[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Sign-in]  [Mail]  [Setup]  [Help] 

Status: Not Logged In; Sign In

Joe Rogan on Tucker Carlson and Ukraine Aid

Joe Rogan on 62 year-old soldier with one arm, one eye

Jordan Peterson On China's Social Credit Controls

Senator Kennedy Exposes Bad Jusge

Jewish Land Grab

Trump Taps Dr. Marty Makary, Fierce Opponent of COVID Vaccine Mandates, as New FDA Commissioner

Recovering J6 Prisoner James Grant, Tells-All About Bidens J6 Torture Chamber, Needs Immediate Help After Release

AOC: Keeping Men Out Of Womens Bathrooms Is Endangering Women

What Donald Trump Has Said About JFK's Assassination

Horse steals content from Sara Fischer and Sophia Cai and pretends he is the author

Horse steals content from Jonas E. Alexis and claims it as his own.

Trump expected to shake up White House briefing room

Ukrainians have stolen up to half of US aid ex-Polish deputy minister

Gaza doctor raped, tortured to death in Israeli custody, new report reveals

German Lutheran Church Bans AfD Members From Committees, Calls Party 'Anti-Human'

Berlin Teachers Sound Alarm Over Educational Crisis Caused By Multiculturalism

Trump Hosts Secret Global Peace Summit at Mar-a-Lago!

Heat Is Radiating From A Huge Mass Under The Moon

Elon Musk Delivers a Telling Response When Donald Trump Jr. Suggests

FBI recovers funds for victims of scammed banker

Mark Felton: Can Russia Attack Britain?

Notre Dame Apologizes After Telling Hockey Fans Not To Wear Green, Shamrocks, 'Fighting Irish'

Dear Horse, which one of your posts has the Deep State so spun up that's causing 4um to run slow?

Bomb Cyclone Pacific Northwest

Death Certificates Reveal FBI 'Revised' Murder Stats Still Bogus

A $110B bubble on $500M earnings. History warns: Bubbles always burst.

Joy Behar says people like their show because they tell the truth, unlike "dragon believer" Joe Rogan.

Male Passenger Disappointed After Another Flight Ends Without A Stewardess Frantically Asking If Anyone Can Land The Plane

Could the Rapid Growth of AI Boost Gold Demand?

LOOK AT MY ASS!


Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: A 'kitchen table' discussion abut DNA
Source: Examiner
URL Source: [None]
Published: Sep 9, 2009
Author: Greg West
Post Date: 2009-09-14 16:20:38 by Prefrontal Vortex
Keywords: None
Views: 84
Comments: 2

A 'kitchen table' discussion abut DNA

September 6, 8:15 PMLDS Church Examiner Greg West

In recent years, a bunch of anti-Mormon sectarians and atheists have jumped on the nascent science of DNA to try to disprove the Book of Mormon's veracity. The Book of Mormon relates that it was written by the descendants of two different ancient groups, one of which consisted of Jews from Jerusalem. Thus, critics and avowed enemies of the LDS Church were quick to try to disprove its claims using DNA.

A "kitchen table discussion" is what I call it when we have a family discussion with the kids. It's where we often talk about gospel principles in very direct, basic terms. Faith, for all its power, is a simple thing. The gospel can be understood by a child. We often over-complicate things as adults. My purpose here is not to debate scientific evidence we're not qualified to evaluate. I want to point out that man's understanding of the science of DNA doesn't have the capabilities our critics say that it does. If it did, since all truth comes from God, it would ultimately provide evidence in our favor.

Now, I'm not a scientist and you probably aren't either. What you and I "know" about DNA evidence is what we see on "CSI" on TV. One expert I saw recently on a news program stated that CSI is to DNA science what Star Trek is to space travel. In other words, Hollywood embellishes its capabilities for the sake of entertainment. We should not perceive what TV police dramas tell us about DNA is representative of what we can actually do today with DNA.

