See other War, War, War Articles
Title: Did Weapons Fail U.S. Troops During Afghanistan Assault?
Source:
[None]
URL Source: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,563883,00.html
Published: Oct 11, 2009
Author: AP
Post Date: 2009-10-11 10:23:05 by Jethro Tull
Ping List: *Obama Reality Check* Subscribe to *Obama Reality Check*
Keywords: None
Views: 379
Comments: 40
WASHINGTON — In the chaos of an early morning assault on a remote U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either. When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents. Which raises the question: Eight years into the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, do U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy? Despite the military's insistence that they do, a small but vocal number of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq has complained that the standard-issue M4 rifles need too much maintenance and jam at the worst possible times. A week ago, eight U.S. troops were killed at a base near Kamdesh, a town near Wanat. There's no immediate evidence of weapons failures at Kamdesh, but the circumstances were eerily similar to the Wanat battle: insurgents stormed an isolated stronghold manned by American forces stretched thin by the demands of war. Army Col. Wayne Shanks, a military spokesman in Afghanistan, said a review of the battle at Kamdesh is under way. "It is too early to make any assumptions regarding what did or didn't work correctly," he said. Complaints about the weapons the troops carry, especially the M4, aren't new. Army officials say that when properly cleaned and maintained, the M4 is a quality weapon that can pump out more than 3,000 rounds before any failures occur. The M4 is a shorter, lighter version of the M16, which made its debut during the Vietnam war. Roughly 500,000 M4s are in service, making it the rifle troops on the front lines trust with their lives. Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., a leading critic of the M4, said Thursday the Army needs to move quickly to acquire a combat rifle suited for the extreme conditions U.S. troops are fighting in. U.S. special operations forces, with their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't, already are replacing their M4s with a new rifle. "The M4 has served us well but it's not as good as it needs to be," Coburn said. Battlefield surveys show that nearly 90 percent of soldiers are satisfied with their M4s, according to Brig. Gen. Peter Fuller, head of the Army office that buys soldier gear. Still, the rifle is continually being improved to make it even more reliable and lethal. Fuller said he's received no official reports of flawed weapons performance at Wanat. "Until it showed up in the news, I was surprised to hear about all this," he said. The study by Douglas Cubbison of the Army Combat Studies Institute at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., hasn't been publicly released. Copies of the study have been leaked to news organizations and are circulating on the Internet. Cubbison's study is based on an earlier Army investigation and interviews with soldiers who survived the attack at Wanat. He describes a well-coordinated attack by a highly skilled enemy that unleashed a withering barrage with AK-47 automatic rifles and rocket-propelled grenades. The soldiers said their weapons were meticulously cared for and routinely inspected by commanders. But still the weapons had breakdowns, especially when the rifles were on full automatic, which allows hundreds of bullets to be fired a minute. The platoon-sized unit of U.S. soldiers and about two dozen Afghan troops was shooting back with such intensity the barrels on their weapons turned white hot. The high rate of fire appears to have put a number of weapons out of commission, even though the guns are tested and built to operate in extreme conditions. Cpl. Jonathan Ayers and Spc. Chris McKaig were firing their M4s from a position the soldiers called the "Crow's Nest." The pair would pop up together from cover, fire half a dozen rounds and then drop back down. On one of these trips up, Ayers was killed instantly by an enemy round. McKaig soon had problems with his M4, which carries a 30-round magazine. "My weapon was overheating," McKaig said, according to Cubbison's report. "I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down." The soldiers also had trouble with their M249 machine guns, a larger weapon than the M4 that can shoot up to 750 rounds per minute. Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed the weapon. Bogar was killed during the firefight, but no one saw how he died, according to the report
Poster Comment: Obama's war loons strike again.
Subscribe to *Obama Reality Check*
Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest
#1. To: Jethro Tull, All (#0)
The grunts on the ground are the bait, and they always get the short end of the stick.
Anybody know which rifle they're buying?
Ted Kennedy Is Now Eligible To Vote In Chicago.
I haven't heard, but I bet we do hear soon.
I dont. All I know is the scurvy bunch in Washington hiding in their bunker need to spend a few days as bait in Afghan.
It seems to me that the lowest ranking of the grunts are starting to be heard. The high command tries to put a smiley face on the bleeding and dying but that wont work.
