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Title: Hitchens: Christianity Is A Fraud If It’s Not Literally True
Source:
RAW STORY
URL Source: http://rawstory.com/2009/10/hitchens-christianity-fraud/
Published: Oct 26, 2009
Author: By David Edwards and Daniel Tencer
Post Date: 2009-10-26 11:32:20 by Brian S
Keywords: None
Views: 1690
Comments: 98
If the story of Jesus Christ isn't literally true, then Christianity is a fraud that promotes "a positively wicked doctrine," conservative writer Christopher Hitchens told Fox & Friends Monday morning. Hitchens, an avowed atheist whose 2007 book God is Not Great attempts to divorce conservatism from religious teachings, discussed the role of religion in American society in the wake of a recent study (PDF) that shows the number of Americans who claim no religious affiliation has roughly doubled in the past two decades, from 8.2 percent in 1990 to 15 percent in 2008. The study, conducted by Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut, predicts that a full one-quarter of Americans will have no religious affiliation by 2028. The study notes that the number of non-believers among younger people is considerably higher than among older people, suggesting that the trend of Americans growing less religious will continue in coming years. Those people who claim no religious affiliation are "not all atheists by any means," Hitchens told host Gretchen Carlson. "They're just people who don't attend a church, don't have a faith. I think it's fair to call them agnostics. The number of people, like myself, who think religion is false, that it's a delusion and that it's bad for you, is still pretty small." Hitchens said Americans are increasingly turning against organized religion "because they want to push back against theocracy and the parties of God and the awful challenge they pose to us internationally." "By the way, your side seems to be winning in public schools, at least across America," Carlson told Hitchens. Hitchens appeared on Fox with pastor Douglas Wilson, who appeared along with Hitchens in the recent documentary Collision, which explores the battle of ideas between the religious and the non-religious. The two came to an unexpected agreement on one issue: They both attacked the notion, popular among some secular thinkers, that Christianity is a socially positive thing even if it's not true. "If Jesus didn't come back from the dead, then Christianity is appalling, it's an appalling fraud and delusion and every unbeliever should attack it," Wilson said. "Christianity is not good for the world because it makes people decent and sober and that sort of thing. At the end of the day, if it's not true, if it's not objectively true, then I don't have any more use for it than Christopher does." Hitchens echoed that idea, but made it clear he does actually consider Christianity a fraud. "They say, well the Bible story's not really true, they're morality tales. Don't listen to it, because if it's based on a fraud, if the virgin birth and the resurrection and the miracles did not occur, which they did not, then those teachings are immoral, they teach that sins can be forgiven by throwing them on to a scapegoat -- a positively wicked doctrine."
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#34. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#16)
More like playing with fire.
Search [or see below]: The Vatican created Islam. [Warning: The David Icke article shut down my computer]. The purpose is to destroy the true church. So which church is the "true" church? Don't tell me. The one you belong to right?
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
Like I said, Scrapper, you have a problem with what Jesus said...
The problem in many 'faith' churches and other places is that a 'dual covenant' in effect is being taught. The 'jews' get another shot because they've been blinded, etc. It would be nice if they could all see; just as if WE could ALL see...
Organized religion is a fraud in most instances. It's an arm of the government in some cases. Hitchens is on a mission and he's a fraud too.
The U.S. Govt has become a tyrannical butcher; U.S. taxpayers are accomplices to international murder and mayhem. If you satisfy your fears by bowing to this butcher, you forfeit your humanity and possibly your soul.
Do you also believe that Reptilian humanoids control the world as David Icke contends?
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
Does explain a lot :)
"Satan / Cheney in "08" Absolutely. Islam means submission, the Muslims clerics love it, as they are the ones being submitted to.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" What's wrong with that? Everybody knows most nig-nogs are usless
Ted Kennedy Is Now Eligible To Vote In Chicago.
You touched on quite a bit there. I personally believe the Eastern Church has maintained the teachings and traditions of Christianity. That said, if (you) can find peace in this life through any church/denomination/religion or none of the above, by all means. I have too much on my own plate to worry about whether someone is in the "correct" denomination or not. But I do reserve the right to air out disagreements in a civil and merciful/loving manner. The other thing you touched on is something I've recently comes across in my journey, but in reality, has been staring me in the face for years. I posted on it in another thread some time ago. In the East, heaven and hell are both in the presence of God. Hell is a condition. Think old Greek for a second. Doing "the good" and just. God is perfect love. Those who did good in this life find the perfect love of God to be a warmth and comfort. Those who rejected good and justice find that same love of God to be a reminder of that rejection and for them, it is a form of torment. It's like coming out of a dark room into brightly lit one. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is an illustration of heaven and hell both in the presence of God. The parable shows us the gulf is a spiritual one, not a physical one. The Scriptures in the West were altered to make hell a place of punishment outside of the presence of God. It was to keep people afraid and "in line". The Protestant forefathers most likely would not recognize the contemporary notions of heaven and hell. God has been turned into a sadistic and psychopathic judge who screams, love me or I'll kill you. Judgment is not going to be some judicial trial. Rather, it will be a cattle contest. Who was the sheep in this life and who was the wolf.