I once watched as my kids argued over which Star Trek, the original series, the New Generation, Voyager, Deep Space Nine, etc. were the most "realistic." As the argument got more heated, I had to intervene and declare that there really aren't starships, so even Kirk and Spock are hundreds of years in our future. The reality is that we have a 25 year-old space bus that can't go any higher than 400 miles up or faster than 18,000 miles per hour.

So, DNA on TV is like Kirk, Spock, warp drive, and the Vulcan mind-meld. The state of the art isn't what TV says it is. TV just needs to wrap up the story in time for one last round of commercials at 9:56 p.m.

What can DNA do? There are several companies out there that advertise "DNA genealogy." For around $120 (US) you can buy a kit with four cheek swaps that they analyze and tell you about your heritage. It sounds compelling. The ads ask, "Are You Related to Marie Antoinette?" or some other famous, historical figure. They track genetic markers and can tell you in general terms that your ancestors came from Germany, Ireland, Africa, or other areas of the world.

The correlation of the data of people who donate samples can help them make connections. For example, they might find out that you and I are distant cousins through Benjamin Franklin or Blackbeard the Pirate (Arrrrr, matey! Welcome to me family!) It's very general, but the results can be exciting. For African-Americans, whose ancestors came to America as slaves, it is very hard to find any documentation that would allow them to make the links back to their ancestors. The DNA technology can give you some interesting leads. But it also has some real limitations.

The critics of the Book of Mormon have made silly statements like, "Do Indians look Jewish to you?" Given there are Jews in every nation on earth, it comes across as bigoted and stereotypical. Through intermarriage, the seed of Abraham has been spread through the human gene pool for some 4000 years. Using an example from a CBS news story by Leslie Stahl, there are often "unanticipated" results from the DNA evidence.

One African-American woman, Vy Higginson, discovered that her family tree turns white a few generations up the line. From the CBS article:

"The American history Vy discovered is a common one it turns out. Geneticist Rick Kittles runs a company called African Ancestry that specializes in DNA testing for black Americans. He says a full one third of the men he tests find out they have a white male relative somewhere back in time.

"How do people who find this out react?

"Some black men get upset and say, 'Look, I'm black. Look at me, I'm black.' And you know and I say, 'Yeah, you are. But this small segment of your DNA doesn’t go back to Africa but to Europe,'" Kittles says. "We are a mosaic of many different ancestors. We can go back several generations and there are hundreds of people who, thousands of people who actually contributed to our DNA."

"And that's the rub. This business of genetic genealogy is fraught with limitations. For one thing, it can only provide information about a tiny fraction of our ancestry. Because we get half our DNA from our mothers and half from our fathers, almost all of our DNA gets shuffled and remixed every generation, making it impossible to trace what comes from whom. There are just two bits of DNA that remain pure - the "Y" chromosome, which passes directly from father to son, and something called mitochondrial DNA, which passes unchanged from mother to child." ('60 Minutes, Rebuilding the Family Tree)

One of the geneticists interviewed in the article discussed the limitations of the technology.

"Eight generations ago both you and I had 256 great-great-great-great-great-great grandparents," Greely points out. "It doubles every generation. So you've got two parents. You have four grandparents. You have eight great grandparents. Sixteen great-great grandparents. And it adds up fast. It adds up so fast in fact that if you go back 20 generations you've got over a million grandparents."

1,048,576 to be exact. And in each generation, DNA testing can provide information about only two of them.

"So you could be Peruvian on your mother's mother's mother's side, Japanese on your father's father's father's side. Swedish on everything else," Greely explains.

"And you'll never know?" Stahl asks.

"And you'll never know the Swedish from the 'Y' chromosome or the mitochondrial DNA," Greely says.

Vy and 60 Minutes went to several companies to run her DNA and find possible family trees. The results came back as a "shotgun" pattern of disparate locations in Africa.

"There's a place in Africa you could say that I'm from?" Vy asks.

"A tribe," Stahl says.

"A tribe? I'm thrilled," Vy says. "It puts a name, a place, a location, a people. It opens up such possibilities."

But the problem is Sierra Leone wasn't the only answer Vy got. A company called Relative Genetics found a match to a single person in the Wobe tribe in the Ivory Coast.

"Different? Now, I got all excited about that and this is different?" Vy asks. "Now, how could that happen?"

Then a third company, Trace Genetics, found that Vy's sequence matched sequences reported among multiple Mendenka individuals in Senegal.

And Family Tree DNA, the company that linked Vy with Marion in the first place, came up with a whole list of matches.

So what do we know about Vy’s ancestry? The DNA does indicate that she has distant relatives in the Mende tribe, but she also has relatives in all those other tribes. So no one can say for sure where Vy's maternal ancestor actually came from.

So as you can see, DNA has some real limitations. Paying customers get inconclusive results from these companies that are currently state-of-the art. Anti-Mormon critics who say that there are no links between a Jewish patriarch from Israel 2600 years ago, cannot make conclusive statements. DNA just can't do that yet. I am confident, when DNA testing gets to that level of discriminating detail, it will bear out that most all of us have genes from Abraham, Moses, Lehi, or other historical figures. Nobody wants to be related to Adolph Hitler or Benedict Arnold, but many of us will have bloodlines that intersect with those individuals.

Interestingly, just a few weeks after 60 Minutes covered this topic, Scott R. Woodward, executive director of Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation, announced the discovery of a DNA marker, called the "Cohen modal haplotype," sometimes associated with Hebrew people, in individuals native to Colombia, Brazil and Bolivia." Surprise, surprise!

It turned out that all the anti-Mormon critics had been jumping to conclusions based on low-resolution DNA tests that are used for population studies. When high-resolution tests (the type used by police forensics scientists to identify individuals, not large population groups) were done, genetic markers for Hebrew DNA showed up. LDS scientists accurately point out that this does not tell us how the DNA got there, whether by Lehi's descendants or by Spanish Conquistadores. It does indicate that Hebrew DNA is present, a possibility our critics ridiculed.

Even if it were possible to conclusively prove that the narrative of the Book of Mormon is plausible using DNA evidence, anti-Mormons would simply ignore the proof and change the subject. It is what they have continually done since our beginnings. The would not update their books, their videos, or their web sites. They would persist in using old, discredited information to deceive others even as they do today.

As the science advances, I'm confident that more evidence will emerge. However, you don't need to be a scientist to have faith in the gospel. You don't need to have a college degree to get a testimony. God provides the "proof" if we are humble, and if we approach him in prayer, with a pure desire to do his will. You can get an answer from God now and enjoy the blessings of living the gospel today instead of waiting years for DNA science, archaeology, or some other science to try to "prove" it to you.

Sitting around our "kitchen table" here, I hope this will give you some confidence in the face of those pseudo-intellectuals who would try to make you feel inferior because you believe in God, Christ, Joseph Smith, and the Book of Mormon. If they start to cite DNA evidence, just remember that Vy Higginson was surprised to find she had white ancestors. Life is full of surprises and unexpected twists and turns. One of the most surprising will be when the skeptics finally are silenced by the power of a farm boy, an angel, and some golden plates. Those who say that DNA "proves" the Book of Mormon is a fraud are simply misrepresenting the facts. They place their faith in the idols of man's mutable knowledge. As for me and my house, we'll have faith in the eternal gospel and the God who is the same today, yesterday, and forever.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

#1. To: Prefrontal Vortex (#0)

He says a full one third of the men he tests find out they have a white male relative somewhere back in time.

Didn't need a DNA test to tell you that.


"If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute." --Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791

farmfriend  posted on  2009-09-14   16:31:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Prefrontal Vortex (#0)

The LSD folks won't be getting a swab from any of my cheeks.

Iran Truth Now!

Lod  posted on  2009-09-14   16:36:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest


[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Sign-in]  [Mail]  [Setup]  [Help]