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Title: WHY CANADIANS ARE LAUGHING AT US
Source: news.yahoo.com
URL Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucrr/200910 ... rr/whycanadiansarelaughingatus
Published: Oct 30, 2009
Author: Richard Reeves
Post Date: 2009-10-30 20:57:26 by Destro
Keywords: Canada
Views: 807
Comments: 63

WHY CANADIANS ARE LAUGHING AT US

By Richard Reeves Richard Reeves

AUSTIN, Texas -- A guy walks up to you in a bar here and asks, "Are you a Republican, conservative or independent?" You can't tell if he's kidding. After all, this is the most liberal place in the state. It's also where I first heard about Shona Holmes, the Canadian lady.

Holmes, a 45-year-old citizen of a place called Waterdown in Ontario, has become the Joan of Arc of the battle against health care reform in the United States. As she tells it, OHIP, the acronym for the "free" (taxes pay for it) Canadian health care system, sentenced her to burn at the stake by putting her on a waiting list for analysis and treatment of what she calls a "brain tumor." Actually, it was a benign cyst near the brain. The technical name is Rathke's cleft cyst, a fluid-filled sac that grows near the pituitary gland. It can be painful and affect vision, but it is not life-threatening.

A group called Patients United Now -- "people just like you," says its Web site -- is sponsoring television commercials featuring Shona Holmes in all 50 states. (I don't know if he is just like me, but an industrialist named David Koch is the principal financier of the Holmes campaign.) She is traveling our country making speeches and television appearances comparing the Canadian system to the Inquisition, saying she would have died waiting to see a doctor in her country. Instead, she says, she mortgaged her house, borrowed from neighbors, crossed the border and had the cyst removed at the Mayo Clinic in Arizona. Cost: $95,000.

She seems to be, right now, the most hated woman in Canada. Newspapers are defending OHIP; bloggers are saying if she doesn't like Canada she can (and should) get out. A few voices are calling for Holmes to be deported. The Ottawa Citizen called her "disgusting."

Canadians apparently love their system. A columnist for the Calgary Sun, Stephen Lautens, attended a conservative forum in Florida and sent back this report:

"When hearing the horrors of the Canadian health-care system being described last weekend, all I could do was wince. ... 'Would (you) like to speak to a real, live Canadian about our health care,' I asked (two ladies in a bar)?

"'Can you pick your own doctor?' was the first question. 'Because we hear the government assigns you a doctor in Canada.'

"You indeed pick your own doctor, I assured them. ... It was also not true, I said, that it takes months to see your doctor. Mine complains she doesn't see me enough. There are gaps in our system, I confessed, where there are unacceptable wait lists for some kinds of surgery -- hips and knees and other things in demand.

"'What's your health-care premium?' they wanted to know. They quoted theirs as being a couple thousand dollars a month. Their jaws dropped when I told them there really isn't one and everyone is covered from birth.

"At this point, a small crowd had gathered around me at the bar to hear the Canadian tell his magical tale of health-care coverage. I told the story of breaking my shoulder in a fall, having one of the best shoulder specialists in Canada put it back together, a few days at the hospital and nine months of physiotherapy. The cost?

"Thirty-five dollars, because the sling I went home in wasn't covered."

The "disgusting" thing from an American perspective is the low level of the health-care debate. Or is it the gullibility of millions of Americans? The Senate Republican leader, Mitch McConnell, along with Fox News, has used the Shona Holmes story to attack health-care reform. True or not, it is interesting stuff, except for one thing: The American reforms being discussed are not at all like the Canadian single-payer system.

So, Canadians, with longer, healthier lives, are yelling at Shona Holmes and laughing at us.


Poster Comment:

This kind of false campaign of half truths has become the standard propaganda tactic for the right these last 8 years. It counts on those these campaigns are aimed at buying the lie by these oligarchs like the Koch family hook, line and sinker.

Another example is to make up horror stories of the UK's socialist health care system which in reality - as bad as it is - the worst in Europe - still produces healthier population than the American system and costs less.

Read it here:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/42717.php

The British Are Much Healthier Than The Americans

Article Date: 03 May 2006 - 8:00 PDT

A large study, which looked at the health of middle class, middle-aged, white residents in both the USA and Britain found that the British enjoy much better health than their American counterparts. Even though the USA has a much higher income per capita than the UK, about 25% higher, the British are far ahead when it comes to the health of its residents.