Lets extend that to all the trash who participated in the last November's selection. I'd like to single out the O'Piles for special praise, since they fell for the biggest lying bag of crap of a politician who ever graced our political scene.
Why would they do that? There's not a cocktail party or golf course within a thousand miles of the place.
Ted Kennedy Is Now Eligible To Vote In Chicago.
No, the gun companies have the best Congress money can buy.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope
One year from now Americans have the option of throwing out every member of the House in one fell swoop. Can we only imagine all those professional politicians with a death grip on power being sent home. What a glorious day that would be. However American will refuse the opportunity given them by the Founding Fathers. We are dumber than they anticipated.
If I were Obumski, Hillary, Biden and the rest of that scurvy lot, I would NEVER admit meeting deep underground in a "secure" room.
I think the broom is coming out of the closet and the scum will be changed out with newbies.
Colt M4 Carbine is a versatile weapon system with proven combat utility and performance providing the operator with the confidence required to accomplish any mission. Featuring a 14.5 in. (37 cm) barrel it is designed for use wherever lightness, speed of action, mobility and fire power are required. It can be comfortably carried, yet be instantly available to provide the power, accuracy and range of a 5.56mm Rifle. Proven in military operations, it stands alone as a first-line weapon system. Colt M4 Carbine is today's weapon of choice; the weapon of the 21st century soldier. The M4 Carbine is an extremely accurate and effective weapon under all practical field applications. It is a favorite with both first line infantry operations as well as special forces, unit commanders and vehicle crews. Available with a Safe/Semi/Full Auto 3-position selector (model R0977) the M4 Carbine is today’s weapon of choice. The M4 Carbine features a redesigned 4-position sliding buttstock allowing it to adapt to soldiers of different sizes and physical characteristics as well as various firing positions or clothing variations. Almost all mechanical components are interchangeable with those of the M16 rifle, ensuring quality, commonality of parts and reduced maintenance costs. The M4 Carbine barrel is designed to accept the M203 Grenade Launcher which can easily be assembled to the carbine offering the user both point and area firing capabilities. Also, all US and NATO rifle grenades can be fired without any supplementary equipment. Colt Defense LLC is the sole source supplier of the M4 Carbine to the US military and the only manufacturer worldwide that meets or exceeds all US military specifications for the weapon. http://www.colt.com/mil/M4.asp
The M-14 would get my vote, but with some lightening. Like a composite stock and alum. or synthetic mags. The M-14 was what I started out with and I'm not really large. It was easy enough to tote, but I was Art'y. The M-16 performed O.K. but did have a heat problem, there's just not enough mass. I once ran 2000 rounds through one in about an hour. When it got hot enough to cook-off the first round of a new mag. I'd have to let it rest a bit. But it didnt mal-function. But I'll still prefer the M-14.
Thats what I like about this place, we have experts on most any subject. All I know about guns is which end the slug comes out of. Algore didnt even learn that much.
New Machine Gun for Joes in Afghanistan October 09, 2009 Military.com U.S. Army infantry units are fighting in the mountains of Afghanistan with a special operations forces machine gun that’s 30 percent lighter than the standard M240B but still packs the killing power of 7.62mm NATO. Army weapons officials are fielding several hundred MK 48 MOD 1 machine guns in an effort to lighten the heavy loads ground forces, especially machine-gunners, struggle to carry over the country’s unforgiving terrain. The MK 48, made by FN Manufacturing LLC, was first adopted by Navy SEAL teams in 2000. The elite commando units needed a reliable 7.62mm machine gun that was light enough to carry on fast-moving raids and other special missions. “It’s a great assault gun,” said Army Col. Doug Tamilio, the head of Project Manager Soldier Weapons, the command that overseas Army small arms. At 18.26 pounds, the MK 48 is about nine pounds lighter than the 27.5-pound M240B. But the 550 MK 48s being fielded are not the beginning of a move to replace the Army’s beloved M240B, also made by FN Manufacturing, Tamilio said. It’s a short-term fix until next year when the Army begins fielding the lighter version of the M240B—the M240L. The MK 48 fielding is intended to quickly “get something in the hands of soldiers to fight with in the mountains of Afghanistan ,” Tamilio said. The weapon’s appearance resembles the M249 squad automatic weapon, also made by FN Manufacturing. It has the same