"What began in Russia will end in America."- 1930, Elder Ignatius of Harbin, Manchuria.
"They say, well the Bible story's not really true, they're morality tales. Don't listen to it, because if it's based on a fraud, if the virgin birth and the resurrection and the miracles did not occur, which they did not, then those teachings are immoral, they teach that sins can be forgiven by throwing them on to a scapegoat -- a positively wicked doctrine." Why did Chris Hitchens become a Bible scholar again? "They say"..."They say..."They say"...WHO, Chris?? The historical events and truths reported and witnessed by many will continue to be challenged - and understandably so. After all, there was no CNN 2000, 3000, 4000 years ago or Dan Rather. How many Apostles should have Christ enlisted to be believed? 10? 20? 1,000? How many witnesses to the miracles were needed? To Christs' resurrection? Even "doubting Thomas" believed ONLY when he saw Christs' wounds. My friends - only a very stupid, sloppy God would create all the heavens and earth and mysteries of the universe without leaving a documented instruction manual. Hitchens says we're an accident - and even if we aren't, God's a Liar. Some of us know better and reach for God's hand - NOT necessarily a "religion." Nothing we already don't know - Either the miracles, prophecies, Creation and especially the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Old Testament (which Christ Himself often referred to) are a lie....Or THE absolute truth. Though many DO compromise, there can be no compromise on the literal truth of the Bible - beginning with "In the Beginning..." You know what the most incredible thing is? If at 11:59 of Hitchen's pathetic life he somehow asks Christ into his life and admits he's a "sinner," he's "saved." Simply Awesome.
Of course it's tough. Satan makes it tough because we are ALL selfish, lazy, and imperfect liars, cheats, and thieves. TOTALLY unworthy of Heaven. Good thing Christ is picking up the tab, eh? All you need to do is maintain your own faith, and not worry or become distracted or derailed so much about the sins and hypocrisy of fellow sinners like me. I wish I could be better. Btw, is "making fun of blacks" any different than making fun of fat people? Dopey people? pathetic drunks and fools? Why...NO.
Well that's true - the owner of LP does insult Christians.... Btw, I'm flagging you 15 yards for a personal foul, JT. I still think that if a person follows the teachings of Lord Buddha, Do harm to no one. Always be honest and truthful. Always seek wisdom, that if there's a God.?,, you'll be rewarded by him (who ever he is) in some type of "afterlife,", and if there isn't a "God", we've got to make the best of this life. Om Mani Padme Hum..>>!!!!
This is true. Without conservative Christians, free spirits like Hitchens are lined up or enslaved for their entire one and only life. However, his actual mission is dragging down others into the abyss of hopelessness and nothingness just for spite.
Siz, you're a good man, but still ISO. That's a good thing... But there is no Lord but Christ. Why gamble with your soul and shot at paradise?
I have to laugh at so called "intellectuals" who are "too smart" to believe in an Almighty God. Why couldn't he actually use mere humans to give His "instructions" rather than show up at the foot of their beds IN PERSON? ;-)
Just imagine, if our leaders, the politicians, and the officers of law enforcement followed the simple teachings of Lord Buddha. Do harm to no one. Always be honest and truthful. Always seek wisdom, www.youtube.com wouldn't have a zillion videos of police brutality, WHO wouldn't be attempting to spread a planet wide plague, and Obummer wouldn't be what he is either.
If you'd like to peruse a fascinating theoretical insight into the history of the Vatican: http://www.amazon.com/Woman-Rides-Beast-Catholic-Church/dp/1565071999/ref=sr_1_1/187-3437545-3151925?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256611980&sr=8-1
In short, it began with the forefathers of Christian Zionism 150-200 years ago. Darby and Scofield after him twisted the Abrahamic Promise and fused the fate of Christians to that of Jewish Zionism. God promised Abraham the He would make Abraham a father of many nations, more land than they eye could see, his house would number as the stars and God would bless those that blessed Abraham and curse those who cursed him. Today, this promise is seen as those who bless Israel, God will bless. Those who curse Israel, God will curse. This promise has many layers to it in reality. Abraham was in a state of "death". He thought he was seeing the end of his days with no heir and no lands to pass down. God brought Abraham from death to life. This is also a prophecy of the coming Christ. Through Adam, death and corruption entered. Christ fulfilled what Adam could not, restored creation, destroyed death by death and offers us life. Abraham would have complete understanding of this by earlier having met the three angles outside his tent, one of whom was the Word Incarnate; God making this covenant; and God would eventually ask Abraham to sacrifice his only son. Christ, of one essence with the Father, is "father" to all (many) nations. Through Christ, we too pass from death to life. These "heirs" number more than the stars in the sky. And those who follow God and do good in this life will find a blessing in the next one. Those who do not, risk that condition of a spiritual hell in the next one.