Americans also spend a great deal more on health care than the British do. The average expenditure per head per year on health in the UK is $2,164, while in the USA it stands at $5,274.

You can read about this study in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), May 3 Issue.

------------------

So I would like to know why the right wing falls for such disinfo campaigns by hidden sources like the Kochs?

Read about the Koch family @ http://exiledonline.com/tea-bagger-closet-cases-then-now-jfk-faced-exact-same-accusations-as-obama/

Koch Family & The Tea Bagger Loonies 1961-2009: JFK Faced Exact Same Crazy Rightwing Billionaire Family As Obama

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#17. To: Destro (#0)

A large study, which looked at the health of middle class, middle-aged, white residents in both the USA and Britain found that the British enjoy much better health than their American counterparts.

Why do you continue to promote that falsehood? The methodology and the conclusions of the study you refer to [ which you never read in the original full text - you only read a summary by another website) has been disputed several times over in JAMA. The study used "self-reported" health - ie. highly subjective material - and another thing, certain segments of the American sampling tended to be more negatively inclined/predisposed/biased, because Americans are demanding and more likely to complain whereas Brits, especially poor Brits, are indoctrinated from birth into accepting mediocrity as being good as long as everyone is in the same boat.

Good grief - at least quote a valid study and one that you actually read - to promote your socialized medicine schtick.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-10-31   2:07:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: scrapper2 (#17)

The study used "self-reported" health - ie. highly subjective material - and another thing, certain segments of the American sampling tended to be more negatively inclined/predisposed/biased, because Americans are demanding and more likely to complain whereas Brits, especially poor Brits, are indoctrinated from birth into accepting mediocrity as being good as long as everyone is in the same boat.

Either you are a liar and saying that as disinfo or you are not smart enough to understand what you read and still try and come off as an expert - I don't know which is a worse condition.

The conditions were first self reported and then checked by laboratory tests. Nor was diet or dentistry a factor.

http://www.slate.com/id/2141648/

Could the difference have been one of interpretation—do American and British men respectively exaggerate or underplay illness? To rule out this possible weakness of self-reporting, Marmot's team considered studies that examined lab test results, so they could objectively corroborate the reports of the patients in their own study. The team found that, in general, for both groups the level of self-reported illness and the laboratory findings closely matched. (For instance, in England, self-reporting of diabetes was 8 percent higher than diabetes confirmed by laboratory testing, while in the United States, the self- reported rate was 11 percent higher.) So, both self-reporting and lab results suggest the same thing: British men appear to be significantly less likely to suffer from chronic disease than similar Americans.

There are many ways in which these results are not at all what one would expect. For instance, the United States spends a great deal more on health care than England does—2.4 times as much per capita. And other differences like the terrible state of British dentistry also ought to weigh in Americans' favor. It's long been suspected that dental and oral infections play a role in promoting heart disease and possibly stroke. Tooth loss can lead to poor nutrition and social isolation among the elderly, which increase the risk for illness and early death.

So, how do we account for the apparent better health of Englishmen? This study shows that the answer doesn't relate to race or ethnicity. The researchers also showed that neither smoking (Brits and Americans smoke in about equal numbers) nor overeating (Americans do this more than Brits) nor heavy drinking (here the Brits have the edge) could account for the difference.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-31   12:34:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Destro, mirage (#22)

You are a dolt of the highest order. You still have not bothered to go to the study itself.

Btw, only one of the authors is an M.D., 2 are employed by a UK institute for "Fiscal Studies", and a 3rd is employed by the Rand Corp. Just sayin'....

www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=RAND_Corporation

Here's what is stated in the MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE and CONCLUSION of the May 03/2006 study done by James Banks, PhD; Michael Marmot, M.D.; Zoe Oldfield, MSc; James P. Smith, PhD

Main Outcome Measure: Self-reported prevalence rates of several chronic diseases related to diabetes and heart disease, adjusted for age and health behavior risk factors, were compared between the 2 countries and across education and income classes within each country.

Conclusion Based on self-reported illnesses and biological markers of disease, US residents are much less healthy than their English counterparts and these differences exist at all points of the SES distribution.