ergonomic fixed polymer stock and pistol grip. But unlike the 5.56mm M249, the MK 48 is chambered for the potent 7.62mm NATO round and is capable of spitting them out at a cyclic rate of fire of 720 rounds per minute. The MK 48, while highly reliable, wasn’t designed to offer the long-term durability found in the M240 series machine gun, said Jim Sharp, deputy director for crew-served weapons for FNH USA. The MK 48’s receiver will last about 50,000 rounds compared to the M240’s 100,000-round receiver lifespan. Tamilio agrees. “It’s a much lighter gun, both in weight and materials,” he said, describing how the MK 48’s bolt will have to be replaced after about 15,000 rounds while the M240s will last for about 100,000 rounds. Despite its durable reputation, the M240 is too heavy to carry long distances, especially up and down steep mountain trails. In some cases, units have chosen to sacrifice firepower to save weight on multi-day foot patrols in Afghanistan ’s Korengal Valley , by leaving their M240s at their combat outposts, Army officials maintain. The MK 48 “breaks away from the traditional support-by-fire position of your heavy or medium machine gun,” said Pedro Gomes, marketing manager for tactical weapons at FNH USA . Before coming to FN, Gomes served as an infantry captain in the Army’s 4th Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division (Stryker Brigade Combat Team). He deployed to Iraq from April 2007 to June 2008. “I didn’t use my 240s dismounted; I kept them always mounted on the vehicle” for highly mobile support fire, he said. The MK 48 “gives you the option of bringing that higher caliber, more powerful round inside the maneuver box,” Gomes said. Back to the Minimi’s 7.62 Heritage The MK 48 is very similar to FN’s original Minimi design, which was chambered for 7.62mm when it first appeared in the mid-1970s, Sharp said. When the Army went shopping for a new squad automatic weapon in the 1980s, it chose the Minimi design but in the 5.56mm version, which became the M249 SAW. FN built a streamlined version of the M249, known as the MK 46, for the SEALs in 1998. Two years later, the SEALs asked FN to build them a 7.62mm version of the 46 and the MK 48 MOD O was born. Since then, the MK 48, like the MK 46, has been very popular among Special Operations Command units, such as the 75th Ranger Regiment. Like most modern machineguns, the MK 48 fires from the open bolt to reduce the risk of rounds cooking off during sustained firing. When the weapon is loaded, the feeding operation begins when the trigger is squeezed. This lowers the sear and starts the bolt moving forward. A roller that sits on top of the bolt assembly travels down the feed lever, forcing it to pivot from left to right. This sets the feed-pawl assembly into action. It pushes the first round on the belt of ammunition into the tray groove. Dave Hall, a retired Navy SEAL team senior chief petty officer, described the MK 48 as “simple to operate, simple to take apart” and “very, very reliable.” While deployed in Afghanistan in 2005, Hall’s team primarily used the MK 48 mounted in pairs atop their vehicles. His unit didn’t need to carry its MK 48s in the dismounted role, but he agreed that the weapon is light enough that “if you need to break it off the vehicle and use it somewhere else, you could.” Hall didn’t find durability to be a problem. “We shot them quite a bit,” he said, adding that firing accurate bursts at “500 to 600 meters was pretty routine.” The MK 48’s accuracy at such ranges would come in handy when engaging enemy armed with AK47s and rocket propelled grenades—weapons that greatly lose their effectiveness beyond 300 meters, Hall said. “You are way outside of that—you could just eat their lunch with that thing,” Hall said. “I think the MK 48 is an excellent balance of accuracy and reliability.”
A decent intro here.
Thanks LOd... I was never cut out to be a grunt, I can run too fast in reverse.
That's really key in a full-auto, let's a little fresh air move thru the action and barrel. And it's a problem with the 16.
Same here. That's why I enlisted for the ART'Y. With the plus that you RIDE almost everywhere, even when you are Attacking toward the Rear.
"Cpl. Jonathan Ayers and Spc. Chris McKaig were firing their M4s from a position the soldiers called the "Crow's Nest." The pair would pop up together from cover, fire half a dozen rounds and then drop back down. On one of these trips up, Ayers was killed instantly by an enemy round. McKaig soon had problems with his M4, which carries a 30-round magazine. "My weapon was overheating," McKaig said, according to Cubbison's report. "I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down." The soldiers also had trouble with their M249 machine guns, a larger weapon than the M4 that can shoot up to 750 rounds per minute. Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed the weapon. Bogar was killed during the firefight, but no one saw how he died, according to the report."