"What began in Russia will end in America."- 1930, Elder Ignatius of Harbin, Manchuria.
Even better - the teachings of Christ. With the bonus of Everlasting Life... But siz - even Buddhists lie, cheat, steal,etc. As to "wisdom," isn't it in the eye/ear of the beholder or beholdee?
You should go back for a month and see if you missed anything. I'll guess you have.
The irony is sickening. I guess the adage of "the enemy of my enemy..." is in effect here. Except Hitchens hates everyone and everything. Never does their God tell the Apostles to use the force of government to steal from one group in order to give to another, whether that other be the poor (who receive very little or the largess) or the government bureaucrats (who receive the majority of the ill-gotten booty). Oh, and if you disagree, then you are a "bad Christian." Great point. IMHO, the "great experiment" has failed. There is a reason that the majority of humanity was subjugated to serf status throughout history. Man is not able to live in freedom and liberty. Not because he cannot, but because he refuses to. It's too much responsibility for most and because they cannot handle the responsibility, they do not want those who CAN handle it to have it. You're probably right; Man is too lazy and greedy and covetous to ever maintain his true freedom.
Sometime they (we) do; The frustration of having our personal liberties, heritage and earnings stolen in broad daylight will do that...For now, venting on these boards will suffice in lieu of actually smacking and swatting away the REAL "sociopaths." Now don't tell me you're not going to defend yourself and just fork over your lunch-money, the clothes on your back, and your kids?
Everlasting Life... Amen, and if "Christ" is a fair and openminded guy, he'll be fair with all of us, when that time comes, who've led good, honest, and clean lives.
"....THE POPE AND ONE WORLD RELIGION / GOVERNMENT Pope Calls for a United Europe Pope Calls for a New Age of Peace and Harmony Mystery Babylon the Great Hear ya. It's a trip, ain't it?
As the Ultimate Judge He WILL be "fair." He's the ONLY ONE who will decide a Jew, Buddhist, a Muslim, or even an athiest there destination. But why let it come down to His Judgment? Siz - we are ALL "dirty"; None of us is good enough on our own merits. That's the point. Is 99% good, clean and honest "clean enough" in God's eyes? Not really...
I doubt you meant it the way it sounded, but I'm just letting you know how your words come across to me, at least. Pretty well articulated; Probably why Christians are resented. It's a matter of style, and I absolutely understand. Arrogance in Christians is a problem. True humility is always the way.
That's just it, our "destination" after we die is a never ending "mystery," like a "saga."
I'll have none of it. If this Christian God want's me to worship him like some egomaniacal tyrant with a low self-esteem, then he can damn well appear before me and tell me which denomination is the one I should be following. Until then, he can kiss my ass. It's all pretty simple, HF. The Gospel is IT. Of course religious profiteers have exploited the faith - no one more than the Vatican.... Holding a grudge against God and His Plan because man's "religions" monopolize "heaven's rules" like Club 54 exclusivity doesn't make sense. Who are you spiting by rejecting Salvation but your own soul? That said, I understand where you're coming from.
NOT for a Christian. Well, lemme clarify - the extent and concept of paradise is immeasurable. The worse-case "mystery" at the end of our respective saga can be like Monte Hall's Let's Make A Deal...and having guessed wrong by trading that '63 Vette you'd already "won" for a tiny gift-wrapped box, hoping for a wad of billion dollar bills.
That scenerio would fall into the "greed" catagory. Greed is one of the seven deadly sins.
Who gives two shits what this rum soaked commie turned conservative writer thinks about anything?
Obama's health care plan shall be written by a committee whose head says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that hasn't read it, signed by a president who smokes and has no birth certificate, funded by a treasury chief who did not pay his taxes, overseen by a surgeon general who is overweight and financed by a country that is nearly broke. What could possibly go wrong? - buckeroo Hitchens is a self-promoting, self-inflated, flagellance sniffing suck ass that scream out in arrogance about a God he doesn't care to understand ... mostly because Hitchens is his own god. I don't care for those claiming brilliance all the fucking time yet refuse to offer one iota of supporting evidence ! Brilliance and Arrogance do not share the same address.
The U.S. Govt has become a tyrannical butcher; U.S. taxpayers are accomplices to international murder and mayhem. If you satisfy your fears by bowing to this butcher, you forfeit your humanity and possibly your soul.
The veil slips - Hitchens' use of the word "scapegoat". Now we know the reason for Hitchens' visceral hatred and demonization of Christianity. Try as he might to make this curious vendetta sound like an intellectual exercise, there's no denying that Hitchens wants to put a stake through the heart of Christian theology because he believes Christianity is the reason his tribe was persecuted. Were it not for Christianity, Jews would bask in the love of humanity throughout the ages. Lalalalala... Hitchens has a serious chip on his shoulder - he should grow up and see reality for what it is.
Hitchens is a living, breathing, walking, talking personification of original sin.
George W. Bush ... => U.S. SCREWED. Sometime they (we) do; The frustration of having our personal liberties, heritage and earnings stolen in broad daylight will do that...For now, venting on these boards will suffice in lieu of actually smacking and swatting away the REAL "sociopaths." I disagree that this has anything to do with it. The anger people feel towards their government is a righteous anger born out of a government that is acting outside of its legal and moral boundaries (regardless of what the USSC says). The government knows it is wrong and most of the people know that it is wrong. That is why the government is intruding more and more into our lives. It has nothing to do with terrorism and everything to do with protecting their asses. I'm talking about their dancing in the blood of women, children and dead American soldiers for their own blood lusts. They go way beyond wanting to "protect America." They thrive and receive enjoyment in the death of others, even if those others are American soldiers. They just can't get enough.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat
I say that as a former Southern Baptist who was horrified by both the blood lust of the congregation and its propensity to practically WORSHIP Dubya in the days and years after 9/11. Their brains literally shut down and went into reptilian mode. It took me until 2005 to stop completely my association with the "brethren," because I still enjoyed the "fellowship," I suppose. I didn't lose faith in God, but I now have NONE in the Baptist and related denominations. And very well said to you, Sam. My Mom and Dad both grew up in fundamentalist faiths. I loved them dearly as I loved all of that group of antecedents with whom I became personally acquainted. They were a diverse bunch but if a scoundrel existed in their midst, I never recognized him or her. But about three decades ago I converted to Roman Catholicism. I was persuaded to do so by a wide ranging host as diverse as St. Augustine to Gilbert Chesterton, and many, many others. I found Chesterton a joy to read, a master of communication, speaking in short and perceptive ways, including parables. His words ring as fresh and true today as when written nearly a century ago. One of my favorite Chesterton quotations goes "When people cease to believe in God, they don't believe in nothing; they believe in anything." Hear ye, global climate loons. Just my two cents.
George W. Bush ... => U.S. SCREWED. I remember discussing this subject with a nun back in my Catholic grade school days. We were discussing the American indians and jungle natives(say the ones who led good lives as you mentioned in your example) who never knew of Christianity-pre 1600 days. Since they were not "saved" would they be subject to a guaranteed ride to hell because they never knew about Jesus and Christ. According to her, yes. This when I started to question the church.
This is obviously a "deep" subject which has been on the minds of men for centuries.
Many thoughtful men would like to drop this troublesome doctrine, but without it the whole house of cards will come tumbling down.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestIslam is a tool of the Vatican.
#35. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#16)
Islam is a tool of the Vatican.
#36. To: scrapper2 (#31)
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams 
#37. To: Itistoolate (#32)
What I can't figure out is the 'close relationship' of Jews and Christians. Christians believe Christ is the Son of God (Immaculate Conception) and the Jews deny what Christians believe
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#38. To: PaulCJ (#10)
(Edited)
Are you talking about "Christianity" as organized religion?
#39. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#16)
(Edited)
The David Icke article
#40. To: Hayek Fan (#39)
Do you also believe that Reptilian humanoids control the world
#41. To: noone222 (#38)
It's an arm of the government in some cases.
#42. To: belmontconservative (#1)
I see so many so called Christians today on chat forums that for example make fun of black people(read LP)
#43. To: Hayek Fan (#24)
#44. To: Mother Gaia, Carl Sagan, Gene Roddenberry, God, all (#0)
(Edited)
Hitchens (after tipping back his 6th JD of the morning):
#45. To: belmontconservative (#1)
I still am trying to remain a Christian but sometimes it tough. I see so many so called Christians today on chat forums that for example make fun of black people(read LP) and I deal with many hard core so called "Christian" business owners who beat their chest over their strong faith in God and have a bible on their desk but are the most greediest, lying hypocrites you ever run across.
#46. To: Jethro Tull (#2)
(Edited)
The owner of LP insults Christians, and after some self righteous puffery, some trot back to her like well trained puppies. It's a sorry sight.
#47. To: Brian S (#0)
#48. To: Sam Houston (#3)
Hitchens, the Southern Baptists and their ilk are ALL that's left of the "movement," basically. There is no way for so-called "conservatives" or "neos" such as yourself ever to win elections without them.
#49. To: sizzlerguy (#47)
#50. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#5)
That's his problem.
#51. To: Liberator (#49)
#52. To: PaulCJ (#12)
I have a question. How does importing tens of millions of muslims into Europe benefit the Vatican?
#53. To: Itistoolate (#32)
What I can't figure out is the 'close relationship' of Jews and Christians.
#54. To: sizzlerguy (#51)
#55. To: belmontconservative (#1)
I was raised a Catholic but have not gone to church regulary the last 2-3 years.
#56. To: Hayek Fan (#15)
What I find funny is how a confessed liberal is admired by conservatives today all because he is pro-war. Forget the fact that prior to baby Bush he was considered an enemy because of his big government beliefs. I never would have thought I'd see the day when a life long liberal would be able to use his popularity among the supposed conservative movement to "attempt to divorce conservatism from religious teachings." If he had tried this 20 years ago, he would be pissing in the wind and no one would read his book or give him any publicity, yet now he's on Fox. LOL! We are living in Bizarro world.
#57. To: Hayek Fan (#15)
It is no wonder people turn their backs on this sham called Christianity. Look at those who claim to be Christians today. The majority are blood dancing sociopaths filled with hate and loathing for their fellow man. Just read the comments of the proclaimed Christians on TOS2. Sweetjustice, Bob Celeste, David Ben Ariel, JoeSnuffy, rifle22. These people can't get enough of other people's blood. They want to kill, kill, kill everyone and everything.
#58. To: Liberator (#54)
Christ
#59. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#16)
The "NWO" may hope to join the world into One under the Pope:
#60. To: sizzlerguy (#58)
Amen, and if "Christ" is a fair and openminded guy, he'll be fair with all of us, when that time comes, who've led good, honest, and clean lives.
#61. To: scrapper2, AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#23)
What I'm suggesting to you is that even to Christians, never mind to those of other faiths, it is very off-putting to hear that sort of holier than thou, haughty, smugness as in... we're in the cat bird's seat, we've got the inside track to enjoying eternal life, and we're so generous we're praying that folks of other faiths get on board and see things the way Christians do because that's only route to salvation.
#62. To: Liberator (#60)
destination.
#63. To: Hayek Fan (#24)
I reject the idea that any "God" would allow a man/woman to spend their entire lives devoutly living their faith only to damn them to eternal hell because they didn't guess correctly. Yet guess is what one must do.
#64. To: sizzlerguy (#62)
That's just it, our "destination" after we die is a never ending "mystery," like a "saga."
#65. To: Liberator (#64)
trading that '63 Vette you'd already "won" for a tiny gift-wrapped box, hoping for a wad of billion dollar bills.
#66. To: all (#0)
Let me get this straight.
#67. To: Liberator (#44)
(Edited)
Hitchens says we're an accident - and even if we aren't, God's a Liar.
#68. To: Brian S (#0)
(Edited)
they teach that sins can be forgiven by throwing them on to a scapegoat -- a positively wicked doctrine
#69. To: Brian S (#0)
Barack H. Obama . => U.S. DOOMED ...... J. A. Carter, (#3 Son)
#70. To: Liberator (#57)
It is no wonder people turn their backs on this sham called Christianity. Look at those who claim to be Christians today. The majority are blood dancing sociopaths filled with hate and loathing for their fellow man. Just read the comments of the proclaimed Christians on TOS2. Sweetjustice, Bob Celeste, David Ben Ariel, JoeSnuffy, rifle22. These people can't get enough of other people's blood. They want to kill, kill, kill everyone and everything.
#71. To: Sam Houston, Hayek Fan, Brian (#17)
Very well stated.
Barack H. Obama . => U.S. DOOMED ...... J. A. Carter, (#3 Son)
#72. To: sizzlerguy, liberator, hayek fan (#58)
Amen, and if "Christ" is a fair and openminded guy, he'll be fair with all of us, when that time comes, who've led good, honest, and clean lives.
#73. To: belmontconservative (#72)
#74. To: sizzlerguy (#73)
This is obviously a "deep" subject which has been on the minds of men for centuries.
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