Postscript: there are a number of studies that dispute the validity of using "self-reported" health - do the PubMed search or Google thingie - I'm weary of playing games with a socialist groupie like yourself.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-10-31   13:11:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: scrapper2 (#24)

Conclusion Based on self-reported illnesses and biological markers of disease, US residents are much less healthy than their English counterparts and these differences exist at all points of the SES distribution.

You keep repeating that lie over when clearly the report states:

So, both self-reporting and lab results suggest the same thing: British men appear to be significantly less likely to suffer from chronic disease than similar Americans.

You have no response other than to denegrate the source - something the failed American right wing bots fall back to as a response.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-31   16:36:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Destro (#26)

You keep repeating that lie over when clearly the report states:

So, both self-reporting and lab results suggest the same thing: British men appear to be significantly less likely to suffer from chronic disease than similar Americans.

You have no response other than to denegrate the source - something the failed American right wing bots fall back to as a response.

You really are so thick I can't believe I'm actually trying to have an adult reasoned conversation with you about a report that purports to be scientifically sound but uses "self-reported health" as its "MAIN Outcome Measure" to reach sweeping conclusions in comparing the health of a sampling of people in 2 different nations. And for your information, lab test markers do not = disease.

If you can't open your mind to what I point out, here's something from the Am. J. Epidemiol. Salomon et al. 170 (3): 343 that discusses the inherent flaws and anomalies of using self-health reporting in comparative health studies.

aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/170/3/343

"Are Americans Feeling Less Healthy? The Puzzle of Trends in Self-rated Health"

scrapper2  posted on  2009-10-31   17:29:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: scrapper2 (#28)

about a report that purports to be scientifically sound but uses "self-reported health" as its "MAIN Outcome Measure"

The survey uses BOTH the self reported - and then they corroborated that with laboratory testing. How can you say lab tests don't confirm diabetes, etc? You just made that crap up because this survey threatens your talking points and you are grabbing at straws.

Could the difference have been one of interpretation—do American and British men respectively exaggerate or underplay illness? To rule out this possible weakness of self-reporting, Marmot's team considered studies that examined lab test results, so they could objectively corroborate the reports of the patients in their own study. The team found that, in general, for both groups the level of self-reported illness and the laboratory findings closely matched. (For instance, in England, self- reporting of diabetes was 8 percent higher than diabetes confirmed by laboratory testing, while in the United States, the self-reported rate was 11 percent higher.) So, both self-reporting and lab results suggest the same thing: British men appear to be significantly less likely to suffer from chronic disease than similar Americans.

Destro  posted on  2009-10-31   20:36:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Destro (#30) (Edited)

The survey uses BOTH the self reported - and then they corroborated that with laboratory testing. How can you say lab tests don't confirm diabetes, etc? You just made that crap up because this survey threatens your talking points and you are grabbing at straws.

Look, I'm going to spell it out for you as clearly and as simply as I can so you can hopefully comprehend....The authors of the report you continue to flog on 4um [ albeit not actually having read the report, I might add] draws sweeping conclusions about the quality of health care in the UK vs the USA by COMPARING SELF-REPORTED HEALTH from 2 sample groups of Brits and Americans.

Who cares if the 2 groups had similar lab markers? That was done to narrow down the sampling WHOSE OPINIONS they were going to survey. Lab test markers do not measure health care services. Lab result markers aren't even a comprehensive measure of disease, as I noted earlier but that's another story that's neither here nor there for the purposes of discussion of the main flaw of this report. Survival rates, for example, for various disease are good measures of health care [and fyi, the USA is numero uno disease survival rates] but lab markers are not. And certainly self-reported health is not.

Don't you get it? The authors used HIGHLY SUBJECTIVE DATA [ self-reported health] as their MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE to reach their conclusions about 2 national health care systems making their study unscientific and irrelevant.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-01   16:25:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: scrapper2 (#44)

No, you say it is subjective because it goes against your Rush Limbough, Sean Hannity world view. Deny it all you can but if piss poor England's health care beats our performance record then America is a third world banana republic.

Destro  posted on  2009-11-01   21:03:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Destro, mirage, christine, Jethro Tull, Prefrontal Vortex, Original_Intent, Brian S, All (#46)

No, you say it is subjective because it goes against your Rush Limbough, Sean Hannity world view. Deny it all you can but if piss poor England's health care beats our performance record then America is a third world banana republic.