October 09, 2009 Military.com Finally, a new M-60.
FN is developing some excellent weapons. Their FiveSeveN is an amazing sidearm that for reasons unknown to me, was not selected by NATO in their last competition for a new handgun.
Interesting and pretty well informed discussion here on AR15 / M4.
Not from me. We were issued .45s when overseas...but no ammo... The Sgt. in charge said, "no ammo cause you might shoot yourself". He was smiling to suppress a laff.
Thanks for the link.
Seriously? If true, why didn't they just issue hammers?
deleted
deleted
deleted
:P
If true, why didn't they just issue hammers? Serious indeed. In case you are interested. And lets see if you draw the correct conclusion. We were issued .45s, no ammo, while we were in the Islands and Japan, etc etc. If we had been called upon to journey OVER China or Russia, we were to be given one clip.
I love the thots of a good hemp party.
I think it's a game called who's our buddy, and who's our enemy this decade. And for bonus points, name the continent where we'll make war next.
deleted
Lod... What was the .45 for???
Save the last The AK-47 would be a quality choice. A lot cheaper too.
LOd... Unwritten regulation, understood by all, never written anywhere, never spoken about but understood by all. This round is for me. It does make a much older and wiser man out of a kid. To the point that you become quite cynical and it is not easy for anyone to BS you.
A shame that F.G.Powers forgot. But in the grand scheme of things, it probably makes no difference.
In the chaos of an early morning assault on a remote U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.
#2. To: Jethro Tull, All (#0)
U.S. special operations forces, with their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't, already are replacing their M4s with a new rifle.
#3. To: Flintlock (#2)
#4. To: Flintlock (#2)
Anybody know which rifle they're buying?
#5. To: Jethro Tull (#3)
I bet we do hear soon.
#6. To: Cynicom (#4)
All I know is the scurvy bunch in Washington hiding in their bunker need to spend a few days as bait in Afghan.
#7. To: Cynicom (#4)
the scurvy bunch in Washington hiding in their bunker need to spend a few days as bait in Afghan.
#8. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
do U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy?
#9. To: Jethro Tull (#6)
bag of crap of a politician who ever graced our political scene.
#10. To: Flintlock, Jethro Tull, All (#7)
Why would they do that?
#11. To: Cynicom (#9)
#12. To: Flintlock (#2)
Anybody know which rifle they're buying?
#13. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
"Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., a leading critic of the M4, said Thursday the Army needs to move quickly to acquire a combat rifle suited for the extreme conditions U.S. troops are fighting in."
#14. To: ndcorup, randge, Jethro tull (#13)
#15. To: Flintlock. shooters here (#2)
Email from neighbor whose SF son was in A-stan six months prior to the announced invasion -
#16. To: ndcorup (#13)
#17. To: All (#15)
#18. To: Lod (#17)
#19. To: Lod (#15)
"Like most modern machineguns, the MK 48 fires from the open bolt to reduce the risk of rounds cooking off during sustained firing."
#20. To: Cynicom (#18)
"I was never cut out to be a grunt, I can run too fast in reverse. "
#21. To: ndcorup, All (#19)
#22. To: Lod (#15)
New Machine Gun for Joes in Afghanistan
#23. To: ndcorup. all (#19)
#24. To: Jethro Tull, Lod, Cynicom (#16)
#25. To: randge, Jethro tull, Lod, All (#24)
Interesting and pretty well informed discussion
#26. To: randge (#24)
#27. To: Cynicom (#25)
We were issued .45s when overseas...but no ammo...
#28. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
#29. To: All (#0)
#30. To: Cynicom (#4)
#31. To: Eric Stratton (#28)
#32. To: Lod (#27)
Seriously?
#33. To: Eric Stratton (#30)
...or testing the tensile strength of rope.
#34. To: Cynicom (#32)
#35. To: Cynicom (#33)
#36. To: Lod (#34)
#37. To: Cynicom (#36)
dance round for me. It was a big hit, back when.
#38. To: Flintlock (#2)
Anybody know which rifle they're buying?
#39. To: Lod (#37)
#40. To: Cynicom (#39)
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest