck. Progressives are socialists. Progressives aren't fascists. They may both be tyrannical but that is just about where their similarities end. These new republican allies still support a police state, still support a military state, they just want corporations to profit it from it more.
Please explain your paradoxical perspective.
“Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.”
Ok, we're all unthinking dupes and only you see it right. Government direction and policy dictation of the means of production while private hands hold deeds is now socialism and not fascism like it's always been in the past. We're all blind. My mistake. Sorry to bother you.
MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.
When I returned to the Virginia side I stopped to imbibe and watch some college football at restaurant/bar. One of the TVs was tuned to CNN and they had Obama in Minnesota speaking juxtaposed with the DC rally for a minute or two. I don't think it was a coincidence that Obama left town and visited a friendly state with a big turnout to dampen the DC rally coverage.
Well, it's not a paradox. What bill that Obama has pushed, since we've organized, has passed into law thus far? Cap & Trade - DOA. Government run medicine - DOA. ACORN is being defunded as I understand it. He got in a few shots with taking over the auto industry, right at the very beginning before were mobilized ourselves, once that happened, his batting average hit 0.0.
MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.
But those are new bills and organizations. His next renewed approach is a revised immigration bill immediately following 0bamaCare. The endless onslaught of BS is increasing not decreasing. I think you have a some sunglasses on.
“Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.”
You're talking about what you think might happen in the future. And there's no way to measure effect or impact on events which have not yet happened. Success or failure can only be judged by what has already happened. Using that, we're winning so far. What may or may not happen in the future is speculative at best right now. Only time will tell how we prevail or go down in flames. What I do know, however, is that throwing up our hands and saying "I surrender" before we've even acted is silly. If you cannot fight when violence is not on the table, there's no way you'll fight when it's the only option left. Men are doing the heavy lifting right now to avoid a fight, despite the gasoline pouring administration's efforts to make it otherwise. Give up if you want. Not my place to stop you.
MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.
Most of you are unthinking dupes yes. That is not the definition of fascism. Facism is an authoritarian nationalist ideology, that is economic policy is corporatism. Some republicans are fascists, but the leaders aren't really. They lack the nationalism. They are merely corporatists. But people like Glen Beck are (or most accurately pretend to be, Glen Beck is an actor) fascists. Socialism has a historical definition and a more common definition. The historical definition is government control of the means of production and egalitarian distribution of wealth. Under that definition the democrats are not socialists, and neither is Europe. The second more commonly used definition of socialism, is a mixed economy, with a welfare state. This is the type of socialists democrats are. And every industrialized nation is socialized, according to this definition, to varying degrees.
We're done. Thanks for the discussion. Later.
MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.
Thanks for the discussion. Later. Bye.
that's what i'm seeing. i'm as cynical as the next (or at least as cynical as cyni), but in this case, because of the number of participants at townhalls and the teaparties who i saw and heard were anti-tyranny and big government, i'm going to allow myself a little optimism. great post, SoL
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#52. To: SonOfLiberty (#50)
For example, if the KKK were openly organizing and pushing all of this, along with skinheads, neo-nazis and stormfront types, then I wouldn't even look in their direction.
#53. To: Jethro Tull (#52)
#54. To: Jethro Tull (#51)
(Edited)
That's the least favorite method of change for me,
#55. To: buckeroo, Mudboy Slim (#34)
?
#56. To: SonOfLiberty (#53)
The power of this entire movement is that it has no real leaders and is organically self organized by individuals of no consequence standing up and saying 'no more'. It's a beautiful example of spontaneous order, in my opinion.
#57. To: Fred Mertz (#55)
#58. To: Jethro Tull, Rhino369, Cynicom. Flintlock, SonofLiberty, robnoel (#51)
That's the least favorite method of change for me, but it's obvious that the march wasn't aroused or mobilized by the politics of a Dick Armey or any other establishment R. Armey, et al, might be trying to plant their flag in front of the parade, but IMO the true leadership hasn't yet bubbled up.
#59. To: Jethro Tull (#56)
#60. To: christine (#58)
events, btw, where R politicians get confronted and boo'ed.
#61. To: buckeroo (#57)
#62. To: Fred Mertz (#61)
#63. To: HOUNDDAWG, SonOfLiberty (#10)
It's up to us to start as many rumors as we can that will upset seniors. You know, when you have the attention of some oldsters say things like, "I heard Obama wants to include inner city children in social security and send them half a pension check each month!"
#64. To: buckeroo (#62)
#65. To: Fred Mertz (#64)
#66. To: HOUNDDAWG, Jethro Tull (#13)
"Okay guys, spread out and try to look more numerous! Take two steps forward and one step back and you'll be photographed in three places two seconds apart!'
#67. To: christine, Rhino369, Cynicom. Flintlock, SonofLiberty, robnoel (#58)
is it the detractors contention then that none of these people should have shown up to this event or any of the townhall/tea parties all over the country? events, btw, where R politicians get confronted and boo'ed.
#68. To: SonOfLiberty (#45)
Many have tried voting for Ron Paul, or Libertarians, or "take your pick". They voted, then they voted again, and voted voted voted voted. And here we are. So much for voting. Now what? What are your ideas? Do you even want there to be ideas or resistance (not a leading question, I'm being genuine)?
#69. To: buckeroo (#65)
Since you got there late, what was the "feel" concerning the size of the crowd?
#70. To: Jethro Tull (#46)
Let me give you a not so unrealistic hypothetical. Suppose Obama woke up one day and decided gun ownership wasn't in the best interest of Americans, and subsequently managed to get legislation that nullified our 2nd amendment. Would you stand with a group of that size who was united in opposition, regardless of who was in a leadership role? A simple yes or no will do.
#71. To: Fred Mertz (#69)
#72. To: Rhino369 (#68)
#73. To: SonOfLiberty (#72)
Right now our push is to stop the push by Obama and the progressives/fascists.
#74. To: Flintlock (#47)
Agreed, but stopping Obama should be priority #1
If it takes guys like Beck or Armey to get the troops out, I'll take it and be grateful for their efforts.
The last time I checked, RON PAUL IS A REPUBLICAN
#75. To: buckeroo (#71)
#76. To: christine (#58)
and, let me remind folks that he's doing an event with Michelle Bachmann.
#77. To: buckeroo (#73)
Why not just allow them to have their way with us. This method should propel some REAL change fairly quickly.
#78. To: Rhino369 (#76)
#79. To: Fred Mertz (#75)
#80. To: SonOfLiberty (#72)
What we're seeing now, or at least I am, are people accepting more libertarian ideas fully, straight out of libertarian theory, and growing in their views and scope of political awareness.
Right now our push is to stop the push by Obama and the progressives/fascists.
#81. To: SonOfLiberty (#77)
So far, we're winning. There's no other way to see it.
#82. To: Rhino369 (#80)
#83. To: buckeroo (#79)
I also find it interesting that 0bama skipped out of town that day. But his "speeches" in Minnesota were covered BIG_TIME.
#84. To: buckeroo (#81)
#85. To: SonOfLiberty (#84)
#86. To: buckeroo (#85)
#87. To: SonOfLiberty (#82)
Ok, we're all unthinking dupes and only you see it right.
Government direction and policy dictation of the means of production while private hands hold deeds is now socialism and not fascism like it's always been in the past.
#88. To: Rhino369 (#87)
Most of you are unthinking dupes yes.
#89. To: SonOfLiberty (#88)
We're done.
#90. To: SonOfLiberty (#72)
What we're seeing now, or at least I am, are people accepting more libertarian ideas fully, straight out of libertarian theory, and growing in their views and scope of political awareness. Yes yes, hangers on and flag planting wannabes are here trying to co-opt, but it's not taking. Not yet anyway.
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