Really? So you believe England's health care "beats our performance record?"

"Disease outcomes" — how people fare after diagnosis - is the only valid and accurate way to measure "performance" of health care systems - and the US tops not only the UK but also the US beats all the health care systems of Euro nations and Canada re: survival rates for potentially lethal cancer diseases. [ ditto for superior survival rates for US patients after heart attacks and strokes].

A broad cancer survival rate review of Euro nations and the US was published in the September 2007 issue of Lancet Oncology - here's a summary of the findings:

www.ncpa.org/pub/ba596/

"U.S. Cancer Care Is Number One" 10/11/07

Some cut and paste:

Overall Cancer Survival Rates. According to the survey of cancer survival rates in Europe and the United States, published recently in Lancet Oncology :

* American women have a 63 percent chance of living at least five years after a cancer diagnosis, compared to 56 percent for European women.

* American men have a five-year survival rate of 66 percent — compared to only 47 percent for European men.

* Among European countries, only Sweden has an overall survival rate for men of more than 60 percent.

* For women, only three European countries (Sweden, Belgium and Switzerland) have an overall survival rate of more than 60 percent.

These figures reflect the care available to all Americans, not just those with private health coverage. Great Britain, known for its 50-year-old government-run, universal health care system, fares worse than the European average: British men have a five-year survival rate of only 45 percent; women, only 53 percent.

Survival Rates for Specific Cancers: U.S. survival rates are higher than the average in Europe for 13 of 16 types of cancer reported in Lancet Oncology , confirming the results of previous studies.

* Of cancers that affect primarily men, the survival rate among Americans for bladder cancer is 15 percentage points higher than the European average; for prostate cancer, it is 28 percentage points higher.

* Of cancers that affect women only, the survival rate among Americans for uterine cancer is about 5 percentage points higher than the European average; for breast cancer, it is 14 percentage points higher.

* The United States has survival rates of 90 percent or higher for five cancers (skin melanoma, breast, prostate, thyroid and testicular), but there is only one cancer for which the European survival rate reaches 90 percent (testicular).

Furthermore, the Lancet Oncology study found that lung cancer patients in the United States have the best chance of surviving five years — about 16 percent — whereas patients in Great Britain have only an 8 percent chance, which is lower than the European average of 11 percent.

U.S. Cancer Care Is Number One.

Results for Canada. Canada's system of national health insurance is often cited as a model for the United States. But an analysis of 2001 to 2003 data by June O'Neill, former director of the Congressional Budget Office, and economist David O'Neill, found that overall cancer survival rates are higher in the United States than in Canada:

* For women, the average survival rate for all cancers is 61 percent in the United States, compared to 58 percent in Canada.

* For men, the average survival rate for all cancers is 57 percent in the United States, compared to 53 percent in Canada.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-02   16:18:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: scrapper2, mirage, christine, Jethro Tull, Prefrontal Vortex, Original_Intent, Brian S (#58)

http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=109632&Disp=1#C1

A new research study, just published in the American Journal of Public Health, provides a rather stark comparison between the health status of rich and poor adults in the United States and Europe. In this study, more than 17,000 adults between the ages of 50 and 74 years were interviewed from among 10 European countries. Nearly 7,000 Americans of similar age were also interviewed for this study. The researchers assessed these 24,000 middle-aged and elderly adults for 6 chronic illnesses that are commonly accepted as indicators of the overall health of a society.

In general, the American adults reported poorer overall health than their European counterparts. While the differences in health between the two groups of adults were, not surprisingly, more pronounced among poorer patients, even the wealthier Americans reported more problems with their health when compared to wealthy Europeans. At the same time, the gap in health status between rich and poor was much smaller among Europeans than was observed among the American patients who participated in this study. (As a striking example of the health disparities between Americans and Europeans, heart disease, the number one cause of death in most developed countries, was present in 18 percent of Americans, but in only 11 percent of Europeans, in this study.)

Destro  posted on  2009-11-02   16:44:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Destro (#60)

heart disease

Heart disease is mostly indicative of diet. Please tell me how a Nationalized Healthcare System will correct that.

mirage  posted on  2009-11-03   1:42:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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